NationStates Jolt Archive

California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has said he intends to make the environment a "priority", and to make California a model for the rest of the USA to follow in this field. He has also promised to make health care available to all Californians, to build more schools and to increase public spending in general.

Fairly surprising, since I remember him initially campaigning for "fewer taxes"... until that blew up in his face and he realised that without sufficient taxation the State had no money to fund its policies.

His environmental stance isn't new, though. A while ago he criticised the Federal government for not ratifying the Kyoto Proticols, and promised that California would abide by the Kyoto agreement on its own.

See video report here (http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/news/americas.html).

I suppose this shows that even Republicans do good things sometimes. ;)

California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has said he intends to make the environment a "priority", and to make California a model for the rest of the USA to follow in this field. He has also promised to make health care available to all Californians, to build more schools and to increase public spending in general.

Fairly surprising, since I remember him initially campaigning for "fewer taxes"... until that blew up in his face and he realised that without sufficient taxation the State had no money to fund its policies.

His environmental stance isn't new, though. A while ago he criticised the Federal government for not ratifying the Kyoto Proticols, and promised that California would abide by the Kyoto agreement on its own.

See video report here (http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/news/americas.html).

I suppose this shows that even Republicans do good things sometimes. ;)
I'm fairly sure he threatened to veto a bill in the Assembly to establish universal healthcare because it was "socialised medicine." So, another politician U turn, it seems...

Here we go:

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2006/september/gov_schwarzenegger_.php

Recently the gubanator said something about california being like athens and sparta. Basically I gathered his point was since we won't let him become president he intends to become king of california and run the rest of the US by getting Ca to dictate to us.

I thought this funny.

On topic: I doubt anyone will give a shit about the environment in california for the most part eighteen months from now.

Here we go:

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2006/september/gov_schwarzenegger_.php

Interesting. Thanks.

Does he still drive a great big Hummer?

Not the most environmentally friendly mode of transport

Does he still drive a great big Hummer?

Not the most environmentally friendly mode of transport

Given that, in his speech, he explicitly mentioned the pollution caused by environmentally unfriendly cars, I seriously hope he doesn't.

Given that, in his speech, he explicitly mentioned the pollution caused by environmentally unfriendly cars, I seriously hope he doesn't.

*pictures Arnie trying to squeeze into a Toyota Prius*

*laughs*

Here we go:

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2006/september/gov_schwarzenegger_.php

At least he opposes single-payer health care.

It's probably not widely known outside of California, but there is already a payroll tax in place to provide for disability insurance. The max on that, next year, is $500.33. It isn't a big stretch to imagine yet another payroll tax imposed for this new social program.

Of course, illegals will benefit from the proposed health care system, but they won't be paying the payroll taxes that fund it, so there's still more benefit to being illegal in America.

I suppose this shows that even Republicans do good things sometimes. ;)

Either that, or Arnie is decided he can't get the Presidency on the GOP ticket, and is making the preparations for a leap from one horse to the other...

Of course, illegals will benefit from the proposed health care system, but they won't be paying the payroll taxes that fund it, so there's still more benefit to being illegal in America.

Why will illegals benefit?

100% health insurance as a policy actually disenfranchises illegals... because, when EVERY legal is insured, it is a simple matter to spot the illegal.

Which is irrelevent, anyway. People are people, no matter if they have the right 'papers'. Everyone needs healthcare.

Either that, or Arnie is decided he can't get the Presidency on the GOP ticket, and is making the preparations for a leap from one horse to the other...

Before we get too far, let's make it clear that Arnie can NEVER be President. Not even if he were appointed to a cabinet position and everyone else died. Why? He's not a natural born American citizen.

Either that, or Arnie is decided he can't get the Presidency on the GOP ticket, and is making the preparations for a leap from one horse to the other...

Assuming the law is ever changed to allow an Austrian-born to become President, that's an interesting hypothesis...

Before we get too far, let's make it clear that Arnie can NEVER be President. Not even if he were appointed to a cabinet position and everyone else died. Why? He's not a natural born American citizen.

So?

All the 'white' people here are imports, but that doesn't seem to stop them from having a stranglehold on the highest political office...

