NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, so since I graduated from college in Dec. I've been looking for a job since Grad School doesn't start until Fall. Well it's now been almost a month since I graduated, and I still don't have a job. Apparently having a bachelors means shit. I've done all the things I'm susspose to do. Apply for the job, call a week later, etc. Still nothing. I do have the option to be a substitute teacher, but see, that would defeat my reason for avoiding being a full time teacher. I do not have the patience or tolerance to babysit 90 students in a day for shitty pay. So, I either have the option of continuing my job search, try to go into business myself, or being a substitute teacher. However, the day I do become a substitute teacher is the same day I schedule a prostate exam. Just had to get that off my chest.

Uh... no one ever said that a BA/BS automactially would get you a job, just that you stood a far better chance of getting a good one than someone with a high school diploma.

Take a shit job. That's the way it works.

In the time between my undergrad and graduate degrees, I folded t-shirts in a silkscreen shop, and I did shit work for my landlord cleaning rentals and painting houses. You do what you've got to instead of whining like a kid.

Ok, so since I graduated from college in Dec. I've been looking for a job since Grad School doesn't start until Fall. Well it's now been almost a month since I graduated, and I still don't have a job. Apparently having a bachelors means shit. I've done all the things I'm susspose to do. Apply for the job, call a week later, etc. Still nothing. I do have the option to be a substitute teacher, but see, that would defeat my reason for avoiding being a full time teacher. I do not have the patience or tolerance to babysit 90 students in a day for shitty pay. So, I either have the option of continuing my job search, try to go into business myself, or being a substitute teacher. However, the day I do become a substitute teacher is the same day I schedule a prostate exam. Just had to get that off my chest.
What did I tell you about arts degrees?

Bachelor's degrees are pretty much worthless. No-one admits that in public however, because it would blow the scam and put unemployment through the roof.

I wouldn't mind so much, but I see so many kids taking out debts that will take them longer than they have lived to pay off. And people who know better encourage them to do so.

Start your own business. Americans don't usually know what they are paying for anyway, so if you think long and hard enough I'm sure you can think of a way to seperate them from their hard borrowed dollars.

Pizza places usually work well. High mark ups, and all cash.

what was your major?

Bachelor's degrees are pretty much worthless. No-one admits that in public however, because it would blow the scam and put unemployment through the roof.

I wouldn't mind so much, but I see so many kids taking out debts that will take them longer than they have lived to pay off. And people who know better encourage them to do so.

Start your own business. American don't usually know what they are paying for anyway, so if you think long and hard enough I'm sure you can think of a way to seperate them from their hard borrowed dollars.

Pizza places usually work well. High mark ups, and all cash.
I think you'd have better luck finding Osama Bin Laden in Canada than finding a college student with enough funds for a start-up after graduation.

Wow, a whole month (December no less).... You mean no one handed you a six figure income with company car and summer home in the Hamptons in exchange diploma, like turning in a coupon or gift certificate? You've been robbed...

Or, you know, had unrealistic expectations. One of the two.

what was your major?

It was History. In my defense, couple my History BS with two Masters would've landed me in any archiving job in the country. Right now History BS is pretty much doing shitty.

Wow, a whole month (December no less).... You mean no one handed you a six figure income with company car and summer home in the Hamptons in exchange diploma, like turning in a coupon or gift certificate? You've been robbed...

Or, you know, had unrealistic expectations. One of the two.

I just want a job I can almost tolerate. It doesn't have to be my dream job, but at least it gives me money.

I think you'd have better luck finding Osama Bin Laden in Canada than finding a college student with enough funds for a start-up after graduation.

Actually, Pizza places require very little to start up. Doubtless a fraction of the cost of a college edumacation. Also there are a variety of federal small business loans for start ups and the like.

I'm not suggesting a rival chain to domino's you know.

History major?

I hope you like teaching high school, cause that's what you're pretty much stuck with unless you have a talent for writing.

History major?

I hope you like teaching high school, cause that's what you're pretty much stuck with unless you have a talent for writing.

I actually do have a talent for writing, and as I've said before, I do plan on getting two masters in Grad School so I can avoid teaching.

Well yeah. All us liberal arts majors have a hard time getting a job. Keep at it, you will find something. If you're good enough to get a bachelors, you're good enough to find a job.

It was History. In my defense, couple my History BS with two Masters would've landed me in any archiving job in the country. Right now History BS is pretty much doing shitty.

Yeah. I'm in chemical engineering with a minor in history. I like history, but I also ike chemistry. And I like money.

A BS in History?
This is how I see it:
B.S. - BS (as in bull...)
M.S. - More of the Same
Ph.D. - Piled Higher and deeper

How many BA's do you have?
The point of college is not to guarantee you a job, but to give you the skills to get one. That means being flexible and willing to do something that is not necessarily within your degree of preference.
If you have only one degree I suggest you get another one. The more degrees you have and the more work experience you have the more marketable and desirable you are to employers.

How many BA's do you have?
The point of college is not to guarantee you a job, but to give you the skills to get one. That means being flexible and willing to do something that is not necessarily within your degree of preference.
If you have only one degree I suggest you get another one. The more degrees you have and the more work experience you have the more marketable and desirable you are to employers.

I would but, if you have actually read the OP, I've stated that I am between schools right now, and the grad school doesn't start until the Fall.

Yeah. I'm in chemical engineering with a minor in history. I like history, but I also ike chemistry. And I like money.

Chemical Engineering is for teh n3wbs. Computer is were it is at.

In other news, the Pope is Catholic and bears defecate in the woods. ;)

I would but, if you have actually read the OP, I've stated that I am between schools right now, and the grad school doesn't start until the Fall.

You still have to be flexible. What employer in your field is going to hire what is essentially a temp? You're probably going to have to work outside your field until grad school starts. That's what happens when you graduate in an off semester.

What is the market like for computer builders?

Chemical Engineering is for teh n3wbs. Computer is were it is at.

You mean the future isn't plastics anymore?

Chemical Engineering is for teh n3wbs. Computer is were it is at.

The dotbomb lucky lottery folded in 2000. The golden wonka housing ticket is where it is at now.

What on earth gave you the idea that having a BA in history would guarantee you a job? Not even my friends who majored in tech/engineering fields, at a top-ranked university, were silly enough to think that a bachelor's degree was going to guarantee them a job.

Good luck with the job hunt, though. :fluffle:

You mean the future isn't plastics anymore?

Not US plastics.

What is the market like for computer builders?

The dotbomb lucky lottery folded in 2000. The golden wonka housing ticket is where it is at now.

From what I've heard(still in school), the market is quite strong. We make the highest 5 years out of school (compared to other engineering disciplines), and UBC found that after 15 years the are still one of the highest.

Since the dotcom bubble, so many people have decided to go in another direction, that the market is short laborers which means wages are up.

The dotbomb lucky lottery folded in 2000. The golden wonka housing ticket is where it is at now.

Only for web programmers essentially ... they usually sucked at anything else in the computer industry though

Networking, Computer design, infrastructure mantinance, server administration, databasing focus, ANYTHING in the security field . All of them have wide open markets, all you got to avoid is being a programmer lol (specially web programmer)

It's not so much building computers as much as software development, network technicians and systems management that has a good job market right now

Well, duh.

I came to the realisation during my first year of university that i'd need to find a minimum wage job to keep me going for a few years after I graduate. You'll have to swallow your pride and do the same, Wilgrove.

From what I've heard(still in school), the market is quite strong. We make the highest 5 years out of school (compared to other engineering disciplines), and UBC found that after 15 years the are still one of the highest.

Since the dotcom bubble, so many people have decided to go in another direction, that the market is short laborers which means wages are up.

Programming and web dev is a bit saturated yet, but for the most part the fields that I listed are wide open. I had no problems turning down two or three job offers for 70 + thousand a year starting when I just had my BS and decided to hit the masters (before I started them though)

It's not so much building computers as much as software development, network technicians and systems management that has a good job market right now

Software dev is a bit on the down (at least traditional style, if you are good and can one off or contract work there is some big bucks) but the rest you stated are in high demand. Specially networking/Network security fields

Programming and web dev is a bit saturated yet, but for the most part the fields that I listed are wide open. I had no problems turning down two or three job offers for 70 + thousand a year starting when I just had my BS and decided to hit the masters (before I started them though)

Prolly because most people in the industry are supposed to have at least some hacking skill.

