NationStates Jolt Archive

It's a somewhat puzzling concept for me. There have been several threads about the topic recently, but I still apparently fail to understand the basics.

First of, I don't feel I own any country, so whay would I be talking of "my country"? My parents are from two different countries, I grew up in one of them, spent some time in an entirely different country and now live in yet another one.
The country I grew up in changed its borders countless times, even during my lifetime. So which parts of it should I feel are "mine", precisely?
I've never been to most parts of the country I grew up in, let alone the other 3. Nor do I know that majority of their people.
I appreciate the culture of all 4 countries in question, and I like the cuisine of 3 of them.
I've learned lessons from the history of all 4.
I've got friends in all 4 countries, and more besides.
Apart from my nationality, I've got nothing that particularly attaches me to any one of the 4 countries in question. On the contrary, I normally will go to some length to avoid people from 2 of the countries while away.

So why do people feel the need to create a somewhat artificial sense of attachment?

I don't think they do. their governments do, because it's useful to have your peons' favorite symbols under your control. I have more loyalty to my favorite band than to my country.

I don't think they do. their governments do, because it's useful to have your peons' favorite symbols under your control. I have more loyalty to my favorite band than to my country.
More or less. Patriotism is fine by me (I believe it's linked to human territorialism), but nationalism and statism both vex me - each to their own, but I want nothing to do with the two intertwined mentalities, particularly not the latter one...

More or less. Patriotism is fine by me (I believe it's linked to human territorialism), but nationalism and statism both vex me - each to their own, but I want nothing to do with the two intertwined mentalities, particularly not the latter one...

The thing about territorialism is that it only works for groups of up to around 200 people... that's about the number our brain can handle as "family" or "tribe". Everything above that and we start to feel ourselves among strangers pretty much...

The thing about territorialism is that it only works for groups of up to around 200 people... that's about the number our brain can handle as "family" or "tribe". Everything above that and we start to feel ourselves among strangers pretty much...
I know - ever noticed how smaller communities are far more tight-knit in general than larger areas? People are usually far more likely to feel close to their town than their country (observe England, for instance). I suppose there is a degree of artificiality involved with patriotism really - even with larger communities there might be.

The thing about territorialism is that it only works for groups of up to around 200 people... that's about the number our brain can handle as "family" or "tribe". Everything above that and we start to feel ourselves among strangers pretty much...

which is why we simplified things by dehumanising EVERYBODY and replacing them with generic "american" or "french" or "turkish" or whatever. so long as they look marginally similar to that imaginary ideal citizen, they're identified as part of the tribe. it works well, which is unfortunate, as it's also evil.

Ask a psychiatrist. I'm sure it's more biological than political.

Ask a psychiatrist. I'm sure it's more biological than political.
It might be according to the author of this (http://www.amazon.com/Territorial-Imperative-Personal-Property-Kodansha/dp/1568361440/sr=8-1/qid=1167917184/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-3887864-4359959?ie=UTF8&s=books) book.

It might be according to the author of this (http://www.amazon.com/Territorial-Imperative-Personal-Property-Kodansha/dp/1568361440/sr=8-1/qid=1167917184/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-3887864-4359959?ie=UTF8&s=books) book.

The title does imply that :confused:

It might be according to the author of this (http://www.amazon.com/Territorial-Imperative-Personal-Property-Kodansha/dp/1568361440/sr=8-1/qid=1167917184/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-3887864-4359959?ie=UTF8&s=books) book.

it just made my list of books I need to read.

It might be according to the author of this (http://www.amazon.com/Territorial-Imperative-Personal-Property-Kodansha/dp/1568361440/sr=8-1/qid=1167917184/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-3887864-4359959?ie=UTF8&s=books) book.

ooo, good link. 5 sentience points to you, sir! (or madam) - I'll have to read that some day.

The title does imply that :confused:
Read the reviews... :rolleyes:

it just made my list of books I need to read.

ooo, good link. 5 sentience points to you, sir! (or madam) - I'll have to read that some day.
It's funny, as I found it completely randomly, but it seems worth the read. It's one of the first books I've seen that attempts to draw the connection between biology and politics.

