NationStates Jolt Archive

First please take a look at this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gubiP3mP3Ds"

I'm not interested in whether their views are right or not, I'm more interested in the wider picture.

My initial reaction to this woman is that she is mentally ill. But how does that explain the other memebers of the Church? They are mostly relatives of Phelps so is this a genetic illness? Is it through conditioning? She must have reasonable intelligence to be a lawyer but is it some other mental affliction? Is she psychotic and bringing up her children in the same way? Was she abused as a child? As I said I could dismiss one person as mentally ill but 70 to 100 of them? Or is that still the answer? I'm interested iny our views - not on her "preaching" but on how this group came to be in one place and from 1 family.

And is there anything we can do (or indeed should do) about it?

broken URL

Sorry,

Not good with the whole forum thiing

Try this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gubiP3mP3Ds

Think that works. Same questions apply.

Lol my first reaction was "Damn she's fugly!"

But yeah she seems to be clinically retarded.

my opinion is that all people have different opinions, as such there will always be those who’s opinions I find disgusting and no doubt my opinions will send some people into a rage but it’s the tapestry of life as long as there not attacking anybody there perfectly fine

Though that doesn’t stop me from thinking there opinions are bullshit to the highest degree

As I said it's not their opinions I'm intersted in. These are clearly off the scale of nastiness. But how did so many people in 1 family get to be this way? And what about what is happening to their children?

BTW - holding a placard at someone's funeral rejoying in their death - I could be open to categorising that as an attack.

Since my net connection is sucky now, I'll go ahead and guess you mean Fred Phelps wife or one of his church.


As I said I could dismiss one person as mentally ill but 70 to 100 of them? Or is that still the answer?

I'm not sure if there is an official name for it, but people are generally highly emotive, which cuts back on their ability to make rational thoughts. The greater number of a group with similar ideals, the more strength emotional influence has, and consequently, less rational decision making ability. And usually, such groups are held together by a cult figure who either through sheer force of will or charisma, leads the group.

Belief/faith is a very powerful emotional tool for manipulation.

Look at the number of cults throughout history. Many of the famous ones do things most rational people wouldn't do. Mass suicides by poison, that group that decided to immolate themselves, chemical attacks (that Japanese cult), Scientology, the Westboro asylum/church. All of them have had central cult figures from which their word was gospel and regularly suppressed dissent.

It's brainwashing essentially, with the leaders generally telling their followers that their somehow above the rest of humans. i.e. possess special powers, divine, prophet, etc, etc.


And is there anything we can do (or indeed should do) about it?

Well, generally, most cults kind of dissipate after a few hard knocks and the removal of their leaders, so issuing shoot to kill orders on cult leaders would be a good first step. Make sure the kill order is specified to the post of cult leader, and not the individual holding the post. Sometimes, the death of a cult leader just makes room for another equally charismatic/psychotic leader. If leaders keep dying, it eventually filters down to even the most thick headed donkey.

Beyond that, observing the cult members to make sure they don't do anything stupid. If they want to commit mass suicide by drinking poison or torching themselves, let them, although that's not likely. Most mass suicides are done at the order of the leader who convinces them that they're going to a "better place".

Is this legal? Heck no. Is this just? Depends on your viewpoints. Is it fair? The world isn't fair. Should it be done? If you're pragmatic.

Cults are like cancer, or gangrene. If you leave them be, they'll grow malignant, and might cost you more than you're willing to pay. Prevention is better than cure. Cult followers generally have very poor sense of independent will. Better to break their spirit early and turn them into more productive people.

I can be a nice person, but I can be very ruthless when needed. And cults, like cancer, need a ruthless person to make the final decision if the patient is to survive.

The world's full of assholes. For some reason these clowns manage to get on tv a lot. Which is odd, because there is less than a hundred of them.

I guess they just take their bibles seriously.

As I said it's not their opinions I'm intersted in. These are clearly off the scale of nastiness. But how did so many people in 1 family get to be this way? And what about what is happening to their children?