Ok, so since I graduated from college in Dec. I've been looking for a job since Grad School doesn't start until Fall. Well it's now been almost a month since I graduated, and I still don't have a job. Apparently having a bachelors means shit. I've done all the things I'm susspose to do. Apply for the job, call a week later, etc. Still nothing. I do have the option to be a substitute teacher, but see, that would defeat my reason for avoiding being a full time teacher. I do not have the patience or tolerance to babysit 90 students in a day for shitty pay. So, I either have the option of continuing my job search, try to go into business myself, or being a substitute teacher. However, the day I do become a substitute teacher is the same day I schedule a prostate exam. Just had to get that off my chest.


Its because your black.



*looks at accusing eyes*

Oh come on, someone was going too say it eventually.

Prolly because most people in the industry are supposed to have at least some hacking skill.

If ya got the skills penetration tester is a big bucks field too ... They are moving me to a new position to cover our entire security infrastructure (probably in may)

Big time bucks for skills like that

A bachelor's is like a high school diploma these days. Mind, with the aging population, some entry level jobs offer decent wages now, unlike when I was twenty...

A bachelor's is like a high school diploma these days. Mind, with the aging population, some entry level jobs offer decent wages now, unlike when I was twenty...

I have no problem with Entry Level Jobs, just the Sub. Teacher job I have a problem with.

Not US plastics.

There's a lot more chemistry than just plastics...

There's a lot more chemistry than just plastics...

Has no one seen The Graduate?

Has no one seen The Graduate?
Actually, I haven't either, but it is sitting atop my DVD player in its Netflix sleeve as I type this.

Uh... no one ever said that a BA/BS automactially would get you a job, just that you stood a far better chance of getting a good one than someone with a high school diploma.

Except that I know a lot of people barely a high school diploma or GED who have management jobs and a lot of people with BA's who are working landscaping or McDonald's for minimum wage.

It's not the degree that gets you the job, it's who you know and if you don't know anyone, it's on your people skills. You have to know how to sell yourself.

Except that I know a lot of people barely a high school diploma or GED who have management jobs and a lot of people with BA's who are working landscaping or McDonald's for minimum wage.

It's not the degree that gets you the job, it's who you know and if you don't know anyone, it's on your people skills. You have to know how to sell yourself.

Well I'm screwed then, because I have very little people's skill.

Well I'm screwed then, because I have very little people's skill.

Well hey, sex sells. If you catch my drift.

Well hey, sex sells. If you catch my drift.

Ok, with female it's easy. All they have to do is put on tight shirt to make their breast look like it's about to pop out, and wear skirt that shows JUST enough. But I'm a guy, so I don't know what the hell I'm susspose to do to make "sex sells" work for me.

Ok, with female it's easy. All they have to do is put on tight shirt to make their breast look like it's about to pop out, and wear skirt that shows JUST enough. But I'm a guy, so I don't know what the hell I'm susspose to do to make "sex sells" work for me.

Do what you said for the girl. You'd be surprised.

Do what you said for the girl. You'd be surprised.

ROFL

Ok, with female it's easy. All they have to do is put on tight shirt to make their breast look like it's about to pop out, and wear skirt that shows JUST enough. But I'm a guy, so I don't know what the hell I'm susspose to do to make "sex sells" work for me.

Do what you said for the girl. You'd be surprised.

You just may not get the demographic you're expecting. ;)

Do what you said for the girl. You'd be surprised.

Huh? I'm not following.

Just go up to her and say your looking for the Statue of Liberty...

Just go up to her and say your looking for the Statue of Liberty...

Ok, why?

Ok, with female it's easy. All they have to do is put on tight shirt to make their breast look like it's about to pop out, and wear skirt that shows JUST enough. But I'm a guy, so I don't know what the hell I'm susspose to do to make "sex sells" work for me.

Wear pants that are just tight enough to show off your natural bulge. A cucumber rapped in tinfoil never hurts, as well.

Wear pants that are just enough to show off your natural bulge. A cucumber rapped in tinfoil never hurts, as well.

I may go with a cucumber. I have a few golf balls, do you think that'd help?

I may go with a cucumber. I have a few golf balls, do you think that'd help?

Couldn't hurt. Also, a couple nice pieces of ham in the rear could work wonders if you are assless.

Couldn't hurt. Also, a couple nice pieces of ham in the rear could work wonders if you are assless.

As a matter of fact I am Assless.....

Huh? I'm not following.

Put on a tight shirt that shows off your pecs, and wear the shortest skirt legal in your state, and go stand on the street corner. You'll be selling sex before you know it.

Put on a tight shirt that shows off your pecs, and wear the shortest skirt legal in your state, and go stand on the street corner. You'll be selling sex before you know it.

ahh, no thanks. I don't have a need to bend over anytime soon.

As a matter of fact I am Assless.....

Well there ya go. Problem solved.

Take a shit job. That's the way it works.

In the time between my undergrad and graduate degrees, I folded t-shirts in a silkscreen shop, and I did shit work for my landlord cleaning rentals and painting houses. You do what you've got to instead of whining like a kid.
Nothing wrong with house-painting. I've done that and it was one of my more enjoyable student jobs.
Hell, I used to get up at 4.30am to cycle 20 km to a marquee company, starting work at 6am and sometimes not finishing until 8.30pm. I was on call for any major jobs so it wasn't regular so when they called it was always going to be long hours. Only got paid $7US /hr too, with time and half after 10 hours.
Working on farms over Summer was great - again long hours but the pay wasn't as bad and it was great working out in the sun after being cooped up in a lecture hall for 8 months.

NZ has a thing called Student Job Search where you could find all sorts of jobs, from 1 day to permanent part time. I used them a lot to get through my degrees. Unlike others, I wasn't too fussy about the job - as long as it cover my rent I was willing to do most anything.
Doing gardening jobs were prob the best, espesh if for retirees. They'd always spoil me rotten. I'd work for an hour - 2 at the most - just cleaning their yard up. Then tea break (homemade scones with jam and cream) followed by another couple of hours tidying, then a big lunch, work, afternoon tea and then paid in cash.
It was thinking about those sorts of jobs that kept me going through crap ones


Walking clockwise around a 40 foot long table collating pages for 8 hours a day for 7 days straight cause the printer's collating machine had broken down and they had a company report due for some stockholder's meeting has to rate as one of the worse jobs I've done in terms of boredom and getting a stiff neck from leaning the same way for 4 hours without a break.

Ok, why?

See the movie Midnight Cowboy

-snip-

Some of the ads for summer house painters claim it can rival oil sand money from the north.:rolleyes:

From what I've heard(still in school), the market is quite strong. We make the highest 5 years out of school (compared to other engineering disciplines), and UBC found that after 15 years the are still one of the highest.

Since the dotcom bubble, so many people have decided to go in another direction, that the market is short laborers which means wages are up.

I have no doubt that you'll make more money than an environmental engineer (and who wants to drive the big poo digesting machine anyway?), but, speaking as an engineer myself, I will tell you that it is not the most stable field to be in. You'd be surprised how many engineers across all disiciplines lock themselves into one particular area of their discipline (esp. hi-tech majors) only to find themselves obslete 10-15yrs into their careers. (This happened to a very good friend of mine. He actually had the opportunity to be a contractor for a while and make tonnes of dough even, but he turned it down because he was company loyal, three years later they sent his job to china).

At that point you hope you can go into management, or you start selling life insurance. It sucks, but there it is.

Some of the ads for summer house painters claim it can rival oil sand money from the north.:rolleyes:
I'm sure it can, as long as you're prepared to work 23 hours a day, and be on methampetamines the entire time.
"wooo..gottagottagottagottagottagottagotta...paintpaintpaintpaintpaintpaint ...gottagottagottagottagottagottagotta..."

speaking as an engineer myself, I will tell you that it is not the most stable field to be in.

What kind of engineer are you?

What kind of engineer are you?

Forensic. :eek:

Forensic. :eek:

Thats's cool. I'm shooting for chemical.

Thats's cool. I'm shooting for chemical.
Chemical is good. They are making high salaries. I am going for electric though, I like shocky things.

