NationStates Jolt Archive

Okai, this will be my first and my last thread about religion.

This is directed to Christians more than any other religions & atheists & etc. etc.


I view most of you odd. Is there such a big gap between a Catholic Christian, an Orthodox Christian & all the other Christian smallish cults?

Some while ago, I was in my classroom and we had a chat with one of our teacher. We were at the topic 'Can someone come down from Heaven' and a girl said 'No, we all know that no-one came down from Heaven because we haven't seen anyone falling down from the sky'... and she was serious about it. That precious moment I still cherish deeply, human stupidity.. and we're High School Seniors.

Now, I'm an Orthodox. Apparently we get another religious education around here, because I haven't yet confronted with what other users & trolls post in their religious topics.

For example, does any Catholic believes that Heaven is in the sky and Hell is in the center of the Earth and not some state of mind? Does any Catholic believes that when you die your good deeds will be counted, as well as your bad deeds, and if you got 51% good deeds you'll go to heaven? Does any Catholic believes that God is in the sky, and watching us? And most important, does any Catholic believes that God made everything in 6 days?

For those of you not yet familiar with Orthodox theology, we believe that based on the amount of good deeds & bad deeds you'll go somewhere, as in, your spirit will find either peace or discontent. But a distinction must be made between someone who half of his life did good deeds and someone who dedicated all his life in doing good deeds. That's why we have several 'stages' of Heaven and Hell. I forgot how many of them were, but somewhere around 7, if I remember. But maybe we don't know, I forgot.

Oh, and not to mention, we know that God did not made everything in 6 days. At the days when this all was said & written people weren't as smart as we are today. Try telling a rudimentary human that God made everything in the course of hundreds of hundreds of million of years, if that human knew only of today & yesterday. So, they had the excellent idea of naming geological eras as days.

This is the education that Orthodoxians receive. From what I see, it's completely different from most Catholics. Oh, those catholics that have heard of orthodoxians.

Presbyterian:

Heaven and hell are physical places, but not in physical relation to this earth, for lack of a better phrase - other dimensions, in the old Sci-fi sense.

Okai, this will be my first and my last thread about religion.


YOu lie you made two

This is the education that Orthodoxians receive. From what I see, it's completely different from most Catholics. Oh, those catholics that have heard of orthodoxians.

orthodoxians? which of the national orthodox churches are you a member of?


(and by and large, protestants have almost no familiarity with patristic christianity, are nearly theologically illiterate, and have very little foundation in history or classical thought...catholics have more of it, but generally it's tied up in the political ambitions of the roman church and is rather slanted)

Okai, this will be my first and my last thread about religion
This is directed to Christians more than any other religions & atheists & etc. etc.

I view most of you odd. Is there such a big gap between a Catholic Christian, an Orthodox Christian & all the other Christian smallish cults?. Cults? rather... different. I think of them as Denominations... different facets of the same Religion. and while you view us as "Odd", I see it as... Different.

Some while ago, I was in my classroom and we had a chat with one of our teacher. We were at the topic 'Can someone come down from Heaven' and a girl said 'No, we all know that no-one came down from Heaven because we haven't seen anyone falling down from the sky'... and she was serious about it. That precious moment I still cherish deeply, human stupidity.. and we're High School Seniors.the term "FALLEN ANGEL" can lead to the thought that Heaven is above Earth and Hell and "Being cast down into the ring of fire" can also lead one to think that Hell is below Earth and Heaven. also you have hymns and Passages that referre to the kingdom of Heaven being up, verses where people raise their eyes/hands/voices to the heavens, so such ideas as far as location goes isn't that far fetched. oh and the term "Fallen Angel" does mean that people leave Heaven... also there are numerous reports of near death experiences where people claim to have entered Heaven. I will niether confirm nor deny their validity... only that the claims are there.

Now, I'm an Orthodox. Apparently we get another religious education around here, because I haven't yet confronted with what other users & trolls post in their religious topics.

For example, does any Catholic believes that Heaven is in the sky and Hell is in the center of the Earth and not some state of mind? Does any Catholic believes that when you die your good deeds will be counted, as well as your bad deeds, and if you got 51% good deeds you'll go to heaven? Does any Catholic believes that God is in the sky, and watching us? And most important, does any Catholic believes that God made everything in 6 days?

For those of you not yet familiar with Orthodox theology, we believe that based on the amount of good deeds & bad deeds you'll go somewhere, as in, your spirit will find either peace or discontent. But a distinction must be made between someone who half of his life did good deeds and someone who dedicated all his life in doing good deeds. That's why we have several 'stages' of Heaven and Hell. I forgot how many of them were, but somewhere around 7, if I remember. But maybe we don't know, I forgot.

Oh, and not to mention, we know that God did not made everything in 6 days. At the days when this all was said & written people weren't as smart as we are today. Try telling a rudimentary human that God made everything in the course of hundreds of hundreds of million of years, if that human knew only of today & yesterday. So, they had the excellent idea of naming geological eras as days.

This is the education that Orthodoxians receive. From what I see, it's completely different from most Catholics. Oh, those catholics that have heard of orthodoxians.

I had a Baptist/Protestant upbringing.

On the location of Heaven and Hell
Heaven and Hell were not mentioned by Location. only as destinations. if one is going to a fabulous place when he/she is called, asking where is pointless and meaningless.

also, if one is being sent by God to the Ring of Fire, one again, doesn't ask "well where is that exactly"... for other things will be of more importance.