Country is based on culture. That's why I'm very proud of it. :D

Country is based on culture. That's why I'm very proud of it. :D

Not necessarily. Southern Germany shares culture with Austria and Northern Italy more than it does with Northern Germany....

Because even though our land mass is tiny, we used to own about 1/4 of the world.:)

Because even though our land mass is tiny, we used to own about 1/4 of the world.:)

You did? Seriously? You alone or did you have to share with your parents?

Yes its my country I have a say in it, the government rules on my behalf does it not (and the next mans behalf, and the next womans behalf etc.) I vote so I count

I am proud of my country its past achievments its current achievments, and hope that I can contribute to this in some way...

Yes its my country I have a say in it, the government rules on my behalf does it not (and the next mans behalf, and the next womans behalf etc.) I vote so I count

I am proud of my country its past achievments its current achievments, and hope that I can contribute to this in some way...

So..... the right to vote makes you feel an attachement to the abstract concept of "country"?

It's a somewhat puzzling concept for me. There have been several threads about the topic recently, but I still apparently fail to understand the basics.

First of, I don't feel I own any country, so whay would I be talking of "my country"? My parents are from two different countries, I grew up in one of them, spent some time in an entirely different country and now live in yet another one.
The country I grew up in changed its borders countless times, even during my lifetime. So which parts of it should I feel are "mine", precisely?
I've never been to most parts of the country I grew up in, let alone the other 3. Nor do I know that majority of their people.
I appreciate the culture of all 4 countries in question, and I like the cuisine of 3 of them.
I've learned lessons from the history of all 4.
I've got friends in all 4 countries, and more besides.
Apart from my nationality, I've got nothing that particularly attaches me to any one of the 4 countries in question. On the contrary, I normally will go to some length to avoid people from 2 of the countries while away.

So why do people feel the need to create a somewhat artificial sense of attachment?

i don't know... simple tribalism. when i don't think about it i do feel a strange instinctual draw to my "fellow countrymen", especially at times when i need such solidarity.
however, thinking about it i, like you cabra, have parents from two different countries, neither of whom spoke english as their first language, and i realise that good people can be found anywhere on the globe, just as bad people are. there are things about the country i live in (and grew up/was born in) i am proud of, and things i am not. being proud of, or simply appreciating some of these things does not, to me, make me feel any affection towards this country. certainly not 'love' or much in the way of nationalistic feelings.

frankly, i want to get out of this country as soon as i really can ;)

i don't know... simple tribalism. when i don't think about it i do feel a strange instinctual draw to my "fellow countrymen", especially at times when i need such solidarity.
however, thinking about it i, like you cabra, have parents from two different countries, neither of whom spoke english as their first language, and i realise that good people can be found anywhere on the globe, just as bad people are. there are things about the country i live in (and grew up/was born in) i am proud of, and things i am not. being proud of, or simply appreciating some of these things does not, to me, make me feel any affection towards this country. certainly not 'love' or much in the way of nationalistic feelings.

frankly, i want to get out of this country as soon as i really can ;)

Ireland's not far away ;)

Identity issues, espescially those relating to the group.

People need to feel that they belong to a group, and a country is the absolute highest level of terminal loyalty for the vast bulk of humanity.

It's more than artificial for most people, it's a vitally important part of many people's identities.

Identity issues, espescially those relating to the group.

People need to feel that they belong to a group, and a country is the absolute highest level of terminal loyalty for the vast bulk of humanity.

It's more than artificial for most people, it's a vitally important part of many people's identities.

Wouldn't you think that they find their identities in natural groups, like families, rather than artificial constructs?
It must take some effort on their part to identify with people who may even speak a different language, yet are part of the same country?

Ireland's not far away ;)

ah australia is where i've got my eyes on, i'm afraid. ireland seems lovely (and a damn sight better than england) but i need somewhere warm!:p

It must take some effort on their part to identify with people who may even speak a different language, yet are part of the same country?
i actually feel a fair bit of patriotism for the EU, which is very much an arbitary construct. moreso than i do for this country, oddly enough...

