NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/01/07/mars.life.ap/index.html

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Two NASA space probes that visited Mars 30 years ago may have found alien microbes on the Red Planet and inadvertently killed them, a scientist is theorizing.

The Viking space probes of 1976-77 were looking for the wrong kind of life, so they didn't recognize it, a geology professor at Washington State University said.

Dirk Schulze-Makuch presented his theory in a paper delivered at a meeting of the American Astronomical Society in Seattle, Washington.

The paper was released Sunday.

Based on a more expansive view of where life can take root, the paper's findings may prompt NASA to look for a different type of Martian life when its next spacecraft to visit Mars is launched later this year, one of the space agency's top scientists said.

Last month, scientists excitedly reported that new photographs of Mars showed geologic changes that suggest water occasionally flows there -- the most tantalizing sign that Mars is hospitable to life.

In the 1970s, the Viking mission found no signs of life.

But it was looking for Earth-like life, in which salt water is the internal liquid of living cells.

Given the cold dry conditions of Mars, life could have evolved on Mars with the key internal fluid consisting of a mix of water and hydrogen peroxide, said Schulze-Makuch.

That's because a water-hydrogen peroxide mix stays liquid at very low temperatures, or -68 degrees Fahrenheit, and doesn't destroy cells when it freezes. It can suck water vapor out of the air.

The Viking experiments of the 1970s wouldn't have noticed hydrogen peroxide-based life and, in fact, would have killed it by drowning and overheating the microbes, said Schulze-Makuch.

One Viking experiment seeking life on Mars poured water on soil. That would have essentially drowned hydrogen peroxide-based life, he said. And different experiment heated the soil to see if something would happen which would have baked Martian microbes.

"The problem was that they didn't have any clue about the environment on Mars at that time," Schulze-Makuch said. "This kind of adaptation makes sense from a biochemical viewpoint."

Even Earth has something somewhat related. He points to an Earth bug called the bombardier beetle that produces a boiling-hot spray that is 25 percent hydrogen peroxide as a defense weapon.

Schulze-Makuch acknowledges he can't prove that Martian microbes exist, but given the Martian environment and how evolution works, "it makes sense."

In recent years, scientists have found life on Earth in conditions that were once thought too harsh, such as an ultra-acidic river in Spain and ice-covered lakes in Antarctica.

Schulze-Makuch's research coincides with work being completed by a National Research Council panel nicknamed the "weird life" committee. The group worries that scientists may be too Earth-centric when looking for extraterrestrial life.

The problem for scientists is that "you only find what you're looking for," said Penn State University geosciences professor Katherine Freeman, a reviewer of the NRC work.

A new NASA Mars mission called Phoenix is set for launch this summer, and one of the scientists involved said he is eager to test the new theory about life on Mars.

However, scientists must come up with a way to do that using the mission's existing scientific instruments, said NASA astrobiologist and Phoenix co-investigator Chris McKay.

He said the Washington State scientist's paper piqued his interest.

"Logical consistency is nice, but it's not enough anymore," McKay said.

Other experts said the new concept is plausible, but more work is needed before they are convinced.

"I'm open to the possibility that it could be the case," said astrobiologist Mitch Sogin of the Marine Biological Lab in Woods Hole, Massachusetts.

A member of the National Research Council committee, Sogin also cautioned against "just-so stories about what is possible."

Frankly, I'm not too surprised by this. As said in the article, you only find what you're looking for. If you're not looking for a specific type of life, you'll probably kill it in the process. As far as I'm concerned, the recent findings of water on Mars, coupled with this and other studies is proof enough for me that some form of life--bacterial or otherwise--exists on Mars.

The life is underground, they're waiting to attack us. *nods*

Interplanetary, surely? </pedant>

Interplanetary, surely? </pedant>

...sssh! My brain temporarily fried itself when the power went out here for about two hours while I proceeded to become scared out of my mind. (It's one thing for the power to go out during the day. It's another for it to go out around 1:00 A.M.)

The life is underground, they're waiting to attack us. *nods*

Or sitting quietly hoping we'll go away.

"Shhh! It's the fucking Earthlings again, sent another one of those little remote control toys of theirs. Everyone just sit really quietly and we'll wait for the batteries to run out on it.

What? No, fuck you man, I'm not going out there. You've seen their broadcasts-those sick fuckers can't wait to get us on a autopsy table. I don't know what their deal is. Not to mention that they think we got nothing better to do than run around stuffing things up the asses of hillbillies. No no, fuck that. We'll just ride this shit out, those are some sick little monkeys down there."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/01/07/mars.life.ap/index.html



Frankly, I'm not too surprised by this. As said in the article, you only find what you're looking for. If you're not looking for a specific type of life, you'll probably kill it in the process. As far as I'm concerned, the recent findings of water on Mars, coupled with this and other studies is proof enough for me that some form of life--bacterial or otherwise--exists on Mars.

