NationStates Jolt Archive

.. but okay, so I don't know when they happened.

No, this is not yet another "OMG look how stupid people can be" thread, although I may or may not feel like creating one. This is about a friend of mine, a request for help she made to me, and my asking for your help to answer that request.

Short story: We're talking a 21-year-old uni student of above average intelligence who for one reason or the other has never received any education to speak of, formal or informal, on both history and politics, to the extent that yes, she knows there's been two World Wars at some point of time, and that here in Germany, we vote for parties and somehow they then decide on a chancellor in some way and make bills and laws in the remaining time and that's called a democratic process, but to be quite frank, that is about it.

Now, we're very good friends, and have talked about the inacceptable nature of these shortcomings in her education (my point of view) and her refusal to see the importance of knowing more for quite a long time, with no tangible results whatsoever. Yesterday, to my utter surprise, I receive an email telling me that she's finally seen the light, and desperately asks me to educate her, then.

Uh. This is where I meet my challenge and ask you to help me: Where do I begin? And how? I'm aware I will have to link her /recommend further reading to her a lot anyway and can't explain everything myself, but even so: Which topic do I start with? Do I do an overview first? How detailed? Is there any nice resource anyone knows about on the web / in print about this they can recommend?

A random poll outlining a few options as I thought of them shall be added.

Technically there has been more than two world wars, you know. And they didn't all involve Germany.

Technically there has been more than two world wars, you know. And they didn't all involve Germany.

Luckily, I made of point of speaking of World Wars as compared to world wars.

Go all the way back to the beginning of human history, and work your way forward. There's a neat Oxford book of world history that is quite good.

It doesn't cover everything, but it covers the essentials.

So, she is German, and yet she doesnt know shit, right?

If I were to really teach her, I would start with the unification of Germany. Ok, that is far way back, but I believe its where most of the things started.

First, you go to the German unification, the battles that happened, Austria, Prussia and the other german nations, and talk about how the unification hapened, and how France and the other countries, like Italy, influenced it.

Then, imperialism. Why? Because it was the main reason why World War I started. And the main reason why WW2 started was because of WWI. After Germany united, since it was far behind England and other countries, it tried to get into the competition. That was one of the causes of WWI, and Germany was destroyed and umiliated by the end of it. That, complimented with the big Crush of 1929 all around the world, made all it easier for Hitler to arise based on the pride of the German population (that was umiliated in WWI) and also on a new way for the german economy to develop, since comunism was out of the picture, and the regular capitalism up until then was not working.

So, I would start with:

German unity -> Imperialism and industrious revolution -> WWI -> WWII.

start with movement of people out of africa. and move on from that.
generalise a bit on the ancient cultures, concentration on the ones she shows some interest in and so on

Just make it up as you go along, she won't realise.

-

Start with European Imperialism, militarism, and the web of treaties that Europe became embroiled in preceding WWI. Then move on to the actual war itself, after that talk about the collapse of the German economy in the years after the war, loss of faith in the Weimar Republic, and contempt of the Treaty of Versailles which led to rising nationalism in Germany. After that move on to the rise of the Nazi's and the eventual start of WW2. It's simple when you think of WW2 being a result of WW1.

hell start from the formation of the earth.

history does'nt only have to cover human civilization

Luckily, I made of point of speaking of World Wars as compared to world wars.

Well that's a relief.

Don't you have the history channel? Just tell her to watch that. Sure, it's mostly wrong about the fiddly stuff, but it will give her a decent broad overview of the English Speaking Peoples and their relentless march to preeminence. All you need to know really.

Or just buy her one of those "illustrated encylopedia of world history" things.

Yeah, start with the creation of earth, just 4.5 billion years ago. :rolleyes:

If you're talking about German history, I'd start at the fall of the Holy Roman Empire/Beginnings of the German Confederation (although there's a few years between the two), through the Austro-Prussian War, the North German Confederation, Franco-Prussian War, the Empire, WWI, Weimar, Nazi Germany, WWII, Divided Germany & Unification to the present day.

The good thing about that is that you can also go through the politics of the period in each, from the relative autocracy of the Confederation era, the Revolutions of 1848 & the Frankfurt Parliament; the slow reforms under the Empire, the volatile Weimar Republic, and the development of modern Germany in East and West. That way, you can see how German politics has evolved with its history.

I also might include a little on the current constitutuional arrangement, including the federal system, the electoral system, and how the President and Federal Chancellor are chosen, and their roles. Again, a chronological approach can show how these evolved the way they did.

Yeah, start with the creation of earth, just 4.5 billion years ago. :rolleyes:

well why not?
Does'nt have to be year by year does it? but you can cover the rise of the different animal types that dominated the earth, how mammals came to become the dominant species, the rise of sapience, etc...
Then on the movement of humans out of africa, the various migrations, the rise of farming and so on.
The difference between the nomadic and ground peoples, husbandry, taming of fire, etc....
and so on.

personally i think it creates far more appreciation of the world aorund us and the tremendous things that humanity has achieved. As well as how finite it can all be.

.. but okay, so I don't know when they happened.

No, this is not yet another "OMG look how stupid people can be" thread, although I may or may not feel like creating one. This is about a friend of mine, a request for help she made to me, and my asking for your help to answer that request.

Short story: We're talking a 21-year-old uni student of above average intelligence who for one reason or the other has never received any education to speak of, formal or informal, on both history and politics, to the extent that yes, she knows there's been two World Wars at some point of time, and that here in Germany, we vote for parties and somehow they then decide on a chancellor in some way and make bills and laws in the remaining time and that's called a democratic process, but to be quite frank, that is about it.

Now, we're very good friends, and have talked about the inacceptable nature of these shortcomings in her education (my point of view) and her refusal to see the importance of knowing more for quite a long time, with no tangible results whatsoever. Yesterday, to my utter surprise, I receive an email telling me that she's finally seen the light, and desperately asks me to educate her, then.

Uh. This is where I meet my challenge and ask you to help me: Where do I begin? And how? I'm aware I will have to link her /recommend further reading to her a lot anyway and can't explain everything myself, but even so: Which topic do I start with? Do I do an overview first? How detailed? Is there any nice resource anyone knows about on the web / in print about this they can recommend?

A random poll outlining a few options as I thought of them shall be added.

One more thing, are politics and history not taught in German schools? If they are then why doesn't she have an education in them?

Go all the way back to the beginning of human history, and work your way forward. There's a neat Oxford book of world history that is quite good.

It doesn't cover everything, but it covers the essentials.

I think you quite set the tone for the thread; everyone seems to agree on the chronological path so far. Thanks for the book advice; I'll look into it.


If I were to really teach her, I would start with the unification of Germany. [-snipping further explanations-]
So, I would start with:

German unity -> Imperialism and industrious revolution -> WWI -> WWII.



Thanks for the rather detailed input, too, but I really wanted to not only give such a German-centric view, if you know what I mean.

start with movement of people out of africa. and move on from that.
generalise a bit on the ancient cultures, concentration on the ones she shows some interest in and so on

That's more like it. I was thinking along similar lines, but then I always worry about never making it to the present if I start there, but i don't know how to leave it out without... leaving out crucial stuff.

Just make it up as you go along, she won't realise.

Too bad that is true. No shitting you, a mutual freind and I, we convinced her once, for a joke, that there was a British [insert English word for Kaiser, something like a king], and that he was the one who ran the whole show there, without no parliament.

Start with European Imperialism, militarism, and the web of treaties that Europe became embroiled in preceding WWI. Then move on to the actual war itself, after that talk about the collapse of the German economy in the years after the war, loss of faith in the Weimar Republic, and contempt of the Treaty of Versailles which led to rising nationalism in Germany. After that move on to the rise of the Nazi's and the eventual start of WW2.

That looks like a more manageable timeline, but is awfully eurocentric, too.


It's simple when you think of WW2 being a result of WW1.

I must admit I never knew a different way of looking at it.

Luckily, I made of point of speaking of World Wars as compared to world wars.

Yeah, but World War I didn't exist until about 1942 or so.

well why not?
Does'nt have to be year by year does it? but you can cover the rise of the different animal types that dominated the earth, how mammals came to become the dominant species, the rise of sapience, etc...
Then on the movement of humans out of africa, the various migrations, the rise of farming and so on.
The difference between the nomadic and ground peoples, husbandry, taming of fire, etc....
and so on.

personally i think it creates far more appreciation of the world aorund us and the tremendous things that humanity has achieved. As well as how finite it can all be.

Except that we're talking about the World Wars and not history in general.

Of course when I was in school, learning about the Great Patriotic War (Великая Отечественная война) was frowned upon 'cos we'd joined the EU not so long ago and were supposed to let bygones be bygones.

I'd go for starting with the assassination of Franz Josef, then going onto the various parties that felt like jumping in for their various reasons, and a vague outline of the actual war itself's general direction...

Yeah. Just do the big events in chronological order. If she's got questions, answer them afterwards. :p

Short story: We're talking a 21-year-old uni student of above average intelligence who for one reason or the other has never received any education to speak of, formal or informal, on both history and politics, to the extent that yes, she knows there's been two World Wars at some point of time, and that here in Germany, we vote for parties and somehow they then decide on a chancellor in some way and make bills and laws in the remaining time and that's called a democratic process, but to be quite frank, that is about it.

This is the extent of a college student's knowledge?

