NationStates Jolt Archive

Sounds strange yes. But as I constantly see in video games and movies, (which seems ridiculous at time, for example Band of Brothers, for every 1 American soldier you see die, 25 Germans are salughtered...was this the kill ration in WWII?) I find a mild sense of respect. My grandfather fought in Iwo Jima, and I'm incredibly proud of what our boys did too free Europe and the oppressed South pacific regions, but lets think here.

Sure- we hate the causes. Fascists in Germany, we hated them. Imperialist war mongers in Japan, we hated them. Fascists in Italy...Loved their spaghetti but hated them. Should we let these causes which some of the poor men followed too death, blind us from the sheer heroism of our once enemies?

Lets put this in perspective, you hate an axis soldier for killing an Allied soldier. Of course. But what of all those who died? The young boy from Hamburg who was thrown a rifle, and forced too the Atlantic wall. He is 93 now, do you respect him? Does it matter if he killed an individual of your previous generation? Do you admire him for answering his countries call of duty? Do you hate the young Japanese man, for being fed lies by his government, causing him too man a plan, too attack or defend against American ships?

In the end, do Axis veterans deserve any respect from the citizens of the US, Canada, Britain, France and Russia today? I know WWII is far from being behind us, this is fact.

Personally I have a subdued sense of respect for the axis soldiers. I am sickened too think they killed someones grandfather, but what of his grandsons grandfather?

Im option 2, I forgot too add "soldier" too the end, just too let you know.

Veterans deserve no more respect then anyone else. They ought to be thanked, yes, but they deserve no more respect.

Certain individuals may "deserve" to be respected for a paticular action in battle or for another "honorable" deed.

As for the Axis soldiers specifically, many were drafted as on our side. I would say that that definately doesn't earn them anymore respect. Maybe if they went voluntarily, maybe. As for the ideologies, I admire their patriotism and courage (which are virtues they had) but the evil parts of their ideologies overshadow those.

It was what they were taught to believe, so I wouldn't hold it against them for serving a cause they believed in, but I'm not going to raise them up on a pedastal.

On the other hand, if they were to publicly recant their beliefs and openly state that they'd made a mistake, I'd be willing to give them a bit more leniency. To admit that you were wrong takes a lot of guts, espescially on something along these lines.

I have an immense respect for Axis soldiers they fought valiantly beyond the end in intolerable condition with a terrible leadership and the fear of being killed by your own secret police

And to be honest I don’t care if they where the ”baddies” they were brave soldiers anything else is irrelevant

oh and WWII is over lets stop bringing it up

If we can respect Soviet veterans, we can respect Axis veterans.

But as it stands, I respect neither.

I don't respect most veterans anyway, so why should former Axis veterans be any different?

I do.

First, they survived. That is something. Being shot upon is not funny.

Second, in those days, you didnt had an option. Every able hand went to war, and if you didnt, you were shot. Not a lot of options.

Third, they are still alive after all these years.

You see, most Axis soldiers didnt knew shit what was going on. The media was controled, and they were drafted without options.

Also, history is writen by the winners. I´m pretty sure in 50 years, if you read a Iraq history book, americans will look as bad as the nazi.

oh and WWII is over lets stop bringing it up

You heared the man. Everyone repress all memories of any war that has occured in history.

Sure, why not? They were just fighting for their fatherland, just like all other veterans.

Hmm, the results of this thread have been surprising.

You heared the man. Everyone repress all memories of any war that has occured in history.

no just WWII and any other war that is done over and over to death, heck WWII was just a continuation of the war of the world IMHO which is a far more important a subject

If we could blank out WWII and the roman empire for just one day it would be lovely but no we have to get it over and over because we all secretly wish the Nazis had won and Rome had kept going

Hmm, the results of this thread have been surprising.

you expected us to spit on war veterans maybe?

no just WWII and any other war that is done over and over to death, heck WWII was just a continuation of the war of the world IMHO which is a far more important a subject

If we could blank out WWII and the roman empire for just one day it would be lovely but no we have to get it over and over because we all secretly wish the Nazis had won and Rome and kept going

Nazis were kinda cute.

Interesting question. I'd have to say that, regarding Axis soldiers who killed only armed enemy soldiers, not unarmed civilians, I can respect their courage as much as that of any other soldier.