Ok, so since I graduated from college in Dec. I've been looking for a job since Grad School doesn't start until Fall. Well it's now been almost a month since I graduated, and I still don't have a job. Apparently having a bachelors means shit. I've done all the things I'm susspose to do. Apply for the job, call a week later, etc. Still nothing. I do have the option to be a substitute teacher, but see, that would defeat my reason for avoiding being a full time teacher. I do not have the patience or tolerance to babysit 90 students in a day for shitty pay. So, I either have the option of continuing my job search, try to go into business myself, or being a substitute teacher. However, the day I do become a substitute teacher is the same day I schedule a prostate exam. Just had to get that off my chest.

We are most definitely glad you're not going into teaching. With an attitude like that, the kids will learn nothing and they will make your life a living hell.

It was History. In my defense, couple my History BS with two Masters would've landed me in any archiving job in the country. Right now History BS is pretty much doing shitty.

With an undergrad degree in history, what did you expect? Did you even find out what jobs would be available to you after you graduated?

With my BA in English I went straight into a publishing job, didn't like it, temped as a secretary, went into media marketing for seven years. Could have gone into public relations, or many jobs requiring writing. Finally decided to be a teacher and have never looked back.

What marketable skills do you have?

Actually, Pizza places require very little to start up. Doubtless a fraction of the cost of a college edumacation. Also there are a variety of federal small business loans for start ups and the like.

I'm not suggesting a rival chain to domino's you know.

Depends on one thing: location, location, location. My cousin owned a pizzeria for something like five years and barely broke even. Now works for Sleepy's and is making tons more.

Ok, with female it's easy. All they have to do is put on tight shirt to make their breast look like it's about to pop out, and wear skirt that shows JUST enough.

Oink oink.

Me, I actually had to, like, you know, speak properly, dress properly, and have, you know, like, skills? That they needed? And like, a proper resume, and like having done things in my college career that, like, could be useful to an employer? Like internships, and scholarships, and stuff like that?

I'd also worked from the time I was in high school with a shit receptionist job at H&R Block during tax season, worked at the college itself in freshman registration and the writing center, worked as a cashier at Macy's, temped as a office worker, worked at a tiny textbook publishing company, worked in a large media marketing corporation for which I got a certificate in desktop publishing, and thence into teaching.

Ok, so since I graduated from college in Dec. I've been looking for a job since Grad School doesn't start until Fall. Well it's now been almost a month since I graduated, and I still don't have a job. Apparently having a bachelors means shit. I've done all the things I'm susspose to do. Apply for the job, call a week later, etc. Still nothing. I do have the option to be a substitute teacher, but see, that would defeat my reason for avoiding being a full time teacher. I do not have the patience or tolerance to babysit 90 students in a day for shitty pay. So, I either have the option of continuing my job search, try to go into business myself, or being a substitute teacher. However, the day I do become a substitute teacher is the same day I schedule a prostate exam. Just had to get that off my chest.
You think a month is bad? I've been surviving on benefits and cash in hand day-to-day jobs for six months since getting my History BA. Come back in five months and whinge.

Has no one seen The Graduate?

Are you trying to seduce me? ;)

Do you have any marketable skills?

Bingo. It only took 68 or so posts.

Depends on one thing: location, location, location. My cousin owned a pizzeria for something like five years and barely broke even. Now works for Sleepy's and is making tons more.

Well, yes. Obviously you have to put a little thought into it. That's what seperates good investments from bad investments.

Also, I'm guessing your cousin was doing this in NY/NJ where the market is saturated/super competitive.

Do you have any marketable skills?

Now you tell him.

Ok, so since I graduated from college in Dec. I've been looking for a job since Grad School doesn't start until Fall. Well it's now been almost a month since I graduated, and I still don't have a job. Apparently having a bachelors means shit. I've done all the things I'm susspose to do. Apply for the job, call a week later, etc. Still nothing. I do have the option to be a substitute teacher, but see, that would defeat my reason for avoiding being a full time teacher. I do not have the patience or tolerance to babysit 90 students in a day for shitty pay. So, I either have the option of continuing my job search, try to go into business myself, or being a substitute teacher. However, the day I do become a substitute teacher is the same day I schedule a prostate exam. Just had to get that off my chest.

When I got my BS, I had been looking for a job a semester before graduation. In total, I had looked for a year and found zip for jobs, and only a handful of interviews that were actually looking for alot more experience. After getting my MA, I managed to find a job within a month. I was way over qualified for the position (an associates degree or experience was minimum), but being part of a large company it provided opportunity for growth. Don't be afraid to start low on the ladder. Most people have to regardless of the credentials. If you are good, you won't be on the bottom for long.

Well, yes. Obviously you have to put a little thought into it. That's what seperates good investments from bad investments.

Also, I'm guessing your cousin was doing this in NY/NJ where the market is saturated/super competitive.

Pennsylvania, actually, and out in one of the suburban towns, but in a strip mall with a small crowded lot. The food was EXCELLENT, don't get me wrong -- my cousin went to culinary school and also had worked as a chef in a number of chains before. He made as much as possible from scratch.

What really drove the final nail into the coffin was when the county ripped up the road -- and left it ripped up for a year and a half, two years.

Pennsylvania, actually, and out in one of the suburban towns, but in a strip mall with a small crowded lot. The food was EXCELLENT, don't get me wrong -- my cousin went to culinary school and also had worked as a chef in a number of chains before. He made as much as possible from scratch.

What really drove the final nail into the coffin was when the county ripped up the road -- and left it ripped up for a year and a half, two years.

Well that just sounds like really bad luck with the road more than anything else. I mean, no plan is 100%. I would still rate opening a pizza shop a better investment than a history degree however.

Since we're all being so caring and sharing here, I'll tell my sorry tale.

I've got a BA and an MA in philosophy. Both of which mean nothing to anyone who employs me.

I work as a live sound engineer, and am hired not on the basis of a piece of paper, but on the basis of me having a modicum of skill which people want. Rather than just having a general bit of paper I have a specific selling point.

I learnt this skill by volunteering for year after year after year in an arts centre and then working my way up to the giddy heights of shitty gigs for nominal fees or no fees at all.

The difference between me and someone who has done a course in Music Technology or the like is that despite the fact that I have some strange gaps in my knowledge I have a definite specific marketable skill.

Now in my mid thirties I make slightly above minimum wage (somewhat below when I figure in my overheads), but I get to do something I deeply love.

******

"I started with nothing and worked my way up to extreme poverty"

******

Advice to the OP: you seem to want to do archival work, so go find some place that does that kind of thing and beg your way into an internship or a work placement or the like while supporting yourself doing oddjobs elsewhere or flipping burgers. This will mean that come actually looking for employment you can fix any potential employer with a steely eye and tell them straight up "Yes, I have a skill that you want, and I'm pretty darn good at it too", rather than just relying on a piece of paper which effectively states that you went to most of the lectures you should have and handed in passable written work when asked.

Well that just sounds like really bad luck with the road more than anything else. I mean, no plan is 100%. I would still rate opening a pizza shop a better investment than a history degree however.

Depends. If the history degree were coupled with some relevant experience -- say working in even the uni library in the archives...

And yes, there was a good deal of bad luck connected to it. Too bad, too -- I've eaten my cousin's cooking and at his restaurant. It should have been a go. :)

Ok, so since I graduated from college in Dec. I've been looking for a job since Grad School doesn't start until Fall. Well it's now been almost a month since I graduated, and I still don't have a job. Apparently having a bachelors means shit. I've done all the things I'm susspose to do. Apply for the job, call a week later, etc. Still nothing. I do have the option to be a substitute teacher, but see, that would defeat my reason for avoiding being a full time teacher. I do not have the patience or tolerance to babysit 90 students in a day for shitty pay. So, I either have the option of continuing my job search, try to go into business myself, or being a substitute teacher. However, the day I do become a substitute teacher is the same day I schedule a prostate exam. Just had to get that off my chest.

Very few schools are pressed for teaching positions. Not to mention, if you are in the US, the coaches have to teach something.

Since we're all being so caring and sharing here, I'll tell my sorry tale.

How is that sorry? You're doing what you love.

Then again, people often assume that my working as a teacher is a "sorry tale" too.

Very few schools are pressed for teaching positions. Not to mention, if you are in the US, the coaches have to teach something.

