NationStates Jolt Archive

Im not sure its a good idea to use the legal system to kill another countries leader...couldnt potentially another nation capture and do the same thing to ours? in the name of legality and good?:confused:

You forget that the president of the US is the hardest person to kidnap in the world.

Officialy, he was captured by the US and handed over to the provisional govt. Officially he was executed by the Iraqi govt.

But it is disturbing that the pistol Saddam was carrying at the time he was captured is presently in Bush's office.

You forget that the president of the US is the hardest person to kidnap in the world.

Kidnap maybe. Kill, no.

Im not sure its a good idea to use the legal system to kill another countries leader...couldnt potentially another nation capture and do the same thing to ours? in the name of legality and good?:confused:

We killed another nation's leader? Sorry but it was the Iraqis that did it and not us. Please try again.

Im not sure its a good idea to use the legal system to kill another countries leader...couldnt potentially another nation capture and do the same thing to ours? in the name of legality and good?:confused:

Hey noob, this story is three years old!
Short answer is yes, the violation of another country's sovereignty is illegal and a terrible precedent to set, but anyone sensible here considers the point made.

Perhaps use the search function and read some threads from back then.

Kidnap maybe. Kill, no.


Hand him a pretzel and watch.

Hand him a pretzel and watch.

So a piece of a pretzel went down the wrong pipe. I dare you to tell me the samething has never happened to you.

You forget that the president of the US is the hardest person to kidnap in the world.

Except of course when Bill Shatner is involved.

https://www.sirindia.com/products/Thumbs/kidnapping-of-president.jpg

You forget that the president of the US is the hardest person to kidnap in the world.

Ninja's could do it.

You forget that the president of the US is the hardest person to kidnap in the world.

All you need are ninjas.

I would argue that Saddam was no longer the Head of State at the time of his capture.

So a piece of a pretzel went down the wrong pipe. I dare you to tell me the samething has never happened to you.

How many of us have fallen off a segway? Not to mention running a bicycle into a cop.

Hand him a pretzel and watch.

Jesus Christ, I am so sick of the pretzel jokes. :headbang: So a 60 year old man (albeit a rather moronic 60 year old man, but that's irrelevant in this case) eats a pretzel and it goes down the wrong pipe. Whooo, how retarded. :rolleyes:

You've choked on stuff before, I've choked on stuff before, Einstein choked on stuff. It's not exclusive to idiots.

We killed another nation's leader? Sorry but it was the Iraqis that did it and not us. Please try again.

Not really. Had the US occupation force not expended hideous amounts of resources to his capture, and rendered the trial little more than a Stalinist show trial, Saddam may have recieved a trail that approached fair.

Were US forces not slowly bleeding to death in Iraq, the trial would have been an impossibility, and, due to their presence, it has been rendered a formality where all dramatis personae are those agreed by the US.

I really must commend the US for its shameless disregard for such niceties as national autonomy, tolerance and legal justice. After all, they hardly underpin the US itself now, do they?

Frankly, you deserve every body bag you fly home.

You forget that the president of the US is the hardest person to kidnap in the world.

Chuck Norris is the only person I know that could do this for real.

How many of us have fallen off a segway? Not to mention running a bicycle into a cop.

And you are telling me that bikes and segways are easy to ride?

Not really. Had the US occupation force not expended hideous amounts of resources to his capture, and rendered the trial little more than a Stalinist show trial, Saddam may have recieved a trail that approached fair.

Oh this is so funny. Especially about the part where you are saying it was a show trial. Excuse me while I go off and die of laughter. Oh wait? You're being serious. Alwell. I do not expect you to know anything about this. Yes we captured him but it was the Iraqis that tipped the Army off to where he was hiding. We HANDED HIM OVER to the Iraqis for trial. He got one and was found guilty and was hanged. All on the up and up. Sorry but take your false statements elsewhere..

Were US forces not slowly bleeding to death in Iraq, the trial would have been an impossibility, and, due to their presence, it has been rendered a formality where all dramatis personae are those agreed by the US.

You are such a card and a child.

I really must commend the US for its shameless disregard for such niceties as national autonomy, tolerance and legal justice. After all, they hardly underpin the US itself now, do they?

:rolleyes:

Frankly, you deserve every body bag you fly home.

I so want to tell you off but by doing so, I'd get banned. The best I can tell u is to grow the hell up.

Ninja's could do it.

Yeah! Ninjas are the Greatest!

A few things though... aren't Ninjas more like assassins rather than kidnappers. And no matter how good one's stealth is, the thermal and motion detectors are most likley all over the place, and an army of snipers equipped with them.

From the popularity of the president so far... It might be possible for it to happen in our country. (very not likley though)

Not exactly the happiest feeling in the world. No matter what party you are in.