When you were a young German or Japanese dressed in uniform and sent to fight, and you found yourself with British or Australian or Fijian (etc...) soldiers firing at you, you couldn't really be faulted for firing back.

I dislike Axis war veterans for following such corrupt and immoral causes, and not rebelling.

I don't respect most veterans anyway, so why should former Axis veterans be any different?
Yeah, this is my opinion. Pacifism ftw!

I respect the X-Axis. Definatly not the Y-Axis. Those bastards.

The Axis armies were made of people, much like the Allied armies were. They experienced fear, love, distrust, betrayal, and the whole range of human emotions as the Allies did.

I thus see no reason to prefer one army to the other, based on what I have stated above.

you expected us to spit on war veterans maybe?

uhm perhaps if it was the guy who bayonted your grandpa through the chest? (I hope you get my point)

It takes a lot more courage to refuse your superiors than it does to fire on the enemy.

Regular soldiers? Generally, yes. Many of them were either drafted or were simply fighting to protect themselves against an enemy that threatened them.

I have no respect for the SS or any of the other elite units that were involved in the Holocaust, the atrocities in Poland, or any of the other crimes against humanity that the Nazi regime perpetrated. They were evil men who willfully committed brutal atrocities against people they fully knew were innocent, and deserve utter contempt just like any mass murderers. Those men do not deserve any respect whatsoever.

None of these really fit my opinion

I would respect any soldier for answering the call of duty

however, I wouldn't respect any SS officer or somene else aware of the viscious goings on in the concentration camps or any other person that committed such monstrosities

as someone else put it, if they killed a loved one of mine... well id be angry and disgusted

how some of you can completely disregard soldiers that fight and risk their lives to defend something they believe in, or even soldiers that were drafter is beyond me

If America was blamed for a war it was not responsible, divided up like a conquered country even though it had been winning the war, and had been sanctioned out of revenge by imperialist nations, I am sure that many Americans would fight against those nations that had done those things to America in order to protect their nation and dignity. This is what happened to Germany. If we should hate anyone, it should be the WW1 allies.

Nazis were kinda cute.

they had those damn snazzy uniforms and kick ass planes ect who had tacky green with a helmet that made you look like a mushroom

A funny story is once my little cousin was playing tin soldiers and I asked why the greys always massacred the colours he actually thought they where the “goodies”

uhm perhaps if it was the guy who bayonted your grandpa through the chest? (I hope you get my point)

War is war, shit happens and don't pretend for a second that I don't understand what you mean

-
I love your sig.:)

WWII was just a continuation of the war of the world IMHO which is a far more important a subject


Yeah, those damn Marsians in their three-legged walkers, damn them to Hades!! :p

Seriously though, the question seems slightly off really. Do you respect those who fought for the allies? If the answer is yes, then I fail to see any reason to have any lack of respect for the Axis soldiers. They fought bravely and, especially later in the war, for their families and homes. We would expect nothing but respect for those who fought in the allies cause, so why should we expect less for them.

Sounds strange yes. But as I constantly see in video games and movies, (which seems ridiculous at time, for example Band of Brothers, for every 1 American soldier you see die, 25 Germans are salughtered...was this the kill ration in WWII?)

Heh. The Allied/Axis military casualty rate was roughly 2:1. If you count civilians, it was about 4:1. Video games and (propagandistic) war movies are not a good guide to history.

In the end, do Axis veterans deserve any respect from the citizens of the US, Canada, Britain, France and Russia today? I know WWII is far from being behind us, this is fact.

Personally I have a subdued sense of respect for the axis soldiers. I am sickened too think they killed someones grandfather, but what of his grandsons grandfather?

I have a sense of respect about the same for any veteran who wasn't involved in war crimes.

Do you respect Axis war veterans?
Yes, I have great respect for them serving the call of duty- regardless of what they may have done
I have a small sense of respect for them, but the thought of them killing an allied...
I dislike Axis war veterans for following such corrupt and immoral causes, and not rebelling.
I hate and loath axis war veterans.

A fairly limited poll, considering you could have put up to ten options, especially with you're qualifiers. I'd have to answer option X:
"Yes, I have great respect for those who served the call of duty with honor, and naught but contempt for those who did not."
(Note: that includes both those who fought for their country and those who opposed the war, but not those who engaged in attrocities.)

