NationStates Jolt Archive

Okay, I didn't mean to sound that excited, because, well, I am not.

This year my kid is finally old enough to participate in the homeschool science fair, and so I go to the website to look and find this.........

Goals:

1. See the consistency and detail of God's creation

2. Apply scriptural lessons, truths, principles to science topics

3. Provide more than a science test can offer; variety, hands-on experience, thinking and reasoning, application and enjoyment

4. Teach the scientific method

5. Integrate all the academics: reading, writing, spiritual application, science facts, math, drawing conclusions, art, graphing, typing reports, oral presentation and time management





had I researched it before hand I wouldn't have told her about it.

I really thought that point 4 was the actual point of a science fair......I mean I remember that in school, that's what we put on our boards, the whole little process.

I guess I will have to start a secular homeschool science fair, if I can find anyone to attend, or I could just let her be a rebel and do her science project the right way.


so, what do you think about the "goals"? did you do science fairs when you were in school? what was your favorite project?

How do you apply scriptural lessons to a science project?

Try to see improperly mixing household chemicals could have led to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah?

How do you apply scriptural lessons to a science project?

Try to see improperly mixing household chemicals could have led to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah?

I have no idea, none of the experiments we thought of doing had any scriptural backing........except for a few involving humans, we could use those proverbs about being stupid.

Why do I suspect they consider #4 to be the least important of the list?

How do you apply scriptural lessons to a science project?

Try to see improperly mixing household chemicals could have led to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah?

Nice! *writes it down*

Two of my favorites in elementary school: "The Sun is a star!" and "Moving Water Erodes Rocks!"

I was a boring child.

Isn't it nice to see " Teach the scientific method" at number 4, behind showing gods creation and scriptual lessons. Do you have the link to the site?

Isn't it nice to see " Teach the scientific method" at number 4, behind showing gods creation and scriptual lessons. Do you have the link to the site?

yep, I do.

http://www.coe.ou.edu/asce/Science_Fair/SF%20webpg_2005.htm

what on earth is happening over there

I actually voted seriously in a multiple poll thread.

I think the goals are good, except maybe numero two. I have a hard time understanding how that is going to work.

As for my science fair, I did an experiment testing various popsicles bridge structures for strength.

Have her do a project on Darwin and evolution. ;)

Seriously though, those goals scare me. They take away the whole idea of a science fair (namely doing science hands on) just to add in religious claptrap.

Oh, my favorite project was when I managed to refine oil to gas in the 5th grade. It wasn't very good gas, but it ran the lawnmower for a bit.

what on earth is happening over there

there is a big assumption that all homeschoolers are Christian, and I am, but this is ridiculous.

Build a dome using biblical measurements of Pi=3.

3.All exhibits must include scripture and give reference pertaining to the subject matter of the project. Some ideas are not specifically mentioned in the Bible, but there are some verses that develop principles that can be related to your project. The intent is to relate all areas of science to the Creator of the universe

Interesting...

yep, I do.

http://www.coe.ou.edu/asce/Science_Fair/SF%20webpg_2005.htm

WHOA,wait, this isn't some local little church thingie, this is the American Society of Civil Engineers???!!!

:eek: :eek: :eek:

:mad: :(

there is a big assumption that all homeschoolers are Christian, and I am, but this is ridiculous.

well they need to think again

I'm as much a fan of studying natural theology (not that ID crap, NT is totally different) as anyone, but that belongs in philosophy rather than science. Science is supposed to teach, well, science...scripture doesn't feature in to it, no matter how interesting such a synthesis might be in a philosophical context.

And it really seems like the first two steps seem to be a little random and don't fit with the other three.

I guess I should say my favorite experiment, when I was in the 5th grade I built two small enclosures one using a solar powered fan and the other using an electrical fan (using electricity off the grid) and tried to figure out which used more energy.

I got second prize behind the kid who did 'the pepsi taste test' :mad:

although my dog was happy to have a solar cooled house over the summer.