And you are telling me that bikes and segways are easy to ride?

Don't know about segways but I learned to ride a bike when I was about 3 so yes I do think it's a pretty easy skill.

You forget that the president of the US is the hardest person to kidnap in the world.
That's because his bodyguards grease him up every morning so he's to slippery too hold onto.
Get close enough to GWB and you'll smell popcorn butter on him.

Don't know about segways but I learned to ride a bike when I was about 3 so yes I do think it's a pretty easy skill.

Does not mean you will not have accidents.

Does not mean you will not have accidents.

Very true. However I believe it's the sheer frequency of Bushs' accidents that make us point and laugh.

I would argue that Saddam was no longer the Head of State at the time of his capture.

Not to be a stickler for details (but I am) .. I don't recall Saddam or anyone in Iraq "surrendering" to the USA at any point since the illegal invasion & occuption of Iraq.

Lets not forget when Saddam was drugged and his capture staged (as was the toppling of his statue) he said and I quote "I am the president of Iraq and I am willing to negotiate"

That sure sounds like he was still the president to me. Or does that mean after 9/11 when Bush and Cheney ran and hid that they no longer held office either? You can't have it both ways.

Does not mean you will not have accidents.

Maybe not, but like I said, how many actually have driven a bike into a beat cop?

Not to be a stickler for details (but I am) .. I don't recall Saddam or anyone in Iraq "surrendering" to the USA at any point since the illegal invasion & occuption of Iraq.

Welp, since Baghdad fell and Saddam Hussein captured, that pretty much means Saddam was no longer in power before he was arraigned, charged, tried and executed.

Lets not forget when Saddam was drugged and his capture staged (as was the toppling of his statue) he said and I quote "I am the president of Iraq and I am willing to negotiate"

*dies of laughter* Staged? Oh brother. *dies of laughter again*

That sure sounds like he was still the president to me. Or does that mean after 9/11 when Bush and Cheney ran and hid that they no longer held office either? You can't have it both ways.

Oh brother. This part of the post is so idiotic I do not know if I should respond to it! What the heck. Cannot compare the two. The entire chain of command for the presidency was wisked away by the Secret Service. The reason for this is to protect them in case they were targeted for assassination. Bush did not hide per se as he was visible for brief periods of time during the period.

Maybe not, but like I said, how many actually have driven a bike into a beat cop?

Good question. I'm sure its happened before but never made the news. The only reason why it did with Bush is because he is a public figure. Keep that in mind before you spout things.

Keep that in mind before you spout things.

Look bub. Half the reason why it's funny is BECAUSE he's a public figure. Public figures have a certain "dignity" level that gets attached to them merely by holding that post.

Besides, the rest of what he does is so unfunny, it hurts.

Good question. I'm sure its happened before but never made the news. The only reason why it did with Bush is because he is a public figure. Keep that in mind before you spout things.

Even with the bike, the segway is specifically designed NOT to fall over. It's funny that Bush, the 'village idiot,' as it were, made it topple so he fell off.

Even with the bike, the segway is specifically designed NOT to fall over. It's funny that Bush, the 'village idiot,' as it were, made it topple so he fell off.

You can have an accident using anything be it on foot or a segway. It does not matter if it is designed not to fall over or not. Things happen. I don't mean to fall down the stairs. I do so anyway. I trip over cracks too even though I have eyes to see them and can avoid them.

I don't mean to fall down the stairs. I do so anyway. I trip over cracks too even though I have eyes to see them and can avoid them.

Related to Gerald Ford then, are you?

As far as I know US and UK didn't get ONU approval to move their forces to Iraq...

And Saddam was "officially" the leader of Iraq as well Castro is "officially" the leader of Cuba... (Or at least until little ago...)

As well, for the trial I want to remind you that new Iraquis government was a government that US helped to get in power, the whole story remind me the italian "referendum" that abrogate monarchy... A "referendum" that now is know was cheated by the "provisory governement" 'cause if Italy has conserved monarchy US wouldn't have send economical help to the country...

Frankly, you deserve every body bag you fly home.

For this thing, I strongly disagree... No one deserve death of their loved ones, Iraq as well as US... And soldier aren't responsible for their superior choices...

So a piece of a pretzel went down the wrong pipe. I dare you to tell me the samething has never happened to you.

I've never choked on a pretzel. Happy now?

Anyway, according to this (http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=21828), Saddam is the "Luckiest Despot in the World". Can't say as I totally agree, what with him being dead and all, but still... food for thought, eh?

Related to Gerald Ford then, are you?

No but according to my late grandmother, I'm related to President Adams.

So a piece of a pretzel went down the wrong pipe. I dare you to tell me the samething has never happened to you.