Depends. They want all the math and science teachers they can get -- because, of course, since people with those skills are so marketable and command very good salaries out of the box, few good science and math majors want to teach.

Liberal Arts teachers, yeah, not so much.
Many of the sports coaches at my school teach Phys. Ed -- but some are Social Studies and English teachers.

Depends. They want all the math and science teachers they can get -- because, of course, since people with those skills are so marketable and command very good salaries out of the box, few good science and math majors want to teach.
Not so much math*, but science yeah. Since you have to actually know something to be a science teacher as opposed to a teacher of the arts where they can stick in PE teachers with little to no experience or studying in it.

*Any idiot going to college for anything beside a nursing degree could teach high school or lower math.

You think a month is bad? I've been surviving on benefits and cash in hand day-to-day jobs for six months since getting my History BA. Come back in five months and whinge.

You think six months is bad? Come back in eight and whinge ;)

To the OP: You need favouritism. Easiest way to get a job. Fourteen months spamming CVs and application forms to anyone I thought worthwhile, then a friend got me a job at her brother's new company. He thought he could make use of me, 'cos I'm cheap.

Now I'm too useful to get rid of, and too cheap to replace. Huzzah!

*Any idiot going to college for anything beside a nursing degree could teach high school or lower math.

They might be able to teach it, but would the pupils learn it?

these days you need at least a masters to have anything like a guarantee of a professional job, even then you have to really work at it. i know people who have been on the dole for 6 months and more after graduating, and others who are still temping and bartending 4 years after finishing their postgrad. the most i'm expecting after graduating is to take on a full time position at my current job (waitering and bartending at a function centre). if you've gone through uni expecting to fall into a decent job when you finish you've been lied to.

Not so much math*, but science yeah. Since you have to actually know something to be a science teacher as opposed to a teacher of the arts where they can stick in PE teachers with little to no experience or studying in it.

*Any idiot going to college for anything beside a nursing degree could teach high school or lower math.

Um, you really don't know what you're talking about, at least in the state where I teach. Sure, you can START teaching liberal arts with a BA in the liberal art you intend to teach (see, can't really stick a PE teacher into it...) and need to get a MA within 5 years or get kicked from the system. If you don't have a math degree, they are NOT going to hire you to be a math teacher in a NYS high school.

I have a BA and an MA Secondary Education Teacher: English.
Of course, the requirements are much less stringent in private/religious schools.

- snip -

Yeah. But they were free when you did them.

The problem in the US is a lot of people are basically 'sold' college degrees, and no-one points out the actual value of them until the final promissory note is signed.

Take my S.O.'s brother (please): he graduated with a political science degree and $40,000 ish in loans. He now works as a windshield glass technician. Now, he likes his job, but I'm sure he would like it a lot more if he didn't have to send money to his lenders every month. And at his income level it makes a real difference to his standard of living.

It's doubly unfair, because he hated college, but there is so much pressure to get a degree that he forced himself to go through four and a half years of it. Mostly on the basis that you can't get a 'real' job without a college diploma.

At some point someone's going to add up the cost of all this and the education bubble will collapse.

Yeah. But they were free when you did them.


The BA, yes, but not the MA.

I think one of the problems with the tertiary education system is that it is sold as a default option to many schoolkids, and people often find themselves making the wrong decision when still only eighteen. I left it a few years, and so ended up studying a subject which I would never have considered when my worldview was so deeply limited by secondary schooling.

You think six months is bad? Come back in eight and whinge ;)

To the OP: You need favouritism. Easiest way to get a job. Fourteen months spamming CVs and application forms to anyone I thought worthwhile, then a friend got me a job at her brother's new company. He thought he could make use of me, 'cos I'm cheap.

Now I'm too useful to get rid of, and too cheap to replace. Huzzah!
:p Ok, you win.

I think one of the problems with the tertiary education system is that it is sold as a default option to many schoolkids, and people often find themselves making the wrong decision when still only eighteen. I left it a few years, and so ended up studying a subject which I would never have considered when my worldview was so deeply limited by secondary schooling.

I am convinced that it is mostly the desire of the government to hide the true unemployment figures.

(I also think that tertiary education no longer functions the way it was intended to. But then perhaps I read to much Herman Hesse. I exempt myself from this, of course, because I don't have any learned degrees. I'm just really a technician).

:p Ok, you win.

Nah, I know (of) a guy who graduated the year before me, in 2002. He was one of the smartest and most able students in the department, the kind of guy that everyone went to if they had a problem. He's still unemployed.

Probably just because he looks like the drummer from a metal band, but what the bloody hell difference does that make?
Managers and HR drones are fuckwits.

Ok, so since I graduated from college in Dec. I've been looking for a job since Grad School doesn't start until Fall. Well it's now been almost a month since I graduated, and I still don't have a job. Apparently having a bachelors means shit. I've done all the things I'm susspose to do. Apply for the job, call a week later, etc. Still nothing. I do have the option to be a substitute teacher, but see, that would defeat my reason for avoiding being a full time teacher. I do not have the patience or tolerance to babysit 90 students in a day for shitty pay. So, I either have the option of continuing my job search, try to go into business myself, or being a substitute teacher. However, the day I do become a substitute teacher is the same day I schedule a prostate exam. Just had to get that off my chest.

One month??? One month is nothing.
How many jobs could you possibly have applied for in that time?

Also, didn't you want to be an archivist?

(I also think that tertiary education no longer functions the way it was intended to. But then perhaps I read to much Herman Hesse...).

So tertiary education should equip us for
a.) deeply idiosyncratic religious mystical experiences
b.) sexual relations with aristocratic women old enough to be our mothers
and
c.) the realization that we are all the devil's children left hanging suspended in space.

Or have I got hold of the wrong end of the stick?

So tertiary education should equip us for
a.) deeply idiosyncratic religious mystical experiences
b.) sexual relations with aristocratic women old enough to be our mothers
and
c.) the realization that we are all the devil's children left hanging suspended in space.

Or have I got hold of the wrong end of the stick?

Well all of the above are worthwhile pursuits. But I was more thinking I like the idea of very smart people engaged in the highest level of scholarship. But I also recognize that it is of little practical benefit to the regular joe, so it would be preferable if they did it somewhere else.

Really, tertiary education should be its own end. It shouldn't have to equip us for anything.

(Except maybe the devil's children thing).

Really, tertiary education should be its own end. It shouldn't have to equip us for anything.

I still think it something of a shame that some modified form of apprenticeship doesn't still exist (except in some obscure wee corners). Tertiary education at university seems too obsessed with telling students that they are important and that they have unique insights and that they are doing worthwhile things by merely doing academic donkey work. Despite the recent massive opening up of admissions it still seems to consider itself to be dealing with some kind of elite.

In my opinion it tends to focus too much on that touchy-feely stuff and not enough on teaching real skills, which I consider to be an end in themselves.

I still think it something of a shame that some modified form of apprenticeship doesn't still exist (except in some obscure wee corners). Tertiary education at university seems too obsessed with telling students that they are important and that they have unique insights and that they are doing worthwhile things by merely doing academic donkey work. Despite the recent massive opening up of admissions it still seems to consider itself to be dealing with some kind of elite.

In my opinion it tends to focus too much on that touchy-feely stuff and not enough on teaching real skills, which I consider to be an end in themselves.

Quite. I think it is a shame that elite universities have become degree mills for people who intend to take their diploma and barter it for a high paying job at an investment bank. I would far rather they restricted their intake to people who looked upon it as an opportunity to eventually pursue a career of scholarship in their chosen subjects. At the moment it's all a bit of a wasted effort. And probably half-hearted at best.

And as you say, vocational schemes and professional degrees where needed for others.

Though I do think the government should just 'fess up about the real rate of unemployment. Instead of magically declaring that it is always around 5%.

It took my brother months to find a job in his feild.. well.. that he's qualified for.

One month??? One month is nothing.
How many jobs could you possibly have applied for in that time?
Based on personal experience, about 150-200.

Depends. If the history degree were coupled with some relevant experience -- say working in even the uni library in the archives...

And yes, there was a good deal of bad luck connected to it. Too bad, too -- I've eaten my cousin's cooking and at his restaurant. It should have been a go. :)

Yeah my 6 years job experience IN THE FIELD that I got my degrees in is what set me up for the sweet jobs

The degree alone or the work alone would not have gotten me that far MA's or not.

