NationStates Jolt Archive

The Constitutional Militia Movement consists of citizen groups who espouse strict construction of the U.S. Constitution according to the original understanding and intent of the Founding Fathers of the United States, especially in regard to the right to keep and bear arms (see Second Amendment to the United States Constitution). Constitutional Militias train in the proper and safe use of firearms, that they may be effective if called upon to uphold liberty, protect the people in times of crisis (i.e. disasters such as Hurricane Katrina), or to defend against invasion and terrorism. U.S. Constitution, Art. I Sec. 8 Cl. 15 & 16.

According to Title 10, USC, Section 311, all able bodied males between the ages of 17 and 45 not serving in the armed forces or state national guard units are considered the unorganized militia, as well as all commissioned female officers of state national guard units.

.~wiki
Ok this is not a question about gun control.Is it possible to call up an unorganised militia to defend against terrorisim ? Ie. Get the draft in the back door so to speak?I am curious since the mandate of other militias(National Guard), seems to have been changed to suit the current administration trying to achieve its goals abroad?

The militia, in the context of the USC code, is not the same as the draft. The draft is a quasi-mandatory event; should I receive a summons, I have to go down the recruitment office and have them do a physical and whatnot, however, they cannot force me to sign any papers. That's how Ali got out of the draft (that, and he claimed his religion forbade him).

Should a call go out to form a militia, under the USC code, the people do not have to respond. I could, for whatever reason, say at home, doing whatever, and there's not a damn thing that the government could do about it.

Is it possible to call up an unorganised militia to defend against terrorisim ?

Only if said terrorists have an occupying force on American soil. Militias typically do not operate outside of their home region, and never outside of American soil (the NY militias in the War of 1812 refused to follow the regular army to Canada).

The militia, in the context of the USC code, is not the same as the draft. The draft is a quasi-mandatory event; should I receive a summons, I have to go down the recruitment office and have them do a physical and whatnot, however, they cannot force me to sign any papers. That's how Ali got out of the draft (that, and he claimed his religion forbade him).

Should a call go out to form a militia, under the USC code, the people do not have to respond. I could, for whatever reason, say at home, doing whatever, and there's not a damn thing that the government could do about it.



Only if said terrorists have an occupying force on American soil. Militias typically do not operate outside of their home region, and never outside of American soil (the NY militias in the War of 1812 refused to follow the regular army to Canada).

Thanks for clearing some of that up.I am not an american myself.Was looking for some info about the US national guard system when I came on that.I did assume though that the draft was mandatory.I porbably got the shitty end of the stick on that one.

Ok this is not a question about gun control.Is it possible to call up an unorganised militia to defend against terrorisim ? Ie. Get the draft in the back door so to speak?I am curious since the mandate of other militias(National Guard), seems to have been changed to suit the current administration trying to achieve its goals abroad?

Actually the current administration has not changed the mandate of the current militias( ie National Guard). The current National Guard was set up as it is today By the Militia Act of 1903.....which set how it was to be armed, trained, paid, and how it could be used by both the state and federal gov't. It was set up as a reserve to the US Army, and later Air Force , after the debacle of the militias in the Spanish American war.

So please do not try to blame yet another thing on the current administration......they have enough already without being blamed for things they have not done. But I have heard it is the current administrations fault the North is not getting enough snow.

The likelihood of the United States initiating a draft to fight terrorism (that is, if military officials have their way) is slim, at best. To my knowledge, eligable potential draftees would be from the ages of 18 to 32, as a new piece of legislation that eludes me for the moment has declared in 2006.

Anyway, why do military officials not want a draft? Because a draft means enlisting people who don't want to be there. The less willing a military is, the less effective it is, and that is something that no military officer wants. A voluntary army is much more willing to serve their country than a drafted one, hypothedically speaking. The acclaimed "mercenary" army would also tend to be more disciplined, intelligent (there are tests involved in joining), and skilled in their position.

