NationStates Jolt Archive

I wanted to post this in the SCOTUS thread, but decided not to hijack it.

Anyways, what is the big deal about school prayer? I mean why are christians hav their panties in a bunch about it? Seriously, Why the hell can't kids pray BEFORE they come to school? or AFTER they leave?

I wanted to post this in the SCOTUS thread, but decided not to hijack it.

Anyways, what is the big deal about school prayer? I mean why are christians hav their panties in a bunch about it? Seriously, Why the hell can't kids pray BEFORE they come to school? or AFTER they leave?

Don't be a prayer-hater, dude. Don't hate the prayer, hate the game.

Because then the non-religious kids won't be exposed to religion and grow up to be miscreants who haven't see the light.

I wanted to post this in the SCOTUS thread, but decided not to hijack it.

Anyways, what is the big deal about school prayer? I mean why are christians hav their panties in a bunch about it? Seriously, Why the hell can't kids pray BEFORE they come to school? or AFTER they leave?

No idea... there's no such thing at German schools as school prayer.
But every kid can of course silently pray wherever he or she wants to.

Don't be a prayer-hater, dude. Don't hate the prayer, hate the game.

Aight dawg, I mus bee drankin that haterade again.

:rolleyes:

I wanted to post this in the SCOTUS thread, but decided not to hijack it.

Anyways, what is the big deal about school prayer? I mean why are christians hav their panties in a bunch about it? Seriously, Why the hell can't kids pray BEFORE they come to school? or AFTER they leave?

Because it's ludicrous that all forms of prayer must be banned from school grounds. It makes sense that mandated prayer not be allowed, but it does not make sense that students may not engage in it privately (and this banning of private prayer has occurred in many a school district).

Betcha this tolerance for school prayer won't apply to the kid breaking out a carpet and kneeling towards Mecca or the local Pagans.

Because it's ludicrous that all forms of prayer must be banned from school grounds. It makes sense that mandated prayer not be allowed, but it does not make sense that students may not engage in it privately (and this banning of private prayer has occurred in many a school district).

Why should we even be exposed to it? Religion, like prayer, is a private affair and best kept private. If the religious right can complain about homosexuals showing PDAs, then we atheists can bitch about being exposed to the traumatising horror that is prayer!

I'm a Christian. I'd hate for my school to enforce prayer upon those who don't want it, it's wrong. Anyway my school seems to be taking more of a Christian slant. But it's wrong to force your beliefs upon other people, and I pray quietly in my own time.

Because it's ludicrous that all forms of prayer must be banned from school grounds. It makes sense that mandated prayer not be allowed, but it does not make sense that students may not engage in it privately (and this banning of private prayer has occurred in many a school district).

No it hasn't. That's clearly unconstitutional, so nobody would ever try that, or if they did they'd get their asses kicked in court.

Because it's ludicrous that all forms of prayer must be banned from school grounds. It makes sense that mandated prayer not be allowed, but it does not make sense that students may not engage in it privately (and this banning of private prayer has occurred in many a school district).

Cite that.

Because the issue is, and always has been, lead prayer. You can't indoctrinate, that's it.

Betcha this tolerance for school prayer won't apply to the kid breaking out a carpet and kneeling towards Mecca or the local Pagans.

Or Buddhist mediation, for that matter.

Because it's ludicrous that all forms of prayer must be banned from school grounds.
Well, they aren't. So the point is moot.

Because it's ludicrous that all forms of prayer must be banned from school grounds. It makes sense that mandated prayer not be allowed, but it does not make sense that students may not engage in it privately (and this banning of private prayer has occurred in many a school district).

...Seriously?
They banned ALL forms of prayer, even if it's quietly to yourself?
Why do I find that hard to believe?

Aight dawg, I mus bee drankin that haterade again.

:rolleyes:

Tru dat. Fo' shizzle, dawg.

I wanted to post this in the SCOTUS thread, but decided not to hijack it.

Anyways, what is the big deal about school prayer? I mean why are christians hav their panties in a bunch about it? Seriously, Why the hell can't kids pray BEFORE they come to school? or AFTER they leave?

Weren't you the guy who posted about how your pastor lied to you and claimed that the school was banning prayer and how you were pissed off at the school?

Betcha this tolerance for school prayer won't apply to the kid breaking out a carpet and kneeling towards Mecca or the local Pagans.
Imagine the pain in the ass the Rastafarians would have to go through doing their thing at school...

Because it's ludicrous that all forms of prayer must be banned from school grounds. It makes sense that mandated prayer not be allowed, but it does not make sense that students may not engage in it privately (and this banning of private prayer has occurred in many a school district).

When in school, besides recess, does a kid actually have time to pray in, shouldn't he or she be focused on school work instead?

Imagine the pain in the ass the Rastafarians would have to go through doing their thing at school...

"What do you mean no smoking? This is prayer, biyotch!!"

...Seriously?
They banned ALL forms of prayer, even if it's quietly to yourself?
Why do I find that hard to believe?

Because it might make you actually sympathize with the evil guys in cloaks known as the *DUM DUM DUM* "religious right."

Mmm, I have no problem with prayer in schools unless its the teacher that breaks out passages from the Bible or the principal starts out the school day with a prayer on the intercom.

My school has a room designated for Muslims students to pray during lunch.

i dont know what the big deal is. im 49 and the ban on school sponsored prayer happened before i entered school. the vast majority of people with kids in elementary school now never had prayer in school (only an insane person would suggest mandating prayer for middle and highschool students).

people are harking back to a time in the 50s (and earlier) that they never lived through.

When in school, besides recess, does a kid actually have time to pray in, shouldn't he or she be focused on school work instead?

If prayer is distracting from school work, fine. But during break times and such, it's ridiculous to ban it. Surely that's reasonable to you, isn't it?

I think they should just force the kids to pray according to every different religion so nobody is discriminated against. One day a Christian prayer, the next day they pray toward mecca, the next day they drink rum and sacrifice a chicken to Ogun, the voodoo loa of war, and so on and so forth.

Weren't you the guy who posted about how your pastor lied to you and claimed that the school was banning prayer and how you were pissed off at the school?

No, he said that they wanted us to quit using the area we where using for worship time, an area we actually pay for to use every sunday, albeit on school grounds. However, thats not to say that other people can't use that area anytime they want to, the school doesn't care either way.

Mmm, I have no problem with prayer in schools unless its the teacher that breaks out passages from the Bible or the principal starts out the school day with a prayer on the intercom.

My school has a room designated for Muslims students to pray during lunch.

Sorry, but it must be said: if that was a room for Christian students to pray in, the ACLU would be all over your school's shit.

I go to a Catholic school and we pray all the time. It's good fun. Some people complain about it, but if they don't want to pray then they shouldnt be at a Catholic school. As for praying in secular schools, well, they probably shouldn't have to be subjected to it but come on... Is it really such a big deal?

Sorry, but it must be said: if that was a room for Christian students to pray in, the ACLU would be all over your school's shit.

Bullshit.

...Seriously?
They banned ALL forms of prayer, even if it's quietly to yourself?
Why do I find that hard to believe?

How would they even enforce that? Mind reading teachers?

No one has tried to keep a student from praying silently before a test or saying grace at lunch or any such thing - at least not that I have seen. If they have, there is something wrong with them.

Anyways, what is the big deal about school prayer? I mean why are christians hav their panties in a bunch about it? Seriously, Why the hell can't kids pray BEFORE they come to school? or AFTER they leave?
As a Christian surely you can appreciate that sometimes a student might want to pray in a private, quiet and non-disruptive manner?

Mandatory group prayer is wrong, but to ban individual prayer, you might as well ban talking.

Meh, my school had a religiousy section and a prayer every morning in assembly before doing announcements, and if you didn't want to do it you didn't have to come in to assembly until after the religious bit was over. Quite a few people sat it out, and the school didn't care if you went to it or not.

I went to most of them, and it didn't do me any harm.

Because it might make you actually sympathize with the evil guys in cloaks known as the *DUM DUM DUM* "religious right."

Nooo...because we don't believe it. Cite it.

Sorry, but it must be said: if that was a room for Christian students to pray in, the ACLU would be all over your school's shit.