I respect veterans of any war, no matter which side they were on, but if they did something bad,(kill innocents, the like) they deserve to all be treated the same.

I have no respect for the SS or any of the other elite units that were involved in the Holocaust, the atrocities in Poland, or any of the other crimes against humanity that the Nazi regime perpetrated.
The thing is, you can't make a clear distinction. Many Wehrmacht units were involved in questionable acts or outright war crimes, and many Waffen-SS people were not.

As it is, I have no more nor less respect for them than I have for anyone else. The civilians experienced just as much horror as the soldiers, except they didn't even have the feeling they could change anything about the situation.

But yes, I try to be weary of everyone, on both sides. There've been plenty of cases of US Soldiers shooting people they shouldn't have shot, and the policy of shooting anyone in a black uniform (which included the SS, but also the Reichsbahn train workers) was an outright war crime, in my opinion.

Old soldiers don't usually brag about bad things they've done, they'll tell you everything was just peachy in that respect.

it doesn't really make a difference to me, if they were born in the US they would probably be allied veterans. but i don't have more respect for veterans than for any other person.

War is war, shit happens and don't pretend for a second that I don't understand what you mean

Im not, I just felt you were responding too my quote wit h an over simplified answer. I meant no harm. Still, no matter what came of it, id imagine there'd be some sort of disdain. If a guy hits a relative of yours and kills him accidentally, its not the same as war. War explains the situation and provides a better case for amnesty from guilt. If thats what your saying I completely agree.

And a note too everyone, I made this thread, with the intent of excluding those who served in the SS and Gestapo, and were directly involved in attrocities, along with Japaneese who murdered Chineese civilians, etc. We're looking at the masses of grunts ordered too battle. The generic foot soldiers, along with the airmen, sailors and whatnot.

Anyway I just find it so funny, you cant see a WWII movie with at least 10:1 kill ratio in favor of the allied soldiers. That may have ended the war soonwe if that was the case, otherwise its laughable. I know on the eastern front the German were killing 10 Russians for every one of thiers dead, this is fact.

I know on the eastern front the German were killing 10 Russians for every one of thiers dead, this is fact.
Maybe if you count civilians too.

Anyways, there are good WWII movies out there in which it isn't as ridiculous. In fact, most of the older movies and everything that isn't from Hollywood comes to mind.

Das Boot, Battle of Britain, Stalingrad and so on. Even Band of Brothers and Saving Private Ryan are pretty realistic.

"Windtalkers" not so much. :p

Still, no matter what came of it, id imagine there'd be some sort of disdain. If a guy hits a relative of yours and kills him accidentally, its not the same as war. War explains the situation and provides a better case for amnesty from guilt. If thats what your saying I completely agree.

oh I'm saying shit happens in general if a person killed a loved one I would of course first be extremely annoyed with the person responsible but life isn’t like that you have to forgive and forget a big part of what makes us alive if you ask me

good Gods I’m deep tonight:(

Stalingrad

the best war film I've ever seen

about as much as i'd respect any veteran. they may well have done brave stuff in horrible situations, for that they get respect. but at the end of the day they are just another poor fool who got caught up in someone elses pointless war. for that get my sympathy.

Maybe if you count civilians too.

Anyways, there are good WWII movies out there in which it isn't as ridiculous. In fact, most of the older movies and everything that isn't from Hollywood comes to mind.

Das Boot, Battle of Britain, Stalingrad and so on. Even Band of Brothers and Saving Private Ryan are pretty realistic.

"Windtalkers" not so much. :p

Im gonna have too disagree with you on Saving Provate Ryan and BOB. Both terrific films, dont get me wrong.

In BOB, a platoon runs over a small hill. The some 30 American soldiers kill 100Germans while wounding 150 more... The germans fire about 6 shots in all this.

In the movie, someone is wounded, but this is in the process of wiping out at least two enemy squads =/ (BOB, and SPR)

In SPR, factually the ending scenes are close too riddiculous. About 3 squads hold off what, 2 companies? A battalion? Im inclined too believe it against that, but hey, thier were plenty of heroes then.