Wouldn't you think that they find their identities in natural groups, like families, rather than artificial constructs?
It must take some effort on their part to identify with people who may even speak a different language, yet are part of the same country?

Not particularly, the family certainly is one basic form of external identification, but it exists on a very, very micro level. People also seek to identify on a macro level (to feel that they're involved in something important and big is one potential argument), and the macro extension of the concept of family (think Iceland, where genetic similarities are so damn close) is the nation. Prior to the development of the national identity, people tended to identify with religion far more so as a macro force, but since the development of the nation-state, identification by religion has drastically decreased.

ah australia is where i've got my eyes on, i'm afraid. ireland seems lovely (and a damn sight better than england) but i need somewhere warm!:p
I don't get why people dislike England so. :confused: At any rate, Australia sounds like a good idea. It should save you from a major culture shock (other than the North to South hemisphere switch). :)

i actually feel a fair bit of patriotism for the EU, which is very much an arbitary construct. moreso than i do for this country, oddly enough...

Not so much patriotism, but I do like it. It made a lot of things a good deal easier for me, and I think it's a good concept on the whole.

Social scientists have done a lot of research on this matter, I'd advise that you look for some of their stuff.

I don't get why people dislike England so. :confused: At any rate, Australia sounds like a good idea. It should save you from a major culture shock (other than the North to South hemisphere switch). :)

lol i'll have to get used to the water going down the plughole the wrong way! :eek:
and having christmas on the beach.... (yay! :D)

i dislike england probably firstly for the weather (grey, cold, cloudy, dreary, wet, rainy... did i mention grey?), then for the fact that we work the longest hours in the EU (maybe not now that its expanded though) for not even the highest pay in the EU (not the highest GDP per cap) and also our economy is more unequal than any other in the EU. then of course we have one of the highest costs of living in the world, as well as chavs and everybody seems to be miserable or angry all the time. our national culture revolves around drinking/the pub (which i never do any more/don't go to) and football, which i hate.
on top of all that the politics here is really rather conservative for my liking.
that was all true, at least, when i was doing my economics degree. i shouldn't think its changed much.

the redeeming features are: a) its a first world country, b) the NHS, c) good infrastructure, d) we have state schooling even if it sucks, and e) the BBC. oh and we're not prone to many natural disasters. yay.

*snip*
Funny, you like it for some of the features I'd dislike it, and vice versa. :D

Anyway, the weather could be a damper I suppose for most. I like the cold, so it bothers me little. I could imagine it being a rather depressing place to live in nowadays, outside of the quaint little towns such as Stratford-upon-Avon, and London's better areas. Hope you like Australia better. :)

Funny, you like it for some of the features I'd dislike it, and vice versa. :D

Anyway, the weather could be a damper I suppose for most. I like the cold, so it bothers me little. I could imagine it being a rather depressing place to live in nowadays, outside of the quaint little towns such as Stratford-upon-Avon, and London's better areas. Hope you like Australia better. :)

thanks, i will :) not sure when i can move but meh.... one day *dreams*

anyway, will stop hijacking cabra's thread now :p

I don't get why people dislike England so. :confused: At any rate, Australia sounds like a good idea. It should save you from a major culture shock (other than the North to South hemisphere switch). :)
And having to hang onto the bottom of the world!

With a bit of luck I should be studying medicine at uni next September/October, right at the time where the newspapers are predicting mass redundancies in the NHS in five years time, so migration might be thrust upon me. I wouldn't complain about moving to pastures new, though. I don't know why, but Canada/Australia have always seemed quite attractive. Canada has the added benefit of not having to be eternally tormented by cricket, I suppose...

Social scientists have done a lot of research on this matter, I'd advise that you look for some of their stuff.
I've been looking for books on this matter, and to my surprise it is woefully lacking. Most books on the human nature debate contain some explication of how the theories expounded within them link to societal organisation, but the book I linked before is about the only one that draws a clear link and studies that very topic.

