NationStates Jolt Archive

Over the years Americans have watched their great country slowly lose it's long held postion of global superpower. When we finally lose that status, who will pick up the slack and take the title superpower. I originally thought it may well be the European Union but now I think our greatest competitor for global political, and military dominence may be the People's Republic of China. Besides the fact that it is the most populated ( therefore have the largest standing army ) it has the fastest expanding economy in the world. It is poised to become the single largest economy in the world within the next 10 to 15 years.
For further reading http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0315-24.htm

If America was replaced by China as a the lone superpower, or rather became another superpower ( as I personally have a hard time believing the United States could be intimidated by economic or military means ) what would this mean for the world? I read somewhere ( if I can find the website I'll link it ) that a new Chinese superpower could inevitably lead to a catastrophic war with China in which both countries would rendered economically ruined, though China may well end up recouping first. Still, a war between the future Chinese superpower and the United States superpower will not only devestate both countries individually, economically and militarily, it will have profound affects on the global economy. That is just one view of what could happen. The question again is, what would happen to the world if China suddenly leaped onto the global stage as the next superpower.

Over the years Americans have watched their great country slowly lose it's long held postion of global superpower. When we finally lose that status, who will pick up the slack and take the title superpower. I originally thought it may well be the European Union but now I think our greatest competitor for global political, and military dominence may be the People's Republic of China. Besides the fact that it is the most populated ( therefore have the largest standing army ) it has the fastest expanding economy in the world. It is poised to become the single largest economy in the world within the next 10 to 15 years.
For further reading http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0315-24.htm

If America was replaced by China as a the lone superpower, or rather became another superpower ( as I personally have a hard time believing the United States could be intimidated by economic or military means ) what would this mean for the world? I read somewhere ( if I can find the website I'll link it ) that a new Chinese superpower could inevitably lead to a catastrophic war with China in which both countries would rendered economically ruined, though China may well end up recouping first. Still, a war between the future Chinese superpower and the United States superpower will not only devestate both countries individually, economically and militarily, it will have profound affects on the global economy. That is just one view of what could happen. The question again is, what would happen to the world if China suddenly leaped onto the global stage as the next superpower.

So long as internet piracy remains relatively unchallenged so I can enjoy free porn with the click of a button, I'm not worried.

Here is an idea what if China, India, the E.U, Russia, Brazil and the U.S get along in the future instead of these pointless cold wars for no apparent reason other than a fear of foreigners?

Imagine a multi-polar world where the superpowers work together and globalisation combined with the U.N create an age of prosperity

As such I ask that we leave this subject to rot until it comes up again around about lunchtime tomorrow by my math

The era of superpowers as we know them is dying...the US is really going to be the last of them because the world economy will no longer tolerate them like it did in the past. We are too interdependent on each other economically and politically to have the kind of stand-alone leaders that dominated earlier eras of our history. Globalization is eliminating the barriers that enabled nations to have that kind of influence, and now we are increasingly in the same boat when it comes to any kind of international policy.

Obviously, this is highly desirable since it means even more prosperity, more freedom, and more stability for the nations that integrate themselves in to the world economy. I'm glad that the era of superpowers is over because it is nowhere near as good as what we will have in the future.

The next time superpowers might become a reality is when we're speaking in terms of planets as individual nations...

So long as internet piracy remains relatively unchallenged so I can enjoy free porn with the click of a button, I'm not worried.

I myself wonder what porn Chinese farmers can offer us

Here is an idea what if China, India, the E.U, Russia, Brazil and the U.S get along in the future instead of these pointless cold wars for no apparent reason other than a fear of foreigners?


I didn’t say there had to be a cold war, just that is a theory of what would happen if Americas arrogance got the better of it and it opposed China. But I agree, if the two superpowers got along and worked together the prosperity that would come from it would be unmatched.

The era of superpowers as we know them is dying...the US is really going to be the last of them because the world economy will no longer tolerate them like it did in the past. We are too interdependent on each other economically and politically to have the kind of stand-alone leaders that dominated earlier eras of our history. Globalization is eliminating the barriers that enabled nations to have that kind of influence, and now we are increasingly in the same boat when it comes to any kind of international policy.

Obviously, this is highly desirable since it means even more prosperity, more freedom, and more stability for the nations that integrate themselves in to the world economy. I'm glad that the era of superpowers is over because it is nowhere near as good as what we will have in the future.

