NationStates Jolt Archive


Commander in Chief Justice Bush

Denspace
06-01-2007, 21:30
In reading the news today, I came across the following alligation "Bush claims power to open Americans' mail without warrants" in the Christian Science Monitor (http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0105/dailyUpdate.html)

The article says:

In a move that experts say contradicted the postal reform bill he had just signed into law, President Bush quietly issued a "signing statement" two weeks ago that claimed he has the right to open Americans' first-class US mail without a judge's warrant. The New York Daily News reports that the signing statement was issued on Dec. 20 after the president signed the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act, an act which dealt with mostly 'mundane reform measures' but which also strongly reinforced protections against opening mail without a warrant.

The Daily News says those who have seen the signing statement say it seems to take executive authority far beyond even the limits the Bush administration has pursued in the past few years, and in ways such that the new powers could be easily abused.

"The [Bush] signing statement claims authority to open domestic mail without a warrant, and that would be new and quite alarming," said Kate Martin, director of the Center for National Security Studies in Washington.

"The danger is they're reading Americans' mail," she said.

"You have to be concerned," agreed a career senior US official who reviewed the legal underpinnings of Bush's claim. "It takes Executive Branch authority beyond anything we've ever known."

Dan Froomkin notes in his Washington Post "White House Briefing" blog that even though the Daily News was two weeks late on the story, it still has a scoop because Mr. Bush's signing statements "have been widely ignored by the traditional media." The one exception was the piece by Charles Savage of the Boston Globe that showed that as of April last year, Bush had issued 750 signing statements that said he had the authority to disobey laws enacted by Congress (and signed into law by him) if he thought it was appropriate.

In another article Mr. Froomkin wrote for the Nieman Watchdog site, which is produced by the Nieman Foundation at Harvard University, Froomkin said that Bush's repeated use of signing statements raises important constitutional questions. He points to an article by Phillip Cooper, a Portland State University public administration professor, which shows how the Bush administration has sought to expand executive powers.

The administration's default position has been, when in doubt challenge legislative provisions whether there is a serious issue or not. As has been true of other uses and abuses of presidential direct action in recent administrations, the dangers here are several, one of the most important of which is to further damage the long-standing informal working relationships that permit the White House and Congress to get essential work done even in the midst of partisan and ideological differences.... This problem is exacerbated by the tendency not only to claim authority but to assert that the power is solely and exclusively vested in the president. Related to that problem is the tendency not only to reinterpret language in legislation but to reject outright what are mandatory provisions of bills. The tendency, to the point of creation of a standard practice, during the Bush first term to reject mandatory provisions of legislation and convert them into advisory provisions or to treat them as precatory is nothing less than a post-congressional amendment process without benefit of either bicameralism or presentment.

Jurist reports that the Bush administration defended the signing statement, "dismissing arguments" that the statement changes administration policy on when mail can be opened without a warrant. The Associated Press reports that White House Press Secretary Tony Snow also defended the president's actions.

In his daily briefing Snow said: "All this is saying is that there are provisions at law for - in exigent circumstances - for such inspections. It has been thus. This is not a change in law, this is not new."
Postal Vice President Tom Day added: "As has been the long-standing practice, first-class mail is protected from unreasonable search and seizure when in postal custody. Nothing in the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act changes this protection. The president is not exerting any new authority."

The American Civil Liberties Union issued a press release Thursday saying it would file a Freedom of Information Act request "seeking information about President Bush's statement that he is authorized to open people's mail without a warrant, in emergency conditions."


A link to the Globe Article (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/04/30/bush_challenges_hundreds_of_laws/?page=7) (which is at least 9 pages so I did not want to post it here.)

I hope that people will read this and post their reflections. I might post mine later. I did not want to bias my initial post.

With the new Congress, who will undoubtedly conflict with the Executive Branch over constitutional authority, this is a point that will be important in the next 2 years. Both articles mention how little public attention this has recieved. To legitimise (or condemm) these signing statements requires the public to make a decision and support one branch against the other.

Note: The title represents Bush's power as Commander in Chief on the one hand and the alligations that these statements present a "final interpretation" of legislation, the perogative of the Chief Justice.
Lacadaemon
06-01-2007, 22:49
Within the next few months my bank will report several transactions to the government. All without a warrant.