Good 'ol walking eagle (he's so full of crap, he can't fly) returns to spread his bile.

Betcha this tolerance for school prayer won't apply to the kid breaking out a carpet and kneeling towards Mecca or the local Pagans.
Sorry, but it must be said: if that was a room for Christian students to pray in, the ACLU would be all over your school's shit.
I'm getting tired of unsubstantiated predictions.

Sorry, but it must be said: if that was a room for Christian students to pray in, the ACLU would be all over your school's shit.

If the room is specifically designated as only for Muslim students, and students of other faiths cannot use it for prayer, there is already a problem - and I am quite certain that the ACLU would take the case if someone were to complain.

(and this banning of private prayer has occurred in many a school district).

Could we see a source for this, please?

If the room is specifically designated as only for Muslim students, and students of other faiths cannot use it for prayer, there is already a problem - and I am quite certain that the ACLU would take the case if someone were to complain.

Doubt it, considering that any advancement of a religious minority is high on the list of the ACLU's priorities.

you can pray in school, the teachers can't force you to.

Could we see a source for this, please?

I can tell you that in my school district, and school districts where students I know attend, there have been cases where a student has attempted to engage in prayer during free time in class and beent told hush up (and thus return to the gossip pools).

Doubt it, considering that any advancement of a religious minority is high on the list of the ACLU's priorities.

Here's what you do-you go find a source for all of this, a news story from a reputable or at the very least verifiable source that has a story or report of these claims, you copy and paste the url into a post with url tags around them, maybe even quote the pertinent part in your post, and that backs up what otherwise sounds like things fresh-from-your-ass. It's called 'citing.' Or 'sourcing.' That thing people keep asking you to do.

The schools I went to actually organized hymns and prayer* (it wasn't compulsory, but it was opt-out). That regular exposure to Christianity helped me on my way to atheism.

* EDIT: I think its actually required by law in England.

I can tell you that in my school district, and school districts where students I know attend, there have been cases where a student has attempted to engage in prayer during free time in class and beent told hush up (and thus return to the gossip pools).

So, in short, you have no basis whatsoever for your assertion that many school districts have banned private prayer, but can provide us with unsubstantiated anecdotes suggesting that making noise in class sometimes causes teachers to ask one to be quieter. Good to know.

Doubt it, considering that any advancement of a religious minority is high on the list of the ACLU's priorities.

Wrong. The ACLU has supported Christians - a religious majority in this country - in many cases. The ACLU's priority in religious cases is to ensure that the 1st Amendment is upheld, not to support any particular religion. A prayer room that can only be used by Muslims, without similar provisions made for those of other religions, is just as clearly in violation of the 1st Amendment as it would be if the room were only for Christians.

The schools I went to actually organized hymns and prayer* (it wasn't compulsory, but it was opt-out). That regular exposure to Christianity helped me on my way to atheism.

* EDIT: I think its actually required by law in England.

O/T: Does your location intentionally list N. Ireland twice?

Here's what you do-you go find a source for all of this, a news story from a reputable or at the very least verifiable source that has a story or report of these claims, you copy and paste the url into a post with url tags around them, maybe even quote the pertinent part in your post, and that backs up what otherwise sounds like things fresh-from-your-ass. It's called 'citing.' Or 'sourcing.' That thing people keep asking you to do.

I love how people are so skeptical of the fact that the suppresion of religious freedom involving Christians might occur, but are so ready to believe that an egregious violation of the separation of church and state has occurred.

Sorry, but it must be said: if that was a room for Christian students to pray in, the ACLU would be all over your school's shit.

christians arent mandated to pray in the middle of the day

even if it's quietly to yourself?



You'd think that the Christian right would know what their bible says about prayer in public:

"When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, who love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on street corners so that others may see them. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward.
6
But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.

Does that incourage Christians to pray at school in front of everyone? Nope, rather at home, alone, in privacy.

Prayer, and God for that matter, has no place in a school. Just like facts have no place in organised religion.

I love how people are so skeptical of the fact that the suppresion of religious freedom involving Christians might occur, but are so ready to believe that an egregious violation of the separation of church and state has occurred.

I love how you've been asked FOUR TIMES for a source of any kind, and continue to try to build more strawmen.

So, in short, you have no basis whatsoever for your assertion that many school districts have banned private prayer, but can provide us with unsubstantiated anecdotes suggesting that making noise in class sometimes causes teachers to ask one to be quieter. Good to know.

That's not what I said at all, but reading things for what they expressly say has never been high on the reading comprehension traits of your average bra-burning ACLU defender, now has it? I said during free time and never made any mentioned about the students in question being any louder than the people gossiping and throwing paper airplanes next to them. Idiot.

I love how people are so skeptical of the fact that the suppresion of religious freedom involving Christians might occur, but are so ready to believe that an egregious violation of the separation of church and state has occurred.

If you are having trouble finding these stories, there is this thing called "Google." You go to Google.com and then type in what you are searching for, they even allow you to search 'news,' then you find these stories that support what otherwise sounds like something 'fresh-from-your-ass' and then you can post those links here to support them.

I love how people are so skeptical of the fact that the suppresion of religious freedom involving Christians might occur, but are so ready to believe that an egregious violation of the separation of church and state has occurred.

85% or more of the U.S. is Christian. So yeah, the chances of Christians being suppressed or oppressed really aren't that good.

Just a question: so what if some school districts have overstepped their boundaries? Why do so many people have a "public schools can do no wrong" mentality?

85% or more of the U.S. is Christian. So yeah, the chances of Christians being suppressed or oppressed really aren't that good.

I really doubt 85% are really christian, more like the affiliate themselves to the ideas of christianity.

That's not what I said at all, but reading things for what they expressly say has never been high on the reading comprehension traits of your average bra-burning ACLU defender, now has it? I said during free time and never made any mentioned about the students in question being any louder than the people gossiping and throwing paper airplanes next to them. Idiot.

If they're not being any louder than any else, was the teacher walking up and leaning down to listen to what they're saying or something? I can't imagine if I was subbing somewhere and was ignoring the classroom (which is what you're saying these teachers are doing more or less) and saw someone sitting quietly, I wouldn't stand up and yell

"JOHNSON! CUT OUT THAT QUIET SELF-REFLECTION BULLSHIT AND GO GOSSIP LOUDLY!"

O/T: Does your location intentionally list N. Ireland twice?

I think he's trying to lead you to working out that he lives in England through process of elimination....he lives in a country within a country, and the country also includes the other named countries. If you know what I mean.

Just a question: so what if some school districts have overstepped their boundaries? Why do so many people have a "public schools can do no wrong" mentality?

Because when public schools do things that aren't even half-offensive or stupid people flip out and sue them, so teachers actively walking around telling kids to stop praying to themselves would at LEAST get a LITTLE press, especially since people who are crazy for public prayer would consider the publicity a good way to spread the Word.

If the room is specifically designated as only for Muslim students, and students of other faiths cannot use it for prayer, there is already a problem - and I am quite certain that the ACLU would take the case if someone were to complain.
Well the room serves as a classroom, but the teacher (who happens to be an Atheist) was nice enough to leave it open to Muslim students who wanted a place to pray during lunch. I'm sure if Christian students approached a teacher for an equivalent, they'd get one.

christians arent mandated to pray in the middle of the day

Irrelevant. If a space for prayer and meditation is to be provided, it cannot be provided solely to members of one religion. That is establishment of religion, in exactly the same way that a Christian prayer room would be. Muslim students may end up using it more, but a person of another faith who wants a private place to pray before a test must be equally accomodated.


You'd think that the Christian right would know what their bible says about prayer in public:

Does that incourage Christians to pray at school in front of everyone? Nope, rather at home, alone, in privacy.

You are being entirely too literal. The point is that a person is not supposed to make a big deal out of prayer - they are not supposed to do it to be seen. A student who prays silently to herself is being no more public than a student who prays at home.

If they're not being any louder than any else, was the teacher walking up and leaning down to listen to what they're saying or something? I can't imagine if I was subbing somewhere and was ignoring the classroom (which is what you're saying these teachers are doing more or less) and saw someone sitting quietly, I wouldn't stand up and yell

"JOHNSON! CUT OUT THAT QUIET SELF-REFLECTION BULLSHIT AND GO GOSSIP LOUDLY!"