As for counting civilans as well, the ratio would be far more differnt. It would be some for every 1 german dead, 5 russians, if you count the number of German civilans who died in bombing and artillery raids, along with women raped and children murdered... The ratio is more like 1:3 in favor in the germans, in soldier death terms. (this includes USSR forces, like Poland etc)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Front_%28World_War_II%29

Im inclined too believe it against that, but hey, thier were plenty of heroes then.
Well, they had plenty of advisors and eye witnesses and all sorts of other knowledgable people.

In war it's not always a fair 1:1 fight. Surprise attacks or good defensive positions can lead to all sorts of outcomes. There's plenty of cases of Germans doing the same thing to Allied troops. Wittmann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Villers-Bocage) comes to mind.

Well, they had plenty of advisors and eye witnesses and all sorts of other knowledgable people.

In war it's not always a fair 1:1 fight. Surprise attacks or good defensive positions can lead to all sorts of outcomes. There's plenty of cases of Germans doing the same thing to Allied troops. Wittmann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Villers-Bocage) comes to mind.

Did I say its ever a 1:1 fight? (looks at my eastern front post)

Its just when I saw tiger tanks exploding due too greasy socks, and a sniper killing some 30 guys before being taken out (could have happened...) im inclined too skepticism.

And then Hanks begins lobbing sensitive mortar rounds at them, killing some 15 more, thats when I said "Oh come now..."

Its just when I saw tiger tanks exploding due too greasy socks...
Filled with explosives. (http://www.sproe.com/s/sticky-bomb.html)

...and a sniper killing some 30 guys before being taken out (could have happened...) im inclined too skepticism.
Indeed. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4)

And then Hanks begins lobbing sensitive mortar rounds at them, killing some 15 more, thats when I said "Oh come now..."
Well, you need a bit of artistic freedom. But as I said, the situations in the two movies are taken from actual events, and very often people who were actually there were involved in the production.

My heart goes out to veterans. They were forced to fight and butcher other humans while thier friends and allies were killed around them.



On a related note, I saw Letters From Iwo Jima the other week, great movie.

Filled with explosives. (http://www.sproe.com/s/sticky-bomb.html)


Indeed. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4)


Well, you need a bit of artistic freedom. But as I said, the situations in the two movies are taken from actual events, and very often people who were actually there were involved in the production.

Mhmm. Ive heared of those female Russian snipers. Man could they rack up the kills... Still I see these as somewhat overdramitizations, no matter which way you slice it.

Old soldiers don't usually brag about bad things they've done, they'll tell you everything was just peachy in that respect.

Old soldiers often say very little at all about their war. A good example is my brother's neighbor. About three and a half years ago, my brother bought a little farm here in Iowa (where I'm on vacation this month). Down the road, he has an older neighbor. My brother lived here more than a year before he found out that he was a WWII vet - a Navy corpsman who'd earned several awards for bravery, and had been in that hell known as Guadalcanal, among other places. Even then, he only knew that because the gentleman's son mentioned it on Vetran's Day.

Depends. I can respect most of the Japanese soldiers (Except those who performed medical tests on the chinese or similar atrocities), But I cannot respect any german soldier who served at a concentration camp.

Depends. I can respect most of the Japanese soldiers (Except those who performed medical tests on the chinese or similar atrocities), But I cannot respect any german soldier who served at a concentration camp.

I adressed this somewhere in page 2. Thanks for stating your opinion though. Any input on Italians or Romanians?

I'm very proud of my great-grandfather. He was an Axis draft-dodger.

I have respect for the soldiers of the Axis, slightly lesser for the Italians but respect none the less.

I would respect them, because many were not true blue Nazis/fascists, they were just conscripted or they volunteered to protect their country. Even if they did support Nazism/Fascism, they were taught to believe in that idealogy, they also would have seen it as a manifestation of their country.

I judge people based on a sum of their actions that I’m aware of. Some axis soldiers I can respect, others not.

If America was blamed for a war it was not responsible, divided up like a conquered country even though it had been winning the war, and had been sanctioned out of revenge by imperialist nations, I am sure that many Americans would fight against those nations that had done those things to America in order to protect their nation and dignity. This is what happened to Germany. If we should hate anyone, it should be the WW1 allies.

THANK YOU! :fluffle:

I judge people based on a sum of their actions that I’m aware of. Some axis soldiers I can respect, others not.