Nobody gives a fuck about that. I refuse to care about this.
Denspace
06-01-2007, 23:05
That may be true for the mail aspect. I would then ask you whether the fact Bush has authorised himself the ability to ignore 750 laws enacted by Congress concern you?
Almighty America
06-01-2007, 23:41
I don't think that's relevant. What is relevant is what people are going to do about it. Effectively, nothing.
Applesa Uce
07-01-2007, 00:07
Good. Our President is just trying to protect us from harm. It is a new world in which certain people wish to see us dead and will go at any length to do it. The days of armed invasions are over for the most part. I support President Bush and hope this new plan will help defeat the terrorists and prevent further attacks.
Allegheny County 2
07-01-2007, 01:00
IF TRUE,

Where is the outrage from the Democrats?
CthulhuFhtagn
07-01-2007, 01:09
IF TRUE,

Where is the outrage from the Democrats?

Ah, Corny, nice to have the partisan hackery back. The story just broke, for God's sake. This is almost as bad as when you attacked the Democrats for not doing anything in Congress even though they hadn't taken power at the time. (And still haven't for the record.)
Greater Valia
07-01-2007, 01:12
IF TRUE,

Where is the outrage from the Democrats?

As pointed out in another thread, a moderate Republican has expressed concern over this.

Here is the link to the other thread I mentioned. http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=513529
CthulhuFhtagn
07-01-2007, 01:13
As pointed out in another thread, a moderate Republican has expressed concern over this.

Obviously Bush is a stealth Democrat, like Foley.
Allegheny County 2
07-01-2007, 01:14
Ah, Corny, nice to have the partisan hackery back. The story just broke, for God's sake. This is almost as bad as when you attacked the Democrats for not doing anything in Congress even though they hadn't taken power at the time. (And still haven't for the record.)

So far nothing on CNN nor on Fox News. If it just broke, it would also be there. Excuse me while I remain somewhat skepticle.
Allegheny County 2
07-01-2007, 01:14
As pointed out in another thread, a moderate Republican has expressed concern over this.

So I saw but apparently, it is not making a big splash in the world of news.
Greater Valia
07-01-2007, 01:17
Obviously Bush is a stealth Democrat, like Foley.

He certainly doesn't act like a Republican (contrary to what many here will say).
Fartsniffage
07-01-2007, 01:17
So far nothing on CNN nor on Fox News. If it just broke, it would also be there. Excuse me while I remain somewhat skepticle.

Skeptical of what?
CthulhuFhtagn
07-01-2007, 01:19
So far nothing on CNN nor on Fox News. If it just broke, it would also be there. Excuse me while I remain somewhat skepticle.

You expect Fox to run anything that might make Bush look bad?
Allegheny County 2
07-01-2007, 01:23
You expect Fox to run anything that might make Bush look bad?

Yes as they have done so in the past.
CthulhuFhtagn
07-01-2007, 01:24
Yes as they have done so in the past.

Forgive me if I doubt that Fox, the channel that ran a story about how full-fledged Civil War in Iraq could be a good thing, will run this without making it look like Bush is a fucking demigod.
Rhaomi
07-01-2007, 01:26
So far nothing on CNN nor on Fox News. If it just broke, it would also be there. Excuse me while I remain somewhat skepticle.

Fox is Bush's cheerleader, and CNN is apparently preoccupied with convicted former legislators still receiving Congressional pensions.
Allegheny County 2
07-01-2007, 01:30
Forgive me if I doubt that Fox, the channel that ran a story about how full-fledged Civil War in Iraq could be a good thing, will run this without making it look like Bush is a fucking demigod.

They have run many reports that would cast bush in a bad light, and that includes the Iraq Survey Group.
Greater Valia
07-01-2007, 01:36
Forgive me if I doubt that Fox, the channel that ran a story about how full-fledged Civil War in Iraq could be a good thing, will run this without making it look like Bush is a fucking demigod.

Wasn't that a commentator on an editorial show?
Allegheny County 2
07-01-2007, 01:37
Wasn't that a commentator on an editorial show?

If it was John Gibson, then yes.
CthulhuFhtagn
07-01-2007, 01:42
Wasn't that a commentator on an editorial show?