Once again, public schools can do no wrong. The only kind of religious freedom violations that ever occur to the religious majority involve their dominance. I'm relaying instances I know from first-hand...I don't have sources for them. Sorry. I didn't realize so many people worshipped the public schools in lieu of a diety, and that their faith in America rests on the fact that school policies are always perfect except where a religious minority is suppressed.

I really doubt 85% are really christian, more like the affiliate themselves to the ideas of christianity.

Which means that they are Christians. All that is needed is a belief that Jesus is the Messiah.

Just a question: so what if some school districts have overstepped their boundaries? Why do so many people have a "public schools can do no wrong" mentality?

When these things happen these things called 'newspapers' and 'news sources' report on them. These reports, or 'stories' are most often put on the websites of these news sources for people to look up and then link when they make claims that otherwise sound like something fresh-from-your-ass so that the person making the FFYA claim can support what they are saying. Again, this is called 'citing' or 'sourcing,' requests I am sure by now you've seen.

Once again, public schools can do no wrong. The only kind of religious freedom violations that ever occur to the religious majority involve their dominance. I'm relaying instances I know from first-hand...I don't have sources for them. Sorry. I didn't realize so many people worshipped the public schools in lieu of a diety, and that their faith in America rests on the fact that school policies are always perfect except where a religious minority is suppressed.

Dude, I'm a Christian and I can tell you we're not at all oppressed. Perhaps the school districts in your area are over-zealous, that's totally possible. However, having grown up in the South I can tell you that a teacher telling someone to stop praying would get their ass kicked in a court somewhere.

That's not what I said at all, but reading things for what they expressly say has never been high on the reading comprehension traits of your average bra-burning ACLU defender, now has it? I said during free time and never made any mentioned about the students in question being any louder than the people gossiping and throwing paper airplanes next to them. Idiot.

How would they know they were praying anyway? For all the teacher knows the kid could have some kind of mental condition where they talk to themselves. I call bullshit.

Dude, I'm a Christian and I can tell you we're not at all oppressed. Perhaps the school districts in your area are over-zealous, that's totally possible. However, having grown up in the South I can tell you that a teacher telling someone to stop praying would get their ass kicked in a court somewhere.

And do you think any of that is a good thing?

How would they know they were praying anyway? For all the teacher knows the kid could have some kind of mental condition where they talk to themselves. I call bullshit.

Shhh! The ebil ACLU will sue you for oppressing his minority beliefs!

Which means that they are Christians. All that is needed is a belief that Jesus is the Messiah.

You just put me in the same category as Falthwell and Robertson..I hate you:p

O/T: Does your location intentionally list N. Ireland twice?
One mention is part of the name "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK)"

The other is simply naming the other constituent countries - just providing a little geographical knowledge to whoever can be bothered to read it.

I think he's trying to lead you to working out that he lives in England through process of elimination....he lives in a country within a country, and the country also includes the other named countries. If you know what I mean.

Well, the first word after "Location:" is England, so the process of elimination would be somewhat superfluous.

And do you think any of that is a good thing?

Yes, I think me being a Christian is a good thing.
Yes, I think growing up in the South is a good thing.
No, I don't think someone getting sued for halting certain types of prayer would be good.

I should have been more clear: A teacher who tried to stop someone from quietly praying to themselves would likely get sued.

I think mandated public prayer is a bad thing, because it just is. I thought a minute-long moment of silence was the perfect compromise.

You just put me in the same category as Falthwell and Robertson..I hate you:p
but took us out of the category with the JW's and LDS's ;)

You are being entirely too literal. The point is that a person is not supposed to make a big deal out of prayer - they are not supposed to do it to be seen. A student who prays silently to herself is being no more public than a student who prays at home.

How is it too literal? I am sure Jesus meant the whole "I'm saviour, love your neighbor, yadda yadda" In a not so literal way.:rolleyes:

You just put me in the same category as Falthwell and Robertson..I hate you:p

Nah, they don't take any responsibility for their errors.

"OMG the devil made me do it!"

I think he's trying to lead you to working out that he lives in England through process of elimination....he lives in a country within a country, and the country also includes the other named countries. If you know what I mean.

Kinda. I clicked to what he was meaning about 11seconds after I posted it but couldn't be bothered deleting the comment, heh.

That's not what I said at all, but reading things for what they expressly say has never been high on the reading comprehension traits of your average bra-burning ACLU defender, now has it? I said during free time and never made any mentioned about the students in question being any louder than the people gossiping and throwing paper airplanes next to them. Idiot.

You're funny.

First of all, your original post, the one we've all asked for sources on, stated that many school districts have banned private prayer. In response to my request for a source for that statement, you gave a personal anecdote about specific teachers asking students to be quiet, which manifestly has nothing to do with school districts banning private prayer. If this was not meant to be an admission that you have no source for your statement that many school ditricts have banned private prayer, then, by all means, show us a source for that statement.

Secondly, would you like to provide evidence that none of the teachers in question have ever asked gossiping students to be quieter? The fact that praying students have been asked to be quiet is in no way evidence of any bias against praying students unless you can demonstrate that only praying students have been asked to be quieter, and/or that they are asked to be quieter specifically because of the act of praying, rather than their volume, timing, or what they are saying. And, of course, even if you were to demonstrate that teachers exist who are biased against religious students, you still wouldn't have supported your initial assertion in any way, as I already mentioned. So, please, offer us some real evidence. Show us real sources. Until then, don't expect people to take your arguments seriously.

Just a question: so what if some school districts have overstepped their boundaries? Why do so many people have a "public schools can do no wrong" mentality?

One need not look any further than the front page of NS general to find criticism of the public school system ...

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=513393

Well, the first word after "Location:" is England, so the process of elimination would be somewhat superfluous.

Yea, but who goes for the easy way?

Shhh! The ebil ACLU will sue you for oppressing his minority beliefs!

I don't even know what the ACLU is lol.
Alas, they do seem evil.

*hids*

but took us out of the category with the JW's and LDS's ;)


Well, that makes the wound a little bit better :)

One mention is part of the name "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK)"

The other is simply naming the other constituent countries - just providing a little geographical knowledge to whoever can be bothered to read it.

Yeah my bad I figured it out pretty quickly after I had posted my question. Nought wrong with geographical knowledge.

I don't even know what the ACLU is lol.
Alas, they do seem evil.

*hids*

They eat babies, and hate straight people, not to mention they support terrorists and communists.:rolleyes:

I don't even know what the ACLU is lol.
Alas, they do seem evil.

*hids*

American Civil Liberties Union

They provide free legal advice and representation when your civil liberties have been trampled by organizations and such.

The Right-Side Spin: THE ACLU NEVER HELPS CHRISTIANS AND HATES AMERICA LOLOLOLOL

The Left-Side Spin: THE ACLU CAN'T DO ANY WRONG LOLOLOLOL

The Facts: The ACLU has equally represented anyone who has come to them, from atheists to Christians to Nazis.

They eat babies, and hate straight people, not to mention they support terrorists and communists.:rolleyes:

Ohk. So not evil at all? Phew. I feel much better now :fluffle:

If they're not being any louder than any else, was the teacher walking up and leaning down to listen to what they're saying or something? I can't imagine if I was subbing somewhere and was ignoring the classroom (which is what you're saying these teachers are doing more or less) and saw someone sitting quietly, I wouldn't stand up and yell

"JOHNSON! CUT OUT THAT QUIET SELF-REFLECTION BULLSHIT AND GO GOSSIP LOUDLY!"

:p

My old school had a specific prayer time in assembly, and in lower school (year 7-9) a hymn every morning. Some teachers would actually say a prayer, others would say, 'Please pause for a quiet moment of reflection'. Many of them stressed that they encouraged people to prayer/reflect however they wanted, even if the emphasis was almost always a Christian one. That said, I opposed the practice because it was unnecessarily emphasising a specific time for group prayer/worship, when, as others have said, prayer should be a private thing and not forced onto those who don't follow those beliefs. The school also granted the Muslim Society a special room during lunch time.