The next time superpowers might become a reality is when we're speaking in terms of planets as individual nations...


That is true, but it is inevitable for China to dominate the world as superpower, at least economically for at a minimum of ten to twenty years, as I earlier stated they have the largest army and the fastest growing industrial and consumer economy.

I myself wonder what porn Chinese farmers can offer us

Think "Eastern European, with an Asian spice."

I didn’t say there had to be a cold war, just that is a theory of what would happen if Americas arrogance got the better of it and it opposed China. But I agree, if the two superpowers got along and worked together the prosperity that would come from it would be unmatched.

well if either power decided to go to war (or even fight proxy really) the first to attack would lose in every way with or without nukes, with or without international support

That is true, but it is inevitable for China to dominate the world as superpower, at least economically for at a minimum of ten to twenty years, as I earlier stated they have the largest army and the fastest growing industrial and consumer economy.

Well, China's also coming from an underdeveloped base; 10% growth rates are to be expected especially in a nation that has a population of 1.3 billion and a nearly untapped consumer market. Their economy is catching up to developed-world levels, and it will slow to more moderate growth rates as it matures; I would say it will be like the US, with (quite high) growth rates of 3-4% once it develops.

Will they be the largest economy? Yes. At the same time, however, they will also boost world economic growth, so they will be a major player in the world economy. However, total economic dominance is highly unlikely given the development of the world economy to date; it's going to be China, the US, India, and the EU with nations like Brazil and Russia close behind. We're not going to have an all-out dominance like we did in the 1950's or 60's with the US and USSR controlling most of the world economy.

That is true, but it is inevitable for China to dominate the world as superpower, at least economically for at a minimum of ten to twenty years, as I earlier stated they have the largest army and the fastest growing industrial and consumer economy.

if the E.U is looked at as a nation its economic strength compared to whatever nation you can think of is like comparing New York’s economy to a small tribal village….in Antarctica (your also forgetting all of the other growing powers and that China has quite some trouble ahead)

Just be glad its not a democracy that would be terrible

Think "Eastern European, with an Asian spice."

*likes*

Just be glad its not a democracy that would be terrible

Well, if you consider economic stagnation to be a good thing, then yeah.

Democracy is the only way nations can achieve the level of development seen in the EU, Japan, or the US/Canada.

Over the years Americans have watched their great country slowly lose it's long held postion of global superpower. When we finally lose that status, who will pick up the slack and take the title superpower. I originally thought it may well be the European Union but now I think our greatest competitor for global political, and military dominence may be the People's Republic of China. Besides the fact that it is the most populated ( therefore have the largest standing army ) it has the fastest expanding economy in the world. It is poised to become the single largest economy in the world within the next 10 to 15 years.
For further reading http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0315-24.htm

If America was replaced by China as a the lone superpower, or rather became another superpower ( as I personally have a hard time believing the United States could be intimidated by economic or military means ) what would this mean for the world? I read somewhere ( if I can find the website I'll link it ) that a new Chinese superpower could inevitably lead to a catastrophic war with China in which both countries would rendered economically ruined, though China may well end up recouping first. Still, a war between the future Chinese superpower and the United States superpower will not only devestate both countries individually, economically and militarily, it will have profound affects on the global economy. That is just one view of what could happen. The question again is, what would happen to the world if China suddenly leaped onto the global stage as the next superpower.

The bolded part is why I believe it isn't going to happen. Neither the Chinese nor Americans will go to war with each other because economically we are both innertwined and going to war would econonomically would cripple the entire world and then there would be no superpower but a world filled with 3rd world nations. China and America are probably the least likely to ever go to war against each other we may not be to fond of each other or the policies of each but we are dependent on each other tremendously. China and America aren't idiots. We'll stick with disagreeing with each other but I don't think we have to worry about going to war.