I just want a job I can almost tolerate. It doesn't have to be my dream job, but at least it gives me money.

You have unrealistic goals. You're a history major, that's worthless in the real world, regardless of what anyone told you. The only thing that could make it worse is if you're an English minor, in which case your only career path is teaching.


Welcome to the real world. You'll do jobs you hate, for people who are stupid/indifferent/incompetent, and maybe you'll make enough to pay the bills. Enjoy your stay in reality.

Based on personal experience, about 150-200.
Yeah, but you're a pro. ;)

Seriously though - are you for real? That's insane. How are there even that many jobs you'd conceivably be interested/qualified to apply for?

be a sub. it's what's available, it pays, it's semi-flexible, look for an internship.

Yeah, but you're a pro. ;)

Seriously though - are you for real? That's insane. How are there even that many jobs you'd conceivably be interested/qualified to apply for?

Yeah, that many a month is quite mad :eek:
I thought 200-ish (~50 interviews) in 14 months was pretty good...

take the sub teaching job and try to teach history, or find part time work at a museam. keep a hand in your field, perhaps if you can ask a professor for advice...

Don't you have to have a postgrad teacher-training qualification to become a teacher in the US?

Based on personal experience, about 150-200.

Wow. I'm on 10 at the moment since i've finished. (and not one reply)

Any academic degree is good, especially history. But there is more to getting a good job then the qualification, you need to be a likeable hard working person in general as well as good at interviews.

you need to be a likeable hard working person in general as well as good at interviews.

Aww...I fail on all three counts. :/

:p

Don't you have to have a postgrad teacher-training qualification to become a teacher in the US?
More than likely, and it is a waste of good teachers really. Any idiot could teach highschool and lower because they teach from the book that has been in circulation since their parents went to school. Just because you have a degree in teaching and are a liberal arts major doesn't make you a better teacher f useless and frivolous information than the next person.

Yeah, but you're a pro. ;)

Seriously though - are you for real? That's insane. How are there even that many jobs you'd conceivably be interested/qualified to apply for?
There will always be some general office buttmonkey jobs available, wherever you live. I usually find 20-25 jobs per week in my local paper's job supplement, and about the same number on the jobcentre plus website. 40-50 a week is about 150-200 a month. I've applied for at least 750 jobs since I graduated.

The most common thing they want is experience - they don't care about qualifications - so my history degree only comes to the fore when I have to write a believable covering letter stating why I want the job. I'm not necessarily interested in the job, I just want (read: need) the money.

I've just applied for a job where the only criteria they have is "C at GCSE Maths or equivalent". Will I get the job? Highly unlikely, because someone with experience will also apply for it.

Any academic degree is good, [b]especially history[/]. But there is more to getting a good job then the qualification, you need to be a likeable hard working person in general as well as good at interviews.

I don't want to disparage history students, but the main requirement for getting a job is to have a skill set that another person needs. The rest of the things like personal appearance, likability, work ethic, self-expression, are only the means to get the hiring manager to listen

Some basic logic: the more people that have a Uni degree, the less it makes you stand out. Most workplaces nowadays prefer to just train you, and get you into the business (after big business learnt that its little plan to get unis to act as training places was quite idiotic and cost-inefficient). Like banks.

Me? I am doing an Economics degree, so unlike you liberal arts sissies I'll likely be in employment. :D That is, after I do a Masters so that I can at least have some edge over the hundreds of thousands of other graduates out there. And get some work experience. My main reason for doing the degree is academic - I want to learn. Not to get a job (although it may help slightly in the corporate field to have an Economics degree).

How well did you graduate, if I may ask Wilgrove? I'd be inclined to pursue a law degree if I were you, maybe at the one of the elite institutions if you excelled. Professions such as Law still place massive importance on degrees.

I don't want to disparage history students, but the main requirement for getting a job is to have a skill set that another person needs. The rest of the things like personal appearance, likability, work ethic, self-expression, are only the means to get the hiring manager to listen
Agreed.

More than likely, and it is a waste of good teachers really. Any idiot could teach highschool and lower because they teach from the book that has been in circulation since their parents went to school. Just because you have a degree in teaching and are a liberal arts major doesn't make you a better teacher f useless and frivolous information than the next person.

Um... Do you teach much?

One of my friends, one of the hardest-working people I know, recently became a teacher (secondary school science; she has a BSc in Biology, which in itself is much harder work than my Computing MEng). She claims she's never worked so hard in her life, and I'm quite happy to believe her, and even happier I never entertained the idea of becoming a teacher.
There's a lot more to teaching than reading from a book.

The most common thing they want is experience - they don't care about qualifications - so my history degree only comes to the fore when I have to write a believable covering letter stating why I want the job. I'm not necessarily interested in the job, I just want (read: need) the money.

I've just applied for a job where the only criteria they have is "C at GCSE Maths or equivalent". Will I get the job? Highly unlikely, because someone with experience will also apply for it.

That's exactly the problem i'm facing. For the small amount of jobs i've applied for, there are tons that I haven't bothered with because they list "experience" as a requirement. Aside from cash handling in my current job, I have nothing.

I don't want to disparage history students, but the main requirement for getting a job is to have a skill set that another person needs.

Depends on the type of job.

The rest of the things like personal appearance, likability, work ethic, self-expression, are only the means to get the hiring manager to listen

Which is the most important thing is it not?

Me? I am doing an Economics degree, so unlike you liberal arts sissies I'll likely be in employment. :D

Heh.

Q: What's the most useful thing about being an economics graduate?

A: You know exactly why you're standing in the dole queue.


;)

I don't want to disparage history students, but the main requirement for getting a job is to have a skill set that another person needs. The rest of the things like personal appearance, likability, work ethic, self-expression, are only the means to get the hiring manager to listen
I want to be a journalist. To get a good career in journalism, I need NCTJ accreditation, and the only way to get that is to go to university. However, to get onto the journalist course, I either need to have been working as a journalist for 5 years, or have at least a 2:2 in English, History, or a similar degree.

Why would they ask for a history degree? Because you learn a 'skill set' when you do the degree. You learn to research. You learn to think critically. You learn to question. In short, you learn some key skills you might need to be a journalist.

I don't want to disparage you, but try talking about something you actually know more than fuck all about.

That's exactly the problem i'm facing. For the small amount of jobs i've applied for, there are tons that I haven't bothered with because they list "experience" as a requirement. Aside from cash handling in my current job, I have nothing.

Yeah, getting the experience that you need to get the job you need to get the experience is brilliant fun :rolleyes:

And I have a proper Engineering degree ;)

That's exactly the problem i'm facing. For the small amount of jobs i've applied for, there are tons that I haven't bothered with because they list "experience" as a requirement. Aside from cash handling in my current job, I have nothing.
What degree did you do? Make shit up about how the stuff you learned from your degree makes you 'perfectly suited to this opportunity'. That's a phrase I use in every covering letter I write.

What degree did you do? Make shit up about how the stuff you learned from your degree makes you 'perfectly suited to this opportunity'. That's a phrase I use in every covering letter I write.

Work well, does it?

Sorry, couldn't help it ;)

-snip-

Q, do you need to have an ecenomics A level to learn economics at uni? I'm doing maths and history (as well as philosophy and ethics and music), could I study ecenomics at Uni with that?

Work well, does it?

Sorry, couldn't help it ;)
Gets me interviews. More than half the jobs I apply for I don't expect to get anywhere with, but I have more chance of getting the job if I apply for it than if I don't.

And don't worry. Nothing you could say comes close to how down you feel after six months of rejection.

Yeah, getting the experience that you need to get the job you need to get the experience is brilliant fun :rolleyes:

And I have a proper Engineering degree ;)

Ugh. :( I have a friend who finished his engineering degree and found a career in photography instead. I'm beginning to wonder what the point of study is.


What degree did you do? Make shit up about how the stuff you learned from your degree makes you 'perfectly suited to this opportunity'. That's a phrase I use in every covering letter I write.

I double majored in Politics and International Studies (the latter was basically a mix of cultural studies, 20th century history, and current affairs).

Despite what I said only two sentences ago, i'm contemplating going back and studying science, since i've realised that absolutely nothing out there related to my field of study is where I want to be in 10 years...but that's going to be a huge debt burden on me and I don't know if it's going to make any difference anyway.