They eat babies, and hate straight people, not to mention they support terrorists and communists.:rolleyes:

The ACLU molestered me ... :*(

I love how people are so skeptical of the fact that the suppresion of religious freedom involving Christians might occur, but are so ready to believe that an egregious violation of the separation of church and state has occurred.

Maybe if so many "christian" groups hadn't been busted exaggerating these supposed violations of their freedoms, the rest of us wouldn't be suspicious.

The ACLU molestered me ... :*(

No, that was me. Duh. :)

:p

My old school had a specific prayer time in assembly, and in lower school (year 7-9) a hymn every morning. Some teachers would actually say a prayer, others would say, 'Please pause for a quiet moment of reflection'. Many of them stressed that they encouraged people to prayer/reflect however they wanted, even if the emphasis was almost always a Christian one. That said, I opposed the practice because it was unnecessarily emphasising a specific time for group prayer/worship, when, as others have said, prayer should be a private thing and not forced onto those who don't follow those beliefs. The school also granted the Muslim Society a special room during lunch time.

I think the moment of silence is the best thing in general. Quiet reflection, I feel, is in no way offensive to anyone. Of course, if the majority of people are Christians then it' going to fell that way, but it would feel different in a school of people of largely another religion.

Maybe if so many "christian" groups hadn't been busted exaggerating these supposed violations of their freedoms, the rest of us wouldn't be suspicious.

Tru dat.

I think the moment of silence is the best thing in general. Quiet reflection, I feel, is in no way offensive to anyone. Of course, if the majority of people are Christians then it' going to fell that way, but it would feel different in a school of people of largely another religion.

Why does anyone need to have a time of reflection? Its school, you go to learn, not reflect on your life. When you get home from school you can reflect all you want.

Yes, I think me being a Christian is a good thing.
Yes, I think growing up in the South is a good thing.
No, I don't think someone getting sued for halting certain types of prayer would be good.

I should have been more clear: A teacher who tried to stop someone from quietly praying to themselves would likely get sued.

I think mandated public prayer is a bad thing, because it just is. I thought a minute-long moment of silence was the perfect compromise.

I cannot see how one minute would satisfy anyone. The religous right would demand more time (and get it for the Christians) and those not so inclined would have to waste a minute a day in silence while others muttered praise to their 'God'. Schools should be completely secularised and any who object so strongly to their children recieving an impartial education should home-school their own.

How is it too literal? I am sure Jesus meant the whole "I'm saviour, love your neighbor, yadda yadda" In a not so literal way.:rolleyes:

Because you aren't looking at it in context and in the spirit of what is being expressed. I highly doubt that Jesus' intention was to convey the idea, "Don't pray when you need to, even if you happen to be out in public." He related it specifically to those who would rend their clothes and fast and pray loudly in the street - doing it for the public spectacle, rather than anything spiritual - trying to impress others with their piety. He says that this is not true piety, that true piety needs no such public spectacle.

Of course, praying quietly to oneself when one is nervous about a test isn't a public spectacle. It is not meant to impress others, or even to be noticed by others. It is a private expression of one's relationship with God.

You miss the entire point of prayer if you think it must be scheduled around times when you can lock yourself in a little room at home.


If I told you, "Don't tend to your wounds outside to try and get sympathy. Do it at home in your bathroom, where you have privacy" would that mean that, if you happened to be in a public place and needed to change a bandage, you shouldn't do it? No, of course not. It would simply mean that you shouldn't do it to try and get the attention of others. Given the choice, you should do it in privacy. However, if you have a need to attend to it now, you should do so.

-snip-.


You know, I was being silly about the whole literal thing. But nice explanation anyways :D. I know some things are literal, and others not so much, I was just throwing that verse out there for the heck of it :p

Why does anyone need to have a time of reflection? Its school, you go to learn, not reflect on your life. When you get home from school you can reflect all you want.

And all schooling should be down without any kind of internal reflection? Maybe a student would like a little bit of time to think about the tests he might have that day, or his presentation, or the report he has to read outloud. And, honestly, is losing one minute of time during a whole day going to shatter the curriculum?

I cannot see how one minute would satisfy anyone. The religous right would demand more time (and get it for the Christians) and those not so inclined would have to waste a minute a day in silence while others muttered praise to their 'God'. Schools should be completely secularised and any who object so strongly to their children recieving an impartial education should home-school their own.

Waste a minute? If someone chooses not to take advantage of a very brief amount of time, that's their prerogative. As I mentioned above, there's a whole heap of things you can do with a minute. In the high school I went to, which was very much Christian majority, the minute of silence was more than enough and no one ever bitched about it.

And all schooling should be down without any kind of internal reflection? Maybe a student would like a little bit of time to think about the tests he might have that day, or his presentation, or the report he has to read outloud. And, honestly, is losing one minute of time during a whole day going to shatter the curriculum?



Its a waste of money.

and I can explain.

As it was at my school, the state paid the school X ammount of money for the ammount of time for each student being there. Thats why my school cracked down on tardies and truants so much. Anyways, there was 1,500 kids at my HS, so thats 1500 kids being there an extra minute, of which the state has to pay money for each and every student there for that extra time. Now mulitply that by every day, and then by every school in the state and you have yourself a mess.

Its a waste of money.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Maybe we should cut the time between classes to 2 minutes, just enough time for everyone to rush to their next class, eh?

I think the moment of silence is the best thing in general. Quiet reflection, I feel, is in no way offensive to anyone. Of course, if the majority of people are Christians then it' going to fell that way, but it would feel different in a school of people of largely another religion.I would've feel, at the very least, uncomfortable if we would have had these moments of silence. The religious overtones are pretty obvious, to me atleast.

Waste a minute? If someone chooses not to take advantage of a very brief amount of time, that's their prerogative. As I mentioned above, there's a whole heap of things you can do with a minute. In the high school I went to, which was very much Christian majority, the minute of silence was more than enough and no one ever bitched about it.

Well aside from the majority who wasted that minute praying you might find that a minute is an incredibly inconvinient period of time to fill without making any sort of noise, unless of course those of a different spiritual persuasion are allowed to simply continue with their education (but what are the chances of that). Just for the record, I cannot fathom how a state school should allow such a massive compromisation on intelligent education. Seriously, 30 seconds a week, at an Anglican school, maybe, but really.

Dorstfeld
This message has been deleted by Dorstfeld. Reason: ack...wrong thread.

I hate when that happens.

I hate when that happens.

Gets worse when you don't notice it straight away.

Freakin' forums went all bat-shit crazy on me!

I would've feel, at the very least, uncomfortable if we would have had these moments of silence. The religious overtones are pretty obvious, to me atleast.

Well, of course it's not meant to make anyone feel uncomfortable. Of course, having grown up in a place where they engage every opportunity to pray in public as loudly as possible, a moment of silence feels like a very nice compromise to me, personally. However, the moment of silence was called a moment of private reflection, which I honestly don't think has anything to do with religion per se, but again, it was a nice change from being shrieked at.

Well aside from the majority who wasted that minute praying you might find that a minute is an incredibly inconvinient period of time to fill without making any sort of noise, unless of course those of a different spiritual persuasion are allowed to simply continue with their education (but what are the chances of that). Just for the record, I cannot fathom how a state school should allow such a massive compromisation on intelligent education. Seriously, 30 seconds a week, at an Anglican school, maybe, but really.

I can't think of any reasons why forcing some people to be quiet for a whole minute is unreasonable. You can expect prayers at private functions to be much longer than that, and you have to be quiet when other people are talking to begin with, a minute isn't much of a stretch.

It's your opinion that the time spent praying is a waste, no matter what denomination.

There's no denomination on a moment of silence, so I don't see why kids of different persuasions are being forced into a Christian moment of silence. It'd be like arguing that, if I was going to a school in a Buddhist majority, the moment of quiet reflection would force me into a Buddhist mindset.

There is such a compromise on the state schools.

Its a waste of money.

and I can explain.

As it was at my school, the state paid the school X ammount of money for the ammount of time for each student being there. Thats why my school cracked down on tardies and truants so much. Anyways, there was 1,500 kids at my HS, so thats 1500 kids being there an extra minute, of which the state has to pay money for each and every student there for that extra time. Now mulitply that by every day, and then by every school in the state and you have yourself a mess.