See, while Americans may treat it otherwise, the lawof the land was a human artifact, not something handed down by god. And that means, it can be changed.

Assuming the law is ever changed to allow an Austrian-born to become President, that's an interesting hypothesis...

He's played it cleverly so far... he has made himself look fairly moderate (which hasn't been too hard with the leanings of the GOP of recent years), made himself a clear platform of bi-partisan support, and been careful to not alienate Democrats on too many issues.

It isn't impossible to imagine a party shift, or even Electoral Votes cast across the party lines, if the time comes.

Why will illegals benefit?

100% health insurance as a policy actually disenfranchises illegals... because, when EVERY legal is insured, it is a simple matter to spot the illegal.

Which is irrelevent, anyway. People are people, no matter if they have the right 'papers'. Everyone needs healthcare.
They will benefit because the care will be provided at no cost to them. They will not be deported because the facilities providing the care will not be allowed to report them as illegal. No, that's not part of the proposal, but there are enough precedents to that to make it a reasonable assumption.

Every soul in the United States is already guaranteed health care at no cost, if they cannot pay. The Federal government has already mandated that hospitals provide emergency care for those that need it.

So?

All the 'white' people here are imports, but that doesn't seem to stop them from having a stranglehold on the highest political office...

See, while Americans may treat it otherwise, the lawof the land was a human artifact, not something handed down by god. And that means, it can be changed.
Sure it'll happen. Start holding your breath now.

Given that, in his speech, he explicitly mentioned the pollution caused by environmentally unfriendly cars, I seriously hope he doesn't.

And that goes for hollywood as well. They have gas guzzlers themselves and preach about protecting the environment. :rolleyes:

They will benefit because the care will be provided at no cost to them. They will not be deported because the facilities providing the care will not be allowed to report them as illegal. No, that's not part of the proposal...


At least you admit you are arguing with a strawman.

...but there are enough precedents to that to make it a reasonable assumption.


Yes. And wiretapping without a warrant could 'reasonably' be assumed to be an impossibility...


Every soul in the United States is already guaranteed health care at no cost, if they cannot pay. The Federal government has already mandated that hospitals provide emergency care for those that need it.

Rubbish.

There is a big difference between 'emergency' care and 'guaranteed health care at no cost'. Maybe rta victims are assured treatment, but - if it isn't immediately life-threatening there is no such guarantee... no matter how difficult or painful your complaint.

Either that, or Arnie is decided he can't get the Presidency on the GOP ticket, and is making the preparations for a leap from one horse to the other...

He can't run for President on the DNC ticket either. He was not born in the US.

Sure it'll happen. Start holding your breath now.

Why? I looked like I cared?

So?

All the 'white' people here are imports, but that doesn't seem to stop them from having a stranglehold on the highest political office...

I was born here. I was not imported here. Get a life.

He can't run for President on the DNC ticket either. He was not born in the US.

I assume, by now, you've caught up, and seen this has already been said, and addressed.

I assume, by now, you've caught up, and seen this has already been said, and addressed.

Ask me if I care!

I was born here. I was not imported here. Get a life.

Which of the Nations do you have official recognition from?

Ask me if I care!

Do you care?

I assume you must... I am, after all, reponding to your unsolicited responses to my post...

There is a big difference between 'emergency' care and 'guaranteed health care at no cost'. Maybe rta victims are assured treatment, but - if it isn't immediately life-threatening there is no such guarantee... no matter how difficult or painful your complaint.

You got it wrong there. Anyone that walks into an emergency room for any illness will be treated. That includes any illness, no matter how insignificant. The ER can't take the chance that it isn't an indicator of something more serious.

Which of the Nations do you have official recognition from?

According to my mother's side, we have Apache blood in the family.

According to my mother's side, we have Apache blood in the family.

That's not the question I asked. Which Nation do you carry a card for?

You got it wrong there. Anyone that walks into an emergency room for any illness will be treated. That includes any illness, no matter how insignificant. The ER can't take the chance that it isn't an indicator of something more serious.

And, I say you are talking out of your arse.

I could weigh the value of your 'opinion', but it means less than nothing against my real world experience as a legal immigrant living below the poverty line.