Pardon my devolution to 'net slang, but OMG!!!!!1one

Well, you ask where to start and - my apologies if someone has already provided this answer, I've not gone through the thread - my suggestion is to have her attend a couple of dedicated history classes. I don't know if Germany has them, but in the US we have junior colleges. They provide basic college level classes and specific classes tailored to learn a specific skill but not necessarily as part of a degree plan. Or, some sort of what we call "continuing education." This would be the place to start.

Also, I would expect that Germany has a large reputable bookstore chain - I'm sure they have sections on history and civics. Visit these sections with her and find books suitable for learning the basics. Whet her appetite for the knowledge and she will probably find further sources on her own.

But, perhaps remedial history and civics classes from the local junior-college equivalent is the best avenue. Then, she has the advantage of professional teachers and a structured learning environment.

Of course when I was in school, learning about the Great Patriotic War (Великая Отечественная война) was frowned upon 'cos we'd joined the EU not so long ago and were supposed to let bygones be bygones.

If you don't mind me asking, where (what country) were you going to school?

Yeah, but World War I didn't exist until about 1942 or so.

Even though it began in 1931.

If you don't mind me asking, where (what country) were you going to school?

The UK.

Even though it began in 1931.

WWI? or WWII?

The UK.

*Brainfart* I thought only Russians referred to WW2 as the Great Patriotic War? Or am I missing something here?

Just make it up as you go along, she won't realise.
:p

I'm not much more helpful here, though, I'm afraid. I applaud your efforts, though, SoWiBi.


One more thing, are politics and history not taught in German schools? If they are then why doesn't she have an education in them? Of course they are! I am perplexed by the situation described in the OP, too.

hell start from the formation of the earth.

That'd be geology...

*Brainfart* I thought only Russians referred to WW1 as the Great Patriotic War? Or am I missing something here?

WWII, shurely?

hell start from the formation of the earth.

history does'nt only have to cover human civilization

I would, really, but the thing is that she far out-knows me there. She's a biologist with all her heart and generally scientifically inclined, and I might not be able to tell her anything new unless I come up with uncommonly detailed / exotic stuff (which i don't have the ability to unless I read up on it).


Don't you have the history channel?

Not that I'd be aware of. But now that you mention it, we have an excellent TV "show" (it goes on for 12+ hours) that covers the whole last century (it's aired regularly a couple of times a year, at specific dates. Too bad she misse dthe New Year's one.) [...]
but it will give her a decent broad overview of the English Speaking Peoples and their relentless march to preeminence. All you need to know really.
I didn't mention yet she's morbidly afraid of the English language, did I?

If you're talking about German history, I'd start at the fall of the Holy Roman Empire/Beginnings of the German Confederation (although there's a few years between the two), through the Austro-Prussian War, the North German Confederation, Franco-Prussian War, the Empire, WWI, Weimar, Nazi Germany, WWII, Divided Germany & Unification to the present day.

The good thing about that is that you can also go through the politics of the period in each, from the relative autocracy of the Confederation era, the Revolutions of 1848 & the Frankfurt Parliament; the slow reforms under the Empire, the volatile Weimar Republic, and the development of modern Germany in East and West. That way, you can see how German politics has evolved with its history.

I also might include a little on the current constitutuional arrangement, including the federal system, the electoral system, and how the President and Federal Chancellor are chosen, and their roles. Again, a chronological approach can show how these evolved the way they did.

That's an excellent proposal for German history, but as I posted just now, I prefer a more global approach. But I do plan an the whole intertwine history and politics/political ideas and concepts as they emerged, yes.

One more thing, are politics and history not taught in German schools? If they are then why doesn't she have an education in them?

They are, compulsoraly. Umm, I'd rathe rnot go into detail here, but this is a result of an unfortunate chain of unfortunate events, both in and outside her school(s). No, you'll find the average German person who did all 12/13 years of school to be comparably well educated in these areas, don't worry.

Of course they are! I am perplexed by the situation described in the OP, too.

I thought so. This is really odd then.

WWII, shurely?

Yeah, just World War II as far as I'm aware.

WWI? or WWII?

WWII. (Must pay more attention).

WWII, shurely?

Typo on my part.

*Brainfart* I thought only Russians referred to WW1 as the Great Patriotic War? Or am I missing something here?

Not really. Other than when WWII started and what it was called is rather subjective.

Well, let's see. First the earth cooled. And then the dinosaurs came, but they got too big and fat, so they all died and they turned into oil. And then the Arabs came and they bought Mercedes Benzes. And Prince Charles started wearing all of Lady Di's clothes. I couldn't believe it.

That's more like it. I was thinking along similar lines, but then I always worry about never making it to the present if I start there, but i don't know how to leave it out without... leaving out crucial stuff.


then why not ask what she would like to know about?
why shirts have buttons on the right?
or
where did the wheel come from?
or anything.

it will all lead to interesting historical topics that can move to other historical topics.

Not really. Other than when WWII started and what it was called is rather subjective.

...and for that matter when it finished. Whereas we in the western world only have VE day on the 7th May, in the former USSR and Eastern Block countries the entire GPW was finished on 9th May.

Yeah, but World War I didn't exist until about 1942 or so.

I was under the delusion we are in 2007, and teaching history from the point of view, and terminology, of that year.

Except that we're talking about the World Wars and not history in general.

I'm sorry if it came across that way (I tend not to be very clear, especially not in writing), but that was just the set-up for the post in general.. yes, we are talking History, as in, the whole bunch, not just Germany and/or the WW's.

This is the extent of a college student's knowledge?

Pardon my devolution to 'net slang, but OMG!!!!!1one
You are excused. And no, as pointed out before, it is absolutely not. Not in this country, anyway.

[..] my suggestion is to have her attend a couple of dedicated history classes. [..] Or, some sort of what we call "continuing education."

I'm not quite sure of her workload, but yes, this is an excellent idea. I'll have her check whether her college has open classes for history (my English classes, e.g., will not accept people who don't go for a degree in English to sit in the lectures).

Books are good, too, but there are about as many books as there is knowledge about history, and I wouldn't know where to start.. though the people there could probably help me/us.

:p
I'm not much more helpful here, though, I'm afraid. I applaud your efforts, though, SoWiBi.
Thanks, and thanks for popping in anyway. :]
ETA: Oh, and that one poll option was made for you exclusively - I'm glad you know which way a decent Witt-Witt votes. ;P

I was under the delusion we are in 2007, and teaching history from the point of view, and terminology, of that year.

Yeah, but any attempt to teach about WWI without at least noting in passing that it was never called WWI or even the World War during its passage would be a shame.

Even though it began in 1931.

No.

1914.

Or, maybe, even 1803...

Except that we're talking about the World Wars and not history in general.

according to the OP:Short story: We're talking a 21-year-old uni student of above average intelligence who for one reason or the other has never received any education to speak of, formal or informal, on both history and politics, to the extent that yes, she knows there's been two World Wars at some point of time, and that here in Germany, we vote for parties and somehow they then decide on a chancellor in some way and make bills and laws in the remaining time and that's called a democratic process, but to be quite frank, that is about it.

next to no knowledge of history would mean she has next to no knowledge on history. or the history of democracy, which alone starts around 2.500 years ago.

then why not ask what she would like to know about?
why shirts have buttons on the right?
or
where did the wheel come from?
or anything.

it will all lead to interesting historical topics that can move to other historical topics.

I've been thinking about that approach, too, but to be quite honest, I dropped it because the field is sooo vast there..

The buttons thing has been explained in some thread while ago - and you just outed yourself as either male, or a female wearing men's shirts. ;P

according to the OP:Short story: We're talking a 21-year-old uni student of above average intelligence who for one reason or the other has never received any education to speak of, formal or informal, on both history and politics, to the extent that yes, she knows there's been two World Wars at some point of time, and that here in Germany, we vote for parties and somehow they then decide on a chancellor in some way and make bills and laws in the remaining time and that's called a democratic process, but to be quite frank, that is about it.

My prescription: Kelly's Heroes, The Dirty Dozen and The Great Escape. What else is there to know?

Yeah, but any attempt to teach about WWI without at least noting in passing that it was never called WWI or even the World War during its passage would be a shame.

That's right; I apologize for the bitchiness in my answer; I think I mistook yours. Though I really must remind everyone we are, as astounding as it sounds in this context, talking a rather intelligent specimen and she might figure that out on her own.

..that, and I never said any history teachings of mine would amount to anything more than 'a shame'. :]

according to the OP:Short story: We're talking a 21-year-old uni student of above average intelligence who for one reason or the other has never received any education to speak of, formal or informal, on both history and politics, to the extent that yes, she knows there's been two World Wars at some point of time, and that here in Germany, we vote for parties and somehow they then decide on a chancellor in some way and make bills and laws in the remaining time and that's called a democratic process, but to be quite frank, that is about it.

next to no knowledge of history would mean she has next to no knowledge on history. or the history of democracy, which alone starts around 2.500 years ago.

Except that long post you just wrote means nothing since he's asking us about the World Wars. Yes the girl probably has no knowledge of history (I weep for her), but the OP wants us to give him tips on introducing her to the World Wars. If he wanted tips on history in general I would be more than happy to oblige, but I've already stated what I think would be a good starting point for him earlier in the thread.