Again, I doubt that the state was measuring the time kids were there in minutes. I imagine half-hour to hour blocks would make the most sense. They might though, I dunno. However, in an eight hour day is going to view a minute as a drop in the bucket, I can guarantee it.

Now that you mention it though, school might not have been officially in session when they asked for the moment of silence. If that's the case they were sneaky clever bastards.

:p

My old school had a specific prayer time in assembly, and in lower school (year 7-9) a hymn every morning. Some teachers would actually say a prayer, others would say, 'Please pause for a quiet moment of reflection'. Many of them stressed that they encouraged people to prayer/reflect however they wanted, even if the emphasis was almost always a Christian one. That said, I opposed the practice because it was unnecessarily emphasising a specific time for group prayer/worship, when, as others have said, prayer should be a private thing and not forced onto those who don't follow those beliefs. The school also granted the Muslim Society a special room during lunch time.

did any of you brits have school mandated prayer time that featured a teacher giving a non christian prayer?

School prayer isn't establishing a state religion, it's just exposing kids to Jesus so they won't grow up to be pagans and go to hell.

School prayer isn't establishing a state religion, it's just exposing kids to Jesus so they won't grow up to be pagans and go to hell.

Now, supposing you were wrong and exposing everyone to Jesus clouded their chakras and they never attain Nirvana? Yes, school prayer IS establishing a religion, unless you intend on giving the kids equal exposure to every religion in the world.

Now, supposing you were wrong and exposing everyone to Jesus clouded their chakras and they never attain Nirvana? Yes, school prayer IS establishing a religion, unless you intend on giving the kids equal exposure to every religion in the world.

Because the Bible says I'm right and are you going to argue with a book? Because that would make you look really stupid arguing with a book. And the first ammendment never says anything about equal time, so no it wouldn't be establishing an official religion. Just like the fact that teaching school in English isn't establishing it as an official language (though I wish they would)

Now, supposing you were wrong and exposing everyone to Jesus clouded their chakras and they never attain Nirvana? Yes, school prayer IS establishing a religion, unless you intend on giving the kids equal exposure to every religion in the world.
Don't bother with him. It's not worth it.

Don't bother with him. It's not worth it.

Yeah, his second post in this thread sets him firmly as an idiotic and unoriginal troll. I miss MeanstoanEnds, at least he could piss me off at all.

Anyways, what is the big deal about school prayer? I mean why are christians hav their panties in a bunch about it? Seriously, Why the hell can't kids pray BEFORE they come to school? or AFTER they leave?

The foundations of Christianity rely on being persecuted and outcasted for your beliefs. At this point they're going out of their way to look for battles. God forbid they ever learn a thing called humility.

No it hasn't. That's clearly unconstitutional, so nobody would ever try that, or if they did they'd get their asses kicked in court.

Similar things have happened. And those responsible have had their arses kicked in court.

In many cases it was the ACLU who has done the kicking.

there shouldn't be school-sponsored prayer. But I doubt that anyone can stop prayer in schools, especially before a big test, especially if the kid(s) didn't study.

I wanted to post this in the SCOTUS thread, but decided not to hijack it.

Anyways, what is the big deal about school prayer? I mean why are christians hav their panties in a bunch about it? Seriously, Why the hell can't kids pray BEFORE they come to school? or AFTER they leave?
I imagine someone's already covered this, but I'm too lazy to read the whole thread.
Christians can pray in school anytime they want to, as long as they aren't diruptive. So can anybody else. It's just that the school, if government funded, can't organize prayer or suggest in any way that all should take part.

Because the Bible says I'm right and are you going to argue with a book? Because that would make you look really stupid arguing with a book. And the first ammendment never says anything about equal time, so no it wouldn't be establishing an official religion. Just like the fact that teaching school in English isn't establishing it as an official language (though I wish they would)
I have a book that say the Bible is a load of crap. Must be true, 'cause somebody wrote it. Nya nya nya! You can't argue with a book. Wow! Now I look as stupid as you do.:p

No idea... there's no such thing at German schools as school prayer.
But every kid can of course silently pray wherever he or she wants to.

This is how it is in NY -- a teacher in a public school cannot lead a class in prayer, cannot require anyone to pray. (The only exception: there ARE religious clubs in school; mine has a Christian and a Muslim club. If students who voluntarily join these clubs wish to discuss their holy books or engage in prayer, since it is voluntary, it's fine.) However, if a child wishes to bow their head and pray quietly, there's nothing or no one to stop him.

there shouldn't be school-sponsored prayer. But I doubt that anyone can stop prayer in schools, especially before a big test, especially if the kid(s) didn't study.

Now THERE'S an ounce of truth.

I'm not American, but I feel there's nothing wrong with prayer in schools. The important thing I think is that if there is to be prayer it should not be imposed on the group unless it advertises itself as a religious school - in which case such things would be expected anyway.

There's a huge difference between praying because you genuinely feel a need and have a desire to and praying because school policy says so (I think this is true even in religious schools, by the way).

Prayer that is truly from the heart WILL NOT INTERFERE WITH THE DOCTRINE OF SEPERATION OF CHURCH FROM STATE, because it will be from the individual's heart, not the government's.

It should however never be forced in a public school (I see religious schools as a slightly different case as people should understand this when they enrol their children in the school anyway (and the child would reasonably expect it, at least in the case of a high school).

Having said that, if a teacher says they would like to pray for somebody and that person consents, there should be no opposition on that front either.

I don't mind other people praying around me in the least. The only time I get even the smallest bit irked is when they try to get me involved in their prayer. I live in southern Mississippi so it may not suprise you that during school football games the announcer will usually say a prayer. I just leave my head up but remain silent in respect of those who wish to pray.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Maybe we should cut the time between classes to 2 minutes, just enough time for everyone to rush to their next class, eh?

In government schools in Queensland, there is no time between classes. What do you need it for? Catch up on gossip? Quickie with that week's boyfriend? What is it's purpose?

In government schools in Queensland, there is no time between classes. What do you need it for? Catch up on gossip? Quickie with that week's boyfriend? What is it's purpose?Ussually the time between classes is necessary to travel to your next class.
Though back in the stone age when I was in highschool we had smoke breaks too. Gotta love South Carolinas tobacco industry.

ok you guys. I've done a speech on prayer in schools and after spending a month of reading all of the materials I could on it, this is what I decided.

Walk the line.

You can't completely ban the practice without having people (ok, parents) who decide that they think a child is praying and they don't want their child exposed to that because it's damaging, against their beliefs, blah blah blah blah. All it does is cause more distruption to the educational system (and overall, I think we have enough of those)

So legalize the ability for students to study religious texts in schools and allow private prayer among students between classes. Less distraction. less problems. If you don't like it, go become home schooled.

that's my point of view on it. Take it as you will.

ok you guys. I've done a speech on prayer in schools and after spending a month of reading all of the materials I could on it, this is what I decided.

Walk the line.

You can't completely ban the practice without having people (ok, parents) who decide that they think a child is praying and they don't want their child exposed to that because it's damaging, against their beliefs, blah blah blah blah. All it does is cause more distruption to the educational system (and overall, I think we have enough of those)

So legalize the ability for students to study religious texts in schools and allow private prayer among students between classes. Less distraction. less problems. If you don't like it, go become home schooled.

that's my point of view on it. Take it as you will.

study religious texts in school? that would be a no......pray in school, I don't care as long as no time from school is lost and it isn't organized......what is it with christians that they think that non christians and atheists want to be indoctrinated to their beliefs........if you need to pray do it at home before you come to school.....

Ussually the time between classes is necessary to travel to your next class.
Though back in the stone age when I was in highschool we had smoke breaks too. Gotta love South Carolinas tobacco industry.

But, I still don't understand. We travel to our next classes, but we don't get special time to do it. Why do you need time between classes? It doesn't take that long to walk from one classroom to the next...

Smoke breaks? That's awesome!:p

I don't really see the problem with it. Prayer in even public schools was very common up until a few years ago when the courts stepped in. I wouldn't mind seeing an increase in prayer, I think it would be good for the kids.

But, I still don't understand. We travel to our next classes, but we don't get special time to do it. Why do you need time between classes? It doesn't take that long to walk from one classroom to the next...

