NationStates Jolt Archive

Most people now accept that Mugabe is a dictator, corrupt, and a bad leader.
But what should be done about it, and who should do it?

Do we invade illegally, and risk an Iraq-style deterioation into sectarian violence?
Do we leave it, and hope it sorts itself out?
Do we get the UN to sanction military action (though same risks as above)?

Should Europeans (whose ancestors arguably created the mess with colonialism) bear responsibility for the helping Zimbabweans now? Edit: specifically those (eg. British & French) who colonised large parts of Africa
Can we get aid to the people, without it being stolen by the government?

Should Europeans (whose ancestors arguably created the mess with colonialism) bear responsibility for the helping Zimbabweans now?

My "ancestors" had nothing to do with colonialism.

The question is more "what can be done?"
It's an independent nation. There are plenty of independent nations governed by dictators on the planet this minute. Can we do anything about them?

Most people now accept that Mugabe is a dictator, corrupt, and a bad leader.
But what should be done about it, and who should do it?

Do we invade illegally, and risk an Iraq-style deterioation into sectarian violence?
Do we leave it, and hope it sorts itself out?
Do we get the UN to sanction military action (though same risks as above)?

Should Europeans (whose ancestors arguably created the mess with colonialism) bear responsibility for the helping Zimbabweans now?
Can we get aid to the people, without it being stolen by the government?


Although I hate to say it, considering that this is a non-millitary situation and Mugabe is hardly going to welcome aid to his people there isn't much we can do until he croaks or stops rigging elections. At least in Sudan nobody cares if another army enters the country, in Zimbabwe sending in the UN/US/Europe/African Union could have implications for the rest of Africa

I say we work from the inside to bring the country to it's knees through a combination of black magic:gundge: and tooth decay. Then BURN IT TO THE GROUND.

i would say there are far more immediate fish in need of frying.

darfor for example.
tyrannical economic exploitation by corporatocracy in the niger delta,
that robbs everyone there of even the means of survival while compensating
them nothing.

how about bush, chainy, rumsfield and rove, not neccessarily in that order.
sadam hussain was exicuted for the killing of a few thousand or tens of thousands of civilians in a time when his country was inguaged in open warfare with another nation. and that, at least partialy at the behest of the same u.s. of a. responsible for his removal from power and exicution.

the bush possey has killed between 300,000 and 650,000 civilians, loosing 3,000 of its own troops to do so, not to mention flatening the infrastructure of 3.5 whole nations. and for what? oil/greed/megalomania and 20 guys ripping off 4 airplanes and knocking down 2.5 buildings! (killing in the proccess about the same number of civilians as the number of troops so far killed in the proccess of killing HUNDREDS of thousands of civilians who's only 'crime' was standing between us and the 'blood wine' (i.e. oil).

zimbabwa, iran, north korea? wasn't there once a parable about removing the sliver from someone else's eye when one has a bridge timber stuck in one's own?

=^^=
.../\...

zimbabwa, iran, north korea? wasn't there once a parable about removing the sliver from someone else's eye when one has a bridge timber stuck in one's own?

=^^=
.../\...

Take the log out of your own eye, so you can see more clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

You talk about "we".. Who is "we"? The international community? Your own country? It has become clear that something must be done. But what and by whom is the question.

Take the log out of your own eye, so you can see more clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

this is of course the quote i was refurring to. i like my somewhat more dramatized for the modern simple mind version of it.

having never read, nor been able to, the origeonal greek, i wouldn't make too many bets on a litteral translation of "log" either.

all of which is of course in the nature of a quibble.

while people are being killed and robbed of their means of survival.
those who aren't being murdered outright.
real living human people, like you and i.

=^^=
.../\...

You talk about "we".. Who is "we"? The international community? Your own country? It has become clear that something must be done. But what and by whom is the question.

I talked about "we" precisely to leave open the question of by whom. I couldn't think of the right word to avoid any kind of inference being drawn.

You know what? I really don't care.

Sad, but true.

I talked about "we" precisely to leave open the question of by whom. I couldn't think of the right word to avoid any kind of inference being drawn.

Hmm fair enough. Well what and who is the question.
As for me, I don't know. Something like an invasion would probably fuck the country up even more. I don't really see Mugabe being all too keen on entering talks openly and actually making changes within his country. Also, as Eurasia and Oceana said, he's not too keen on aid from other countries. I'm not too sure what else could be done.

Hmm fair enough. Well what and who is the question.
As for me, I don't know. Something like an invasion would probably fuck the country up even more. I don't really see Mugabe being all too keen on entering talks openly and actually making changes within his country. Also, as Eurasia and Oceana said, he's not too keen on aid from other countries. I'm not too sure what else could be done.