Also, I would need the actual source of this information to directly comment on it, as I doubt wiki often, due to the vast amount of people allowed to edit those things. As to your question, I highly doubt any Congressional body would be dull-witted enough to call a draft for such an intangible and undefined purpose. If they chose to call a draft to inlist aid against ever increasing numbers of Islamic radicalists and other militants, I think it would also be highly unlikely (as it is hard to partake in organized battle with the tactics the world has come to see of such "terrorists", especially within the United States).

Effectively, while it could happen, the politician(s) who call(s) for it is committing political suicide and would have to be insane or incredibly dim-witted to do so. Calling for a militia to form is equally as suicidal, and would be as effective as calling a crusade against the unbelievers of the Middle East.

Thanks for clearing some of that up.I am not an american myself.Was looking for some info about the US national guard system when I came on that.I did assume though that the draft was mandatory.I porbably got the shitty end of the stick on that one.

They have what they call the "Selective Service" in the US. Basically, males 18+ register in case there is a draft. It's almost never enforced though.

Ok this is not a question about gun control.Is it possible to call up an unorganised militia to defend against terrorisim ? Ie. Get the draft in the back door so to speak?I am curious since the mandate of other militias(National Guard), seems to have been changed to suit the current administration trying to achieve its goals abroad?

The National Guard is not the militia. The Guard is a paid part of the US military.

If the militia is called up, they are under the command of the President.

They are called up by Congress

US Constitution, Article I, Section 8, Clause 15; "To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions."

The National Guard is not the militia. The Guard is a paid part of the US military.

If the militia is called up, they are under the command of the President.

They are called up by Congress

US Constitution, Article I, Section 8, Clause 15; "To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions."

Actually the National Guard in technicality is the Militia....refer to Militia Act of 1903 for the details.

Actually the National Guard in technicality is the Militia....refer to Militia Act of 1903 for the details.

The Guard is part of the militia, but not the whole thing.

MICHIGAN MILITARY ACT (EXCERPT)
Act 150 of 1967


32.509 State military establishment; composition; organized and unorganized militia.

Sec. 109.

The organized militia of this state taken collectively shall be known as the state military establishment and constitutes the armed forces of this state. The organized militia consists of the army national guard, the air national guard, and the defense force when actually in existence as provided in this act. The unorganized militia consists of all other able-bodied citizens of this state and all other able-bodied citizens who are residents of this state who have or shall have declared their intention to become citizens of the United States, who shall be age 17 or over and not more than age 60, and shall be subject to state military duty as provided in this act.

The Guard is part of the militia, but not the whole thing.

[quote]The organized militia of this state taken collectively shall be known as the state military establishment and constitutes the armed forces of this state. The organized militia consists of the army national guard, the air national guard, and the defense force when actually in existence as provided in this act. The unorganized militia consists of all other able-bodied citizens of this state and all other able-bodied citizens who are residents of this state who have or shall have declared their intention to become citizens of the United States, who shall be age 17 or over and not more than age 60, and shall be subject to state military duty as provided in this act. [/qoute]
So can a state militia be called up for active service abroad or just domesticaly.

Thanks for clearing some of that up.I am not an american myself.Was looking for some info about the US national guard system when I came on that.I did assume though that the draft was mandatory.I porbably got the shitty end of the stick on that one.

The draft is mandatory. If you don't report you are AWOL (absent without leave) and subject to jail. That's why in the Vietnam war the draft dodgers went to Canada. They were later given amnesty if they would do alternative public service. As for Ali, he claimed exemption as a minister in Islam. Being a minister was automatically a CO exemption (Conscientious Objector). Depending on what religion you belonged to some were given automatic CO just because they belonged to certain denominations. Ali's court case lasted longer than the war and eventually was dismissed.

Right now, without a draft (now called "selective service" for semantic reasons) 18 year old males are required to sign up, which means filling out a card at the Post Office. If they don't they are not eligible for any government services, student loans, etc. I think they can also be prosecuted but haven't heard of a case where that happened.

