NationStates Jolt Archive

After some contemplation on the relation of Christianity, and various political ideologies, it has struck me as odd that variably both socialists and capitalists claim it is consistent with their beliefs. But is it?

Chavez also alluded to Jesus, saying: "I swear by Christ — the greatest socialist in history."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-01-10-chavez-venezuela_x.htm?csp=34

So, let's give it some thought. I am not too familiar with the Bible, but I am aware of some themes in it. Christ may be said to have a hands-off, even left-leaning attitude about him. Politically I believe it would impossible to consistently place him under any label, nor would this be anything other than exercise in futility.

So far so good. How can Christianity be reconciled with socialism though, when it amounts to nothing more than one of the most authoritarian religions out there? I do not mean this in the context of how its followers act. I mean it in terms of its whole context. God is an absolute Monarch, the highest King. Earthly kings are shunned not because they are kings, but because they take the role of God. Lucifer is expelled from Paradise for threatening this mighty monarch. The Angels are hierarchically organised. Heaven is a Kingdom, not a commune. This religion is authoritarian in every regard.

Consider more carefully why exactly Christianity has contempt for egoism. Is it because the religion is genuinely altruistic? Or is it because by so doing one seeks to elevate himself to personal godhood? Why are the weak and "selfless" powerful favoured? If anything, I think the Middle Ages with the Catholic theocracy was the most consistent political system ever to arise in a Christian context (excluding violations by man against man).

Thus, I ask: how can one consistently be in favour of either capitalism (as in laissez-faire) or anti-authoritarian variants of socialism and at once be Christian? They have either misunderstood their political ideologies, or the religion itself. Discuss.

A warning: I don't like spamming in my threads. Nor do I like topic deviations. Do not turn this into some interreligious war, or debate about the relative merits of capitalism, socialism or whatever. Debate it in terms of Christianity in the context of your ideology, and how you believe it can be reconciled consistently.

Yeah, but if we assume that God is omnipotent and totally just, then it doesn't really matter what he is because he's so damn good at what he does. If it isn't broke, don't fix it...

But then again, as a non-Abrahamic monotheistic henotheist I kind of view the whole thing as a little too specific and culturally biased for my tastes. I always figured heaven was something you chose, not the high court of God.

Yeah, but if we assume that God is omnipotent and totally just, then it doesn't really matter what he is because he's so damn good at what he does. If it isn't broke, don't fix it...
Sure. It'd be the perfect monarchy.

But then again, as a non-Abrahamic monotheistic henotheist I kind of view the whole thing as a little too specific and culturally biased for my tastes. I always figured heaven was something you chose, not the high court of God.
Perhaps, but I am sure a lot of the more fundamentalist (or rather, literalist) Christians out there view God as their Heavenly King.

Having God, a completely perfect entity who can do no wrong rule everything will cause no problems because he is perfect.

If you are human on the other hand, you are flawed in someway and therefore cannot be a completely autocratic with problems.

The idea is that no one has the authority to tell you what to do except God, so no man can be completely autocratic.

Sure. It'd be the perfect monarchy.

It doesn't sound too bad...


Perhaps, but I am sure a lot of the more fundamentalist (or rather, literalist) Christians out there view God as their Heavenly King.

I thought he was supposed to be their Heavenly Father moreso than their King. AFAIK, there have been very few kings who loved their people like their own children.

I thought he was supposed to be their Heavenly Father moreso than their King. AFAIK, there have been very few kings who loved their people like their own children.
Father is also what dictators are called quite often. It's very paternalistic, and thus rather authoritarian. Depending on how one interprets the Bible, God can either be a ruthless despot or a somewhat puritan entity.

Also, that Satan rebelled would indicate to me that not all is well and good in Heaven, if it existed.

Father is also what dictators are called quite often. It's very paternalistic, and thus rather authoritarian. Depending on how one interprets the Bible, God can either be a ruthless despot or a somewhat puritan entity.

Well, he would be ruthless but also infinitely loving and compassionate. A strange combination, but I always figured God would have to do some dirty work if he gets involved in things here.

Also, that Satan rebelled would indicate to me that not all is well and good in Heaven, if it existed.

My guess is that "Heaven" is a lot bigger and chaotic than we think it is...that God might not even be particularly important. I imagine it'll end up being a bunch of deities fighting for power on Earth while the Supreme God stands away from the war and lets them sort it out...