See, while Americans may treat it otherwise, the lawof the land was a human artifact, not something handed down by god. And that means, it can be changed.

It would take a constitutional amendment to do that. Quite a challenge.

That's not the question I asked. Which Nation do you carry a card for?

What do you mean by what nation? I was born in California and was raised in 3 different states. I currently have a PA ID card so I guess I carry a card from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. The US does not have a national ID Card.

It would take a constitutional amendment to do that. Quite a challenge.

Not really. Amendments have passed (and been rapidly revoked) on far more capricious grounds.

What do you mean by what nation? I was born in California and was raised in 3 different states. I currently have a PA ID card so I guess I carry a card from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. The US does not have a national ID Card.

The fact that you have to ask, is answer itself.

If you were a card-carrying member of one of the Nations, you'd know it.

The fact that you aren't, is what makes you 'an import'. The 'white' man is an interloper on these shores... no matter how many generations he can 'claim'.

Not really. Amendments have passed (and been rapidly revoked) on far more capricious grounds.

And it still took awhile for the 18th amendment to be passed.

Not really. Amendments have passed (and been rapidly revoked) on far more capricious grounds.
Only one ammendment has been revoked, and that took over a decade, hardly rapid.

There really isn't the political will for it. Outside of California, Arnie isn't extremely well liked.

The fact that you have to ask, is answer itself.

If you were a card-carrying member of one of the Nations, you'd know it.

The fact that you aren't, is what makes you 'an import'. The 'white' man is an interloper on these shores... no matter how many generations he can 'claim'.

Now you are being obtuse and it shows as you did not answer my question but dodged it with a rhetorical. I am in no way an import. You are an import as you stated yourself that you are an immigrant. I was not imported into here for I was born here. By being born here means I am not an import. I did not come here in the colonization days of America. I even told you that I do have Indian blood in me. That means, through geneology, I am native to this country as well. Now why don't you answer my friggin question about what Nation you are talking about. I'm sure it is not the Indian nation that inhabited the area I am in now.

Only one ammendment has been revoked, and that took over a decade, hardly rapid.


When you compare it to how long the status quo was before the amendment was introduced... and then how long the status quo was before it was revoked...


There really isn't the political will for it. Outside of California, Arnie isn't extremely well liked.

By Republicans?

Republicans would vote for any candidate that would put the GOP in the hotseat.

And I've not seen any noticable backlash against him from the Democrats...

Half-hearted support bi-laterally probably beats a concerted push on party lines.

The fact that you aren't, is what makes you 'an import'. The 'white' man is an interloper on these shores... no matter how many generations he can 'claim'.
Racism, pure and simple.

There is nowhere on this world where any human being can go and be an “interloper” just because of his or her race. We are all one humanity.

Now you are being obtuse and it shows as you did not answer my question but dodged it with a rhetorical. I am in no way an import. You are an import as you stated yourself that you are an immigrant. I was not imported into here for I was born here. By being born here means I am not an import. I did not come here in the colonization days of America. I even told you that I do have Indian blood in me. That means, through geneology, I am native to this country as well. Now why don't you answer my friggin question about what Nation you are talking about. I'm sure it is not the Indian nation that inhabited the area I am in now.

You say you have 'Indian blood'... but your opinion is irrelevent. If the Nations don't recognise you, you don't have enough to count.

You are an import, because your 'people' are not native. If you were a tiger, you'd still be a tiger, even if the first tigers came here 400 years ago. I'm an import of a few years, you of a few more. Simply being 'born here' matters nothing in real terms, it's just the way interlopers allow themselves to act like assholes towards more recent interlopers.

When you compare it to how long the status quo was before the amendment was introduced... and then how long the status quo was before it was revoked...
By Republicans?
Indeed. Most conservatives I know dislike him. They consider him immoral.
Not really. Prohibition has already been in some states since the 1860's.
Half-hearted support bi-laterally probably beats a concerted push on party lines.
Enough for three quarters of state legislatures to agree?

When you compare it to how long the status quo was before the amendment was introduced... and then how long the status quo was before it was revoked...



By Republicans?

Republicans would vote for any candidate that would put the GOP in the hotseat.

And I've not seen any noticable backlash against him from the Democrats...