I suppose we just have to accept that some international problems are practically implossible to solve.
Has anyone done much about Cuba in the past 20 years or so?

I suppose we just have to accept that some international problems are practically implossible to solve.
Has anyone done much about Cuba in the past 20 years or so?Because there's basically nothing that needs doing. The US are only whining because their Cuban ruler was toppled. The similarities between Cuba and Iran in this regard are striking. US install a tyrant for selfish economic reasons, tyrant gets chased away, US demonize who replaces their tyrant.

And as for Zimbabwe, I trust that sooner or later Zimbabweans will take matters into their own hands.

You know what? I really don't care.

seconded

It has become clear that something must be done.

Does it really? I agree that Mugabe has been detrimental to his country through economic mismanagement, prohibitive social policies and has effectively become a dictator.
But what is it that you are suggesting that 'we' do? Economic sanctions wouldn't help, and military action would be virtually impossible. Mugabe is extremely popular throughout Africa, a war would be far more difficult there then in Iraq.
And even if democracy was somehow restored to the country Mugabe would probably be elected President again anyway; Readers of the monthly magazine New African voted Mugabe as the third greatest African in a 2004 poll.

The question is more "what can be done?"
It's an independent nation. There are plenty of independent nations governed by dictators on the planet this minute. Can we do anything about them?

yes you can invade and kick them out, just don't do it under the prefix of "freedom" it's insulting and vomit-inducing.

yes you can invade and kick them out, just don't do it under the prefix of "freedom" it's insulting and vomit-inducing.

if you kicked out mugabe, who would you replace him with?

Most people now accept that Mugabe is a dictator, corrupt, and a bad leader.
But what should be done about it, and who should do it?

Has Mugabe invaded any neighbors?

Is he reasonably threatening to do so?

You can't do shit about it, unfortunately. Maybe flood the land with resources so people get happier and kick his ass out, but with all the corruption in Zimbabwe, it's all but assured that few of those resources would end up in the hands of the people and just about all of it would go to the government.

You can't just overthrow Mugabe either. You can't do it CIA-style under cloak and dagger, since the nation descends into chaos and a civil war probably breaks out. You can't do it Saddam-style either because the U.S. would be caught in the middle of yet another civil war, and with Iraq being the unmitigated disaster it is, we don't want Zimbabwe to turn into Iraq. It's bad enough Iraq's a mini-Vietnam.

If we invade Zimbabwe, wither it turns into Sudan or another tinpot dictatorship, and that only happens after turning into Sudan for a while. So no, unfortunately not a whole lot can be done about Zimbabwe.

If anyone invades (EU, NATO, US, you name it), whoever invades will be blamed for the ensuing casualties, fuckup, government, etc.

If no one does anything, there might be a few adverts and a few editorials about how no one is doing anything, but the outcome (however long it takes) will not be blamed on the powers that could have done something.

This is also why nothing will happen in Darfur.

Why take the blame for anything anymore? It's simpler and easier to do nothing.

Your voters aren't going to backlash you if you NEVER invaded anyone.

do nothing....if there is an invasion needed to stop genocide or something it should be done by African countries.....there are many countries as corrupt as Zimbabwe if they are to be changed then it has to be done by the UN and a major overhaul of the UN is in order to get it done(remove the veto).....economic sanctions of any country that defies the UN, no exceptions.....it'll never happen....

There's not a civil war going on. There is a corrupt leading cadre. People are dying in the streets to a level not much worse than other African nations.

This doesn't even the beginnings of merit an invasion. Or anything. At all.

There's not a civil war going on. There is a corrupt leading cadre. People are dying in the streets to a level not much worse than other African nations.

This doesn't even the beginnings of merit an invasion. Or anything. At all.

Even if there were 10,000 people being executed by machete in the street by government troops there, it wouldn't be reason enough.

Because whoever goes in there will be blamed for every little thing that happens, and will be made out to be worse than the original situation.

And once you go in, you're stuck there.

Zimbabwe is not our problem. They have a democracy, sorta. Mugabe can run the country into the ground for all I care, it's none of our concern.

Zimbabwe is not our problem. They have a democracy, sorta. Mugabe can run the country into the ground for all I care, it's none of our concern.

If that's a democracy to you...

I say we work from the inside to bring the country to it's knees through a combination of black magic:gundge: and tooth decay. Then BURN IT TO THE GROUND.
High holy hell, does every person with a postcount below fifty have to use a gun smilie? That's about the fourth or fifth such stupid post I've seen in as many days...