BTW - holding a placard at someone's funeral rejoying in their death - I could be open to categorising that as an attack.

it's kind of logical that so many people from one family get to be this way. you take over a lot from your parents.

what i do find strange is that they are carrying placards wich say: "god is your ennemy". aren't they crazy christians, so wouldn't they believe in the love of god etc.

The way shes always smiling scares me

First please take a look at this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gubiP3mP3Ds"

I'm not interested in whether their views are right or not, I'm more interested in the wider picture.

My initial reaction to this woman is that she is mentally ill. But how does that explain the other memebers of the Church? They are mostly relatives of Phelps so is this a genetic illness? Is it through conditioning? She must have reasonable intelligence to be a lawyer but is it some other mental affliction? Is she psychotic and bringing up her children in the same way? Was she abused as a child? As I said I could dismiss one person as mentally ill but 70 to 100 of them? Or is that still the answer? I'm interested iny our views - not on her "preaching" but on how this group came to be in one place and from 1 family.

And is there anything we can do (or indeed should do) about it?

Not any sort of mental health expert here, but from what I know of the group she is a part of, methinks it is more cult-like indoctrination.

The way shes always smiling scares me

I guess outside of hating gay people, she has a full and happy life.

But how did so many people in 1 family get to be this way?

its caused when a family is set up like a carbon copy of the 1940’s the kids are discouraged from individual thought and so copy there parents

Hence why there is such a drive from fanatics to close public schools

And what about what is happening to their children?

I’d say it’s a miracle that any religious fanatics children managed to turn out like there parents but I would say the odds of this line continuing is slim to none (the dictatorship rule applies to families as well IMHO)

I could be open to categorising that as an attack.

Which it is

The way shes always smiling scares me

If you was making that much money and getting that famous by saying some bullshit for about 5 minuets I’m sure you would be smiling too :p

The way shes always smiling scares me

Life is sunnier once your brain stops functioning.

As I said it's not their opinions I'm intersted in. These are clearly off the scale of nastiness. But how did so many people in 1 family get to be this way? And what about what is happening to their children?

BTW - holding a placard at someone's funeral rejoying in their death - I could be open to categorising that as an attack.

Phelps psychologically and physically abused his children to such an extent that most of them are as damaged as him.

First, as a Christian who believes that God ought to be thanked and praised in all things and as a Christian who thinks that all things bad which happen to you are God's judgement upon you, I think this woman is nuts.

But I would also like to point out that no one has proven them wrong. All anyone does is scream "They're crazy!" Try reasoning with them from the Bible, and you might actually get somewhere.

Religion is like a lobotomy, only without the messy surgical procedure.

The strict and rigid conditioning and memetic indoctrination does a nice number on a child's psychological health.

Woman=crazy.
Even as a Christian I have to say she's nuts. She's a disgrace to humanity, let alone mankind. Protesting at a funeral? Pretty soon, I'll expect she'll have a funeral, the way she's going.
Jeez, for once, I'm on Faux New's side. Never again.

But I would also like to point out that no one has proven them wrong. All anyone does is scream "They're crazy!" Try reasoning with them from the Bible, and you might actually get somewhere.

I don't actually think you can reason with this kind of people (as this implies their rational somehow), but still, what I found most disturbing* about the video was the way the moderators tried to "interview" her... they didn't let her answer the questions they posed her, they insulted her... why did they invite her in the first place if they did not agree with her spouting bullshit?


* of course, that's only because I knew what to expect from her

If you want to see crazy you should see ol' Fred himself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AD7yk_WxTM&mode=related&search=

Ford deserves hell more than Saddam?
Phelps deserves hell.

it takes a lot for me to agree with hannity

First please take a look at this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gubiP3mP3Ds"

Just to help people out, you might mention what it is - a "Fox News" interview with Shirley Phelps-Roper, daughter of Fred and spokesperson for the WBC.

Unfortunately, like Non Aligned States, I'm on a poor connection/system and not really able to watch the video. But, I'm a bit familiar with the whole thing, so I'll give it a go.