After some contemplation on the relation of Christianity, and various political ideologies, it has struck me as odd that variably both socialists and capitalists claim it is consistent with their beliefs. But is it?

More consistent with a charitable capitalism than with pure capitalism or any kind of socialism

So, let's give it some thought. I am not too familiar with the Bible, but I am aware of some themes in it. Christ may be said to have a hands-off, even left-leaning attitude about him. Politically I believe it would impossible to consistently place him under any label, nor would this be anything other than exercise in futility.

The system of government doesn't matter so long as it obeys God's Law. If it's a moral dictatorship, fine. If it's a moral democracy, fine.

So far so good. How can Christianity be reconciled with socialism though, when it amounts to nothing more than one of the most authoritarian religions out there? I do not mean this in the context of how its followers act. I mean it in terms of its whole context. God is an absolute Monarch, the highest King. Earthly kings are shunned not because they are kings, but because they take the role of God. Lucifer is expelled from Paradise for threatening this mighty monarch. The Angels are hierarchically organised. Heaven is a Kingdom, not a commune. This religion is authoritarian in every regard.

What earthly kings are shunned by Christians? There are many kings shunned by democrats and republicans and oligarchists, but not Christians. It's a matter of political ideology, not Christian morality. I challenge anyone to show me a verse from Scripture which overthrows earthly kings.

Consider more carefully why exactly Christianity has contempt for egoism. Is it because the religion is genuinely altruistic? Or is it because by so doing one seeks to elevate himself to personal godhood? Why are the weak and "selfless" powerful favoured? If anything, I think the Middle Ages with the Catholic theocracy was the most consistent political system ever to arise in a Christian context (excluding violations by man against man).

Hmmm, that's interesting, because that's what Christian reconstrunctionalists want, except they would prefer general Christianity to Roman Catholicism.

Thus, I ask: how can one consistently be in favour of either capitalism (as in laissez-faire) or anti-authoritarian variants of socialism and at once be Christian? They have either misunderstood their political ideologies, or the religion itself. Discuss.

There is no specific ideology embraced in Scripture regarding civil government and economics. If the system is obeying the Law of God and not overstepping the boundaries set up by God (the purpose of the civil government is to protect the people and the Church by use of the sword) then it is good and acceptable and we are required to obey it.

More consistent with a charitable capitalism than with pure capitalism or any kind of socialism
In total, it might be. If one considers how Heaven is run though, it gains an inherent authoritarian bent to it.

The system of government doesn't matter so long as it obeys God's Law. If it's a moral dictatorship, fine. If it's a moral democracy, fine.

I see.

What earthly kings are shunned by Christians? There are many kings shunned by democrats and republicans and oligarchists, but not Christians. It's a matter of political ideology, not Christian morality. I challenge anyone to show me a verse from Scripture which overthrows earthly kings.
The only verses I know of seem to suggest in a grudging fashion that the law should be obeyed. I'd be indebted to anyone who could provide some quotes on Christ's position on earthly rulers.

There is no specific ideology embraced in Scripture regarding civil government and economics. If the system is obeying the Law of God and not overstepping the boundaries set up by God (the purpose of the civil government is to protect the people and the Church by use of the sword) then it is good and acceptable and we are required to obey it.
I know. This is why I find it hilarious for one to allude to Christ as though he were a socialist (or libertarian, or whatever).

I thought he was supposed to be their Heavenly Father moreso than their King. AFAIK, there have been very few kings who loved their people like their own children.

King of Kings, Lord of Lords, we are but heirs to the throne.......the whole adopted bit that the Calvinists get hung up on and call "predestination"

In total, it might be. If one considers how Heaven is run though, it gains an inherent authoritarian bent to it.

I see.

Umm, not so much. I misunderstood you, sorry. We are mere Man and cannot in anyway compare to God. Even the angels cannot compare to Him and they are perfect! So, while it is certainly not sinful to model a civil government (as oppossed to Church government) after heaven, I wouldn't call it necessary. God gave us Laws to be followed regarding the civil goverment through the Prophets, His Son, and the Apostles. So long as we follow those, we are doing all that is required of us.

The only verses I know of seem to suggest in a grudging fashion that the law should be obeyed. I'd be indebted to anyone who could provide some quotes on Christ's position on earthly rulers.