Except for the radical 2nd amendment people, it is commonly accepted that the national guard is the militia. It is theoretically under the command of the state governor. Normally the guard is only called out for internal disasters. (floods, tornados, earthquakes, riots, and anywhere else the police need extra help) The Feds can call it up for national emergencies, but until Bush, that wasn't normal.

The "informal militia" thing goes back to the "old west" days when the local sheriff could draft anyone off the street to be in a posse. Even today in most states a policeman can stop your car and demand you drive him somewhere in a law enforcement function. I don't know the last time it was used. With radios today they can call for official back-up. But in the old days they could demand anything in order to enforce the law or catch a criminal. Including, demanding that you bring your horse and gun and go along.

Except for the radical 2nd amendment people, it is commonly accepted that the national guard is the militia. It is theoretically under the command of the state governor. Normally the guard is only called out for internal disasters. (floods, tornados, earthquakes, riots, and anywhere else the police need extra help) The Feds can call it up for national emergencies, but until Bush, that wasn't normal.

The NG is part of the Militia as per US code but not the entirety..

Actually the current administration has not changed the mandate of the current militias( ie National Guard). The current National Guard was set up as it is today By the Militia Act of 1903.....which set how it was to be armed, trained, paid, and how it could be used by both the state and federal gov't. It was set up as a reserve to the US Army, and later Air Force , after the debacle of the militias in the Spanish American war.

So please do not try to blame yet another thing on the current administration......they have enough already without being blamed for things they have not done. But I have heard it is the current administrations fault the North is not getting enough snow.

The national guard is a federally owned, federally operated machine that is temporarily under state control. The Federal Government can have it whenever it wants.

Militias are under direct control of the state, and noone else.

Ok this is not a question about gun control.Is it possible to call up an unorganised militia to defend against terrorisim ? Ie. Get the draft in the back door so to speak?I am curious since the mandate of other militias(National Guard), seems to have been changed to suit the current administration trying to achieve its goals abroad?

It's not a back door. The people have been the militia since day one of the Republic. However, with the caliber (Pun intended) of many of today's people I don't want them as the unorganized militia.

I think the best option would be to organize them, set uniformity on weapons, gear etc, train them like the national guard, but place them completely under the control of the state.

There are some uses to them, terrorism wise. Granted, they aren't SWAT-capable (Although they could be) but they can provide security, etc.

However, the big idea that would kill it is LIABILITY. People are sue-happy.

The Guard is part of the militia, but not the whole thing.

No wonder it's called Militiagan ;) !


Ever hear of the michigan militia? Heard they're big up there. It's the same group that kicked out Timothy Mcveigh for being too radical...

AFAIK, you´re only drafted by the militias in case of zombie outbrake.

No wonder it's called Militiagan ;) !


Ever hear of the michigan militia? Heard they're big up there. It's the same group that kicked out Timothy Mcveigh for being too radical...

I thought that was the Montana Militia? *shrugs* Waco, Ruby Ridge, and Oklahoma City did a lot of PR damage to militias, the vast, vast majority of which wouldn't do a thing like the above.

I think the best option would be to organize them, set uniformity on weapons, gear etc, train them like the national guard, but place them completely under the control of the state.

If I recall correctly, if the militia is called into service, they have the right to nominate/elect their own officers, but the regular military could arm and train them. Not too certain if an Army major or above could order the militia as part of an overall strategy in the region.

Ok this is not a question about gun control.Is it possible to call up an unorganised militia to defend against terrorisim ? Ie. Get the draft in the back door so to speak?I am curious since the mandate of other militias(National Guard), seems to have been changed to suit the current administration trying to achieve its goals abroad?

The people of the United States are free to form Militias, such as the ones in Michigan or in other states (most prevalent in the Mid-West to North Pacific States). These however, cannot be called upon to active duty as they are not official Government run organzations.

I hope this answer's your question.