Half-hearted support bi-laterally probably beats a concerted push on party lines.
The backlash happened a little over a year ago when he had believed his own hype and thought he had a mandate and tried to do an endo around the state legislature and his 'package' of propositions where voted down and everything he touched became tainted. All of a sudden he became 'bipartisan' and co-operative. His whole re-election was based on only his last year as governor.

He'd have to be a superstar political further than when he was originally elected to get the amendment passed, and those waters where well and truly tested back then. If they didn't have the momentum then they are not likely to build it up unless he does something truly truly amazing, and I can't even think of what that might be.

Racism, pure and simple.

Not racism... since racism implies that there is no good reason for the 'prejudice'.

The 'white' man is an uninvited illegal immigrant, 400 years ago. He brought the gifts of rape, murder, religious persecution and genocide.

Any 'fear' the Native has of the 'white' man, is more than justified.


There is nowhere on this world where any human being can go and be an “interloper” just because of his or her race. We are all one humanity.

I wonder if you use the same arguments when the topic is Israel, or Mexican immigration.

Indeed. Most conservatives I know dislike him. They consider him immoral.

Many conservatives I know feel the same about the current administration.

But a lot of people vote for the Party...


Enough for three quarters of state legislatures to agree?

I don't know. It's not impossible.

It wouldn't be right to consider him an interloper purely based on his race, after all...

Not racism... since racism implies that there is no good reason for the 'prejudice'.
All prejudice is irational.
The 'white' man is an uninvited illegal immigrant, 400 years ago. He brought the gifts of rape, murder, religious persecution and genocide.
I did not do those things. You can not blame or hold a man to anything for what his ancestors did. Feudalism is dead.
Any 'fear' the Native has of the 'white' man, is more than justified.
I would hope no one fears me.
I wonder if you use the same arguments when the topic is Israel, or Mexican immigration.
In fact I do.

The backlash happened a little over a year ago when he had believed his own hype and thought he had a mandate and tried to do an endo around the state legislature and his 'package' of propositions where voted down and everything he touched became tainted. All of a sudden he became 'bipartisan' and co-operative. His whole re-election was based on only his last year as governor.

He'd have to be a superstar political further than when he was originally elected to get the amendment passed, and those waters where well and truly tested back then. If they didn't have the momentum then they are not likely to build it up unless he does something truly truly amazing, and I can't even think of what that might be.

Except that, as you say... "All of a sudden he became 'bipartisan' and co-operative...." He didn't have the momentum then... but now he is actually better positioned for bilateral support, no?

Many conservatives I know feel the same about the current administration.

But a lot of people vote for the Party...
Aye.:(
I don't know. It's not impossible.

It wouldn't be right to consider him an interloper purely based on his race, after all...
No, it wouldn't, but since when has that ever mattered to US law?

You say you have 'Indian blood'... but your opinion is irrelevent. If the Nations don't recognise you, you don't have enough to count.

Now you are trying to split hairs. Guess what? Your opinion is irrelevent for I know where I come from. My ancestors may have arrived here from England and Ireland and everywhere else (after all, I am 15% french with Irish and other Western European nations) but I was BORN HERE as was my father and his father before him. I do not care if you think I was "imported" because I know that I was not. I did not move here nor was I moved here. I was born in this country and I am proud of that. If you cannot understand that then I feel sorry for you.

You are an import, because your 'people' are not native.

I'll disagree with you because of what I told you earlier. I am not going to fight you over this because it is not worth it.

All prejudice is irational.


Like most sweeping generalisations, and all absolute statements... this one is silly.

I have a 'prejudice' against Copperheads, with good reason.


I did not do those things. You can not blame or hold a man to anything for what his ancestors did. Feudalism is dead.


Feudalism is dead? In a federated nation that allows only certain special people to 'elect'? We have baronies, and we have barons. We just spell it different now.

And, let's be realistic... whether or not the blood is personally on your own hands, does nothing to reverse the genocide or protect endangered peoples.

The 'white' man should hold himself responsible for what was done in the name of Manifest Destiny.


I would hope no one fears me.


I emphasised 'fear' for etymological reasons.


In fact I do.

Good. As you should.

Many conservatives I know feel the same about the current administration.