And having to hang onto the bottom of the world!
It's not quite as hard as people think it is. :)

With a bit of luck I should be studying medicine at uni next September/October, right at the time where the newspapers are predicting mass redundancies in the NHS in five years time, so migration might be thrust upon me. I wouldn't complain about moving to pastures new, though. I don't know why, but Canada/Australia have always seemed quite attractive. Canada has the added benefit of not having to be eternally tormented by cricket, I suppose...
I'd say consider the US as well - to my knowledge they have a great liking towards British trained medical professionals, for some reason. I'd recommend South Africa, but nowadays I am not sure if it's worth it...

I'm proud of your country ...

My own? Well ... we're workin' on it.

I have no attachment to my country either, I dont think of myself as Irish, but I do take pride in being an urban person as opposed to being raised in the country. I also have a fondness for my hometown and would at times defend it from the plans property developers seek to put into practice. But I dont really understand why people would die for their country etc. I guess the answer lies in evolutionary psychology, some people within that field have argued that altruism/community oriented people were favoured through natural selection over selfish individuals. So people in other words would have an allegiance to their super tribe- the nation state as a by product based on their primeval past.

We all try to find communities, in an age of globalization(buzzword) and postmodern constituted identites (buzzwords). With these two things in mind it can be the case that some people are less likely to identify with a powerful identifying agent such as a nation state and moreso with ideas or consumer driven ideas which are more prevalent in the media. Well in my experience anyway, I dont see national anthems being recited every hour on tv.

I guess the answer lies in evolutionary psychology, some people within that field have argued that altruism/community oriented people were favoured through natural selection over selfish individuals.
Could be, but if so at least natural selection didn't kill us selfish ones all off. :D

We need partitioned areas in order for more efficiant governance, these lines are then formalised by allegiance to a set of Principles that your area espouses, and then before you know it you have to defend your principles from another set, thus creating countrues feuds and fear/hatred/dislike of other countries.

Marx believed that Europe would become Socialist before WW1 as people would unite by class, transceding borders, but the war devided people back down nationalistic lines. Which was a good thing (In my opinion anyway).

It also gives people somethig to hold on to, and if it is an aggressive group then something to do (Force your ideals down others throats). It gives people pride, I am immensly proud of my country (GB) and dont appreciate other nations/organisations (EU) runnning rough-shod over my country.

Edit: I should have included Religion in there as well.

Ask a psychiatrist. I'm sure it's more biological than political.

:rolleyes:

on top of all that the politics here is really rather conservative for my liking.
Australia’s politics are pretty conservative too, i think.

Australia’s politics are pretty conservative too, i think.
Pretty much. Australia is more laissez-faire than England even I believe, but I'm not sure on this. It's one of the Anglo-Saxon Keynesian type countries, meaning economic liberalism plus slight social conservatism.

You did? Seriously? You alone or did you have to share with your parents?

Notice the whole 'we' that I used, so how could that be just myself. Also, why would it be my parents? This topic is on countries. I answered the question set.

Pretty much. Australia is more laissez-faire than England even I believe, but I'm not sure on this. It's one of the Anglo-Saxon Keynesian type countries, meaning economic liberalism plus slight social conservatism.

Australia’s politics are pretty conservative too, i think.

from what i hear, i know that.... but i don't really care if its sunny ;)

So why do people feel the need to create a somewhat artificial sense of attachment?

well. i really like the country i live in. I like the people, culture, I like most things about it. I pretty much dislike the country was born in and would never want to live there, that's why i moved.

I also feel attached to my new home because i own property here, pay taxes, my child was born just over 2 months ago here and at the moment would like to spend the rest of my life here.

1, Basic territorialism; "This is mine, try and take it if you dare!"

2, It beats being proud of someone else's country. ;)


So why do people feel the need to create a somewhat artificial sense of attachment?

Dunno, but you could ask the same about almost any attachments people form.

So why do people feel the need to create a somewhat artificial sense of attachment?