WHOA,wait, this isn't some local little church thingie, this is the American Society of Civil Engineers???!!!

To be fair, it does say "University" of Oklahoma. Not exactly a place that evokes an image of sophistication...

there is a big assumption that all homeschoolers are Christian, and I am, but this is ridiculous.

Rebel! Do a project on how the Earth is millions of years old!

To be fair, it does say "University" of Oklahoma. Not exactly a place that evokes an image of sophistication...

:( I'm an alumna.

:( I'm an alumna.

That was more a jab at Oklahoma than the university per se. It seems to have taught you the proper declination and feminisation of alumnus, so it can't be all bad.

Rebel! Do a project on how the Earth is millions of years old!

Wait, who exactly are we rebelling against? This sounds like an attempt to troll both creationists and scientists.

Wait, who exactly are we rebelling against? This sounds like an attempt to troll both creationists and scientists.

I am not a troll :(..........or were you talking about him.........or the science fair.........I need a nap. Fass is being nice.....the world is going to end soon.

Fass is being nice.....

It has been known to happen. Not that it's any less of a faux pas on your part to point it out.

It has been known to happen. Not that it's any less of a faux pas on your part to point it out.

:( *apologizes from a respectable distance.*

I am not a troll :(..........or were you talking about him.........or the science fair.........I need a nap. Fass is being nice.....the world is going to end soon.

I was talking about Ifreann's idea that the project should prove the Earth to be millions of years old. YECs say it's 6,000 and scientists have shown it to be 4.5 billion, so he'd actually be targeting both of them.

Fass being nice...:eek:

Well, we've got the gas, now where are the matches?

It has been known to happen. Not that it's any less of a faux pas on your part to point it out.

I've made my share of fox passes in my lifetime...now pass me the champagen.

Wait, who exactly are we rebelling against? This sounds like an attempt to troll both creationists and scientists.

Nah, only the America Society of Civil Engineers.

I was talking about Ifreann's idea that the project should prove the Earth to be millions of years old. YECs say it's 6,000 and scientists have shown it to be 4.5 billion, so he'd actually be targeting both of them.

Are you suggesting that 4.5 billion years can't be expressed in millions?

Are you suggesting that 4.5 billion years can't be expressed in millions?

Everyone knows that typing 4,600 million is hard.

I've made my share of fox passes in my lifetime...now pass me the champagen.

How drôle.

Everyone knows that typing 4,600 million is hard.

And my attempt to cover my ass succeeds.
*vanishes in a puff of smoke*

Oh God NO!! This is giving me flashbacks!! I can't invent anything!! I'm just a kid!! I don't know!! Just tell me what to do!!! I can't think of anything!! *cries*

Are you suggesting that 4.5 billion years can't be expressed in millions?
Why not? The US Government does it all the time for their budget.

Okay, I didn't mean to sound that excited, because, well, I am not.

This year my kid is finally old enough to participate in the homeschool science fair, and so I go to the website to look and find this.........

Goals:

1. See the consistency and detail of God's creation

2. Apply scriptural lessons, truths, principles to science topics

3. Provide more than a science test can offer; variety, hands-on experience, thinking and reasoning, application and enjoyment

4. Teach the scientific method

5. Integrate all the academics: reading, writing, spiritual application, science facts, math, drawing conclusions, art, graphing, typing reports, oral presentation and time management





had I researched it before hand I wouldn't have told her about it.

I really thought that point 4 was the actual point of a science fair......I mean I remember that in school, that's what we put on our boards, the whole little process.

I guess I will have to start a secular homeschool science fair, if I can find anyone to attend, or I could just let her be a rebel and do her science project the right way.


so, what do you think about the "goals"? did you do science fairs when you were in school? what was your favorite project?

never had "science fairs" when i were at school, but mixing god and science at schooling level does seem more than a bit silly.

did plenty of science coursework at school though... my favourite was one i did in physics where i'd decided to test the signal processing abilities of different microphones, or something like that. it was quite interesting, but the reason i really liked it was because i was making so much noise i got to have a whole classroom to myself to do the tests for weeks :D

Okay, I didn't mean to sound that excited, because, well, I am not.