Over the years Americans have watched their great country slowly lose it's long held postion of global superpower. When we finally lose that status, who will pick up the slack and take the title superpower. I originally thought it may well be the European Union but now I think our greatest competitor for global political, and military dominence may be the People's Republic of China. Besides the fact that it is the most populated ( therefore have the largest standing army ) it has the fastest expanding economy in the world. It is poised to become the single largest economy in the world within the next 10 to 15 years.
For further reading http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0315-24.htm

If America was replaced by China as a the lone superpower, or rather became another superpower ( as I personally have a hard time believing the United States could be intimidated by economic or military means ) what would this mean for the world? I read somewhere ( if I can find the website I'll link it ) that a new Chinese superpower could inevitably lead to a catastrophic war with China in which both countries would rendered economically ruined, though China may well end up recouping first. Still, a war between the future Chinese superpower and the United States superpower will not only devestate both countries individually, economically and militarily, it will have profound affects on the global economy. That is just one view of what could happen. The question again is, what would happen to the world if China suddenly leaped onto the global stage as the next superpower.


There are a few reasons why I think that, WHEN China becomes a superpower, the new "Cold War" won't really be the old one...

China won't be a military threat, until they have a true blue-water navy. Their land borders have some of the most ridiculous terrain on earth...jungles, the Himalayas, the vast Siberian plains, deserts, plateaus.

They are bordered by nuclear powers in India, Pakistan and Russia, and a string of nations (Japan, S. Korea, Taiwan, Philippines, Australia, New Zealand) with close ties to Europe and America.

They aren't doing anything by land.

So they need a blue-water navy for any sort of territorial expansion...and they are building one (Future Fleet Section (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Liberation_Army_Navy)), but until then Chinese power projection is minimal. How long it will take, given their current rate of buildup, is debateable, but a navy like the one they would need is expensive. Just look at the U.S. defense budget.

So there is the matter of a political threat, but unlike the USSR, China no longer has communism as a cause to rally support in developing nations. They are trying to offset this with generous aid to Africa and Asia, but money is the weapon the U.S. has been using for a long time, and it will take a lot to offset that influence.

But money they have...mostly from the U.S., and it is in the economic area that China is the largest "threat".

China's got economic disparity, both in terms of geography and wealth distribution, it's polluted and getting worse, it's got human rights abuses, and it's authoritarian...but the populace IS getting wealthier.

How long the Chinese people accept only wealth...well, THAT'S the question that I wonder about.

How long the Chinese people accept only wealth...well, THAT'S the question that I wonder about.

Democratic reform movements have always been tied to rising education and the emergence of a sizable middle class...once those two happen, China will be on its way to seeing the Communist Party dismantled. Once people have enough money to meet their needs and disposable income to spend on wants, and have the free time to spend on leisure activities, they tend to get more active politically and socially.

Give it a decade or so and I have a feeling China will be quite different than it is now.

Democracy is the only way nations can achieve the level of development seen in the EU, Japan, or the US/Canada.

the Average Chinese farmer is not someone I would like to see with any power over government also democracy has little to do with economics liberalism (a key example is various points in the Russian empire)

edit: I can see where you are going though, but at the moment the Chinese are a bit too ignorant and bloodthirsty imperialist for any good to come from it

China and America aren't idiots

:eek: were doomed don't bother with the bunker the Earth is going to explode

:p

the Average Chinese farmer is not someone I would like to see with any power over government also democracy has little to do with economics liberalism (a key example is various points in the Russian empire)

Well, Russia had that Revolution because people were tired of the Czar's oppression (and proceeded to install...another....oppressive regime?).

Of course, economic liberalism is easier and more manageable if people have a say in it; it's mainly the government that is the biggest barrier to that, because they have a vested interest in maintain control over the economy.

I don't think there is any real danger becouse there really isn't so much idealogical difference between Europe and China.
There isn't so much idealogical engagement either in Europe.
Not in the sense that different European parties are antogonistic
like the American parties are. We Europeans simple have a more diplomatic and more peacefull culture when it comes to politics, especially in contrast to USA. It's just a fact that we have more idealogical fractions that gets along better than those in USA.
Europe also tend to percieve the third world like it's own backyard or like something to please,exploit or help becouse of the ex-collonial relationships.

However is you explore the idea of future superpowers for purpose of writing or study(becouse of a specific interest in war history T.ex) I am not against the idea.
You could still make realistic speculations about it.

It's just that I don't think there is an actual danger but there could still be realistic possiblity that would lead to global war.

Besides the filthy natives of The third world will finally lick the dirt from the boots of the Europeans and know where they belong.
There is a subconscious nazy in all Europeans, it's just that we will call it humanitarian aid instead of "imperialism".