Except for the radical 2nd amendment people, it is commonly accepted that the national guard is the militia. It is theoretically under the command of the state governor. Normally the guard is only called out for internal disasters. (floods, tornados, earthquakes, riots, and anywhere else the police need extra help) The Feds can call it up for national emergencies, but until Bush, that wasn't normal.

The "informal militia" thing goes back to the "old west" days when the local sheriff could draft anyone off the street to be in a posse. Even today in most states a policeman can stop your car and demand you drive him somewhere in a law enforcement function. I don't know the last time it was used. With radios today they can call for official back-up. But in the old days they could demand anything in order to enforce the law or catch a criminal. Including, demanding that you bring your horse and gun and go along.

The constitution was drafted in 1787, ratified in 1789, with the BoR ratified in 1791. The Militia Act of 1903 (which created the National Guard) didn't exist until 1903.

Therefore, how could the National Guard be the militia that the 2nd amendment refers to?

I think the best option would be to organize them, set uniformity on weapons, gear etc, ....

Well, as far as standardization of weapon, my AR-15 can use the same magazines, ammunition, and many of the same accessories as the military standard M-16. :D

OTOH, I have very little in the way of support gear (uniforms, ALICE/MOLLE pack, etc). :(

I thought that was the Montana Militia? *shrugs* Waco, Ruby Ridge, and Oklahoma City did a lot of PR damage to militias, the vast, vast majority of which wouldn't do a thing like the above.



If I recall correctly, if the militia is called into service, they have the right to nominate/elect their own officers, but the regular military could arm and train them. Not too certain if an Army major or above could order the militia as part of an overall strategy in the region.

No. Mcveigh joined the Michigan militia and was promptly kicked out after a few meetings.

True. However, chances are they would want to have an experianced leader. I know I would.

The constitution was drafted in 1787, ratified in 1789, with the BoR ratified in 1791. The Militia Act of 1903 (which created the National Guard) didn't exist until 1903.

Therefore, how could the National Guard be the militia that the 2nd amendment refers to?



Well, as far as standardization of weapon, my AR-15 can use the same magazines, ammunition, and many of the same accessories as the military standard M-16. :D

OTOH, I have very little in the way of support gear (uniforms, ALICE/MOLLE pack, etc). :(

I've got an LC1 belt and Chicom SKS vest, that's it. Works fine when hunting with the SKS, that's it. Need to get a nice vest for the AK and Ar15.

The people of the United States are free to form Militias, such as the ones in Michigan or in other states (most prevalent in the Mid-West to North Pacific States). These however, cannot be called upon to active duty as they are not official Government run organzations.

I hope this answer's your question.

The state governor can call up the militia.

Except for the radical 2nd amendment people, it is commonly accepted that the national guard is the militia. It is theoretically under the command of the state governor. Normally the guard is only called out for internal disasters. (floods, tornados, earthquakes, riots, and anywhere else the police need extra help) The Feds can call it up for national emergencies, but until Bush, that wasn't normal.

Actually that is not true the NG was not set up for internal disasters. The guard was set up to 1) be the states Military and 2) to be a part of the US Army and later Air Force reserve. The Guard has actually been activated and deployed to foreign wars by more Democrats then Republicans. But you are answering this question as a Bush hater and taking it as a chance to bash him not just to explain the National Guard system as a poster who wanted information posted it for. Why is it people always have to turn these threads into a forum for bashing the Republicans? Personally I do not trust politicians from either party because they all lie and care not about the people but about their own agendas.

But yes the Governor is in charge of the Guard until they are federalized....then they fall under the President. Officers in the Guard hold two commissions one state and one federal. This was all set up officially in 1903 and adjusted and updated again in 1916 when the number of drills was changed from 24 and 5 days annual training to 48 and 15 days annual training. The federal gov't undertook to train and equip them the same as the active military and to pay them the same as well this allowed for a redress of the old militia system which failed horribly in 1898 during the spanish American war.