My prescription: Saving Private Ryan, Pearl Harbor and The Great Escape. What else is there to know?

That I don't do moving pictures, and it'd rather inappropriate for me to recommend watching movies, then. :]

I've been thinking about that approach, too, but to be quite honest, I dropped it because the field is sooo vast there..

The buttons thing has been explained in some thread while ago - and you just outed yourself as either male, or a female wearing men's shirts. ;P

was there a thread? must of missed.
the fact is history is vast and any individual topic, example WW1, cannot be fully understood without knowing about the period of colonism that took place before hand, which cannot be ..... well you get the point i'm sure.

keep it more general then. Cover briefly (i she's german) the Frankish empire and how the eastern part became the Holy Roman empire and move on the the modern era. Keep it all brief, then move on to the period before that, Roman empire, etc..

...and for that matter when it finished. Whereas we in the western world only have VE day on the 7th May, in the former USSR and Eastern Block countries the entire GPW was finished on 9th May.

We also have VJ Day in the US. My home state, Rhode Island, still has it for a holiday.

So, new challenge - as comprehensive a history of WWI and II as possible in 200 words?

was there a thread? must of missed.
Well, the thread was more.. your style, actually; it was about anything and everything one had always wanted to know.. anyway, HERE'S (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11995589&postcount=30)the link to the buttony post :]
(People, don't gravedig)

Except that long post you just wrote means nothing since he's asking us about the World Wars. Yes the girl probably has no knowledge of history (I weep for her), but the OP wants us to give him tips on introducing her to the World Wars. If he wanted tips on history in general I would be more than happy to oblige, but I've already stated what I think would be a good starting point for him earlier in the thread.

no he's not.



I'm sorry if it came across that way (I tend not to be very clear, especially not in writing), but that was just the set-up for the post in general.. yes, we are talking History, as in, the whole bunch, not just Germany and/or the WW's.

So, new challenge - as comprehensive a history of WWI and II as possible in 200 words?

I can do it in three: shit blows up.

Start with European history from late Middle Age (about 1300) to present.

no he's not.

Hoisted by my own Petard. Anyway, moving on... In that case, start at the Battle of Salamis and move on to present day. This is a Western centric view of history, but since you're both German it shouldn't matter.

no he's not.

Again, my apologies if that was ambiguously worded, thanks to Cullons for helping me clear that up, and.. well, I'd like to inform the world I'm not sporting a penis, and very grateful for that. Thanks.

Some people say there werent two wars, but one, with a 20 years hiatus.

Anyway, I think you will find it hard to explain germany without being eurocentric. You see, it all falls down to the Roman and Greek times, because that is when our western culture started to develop. Even if you´re german, I´m pretty sure the Roman and Greek cultures influenced them a lot.

At least in our schools, we do learn about other civilizations of the ancient times, but we mainly focus on the greek and roman civilization as the start of our civilization (I´m Brazilian btw).

Greek -> Roman -> Spain -> Portugal -> Brazil.

Again, my apologies if that was ambiguously worded, thanks to Cullons for helping me clear that up, and.. well, I'd liek to inform the world I'm not sporting a penis, and very grateful for that. Thanks.

you a woman or a eunich/eunuch?

I can do it in three: shit blows up.

Shit blows up. Twice.

Shit blows up. Twice.

This should have been the name for Die Hard 2.

We also have VJ Day in the US. My home state, Rhode Island, still has it for a holiday.

Yes, I was taking as read that people would see the contrast between the western world not considering WWII over until VJ day, whereas for the USSR and Eastern Bloc countries it was all over months before.

This is a Western centric view of history, but since you're both German it shouldn't matter.

You might have missed the part in rather recent history where we Germans stopped being only self-centered ;]

No, seriously, I'll do a lot more Euro-/Western stuff than I would were both I and her not German, but I don't plan on leaving out all the rest completely.

My prescription: Kelly's Heroes, The Dirty Dozen and The Great Escape. What else is there to know?

Kelly's Heroes was a great flick. The first attempt to actually make German tanks LOOK like German tanks. Even if they were modified T-34s. The suspension isn't right and the turret is too far forward, but they were beautiful Tiger Is.

Better than using M-48s as Tigers and M-24 Chaffees as Shermans.

Anyway, I think you will find it hard to explain germany without being eurocentric.
I'n not sure whether my goal really is ' to explain Germany', you see.
you a woman or a eunich/eunuch?
Does a eunuch really lack his complete organ afterwards? I always thought.. anyway, no, I'm a woman.

Shit blows up. Twice.

You make up for everything and anything with that reference, if it was intended. :]

history is what we make all the time, even when we're sleeping or playing with ourselves, whether we realize it or even care or not. most of it even, is made by not caring.

there were two wars in which two major alliances of major powers went head to head and tore up a lot more crap then just themselves and each other.

the euphamism "world war" has been used to refer to each of these events, even though many cultures and places at the time did not directly participat, and there have been armed conflicts since which have resaulted in simular, possibly even greater, loss of life and destruction of artifacts.

wwi was in the 1910's it was over before 1920. it was called 'the GREAT war', as if there could be anything "great" about any war. wwii, took place in the 1940s, in a world that had become, or was on the virge of becoming, mechanized to the degree we are all familiar with.

the first took place in a world where MOST people still did MOST things, by hand. the second in a world already well familiar with mechanical marvels, though not the degree and suphistication of atomation we have now.

both were bloodbaths, though the first was one long stalemate of trench warfare. the latter fought with tanks and aircraft, though mostly without much of the more sophisticated instrumentation we take for granted today.

my own father fought in wwii. my mother's family migrated to the u.s. from eastern europe after the kaiser's pograms but before hitler's holocaust.

children today, in thier warm safe parlours, love to refight vicariously on their gameboys and playstations and with roll playing dice, the battles and situations of each of them.

and i'm personaly thankful i was NOT in the middle of either of them going on.
i was of draft age during viet nam however, and joing the air force as a c.c.o. to get out of being drafted into the army. thus i was fortunate to avoid being sent over to slaughter civilians and destroy what had been their traditional ways of life.

=^^=
.../\...

Kelly's Heroes was a great flick. The first attempt to actually make German tanks LOOK like German tanks. Even if they were modified T-34s. The suspension isn't right and the turret is too far forward, but they were beautiful Tiger Is.

Aye, the wee wheel in the front of the tracks is the real giveaway.

there were two wars in which two major alliances of major powers went head to head and tore up a lot more crap then just themselves and each other.

the euphamism "world war" has been used to refer to each of these events, even though many cultures and places at the time did not directly participat, and there have been armed conflicts since which have resaulted in simular, possibly even greater, loss of life and destruction of artifacts.

wwi was in the 1910's it was over before 1920. it was called 'the GREAT war', as if there could be anything "great" about any war. wwii, took place in the 1940s, in a world that had become, or was on the virge of becoming, mechanized to the degree we are all familiar with.

the first took place in a world where MOST people still did MOST things, by hand. the second in a world already well familiar with mechanical marvels, though not the degree and suphistication of atomation we have now.

both were bloodbaths, though the first was one long stalemate of trench warfare. the latter fought with tanks and aircraft, though mostly without much of the more sophisticated instrumentation we take for granted today.

children today, in thier warm safe parlours, love to refight vicariously on their gameboys and playstations and with roll playing dice, the battles and situations of each of them.

You know, that was actually very funny, in a strange way.

...and there have been armed conflicts since which have resaulted in simular, possibly even greater, loss of life and destruction of artifacts.

Similar amounts of loss of life to WWII? Such as...

start with Mesopotamia work forward.

both were bloodbaths, though the first was one long stalemate of trench warfare. the latter fought with tanks and aircraft, though mostly without much of the more sophisticated instrumentation we take for granted today.

Dismissing WWI as a long stalemate of trench warfare alone is to ignore the Eastern front completely, and it was also fought with tanks and aircraft.

You might have missed the part in rather recent history where we Germans stopped being only self-centered ;]

No, seriously, I'll do a lot more Euro-/Western stuff than I would were both I and her not German, but I don't plan on leaving out all the rest completely.

By presenting a Western centric history it simplifies things greatly (since she has no knowledge of politics or history; both are related and modern politics is a Western invention). Don't worry about the other stuff, because while fascinating it really doesn't matter when talking about modern (1400-present) history until you get into Imperialism.

Yes, I was taking as read that people would see the contrast between the western world not considering WWII over until VJ day, whereas for the USSR and Eastern Bloc countries it was all over months before.

Though the soviet army conducted offensive operations in asia until september 9 (-?) in Asia.

Though the soviet army conducted offensive operations in asia until september 9 (-?) in Asia.

Yeah, but only declared war on Japan in August.

Aye, the wee wheel in the front of the tracks is the real giveaway.

That, and the road wheels aren't interlaced.

Or big enough.

the euphamism "world war" has been used to refer to each of these events, even though many cultures and places at the time did not directly participat, and there have been armed conflicts since which have resaulted in simular, possibly even greater, loss of life and destruction of artifacts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participants_in_World_War_I
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allies_of_World_War_II

Dismissing WWI as a long stalemate of trench warfare alone is to ignore the Eastern front completely, and it was also fought with tanks and aircraft.

and he also forgot all the campaigns in africa and the middle-east.

and i beleive there were 1 or 2 naval engagements of the coast of south america aswell.