Matthew 22:15-22 (ESV)
15Then the Pharisees went and plotted how to entangle him in his talk. 16And they sent their disciples to him, along with the Herodians, saying, "Teacher, we know that you are true and teach the way of God truthfully, and you do not care about anyone's opinion, for you are not swayed by appearances.[b] 17Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?" 18But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, "Why put me to the test, you hypocrites? 19Show me the coin for the tax." And they brought him a denarius.[c] 20And Jesus said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" 21They said, "Caesar's." Then he said to them, "Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." 22When they heard it, they marveled. And they left him and went away.

And Paul His Apostle says in Romans 13:1-7
1Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

And Peter says in Acts 5:29
29But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men.

I know. This is why I find it hilarious for one to allude to Christ as though he were a socialist (or libertarian, or whatever).

True, true.

King of Kings, Lord of Lords, we are but heirs to the throne.......the whole adopted bit that the Calvinists get hung up on and call "predestination"

Predestination =/= Adoption

Adoption is part of salvation. Salvation is made possible through predestination.

But that's off-topic.

For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.

It's beginning to sound an awful lot like feudalism. :D

How can Christianity be reconciled with socialism though, when it amounts to nothing more than one of the most authoritarian religions out there?

Where is the contradiction between socialism and authoritarianism?

So far so good. How can Christianity be reconciled with socialism though, when it amounts to nothing more than one of the most authoritarian religions out there? I do not mean this in the context of how its followers act. I mean it in terms of its whole context. God is an absolute Monarch, the highest King. Earthly kings are shunned not because they are kings, but because they take the role of God.
No particuarly, it is when kings attempt to cast themselves greater than God, or deny God that the problem comes in. Jesus, of course, used the famous render to Ceasar what is Ceasar's and render to God what is God's to denote the difference.

Lucifer is expelled from Paradise for threatening this mighty monarch. The Angels are hierarchically organised. Heaven is a Kingdom, not a commune. This religion is authoritarian in every regard.
This is Catholic dogma and isn't actually IN the Bible. There's nothing about the rankings of angels or Lucifer's fall.

Thus, I ask: how can one consistently be in favour of either capitalism (as in laissez-faire) or anti-authoritarian variants of socialism and at once be Christian? They have either misunderstood their political ideologies, or the religion itself. Discuss.
In terms of religious ideology, it would be hard to match Christanity with a political ideology (not that many people have tried). Jesus repeatedly said that His kingdom was not of this world. Again and again Christians are asked to "Set our (your) mind on things above and not on earthly things" noting that God's laws and commands are seperate from the political realities on the planet itself. So it wouldn't be right to say that Christains must be monarchists (since I know where you're going with this), but rather Christains must accept God's dominion in the more important areas of morality and spirituality rather than in political areas.

I guess the best way to put it would be to say that we have a King who lives over the sea. This King has sent us here to a far shore to live. He has given us laws on how to live, but cannot be contacted beyond that. His laws for a given area are absolute, but anything outside of them is up to us. So if we want to be a democracy, that's fine, if we want kings, or socialism, that is also fine. As long as it doesn't directly contradict the laws, we can arrange ourselves however we want.

Adding on to that though, I would like to say that one can use the Bible like statistics, meaning you can probably find something to show God's favor for whatever it is you're doing.

Where is the contradiction between socialism and authoritarianism?
If I am correct, socialism seeks to depose rulers, not recognise one as absolute and worship them. Depends on the variant of socialism of course.

It's beginning to sound an awful lot like feudalism. :D

:p

No, it's just saying that God has instituted the civil government for a reason and you are to obey it, unless it contradicts God. And then you are to only disobey the civil government in those things which disagree with God's Law.

You can't say "Ha! War of conquest, not of defense! Can't pay my taxes or stop at stop signs!"

No, you just refuse to fight in the war.

No particuarly, it is when kings attempt to cast themselves greater than God, or deny God that the problem comes in. Jesus, of course, used the famous render to Ceasar what is Ceasar's and render to God what is God's to denote the difference.
I see. In that fashion, earthly rulers are much like custodians (feudal lords, given that God is a King)?