This year my kid is finally old enough to participate in the homeschool science fair, and so I go to the website to look and find this.........

Goals:

1. See the consistency and detail of God's creation

2. Apply scriptural lessons, truths, principles to science topics

3. Provide more than a science test can offer; variety, hands-on experience, thinking and reasoning, application and enjoyment

4. Teach the scientific method

5. Integrate all the academics: reading, writing, spiritual application, science facts, math, drawing conclusions, art, graphing, typing reports, oral presentation and time management





had I researched it before hand I wouldn't have told her about it.

I really thought that point 4 was the actual point of a science fair......I mean I remember that in school, that's what we put on our boards, the whole little process.

I guess I will have to start a secular homeschool science fair, if I can find anyone to attend, or I could just let her be a rebel and do her science project the right way.

so, what do you think about the "goals"?

Goal four is good, goals three and five are fine, but goals one and two are ust insane. :eek:

did you do science fairs when you were in school?

From 5th to 10th grades. I Even got as far as state once.

what was your favorite project?

The insulation experement was the most fun - eight miniature houses with three different types of insulation and two uninsulated controls, to compare the effectiveness was the most fun to actually do.

The fifth grade "The Many Uses of Nuclear Fusion" was the most fun from the how to confuse your classmates.

The variations on the Miller-Urey experiment, attempting to synthesise simple amino acids from inorganics (H2O, CO, CO2, and N2) using various inputs, was the one that got me to state.

How drôle.

Yes, it is rather lustig, isn't it?

Sounds like a creation science fairs (http://objectiveministries.org/creation/sciencefair.html) to me. They're really quite funny. The first time I read about the one in the link I couldn't stop laughing.

While I've never particularly thought that science and religion were mutually exclusive, I don't think a particular religious mindset should inform scientific inquiry. A science fair should be about science, period! When I entered science fairs, they were about science. When my kids entered science fairs, again, they were about science.

This business of trying to make science conform to a particular religious viewpoint is insulting to God (who is by definition, infinite and therefore cannot be perceived by the narrow little minds who try to make him/her conform to their fears) and to science (which has the potential of being infinite, since the more we know, the more we perceive there is to know and therefore cannot be perceived by the narrow little minds that try to make science conform to their fears).

I did one once and it involved the V1 rocket.

Step number 4 is a problem. How do you disprove the question of the existence of God?

I did one once and it involved the V1 rocket.

Step number 4 is a problem. How do you disprove the question of the existence of God?

Since the existence of God(s)/Goddess(es) can be neither proven nor disproven the question is moot. Step number 4 is not a problem since it is purely about sciences and the question of deity is outside science.

Since the existence of God(s)/Goddess(es) can be neither proven nor disproven the question is moot. Step number 4 is not a problem since it is purely about sciences and the question of deity is outside science.

Ahh but step 1 says it isn't.....

Ahh but step 1 says it isn't.....

Read my previous post.

"While I've never particularly thought that science and religion were mutually exclusive, I don't think a particular religious mindset should inform scientific inquiry. A science fair should be about science, period! When I entered science fairs, they were about science. When my kids entered science fairs, again, they were about science.

This business of trying to make science conform to a particular religious viewpoint is insulting to God (who is by definition, infinite and therefore cannot be perceived by the narrow little minds who try to make him/her conform to their fears) and to science (which has the potential of being infinite, since the more we know, the more we perceive there is to know and therefore cannot be perceived by the narrow little minds that try to make science conform to their fears)."

To my mind step 1 is both irrelevant and irreverent.

I was at the Library of Congress today. Saw a quote on the wall:

"Books should follow science, not science the books."

Wish I could remember who said it.