Personally, I don't see it as an artificial sense of attachment. I was born and raised in the US, and I feel fortunate and greatful for that. Now, Both my parents were born in other countries, so I also feel some sense of connection to their countries and their cultures.

My problem is the bloated sense of percieved superiority some people have of their country. That I have a real problem with. While there is nothing wrong with being proud of where you come from, I detest when people feel their culture is superior to others.

I have to use the USA as an example, because this attitude is quite prevalent here. A lot, though not all, of Americans feel that our "culture", which is no real culture at all but a mix of many, is somehow superior based on the fact that we are richer, more powerful, etc. But that does not translate to more educated, more cultured, informed, or civilized. One of my favorite quotes says it best:

"How much longer are we going to think it necessary to be ''American'' before (or in contradistinction to) being cultivated, being enlightened, being humane, and having the same intellectual discipline as other civilized countries?"
Edith Wharton

My Country made me a Christmas card out of macaroni and glue. Really, though, I'd be proud of anything my Country decides to do. He's such a big boy!

ah australia is where i've got my eyes on, i'm afraid. ireland seems lovely (and a damn sight better than england) but i need somewhere warm!:p
Also look into America. Being a socialist and all you wont fit in politically, but there is literally somthing for everyone hear...and not two regions of the country are the same.

Anyway, to the OP....its just a sense of belonging to a unit greater than yourself. To be fair, I care more for the individual, than for the state...but I dont deny the state/community/nation. Its there, and its built on the acheivments of my parents, my grandparents, my friends, their parents...ect...its what has influenced me because its what I have grew up in. Nations were built to be constructs of a greater people other than just yourself....it was built for you and you have ever right to take pride in it.

That being said..I'm not..."America! Fuck the rest of the world".....:rolleyes: I really really appreaciate other cultures, some of my favorites being British (and its anglo influence), Egyptian/Roman/Greek, German, Swiss, Japanese, Dutch...ect

In fact, while I LOVE my nation and I take utmost pride in it, I LIVE for travelling and experiencing other cultures first hand.:)

It's a somewhat puzzling concept for me. There have been several threads about the topic recently, but I still apparently fail to understand the basics.

First of, I don't feel I own any country, so whay would I be talking of "my country"? My parents are from two different countries, I grew up in one of them, spent some time in an entirely different country and now live in yet another one.
The country I grew up in changed its borders countless times, even during my lifetime. So which parts of it should I feel are "mine", precisely?
With a background like that your feelings are entirely understandable.

I have lived in Ireland all my life, and both my parents are from here, so I suppose my background is opposite to yours!

I just feel like this country is my home, and will always be. Thus I love it and I am willing to expend considerable time and energy trying to improve it and defend it, even if what I do doesn't benefit me directly.

I'm proud of your country ...

My own? Well ... we're workin' on it.
Don't mess with Texas! ;)

from what i hear, i know that.... but i don't really care if its sunny ;)
And you've made it quite clear that you're a champagne socialist, so it wouldn't really affect you anyway.

I was proud of my country when the majority of states elected democratic officials. Bush wasn't so smug then!

For most people its not an artifical sense of attachment. Because most people are born and raised in only place and its all they know the only thing they are comfortable with. So I can see why most are proud of their country and have a sense of devotion to it. What I don't understand is why people refuse to have devotion to either their country or their God and only care about themselves or "free love" or something. To me those people seem weak.

And you've made it quite clear that you're a champagne socialist, so it wouldn't really affect you anyway.

too kind.

*doesn't care*

too kind.

*doesn't care*
You really should think about what is effectively yet another nail in the coffin of your socialist convictions.

I'm proud of my country because of what it (should) stand for; our Constitution guarantees personal and political freedom within the context of representative democracy, and that is something worth being proud of and fighting for if necessary. I'm also proud of our country's ability to overcome challenges and right its wrongs, even if that process is painful and time consuming.

I am proud of America as a changing nation that manages to provide a high level of personal, economic and political freedom to its people.