But a lot of people vote for the Party...

That's true.

No, it wouldn't, but since when has that ever mattered to US law?

Good point, well made. :(

All prejudice is irational.

I did not do those things. You can not blame or hold a man to anything for what his ancestors did. Feudalism is dead.

I would hope no one fears me.

In fact I do.

I can't believe I am saying this but well said.

Now you are trying to split hairs. Guess what? Your opinion is irrelevent for I know where I come from. My ancestors may have arrived here from England and Ireland and everywhere else (after all, I am 15% french with Irish and other Western European nations) but I was BORN HERE as was my father and his father before him. I do not care if you think I was "imported" because I know that I was not. I did not move here nor was I moved here. I was born in this country and I am proud of that. If you cannot understand that then I feel sorry for you.


Being born here is something you are 'proud' of?

Why? You contributed nothing.... maybe a scream when the nurse spanked you. Your mother did all the work that day, if anyone should be 'proud'.

Being born here means you don't even have to know as much about this nation as an immigrant... because you don't have to pass a test for your citizenship. Again, hardly grounds for 'pride'.

You were born here... that's luck - it's where your mother's uterus was when you fell out. But your 'people' are foreign to these shores, no matter where fortuitous completion of gestation occured.


I'll disagree with you because of what I told you earlier. I am not going to fight you over this because it is not worth it.

But of course, 'it isn't worth fighting about' if you are one of the interlopers.

Being born here is something you are 'proud' of?

Why? You contributed nothing.... maybe a scream when the nurse spanked you. Your mother did all the work that day, if anyone should be 'proud'.

Oh nice job of missing the obvious.

Being born here means you don't even have to know as much about this nation as an immigrant... because you don't have to pass a test for your citizenship. Again, hardly grounds for 'pride'.

Oh now that's a bunch of bs as I am studying history at school and have a terrific knowledge of this country as i have studied US history and not the kind they teach in schools. Hell, in school, I was smarter in US history than even the History teacher I had. Hence why I was not educated in our sucky public or private (though most are not sucky) schools.

You were born here... that's luck - it's where your mother's uterus was when you fell out. But your 'people' are foreign to these shores, no matter where fortuitous completion of gestation occured.

Not foreign anymore as we have been here since the late 1500s. At first we were and when we spread across this great country, we were foreign to those territories too. Now we are not foreigners in our land.

The rest of your post, I'm just ignoring as you are now trying to bait me.

Except that, as you say... "All of a sudden he became 'bipartisan' and co-operative...." He didn't have the momentum then... but now he is actually better positioned for bilateral support, no?

No. He had momentum when he was elected, it's what made him think he could do an end run around the state legislature. That momentum wasn't enough to get his package passed, much less to force an amendment (and I think it actually requires more than just an amendment, but since I don't know for sure I'll let it ride.)

There are far easier sells on bipartisanship that don't require ratifying shit that make trying to push Arnie through is comically not worth it. Just because he beat a Democratic candidate that had taken a beating in an extrodinairely negative primary who all but gave up in the months leading up to the election it doesn't make him the political golden child that would be required for either party to bother with trying change the constitution to allow him to be a candidate.

If you are arguing that it is possible, yeah, sure. Lots of things are. But this is so unlikely as to not be worth entertaining, especially considering that at the heighth of his popularity it was and was dismissed.

No. He had momentum when he was elected, it's what made him think he could do an end run around the state legislature. That momentum wasn't enough to get his package passed, much less to force an amendment (and I think it actually requires more than just an amendment, but since I don't know for sure I'll let it ride.)

There are far easier sells on bipartisanship that don't require ratifying shit that make trying to push Arnie through is comically not worth it. Just because he beat a Democratic candidate that had taken a beating in an extrodinairely negative primary who all but gave up in the months leading up to the election it doesn't make him the political golden child that would be required for either party to bother with trying change the constitution to allow him to be a candidate.

If you are arguing that it is possible, yeah, sure. Lots of things are. But this is so unlikely as to not be worth entertaining, especially considering that at the heighth of his popularity it was and was dismissed.

We'll see. He looks set to have an interesting run with a couple of issues the might play well to both factions, right now... and he's arguably going to be possibly even more supportable by his 'opposition' than by his 'own' party on a number of issues...