Even if there were 10,000 people being executed by machete in the street by government troops there, it wouldn't be reason enough.
No, actually I do think that that kind of action is the only real reason for proper military action.
Because whoever goes in there will be blamed for every little thing that happens, and will be made out to be worse than the original situation.
Yes, well that always happens with wars, but whether people actually have the beginnings of a point depends totally on why the war is being fought, and what the alternative would be.
And once you go in, you're stuck there.
Not really, after a brief period of rather a lot of violence, it's often more suitable for peacekeepers with more experience in the matter to be involved instead.

And that's something that the UN Forces. will be more involved in, and the cost will be more spread out.

If that's a democracy to you...

Well as an American, democracy with endemic corruption is the only frame of reference I have to work with.

Zimbabwe is not our problem. They have a democracy, sorta. Mugabe can run the country into the ground for all I care, it's none of our concern.
I wouldn't even the beginnings of call Zimbabwe a democracy. They have soldiers in the voting booths who'll break your legs if they see you voting for anyone other than Mugabe and will rip up your ballot if you persist anyway.

I wouldn't even the beginnings of call Zimbabwe a democracy. They have soldiers in the voting booths who'll break your legs if they see you voting for anyone other than Mugabe and will rip up your ballot if you persist anyway.

That's our problem how exactly?

Well as an American, democracy with endemic corruption is the only frame of reference I have to work with.

If you think corruption is endemic here, you obviously haven't traveled abroad.

Mugabe does appear to have popular support in Zimbabwe. As long as you think that matters, you can't invade.

That said, the man's a lunatic. He turned away a shipment of food from Canada because it was genetically modified. The trouble is, all of Canada's food is genetically modified. We had to invent a new type of wheat in order to grow it in our short season. Our beef cattle were all engineered.

Mugabe does appear to have popular support in Zimbabwe. As long as you think that matters, you can't invade.

That said, the man's a lunatic. He turned away a shipment of food from Canada because it was genetically modified. The trouble is, all of Canada's food is genetically modified. We had to invent a new type of wheat in order to grow it in our short season. Our beef cattle were all engineered.

Not to mention the seed grown for canola oil...

That's our problem how exactly?
Where did I say it was?

I honestly couldn't care less until he starts killing masses of his own people, I don't think that it's in much of a worse state than more of Africa, especially the Côte d'Ivoire, which has been ignored despite ethnic cleansing there killing 2 million people in the last few years, and we certainly can't do anything about it.

What there is there is a corrupt ruling cadre. That's not something that sanctions will solve, or military action, or anything.

Where did I say it was?

I honestly couldn't care less until he starts killing masses of his own people, I don't think that it's in much of a worse state than more of Africa, especially the Côte d'Ivoire, which has been ignored despite ethnic cleansing there killing 2 million people in the last few years, and we certainly can't do anything about it.

What there is there is a corrupt ruling cadre. That's not something that sanctions will solve, or military action, or anything.

I think it's best that when some part of the world goes idiot, and starts killing, starving, and abusing its own people, we just seal the place off and drop small arms in there and wait about 100 years for the dust to settle.

I think it's best that when some part of the world goes idiot, and starts killing, starving, and abusing its own people, we just seal the place off and drop small arms in there and wait about 100 years for the dust to settle.
Hahahaha.... no.

No, that's a horrible, horrible idea. I don't want anyone more than the people that really have to die to ever be killed. In any circumstances. Letting everyone kill off anyone that they don't personally like is the exact opposite of my moral stance. It's deplorable.

Hahahaha.... no.

No, that's a horrible, horrible idea. I don't want anyone more than the people that really have to die to ever be killed. In any circumstances. Letting everyone kill off anyone that they don't personally like is the exact opposite of my moral stance. It's deplorable.

It seems to be what the US did with Northern Ireland. We gave arms to the IRA, and arms to the UK military, and let them have at it until everyone got really tired of it.

What should be done about Zimbabwe?

I was thinking Bake Sale. :)

I was thinking Bake Sale. :)

I think that instead of sending our nuclear waste to various European locations (for European waste), or to Yucca Mountain (in the US for US waste), we should pack it onto aircraft and drop it into Zimbabwe.

I think that instead of sending our nuclear waste to various European locations (for European waste), or to Yucca Mountain (in the US for US waste), we should pack it onto aircraft and drop it into Zimbabwe.

That would be closer to frying than baking, methinks. *nod*

That would be closer to frying than baking, methinks. *nod*

You're probably right *wiggles a tentacle*

Not our responsibility.

Though a truly fair election would probably see Mugabe out of power, he still has significant support from much of the population. Until he does something illegal (border raids, seizing of another country’s assets, etc), nobody has a right to interfere in internal politics.