We have the Tragically Hip, Tim Hortons, a winning hockey team, a dedication to peace, universal health care, great poets like Michael Ondaatje and the late John Newlove, freedom and human rights, and lot's of other things (and people) of which I am quite fond.

We have the Tragically Hip, Tim Hortons, a winning hockey team, a dedication to peace, universal health care, great poets like Michael Ondaatje and the late John Newlove, freedom and human rights, and lot's of other things (and people) of which I am quite fond.

Plus, you've got nice forests and I've never met a rude Canadian.

It seems incredibly pointless to me, but very common nonetheless; it probably has something to do with the human tendency to group ourselves.

And you've made it quite clear that you're a champagne socialist, so it wouldn't really affect you anyway.

You really should think about what is effectively yet another nail in the coffin of your socialist convictions.


I am the leader of the workers
And I'll tell you why the Left is suspect
Because there's something you don't understand
Only my line is correct
'Cause I am the vanguard of the masses
And all of you should just follow me
If you doubt my analysis
You must be in the petty bourgeoisie

;)

You really should think about what is effectively yet another nail in the coffin of your socialist convictions.

why exactly are you attacking me, personally, for no good reason, may i ask?

besides, i really don't care. call me whatever you like, i know what i believe in and don't give a flying fuck what you think you little prick.


ask someone who actually knows me whether or not i have 'actual' socialist convictions.

And you've made it quite clear that you're a champagne socialist, so it wouldn't really affect you anyway.
What would a "champagne socialist" be? I can guess, but some minor explication would help.

It seems incredibly pointless to me, but very common nonetheless; it probably has something to do with the human tendency to group ourselves.
;)
I find this proclivity of political groups to splinter within hilarious. On the extreme Right we have the Randroids vs. the Austrian "sheep", as well as multiple black "sheep" amongst the Austrians themselves, as a mirror image of all the divisions of divisions on the extreme Left, just as an auderve. Highly counterproductive, though as you say it is probably based that human tendency. What makes it hilarious is that enmity within groups can be far greater than between directly opposed groups.

why exactly are you attacking me, personally, for no good reason, may i ask?
He has a tendency to do so from what it seems. I'd recommend not to take it too seriously.


I am proud of America as a changing nation that manages to provide a high level of personal, economic and political freedom to its people.
Although I do admire certain traits in the US, especially pre 20th-century, I consider a lot of its activities nowadays highly disgraceful ; namely it's rapacious foreign policy, and the marriage of big business with State (not that it is alone in this).

He has a tendency to do so from what it seems. I'd recommend not to take it too seriously.


i wasn't going to until i realised it was little more than unprovoked flamebait.... difficult to ignore it then when my character is under attack ;)


ah well, will just remind myself to give the guy less credence in the future.

why exactly are you attacking me, personally, for no good reason, may i ask?
I'm not attacking you, and if it seems like I am, then I am sorry. I just don't want socialists to disappear, and this post (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12167226&postcount=22) was cause for concern. Numerous other posts also show similar tendencies.

i know what i believe in and don't give a flying fuck what you think you little prick.
That's right; I can't make any claims to know better than you, but I can observe.

But flaming isn't the way to go!

Although I do admire certain traits in the US, especially pre 20th-century, I consider a lot of its activities nowadays highly disgraceful ; namely it's rapacious foreign policy, and the marriage of big business with State (not that it is alone in this).
They had all that in the 19th century. The marriage of big business with State always happens in capitalism, even though it is not ideologically supported.

It's a somewhat puzzling concept for me. There have been several threads about the topic recently, but I still apparently fail to understand the basics.

First of, I don't feel I own any country, so whay would I be talking of "my country"? My parents are from two different countries, I grew up in one of them, spent some time in an entirely different country and now live in yet another one.
The country I grew up in changed its borders countless times, even during my lifetime. So which parts of it should I feel are "mine", precisely?
I've never been to most parts of the country I grew up in, let alone the other 3. Nor do I know that majority of their people.
I appreciate the culture of all 4 countries in question, and I like the cuisine of 3 of them.
I've learned lessons from the history of all 4.
I've got friends in all 4 countries, and more besides.
Apart from my nationality, I've got nothing that particularly attaches me to any one of the 4 countries in question. On the contrary, I normally will go to some length to avoid people from 2 of the countries while away.