Oh now that's a bunch of bs as I am studying history at school and have a terrific knowledge of this country as i have studied US history and not the kind they teach in schools. Hell, in school, I was smarter in US history than even the History teacher I had. Hence why I was not educated in our sucky public or private (though most are not sucky) schools.


Do you even realise what you said?

You claim to be an exception... you are the exception that proves the rule.

"I was smarter in US history than even the History teacher"... think about that... a citizen the teaches the subject, and on exceptional student is better versed in the history?

You make my point for me.


Not foreign anymore as we have been here since the late 1500s. At first we were and when we spread across this great country, we were foreign to those territories too. Now we are not foreigners in our land.


How many legs does a dog have, if you count it's tail as a leg?

Four. Calling a 'tail' a 'leg' doesn't make it true.


The rest of your post, I'm just ignoring as you are now trying to bait me.

Or, alternatively, I was just responding to your assertion that it 'isn't worth it', by pointing out that the people with privelige usually do say that.

Do you even realise what you said?

Yes

You claim to be an exception... you are the exception that proves the rule.

Hate to break it to you but there are many like me that do have an excellent understanding of US History.

"I was smarter in US history than even the History teacher"... think about that... a citizen that teaches the subject, and an exceptional student is better versed in the history?

Shocking isn't it? What do you expect from the US Public School System?

You make my point for me.

Only in your mind.

How many legs does a dog have, if you count it's tail as a leg?

Four. Calling a 'tail' a 'leg' doesn't make it true.

:rolleyes: That is one bad analogy. What's the matter? Could not think of a better one. I did not move here. I was born in this country. In accordance with law, that makes me a native regardless of how my ancestors got here. And by law, I'm talking International and not national.

Or, alternatively, I was just responding to your assertion that it 'isn't worth it', by pointing out that the people with privelige usually do say that.

Privelige? HA! My priveliges comes from what my Parents gave me when I was younger. Now the priveliges I have is what the town, county, state, and federal governments choose to give me to go along with the rights I have in accordance with the US Constitution.

Hate to break it to you but there are many like me that do have an excellent understanding of US History.


And not all of them are born here. More importantly, those who are born here are not required to know more than the immigrant... they are not liable to have their citizenship revoked because they are know-nothings.


Shocking isn't it? What do you expect from the US Public School System?


Again - you make my point for me.. the immigrant MUST know more, if he is going to receive his citizenship.

Public School System or no - that is an excuse.


Only in your mind.


No - you've repeated it, quite visibly.


:rolleyes: That is one bad analogy. What's the matter? Could not think of a better one.

I didn't create the analogy, I roughly quoted one of the more important figures of American history.

Surprisingly, given your claims to historical expertise, you seem to have missed that.


I did not move here. I was born in this country. In accordance with law, that makes me a native regardless of how my ancestors got here. And by law, I'm talking International and not national.


Since this 'nation' was already occupied before the 'white' man came a-raping, maybe it is the law of the (real) natives that is important...?


Privelige? HA! My priveliges comes from what my Parents gave me when I was younger. Now the priveliges I have is what the town, county, state, and federal governments choose to give me to go along with the rights I have in accordance with the US Constitution.

All of which are artifacts, built on what was stolen from, or left on the bodies of, the original natives.

And not all of them are born here. More importantly, those who are born here are not required to know more than the immigrant... they are not liable to have their citizenship revoked because they are know-nothings.

Indeed and that is a crime shame..

Again - you make my point for me.. the immigrant MUST know more, if he is going to receive his citizenship.

How the hell that does prove your point? It does not prove anything.

Public School System or no - that is an excuse.

Agreed. It is no excuse that our children do not know the history of their own nation. Its a shame that it has been so watered down, it becomes meaningless.

No - you've repeated it, quite visibly.

Nope. As I said, it is only in your mind.

I didn't create the analogy, I roughly quoted one of the more important figures of American history.

Surprisingly, given your claims to historical expertise, you seem to have missed that.

:rolleyes: Abraham Lincoln was indeed an important American however, in the context of what we are talking about, it is a bad analogy.