I'd say introduce her to a handful of key events, and then slowly build up facts around them until she has a general knowledge on the matter. For example, I'd probably start with German Unification in 1871, and explain how Bismark accomplisched it through the use of diplomatic prowess, military capability and fear of the French.

Move to World War I and start by explaining that things happened down an accelerating chain of events, eventually leading to the explosion. Explain how tensions were high, and only a single spart from the Balkans, in which an unloved member of the Austrian royal family was killed drove the world into madness. Explain how Kaiser Wilhelm II was batshit insane, and was expressing a crazy Oedipus conflict by building a Navy to challenge Britain (that always keeps people's attention). Explain how the Americans loathed getting into the war, but once they did, they made the western allies nearly invincible, and that there was no way for Germany to overcome their combined military might.

Explain the Weimar era, the economic collapse and temporary rebirth of German art and culture. Then explain how the collapse of the American stock market broke Germany and that the response was to the desperation was to vote for somebody who looked strong.

Explain World War II, how Hitler managed to spur the German economy onto its feet, then, through a series of broken agreements and open aggressions, made war on nearly all of his neighbors (woohoo! Go Switzerland!) Explain how he made mistakes that led to his downfall at the hands of the Allied Armies.

Tell her about the Cold War, as a struggle between the US and the USSR, with Germany being the center of conflict, and how Germany was at risk during the entire era of being the most lethal battlefield in history.

Then explain how the USSR collapsed, because central planning, tyrrany and flawed theory didn't work. Describe it as becoming fat, bloated and addicted to crappy off-brand Twinkies (slavery). Explain how German reunification did indeed create a rather odd conglomeration of peoples, with the Ossi's and the Wessi's having initially different cultures and the difficulties of integrating the Ossi's into West German society and industry.

After that, European history seems to be on a bit of a hiatus.

By presenting a Western centric history it simplifies things greatly (since she has no knowledge of politics or history; both are related and modern politics is a Western invention).
Simple is always good, and rarely ever sufficient. Unfortunately.
Don't worry about the other stuff, because while fascinating it really doesn't matter when talking about modern (1400-present) history until you get into Imperialism.
You mean it doesn't matter for the strictly German perspective, but that unequals 'doesn't matter', IMHO.

Plus.. well, I hope I get into Imperialism, so.. well.

After that, European history seems to be on a bit of a hiatus.

No mention of the EU and its rampant Hegelian dream?

ok shes 21, german and barely knows that there were 2 world wars in the last century that involved germany.....

forget the history books. give her a brief overview then go to the book store and find a nice historical romance (or 2) that takes place in germany in the appropriate time frame.

once her heart breaks for the tribulations of mary sue, she will naturally want to learn a bit more about the era.

anything else will make her eyes glaze over. she wont read it. she needs a bit of inspiration to get her going.

oh oh oh, for ww2, get her a copy of the movie CABERET with liza minelli as the female lead. good performances, good songs, set in the berlin during the rise of nazi-ism. not too heavy handed on the politics.

No mention of the EU and its rampant Hegelian dream?

Eh, it's really actually a bit boring for an introduction to history lesson. Perhaps in lesson two it would be appropriate, but right now retaining attention with shiny boom-booms is of central primacy.

I'd say introduce her to a handful of key events, and then slowly build up facts around them until she has a general knowledge on the matter. For example, I'd probably start with German Unification in 1871, and explain how Bismark accomplisched it through the use of diplomatic prowess, military capability and fear of the French.

Move to World War I and start by explaining that things happened down an accelerating chain of events, eventually leading to the explosion. Explain how tensions were high, and only a single spart from the Balkans, in which an unloved member of the Austrian royal family was killed drove the world into madness. Explain how Kaiser Wilhelm II was batshit insane, and was expressing a crazy Oedipus conflict by building a Navy to challenge Britain (that always keeps people's attention). Explain how the Americans loathed getting into the war, but once they did, they made the western allies nearly invincible, and that there was no way for Germany to overcome their combined military might.

Explain the Weimar era, the economic collapse and temporary rebirth of German art and culture. Then explain how the collapse of the American stock market broke Germany and that the response was to the desperation was to vote for somebody who looked strong.

Explain World War II, how Hitler managed to spur the German economy onto its feet, then, through a series of broken agreements and open aggressions, made war on nearly all of his neighbors (woohoo! Go Switzerland!) Explain how he made mistakes that led to his downfall at the hands of the Allied Armies.

Tell her about the Cold War, as a struggle between the US and the USSR, with Germany being the center of conflict, and how Germany was at risk during the entire era of being the most lethal battlefield in history.

Then explain how the USSR collapsed, because central planning, tyrrany and flawed theory didn't work. Describe it as becoming fat, bloated and addicted to crappy off-brand Twinkies (slavery). Explain how German reunification did indeed create a rather odd conglomeration of peoples, with the Ossi's and the Wessi's having initially different cultures and the difficulties of integrating the Ossi's into West German society and industry.

After that, European history seems to be on a bit of a hiatus.

I welcome a new member of The Secret German Society to this thread. ;]

And yes, nice summary for what it covers, but once more.. " n lütten wenich, Herr, n lütten wenich"... I really do want to overcome Eurocentrism, no matter how appealing that option is.

Simple is always good, and rarely ever sufficient. Unfortunately.

You mean it doesn't matter for the strictly German perspective, but that unequals 'doesn't matter', IMHO.

I think you misuderstand me. I'm saying that covering Western history first will cover the basics of "world history" and give her a better foundation when you later cover histories of other cultures which often overlap with Western history.

Plus.. well, I hope I get into Imperialism, so.. well.

I should hope so. European domination of the Earth is very important history wise.

ok shes 21, german and barely knows that there were 2 world wars in the last century that involved germany.....

forget the history books. give her a brief overview then go to the book store and find a nice historical romance (or 2) that takes place in germany in the appropriate time frame.

...or more entertainingly give her copies of The Man In The High Castle, SS-GB and Fatherland. If she feels like watching a movie show her It Happened Here.

Well, even if you dont like it, Europe was the main region of the world for a long time.

Of course, there was China, India, a lot of other civilizations in Asia etc, and even some in America, like the Inca, Maya, Aztecs and some others in south and north America.

But, considering history in the last 1000 years, I think Europe really was in the middle of it all. China could´ve had been more important, but it kind of stagnated in the XVI/XVII centuries.

No mention of the EU and its rampant Hegelian dream?
You're quite right, this'll have to go into it, especially and at the very leats with the 'politics' part..


forget the history books. give her a brief overview then go to the book store and find a nice historical romance (or 2) that takes place in germany in the appropriate time frame.

once her heart breaks for the tribulations of mary sue, she will naturally want to learn a bit more about the era.

anything else will make her eyes glaze over. she wont read it. she needs a bit of inspiration to get her going.

I very, very much resent your notion that she'd be too intellectually challenged to read up on history like anyone else. She absolutely needs 'a bit of inspiration to keep her going', but do remember she's a close friend of mine, which means that she's the kind who'll see a glossy romance more of a reason to turn away from the subject matter than one to learn more about it.

I might not have mentioned it before, but she's got a very high natural curiosity, and a very much working, analytical brain; it's just that there have been certain circumstances that prevented her from getting exposed to knoweldge in the aforementioned categories like most of us did.

Start off with the basics, then go step by step......

...or more entertainingly give her copies of The Man In The High Castle, SS-GB and Fatherland. If she feels like watching a movie show her It Happened Here.

Great books. I'd like to add The Glass Bees to that list.

I welcome a new member of The Secret German Society to this thread. ;]

And yes, nice summary for what it covers, but once more.. " n lütten wenich, Herr, n lütten wenich"... I really do want to overcome Eurocentrism, no matter how appealing that option is.

That's the kind of unfortunate bit, as for the past 200-300 years Western Europeans and Americans have managed to so thoroughly dominate global affairs that not much else really happened until decolonization, and even then those were mainly drops in the bucket events.

But, as an intro I'd say stick with German history. It's what she'll understand most easily, as it's something she can identify with more easily than, say...mixing in India and China, whose gigantic histories are enough to consume lifetimes of work.

I think you misuderstand me. I'm saying that covering Western history first will cover the basics of "world history" and give her a better foundation when you later cover histories of other cultures which often overlap with Western history.

Yes, I seem to keep misunderstanding you in this thread. Though I'm not sure about the order of when to cover what first. :]

Yes, I seem to keep misunderstanding you in this thread. Though I'm not sure about the order of when to cover what first. :]

Well, if you want to take my advice, start at the battle of Salamis and move forward from there with a focus on Western history. When thats covered you can start on Chinese history which is very, very interesting.

I very, very much resent your notion that she'd be too intellectually challenged to read up on history like anyone else.

Question: how did you first start to learn about the history of the World Wars? Did you sit down as a child and crack open a scholarly account, or did you slowly leech factoids out of entertainment media?

Start off with the basics, then go step by step......
Don't say. I'd never have thought of that. Now, if you would be so kind as to elaborate on what 'the basics' are, and what and how big 'a step' is..

That's the kind of unfortunate bit, as for the past 200-300 years Western Europeans and Americans have managed to so thoroughly dominate global affairs that not much else really happened until decolonization, and even then those were mainly drops in the bucket events.

But, as an intro I'd say stick with German history. It's what she'll understand most easily, as it's something she can identify with more easily than, say...mixing in India and China, whose gigantic histories are enough to consume lifetimes of work.