That is true, but it is inevitable for China to dominate the world as superpower, at least economically for at a minimum of ten to twenty years, as I earlier stated they have the largest army and the fastest growing industrial and consumer economy.

Take some upper division economics, espescially political economics, and the problems that developing economies are faced with. Once you do so, you'll suddenly realize that the PRC is in a situation that is not radically different from the United States in 1925, I just hope that the PRC can mitigate the effects of their 1929 better than we did.

I think economic liberalism will lead to democracy and freedroms.
Even wellfare and freedroms are just questions of money.

Well, Russia had that Revolution because people were tired of the Czar's oppression (and proceeded to install...another....oppressive regime?).

ah but the revolution in Russia was largely to do with extreme instability and looming economic collapse coupled with a brutal war

if you look further into the empires history it had unimaginable high points (considering what was being worked with)

Of course, economic liberalism is easier and more manageable if people have a say in it; it's mainly the government that is the biggest barrier to that, because they have a vested interest in maintain control over the economy.

What about the British east India company* times it managed to flourish as long as it was left alone which it very much was apart from a few instances of failed Anglicisation caused by the British publics pressure

*I think I’ve fallen in love with a company :( :p

China..... superpower? *laughs uncontrollably*

Might I suggest that, if economic predominance is prerequisite to a superpower, it is international prestige, military dominance, and influence, that elevate a power to true pre-eminence?

At present, China lacks all of the above, and will continue to do so.

First of all, China's economy is not going to surge ahead of us, just like Japan's economy (which was really taking off a decade ago) slowed down. (This is not to say that it won't creep ahead of us) This is mainly because of two reasons. 1. It depends on the United States for economic growth, once it develops to the point where the workers start wanting more money for their time, jobs will start to shift to other, even poorer countries (the shift from a majority of the goods saying "Made in Japan" to "Made in China" a decade ago was very similar) 2. As they become more and more developed it will be more expensive to improve themselves. Also, high gas prices are going to continue to hurt them, and raise, as they start using more and more of it.

As for the U.S. and China going to war..... Well, the nuclear history has been a short one, so there may be time to change, but one of the greatest lessons has been that countries with nuclear arsenals don't fight each other. The amount that China and the US work together economically also makes War very unlikely.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again; when oil runs out, China and India are going to crumble faster than the Eastern Bloc did in 1989.

Expect widespread poverty.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again; when oil runs out, China and India are going to crumble faster than the Eastern Bloc did in 1989.

Expect widespread poverty.
When is oil going to run out? I suspect that by the time oil production begins to drop both countries will be able to move away from oil and gas pretty quickly.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again; when oil runs out, China and India are going to crumble faster than the Eastern Bloc did in 1989.

Expect widespread poverty.

and the EU USA and the western countries have a master plan for when the oil runs out?

and all this talk of war between Superpowers is just crap...what benefit is it for any country to go to war, a war where there can be no winner...

and the EU USA and the western countries have a master plan for when the oil runs out?

and all this talk of war between Superpowers is just crap...what benefit is it for any country to go to war, a war where there can be no winner...

I was curious of that too...I thought (for the USA, anyways) we were pretty dependent upon oil...

Democratic reform movements have always been tied to rising education and the emergence of a sizable middle class...once those two happen, China will be on its way to seeing the Communist Party dismantled. Once people have enough money to meet their needs and disposable income to spend on wants, and have the free time to spend on leisure activities, they tend to get more active politically and socially.

Give it a decade or so and I have a feeling China will be quite different than it is now.

I don't understand why people relate democratisation of China with the downfall of the Communist Party. Even if the Chinese had the choice to elect someone else, I doubt that they would distance themselves from the party that brought them out of the 'Century of Shame'. More likely, China would follow the route of other Asian democracies and maintain a one party monopoly for a significantly long time after liberalisation, I imagine the CCP being like the Liberal Democratic Party in Japan, or the Popular Action Party in Singapore, or (perhaps more likely) the Indian Congress, which held the monopoly on political power for the first fifty years of Indian independence.

Might I suggest that, if economic predominance is prerequisite to a superpower, it is international prestige, military dominance, and influence, that elevate a power to true pre-eminence?

At present, China lacks all of the above, and will continue to do so.