I've never been at/seen a 'Science fair' other than in American films/tv programs. Could one of you explain the purpose/activities of it?

I've never been at/seen a 'Science fair' other than in American films/tv programs. Could one of you explain the purpose/activities of it?

From what I gather people get together and teach their kids about volcanoes, paper mache and cheating... sounds fun.

I think i made a dinosaur out of vegetables once.

I was at the Library of Congress today. Saw a quote on the wall:

"Books should follow science, not science the books."

Wish I could remember who said it.
Sir Issac/Isaac/Isacc(SP) Newton?

I've never been at/seen a 'Science fair' other than in American films/tv programs. Could one of you explain the purpose/activities of it?

The idea is to get the students interested in science by doing a self guided project about something vaguely relative to science. For example: "How soap works?". The kid is supposed to research his or her little topic, do a few 'experiments' or 'demonstrations' and provide a little write up. The whole thing should be able to be presented on a table or area of a set size, and it should, ideally, include graphics and whatnot.

The kids are then allegedly judged on the validity of the science and such and prizes are awarded. In reality the winner is usually chosen by a combination of apparent effort, apple polishing skills and whose parents are the most pushy. (It helps if your parents are graphic designers).

Most of the projects are crap, and usually completely scientifically unsound.

What's the point of them? Well, as I said, the 'idea' is that it supposed to stimulate interest in the 'power of science' and help build self directed learning skills. In reality it is an excuse not to teach, and an excuse not to learn. I'm sure there is some kind of 'self-esteem' crap involved as well.

Frankly the whole thing is toss. And an utter waste of time.

Sounds like a creation science fairs (http://objectiveministries.org/creation/sciencefair.html) to me. They're really quite funny. The first time I read about the one in the link I couldn't stop laughing.

OMG these people are for real. :eek:

Those experiments are bonkers - 'just could water and carbon didn't evolve in a jar in 30 days it proves evolution can't happen' :rolleyes:

OMG these people are for real. :eek:


No. But it's getting harder to tell these days. The ASCE used to be a respected organization.

Once I did an experiment on whether different singers singing the same songs would have different effects on heart rate, because I noticed that my heart rate shot up whenever I listened to Michael Crawford sing Music of the Night, but not so much when I listened to Gerard Butler sing it. My results didn't really show much, because I didn't have enough people and the people involved mostly had very different results from each other. It was fun, even though I could have done a better job planning it, but it was fun to come up with an experiment, plan it, and perform it on my own with minimal help from advisors, especially since it was about something I was curious about at the time.

Once I did an experiment on whether different singers singing the same songs would have different effects on heart rate, because I noticed that my heart rate shot up whenever I listened to Michael Crawford sing Music of the Night, but not so much when I listened to Gerard Butler sing it. My results didn't really show much, because I didn't have enough people and the people involved mostly had very different results from each other. It was fun, even though I could have done a better job planning it, but it was fun to come up with an experiment, plan it, and perform it on my own with minimal help from advisors, especially since it was about something I was curious about at the time.

Isn't that what science fairs are all about?

Sounds like a creation science fairs (http://objectiveministries.org/creation/sciencefair.html) to me. They're really quite funny. The first time I read about the one in the link I couldn't stop laughing.
...

...

1st Place: "My Uncle Is A Man Named Steve (Not A Monkey)"
Cassidy Turnbull (grade 5) presented her uncle, Steve. She also showed photographs of monkeys and invited fairgoers to note the differences between her uncle and the monkeys. She tried to feed her uncle bananas, but he declined to eat them. Cassidy has conclusively shown that her uncle is no monkey.
:rolleyes:
2nd Place: "Women Were Designed For Homemaking"
Jonathan Goode (grade 7) applied findings from many fields of science to support his conclusion that God designed women for homemaking: physics shows that women have a lower center of gravity than men, making them more suited to carrying groceries and laundry baskets; biology shows that women were designed to carry un-born babies in their wombs and to feed born babies milk, making them the natural choice for child rearing; social sciences show that the wages for women workers are lower than for normal workers, meaning that they are unable to work as well and thus earn equal pay; and exegetics shows that God created Eve as a companion for Adam, not as a co-worker.
:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: There is no hope for humanity.