The constitution was drafted in 1787, ratified in 1789, with the BoR ratified in 1791. The Militia Act of 1903 (which created the National Guard) didn't exist until 1903.

Therefore, how could the National Guard be the militia that the 2nd amendment refers to?

:(


The militias refered to in the second were "well regulated" by the state. In other words they were a universal draft where the able bodied men got together and trained under the regulation of the state and could be called up by the state officials in times when needed.

So you have two choices:

First choice; Since we don't have such a universal draft, nor do we have state regulation and training for such a group, the second is the same as the one about quartering troops. Historically dead.

The second choice; There is still a group that is "well regulated" by the state. There is a group that trains regularly under the governor of the state. There is a group that can be and is called up by the governor in times of emergency. That group isn't a gun club running around in the woods with "no regulation" the second demands "well regulation" not "no regulation". The group that qualifies for this type of militia is the National Guard.

So you have a choice of no militia or the National Guard. I don't care which you choose.

Ok this is not a question about gun control.Is it possible to call up an unorganised militia to defend against terrorisim ? Ie. Get the draft in the back door so to speak?I am curious since the mandate of other militias(National Guard), seems to have been changed to suit the current administration trying to achieve its goals abroad?

Theoretically yes, anyone can be called upon to aid law enforcement. In practice why would the government want untrained people getting in the way?

When it comes to "militia" we get out of military and law enforcement and into communications theory. What does a word mean? A word can be used by any group to mean anything. So anyone can run around in the woods and call themselves a "militia" and understand the meaning to be whatever they want it to be within the group. However; What the government considers a "militia" is defined as a "well regulated" group that is available for "national defense". Under that semantic interpretation, and under the possibility of the government ever calling up some gun club running around in the woods, any random group is NOT a militia. The only "militia" now recognized by anyone in authority that is "well regulated" and readily available as part of the "national defense" is the National Guard.

In the past the Guard was used by the states for local control, and by the Feds during times of major war. They also filled in until enough regular troops could get trained in minor wars, but were not considered a part of the regular army and served for limited time, not regular rotation.

Theoretically yes, anyone can be called upon to aid law enforcement. In practice why would the government want untrained people getting in the way?

When it comes to "militia" we get out of military and law enforcement and into communications theory. What does a word mean? A word can be used by any group to mean anything. So anyone can run around in the woods and call themselves a "militia" and understand the meaning to be whatever they want it to be within the group. However; What the government considers a "militia" is defined as a "well regulated" group that is available for "national defense". Under that semantic interpretation, and under the possibility of the government ever calling up some gun club running around in the woods, any random group is NOT a militia. The only "militia" now recognized by anyone in authority that is "well regulated" and readily available as part of the "national defense" is the National Guard.

In the past the Guard was used by the states for local control, and by the Feds during times of major war. They also filled in until enough regular troops could get trained in minor wars, but were not considered a part of the regular army and served for limited time, not regular rotation.

Actually that is not true......as this excert from Wikipedias Charter of the National Guard shows.....

Many states also maintain their own State Defense Forces. These forces are federally recognized, but are separate from the National Guard and are not meant to be federalized, but rather service the state exclusively, especially when the National Guard is deployed and unavailable.

The federal government recognizes State Defense Forces under 32 USC 109 which provides that State Defense Forces "may not be called, ordered, or drafted into the armed forces" (of the United States), thus preserving their separation from the National Guard.

Although every state has laws authorizing State Defense Forces, approximately twenty-five states, in addition to Puerto Rico, currently have active State Defense Forces, each with different levels of activity, state support, and strength. SDFs generally operate with emergency management and homeland security missions. Most SDFs are organized as Army units, but Air Force and naval units (distinct from naval militias) also exist.



So see there is still in some states a Militia that is not part of the Guard.

The militias refered to in the second were "well regulated" by the state. In other words they were a universal draft where the able bodied men got together and trained under the regulation of the state and could be called up by the state officials in times when needed.