Gets me interviews. More than half the jobs I apply for I don't expect to get anywhere with, but I have more chance of getting the job if I apply for it than if I don't.

And don't worry. Nothing you could say comes close to how down you feel after six months of rejection.

Sorry, I really didn't mean it as anything other than a joke. It was a bit cutting.

You still get down when you don't get the job? That might be a good thing (a bit, anyway). After a while I stopped caring, and started viewing interviews as an inconvenience (having to get up, wear silly clothes, drive to the interview, play the silly game for a while and be polite to people you know are just going to turn you down anyway; why don't they have the decency of doing so before all the faffing around?), the only upshot being the JobCentre's petrol-expenses rate was higher than the rate at which my car burned the stuff.
...I'm not helping, am I? Sorry :/

Edit:
Ugh. :( I have a friend who finished his engineering degree and found a career in photography instead. I'm beginning to wonder what the point of study is.

University is fun.
That is all.

If you go to one of the best universities you can fart around with a subject irrelevant to the world of employment. For everyone else, maybe Film Studies isn't the best idea.

If you go to one of the best universities you can fart around with a subject irrelevant to the world of employment. For everyone else, maybe Film Studies isn't the best idea.

An MBA doesn't hurt, either.

University is fun.
That is all.

I didn't have that much fun. Most people were either older than me (I was 17 when I started and the average person was in their 20s) or I simply didn't click with them socially.

Most of my friends at my university were guys i'd known since high school. So it was basically just essay after essay for me.

Sorry, I really didn't mean it as anything other than a joke. It was a bit cutting.

You still get down when you don't get the job? That might be a good thing (a bit, anyway). After a while I stopped caring, and started viewing interviews as an inconvenience (having to get up, wear silly clothes, drive to the interview, play the silly game for a while and be polite to people you know are just going to turn you down anyway; why don't they have the decency of doing so before all the faffing around?), the only upshot being the JobCentre's petrol-expenses rate was higher than the rate at which my car burned the stuff.
...I'm not helping, am I? Sorry :/
Don't worry about it.

It's not that I get down when I don't get a job. I feel down when I think how useful a job (or the money that comes with it) would be. I know I'll get one eventually - the only question is whether it'll be before or after my overdraft runs out.

If you go to one of the best universities you can fart around with a subject irrelevant to the world of employment. For everyone else, maybe Film Studies isn't the best idea.

Heh, I wish.

Don't worry about it.

It's not that I get down when I don't get a job. I feel down when I think how useful a job (or the money that comes with it) would be. I know I'll get one eventually - the only question is whether it'll be before or after my overdraft runs out.

Yeah. Keep on spamming with fingers crossed.
And hope a friend of a friend offers you a job :)

get a job as a journalist, history would be quite valuable for a political correspondent/reporter.

Heh.

Q: What's the most useful thing about being an economics graduate?

A: You know exactly why you're standing in the dole queue.

;)

Meh. :p

Q, do you need to have an ecenomics A level to learn economics at uni? I'm doing maths and history (as well as philosophy and ethics and music), could I study ecenomics at Uni with that?
Yes. The Maths A-Level is what is quintessential. You'll be taught the theory - although I must add, it will not be as easy as having done the A-Level. In addition, do not pursue Economics unless you have a genuine interest in it. It is doubly difficult as it is both highly theoretical and highly practical. If it is employment you seek, take some other finance-related degree, or get into work now already. If it is your passion though, go ahead with it. :)

I didn't have that much fun. Most people were either older than me (I was 17 when I started and the average person was in their 20s) or I simply didn't click with them socially.

Most of my friends at my university were guys i'd known since high school. So it was basically just essay after essay for me.
It's like that for me too. I have some friends, but the whole university life is not for me really - plus the town I'm studying in is not exactly London... What did you study, out of curiosity?

If you go to one of the best universities you can fart around with a subject irrelevant to the world of employment. For everyone else, maybe Film Studies isn't the best idea.
The best universities rarely teach non-academic subjects though. And believe me, if you prove yourself to be incompetent, the unemployment line is not too far off. The exception to this would be politics of course, in which case even idiots like Bush can get ahead. :)

If you do a 'proper' subject at a good university then you can try and get into all kinds of cool jobs afterwards if you've got an ambition other than to earn as much money as possible. I got into radio writing off the back of a completely unrelated Politics degree and a pinch of enthusiasm.

The best universities rarely teach non-academic subjects though. And believe me, if you prove yourself to be incompetent, the unemployment line is not too far off. The exception to this would be politics of course, in which case even idiots like Bush can get ahead. :)

When I said an irrelevant degree, I didn't mean pig studies or whatever they've come up with now I meant something which didn't have a direct progression into employment (i.e Philosiphy)

When I said an irrelevant degree, I didn't mean pig studies or whatever they've come up with now I meant something which didn't have a direct progression into employment (i.e Philosiphy)
I know what you meant. I've gotten around this by doing Philosophy as a minor with my main course (even though I go to a good uni). My point was that even if you went to an elite university, if you are professionally incompetent you won't last too long (except perhaps as a professor, as in this case there is a direct progression between degree and job).

statistically having a ba enables you to earn more, having an ma increases this and apparently your life expectancy (although the ma being the cause of this is totally doubtful, more like being able to afford it and a better quality of life in having that amount of wealth).

But yeah, you dont get jobs if they detect incompetence in you??? or if youre just incompetent/careless from time to time? not good.

statistically having a ba enables you to earn more, having an ma increases this and apparently your life expectancy (although the ma being the cause of this is totally doubtful, more like being able to afford it and a better quality of life in having that amount of wealth).
I've heard of these statistics. The problem is that they apply to the present market supply, and also do not specify which degrees are the most useful ones (they also tend to be the most oversubscribed ones). As the supply of graduates rises relative to demand for them, the value of having a degree will fall. So all those promised with higher earnings should they complete a degree might one day come to find their degree offered them little more than they'd have obtained otherwise.

I've heard of these statistics. The problem is that they apply to the present market supply, and also do not specify which degrees are the most useful ones (they also tend to be the most oversubscribed ones). As the supply of graduates rises relative to demand for them, the value of having a degree will fall. So all those promised with higher earnings should they complete a degree might one day come to find their degree offered them little more than they'd have obtained otherwise.

theyll be educated to a higher level, theyll be more enlightened on average, unless their non uni equivalents read up a lot. Uni isnt just for the jobs, its for accumulating knowledge above all.

I know what you meant. I've gotten around this by doing Philosophy as a minor with my main course (even though I go to a good uni). My point was that even if you went to an elite university, if you are professionally incompetent you won't last too long (except perhaps as a professor, as in this case there is a direct progression between degree and job).
You're forgetting that a professor needs to be tenured before he can become incompetent. Even then, there are limits to the incompetency that is tolerated by the school, before the prof can be fired.

Ok, so since I graduated from college in Dec. I've been looking for a job since Grad School doesn't start until Fall. Well it's now been almost a month since I graduated, and I still don't have a job. Apparently having a bachelors means shit. I've done all the things I'm susspose to do. Apply for the job, call a week later, etc. Still nothing. I do have the option to be a substitute teacher, but see, that would defeat my reason for avoiding being a full time teacher. I do not have the patience or tolerance to babysit 90 students in a day for shitty pay. So, I either have the option of continuing my job search, try to go into business myself, or being a substitute teacher. However, the day I do become a substitute teacher is the same day I schedule a prostate exam. Just had to get that off my chest.


you could always prostitute yourself.

Any academic degree is good, especially history. But there is more to getting a good job then the qualification, you need to be a likeable hard working person in general as well as good at interviews.

Exactly. Any competant interviewer should have already decided that you fit the role from an acedemic standpoint, that's why you got an interview. What they are now seeking is to find out what you are like in person. Do you fit with the company culture.

It's also important to dress your best. One notch above the dress code is usually safe. If in doubt what to wear, go with the suit.

Exactly. Any competant interviewer should have already decided that you fit the role from an acedemic standpoint, that's why you got an interview. What they are now seeking is to find out what you are like in person. Do you fit with the company culture.

It's also important to dress your best. One notch above the dress code is usually safe. If in doubt what to wear, go with the suit.