This is Catholic dogma and isn't actually IN the Bible. There's nothing about the rankings of angels or Lucifer's fall.
Is it in the Apocrypha? I have some experience with Orthodox Christianity - if I recall, it too speaks of the fall and the celestial hierarchy.

So it wouldn't be right to say that Christains must be monarchists (since I know where you're going with this), but rather Christains must accept God's dominion in the more important areas of morality and spirituality rather than in political areas.

I didn't say that one must be a monarchist to be Christian. Merely that there is a degree of consistency with what went on in the Middle Ages (when the Divine Right of Kings was a means by which the Church could control the monarchs) and the overarching theme of the Bible. What I did seek to emphasize though is that it's a dubious practice to try and say the Bible justifies any specific politico-economic system, when it clearly doesn't.

Adding on to that though, I would like to say that one can use the Bible like statistics, meaning you can probably find something to show God's favor for whatever it is you're doing.
Exactly.

Is it in the Apocrypha? I have some experience with Orthodox Christianity - if I recall, it too speaks of the fall and the celestial hierarchy.

The are passages about the Fall, though we don't quite know the reasons for it happening or how it happened.

Note the middle paragraph.

Revelation 12
The Woman and the Dragon
1And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. 3And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.


Satan Thrown Down to Earth
7Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8but he was defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world--he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers[a] has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. 12Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!"


13And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood[b] on the sand of the sea.



Footnotes:

Revelation 12:10 Or brothers and sisters
Revelation 12:17 Some manuscripts And I stood, connecting the sentence with 13:1

There's also some stuff in the Prophets, but I'm not sure exactly where.

I see. In that fashion, earthly rulers are much like custodians (feudal lords, given that God is a King)?
I suppose that it one way of looking at it. The difference being though (unless you do believe in the divine right of kings or predestination), normally a feudal lord is appointed by the king (or his family was), but earthly rulers were not so appointed, they were chosen by man, not God. That is what gives people the athority to disobey should the ruler not follow God's law (and that is even for kings that God appointed, see David).

Is it in the Apocrypha? I have some experience with Orthodox Christianity - if I recall, it too speaks of the fall and the celestial hierarchy.
IIRC, that's where it is from. But those whole lists and names and such like were never in the Bible. They're a mixture of Jewish mystisim and other sources, drawn up in the Middle Ages.

I didn't say that one must be a monarchist to be Christian. Merely that there is a degree of consistency with what went on in the Middle Ages (when the Divine Right of Kings was a means by which the Church could control the monarchs) and the overarching theme of the Bible. What I did seek to emphasize though is that it's a dubious practice to try and say the Bible justifies any specific politico-economic system, when it clearly doesn't.
I can agree with that point.

The are passages about the Fall, though we don't quite know the reasons for it happening or how it happened.

Note the middle paragraph.

Correct me if I am wrong though, but Revelation speaks of what is to come, not what has already happened.

I suppose that it one way of looking at it. The difference being though (unless you do believe in the divine right of kings or predestination), normally a feudal lord is appointed by the king (or his family was), but earthly rulers were not so appointed, they were chosen by man, not God. That is what gives people the athority to disobey should the ruler not follow God's law (and that is even for kings that God appointed, see David).
Who else but the Church and those versed in divine lore could judge whether a King, or any other form of ruler, is disobeying the Lord though? ;) The Divine Right provided it an excellent means of subordinating earthly authority to Lordly authority (ignoring what really went on, of course). As I see it, it acted much like God's enforcer.

That many authorities now claim to be the truest and most holy bearers of God's word is another matter entirely. :D

Correct me if I am wrong though, but Revelation speaks of what is to come, not what has already happened.

Do we know that?

Like all prophecy it seems to be speaking about what happened before, what is happening right now, and what is to come.

Who else but the Church and those versed in divine lore could judge whether a King, or any other form of ruler, is disobeying the Lord though? ;) The Divine Right provided it an excellent means of subordinating earthly authority to Lordly authority (ignoring what really went on, of course). As I see it, it acted much like God's enforcer.

That many authorities now claim to be the truest and most holy bearers of God's word is another matter entirely. :D

See, that's where it's the responsibility of the people.

The Church has the power of the keys of Heaven, and the civil government has the power of the sword. They both have the power and responsibility to punish and to rule over the people, not over each other. But the people also have the responsibility to obey God and pray for and correct and work in and work for them both.