You know, I might just present a couple of the options to her tonight, and see what she says. :]

Question: how did you first start to learn about the history of the World Wars? Did you sit down as a child and crack open a scholarly account, or did you slowly leech factoids out of entertainment media?

maybe a computer game....
you'd be surpised the amount of people i know who are in to history now because of games like Rome Total War or even the original CIV series

In all seriousness, point her at the Wikipedia articles on WWI and WWII and let her find her own feet.

I was going to edit my original response but then thought you might miss it, so here goes.

Why do you want her to know when the world wars happened? is history about dates? not really. The entire focus of history is to see what happened before and learn from it. That being said starting from today and working back is about the worst thing you can do.

I say you break it up into three distinct sessions, government (your local one), current events, and history, start at the beginning (or close to it) and work forward building all the way so she gets the big picture.

Why do you want her to know when the world wars happened? is history about dates? not really. The entire focus of history is to see what happened before and learn from it.

And what is the main thing that we learn from history?

That we don't learn from history.

Dismissing WWI as a long stalemate of trench warfare alone is to ignore the Eastern front completely, and it was also fought with tanks and aircraft.

such, admitedly, are the great risks of attempting to generalize for the sake of succinctness. suffice it to say, i am not an ardent student of military history myself.

and as for more recent bloodlettings, there HAVE been many and bloody, if you add up indonesia, cambodia, and now the middle east, well i don't claim to know how the numbers compare, but i do know that big holes in the ground full of unhappy dead people are still being unneccessarily made, in the serivce of self serving pseudo conservative politics.

yes, germany learned that lesson of guilt and shame the hard way, and as a resault, in the 70s, before 'reunification' became one the most honest and non 'conservative' countrys in the world, or at least on the eurasian continent, and perhapse to some degree still is. (the east germany it was reunited with appearantly hadn't entirely and had other problems, which, after reunification, of course, became to some degree everone's there)

a lesson america has YET to learn.

that when the people of a nation let it get away with bullying the rest of the world, sooner or later it starts fouling its own nest. as is happining in the u.s. today.

and i very much fear, unless the road the u.s. is currently on radicly chainges, the rest of the world may have to get togather and put an end to its deprivations the way the allies did to stop hitler in wwii.

=^^=
.../\...

You're quite right, this'll have to go into it, especially and at the very leats with the 'politics' part..



I very, very much resent your notion that she'd be too intellectually challenged to read up on history like anyone else. She absolutely needs 'a bit of inspiration to keep her going', but do remember she's a close friend of mine, which means that she's the kind who'll see a glossy romance more of a reason to turn away from the subject matter than one to learn more about it.

I might not have mentioned it before, but she's got a very high natural curiosity, and a very much working, analytical brain; it's just that there have been certain circumstances that prevented her from getting exposed to knoweldge in the aforementioned categories like most of us did.


she is 21 years old and hasnt bothered to find out anything about the history of the last century. she may be your best friend but there IS something wrong with her. after all, she can go to the library or use google just as well as anyone else. why hasnt she?

ive become interested in many eras of history after seeing a movie or reading a book set in that time. its a very good way to spark interest where there has been none before.

do your friend a favor and get her some good books to get her started.

...or more entertainingly give her copies of The Man In The High Castle, SS-GB and Fatherland. If she feels like watching a movie show her It Happened Here.

i havent read or seen those. or heard of them for that matter.

i recommended caberet because its set in berlin and makes berlin seem like the coolest city in the world at that time. most of the books and movies ive been exposed to have the germans as the big-time-downer bad guys.

Question: how did you first start to learn about the history of the World Wars? Did you sit down as a child and crack open a scholarly account, or did you slowly leech factoids out of entertainment media?
I leave it up to you to believe it or not, but yes, I (first) learned about the WWs in school, and most of what I know now is collected from various 'educative' environments /talks/readings, and not very much from 'entertainment media' - which again may just be because I never did much 'entertainment media'.

maybe a computer game....
you'd be surpised the amount of people i know who are in to history now because of games like Rome Total War or even the original CIV series
Again, please do remember we already have her interested / wanting to know. What I need is to communicate facts to her as efficiently as possible, not to make her interested / wanting to learn in the first place.

Why do you want her to know when the world wars happened? is history about dates? not really. The entire focus of history is to see what happened before and learn from it. That being said starting from today and working back is about the worst thing you can do.
I don't. I don't want her to know any exact dates (again, that was just the 'Hey, attention, everybody!' beginning of the thread), I want her to udnerstand our history. And I do need her to know main events and their causes and order for that, which is all I'm aiming for.

I say you break it up into three distinct sessions, government (your local one), current events, and history, start at the beginning (or close to it) and work forward building all the way so she gets the big picture.

Sounds reasonable enough.

i havent read or seen those. or heard of them for that matter.

Alternative history novels. My little joke.

i recommended caberet because its set in berlin and makes berlin seem like the coolest city in the world at that time. most of the books and movies ive been exposed to have the germans as the big-time-downer bad guys.

One of these days I must get round to reading that copy of Goodbye To Berlin which has been sitting on my shelves for a good ten years.

I leave it up to you to believe it or not, but yes, I (first) learned about the WWs in school, and most of what I know now is collected from various 'educative' environments /talks/readings, and not very much from 'entertainment media' - which again may just be because I never did much 'entertainment media'.

Out of interest, does All Quiet On The Western Front fall into your category of 'entertainment media' with which you are unfamiliar?

Again, please do remember we already have her interested / wanting to know. What I need is to communicate facts to her as efficiently as possible, not to make her interested / wanting to learn in the first place.



then i'd recommend getting her one of those books that cover "100 of the greatest events in history". or something similar. i'm willing to bet there are a ton of books like that

Out of interest, does All Quiet On The Western Front fall into your category of 'entertainment media' with which you are unfamiliar?
I read that, at a point though where I was very much familiar with the historical background already.

then i'd recommend getting her one of those books that cover "100 of the greatest events in history". or something similar. i'm willing to bet there are a ton of books like that
I possess something that'd translate to "Everything one needs to know", huuuge book; I've been thinking about lending her that and have her read the history chapter.

I read that, at a point though where I was very much familiar with the historical background already.

So would suggesting that as an easy way into WWI be considered patronising by you?

I vote go chronologically, starting with the dawn of Mesopotamian civilization. Follow two major themes, those being the solid, concrete "this happened then for these reasons" and "these are the philosophies that underpinned these events".

Of course, it would be useful to abbreviate a good deal of it.

Slow it down, space it out, and cover in greater depth starting at a particular point (which would change depending on German history, of which I know not enough to judge this point.).

Approaching it from a US'ian perspective (as I live here) that point would be, I believe, the rise of European seafaring powers.

You may want to slow it down again, possibly several times/continuously, as one approaches the present. Good points to do this would events/periods such as the industrial revolution.

Don't say. I'd never have thought of that. Now, if you would be so kind as to elaborate on what 'the basics' are, and what and how big 'a step' is.
The basic concepts of government, and how society and humankind works, and then use history as examples, et cetera.

So would suggesting that as an easy way into WWI be considered patronising by you?
Not all all. Thing is, I don't think she has the time / energy to read fiction in order to get familiar with the facts when she's already interested; I'm more looking into efficiency in getting facts done, so it'd be a nice proposition, but probably not quite what I am looking for here.

I vote go chronologically, starting with the dawn of Mesopotamian civilization. Follow two major themes, those being the solid, concrete "this happened then for these reasons" and "these are the philosophies that underpinned these events".

Of course, it would be useful to abbreviate a good deal of it.

Slow it down, space it out, and cover in greater depth starting at a particular point (which would change depending on German history, of which I know not enough to judge this point.).

Yeah, that sounds a lot like what I was planning as of when I started the trhead.

Oh Mann! :headbang:

Start with Christ's birth and work yourself through those 2000+ years, focusing on Germania and Germany, pointing out important historic events.

Biggest focus should then be on the Napoleonic Wars (Freiheitskriege), the Prussian Wars (Einigungskriege), the German Empire, 3rd Reich, Nachkriegszeit, etc.

What the hell has that person been doing in her school years? Although we never truly covered WW2 because we started all over in the Stone Age thrice and worked our way up to the rise of Adolf to chancellor, there's enough good books to read and documentaries on TV to catch up.

You have a lot of work up ahead, Oeckilein, because it doesn't sound like you'll have to fill in blanks - it's all blank judging by the OP commentary. :eek:

Das kann doch nicht die Wahrheit sein!

P.S.: Reading the last posts, maybe you'll even have to start in ancient Greece because of the impact of their knowledge and philosophy on our own culture.

What does she want to glean from your teachings? Does she just want a brief factual overview, or does she want to explore the worldviews that have helped to shape the present? Facts are easy if you simply accept the version being given. But if she wants a better understanding of the kinds of worldviews that have been reflected in various societies over human history, and how worldviews have clashed and the results of this, then a perfectly linear telling may not be ideal. World history can be discussed geographically or globally, and both ways have their merits and drawbacks. You don't want to overwhelm her with trivialities. Dates are not all important, names are not all important...certain dates, places, etc may be, but should not be the focus. It sounds like what you friend is lacking is a base from which to draw from in order to hone her critical thinking skills. Whatever information you give her is going to be slanted in a certain way, no matter how hard you try...but if she understands that from the beginning, then she will be more able to use a filter when approaching any new information.