Smoke breaks? That's awesome!:p

Our school was a quarter-mile long, you needed a bit of time to go between classes. That's all it was for, just to get books from your locker and head to your next class. Sometimes you had time to chatter in the halls because you had two classes next to each other, for instance, but it was mostly for using the bathroom and traveling.

study religious texts in school? that would be a no......pray in school, I don't care as long as no time from school is lost and it isn't organized......what is it with christians that they think that non christians and atheists want to be indoctrinated to their beliefs........if you need to pray do it at home before you come to school.....

If by study he meant in a classroom, then I agree. However, if I decided to bring my Bible and read it during down time without bothering anyone, then that should be my right, and that right is of course extended to any religious text. If I've done my schoolwork and as long as I'm not standing in my chair preaching at people, then I think quietly reading a religious book is fine.

I don't know any Christians who think non-Christians and atheists want to be a part of the church. They made that kinda clear when they made the decision not to be a Christian.

Of course, I know that there are Christians out there trying to force you into it, and that's unfortunate, because they don't understand two basic things: One, that a relationship with any deity or personal belief is just that, personal. No one can make you, or should try to make you, have those beliefs. Secondly, it's the wrong way to go about it anyway. Spiritual growth happens through curiosity, and I think the best way to encourage curiosity is to just be myself and wait for someone to ask. No one likes soap boxes.

I don't mind other people praying around me in the least. The only time I get even the smallest bit irked is when they try to get me involved in their prayer. I live in southern Mississippi so it may not suprise you that during school football games the announcer will usually say a prayer. I just leave my head up but remain silent in respect of those who wish to pray.

I feel ya, I grew up in Tennessee and we pray before EVERYTHING here. Fishing tournament? Pray. Golf match? Pray. Football game? Pray. PRAY PRAY PRAY!

And I don't think they've ever asked a Catholic priest to say a prayer, which irks me. If we're going to be doing something like this, you might as well ask ALL the denominations to make everyone uncomfortable.

I don't really see the problem with it. Prayer in even public schools was very common up until a few years ago when the courts stepped in. I wouldn't mind seeing an increase in prayer, I think it would be good for the kids.

I dunno, forcing it on them is one thing, but if the school wanted to set aside a few rooms for before school or during free-time private reflection, I think that'd be fine. All rooms come with the exact same furniture and everything.

The school I teach at has a school prayer (ie, a prayer to God to bless the school). I am the only teacher on staff who won't even give lip service to it.

Schools get away with it because they claim that no child is disciplined for not doing it. Of course, we don't advertise it as optional when the teacher running it demands that every child puts their hands together and bows their head :rolleyes:

If I could remember the prayer, I'd copy it here for laughs. Unfortunately I promptly forgot it when summer holidays started.

The school I teach at has a school prayer (ie, a prayer to God to bless the school). I am the only teacher on staff who won't even give lip service to it.

Schools get away with it because they claim that no child is disciplined for not doing it. Of course, we don't advertise it as optional when the teacher running it demands that every child puts their hands together and bows their head :rolleyes:

If I could remember the prayer, I'd copy it here for laughs. Unfortunately I promptly forgot it when summer holidays started.

Sounds like big money to me. Sue the shit out of them.

I don't really see the problem with it. Prayer in even public schools was very common up until a few years ago when the courts stepped in. I wouldn't mind seeing an increase in prayer, I think it would be good for the kids.

Not "a few years ago," more like over 40 years ago:

In the U.S., staff-sanctioned prayer in public schools was effectively outlawed by two landmark Supreme Court decisions: Engel v. Vitale [1962] and Abington School District v. Schempp [1963]. Following these two landmark cases came the Court's decision in Lemon v. Kurtzman [1971]. This ruling established the so-called "Lemon test" which states that in order to be constitutional under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment any practice sponsored within public schools must: 1) have a secular purpose, 2) must neither advance nor inhibit religion, and 3) must not result in an excessive entanglement between government and religion.

And what prayer would you have? The Muslim five-times-a-day? A nice Christian one that everyone gets to say, Jews, Muslims, etc? What? The point of the SCOTUS rulings on school prayer is that picking one or the other prayer puts a public institution in the position of promoting one religion over another. That's not done here. The government cannot inhibit religious practice, nor can it advance one religion over another.

Betcha this tolerance for school prayer won't apply to the kid breaking out a carpet and kneeling towards Mecca or the local Pagans.

Never does ... you should hear the bitching about their prayer room at collage ... Does not even stop after people find out that not only do they fund the entire conversion they rent the room on a continuous basis at exorbitant prices ...

But, I still don't understand. We travel to our next classes, but we don't get special time to do it. Why do you need time between classes? It doesn't take that long to walk from one classroom to the next...

Smoke breaks? That's awesome!:pSince we didn't do that crap of lugging around all the books we'd need we had to have time to stop by our lockers. And the school I went to in Houston had 6,000 students and part of the school was across the street from the rest.

Hmph. I found out something quite disappointing about where I live. The Sikhs can bring their ceremonial knives to school, but we can't wear our cross necklaces or pray? Seems like some people are paranoid of Christians...

Hmph. I found out something quite disappointing about where I live. The Sikhs can bring their ceremonial knives to school, but we can't wear our cross necklaces or pray? Seems like some people are paranoid of Christians...

well, call the ACLU.

i'm sure they'd take the case.

Someone who hasn't posted in this thread TGed me about it, how odd.

But, I still don't understand. We travel to our next classes, but we don't get special time to do it. Why do you need time between classes? It doesn't take that long to walk from one classroom to the next...

Smoke breaks? That's awesome!:p

If I had a class that ended at 10:00, and another that began at 10:00, I would always be late for the second in middle and high school, and especially college. In middle school, it typically took two minutes to get to the next class, if I rushed. If the next class was on the other side of the school, it might take three or four.

In high school, it took as much as 5 minutes sometimes, because of having to go around people (in one building of my high school, there were several very poorly designed hallways in terms of crowd movement, the other buildigngs were okay though). And that's not counting in the fact that teachers expect you to be in your seat and ready when the class begins, and they sometimes end class late.

In college, my campus is very spread out, and some of my classes have been a half mile, maybe even three quarters of a mile apart. It sometimes takes 15 minutes to walk between classes.

So, to recap, if I had a class that ended at 10:00 and another that began right at 10:00, in middle school I would arrive at 10:03, three minutes late. In high school I might arrive at 10:05, five minutes late. And in college, I might arrive at 10:15, a full quarter of an hour late to class. It should be obvious why a time gap between classes is necessary.

Since we didn't do that crap of lugging around all the books we'd need we had to have time to stop by our lockers. And the school I went to in Houston had 6,000 students and part of the school was across the street from the rest.

Oh yeah, I forgot you have lockers. You're just not tough like us Aussies. :D

Oh yeah, I forgot you have lockers. You're just not tough like us Aussies. :DThough perhaps smarter.:p
I actually rarely used my locker. Had something to do with rarely doing homework. And frequently showing up for class without necessary supplies. I actually had friends who routinely carried extra supplies knowing I'd inevitably show up without them.

As far as prayers at school, I only had to tolerate them at football games. Though I was the only person who refused to cooperate by saying the mandatory Pledge of Allegiance. Having an objection to "under God" in a rural Texas town at that time certainly made me stand out.
(high school was divided between rural Texas, Houston and rural South Carolina)

So legalize the ability for students to study religious texts in schools and allow private prayer among students between classes. Less distraction. less problems. If you don't like it, go become home schooled.
So... in other words you're for the status quo? Any religious text can be read by the student as long as it is not done during instruction time. Any religious text can be used by the teacher as a source as long as it is teaching about the religion in question, not preaching (Meaning as an English teacher I could bring in a psalm as an example of poetry, but I could not teach it as Truth). And, as it has been pointed out over and over and over again, there is NOTHING stopping a student from praying on his or her own time in the school. The prayer just cannot be A. Led by school authorities, B. Be mandatory, C. Be during instructional time ('Oh God, let me pass this test' excepted of course. ;) ), and D. Be discriminatory in nature (No praying out loud for the death of homosexuals or anyone else for example).

Honestly, prayer has been allowed, it's just the mandatory prayer that runs afoul of the establishment clause.

Want to pray? Go to a catholic school.