Since this 'nation' was already occupied before the 'white' man came a-raping, maybe it is the law of the (real) natives that is important...?

Since they either lost wars or were forced to move by Andrew Jackson by violating treaties that he signed with them, their "nations" still exist but do not have power as they once did. Thanks President Jackson.

All of which are artifacts, built on what was stolen from, or left on the bodies of, the original natives.

True but it does not matter now now does it? No it does not.

How the hell that does prove your point? It does not prove anything.


How does it prove the point? Because my original assertion that the immigrant has to know more than the 'citizen' is borne out by the fact that immigrants DO have to know enough to pass the citizenship test, and that you freely admit (and, let's face it, the evidence is clear) that most American citizens probably couldn't pass the same test.



True but it does not matter now now does it? No it does not.

It doesn't matter to you, because you are one of the people that got the good end of the deal. If it was your historical tribal lands, holy sites, sacred ground... history, symbolism, women... that had been violated, you might have a deifferent opinion.

That's the thing - what you have was stolen from the real natives. They haven't 'given' anything to you... you are still an interloper on their lands.

And, it being their lands, it is THEIR opinion of whether you are an interloper that is important... not yours.

We'll see. He looks set to have an interesting run with a couple of issues the might play well to both factions, right now... and he's arguably going to be possibly even more supportable by his 'opposition' than by his 'own' party on a number of issues...

You're vastly over-estimating his current political capital. Look, to pull this off he'd need to do the political equivelent of rescuing a baby from a well while fending off a lion attacking an orphanage in the middle of single handedly putting out a fire by sheer force of will. It's a far cry from asking people to 'be Californians' in a speech or passing a few bond proposals.

There are easier cats in both camps that it's simply not even worth considering.

How does it prove the point? Because my original assertion that the immigrant has to know more than the 'citizen' is borne out by the fact that immigrants DO have to know enough to pass the citizenship test, and that you freely admit (and, let's face it, the evidence is clear) that most American citizens probably couldn't pass the same test.

No doubt that they won't. I probably could though as would alot of people who do have an interest in history. No doubt that you do have to know alot about US history and there was a time here in this country where it was mandatory that you have complete knowledge of our history. That has slackened off over time and now it sucks major ass. That is why I am a big supporter of Education Reform.

It doesn't matter to you, because you are one of the people that got the good end of the deal.

Did I? I do not believe I did.

If it was your historical tribal lands, holy sites, sacred ground... history, symbolism, women... that had been violated, you might have a deifferent opinion.

That explains the Mid-East Crisis now doesn't?

That's the thing - what you have was stolen from the real natives. They haven't 'given' anything to you... you are still an interloper on their lands.

Did I say that the land was not taken? No I did not. There was a time when we lived peacefully with the Indians. To bad that attitude did not prevail. This country would be a totally different country. However, to say that me personally is a foreigner is totally incorrect to make.

And, it being their lands, it is THEIR opinion of whether you are an interloper that is important... not yours.

Well now they are integrated into this country and have a full voice in it.

Now I'm off so that I can finish my back to school shopping for the last time.

You're vastly over-estimating his current political capital. Look, to pull this off he'd need to do the political equivelent of rescuing a baby from a well while fending off a lion attacking an orphanage in the middle of single handedly putting out a fire by sheer force of will. It's a far cry from asking people to 'be Californians' in a speech or passing a few bond proposals.

There are easier cats in both camps that it's simply not even worth considering.

I'm not necessarily saying 'he' needs to do anything. I don't know why you assume that the drive to remove the unconsitutional prevention of occupation of one certain job title, must come from one of the vested interests.

There are easier candidates in both camps, this is true... but there is something of a partyline division over which offered candidate would be better for both parties. Sure - there are options in each party that might garner better unilateral support... but I don't know how many candidates would garner better bi-lateral support.

No doubt that they won't. I probably could though as would alot of people who do have an interest in history. No doubt that you do have to know alot about US history and there was a time here in this country where it was mandatory that you have complete knowledge of our history. That has slackened off over time and now it sucks major ass. That is why I am a big supporter of Education Reform.

...

Now I'm off so that I can finish my back to school shopping for the last time.


This has been very amusing to read and follow, thanks for that. :D