While possible, I will ask: can't they just accept the fact that there is NO life beyond Earth?

While possible, I will ask: can't they just accept the fact that there is NO life beyond Earth?

...I know I'm walking into a troll trap...but what makes you say that?

While possible, I will ask: can't they just accept the fact that there is NO life beyond Earth?

While possible, I will ask: can't Christians just accept the fact that there is NO God?

Oh, wait. What?

No evidence either way?

Oh shit. Nevermind me, then.

*puts on tinfoil hat*



They are coming to kill us!

The life is underground, they're waiting to attack us. *nods*

they are watching us right now (http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=mars_face_1976_full_02.jpg)

they are watching us right now (http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=mars_face_1976_full_02.jpg)

They are either enjoying what they see, or laughing at our ineptness. (http://pneumatictu.be/smile.png)*nods*

They are either enjoying what they see, or laughing at our ineptness. (http://pneumatictu.be/smile.png)*nods*

they have cute pets so they can't be that harmfull. (http://www.smartt.com/~brianp/images/face.JPG)

While possible, I will ask: can't Christians just accept the fact that there is NO God?

Oh, wait. What?

No evidence either way?

Oh shit. Nevermind me, then.

I don't know, you might want to ask them. I personally agree with you. No evidence for God, no evidence for aliens = no God, no aliens. That was your point, was it not?

...I know I'm walking into a troll trap...but what makes you say that?

Why do you assume it's a troll trap? Because I made an assertion? I'm actually curious.

Because I believe only in what my experiences tell me. Thus, I have never experienced an alien, nor has anyone, and I have no reason to believe they exist.

The life is underground, they're waiting to attack us. *nods*

*Thinks Gears of War*

While possible, I will ask: can't they just accept the fact that there is NO life beyond Earth?

Then I guess it would be an awful waste of space, with nothin' else out there.

While possible, I will ask: can't they just accept the fact that there is NO life beyond Earth?

Of course they can. But since there's no reason why there shouldn't be they just keep looking.

I don't know, you might want to ask them. I personally agree with you. No evidence for God, no evidence for aliens = no God, no aliens. That was your point, was it not?

Not at all. The fact that there's no evidence for or against God or aliens means that it makes no sense to discard either possibility.

Why do you assume it's a troll trap? Because I made an assertion? I'm actually curious.

Because I believe only in what my experiences tell me. Thus, I have never experienced an alien, nor has anyone, and I have no reason to believe they exist.

I can see why you take this stance--I use a similiar variation, that of what has been proven, for many things--but you have to understand probability. The sheer size of the universe is almost impossible to comprehend. It is at least 13 BILLION light years in diameter, containing billions upon billions of galaxies with trillions and trillions of stars. Are you going to tell me that out of all of that, the only star system to form a planet that supports life is ours? That, my friend, is sheer arrogance talking, in my opinion.

Aliens are out there, man.

Something has been mutilating my cows.

I can see why you take this stance--I use a similiar variation, that of what has been proven, for many things--but you have to understand probability. The sheer size of the universe is almost impossible to comprehend. It is at least 13 BILLION light years in diameter, containing billions upon billions of galaxies with trillions and trillions of stars. Are you going to tell me that out of all of that, the only star system to form a planet that supports life is ours? That, my friend, is sheer arrogance talking, in my opinion.

Arrogance, hubris, pride; it goes by many names. Whatever you name it doesn't change the issue: aliens don't exist. We exist, here. We presume that there are millions of galaxies, because those colorful arrangements we view in our telescopes can, in our experience, be nothing else. That does not imply that there are other forms of life. It doesn't suggest anything beyond that we can view other galaxies, other stars.

Probability. Numbers in and of themselves are meaningless. One can do all the calculations one desires, and come to the conclusion that there are so many stars that it would be arrogant to assume we are alone, and yet the only conclusive evidence is: Earth. Probability of life = 1. In the universe, mathematically it's possible life is out there. After all, what choice has man but to give in to such vast numbers, overwhelming in their magnitude and impossible in their implication? But conclusively, no, we are alone.

Then I guess it would be an awful waste of space, with nothin' else out there.

Who's to say its a waste? It's space. That's it.