Then again, if time is of the essence, then beginning with a somewhat in depth understanding of the World Wars would not be a total wash. What you should be aiming for is helping her gain the skills to do her own research, to know how to filter and critique sources etc. If she is really interested, she needs to do the bulk of the work herself...a teacher should be focused on passing along skills...knowledge is constructed using those skills.

Start with the Roman Empire. Because that will lead to the Holy Roman Empire, and then you're into German history.

[--]
What the hell has that person been doing in her school years? Although we never truly covered WW2 because we started all over in the Stone Age thrice and worked our way up to the rise of Adolf to chancellor, there's enough good books to read and documentaries on TV to catch up.
Don't ask, won't tell. Was Du nicht weißt, macht Dich nicht.. öh, den Kopf gegen die Wand schlagen?

You have a lot of work up ahead, Oeckilein, because it doesn't sound like you'll have to fill in blanks - it's all blank judging by the OP commentary. :eek:

Das kann doch nicht die Wahrheit sein!

Oh, I feel so much like a traitor to her, but I just got the following message (after my inquiry to her as to where, when and what with we should start):

"[Oeckilein], du weißt doch, dass ich rein gar nix weiß! Also doch, ich weiß dass die Mauer gefallen ist [sie ist Ossi, she better], aber sonst.. [anonymized] war heut wieder ganz schockiert, da hat der Ministerpräsident von NRW geredet und ich hab gefragt, ob jedes Bundesland so einen hat, und, naja... also so halt."

I'm trying to remain civil when people say such things. But one of my flatmates (brilliant mathematical mind, mind you, but..) always shocks me even more when we play Tabu, sh eknows *nothing*, and when I say nothing, I mean nothing. Sie war erstaunt, als wir ihr (23J.) erzählten, dass Deutschland noch vor kurzem in Ost und West geteilt war; hatte keine Ahnung, wer Mahatma Gandhi war, und konnte mir auch nicht sagen, wer zwischen Kohl und Merkel Kanzler gewesen war. Das macht Tabu-Spielen mit ihr 'ne echte Herausforderung.


What does she want to glean from your teachings? Does she just want a brief factual overview, or does she want to explore the worldviews that have helped to shape the present?
First of all, Sinuhue, you are one hell of a creepy woman. I'm one of those who don't read poster names before reading a post, and I started reading yours and thought "Ach, yeah, that's the kind of post I hope Sin makes when she gets to it". Umm.
Facts are easy if you simply accept the version being given. But if she wants a better understanding of the kinds of worldviews that have been reflected in various societies over human history, and how worldviews have clashed and the results of this, then a perfectly linear telling may not be ideal. World history can be discussed geographically or globally, and both ways have their merits and drawbacks.
Why yes, how nice of you to put into better words exactly what my dilemma is.
You don't want to overwhelm her with trivialities. Dates are not all important, names are not all important...certain dates, places, etc may be, but should not be the focus.
Yeah, we agreed on that earlier in the thread; I know.
Whatever information you give her is going to be slanted in a certain way, no matter how hard you try...but if she understands that from the beginning, then she will be more able to use a filter when approaching any new information.
I think that won't be our problem, yes.
Then again, if time is of the essence,
It is only insofar as that I may not be able to hold her attention past our 30th birthday, approximately.
What you should be aiming for is helping her gain the skills to do her own research, to know how to filter and critique sources etc. If she is really interested, she needs to do the bulk of the work herself...a teacher should be focused on passing along skills...knowledge is constructed using those skills.

Umm, I guess you get pat for that, and if only because that was so perfectly Sinuhue-ish.

Can I subsitute a grope for a pat?

Starting with a very brief, sketchy overview of some major shifts in civilisations around the world could be a great start. It's always nice to have a roadmap.

Can I subsitute a grope for a pat?
Keep my thread clean! This is, uh, all educative and things.

Starting with a very brief, sketchy overview of some major shifts in civilisations around the world could be a great start. It's always nice to have a roadmap.
Finally, someone understands me! *sobs*

To get an idea of how you might structure that roadmap, Wikipedia is as useful as any encyclopaedia in that regard.

History of the World (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_world)

History of the World (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_world)

http://www.weebl.jolt.co.uk/history1.htm

I couldn’t help myself:(

To get an idea of how you might structure that roadmap, Wikipedia is as useful as any encyclopaedia in that regard.

History of the World (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_world)

*Has a look*

http://www.weebl.jolt.co.uk/history1.htm

I couldn’t help myself:(

That's.. different. *takes a step back and hides behind Sinuhue* Which, considering her height, is a rather feeble and more symbolic attempt.

according to the OP:Short story: We're talking a 21-year-old uni student of above average intelligence who for one reason or the other has never received any education to speak of, formal or informal, on both history and politics, to the extent that yes, she knows there's been two World Wars at some point of time, and that here in Germany, we vote for parties and somehow they then decide on a chancellor in some way and make bills and laws in the remaining time and that's called a democratic process, but to be quite frank, that is about it.

I have a question - I thought that European education was supposed to be great and infallible. This girl is a German.

I guess this explains the market for Bild.

I have a question - I thought that European education was supposed to be great and infallible. This girl is a German. What a pointless and inflammatory statement. Has the OP ever stated that European education is great and infallible? I'm sure there are other threads you can go pick fights in, as you strive to make the US look better than everywhere else.

I have a question - I thought that European education was supposed to be great and infallible. This girl is a German.

I guess this explains the market for Bild.

With your apparent inclination to make sweeping generalizations from the case of one girl (where it has explicitly been mentioned in the thread, several times, that there have been exceptional circumstances), you don't exactly paint yourself with the greatest of all brushes, either.

I think the market for BILD is more those people whom we have tried to educate on the facts, but who just run faster than intelligence ever can.

Start from 1900. Just 20th century items with the occasional flashback, for example, when talking about formation of Israel you might want to give a short history of Jews.

Keep EVERYTHING brief. You're lucky to have someone who actually wants to listen; their attention span is 40 seconds between big wars and fun factoids.

Start from 1900.
I don't think so, but would you maybe care to give an explanation of why you consider that a good idea?

You're lucky to have someone who actually wants to listen; their attention span is 40 seconds between big wars and fun factoids.

I regret to inform you that not everyone on here, much less around me IRL, is a hyperactive, media-scarred 14-year-old highschooler.

My prescription: Kelly's Heroes, The Dirty Dozen and The Great Escape. What else is there to know?
Excellent choices, I might say! :D
Don't ask, won't tell. Was Du nicht weißt, macht Dich nicht.. öh, den Kopf gegen die Wand schlagen?
Ojemine! Ich glaube, ich verstehe Dein Problem immer besser...
Oh, I feel so much like a traitor to her, but I just got the following message (after my inquiry to her as to where, when and what with we should start):
"[Oeckilein], du weißt doch, dass ich rein gar nix weiß! Also doch, ich weiß dass die Mauer gefallen ist [sie ist Ossi, she better], aber sonst.. [anonymized] war heut wieder ganz schockiert, da hat der Ministerpräsident von NRW geredet und ich hab gefragt, ob jedes Bundesland so einen hat, und, naja... also so halt."
Woah, was?!? That's crazy!
I'm trying to remain civil when people say such things. But one of my flatmates (brilliant mathematical mind, mind you, but..) always shocks me even more when we play Tabu, sh eknows *nothing*, and when I say nothing, I mean nothing. Sie war erstaunt, als wir ihr (23J.) erzählten, dass Deutschland noch vor kurzem in Ost und West geteilt war; hatte keine Ahnung, wer Mahatma Gandhi war, und konnte mir auch nicht sagen, wer zwischen Kohl und Merkel Kanzler gewesen war. Das macht Tabu-Spielen mit ihr 'ne echte Herausforderung.
Ich liebe Tabu! But how can one expect me not to resort to violence if I have to play with such idiots, eh?

First of all, Sinuhue, you are one hell of a creepy woman.
That's why we hold her so dear!
Can I subsitute a grope for a pat?
You could here. *points to self*
I think the market for BILD is more those people whom we have tried to educate on the facts, but who just run faster than intelligence ever can.
That statement only leaves me with one choice:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/Pergament.jpg

Start with an overview of blues and jazz, some Bach, Beethoven and Mozart, as well. Then move on to Moussorgsky and Tchaikovsky. Introduce Big Band and Frank Sinatra. And just when she least expects it a double whammy of Bill Halley and Buddy Holly. Then you can go on with the rest of it: Elvis, the Beatles, the Stones, etc. etc.

That should be all she really needs to know.

Other: I just hate elks.

When do you cover the Holy Roman Empire, I'm sure that you will, no doubt, quote Voltaire: "The Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire." (I don't remember where he writes it, but I'm sure it was he.)

I agree with the notion of starting with the Mesopotamian civilization. By starting with the acclaimed first civilization (while also attempting to have her define what it means for a civilization to be one--interaction for the win. I probably should also take this time to note that I strongly disagree with any style of teaching, since this is likely to be informal, where this friend of yours feels as if she shouldn't ask questions as soon as she has them. I feel that the only way an attempt to teach her world history [very briefly in all areas, as a full course would likely take many years/decades; you might also learn as much as she by the end] could work is by insuring that she reacts to what you tell her. Tragically, this is a point that the "traditional" US styles of teaching tend to ignore in my small experience with the classroom).