That's the kind of statement that comes back to haunt people.

When is oil going to run out? I suspect that by the time oil production begins to drop both countries will be able to move away from oil and gas pretty quickly.

I don't share your optimism. To make such a radical change as to pull away from petrochemicals needs an almost superhuman infrastructure and lots of available cash. Imagine a family in Europe needs to replace their oil-car with a futuristic chocolate walnut-powered car, they simply need to drop down to their local dealership and purchase it with their large cash reserves. But a similar family in India will have trouble affording anything but an old, second-hand, inefficient car, and will furthermore not be able to rely on the inferior public transportation. As people are priced out of running their cars the distances between villages get bigger and the internal trade routes deteriorate, food deliveries become intermittant as the truckers cannot rely on getting their hands on any petrol.

This is one of those many situations where real life punishes you for being poor. China and India will have problems adapting as quick as the wealthier nations.

P.S. That chocolate walnut thing isn't mere flippancy, IIRC cocoa solids and walnut oils have been proposed as an alternative fuel source.

P.P.S. Oil production has already begun to drop.

It's gonna be a loooooong time! :p


Although we will continue to have a large military, unless some hippie gets voted in.

China still can't even get steel tempering right.

When is oil going to run out? I suspect that by the time oil production begins to drop both countries will be able to move away from oil and gas pretty quickly.

and the EU USA and the western countries have a master plan for when the oil runs out?

The West will be hit hard too, but China and India are rapidly developing economies. They BURN through fuel, and will increase consumption as their momentum grows. Would you rather be driving a car at 10 Km/h or 150 Km/h when it hits the wall?

Russia will pwn them both! Just watch...

I myself wonder what porn Chinese farmers can offer us

The kind that you watch some now and half an hour later you're ready to have a go again.

or (perhaps more likely) the Indian Congress, which held the monopoly on political power for the first fifty years of Indian independence.

1947 - Indian independence.

1977 - non-congress coalition comes to power. Even Indira Gandhi's personal charisma, popularity from the glorious victory of 1971 war, legacy of Nehru and Gandhi etc failed to save the congress.

There is no reason to believe the Chicom will be even that popular in a free environment.

The era of superpowers as we know them is dying...the US is really going to be the last of them because the world economy will no longer tolerate them like it did in the past. We are too interdependent on each other economically and politically to have the kind of stand-alone leaders that dominated earlier eras of our history. Globalization is eliminating the barriers that enabled nations to have that kind of influence, and now we are increasingly in the same boat when it comes to any kind of international policy.

Obviously, this is highly desirable since it means even more prosperity, more freedom, and more stability for the nations that integrate themselves in to the world economy. I'm glad that the era of superpowers is over because it is nowhere near as good as what we will have in the future.

The next time superpowers might become a reality is when we're speaking in terms of planets as individual nations...

Interdependence and globalisation in no way conflicts with a sole world superpower.

One may also wish to consider the fact that a world of variously-poweful, all-interdependent non-superpowers would simply be a world waiting for someone to try even harder for supremacy over all. Not that I'd mind exactly, seeing as a current "real life UN" system that would criminalize Alexander the Great simply for becoming "Alexander the Great" hardly appeals to me; sure would be poetic justice if that system ultimately just convinced some middle-rank power to try for EMPIRE once again once the opportunity arose, he he he.:p
Still, China might be able to resist the temptation, given its fairly limited military means both present and considered desirable for the future (at least officially), and its sensible enough economic focus. But could Germany or Russia do so if the EU were to sunder politically, but leave the economic pie intact for someone to claim, somehow?
Overall, the rise of China IMHO is simply a global return-to-scale, given that a pre-eminent China was the global condition of civilization before the 1700s or so; Communism really being simply one of several options that conceivably could have generated a similar recent history to that the country experienced. (Could you imagine Chiang Kai-Shek's 'White Terror' on a Cultural Revolution scale?:( )Barring another demographic and technological miracle, such as widespread and effective medical nanotech use lowering the death rate still further, the West is simply spent. The old Great Powers might try again for something if their integration venture fails, as i said, but I doubt it will come to much in popuations that see themselves more as lovers (or gangsters) than soldiers; and then the US will probably join them in that national geriatrism too, once the current Middle East Misadventures finally peter out.
Only by that time, Sino-American trade will hopefully have given China the technical means to wean itself off its massive petrochemical use. This global "back to normal" for civilization, combined with China's history of actually quite cordial relations with so-called 'barbarians,' as long as they dutifully kowtowed to the Middle Kingdom's rightful supremacy of course, gives me reason to doubt the Dragon (whatever color it is by then) will exactly be so bad an overlord after all; and I'm an American, mind.;)

That is true, but it is inevitable for China to dominate the world as superpower, at least economically for at a minimum of ten to twenty years, as I earlier stated they have the largest army and the fastest growing industrial and consumer economy.