I was always told to dress for the job you want. ;)

Haha! Sucks to you all; I’m halfway through a degree which is bound to get me a job... Philosophy!

Wait, we are in Ancient Greece, aren’t we?

I want to be a journalist. To get a good career in journalism, I need NCTJ accreditation, and the only way to get that is to go to university. However, to get onto the journalist course, I either need to have been working as a journalist for 5 years, or have at least a 2:2 in English, History, or a similar degree.

Why would they ask for a history degree? Because you learn a 'skill set' when you do the degree. You learn to research. You learn to think critically. You learn to question. In short, you learn some key skills you might need to be a journalist.

I don't want to disparage you, but try talking about something you actually know more than fuck all about.

Since when was I talking about you and yours? But since you took it personally, let me answer back that if you had pursued a degree that was marketable, you would have had a decent job before you left college. Incidentally, that's the time to look for a job -- in your last year, before you graduate, not after. But then if you were that bright, you'd have graduated with a marketable degree...

You're forgetting that a professor needs to be tenured before he can become incompetent. Even then, there are limits to the incompetency that is tolerated by the school, before the prof can be fired.

Not true. Look at George Mitchell. (Or Ward Churchill).

Competence only counts in subject where you can blow things up/kill people. Even then it is sometimes touch and go.

Not true. Look at George Mitchell. (Or Ward Churchill).

Competence only counts in subject where you can blow things up/kill people. Even then it is sometimes touch and go.

I was thinking of real schools like Georgia Tech and real academics like Physics or engineering. It's impossible to tell if some of profs teaching the 'touchy-feely' things like arts and literature are really all together in the first place.

I was thinking of real schools like Georgia Tech and real academics like Physics or engineering. It's impossible to tell if some of profs teaching the 'touchy-feely' things like arts and literature are really all together in the first place.

Engineering doesn't count because you reach a point where you can't even hide your incompetence from a layman. (The designer of the tacoma narrows bridge springs to mind).

But then if you were that bright, you’d have graduated with a marketable degree...
Yeah, god forbid anyone would actually want to go to uni for anything more than increasing their pay-packet.

Marketable degree? What a disgusting, inhuman concept...

theyll be educated to a higher level, theyll be more enlightened on average, unless their non uni equivalents read up a lot. Uni isnt just for the jobs, its for accumulating knowledge above all.
Some observations:

i) One can educate themself if they have a true drive for it, and do a far better job of it than a University education could. The internet, libraries, eBay, amazon etc. are all at one's disposal.

ii) A lot of people attend higher education for jobs nowadays, not academic knowledge, as the case used to be. This is what I am referring to - not so much education for the sake of enlightenment. These individuals, who are the majority, will find their degree's relative payoff to diminish as more and more people graduate.

Personally, I do not think universities should be job-training centres at all (except with regard to the professions and occupations which need intimate scientific knowledge). Learning, research and enlightenment should be its priorities. Businesses are beginning to realise if they want to train their employees, it's best they do it themselves.

Yeah, god forbid anyone would actually want to go to uni for anything more than increasing their pay-packet.

Marketable degree? What a disgusting, inhuman concept...
How decidedly avant-garde... I agree with what you say, but not the non-sequitur moral judgements.

Haha! Sucks to you all; I’m halfway through a degree which is bound to get me a job... Philosophy!

The problem with being halfway through a philosophy degree is that in order to finish it you first need to get three quarters of the way through, but prior to that five eighths of the way through...

Don't you have to have a postgrad teacher-training qualification to become a teacher in the US?

I had to take student teaching, which was at the time 6 months of seminar and teaching -- for free -- with a cooperating teacher and being observed regularly by your professor. Nowadays, it's been extended to a year.

I also, as previously stated, had to complete my masters degree plus 30 hours of staff development courses outside of the staff development courses I had to take on the job. They give you five years to do it; if you fail to complete all the requirements you are out on your ass and have to start ALL OVER AGAIN because, as I said, the requirements changed, at least in NYS, in 2004.

It doesn't need to be post grad iirc -- you could also take it as an undergrad if you knew you wanted to teach when you first entered college. (I didn't -- I had two other careers before I became a teacher.)

More than likely, and it is a waste of good teachers really. Any idiot could teach highschool and lower because they teach from the book that has been in circulation since their parents went to school. Just because you have a degree in teaching and are a liberal arts major doesn't make you a better teacher f useless and frivolous information than the next person.

What planet did you get educated on? Or are you just making this up as you go along?

How decidedly avant-garde... I agree with what you say, but not the non-sequitur moral judgements.
Yeah, I’m roaringly fallacious, but I’m just sick off the current attitude towards education in the modern world.

The problem with being halfway through a philosophy degree is that in order to finish it you first need to get three quarters of the way through, but prior to that five eighths of the way through...
So Achilles catches up with me in 4th year, yes?

See the movie Midnight Cowboy
Wilgrove strikes me more of a Ratso than a Buck.

I had to take student teaching, which was at the time 6 months of seminar and teaching -- for free -- with a cooperating teacher and being observed regularly by your professor. Nowadays, it's been extended to a year.

I also, as previously stated, had to complete my masters degree plus 30 hours of staff development courses outside of the staff development courses I had to take on the job. They give you five years to do it; if you fail to complete all the requirements you are out on your ass and have to start ALL OVER AGAIN because, as I said, the requirements changed, at least in NYS, in 2004.

It doesn't need to be post grad iirc -- you could also take it as an undergrad if you knew you wanted to teach when you first entered college. (I didn't -- I had two other careers before I became a teacher.)

it's strict there, all you really have to do here is pass the license exam, which I did, when I was a sophomore, they would have let me teach without even a high school diploma.

most of our teachers have a BA in something (my friend who teaches has a BA in Computer Science, and teaches Chemistry) but with the big teacher shortage they are letting a lot of the "requirements" slide.

I could walk into the high school down the street right now and start teaching, if I wanted to deal with a bunch of crap.....which I don't.

I could walk into the high school down the street right now and start teaching, if I wanted to deal with a bunch of crap.....which I don't.

Too bad -- if your kids are any indication you're a great teacher. :)

Too bad -- if your kids are any indication you're a great teacher. :)

I wouldn't want to deal with the inner city schools again, I had enough experience as a student, plus I would have to stick my kids somewhere and I don't like the formal schooling model, and then after all that.......I just don't like going to work. :p it doesn't fit into my schedule.

However, I am tutoring kids from that inner city school right now and it's proven to be rewarding for all of us.

That is true! In fact, I interviewed a lot of places, and I had a double bind...I didn't have enough experience for most jobs that wanted a bachelors, and places that didn't require one didn't want to hire me because they assumed I'd only be there for a little while and then move on to grad school. I got a job that I've had for a couple years now (while also being in grad school) that pays me shit, but at least I'm using my degree. Sort of.

I think you'd have better luck finding Osama Bin Laden in Canada than finding a college student with enough funds for a start-up after graduation.

I have started many businesses. Three are still in operation and producing a good cash flow. I guess four if you count rental houses. 3 out of the 4 did not require more then $1000 cash. The one that did require a huge sum of money is not my largest source of income.

I agree with a previous poster on a BA meaning near nothing. Many of the people that work for me are not college graduates. They are people with good common sense and street smarts. That is what in my opinion will take you far in life.

The only reason I believe someone should go to school is to pursue a specific job track. Such as doctor, lawyer or other specialty. A general BA is worth as much as a roll of Toilet Paper. I could even make an arguement that the toilet paper is worth more. Don't waste your money on school if you do not know what it is your going to do afterward. Also check out how much your prospective jobs will pay you. Also check the demand in the field your planning on. Calculate out how long and how much you have to pay back in Student loans. Then figure it out if it's worth your time.

Hell, it took my brother a year and a half to finally land a nice paying job in his chosen field(Software Engineer). A month in all respects is nothing, if you live in a large city, there's bound to something that comes up, just keep at it.

Also look at it this way, at least you went through college doing something you enjoyed(I'm making assumptions here, forgive me if I'm wrong). I'm personally going through the nursing program just for the job security.

Yeah, god forbid anyone would actually want to go to uni for anything more than increasing their pay-packet.

Marketable degree? What a disgusting, inhuman concept...
If a student graduates with a degree that renders him unemployable, he shouldn't be the one demanding dole payments until he finds one. Or complaining about the lack of work that he finds.