Beyond that, I think that you might need some sources to look at Chinese and Indian beginnings of civilization. During this course of this early stage, I would highly suggest looking (if you're not sure already) with your friend for what might be the key traits of a "civilization." In my own experience, I have found that civilization and civilized are not the same, and a civilization usually has a major water source, writing system, monumental architecture and some form of art (to which, all three of the above mentioned civilizations have).

During this early point, it might also be beneficial to looking into the appropriate time period's religions, easiest and most recommended being mesopotamia's. After that, I would suggest to let time pass and move onto the pre-Greeks--primarily concerned with their writing system and the "Tiger's gate". (The name of the specific crew you are to be looking for eludes me for the moment, so forgive me.)

From there, it would be an easy jump into early Greek civilization, noting, then, that this would (at first) ignore the popular studies of Socrates and his gang in favor of emphasized disunity between city-states and many other, earlier big names (which also happen to be eluding me at the moment: of them I can only tell what I remember. That certain men began an anti-religious movement of sorts that could be called philosophy--though I'm not sure if they called it that yet--and began looking into realms that could be called science, though they certainly were not called such. Again, please excuse the severe brevity.)

Now that the ugly stuff for that is done, I think you could probably jump into later Greece with your friend, noting soon into it the existence of Phillip the tard (drunkard, what'ver) of Macedon and his vastly more famous son, Alexander. Also, you might be able to start off this area of time by covering Socrates, Plato, and the bunch; after all, Aristotle is said to have been Alexander's teacher. You could jump away from Alexander's exploits before you get too far into it in favor of (hopefully re)covering the empire he is about to conquer in (my guess is) vengence for its earlier excursions into Greece, which should also have been covered--as well as the allied states behind Athens and Sparta.

Beyond that, it starts to get a bit easier since we're entering places of history that more people know more clearly (basically, less severe guess-work, though most of the above stuff is made fairly certain by many historians). Revisit China and the Indians before you get into the Romans (China, I think, will need almost as much time as Greece in order to catch up to the Han/Rome era of time, with all [three, in total] of their dramatic changes in dynasties and the development of Confucian thought near the start of the Han and whatnot).

That was all basically a long, very specific way of saying "Yeah, chronological with care is probably the way to go." While I do not think going strictly chronologically with a general world history is the way to go, I think that the idea of starting with the early stuff and moving, in sections, to the later stuff would be beneficial for the both of you.

Be sure to teach this stuff in a way that your friend understands and is willing to learn. Wiki does wonders for certain issues, but also beware that it isn't exactly the most reliable tool of the ever-fallable internets. Also remember that you are not teaching her every, little aspect of world history--as that would take an extraordinary amount of time that I'm sure neither of you really want to spend on these things. Try to go for things that you and her are interested in.

I suppose looking at it with a bit of humor could do us all some good, too. Not so much to belittle the poor lads fighting for their lives against the Persian horde, but enough to be able to laugh at specific, well-meaning jokes. Early Rome could not effectively be handled without a brief look at the Etruscians and their funny sarcophoguses--silly Etruscians.

Ojemine! Ich glaube, ich verstehe Dein Problem immer besser...

Und ich sag wo -wo?!- ist das Problem -das kann ich nicht verstehn-.. (you know Ganz Schön Feist?)
That's why we hold her so dear!
Mild correction: That's one of the things why. ;]

That statement only leaves me with one choice:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/Pergament.jpg
Heh. Thanks. I reciprocate. ;P

Start with an overview of blues and jazz, some Bach, Beethoven and Mozart, as well. Then move on to Moussorgsky and Tchaikovsky. Introduce Big Band and Frank Sinatra. And just when she least expects it a double whammy of Bill Halley and Buddy Holly. Then you can go on with the rest of it: Elvis, the Beatles, the Stones, etc. etc.

That should be all she really needs to know.
I shouldn't say this, but: I don't know exactly one quarter of the people/bands you mentioned, so.. *crawls back under that rock*

Other: I just hate elks.

You just lost. At everything. For life. ;P


I agree with the notion of starting with the Mesopotamian civilization. By starting with the acclaimed first civilization (while also attempting to have her define what it means for a civilization to be one--interaction for the win. I probably should also take this time to note that I strongly disagree with any style of teaching, since this is likely to be informal, where this friend of yours feels as if she shouldn't ask questions as soon as she has them. I feel that the only way an attempt to teach her world history [very briefly in all areas, as a full course would likely take many years/decades; you might also learn as much as she by the end] could work is by insuring that she reacts to what you tell her. Tragically, this is a point that the "traditional" US styles of teaching tend to ignore in my small experience with the classroom).
I agree.

Beyond that, I think that you might need some sources to look at Chinese and Indian beginnings of civilization. During this course of this early stage, I would highly suggest looking (if you're not sure already) with your friend for what might be the key traits of a "civilization." In my own experience, I have found that civilization and civilized are not the same, and a civilization usually has a major water source, writing system, monumental architecture and some form of art (to which, all three of the above mentioned civilizations have).

During this early point, it might also be beneficial to looking into the appropriate time period's religions, easiest and most recommended being mesopotamia's. After that, I would suggest to let time pass and move onto the pre-Greeks--primarily concerned with their writing system and the "Tiger's gate". (The name of the specific crew you are to be looking for eludes me for the moment, so forgive me.)

From there, it would be an easy jump into early Greek civilization, noting, then, that this would (at first) ignore the popular studies of Socrates and his gang in favor of emphasized disunity between city-states and many other, earlier big names (which also happen to be eluding me at the moment: of them I can only tell what I remember. That certain men began an anti-religious movement of sorts that could be called philosophy--though I'm not sure if they called it that yet--and began looking into realms that could be called science, though they certainly were not called such. Again, please excuse the severe brevity.)

Now that the ugly stuff for that is done, I think you could probably jump into later Greece with your friend, noting soon into it the existence of Phillip the tard (drunkard, what'ver) of Macedon and his vastly more famous son, Alexander. Also, you might be able to start off this area of time by covering Socrates, Plato, and the bunch; after all, Aristotle is said to have been Alexander's teacher. You could jump away from Alexander's exploits before you get too far into it in favor of (hopefully re)covering the empire he is about to conquer in (my guess is) vengence for its earlier excursions into Greece, which should also have been covered--as well as the allied states behind Athens and Sparta.

Beyond that, it starts to get a bit easier since we're entering places of history that more people know more clearly (basically, less severe guess-work, though most of the above stuff is made fairly certain by many historians). Revisit China and the Indians before you get into the Romans (China, I think, will need almost as much time as Greece in order to catch up to the Han/Rome era of time, with all [three, in total] of their dramatic changes in dynasties and the development of Confucian thought near the start of the Han and whatnot)

Hey, thanks for taking the time and care to write it like that. :]

I suppose looking at it with a bit of humor could do us all some good, too.
Don't worry, it lies in the nature of both of us that generous helpings of humor will always be served alongside any meal we can think of.

.. but okay, so I don't know when they happened.

No, this is not yet another "OMG look how stupid people can be" thread, although I may or may not feel like creating one. This is about a friend of mine, a request for help she made to me, and my asking for your help to answer that request.

Short story: We're talking a 21-year-old uni student of above average intelligence who for one reason or the other has never received any education to speak of, formal or informal, on both history and politics, to the extent that yes, she knows there's been two World Wars at some point of time, and that here in Germany, we vote for parties and somehow they then decide on a chancellor in some way and make bills and laws in the remaining time and that's called a democratic process, but to be quite frank, that is about it.

Now, we're very good friends, and have talked about the inacceptable nature of these shortcomings in her education (my point of view) and her refusal to see the importance of knowing more for quite a long time, with no tangible results whatsoever. Yesterday, to my utter surprise, I receive an email telling me that she's finally seen the light, and desperately asks me to educate her, then.

Uh. This is where I meet my challenge and ask you to help me: Where do I begin? And how? I'm aware I will have to link her /recommend further reading to her a lot anyway and can't explain everything myself, but even so: Which topic do I start with? Do I do an overview first? How detailed? Is there any nice resource anyone knows about on the web / in print about this they can recommend?

A random poll outlining a few options as I thought of them shall be added.
On the web there is wiki...

However there is a small books of excerpts from a much larger book on the origins of World War One, is it published by Penguin, i believe it is called The Origins of World War One.

It is a really awesome book for only 50 odd pages.

Btw, there is a very good book about the development of civilization called Guns, Germs and Steel, by Jared Diamond, that I recomend to anyone.

Its the best non-fiction book I´ve read. Its not for people who doesnt know anything about history, but for people that like history and would like to understand how it works.

I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if I'm repeating something already said by another. There is a surprisingly good series of comic books (I know, I have just advertised I'm a nerd, I'll get over it) called the Cartoon History of the Universe. It starts from the big bang, and moves on from there.

H.G. Wells, of all people, wrote a very good "History of the World" book and I think Penguin have a "History of the World" book aswell. They are quite short, considering what they have to cover. Short being under 1000 pages of a paperback sized book.

.. but okay, so I don't know when they happened.

No, this is not yet another "OMG look how stupid people can be" thread, although I may or may not feel like creating one. This is about a friend of mine, a request for help she made to me, and my asking for your help to answer that request.