Arrogance, hubris, pride; it goes by many names. Whatever you name it doesn't change the issue: aliens don't exist. We exist, here. We presume that there are millions of galaxies, because those colorful arrangements we view in our telescopes can, in our experience, be nothing else. That does not imply that there are other forms of life. It doesn't suggest anything beyond that we can view other galaxies, other stars.

Probability. Numbers in and of themselves are meaningless. One can do all the calculations one desires, and come to the conclusion that there are so many stars that it would be arrogant to assume we are alone, and yet the only conclusive evidence is: Earth. Probability of life = 1. In the universe, mathematically it's possible life is out there. After all, what choice has man but to give in to such vast numbers, overwhelming in their magnitude and impossible in their implication? But conclusively, no, we are alone.

Yeah, those darn numbers, making things like statistics possible, and even fairly accurate over increasing numbers.

Aliens are out there, man.

Something has been mutilating my cows.

Chupacabra!

Yeah, those darn numbers, making things like statistics possible, and even fairly accurate over increasing numbers.

If you find an example, you will prove my point. Because if you find an example, you will have shown everyone that those numbers have been applied and backed up by conclusive, tangible results in reality. Until that happens, statistics are theoretical. Ergo, they have no meaning outside the realm of the hypothetical.

If you find an example, you will prove my point. Because if you find an example, you will have shown everyone that those numbers have been applied and backed up by conclusive, tangible results in reality. Until that happens, statistics are theoretical. Ergo, they have no meaning outside the realm of the hypothetical.

If an alien suddenly manifested itself on the planet tomorrow, it would actually prove you dead wrong, seeing as how you just said that there were, conclusively, no aliens.

That would be like saying 'there is no planet out past Pluto, despite the high likelihood of there being one... but if there is one, I'm still right'.

Say what?

If an alien suddenly manifested itself on the planet tomorrow, it would actually prove you dead wrong, seeing as how you just said that there were, conclusively, no aliens.

That would be like saying 'there is no planet out past Pluto, despite the high likelihood of there being one... but if there is one, I'm still right'.

Say what?

My point exactly. If and alien showed up tomorrow. It hasn't, and it won't. Hypothetical. What was your point again? "Say what?" exactly.

If I had said there is not a planet outside of Pluto, I would be correct until one had been shown to exist. Exactly right. There might be one, but until it's existence is conclusive, I would be correct.

Interplanetary, surely? </pedant>
And not genocide either, xenocide...:D

Interplanetary, surely? </pedant>

And not genocide either, xenocide...:D

Those vile Americans, not content to slaughter the peace-loving natives of their own continent, now they must extend their xenophobic, xenocidal machinations even into interplanetary space! America is truly the Great Satan! Think of the children! :p

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/01/07/mars.life.ap/index.html



Frankly, I'm not too surprised by this. As said in the article, you only find what you're looking for. If you're not looking for a specific type of life, you'll probably kill it in the process. As far as I'm concerned, the recent findings of water on Mars, coupled with this and other studies is proof enough for me that some form of life--bacterial or otherwise--exists on Mars.

I'm sure it does but a scientist is theorizing that we might have killed a few microbe organisms. That does not mean it was intersteller Genocide. :rolleyes:

And not genocide either, xenocide...:D
Heehee!
I'm sure it does but a scientist is theorizing that we might have killed a few microbe organisms. That does not mean it was intersteller Genocide. :rolleyes:
Hence the humourous title. :rolleyes: backatcha.

Interplanetary, surely? </pedant>

Nope, Intergalactic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HBKW155-KQ)

Or sitting quietly hoping we'll go away.

"Shhh! It's the fucking Earthlings again, sent another one of those little remote control toys of theirs. Everyone just sit really quietly and we'll wait for the batteries to run out on it.

What? No, fuck you man, I'm not going out there. You've seen their broadcasts-those sick fuckers can't wait to get us on a autopsy table. I don't know what their deal is. Not to mention that they think we got nothing better to do than run around stuffing things up the asses of hillbillies. No no, fuck that. We'll just ride this shit out, those are some sick little monkeys down there."

That is among the funniest things I have ever heard.

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/9153/sealofapprovalpq1.png



*Hands over squalking baby white seal*

You are now the proud owner of a Wanderjarian Seal of Approval. You are permitted to add your prestigious accomplishment into your sig. Good job.

While possible, I will ask: can't they just accept the fact that there is NO life beyond Earth?
But then they'll never get to live out their Star Trek/Wars fantasies.
Aliens are out there, man.

Something has been mutilating my cows.

Yeah.......sorry about that. >.> <.<

But then they'll never get to live out their Star Trek/Wars fantasies.