All I can say is ...

Isn't that what science fairs are all about?

Yeah, I guess so.:)

All exhibits must include scripture and give reference pertaining to the subject matter of the project. Some ideas are not specifically mentioned in the Bible, but there are some verses that develop principles that can be related to your project. The intent is to relate all areas of science to the Creator of the universe.

I think they should get a crash-course in science :rolleyes:

Okay, I didn't mean to sound that excited, because, well, I am not.

This year my kid is finally old enough to participate in the homeschool science fair, and so I go to the website to look and find this.........

Goals:

1. See the consistency and detail of God's creation

2. Apply scriptural lessons, truths, principles to science topics

3. Provide more than a science test can offer; variety, hands-on experience, thinking and reasoning, application and enjoyment

4. Teach the scientific method

5. Integrate all the academics: reading, writing, spiritual application, science facts, math, drawing conclusions, art, graphing, typing reports, oral presentation and time management





had I researched it before hand I wouldn't have told her about it.

I really thought that point 4 was the actual point of a science fair......I mean I remember that in school, that's what we put on our boards, the whole little process.

I guess I will have to start a secular homeschool science fair, if I can find anyone to attend, or I could just let her be a rebel and do her science project the right way.


so, what do you think about the "goals"? did you do science fairs when you were in school? what was your favorite project?

I'm confused...

The American Society of Civil Engineers is a Christian missionary group?

You have to decide how much you want to stick to your guns. To me - it is ludicrous, and I wouldn't want my children to be involved... not because there is a Christian edge to the education package they expect you to follow - but because it looks like the work will be judged.

Thus - if you choose to ignore their manner of doing it (i.e. if you choose to teach 'science' in your science class), your kids are going to be adversely judged.

Whether or not these people think there is a religious bias to the homeschool movement in this country, the science projects should be possible to complete with or without a religious agenda...

...

...


:rolleyes:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: There is no hope for humanity.

All I can say is ...

It's a parody website. In other words, not real.

I do agree there is no hope however.

It's a parody website. In other words, not real.

I do agree there is no hope however.

A parody website 'ey?

I suggest a project entitled "The Gullibility of Fundies"

The American Society of Civil Engineers is a Christian missionary group?


It's a student chapter. I was in a student chapter of the ASCE and I can tell you there is really no oversight by the main group body - though a faculty member is supposed to oversee the chapter's projects, elections, governance and such.

I imagine in this case the faculty liason is a crazyperson, and hence this nonsense.

Mind you, Oklahoma is hardly the center of the engineering world.

In any case, I've forwarded this to the actual ASCE. If I get a timely response I shall post it - content allowing.

It's a parody website. In other words, not real.

I do agree there is no hope however.
It is? o.0 Well, I've been had. Maybe I should have guessed it after I saw the dinosaur expedition to Africa article (http://objectiveministries.org/creation/dinoexpedition.html).

Mind you, Oklahoma is hardly the center of the engineering world.


you know I didn't post this for people to bash where I am from :(

although, thank you for trying to help, I really think that people should know what's going on.


As far as the purpose for science fairs, my whole point for wanting my kid to be able to participate is I thought we could go through the scientific method, do an actual experiment, record data, write a report, do a presentation, you know fun.

I've never been at/seen a 'Science fair' other than in American films/tv programs. Could one of you explain the purpose/activities of it?

They're a competition where students are supposed to engage in a scientific experiment and present the results. At the lower levels - elementary school age - it's usually a simple report. At the upper levels, especially high school, students are generally expected to actually run an experiment. Most students run simple experiments.

Lacadaemon's slightly exaggerated (but only just) version of events pretty well covers the school and sometimes the district events. At the regional, state, national, and international levels, it's generally all high school students and they can be pretty serious, as there are actually serious prizes such as university scholarships and even straight up cash money prizes.