Short story: We're talking a 21-year-old uni student of above average intelligence who for one reason or the other has never received any education to speak of, formal or informal, on both history and politics, to the extent that yes, she knows there's been two World Wars at some point of time, and that here in Germany, we vote for parties and somehow they then decide on a chancellor in some way and make bills and laws in the remaining time and that's called a democratic process, but to be quite frank, that is about it.

Now, we're very good friends, and have talked about the inacceptable nature of these shortcomings in her education (my point of view) and her refusal to see the importance of knowing more for quite a long time, with no tangible results whatsoever. Yesterday, to my utter surprise, I receive an email telling me that she's finally seen the light, and desperately asks me to educate her, then.

Uh. This is where I meet my challenge and ask you to help me: Where do I begin? And how? I'm aware I will have to link her /recommend further reading to her a lot anyway and can't explain everything myself, but even so: Which topic do I start with? Do I do an overview first? How detailed? Is there any nice resource anyone knows about on the web / in print about this they can recommend?

A random poll outlining a few options as I thought of them shall be added.

i say start with basic ideas and concepts of politics and government, without which a chronological rundown of events will either make little sense or will need tons of extra explaining as you go along.

i heartily recommend this book as a good introduction to government and political philosophy, which would be a great starting point http://www.amazon.co.uk/Introduction-Political-Thought-Conceptual-Toolkit/dp/0748616802/sr=8-2/qid=1168603640/ref=sr_1_2/203-7459496-9207943?ie=UTF8&s=books

.. but okay, so I don't know when they happened.

No, this is not yet another "OMG look how stupid people can be" thread, although I may or may not feel like creating one. This is about a friend of mine, a request for help she made to me, and my asking for your help to answer that request.

Short story: We're talking a 21-year-old uni student of above average intelligence who for one reason or the other has never received any education to speak of, formal or informal, on both history and politics, to the extent that yes, she knows there's been two World Wars at some point of time, and that here in Germany, we vote for parties and somehow they then decide on a chancellor in some way and make bills and laws in the remaining time and that's called a democratic process, but to be quite frank, that is about it.

Now, we're very good friends, and have talked about the inacceptable nature of these shortcomings in her education (my point of view) and her refusal to see the importance of knowing more for quite a long time, with no tangible results whatsoever. Yesterday, to my utter surprise, I receive an email telling me that she's finally seen the light, and desperately asks me to educate her, then.

Uh. This is where I meet my challenge and ask you to help me: Where do I begin? And how? I'm aware I will have to link her /recommend further reading to her a lot anyway and can't explain everything myself, but even so: Which topic do I start with? Do I do an overview first? How detailed? Is there any nice resource anyone knows about on the web / in print about this they can recommend?

A random poll outlining a few options as I thought of them shall be added.

Start with the Battle of Helm's Deep.

.. but okay, so I don't know when they happened.

No, this is not yet another "OMG look how stupid people can be" thread, although I may or may not feel like creating one. This is about a friend of mine, a request for help she made to me, and my asking for your help to answer that request.

Short story: We're talking a 21-year-old uni student of above average intelligence who for one reason or the other has never received any education to speak of, formal or informal, on both history and politics, to the extent that yes, she knows there's been two World Wars at some point of time, and that here in Germany, we vote for parties and somehow they then decide on a chancellor in some way and make bills and laws in the remaining time and that's called a democratic process, but to be quite frank, that is about it.

Now, we're very good friends, and have talked about the inacceptable nature of these shortcomings in her education (my point of view) and her refusal to see the importance of knowing more for quite a long time, with no tangible results whatsoever. Yesterday, to my utter surprise, I receive an email telling me that she's finally seen the light, and desperately asks me to educate her, then.

Uh. This is where I meet my challenge and ask you to help me: Where do I begin? And how? I'm aware I will have to link her /recommend further reading to her a lot anyway and can't explain everything myself, but even so: Which topic do I start with? Do I do an overview first? How detailed? Is there any nice resource anyone knows about on the web / in print about this they can recommend?

A random poll outlining a few options as I thought of them shall be added.

I wouldn't bother, she's in uni? Tell her to take a history course, I mean teachers are more qualified to teach then you are I guess.

Yesterday, to my utter surprise, I receive an email telling me that she's finally seen the light, and desperately asks me to educate her, then.

You do realise she wants you to shag her, not to teach her about economic depression in interwar Mitteleuropa, yes?

Considering they are both female, a pilow fight over books wearing nothing but underwear do sounds amazing.

Und ich sag wo -wo?!- ist das Problem -das kann ich nicht verstehn-.. (you know Ganz Schön Feist?)
Yup.
Mild correction: That's one of the things why. ;]
True.
Heh. Thanks. I reciprocate. ;P
Hehe. Sehr schön!

I shouldn't say this, but: I don't know exactly one quarter of the people/bands you mentioned, so.. *crawls back under that rock*
You're right - instead of admitting to that you simply should've looked'em up and go "I've known'em for years!". :D
I wouldn't bother, she's in uni? Tell her to take a history course, I mean teachers are more qualified to teach then you are I guess.
They'll kick her out of university and send her back to grade school!
Considering they are both female, a pilow fight over books wearing nothing but underwear do sounds amazing.
Only if we could watch, though!

However there is a small books of excerpts from a much larger book on the origins of World War One, is it published by Penguin, i believe it is called The Origins of World War One.

It is a really awesome book for only 50 odd pages.

Thanks, and even if I find it to not be the thing I'm looking for for her, it sounds like something *I* might be intersted in.. I'm good on WWII, but I've been looking for a good way of polishing my knoweldge on and around WWI.

Btw, there is a very good book about the development of civilization called Guns, Germs and Steel, by Jared Diamond, that I recomend to anyone.

I'm just done with that, and Collapse is currently sitting on my desk. :]

There is a surprisingly good series of comic books (I know, I have just advertised I'm a nerd, I'll get over it) called the Cartoon History of the Universe. It starts from the big bang, and moves on from there.

Now *that* is a good suggestion. She loves comics, in fact draws them herself, and she'll love that. Probably. I wouldn't know, I myself am not into comics at all.

H.G. Wells, of all people, wrote a very good "History of the World" book and I think Penguin have a "History of the World" book aswell. They are quite short, considering what they have to cover. Short being under 1000 pages of a paperback sized book.
Thanks for all the book recommendations, people, keep 'em coming. :]


i heartily recommend this book as a good introduction to government and political philosophy, which would be a great starting point http://www.amazon.co.uk/Introduction-Political-Thought-Conceptual-Toolkit/dp/0748616802/sr=8-2/qid=1168603640/ref=sr_1_2/203-7459496-9207943?ie=UTF8&s=books
Hey, thanks. All linky and shit. :]
Start with the Battle of Helm's Deep.
Oy, you! *pokes*

Umm.. huh? *wikis*
I noticed your sig, Sir.

I wouldn't bother, she's in uni? Tell her to take a history course, I mean teachers are more qualified to teach then you are I guess.
Sure, but a university level history course doesn't start anywhere near where she is, not ven the most basic ones.

You do realise she wants you to shag her, not to teach her about economic depression in interwar Mitteleuropa, yes?
No, we've been over that for over 2 years now.
Considering they are both female, a pilow fight over books wearing nothing but underwear do sounds amazing.
It sure was, but, as I say, two years ago.

Yup.
I very much approve of you. Were I at home and had my Favoritenliste, you'd get a cool pic now. I'm not, so you don't.

Hey, thanks. All linky and shit. :]


its a seriously good book... pretty much single-handedly got me through my first year of politics at university :P
its informative, yet easy to read, well written, engaging and not too heavy. i can't recommend it enough!

its a seriously good book... pretty much single-handedly got me through my first year of politics at university :P
its informative, yet easy to read, well written, engaging and not too heavy. i can't recommend it enough!

.. and of course, my uni library doesn't carry it. Nor does it have THIS (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/0954325532/qid%3D1115739564/302-2016742-9507258)book, but that's just a random note.

This thread is useless without pics.

Is she good looking? I mean, she fits the stereotypical definition of "airhead".

This thread is useless without pics.

Is she good looking? I mean, she fits the stereotypical definition of "airhead".

I've given up on trying to get you to read all parts of this thread.

Thanks, and even if I find it to not be the thing I'm looking for for her, it sounds like something *I* might be intersted in.. I'm good on WWII, but I've been looking for a good way of polishing my knoweldge on and around WWI.
I am pretty much like that too.
I guess it is because i had my Grandfathers and Great Uncles to give me the inspiration to look into these things but World War One there was no incentive, not many books about, no talk of great New Zealand Officers, World War Two had Double VC Charles Upham, Freyberg, the Tennis match which was the Desert War.

World War One for me, had Gallipoli and endless mud.

I am pretty much like that too.
I guess it is because i had my Grandfathers and Great Uncles to give me the inspiration to look into these things but World War One there was no incentive, not many books about, no talk of great New Zealand Officers, World War Two had Double VC Charles Upham, Freyberg, the Tennis match which was the Desert War.

World War One for me, had Gallipoli and endless mud.

Well, you see, as a German, I had "post-WWI era and run-ups till WWII and the general devastation during and following WWII" in school three times, so it's well known and remembered. I only possess a very dim recollection of 9th (I think?) grade covering of WWI. Hmm.