I'll also add this: I had a friend who became (and still is, AFAIK) pretty deeply involved in the "Church of Scientology" cult about 7 years ago, and began pressuring me and other students in his improv acting class to get into it. Because of, and through, that, I got rather well informed on cults.

So, as for your questions, the behavour of the members of the WBC is pretty basic behaviour of members of the abusive/destructive type of cults that practice deceptive psycological mind control in the form of "brainwashing".

These cults are chacterised by a charismatic authoritarian leader who often claims devine powers. Fred Phelps fits that to a T. They are also characterised by deception and mind control. The mind control comes from controling the behavior, information avilable to, and the thoughts and emotions of a person (the BITE theory). For more on how this works see the cahpter on it in Steven Hassen's book on cult mind control:http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/books/rtb2.htm

(The author is a psychologist and councelor who specializes in "exit counseling" for cults. He has first hand experience, as he's a former member of the Unification Chuirch - aka the Moonies. The wiki for the BITE theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_control#BITE_model_of_Steven_Hassan) serves as a good intro.)

Also note that Phelps' WBC has serveral related ideas to the Christian Identity movement, a cultish and largely racist ideology.

I am shocked. I'm a Christian, and I don't agree with what she's saying at all. It's crazy people like these that give all Christians a terrible name. God does not hate gays, he did not send 9/11 to punish mankind, and it is not normal that everyone in the community should despise your church.

As for her having a mental condition; no, I don't think that she does. I just think that she has conditioned her mind with these extremist views of the world. I pity the kids that are sent to the church.

Also, was anybody else distracted by the fact that one side of her face was singificantly wider than the other? I'm not criticizing people born with apparent 'imperfections', (I am far from perfect; which is one of the reasons why I have never posted a picture of myself on these forums) it just got me wondering. I mean, if her church is mostly her family and everybody else hates her, then perhaps her parents were second cousins... You get my drift.

But I would also like to point out that no one has proven them wrong. All anyone does is scream "They're crazy!" Try reasoning with them from the Bible, and you might actually get somewhere.

i think no one is challenging there beliefs for two reasons

1. they feel no need to i.e all see the same reason already to think they are crazy so no need to explain

2. even if the woman is right and it is proved to all, not many people would believe in what she says anyway because it is horrible, therefore their is no need to prove em right or wrong cuz no one cares

we cud run through the whole free will thing and human evil etc to prove her wrong but we've already been through it all


this woman's almost as evil as me ffs she has to be stopped

I'm sorry, for the first time... Ever... I can't quite get my head around her mind set... I think... Hang on... Let me watch that video again...

OK... I think... I think she sees herself as a crusader, but also as some saintly, non-earthly person. She believes it is her place to salt "the cup of the fury and wrath of God" for the families of the killed soldiers... She also complains that the "mean things that you [Fox, or the rest of the world, who knows] are saying" can't bring back a "single one" of the "dead soldiers" or "nine-eleven victim"... Yet is willing to fire "Thank God for IEDs", "Thank God for Dead Soldiers", etc etc, at the families as she sees it is her place.

She also seems to think that those who suffer her God's wrath - who's form apparently is deaths in Iraq and terrorist attacks - are rightfully killed, yet at the next moment is referring to "nine-eleven victim"s (emphasis mine)...

She then seems to think that it is the public's need to 'Obey' the Scripture, which will supposedly save them from God's revenge, and more importantly, her revenge (the protests, etc). Of course, if she herself was obeying her 'Scripture', she would not take any form of vengeance, but there you are.

In fact, she generally seems to have some difficulty in separating "The Lord your God" from herself... She, it seems, is excercising God's "curse".

She notes that no one can "bring back" the soldiers by "throwing your [fists? Threats?] at us"... Here, I presume she means, by "us", her Merry Men. Sorry, her 'Church'. Which does strike me as somewhat hypocritical.

Just a tad.

She notes that "no one is innocent", but that it is the people outside her group's sins that are causing the "wrath of God" to befall the troops. Or "young men", I think is the term she uses. She also seems to believe that her behaviour is "obey[ing]" the Word of her God. She believes that 'her lot' do not "flip him off" by not refusing to "behave" themselves, it appears.