I go to a C.E. school so the monday assembly normaly starts with a hymn - which I sing with very little gusto. It ends with a prayer, which I try to ignore.

hehe... Lockers...

Well, my school didn't have them either. I guess there are a few of us Americans that can relate to carrying all of our books and stuff.

But anyways, I am right now in a German School in Bavaria. (somewhere around Nuremberg) And there is plenty of Religion here. Crosses in every classroom. A few of my teachers even start the day with prayer. (esp. my Latin teacher) So far, I haven't seen anyone really complain. But then, they all seem more tolerant of different values/lifestyles. Also I haven't seen any hard core religous wackos in the 7 months I've been here.

A few of you don't seem to know what is "banned" and what isn't. Here are a few examples that the U.S. Surpreme court made:

-Court finds religious instruction in public schools a violation of the establishment clause and therefore unconstitutional.

-School initiated-prayer in the public school system violates the First Amendment

-Bible reading over school intercom unconstitutional

-Court finds posting of the Ten Commandments in schools unconstitutional.

-State's moment of silence at public school statute is unconstitutional where legislative record reveals that motivation for statute was the encouragement of prayer.

-Unconstitutional for a school district to provide any clergy to perform nondenominational prayer at elementary or secondary school graduation.

and...

-Students may not use a school's loudspeaker system to offer student-led, student-initiated prayer


you could find some details on these Links.

http://www.uscourts.gov/outreach/resources/landmark_studentcases.htm

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/church-state/decisions.html

Oh yeah, In Germany, there are actually religion classes (in the Gymnasium anyway. Not to be mistaken for Physical Edu class.)

The idea of not being allowed to pray in school (if that is what you are talking about, if you are talking about forced prayer then disregard this statement) is completely retarded to me. It really is against anyones basic freedoms, it's disgusting to think that people get expelled for expressing themselves. Praying in school does not show any sort of merge between state and church WHATSOEVER, it does not = state promoting one religion over another as it is individual to your beliefs. It is not institutionalised.

The US Supreme Court ruling was meant to prevent teachers and schools from forcing individual students to say prayers. It was not meant to keep prayers totally out of public schools. The ruling was necessary because some schools and teachers demanded that students say prayers that were usually Christian in nature while in the classroom. Students who didn't want to participate were shamed and ridiculed in front of classmates.

I don't really see the problem with it. Prayer in even public schools was very common up until a few years ago when the courts stepped in. I wouldn't mind seeing an increase in prayer, I think it would be good for the kids.

It was. but what happened is a lot of conflict. Students who didn't want to pray could stand out in the hall but then they were discriminated against by the majority of the students who did participate. That's why it was taken out. To promote religious freedom and stop discrimination. Makes a lot of sense if you ask me.

And for the one who said no to studying religious texts in school, it is a practice. If you go to any of the BYU colleges they offer classes for credit studying the Bible, Book of Mormon, Quoran, and I think several others. So why not offfer it in lower classes of school like high school?

I wanted to post this in the SCOTUS thread, but decided not to hijack it.

Anyways, what is the big deal about school prayer? I mean why are christians hav their panties in a bunch about it? Seriously, Why the hell can't kids pray BEFORE they come to school? or AFTER they leave?


Yea I'd like to know what is the big deal. Why do non christians have there panties in a bunch. This is America isn't it, we should be able to pray anywhere we please. And children should be tought about both sides of the fence so they will be equipped to make a intelligent decision about their place in the world.

did any of you brits have school mandated prayer time that featured a teacher giving a non christian prayer?

Only when a pupil had given the assembly talk, once a term/halfterm there would be the token talk by the Muslim or Sikh society, and that would end with non-Christian prayer. All the teachers would give Christian prayers, I don't remember there ever being a muslim teacher. I think my school did consider itself a Christian school, just not officially. That may have been the drive of the headmaster though.

If anyone is interested, early last year, my headmaster featured in a double page spread in the Daily Mail, which accused him of faking his name and profession to get with women, taking drugs supposedly confiscated from pupils, and included a hilarious picture of him in a lovely red dress. The accusations came from an ex-girlfriend, and he was subsequently dismissed for 'gross misconduct'. I present, Tim Dingle/Dr. James Bunyard. 'Twas a funny time at the school :D

Prayer, and God for that matter, has no place in a school. Just like facts have no place in organised religion.

Beat me to it. :mad:

Its just a damn popularity contest with you kids.

American Civil Liberties Union

They provide free legal advice and representation when your civil liberties have been trampled by organizations and such.

The Right-Side Spin: THE ACLU NEVER HELPS CHRISTIANS AND HATES AMERICA LOLOLOLOL

The Left-Side Spin: THE ACLU CAN'T DO ANY WRONG LOLOLOLOL

The Facts: The ACLU has equally represented anyone who has come to them, from atheists to Christians to Nazis.

Indeed. As much as Fox News hates them, they sure got their hero Oliver North out of some hot water.

Beat me to it. :mad:

Its just a damn popularity contest with you kids.

Eh?

Eh?

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a47/DarkSideOfTheSpoon/simpsonsen.jpg

I believe I remember that quote now. Not, you know, exactly, but anyways.

Hmph. I found out something quite disappointing about where I live. The Sikhs can bring their ceremonial knives to school, but we can't wear our cross necklaces or pray? Seems like some people are paranoid of Christians...

where do you go to school?

And children should be tought about both sides of the fence so they will be equipped to make a intelligent decision about their place in the world.

no....being taught both sides would mean that a class debunking the christian belief system would be necessary to counter a religious class, would you accept a class being taught exposing the bibles fallacies? .....as it is now it's neutral there is no judgment passed on religion and that how it should be left.......

It was. but what happened is a lot of conflict. Students who didn't want to pray could stand out in the hall but then they were discriminated against by the majority of the students who did participate. That's why it was taken out. To promote religious freedom and stop discrimination. Makes a lot of sense if you ask me.

And for the one who said no to studying religious texts in school, it is a practice. If you go to any of the BYU colleges they offer classes for credit studying the Bible, Book of Mormon, Quoran, and I think several others. So why not offfer it in lower classes of school like high school?

Well, BYU is a Mormon college, so that's really not a good example. However, I do agree that religious texts should be allowed to be taught in lower classes of school, such as high school.

Teaching about religious texts in a purely educational manner only serves to inform students about different religions. Seeing as schools serve to educate students about wide varieties of subjects, including those which some students may have no use for or interest in, this type of non-biased, purely-for-the-sake-of-educating study of religious texts would be in keeping with the first amendment's establishment clause.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a47/DarkSideOfTheSpoon/simpsonsen.jpg

I'm sorry about your cat ... but God is not dead.

Sounds like big money to me. Sue the shit out of them.

Australia isn't quite as sue-happy as the US. A few years back, some parents (at another school with a similar prayer) complained to the media and the Department of Education and Training, and nothing came of it.

I also remember the prayer now. For your amusement/scorn:

"Our Heavenly Father,
We give our thanks for this new day,
And are reminded that all good things come from thee.
Give us clear minds to remember our lessons,
Healthy bodies to enjoy work and play
And kind thoughts towards each other.
Bless our homes, bless our teachers
And help us to remember that the honour of the school depends on us.
In God's name,
Amen."

The scary part is that this is a "toned-down" version of the original prayer to make it less CHristian-centric. :eek:

I wanted to post this in the SCOTUS thread, but decided not to hijack it.

Anyways, what is the big deal about school prayer? I mean why are christians hav their panties in a bunch about it? Seriously, Why the hell can't kids pray BEFORE they come to school? or AFTER they leave?


A) It violates their rights by saying they can't.

B) Some religions require you pray multiple times a day, Like Islam and kids will be in school at those times and by saying saying you can't forces them to violate their religions laws and you violating their rights.



There, let them pray of they want. By them praying won't turn you into a christian and they are not forcing you to do it either, but you ARE forcing them to do things your way and forcing them to violate their relgious beliefs witch you have no right to do.


You Christian Yet?

Because then the non-religious kids won't be exposed to religion and grow up to be miscreants who haven't see the light.

Because religious kids are immune to all forms of wrong doing...(!)