I had a couple of friends who went all the way to the national level Siemens Westinghouse Science and Technology Competition (http://www.siemens-foundation.org/), both with serious biology/medical experiments - one on SIDS and the other on diabetes. The diabetes experiment (I have forgotten the details other than it was performed on diabetic mice - it was more than 20 years ago and not my project) was a winner - he got a full ride schollorship, if I recall correctly.

On that note, here's the judging criteria for that contest:
(same link as above)
Regional and National Competitions

The regional and national judges will use the following criteria to evaluate all aspects of the projects and presentations.

Creativity

Is the project original and imaginative? What is the origin of the student’s interest in the topic? Did the student develop new solutions or procedures? To what extent were the student’s talent and insight incorporated into the project? How did the student address any surprising or unforeseen developments?

Experimental Work

Are the variables and controls clearly defined? Did the student use the correct quantitative measures? Are the procedures well defined? Were measuring tools chosen and used appropriately?

Field Knowledge

Does the student demonstrate strong knowledge of the area of inquiry and the underlying scientific or mathematical issues?

Comprehensiveness

Are sufficient details given so that others can replicate the work? Does the research report fully explain the project itself or is further explanation needed?

Interpretation

Has the student stated the interpretations and conclusions clearly? Do the conclusions and interpretations follow from the results presented? What are the limits of the interpretations and the conclusions? Are there alternative conclusions that fit the results?

Validity

How scientifically reasonable and credible are the data, interpretations and conclusions? Can claims of novelty or improvement be justified?

Literature Review

Does the report reference appropriate related works and place the study in a proper context? Are all sources used in the research listed as references? Are the references cited within the text?

Scientific Importance

Does the project address an important scientific, technical or mathematical question or major issue? Does the student’s work demonstrate a high level of intellectual input, and is it innovative? Do the findings substantially add to the understanding of the area investigated?

Future Work

Is there a discussion of future or follow-up research? If so, what further data would be needed? What are possible applications of the work?

Clarity of Expression

Is the project understandable? Is the material presented logically and coherently? Are the key points, problems and solutions stated clearly and precisely? Does the student use tables and figures appropriately? Was the research report carefully proofread for spelling and grammar?

Presentation

Is the method of presentation consistent with the nature of the work and with scientific practice in the discipline involved?

Additionally for Team Projects

Teamwork

Is it clear how each member contributed? Was there an appropriate distribution of workload and responsibilities?

The science fairs I entered had similar criteria. Maybe you can see why I called the religious based criteria above insane. ;)

Why not just extract DNA from strawberries using shampoo?

Why not just extract DNA from strawberries using shampoo?

:D I think I have a scriptural lesson just for that! thanks!!

:D I think I have a scriptural lesson just for that! thanks!!

:eek:

Did I just help?!

:eek:

Did I just help?!

you made me laugh, then I thought about our display and presentation, then I laughed some more.........it was so fun.

you made me laugh, then I thought about our display and presentation, then I laughed some more.........it was so fun.

:p

you know I didn't post this for people to bash where I am from :(

although, thank you for trying to help, I really think that people should know what's going on.


As far as the purpose for science fairs, my whole point for wanting my kid to be able to participate is I thought we could go through the scientific method, do an actual experiment, record data, write a report, do a presentation, you know fun.

I'm not bashing. I'm just stating a fact and explaining why an ASCE chapter in oklahoma would act so contrary to people's expectation of the overall body.

Oklahoma is not a very good school for engineering, nothing wrong with that per se. You could have levelled the same accusation at NYU when it still had an engineering department.

As for science fairs, I am basing my experience on what I have seen in the tri-state area. (Which is about as far from oklahoma as you can get). From what you've said about what you want from them, I suggest you and other home schoolers get together and organize your own. And failing that, you can still teach your kids that stuff anyway.