So why do people feel the need to create a somewhat artificial sense of attachment?

I used to be a nationalist but I have moved past that phase in my life. However, one doesn't have to love their government to love their country. I have no love for the current government of the United States, but I do have a sense of national pride in being an American if only for the rich culture and history of my country.

I find this proclivity of political groups to splinter within hilarious. On the extreme Right we have the Randroids vs. the Austrian "sheep", as well as multiple black "sheep" amongst the Austrians themselves, as a mirror image of all the divisions of divisions on the extreme Left, just as an auderve.

Isn't there also an ancap/more traditional libertarian split? And a consequentialist/natural rights split? And a "we should moderate ourselves for public support"/"libertarian extremist FTW!" split?

Hmm, yes... it does sound somewhat like the extreme Left.

What makes it hilarious is that enmity within groups can be far greater than between directly opposed groups.

Indeed; there are leftist groups which spend at least as much time and energy attacking other leftist groups as they do attacking capitalism.

I am very proud of my great country and its president George W. Bush.

Isn't there also an ancap/more traditional libertarian split? And a consequentialist/natural rights split? And a "we should moderate ourselves for public support"/"libertarian extremist FTW!" split?

Hmm, yes... it does sound somewhat like the extreme Left.
Pretty much. Rand went as far to call anarchocapitalists "right-wing hippies", and disavowed herself from libertarianism altogether (in spite of her beliefs being entirely consistent with it), whereas the anarchocapitalists see minarchism as untenable. We also have the epistemological divide (Austrian vs. Neoliberal economics ; I am not sure if the Left has divergent views on Economics). Rothbard identified the "right-wing opportunists" and "left sectarianist" split within the movement, which he specified was analogous to what occured amongst the Left. He advised strongly against it.

Similar divisions occur in mainstream politics, but I doubt they are anywhere as profound as those in the radical groups ; perhaps that is partly why the mainstream considers us fringe lunatics for the most part. The Tories and Labour in the UK, and Democrats and Republicans in the USA are for all purposes one and the same thing, in spite of some differences.

Indeed; there are leftist groups which spend at least as much time and energy attacking other leftist groups as they do attacking capitalism.
There is a certain utility to it though ; it allows criticism from the inside, and insofar as it isn't destructive, it can allow for arguments to be ameliorated and sharpened in focus.

I'm not attacking you, and if it seems like I am, then I am sorry. I just don't want socialists to disappear, and this post (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12167226&postcount=22) was cause for concern. Numerous other posts also show similar tendencies.

i accept your apology :) have a fluffle and make up :fluffle:

as for what i said in that post... i'm not going anywhere as a socialist. my views may have calmed down a lot but that's from a very, very extreme and odd point of view. which, actually, i still believe in fundamentally but i just don't believe it can work in the short to medium term (www.udcp.org)

i deeply believe in the socialism i support and often swing between (on this site) what is possible to achieve for real IRL in the short term, and what i'd actually like to see happen in the short term.
i don't go out campaigning for things or do much to support the cause, which is something i do regret, but i have little time and/or money as it is, and am not in a job in which i could realistically belong to a union. i am middle class by upbringing and went to a conservatve-leaning private school, but these things - far from making me un-socialist - have turned me against this way of life and way of thinking.


anyway, there... i've defended myself anyway (sometimes you have to defend yourself from your own concience as well...)

however i do still plan to leave this country (back on topic) ;)
and i apologise for getting angry, heh

That's right; I can't make any claims to know better than you, but I can observe.

as i said above, my behavour on these forums is erratic between what i truly believe, what i truly believe to be best in the short term, and what i believe to be realistically possible in the realms of reality in the short term in this country. observing and making sense of that must be hard ;)

The country I live in has some good points but I wouldn't say I am proud of it no matter how many positive things happen in it.
I think those who are proud just want a reason to inflate their egos.