The only thing I ever choked on was a Flintstones vitamin. When I was six. Because I tried to swallow it whole. And I coughed it up after two seconds.

As far as I know US and UK didn't get ONU approval to move their forces to Iraq...

ONU?

ONU?

My bad, I was speaking about United Nation...

My bad, I was speaking about United Nation...

Ah. Sorry but do not need their approval to launch an invasion of another nation.

Frankly, you deserve every body bag you fly home.

That may be a little harsh, since the average soldiers and junior officers getting killed aren't really the ones to blame for all that's going wrong in Iraq. Still, the whole 'hang Saddam' thing should have been expected to increase disorder, since his allies are getting (even more) pissed off and he seems to have more of them since the 'injustice' of his death. It has really shamed the already unstable Iraqi government. Saying that, Saddam was an evil, inhumane dictator who deserved exactly what he got (or worse, some might say), though there are many as bad or worse than him still out there in the world. Shame America is too two-faced (and by now probably too weak) to take them all by force.

Ah. Sorry but do not need their approval to launch an invasion of another nation.

As long as you belong to the UN, you do. Sorry.

Ah. Sorry but do not need their approval to launch an invasion of another nation.

Ah, that was an invasion? I thought at it as a peace mission...

As long as you belong to the UN, you do. Sorry.

Tell that to the Arab nations that were part of the UN when they invaded Israel in 1948 and a few other times. Tell that to Britain, France, and Israel who invaded Egypt during the Suez Crisis. Tell that to the Indians and the Pakistanis who invaded eachother. Tell that to Tanzania who invaded Uganda. Tell that to Iraq who invaded Iran and Kuwait. Tell that to the USSR who invaded Afghanistan.

Do you see a pattern here? It does not matter if one is a member of the UN or not. One does not need UN permission to invade another country.

Oh and one last example, Ethiopia invading Somalia to keep the extremists from taking over the entire country without UN Permission.

Small moments of clumsiness in no way indicate your ability to lead a country. It's a little pathetic that people insist on harping over those as insults. You have plenty of other, far more applicable ammunition to use. Bringing up the pretzel is just annoying.

There was some sort of treaty about assasinating foreign leaders of power, making it so that they were not valid targets for war. However military officials are still valid targets, so Saddam, the leader of the army, would still be a target. (I myself would argue that a US President, as the Commander in Chief would also be a valid target, but that may be open to debate) the whole thing is a rather moot point however, because I am pretty sure that the United States never signed that treaty, so it does not apply to them. It is also a moot point, because the United States didn't kill him. They captured him and gave him to the Iraqis. People say that it was a sham trial, but I don't see them ever citing parts of the trial that they thought were fishy. More importantly, a sham trial would not necessarilly be a sham on the part of the US. I think that people forget sometimes that (most) Iraqis wanted Saddam dead much, much, much more than the United States. We've had our conflicts, sure, and there is definitely no love lost between our two countries. But the United States doesn't really understand evil, brutalizing, murdering dictators. This makes any emotions involved much much weaker than the Iraqis who had to suffer through him for years. Any tendency to hurry towards a guilty verdict was probably brought on purely by the Iraqis themselves.

As for needing to get permission from the UN. Well, first of all the UN isn't a position to demand really anything. If the invasion had taken place with permission, it would probably have eliminated any possible repercussions. Just because it wasn't sanctioned doesn't mean that repercussions are due. However I believe it means that any countries are open to begin a trial against the United States on the issue if they wish too. I don't know too much about this part of international law though, so I should be wrong there.

There was some sort of treaty about assasinating foreign leaders of power, making it so that they were not valid targets for war. However military officials are still valid targets, so Saddam, the leader of the army, would still be a target. (I myself would argue that a US President, as the Commander in Chief would also be a valid target, but that may be open to debate) the whole thing is a rather moot point however, because I am pretty sure that the United States never signed that treaty, so it does not apply to them.

It was an executive order by the President (forgot which one) that forbids assassinating foreign heads of state.

It is also a moot point, because the United States didn't kill him. They captured him and gave him to the Iraqis.

Hear Hear.

Saddam was tried, convicted, and executed by the Iraqis. He was captured by the Americans, true, but just because he was captured by Americans does not mean that the Americans were responsible for convicting him.

The equivalent with Bush would be a foreign power invading the US (justified or not is irrelevant), Bush going into hiding, caught by said foreign power's troops, then handed over to an American court, where Bush is tried for treason and war crimes, convicted (again, whether he did this in reality is irrelevant) and executed by Americans.

The way to tell whether the trial was a sham would be how soon after the conviction Bush is executed. If it is less than 12 months, the trial was a sham - appeals take months, years even.