Exactly...

...although the higher the rank, the more they knew, and the more they could concievably have done to prevent the more horrific of the abuses.

Taking that into account, the privates generally deserve respect, while the colonels and generals, generally, do not.

I'm going to say "general" one more time, just for fun. :p

If America was blamed for a war it was not responsible, divided up like a conquered country even though it had been winning the war, and had been sanctioned out of revenge by imperialist nations, I am sure that many Americans would fight against those nations that had done those things to America in order to protect their nation and dignity. This is what happened to Germany. If we should hate anyone, it should be the WW1 allies.Everyone shares blame in WW1, not just the Allies.

Everyone shares blame in WW1, not just the Allies.

The Allies get the blame for how it ended. The next most costly war in history, the Napoleonic Wars, in which France occupied, subjugated and tore through much of Europe, ended on far better terms for the defeated.

The Allies get the blame for how it ended. The next most costly war in history, the Napoleonic Wars, in which France occupied, subjugated and tore through much of Europe, ended on far better terms for the defeated.You're detracting from the point. Kohlstein sounded as though Germany was completely innocent. Kaiser Bill had his fair share of blame for starting that war.

Sounds strange yes. But as I constantly see in video games and movies, (which seems ridiculous at time, for example Band of Brothers, for every 1 American soldier you see die, 25 Germans are salughtered...was this the kill ration in WWII?) I find a mild sense of respect. My grandfather fought in Iwo Jima, and I'm incredibly proud of what our boys did too free Europe and the oppressed South pacific regions, but lets think here.

Sure- we hate the causes. Fascists in Germany, we hated them. Imperialist war mongers in Japan, we hated them. Fascists in Italy...Loved their spaghetti but hated them. Should we let these causes which some of the poor men followed too death, blind us from the sheer heroism of our once enemies?

Lets put this in perspective, you hate an axis soldier for killing an Allied soldier. Of course. But what of all those who died? The young boy from Hamburg who was thrown a rifle, and forced too the Atlantic wall. He is 93 now, do you respect him? Does it matter if he killed an individual of your previous generation? Do you admire him for answering his countries call of duty? Do you hate the young Japanese man, for being fed lies by his government, causing him too man a plan, too attack or defend against American ships?

In the end, do Axis veterans deserve any respect from the citizens of the US, Canada, Britain, France and Russia today? I know WWII is far from being behind us, this is fact.

Personally I have a subdued sense of respect for the axis soldiers. I am sickened too think they killed someones grandfather, but what of his grandsons grandfather?

my father was a veteran he never expressed any hatred for his former enemy, my mother wasn't so forgiving(we lived in occupied europe)...

my father was a veteran he never expressed any hatred for his former enemy, my mother wasn't so forgiving(we lived in occupied europe)...

Whereabouts? If by occupied, I get the sense your refering too subjugated eastern europe under the USSR.

Everyone shares blame in WW1, not just the Allies.

agreed, it was imperialism at its worst, both sides were guilty....

Whereabouts? If by occupied, I get the sense your refering too subjugated eastern europe under the USSR.

Netherlands...probably better conditions than eastern Europe endured but seeing you neighbours executed, hiding from the deadly labour raids, being threatened with execution and rape and starved does leave a permanent mark on your life...

Netherlands...probably better conditions than eastern Europe endured but seeing you neighbours executed, hiding from the deadly labour raids, being threatened with execution and rape and starved does leave a permanent mark on your life...

This happened in the Netherlands?? Was this due too war damages and lack of order? I always thought post WWII western europe under US and Canadian aid did relativly well.

This happened in the Netherlands?? Was this due too war damages and lack of order? I always thought post WWII western europe under US and Canadian aid did relativly well.

those were the conditions during the German occupation...post war life improved considerably(there was food again) other than the odd drunken brawl the locals had no issues with Canadians and Americans.....

Old soldiers often say very little at all about their war.
True.

Either way, they won't tell you they were part of the Totenkopf SS.

I have respect for any man who fights for his country - but that respect is dependent upon their actions. I don't think anyone will object to the fact that I despise any member of the Totenkopf brigades with a passion. But I also hold the Air Defense Corps of the Luftwaffe (the guys who tried (and ultimately failed) to defend their homeland against wave after wave of Allied bombers) as among the bravest and best men of their generation, just as I see the members of Chuikof's Eighth Army at Stalingrad, or the British, Canadian and American men of the first assault waves against Normandy.