I don't think it is inevitable at all. For the following reasons

- Too much state control in the market at present
- There is little chance of the Yuan becoming a major reserve currency (its not convertable and not enough is understood about China's fiancial workings)
- It doesnt make technological breakthroughs, it follows them
- It doesnt have much in the way of soft power cultural influence, and is unlikly to (seeing as how few outside China speek Chinese)
- Any political power it does have is undermined by its human rights abuses and its authroitarianism.
- Its millitary, while large is antiquated and does not have the capacity for the kind of global projection of power that the US currently does, nor does it seem to be developing this sort of power
- Forigen direcet investment is negligable compared to the EU and US
- It is highly reliant on exports, it does not have balanced trade making it vunrable to the global market economy
- Whilst economic growth has recently brought new wealth to some of China, it is not very evenly spread, near 2/3 of its people still live on less than $2 a day

Has my argument been convincing enough?

At least not for me. Much of what political power the British Empire had was arguably undermined by similar authoritarian traits; and not just in the colonies, I might add, despite the broad supremacy of Parliament over the Crown. How libertarian does 200 crimes with mandatory death sentences, which legislation being frequently and specifically targeted at the poor and/or minorities in Victorian Britain, sound to you?:rolleyes:
Again, whether authoritarianism deligitimizes power or not depends on what ethical stance you take regarding it to begin with. Despite having been raised American, since learning the deficiencies of representative government firsthand during the last two elections, I don't particularly have a problem with dictatorships myself; least of all actually civilized ones like China's current regime, or its more openly capitalist antecedents in places like Singapore. Many of those can simply OK necessary international business deals in swift order, with only what red tape is needed to ensure some gratuities are properly paid for services rendered; forget all that endless (and usually endlessly futile) if well-intentiioned debate and regulation most parliaments insist on.:headbang:
As for the economic aspect of your arguments, do keep in mind that Chinese mercantile culture, localized though it may have generally been up until now, dates back millenia before European cultures had even crawled out of slave economies and/or feudalism. Hence, although they exist now for sure, all of those problems you invoked can be either sidestepped (building up dollar or euro, and specie reserves so that the RMB doesn't have to be tinkered with; waiting for US power projection to decline when the current budgets supporting it prove unsustainable, rather than matching poor strategy for poor strategy) or addressed (rechartering state industries as private firms, or hiring competent staff for said state industries so they can actually compete on the open market; and increasing the english-language distribution of what cultural output it does export to capitalize on its undoubted cultural reputation) by China in due time. Besides which, with Chinese becoming as popular a business language now as English was shortly before it overtook French as the language of global power during the revision negotiations for the Treaty of San Stefano, China's proverbial language barrier may simply disappear in time.
In princple you have a point, China's rise isn't metaphysically inevitable or suchlike rubbish. Just VERY likely to happen within my lifetime absent some huge global hiccup, like a real "World War III" rather than the title certain CIA veterans keep trying to pass off on the Cold War.

China will become an economic superpower. It's inevitable. The pace of their growth will definitely slow in a decade or so, but the size of their market will already reach a point to challenge America for superiority.

As for a war - I think it's entirely possible. I don't expect an arms build-up, annexation of states, or fingers on launch buttons. A war over resources is my guess. Oil is an essential, but when it runs out - both powers will be forced to look for alternatives. It'll be a problem that will be solved with time. However, what can't be replaced is the need for water and other non-replenishable natural resources.

Sure, there are plenty of fresh water resources still out there, but the population is rising and due to mass pollution fresh water is starting to become less available. I'd expect China and the United States to go toe-to-toe over something as simple as water by means that I'm not sure of yet.

The 21st will be an interesting time in history to say the least. It's up to folks like me to take the stage ;)