So Achilles catches up with me in 4th year, yes?

Achilles doesn't manage to pass.

The only reason I believe someone should go to school is to pursue a specific job track. Such as doctor, lawyer or other specialty. A general BA is worth as much as a roll of Toilet Paper. I could even make an arguement that the toilet paper is worth more. Don't waste your money on school if you do not know what it is your going to do afterward. Also check out how much your prospective jobs will pay you. Also check the demand in the field your planning on. Calculate out how long and how much you have to pay back in Student loans. Then figure it out if it's worth your time.
We are in complete agreement. I'd state that university is there both for enlightenment and specialised professions. It was never meant to be a mere job-training centre (and poor one at that). It's a shame that it has become this.

If a student graduates with a degree that renders him unemployable, he shouldn’t be the one demanding dole payments until he finds one. Or complaining about the lack of work that he finds.
What’s that got to do with it? I’m just angry at the way universities have gone from centers of learning and specialisation, to merely a place where kids go to between High School and employment.

Or, to put it another way:

I’d state that university is there both for enlightenment and specialised professions. It was never meant to be a mere job-training centre (and poor one at that). It’s a shame that it has become this.
Indeed.

Achilles doesn’t manage to pass.
He just chases a turtle into infinity, accompanied only by the Benny Hill theme tune.

What’s that got to do with it? I’m just angry at the way universities have gone from centers of learning and specialisation, to merely a place where kids go to between High School and employment.

Or, to put it another way:


Indeed.


He just chases a turtle into infinity, accompanied only by the Benny Hill theme tune.

If you think that obtaining a marketable set of skills (degree) at a university precludes learning anything else, then you are wasting your time. It's kind of like working a 40 hour week. Only losers are clock-watchers. Good employees work the extra time needed to get the job done. At college, you need to do more than just take the required classes to get the most for your (parents) money.

He just chases a turtle into infinity, accompanied only by the Benny Hill theme tune.

Ergo, it is impossible to pass in a philosophy degree.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehnRt3LaLUc

If you think that obtaining a marketable set of skills (degree) at a university precludes learning anything else, then you are wasting your time. It’s kind of like working a 40 hour week. Only losers are clock-watchers. Good employees work the extra time needed to get the job done. At college, you need to do more than just take the required classes to get the most for your (parents) money.
My problem here is the idea that a degree is first and foremost a "marketable set of skills"; an idea unfortunately propagated by many university authorities, as well as folks like the CBI. A degree, IMO, is a way to study a subject one is interested in fully and in a more in-depth way. Yes, many degrees will help you get a job, but that shouldn’t be the primary reason for doing a degree. And, as this thread as shown, getting a degree certainly doesn’t guarentee you job security in any way.

My problem here is the idea that a degree is first and foremost a "marketable set of skills"; an idea unfortunately propagated by many university authorities, as well as folks like the CBI. A degree, IMO, is a way to study a subject one is interested in fully and in a more in-depth way. Yes, many degrees will help you get a job, but that shouldn’t be the primary reason for doing a degree. And, as this thread as shown, getting a degree certainly doesn’t guarentee you job security in any way.

That's a rosy way of looking at learning, but it's completely unrealistic. All learning increases knowledge. The knowledge that a young one needs is, first and foremost, how to become self-sufficient. After that, you can relax with abstract ideas and whatever else floats your boat. A university can be many things, but if you decide to attend one, I don't see how you can do it without regard for what happens when you finish.

I said only a loser works a 40 hour week. Same with students. The ambitious ones can find time to take the extra classes and attend the lectures and seminars that are stimulating.

That’s a rosy way of looking at learning, but it’s completely unrealistic. All learning increases knowledge. The knowledge that a young one needs is, first and foremost, how to become self-sufficient. After that, you can relax with abstract ideas and whatever else floats your boat. A university can be many things, but if you decide to attend one, I don’t see how you can do it without regard for what happens when you finish.
I am attending a university; in my second year of a philosophy degree. Believe me, a philosophy degree isn’t exactly a career move. But that’s not the point. I’m doing this degree to further my study of a subject I love, and to broaden my mind to the world around me; a far greater goal, IMHO, than spending four years manouevring yourself into a better wage bracket. Thanks for being so worried about my future in the world of work, but I’m sure I’ll survive.

I said only a loser works a 40 hour week.

What about them what love their work?

I am attending a university; in my second year of a philosophy degree. Believe me, a philosophy degree isn’t exactly a career move. But that’s not the point. I’m doing this degree to further my study of a subject I love, and to broaden my mind to the world around me; a far greater goal, IMHO, than spending four years manouevring yourself into a better wage bracket. Thanks for being so worried about my future in the world of work, but I’m sure I’ll survive.

For you, it isn't a question of a better wage bracket, it's whether or not there is any wage bracket at all out there for a philosophy grad.

Out of curiosity, what do you plan on doing in two or three more years with that big, broadened head? Do you plan doing some sort of self-sustaining work, or is that too bourgeoisie, as well? I guess you could do the PhD thing, but that sort of makes it look like philosophy is there only to perpetuate itself.

What about them what love their work?
They're usually the owners and managers. They never go home.

Out of curiosity, what do you plan on doing in two or three more years with that big, broadened head? Do you plan doing some sort of self-sustaining work, or is that too bourgeoisie, as well? I guess you could do the PhD thing, but that sort of makes it look like philosophy is there only to perpetuate itself.
I’m already bourgeoisie ;) Don’t be so condescending.

I plan to do masters, then a PhD; if I get through my degree of course. But it only looks like philosophy is there to perpetuate itself if your only understanding of a degree is as a means to get a job.

Try to fathom this out: I study philosophy because I like studying philosophy. Earth-shattering.

That's a rosy way of looking at learning, but it's completely unrealistic. All learning increases knowledge. The knowledge that a young one needs is, first and foremost, how to become self-sufficient. After that, you can relax with abstract ideas and whatever else floats your boat. A university can be many things, but if you decide to attend one, I don't see how you can do it without regard for what happens when you finish.

I said only a loser works a 40 hour week. Same with students. The ambitious ones can find time to take the extra classes and attend the lectures and seminars that are stimulating.

I think it's reasonable to point out, however, that the current university model is not suited to the way it is being used. For the purposes of most end users it is vastly inefficient, costly, time wasting and does not provide the type of service they really need/want.

And it's also unfair to criticize the students for the most part. You wouldn't trust even a smart eighteen year old with several hundred thousand dollars and the stock market, so why get upset when they fall for the marketing efforts of Universities. Really, it's the fault of people who should know better (people running the universities).

It would be far better to tease out the professional degrees from the traditional university setting. That way there would be less confusion about the actual value of a 'learned' college degree, and people would be more likely to acquire marketable skills at the tertiary educational level.

...
It would be far better to tease out the professional degrees from the traditional university setting. That way there would be less confusion about the actual value of a 'learned' college degree, and people would be more likely to acquire marketable skills at the tertiary educational level.


In Quebec we have a system called CEGEP. After high school (secondary school) you go to CEGEP. Like university, you apply to, and attend, a program of your choice. The programs break down into two broad categories: pre-university programs and professional programs. The pre-university programs are two years long and provide a grounding for further study in your field of choice. Typical fare.

The professional programs is where it's at. Three years and you come out with a marketable skill, like being a machinist or graphic designer, or dental hygienist, or software programmer, electrician, hairdresser, librarian, receptioninst, building inspector, and it costs about $200 a semester for all citizens.

The problem is universities don't teach you marketable skills or even skills that are related to marketable skills. I'm in 3 different programming courses and not a single one is going to teach me anything useful, but after taking all of them, I will be closer to being paid more money for useless knowledge.

I said only a loser works a 40 hour week.

How does that work? Because going out and working is the only worthwhile thing for a human to do?
IMO, only a prat wastes their entire life at work. That is (intentionally, for effect) a bit harsh - some people really love their jobs and do spend, happily and willingly, their entire lives there. But the only one I've met was a researcher (FPGAs, if you care) and lecturer at a university.

For the overwhelming majority of people, the only thing a job gives them is money at the end of the day. Whilst money is useful - necessary, almost, at the moment - it isn't the be-all and end-all of existence.