I remember something once.

A teacher was telling a bunch of 5th graders about D-Day when one of the kids spoke up.
"My Grandfather was there."
The teacher excited that there was someone who knew more about it began to question the child.
"So he came in on the boats?"
"No."
Confused she went on to her second idea.
"So he must have dropped with the paratroops?"
"No."
Giving up she asked. "Well where was he?"
"Guarding the beach."

I respect those on both sides who joined up voluntarily, for entering a warzone for what they believed in. I respect the Axis (and possibly Russian, not so sure on recruiting practices there) who dodged the draft and risked death for what they believed in. I do not respect anyone involved in systemic attrocities, but on all sides there were cases of spontaneous illegal behaviour caused by anger and stress, and I think that while it was certainly the wrong thing do to, no-one deserves to be hated for it.

A teacher was telling a bunch of 5th graders about D-Day when one of the kids spoke up.
"My Grandfather was there."
The teacher excited that there was someone who knew more about it began to question the child.
"So he came in on the boats?"
"No."
Confused she went on to her second idea.
"So he must have dropped with the paratroops?"
"No."
Giving up she asked. "Well where was he?"
"Guarding the beach."

OWNAGE.

Lets put this in perspective, you hate an axis soldier for killing an Allied soldier.

Why? Killing an allied soldier was his duty, and lots of chances are that if he didn't, he would have been killed by the allies. For the same reason, I don't hate the russian soldier who shot one of my grandfathers (an italian soldier during WW2) in the leg - nor did my grandfather hate him.
Killing unarmed civilians, that's another thing. I can't justify "Bomber" Harris who ordered the terrorist bombing of Axis cities with total disregard of civilian losses, or Hermann Goering who did the same on English cities. And also hate even more Axis war criminals like the Totenkopf SS, the italian Muti fascist brigade and their likes - a bunch of criminals who happily massacred civilians in the occupied territories while regular soldiers were fighting and getting slaughtered in heaps at the front.

I recognise a great difference between fascist criminals, and regular soldiers of the Axis. Most of the german and italian regular fighting forces were just soldiers obeying orders - and weren't war criminals.

Kaiser Bill had his fair share of blame for starting that war.

Mmhh... the Three Emperor's Treaty forced him to do so following the declaration of war of Russia against Austria-Hungary - and it was France who declared war on Germany iirc, the Entente was very happy to take the chance to smash the rising industrial power of Germany. Anyway, Germany has the huge blame in WW1 of invading neutral countries like Belgium.

Everyone shares blame in WW1, not just the Allies.
Probably more than any other war in history, the principle of "what if they had a war, and nobody came?" could have been so easily applied. The fact that the "enemy" soldiers celebrated Christmas together demonstrated just how hollow and absolutely unjustifiable that war was.

Regular soldiers? Generally, yes. Many of them were either drafted or were simply fighting to protect themselves against an enemy that threatened them.
Read history. Germany was the expansionist power. The Allies only threatened them because they were defending themselves from invasion.

I have no respect for the SS or any of the other elite units that were involved in the Holocaust, the atrocities in Poland, or any of the other crimes against humanity that the Nazi regime perpetrated. They were evil men who willfully committed brutal atrocities against people they fully knew were innocent, and deserve utter contempt just like any mass murderers. Those men do not deserve any respect whatsoever.
But you respect those who fight the Allies, to stop them from discovering the SS and the concentration camps?

But you respect those who fight the Allies, to stop them from discovering the SS and the concentration camps?
I doubt that was their intention though.

Read history. Germany was the expansionist power. The Allies only threatened them because they were defending themselves from invasion.


history is never as simple as it may appear, what appears at first as German expansionism started much earlier.

The Rhine River, running through very fertile provinces, had long been the target Cardinal Richelieu, who, as prime minister of Louis XIII, had waged 14 years of war to acquire key territories along the High Rhine, with the presumption that the Rhine River was a God-given "natural border of France."

So France's early aggressive land grabs from ethnic Germans in the early 1600's resulted in repeated wars, ultimately ww2 being the final conflict.