We have gone well beyond what is required in an attempt to feed the starving masses. Mugabe locks up any food aid and laughably tells the people collapsing and dying of starvation they can’t be sure the food is really safe for them to eat because some of it might be genetically modified. Yup, a warehouse full of food, and there are bodies of people who died of starvation in front of it.

Tragic, but nothing we can do about it.

Sanctions only work if the leadership genuinely cares about how it impacts the people.

Nobody has a right to use military intervention. Any attempts at assassination or forcible removal, aside from being illegal, would most likely result in civil war – which is fairly self-defeating if your purpose is to help the people.

There is even less of a right to intervene than Darfur, which is a more compelling case, but we still cannot do anything about it. The only ones who could do anything would be the neighboring countries, and all they could do is close the borders – which would be too costly and could be considered immoral to lock in the refugees.

Bottom line – not our problem and nothing we could do about it even if we wanted.

"I dont fuck with Africa because people are starving to death over there and its just not baller."

- My nigga said that, and no wiser words have ever been spoken.

We had a wasted opportunity in 2001. Mugabe took a trip to Brussels, where gay rights activist Peter Tatchell was waiting to try a citizens arrest on him. Mugabe's bodyguards were busy beating up Tatchell and he was wide open for a bullet. There have also been other missed opportunities, such as his trip to Rome for the Pope's funeral.

Now I know a lot of people will argue that an assassination would cause serious instability. But it's worth a try, particularly as it's so cheap.

What should be done about Zimbabwe?

Change the name, for staters. I for one think that 'Rhodesia' was a far better name. In fact, rename all the African countries. Things were so much simpler when the names were easy to pronounce like 'Dutch East Africa.' Ah, those were the days.

Most people now accept that Mugabe is a dictator, corrupt, and a bad leader.

"now accept"? Where've you been for the last quarter-century?

Change the name, for staters. I for one think that 'Rhodesia' was a far better name. In fact, rename all the African countries. Things were so much simpler when the names were easy to pronounce like 'Dutch East Africa.' Ah, those were the days.
Perhaps we* should just rename the world (outside of America ofcourse) "Out Thaarr".

*By we I mean the Russians

Perhaps we* should just rename the world (outside of America ofcourse) "Out Thaarr".

*By we I mean the Russians

Good idea, that way we don't have to keep track of every one of those 200-odd suckers. But then again, no one who matters cares about any country except America, so it's pretty much a moot point anyway.

Honest answer? I ain't BOVERED! I.e., nothing.

Indict Mugabe on human rights charges.
Have Mossad kidnap him and bring him to World Court.
Hire the best, most fearsome American lawyers to make mincemeat out of this guy.

Why Mossad? Since they're ninjas, and have experience in these matters. Back in the fifties, they kidnapped Adolf Eichmann. True, kidnapping a world leader is harder, but Mossad are, as I said, ninjas.

I would hope that the USA does not in any way get involved. Let the rest of the international community deal with it.

Strongly White 'U.N. nations' soldier's should go in there and takeover because the African nations are generally ineffictive at dealing with problems.

Strongly White 'U.N. nations' soldier's should go in there and takeover because the African nations are generally ineffictive at dealing with problems.

And the UN isn't?

Should Europeans (whose ancestors arguably created the mess with colonialism) bear responsibility for the helping Zimbabweans now?

they were better off when you were there

colonialism was wrong is some places, it wasn't wrong in zimbabwe

you should go back

I would hope that the USA does not in any way get involved. Let the rest of the international community deal with it.


they're dealing with it right now

this is how they deal with thing

Nothing. We should do nothing. They threw out the productive farmers and they are now starving because they gave all the land to incompetent people who have no idea how to farm. They are responsible for their own situation, so we should do nothing. They don't want european help, they demonstrated that by kicking out the competent white farmers. Let them starve or survive by their own actions.

I talked about "we" precisely to leave open the question of by whom. I couldn't think of the right word to avoid any kind of inference being drawn.
One might be the right word to use in this case.
And the UN isn't?
Touche.
But they are better.

Regretably there isn't much that can be done. Sanctions have never worked and Mugabe and ZANU leadership have more than enough hard currency stashed abroad.

The really sad part is that Smith told the world what would happen and the UK and the USA not only ignored him, but actually sabotaged him. Vorster in the RSA greased the floor as the UK and USA pulled the rug.

One man... One Vote... Once...

I went to Rhodesia to see the ruins of Zimbabwe. Now I could go to Zimbabwe to see the ruins of Rhodesia.

The racist anti-white Zimbabweans got themselves into this mess. Let them get their racist asses out of it! However, we should give charity to the whites who had their lands seized from them or help them with military aid to retake their land.