Oh, she also doesn't consider herself to be American. She notes that the American nation rises with "one voice" in a view that opposes her own.

Erm... To summarise, it would appear she is a backwards nutcase who considers herself to be higher than mankind, who is always right, who can barely construct a simple sentence let alone an argument. She also appears to have no knowledge of the limits of human thought, and no opinion as to one what can be expected to believe...

Not half as fun as most religious wackos I know. Although I would like to meet her in person, if only to attempt to further understand exactly how backward and misguided she is...

I don't actually think you can reason with this kind of people (as this implies their rational somehow),

Most of them are quite rational, which is why a lot show no or few qualms with what they are doing. Their premises (sinfully) do not include a God Who loves all His creation unconditionally, so they have no problem acting the way they do. If we are able to convince them that God is Love (which is screamed in the Bible) then they must change their actions and some of their positions or we prove them to be irrational. But, so far as I have seen, no one has tried to prove anything to them.

but still, what I found most disturbing* about the video was the way the moderators tried to "interview" her... they didn't let her answer the questions they posed her, they insulted her... why did they invite her in the first place if they did not agree with her spouting bullshit?


* of course, that's only because I knew what to expect from her

I found that to be very disturbing also. Every theological point she said I agree with (but she left the most important things out, the things which would change her actions completely around). But her actions are inexcusable. However, the interviewers were not showing any moral superiority at all.

i think no one is challenging there beliefs for two reasons

1. they feel no need to i.e all see the same reason already to think they are crazy so no need to explain

2. even if the woman is right and it is proved to all, not many people would believe in what she says anyway because it is horrible, therefore their is no need to prove em right or wrong cuz no one cares

we cud run through the whole free will thing and human evil etc to prove her wrong but we've already been through it all


this woman's almost as evil as me ffs she has to be stopped

God's love for His creation and His commandments for us to reflect His love would stop them in their tracks if they had any concern for what Scripture says.

God's love for His creation and His commandments for us to reflect His love would stop them in their tracks if they had any concern for what Scripture says.

Let's be honest for a moment shall we? Humans in general have a tendency of twisting whatever they've invested their faith in (religion, philosophy, stock market), into whatever they want.

It's not what they believe in that matters. What matters is the strength of their belief. With said belief, anything contrary to that is rejected automatically.

If Fred Phelps were to stand in front of a speeding bus one day, she'd either find new prophet to deify or she'd be utterly shattered. Much better the latter than former.

AAAGGHHH, my brain!
The way shes always smiling scares me
I noticed that too. It's damn creepy, grinning like a loon (well, that's not surprising, come to think of it) when you're repeatedly saying how God is raining death upon people as punishment for their sins.

Hehehehe, Christians are funny.

If the Bible was a reliable source of information on what the Christian God wants, the Phelps freaks would be right. She's not the hypocrite, it's all you other Christians with self-determined ethics who're hypocritical. If you don't like hating yourself, wanting everyone dead & dying, and praising Jesus Christ & God every time someone suffers or dies for no fucking reason, then stop pretending to be Christians. It's a death cult. The Phelpites are just honest about it.

to me the Phelps fella sounds like Bush

I don't think there is much to be gained through theological debate with them. People have tried - there are examples on You Tube of a minister debating with them. They just twist everything round to their view point (i.e. the Bible says Gerald Ford is going to hell, Love thy neighbour was not to be taken literally.)

I have been wondering if the children should be taken away from them as they are so damaging, but seeing an interview on Tyra Banks the children have no friends anyway so they are unlikely to marry outside the church, and as they are already related their choices will be limited. Maybe they will just die out.

I'm not surpised by the anti gay, anti jweish, anti muslim stuff. We have see all of that before. It is wrong but the politics of "different = evil" is an old story.

It is the picketing at a funeral. The compete lack of being able to recognise another person's pain. Does that not make them psychopaths?

Which brings me back to the children I guess. Will they too not grow up to be psychopaths and could one of them go that step further one day and inflict retribution of their own?