Who needs aliens for that? Princess Leia's all you need. :D

Who's to say its a waste? It's space. That's it.

Not only that, but I'd imagine it would be more than a bit boring if we found out that we were the only one's riding this crotch rocket. Someone's gotta be in the bitch seat after all.

http://www.linenoiz.com/pics/funny/its_a_conspiracy.jpg

Don't you see NASA is getting rid of life on Maes so we can colonise it. Its a big mistake man. Soon Martians will revolt against this genocide with the help of:

http://www.geocities.com/zoidberg_fan/scanart/lrr_dude.gif

Lrrr Of Omicron Persei 8 !!

Not only that, but I'd imagine it would be more than a bit boring if we found out that we were the only one's riding this crotch rocket. Someone's gotta be in the bitch seat after all.

Yes, but why would it be boring? Are you not satisfied with your own life that space bothers you that much?

My point exactly. If and alien showed up tomorrow. It hasn't, and it won't. Hypothetical. What was your point again? "Say what?" exactly.

If I had said there is not a planet outside of Pluto, I would be correct until one had been shown to exist. Exactly right. There might be one, but until it's existence is conclusive, I would be correct.

Man, I would hate to play cards with you.

"I win."
"But you have a 3, a 4, a jack, a nine, and a 7."
"I win."
"That's what I had last time."
"I win."

I for one am not looking forward to the time when the martians shall exact their revenge for the ones we killed. :(

My point exactly. If and alien showed up tomorrow. It hasn't, and it won't. Hypothetical. What was your point again? "Say what?" exactly.

If I had said there is not a planet outside of Pluto, I would be correct until one had been shown to exist. Exactly right. There might be one, but until it's existence is conclusive, I would be correct.
No, you would have been wrong since that planet was out there before we saw it and didn't pop into existance when we got a better telescope. The only instance this would be right would be 'man can't fly' which would be true until some bicycle mechanics went nuts at Kitty Hawk. (or other instances-don't want to start that debate...)

But, and this is whats missing, there is evidence beyond the statistical. I mean, this article talks about some evidence of at least microbial life, we find life building blocks on meteors, etc. So there is evidence that is reason enough to keep looking. While not certain, it is likely, and thats why we look.

My point exactly. If and alien showed up tomorrow. It hasn't, and it won't. Hypothetical. What was your point again? "Say what?" exactly.

If I had said there is not a planet outside of Pluto, I would be correct until one had been shown to exist. Exactly right. There might be one, but until it's existence is conclusive, I would be correct.

There is a china teapot in an elliptical orbit around the sun between Earth and Mars, but it is far too small to be detected by even our most powerful telescopes.

This being correct thing is fun.

Man, I would hate to play cards with you.

"I win."
"But you have a 3, a 4, a jack, a nine, and a 7."
"I win."
"That's what I had last time."
"I win."

You obviously haven't played "I Win" before.

How do they know they didn't bring the life with them? Microbes on the probe's hull and all that. We may have contaminated another planet with Terran lifeforms.

How do they know they didn't bring the life with them? Microbes on the probe's hull and all that. We may have contaminated another planet with Terran lifeforms.

They haven't found any - the scientist was speculating on the fact that we may be looking in the wrong places.

Oh, and almost all terran life doesn't use hydrogen peroxide.

And not genocide either, xenocide...:D

Ender = Awesome. Shame I'm the only one that caught the word xenocide like that....

Man, I would hate to play cards with you.

"I win."
"But you have a 3, a 4, a jack, a nine, and a 7."
"I win."
"That's what I had last time."
"I win."

:)

I win.

No, you would have been wrong since that planet was out there before we saw it and didn't pop into existance when we got a better telescope. The only instance this would be right would be 'man can't fly' which would be true until some bicycle mechanics went nuts at Kitty Hawk. (or other instances-don't want to start that debate...)

But, and this is whats missing, there is evidence beyond the statistical. I mean, this article talks about some evidence of at least microbial life, we find life building blocks on meteors, etc. So there is evidence that is reason enough to keep looking. While not certain, it is likely, and thats why we look.

I would have been correct until I was proven wrong. Current knowledge determines right and wrong. Thus, when proven wrong, I would be. Until then, the assumption is I am correct.

There is a china teapot in an elliptical orbit around the sun between Earth and Mars, but it is far too small to be detected by even our most powerful telescopes.

This being correct thing is fun.

Great. Now someone's going to have to go out there, search the ENTIRE space between Earth and Mars, searching for that freaking teapot, just to prove or disprove your assertion. I hope you're happy. :mad: :D