So you have two choices:

First choice; Since we don't have such a universal draft, nor do we have state regulation and training for such a group, the second is the same as the one about quartering troops. Historically dead.

The second choice; There is still a group that is "well regulated" by the state. There is a group that trains regularly under the governor of the state. There is a group that can be and is called up by the governor in times of emergency. That group isn't a gun club running around in the woods with "no regulation" the second demands "well regulation" not "no regulation". The group that qualifies for this type of militia is the National Guard.

So you have a choice of no militia or the National Guard. I don't care which you choose.

Well regulated, in the time and context of the second amendment was written, means well equipped, not well controlled. The militia is defined as:

Title 10 U.S.C. 311. Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are -

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

Without militias the US would have been occupied by UN forces who are secretly stationed in the national parks.

Theoretically yes, anyone can be called upon to aid law enforcement. In practice why would the government want untrained people getting in the way?

When it comes to "militia" we get out of military and law enforcement and into communications theory. What does a word mean? A word can be used by any group to mean anything. So anyone can run around in the woods and call themselves a "militia" and understand the meaning to be whatever they want it to be within the group. However; What the government considers a "militia" is defined as a "well regulated" group that is available for "national defense". Under that semantic interpretation, and under the possibility of the government ever calling up some gun club running around in the woods, any random group is NOT a militia. The only "militia" now recognized by anyone in authority that is "well regulated" and readily available as part of the "national defense" is the National Guard.

In the past the Guard was used by the states for local control, and by the Feds during times of major war. They also filled in until enough regular troops could get trained in minor wars, but were not considered a part of the regular army and served for limited time, not regular rotation.

You can make up all the terms and definitions you want. It doesn't change the fact that by US law and by the majority of state constitutions, the NG is not the entirety of the militia. How many more times does the USC 10 need to be posted?

So see there is still in some states a Militia that is not part of the Guard.

Such as the Michigan Volunteer Defense Force. I'm thinking about checking these guys out when I get back from France in June. Since I'm prior service I'm sure they could find something for me to help out with.

http://www.mivdf.org/

Ever hear of the michigan militia? Heard they're big up there. It's the same group that kicked out Timothy Mcveigh for being too radical...

They're not big anymore. Their founder moved up to Alaska after deciding the people of Michigan weren't "committed" enough. In the 90s when people were afraid of black helicopters and a UN invasion they were kinda big, but not as big as they are made out to have been. I knew a few people who were in the militia for a little while, but decided they were a bunch of paranoid shitheads. I do remember reading in the paper that one group of the Militia was up in Clare charging people $5 to fire a .50 rifle at tax forms, but that's about all they do these days as far as I know. I do know that the State Police and Guard keep a close eye on them, or at least did in the 90s when my grandpa worked in Lansing in the Guard.

So can a state militia be called up for active service abroad or just domesticaly.

That depends on exactly what organization we're talking about. When you enlist in the National Guard (we'll say the Michigan Army National Guard, which is a distinct state-owned organization) you also enlist in the Army National Guard of the United States which is a different organization. This is how they get around the militia clause in Article 1 Sec 8 of the Constitution. From the Supreme Court decision in Perpich v. Department of Defense link (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=496&invol=334)

Since 1933 all persons who have enlisted in a State National Guard unit have simultaneously enlisted in the National Guard of the United States. In the latter capacity they became a part of the Enlisted Reserve Corps of the Army, but unless and until ordered to active duty in the Army, they retained their status as members of a separate State Guard unit. Under the 1933 Act, they could be ordered into active service whenever Congress declared a national emergency and authorized the use of troops in excess of those in the Regular Army.

So yes, the US can call out the National Guard whenever they want since they are part of a Federal organization. However, the US cannot call the state militia out unless it's in accordance with Article 1 Sec 8 of the Constitution which says Congress has the power to:

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

Although I believe that the militia can only be called up by the Federal government with the consent of the state. Things like the Michigan Volunteer Defense Force cannot be called up by the Federal government because they are a state military unit and are wholly owned and operated by the state.