Saddam was tried, convicted, and executed by the Iraqis. He was captured by the Americans, true, but just because he was captured by Americans does not mean that the Americans were responsible for convicting him.

The equivalent with Bush would be a foreign power invading the US (justified or not is irrelevant), Bush going into hiding, caught by said foreign power's troops, then handed over to an American court, where Bush is tried for treason and war crimes, convicted (again, whether he did this in reality is irrelevant) and executed by Americans.

The way to tell whether the trial was a sham would be how soon after the conviction Bush is executed. If it is less than 12 months, the trial was a sham - appeals take months, years even.

That depends on what the evidence is. If it is so overwhelming, then it will take less time. Also, it depends what is appealed and on what basis it was appealed on.

We killed another nation's leader? Sorry but it was the Iraqis that did it and not us. Please try again.


Thats because the attempt to kill Saddam at the outset of hostilities failed.

Thats because the attempt to kill Saddam at the outset of hostilities failed.

And if he was wearing a military uniform at the time, it would be legal to do so. Do not know if he was or not however.

but look at it this way. now saddamn ? is a martyr an dhis people look up to him. And pretty soon his people will blow up or cuase long trem distruction to america. yay disturction!!!:D

Tell that to Britain, France, and Israel who invaded Egypt during the Suez Crisis. .


Had to withdraw under threat of sanctions.


Tell that to the Indians and the Pakistanis who invaded eachother..

Arms embargo, sanctions.


Tell that to Iraq who invaded Iran and Kuwait. ..

Well, when it was Iran there was a more liberal approach to Iraq by the "leader of the free world". We know what happened the second time - via the UN, IMO.

Had to withdraw under threat of sanctions.

They still did it without UN approval.

Arms embargo, sanctions.

Likewise.

Well, when it was Iran there was a more liberal approach to Iraq by the "leader of the free world". We know what happened the second time - via the UN, IMO.

Iraq still did it without UN authorization so there is precedent for it being done regardless of whatever point you are trying to make.

They still did it without UN approval.



Likewise.



Iraq still did it without UN authorization so there is precedent for it being done regardless of whatever point you are trying to make.

The fact is that its perfectly legal to bring sanctions against countries that Invade illegally ie without UN approval, or the nessecary prerequisites (clear threat etc). As there was no threat to the US via Iraq its only its veto power which renders attempting sanctions pointless.

The fact is that its perfectly legal to bring sanctions against countries that Invade illegally ie without UN approval, or the nessecary prerequisites (clear threat etc).

Indeed. Am not disputing that. I'm just saying that invasion without UN approval is the norm and not the exception.

As there was no threat to the US via Iraq its only its veto power which renders attempting sanctions pointless.

Through the UN indeed, you are right. But individual countries can place sanctions if they really wanted too.

And you are telling me that bikes and segways are easy to ride?

Are you saying riding a bike is NOT easy?
The stupidest thing about a Segway is getting on one in the first place.

but look at it this way. now saddamn ? is a martyr an dhis people look up to him. And pretty soon his people will blow up or cuase long trem distruction to america. yay disturction!!!:D

The majority of Iraq hate his guts, will always hate his guts, and are very very glad--not to mention relieved--that he has been killed. Yes, he may become a martyr to the portion of the country which supports him, and he may become a martyr to groups in other countries because he fought against the United States, but it's not like those people don't already hate the US.

And if he was wearing a military uniform at the time, it would be legal to do so. Do not know if he was or not however.

I was actually following you for a while there. I was expecting you to draw some distinction between an elected C-in-Chief and a dictator, as regards them being legitimate military targets.

Then you go and say this? It's OK if he's wearing his uniform, but not if he's in pyjamas??

The majority of Iraq hate his guts, will always hate his guts, and are very very glad--not to mention relieved--that he has been killed. Yes, he may become a martyr to the portion of the country which supports him, and he may become a martyr to groups in other countries because he fought against the United States, but it's not like those people don't already hate the US.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=11787

Im not sure its a good idea to use the legal system to kill another countries leader...couldnt potentially another nation capture and do the same thing to ours? in the name of legality and good?:confused:

We didn't kill Saddam.

The people he ruthless tyranized for decades did.

Of their own freewill. They could have set him free, giving him free whatever for the rest of his life, and instead they chose to hang him.

Are you saying riding a bike is NOT easy?
The stupidest thing about a Segway is getting on one in the first place.


It's easy.

I ride one as a security guard.

EASY to learn and fairly fast.

We use them to check buildings VERY quickly. Drive them in the lobby, elevator, then through the building. Really sweet when your head is about a foot below the ceiling and you are screaming through the building with only the light from your segway at 15 mph.