If you brain wash them with religion, you're setting a easily manipulatable precedent for others to use that brain washing for their own ends... I'd rather my kids be taught to question. If they wanna go religious later, then that's their choice. At least this way, they GET a choice!

Besides, what gives you the right to dictate which "light" they are exposed to...

I wanted to post this in the SCOTUS thread, but decided not to hijack it.

Anyways, what is the big deal about school prayer? I mean why are christians hav their panties in a bunch about it? Seriously, Why the hell can't kids pray BEFORE they come to school? or AFTER they leave?
Yeah, isn't it funny?

We've got all these Christian parents basically saying, "We can't structure our kids' time the way good parents should! We can't teach them about religion! We can't figure out how to get them to sit down, shut up, and think about Jeebus for a minute! WE NEED THE SCHOOLS TO DO OUR JOB FOR US!!!"

Any children in my house can pray at any time they wish, in fact they would be encouraged to do just that. But my point is that they should be allowed to pray in school if they wish. This is America, where you are supposed to be free to practice your religion after all.

prayer is entirely a personal matter, like sex and going to the bath room, and has no bussiness being mandated by any hierarchal 'authority'.

either for or against. though i think if someone were to disrupt the education proccess by constantly and inconsiderately praying out loud in class, well i think this would fall under the same catigory as any other sort of malitious thoughlessness.

otherwise, what anyone feels, between themselves, and whatever they perceive to be spiritualy greater then themselves, is again, their own damd bussiness, and NO body's, not a school nor a nation, bussiness but their own. period.

and it IS IMMORAL coersion to require anyone to kiss the ass of ANY belief their OWN HEART has not PERSONALY discouvered and investigated ON THEIR OWN, and not within ANY sort of guided context or pretext.

=^^=
.../\...

Personally I would prefer to home school my children. But unforunately I am transgendered and don't have any children of my own and aren't allowed to adopt any either. Even if I had children of my own the government would probly try to take them away from me because of my personal issues.

Any children in my house can pray at any time they wish, in fact they would be encouraged to do just that. But my point is that they should be allowed to pray in school if they wish. This is America, where you are supposed to be free to practice your religion after all.
In America, you are allowed to pray in school.

prayer is entirely a personal matter, like sex and going to the bath room, and has no bussiness being mandated by any hierarchal 'authority'.

either for or against. though i think if someone were to disrupt the education proccess by constantly and inconsiderately praying out loud in class, well i think this would fall under the same catigory as any other sort of malitious thoughlessness.

otherwise, what anyone feels, between themselves, and whatever they perceive to be spiritualy greater then themselves, is again, their own damd bussiness, and NO body's, not a school nor a nation, bussiness but their own. period.

and it IS IMMORAL coersion to require anyone to kiss the ass of ANY belief their OWN HEART has not PERSONALY discouvered and investigated ON THEIR OWN, and not within ANY sort of guided context or pretext.

=^^=
.../\...


Oh please Mary ... now prayer is like sex or going to the restroom, so we can't do it in public! Give me a break. What are you doing when you say I can't pray at school ... isn't that a mandate as well? Why don't you just admit that you don't want it because it bothers you at a personal level so your going to try to take my childrens right to freedom of religion so you can feel better about yourself!

In America, you are allowed to pray in school.


Here is a link to just one group that is opposed to any type of prayer in schools just because it supposedly offends others.

http://www.atheists.org/publicschools/faqs.prayer.html#kids

Here is a link to just one group that is opposed to any type of prayer in schools just because it supposedly offends others.

http://www.atheists.org/publicschools/faqs.prayer.html#kids

So, there are asses among the atheists. As Bottle says, you can pray in school in America. You just can't have the school itself, being a governmental entity, making prayer mandatory. I myself seem to recall praying quite a bit in school, usually during gym class ("Please, God, keep them from making us run around outside in our underwear on a 45 degree day!").

Amendment I - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Here is a link to just one group that is opposed to any type of prayer in schools just because it supposedly offends others.

http://www.atheists.org/publicschools/faqs.prayer.html#kids

And there are groups that push for mandatory christian prayer in schools. That doesn't mean their beliefs are policy.

Amendment I - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

So who's preventing people from praying privately? Oh, right. Noone.

And there are groups that push for mandatory christian prayer in schools. That doesn't mean their beliefs are policy.


According to Constitutional Law any religion ( not just christianity ) should be able to freely pray in school if they wish too. To do any thing else is unlawful under US Law.

According to Constitutional Law any religion ( not just christianity ) should be able to freely pray in school if they wish too. To do any thing else is unlawful under US Law.

And they are allowed to. Just not loudly in the middle of class nor lead/mandated by an authority. That whole establishment thing you didn't bold.

The establishment of religion speaks to congress not being able to establish
a national religion. I was not talking about that so no I didn't bold that part of it. That does bring up another interesting thought though, which is Separation of Church and State. Separation of church and state was originally made to stop the government from establishing a mandatory state church like the one in colonial england.

Sorry Guys & Gals I have been called into work so I will answer any other posts directed to me at a later time.

Here is a link to just one group that is opposed to any type of prayer in schools just because it supposedly offends others.

http://www.atheists.org/publicschools/faqs.prayer.html#kids
Yes, there are groups that oppose prayer in schools. There are also groups that oppose books in schools. So what?

The fact that other people exist and have opinions doesn't stop you from praying in schools. Groups like the ACLU have fought long and hard to protect your right to individual religious expression in public places, including in public schools, and I think their hard work deserves a little recognition.

Yes, there are groups that oppose prayer in schools. There are also groups that oppose books in schools. So what?

The fact that other people exist and have opinions doesn't stop you from praying in schools. Groups like the ACLU have fought long and hard to protect your right to individual religious expression in public places, including in public schools, and I think their hard work deserves a little recognition.

amen. thank GOD(s/essess) for the ACLU, alternative media, and all HONEST interested parties. without them, bush WOULD be hitler.

(yes, that IS what i honestly believe.)

=^^=
.../\...

The establishment of religion speaks to congress not being able to establish
a national religion. I was not talking about that so no I didn't bold that part of it. That does bring up another interesting thought though, which is Separation of Church and State. Separation of church and state was originally made to stop the government from establishing a mandatory state church like the one in colonial england.

The Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment is incorporated throught the 14th amendment to include the states. Making state/federal funded schools mandate prayer specifying a particular faith is establishing a religion.

I wanted to post this in the SCOTUS thread, but decided not to hijack it.

Anyways, what is the big deal about school prayer? I mean why are christians hav their panties in a bunch about it? Seriously, Why the hell can't kids pray BEFORE they come to school? or AFTER they leave?

Prayers have always been in school. Don't believe me? go to any class just as the teacher announces a surprise test, I can guarentee you that some, if not all, of the kids are praying! :D


Now School led prayer is illegal, since teachers cannot force people of differing faiths to pray to a God they don't believe in. However, if the student him/herself wants to pray, and does so in a way that does not distract others in class, then go for it.

Heh, the whole issue is really pretty silly.

If you want to pray in your school, do it. You don't have to do it loudly or over the loudspeaker or with chrome rosary beads or a flashing neon prayer mat. Get together with a group of your brothers and/or sisters during lunch, or between classes, or whatever. It's usually not all that hard.

If you honestly think that a law (only loosely followed in any school I've seen) can stop prayer, you'd better relearn the definition.

Here is a link to just one group that is opposed to any type of prayer in schools just because it supposedly offends others.

http://www.atheists.org/publicschools/faqs.prayer.html#kids

Ermm.... If you take the time to actually read the FAQ you'll find that they explicitly say that children are free to pray in school, it's just mandated, teacher-led prayer they're objecting to. I quote:

Q: But don't we need a Religious Equality Amendment or other legislation to protect the rights of the students who DO wish to pray?

A: That is not the purpose of proposed legislation such as the Religious Equality Amendment. Students can pray, even in schools if they choose to do so. They can pray during lunch-breaks, walking or being transported to and from the school, and of course, during their free time. School prayer advocates know this; but the real purpose of the prayer-in-school movement is to either coerce everyone into joining in prayer and religious ritual, or having official government sanction of religion. That is clearly wrong, a violation of the separation of government and religion.

A lot of people seem to think that 'Religious Freedom' means that they're allowed to force other people to participate in their religion?