Technically, all of their shows are editorials, so yes.
Greater Valia
07-01-2007, 01:46
Technically, all of their shows are editorials, so yes.

Ah, so instead of admitting you made an error you dodge the question by saying all the programming on Fox is editorial.
CthulhuFhtagn
07-01-2007, 01:48
Ah, so instead of admitting you made an error you dodge the question by saying all the programming on Fox is editorial.

All I said was that Fox ran it. And they did. I said that all of Fox's programming is editorial because that's how I knew that it was an editorial.
Allegheny County 2
07-01-2007, 01:51
All I said was that Fox ran it. And they did. I said that all of Fox's programming is editorial because that's how I knew that it was an editorial.

Most everything on Cable news is editorial.
Greater Valia
07-01-2007, 01:52
All I said was that Fox ran it. And they did. I said that all of Fox's programming is editorial because that's how I knew that it was an editorial.

But that is your personal opinion, not fact.
Lacadaemon
07-01-2007, 01:53
Does anyone actually care about anything anymore, or is it all just a big effort to prove that the republicrats are slightly less poopy than the democans?
CthulhuFhtagn
07-01-2007, 01:58
But that is your personal opinion, not fact.

No, it's not my opinion. Fox declared practically everything on their channel as editorials. Don't know why.
Allegheny County 2
07-01-2007, 02:01
No, it's not my opinion. Fox declared practically everything on their channel as editorials. Don't know why.

They have?
CthulhuFhtagn
07-01-2007, 02:01
They have?

Last I checked they did. Maybe they stopped. There was a period that they did so because of a lawsuit or something.
Greater Valia
07-01-2007, 02:01
Does anyone actually care about anything anymore, or is it all just a big effort to prove that the republicrats are slightly less poopy than the democans?

I don't know about anyone else here, but I've written off US politics as a lost cause.
Greater Valia
07-01-2007, 02:02
No, it's not my opinion. Fox declared practically everything on their channel as editorials. Don't know why.

They did? My God! Why didn't I get the memo concerning this!
CthulhuFhtagn
07-01-2007, 02:04
They did? My God! Why didn't I get the memo concerning this!

Probably because the guy who was supposed to send the memo got eaten by a shark.
Allegheny County 2
07-01-2007, 02:10
Last I checked they did. Maybe they stopped. There was a period that they did so because of a lawsuit or something.

Proof please that they have.
Lacadaemon
07-01-2007, 02:11
I don't know about anyone else here, but I've written off US politics as a lost cause.

Moi aussi.
CthulhuFhtagn
07-01-2007, 02:18
Proof please that they have.

Can't find it with a cursory search and too lazy to do more than that. So let's declare the assertion retracted. If I end up finding something that says they have, I'll link it.
Greater Valia
07-01-2007, 02:25
Can't find it with a cursory search and too lazy to do more than that. So let's declare the assertion retracted. If I end up finding something that says they have, I'll link it.

You know why you didn't find anything? It's because they never did such a thing.
CthulhuFhtagn
07-01-2007, 02:27
You know why you didn't find anything? It's because they never did such a thing.

Actually, I did one search, and clicked on one link. I couldn't have found anything either way.
Greater Valia
07-01-2007, 02:30
Actually, I did one search, and clicked on one link. I couldn't have found anything either way.

And why is that? It's because you made it up to cover your ass.
CthulhuFhtagn
07-01-2007, 02:40
And why is that? It's because you made it up to cover your ass.

No, it's because I clicked one link randomly and gave up. I read it somewhere once, but it was years ago and I can't remember where. I was probably wrong. I've admitted that. But I did not make it up.
Allegheny County 2
07-01-2007, 02:43
I'll consider it retracted.
Greater Valia
07-01-2007, 02:43
No, it's because I clicked one link randomly and gave up. I read it somewhere once, but it was years ago and I can't remember where. I was probably wrong. I've admitted that. But I did not make it up.

A general rule of thumb to follow when posting here is to always have a credible source before making accusations. I've fallen into that trap in the past, and have learned my lesson. Yeah you could be telling the truth but since you cant prove it that means jack. Anyway, I'm not going to respond in here anymore since we've hijacked the thread. It was about Bush reading mail without warrants but we're beyond that point now I guess...