For me, Heaven and Hell are destinations where the journey (your life on Earth) is more important than the locations of the destination.

on Judgement:
I was taught that Good deeds alone does not grant salvation. unfortunatly, faith alone doesn't cut it either. but both Faith and deeds are needed. A person can live a good life, but if he/she didn't accept Jesus and God as their Savior and Lord, then their name won't be in the book. and if he/she proclaimed their faith, but did not lead a life striving as Jesus taught, then again, their name won't be in the Great Book.

On the Great Eye in the Sky:
I was taught that God is everywhere, not just above us, but behind us, below us, all around. he's in the tree you passed on the way home, he walks beside you, and he's even there when you think you're all alone. But of all the places he is now... the one place he is happiest, is in the hearts and minds of the Faithful... the one place a person can keep him out of.

Life the Universe and Everything in just six days.
no. it took god as long as it took him to make the world. I beleive that to whomever he showed, they interpreted it as six days, but God didn't infer, state, or allude to any definate time frame.

On the Great Eye in the Sky

Please, leave Alan Parson's Project out of the contest...

I had a Baptist/Protestant upbringing...

on Judgement:
I was taught that Good deeds alone does not grant salvation. unfortunatly, faith alone doesn't cut it either. but both Faith and deeds are needed. A person can live a good life, but if he/she didn't accept Jesus and God as their Savior and Lord, then their name won't be in the book. and if he/she proclaimed their faith, but did not lead a life striving as Jesus taught, then again, their name won't be in the Great Book.

And you had a Protestant upbringing?

We are saved by grace. That grace enables us to come to faith in Christ. And as a result of that faith, we do good works because we love our God. You are not saved by anything but grace, but faith is the necessary result of that grace, and works are the necessary result of that faith.

For example, does any Catholic believes that Heaven is in the sky and Hell is in the center of the Earth and not some state of mind?


no this is not current catholic teaching.


Does any Catholic believes that when you die your good deeds will be counted, as well as your bad deeds, and if you got 51% good deeds you'll go to heaven?

no. in general a catholic believes that you need to be baptised, and receive the sacraments. you need to follow the commandments and the teachings of jesus. if you stray and commit a sin, you must confess your sins in order to have them removed from your record (so to speak) this is done in a formal setting with a priest. when you die you are judged based on your current sin record. some sins get you sent right to hell (murder for example) some get you sent to purgatory. a spotless record gets you into heaven. a terrific record of good deeds cannot offset a very serious sin.


Does any Catholic believes that God is in the sky, and watching us? And most important, does any Catholic believes that God made everything in 6 days?

no. the catholic church believes in a form of intelligent design with god as the intelligence.



For those of you not yet familiar with Orthodox theology, we believe that based on the amount of good deeds & bad deeds you'll go somewhere, as in, your spirit will find either peace or discontent. But a distinction must be made between someone who half of his life did good deeds and someone who dedicated all his life in doing good deeds. That's why we have several 'stages' of Heaven and Hell. I forgot how many of them were, but somewhere around 7, if I remember. But maybe we don't know, I forgot.

catholics dont believe in a segregated heaven.

On Location of Heaven and Hell
Bieng a Christian with rather Jewish tendancies I would have to say, does it matter? Is that not a bridge to cross when you get to it. The only point of knowing that life is not the end, is to remind you that money isn't everything, and that there is no need to fear death, as long as you don't fear yourself.

On Judgement
Both faith and deeds are needed...,
Well if you see my signature you'll realize that I believe that to labour is to pray. That is to say that faith and actions are one and the same.


Big Eye in Sky
I agree that the Lord is everywhere. I agree with JuNii's answer here and send JuNii my blessing.

On the Six days

There are a few thoughts I've heard on this one. The one I sympathize with is that on the first day on mount sinia it was revealed to Moses that..., and on the second day on mount Sinia it was revealed to Moses that ..., ect.

I believe heaven and hell to be spiritual places.

God watches everything

We are saved by grace and our lives are changed by that, Jesus sacrifice is sufficient to cover all sins, and His forgiveness is offered to all.

I have no idea about the "six days" other than what we can observe and understand to have happened on Earth using our own scientific intelligence.

[/theology]

Okai, this will be my first and my last thread about religion.

This is directed to Christians more than any other religions & atheists & etc. etc.


I view most of you odd. Is there such a big gap between a Catholic Christian, an Orthodox Christian & all the other Christian smallish cults?

<b> Some while ago, I was in my classroom and we had a chat with one of our teacher. We were at the topic 'Can someone come down from Heaven' and a girl said 'No, we all know that no-one came down from Heaven because we haven't seen anyone falling down from the sky'... and she was serious about it. That precious moment I still cherish deeply, human stupidity.. and we're High School Seniors. </b>

Now, I'm an Orthodox. Apparently we get another religious education around here, because I haven't yet confronted with what other users & trolls post in their religious topics.

For example, does any Catholic believes that Heaven is in the sky and Hell is in the center of the Earth and not some state of mind? Does any Catholic believes that when you die your good deeds will be counted, as well as your bad deeds, and if you got 51% good deeds you'll go to heaven? Does any Catholic believes that God is in the sky, and watching us? And most important, does any Catholic believes that God made everything in 6 days?

For those of you not yet familiar with Orthodox theology, we believe that based on the amount of good deeds & bad deeds you'll go somewhere, as in, your spirit will find either peace or discontent. But a distinction must be made between someone who half of his life did good deeds and someone who dedicated all his life in doing good deeds. That's why we have several 'stages' of Heaven and Hell. <b> I forgot how many of them were, but somewhere around 7, if I remember. But maybe we don't know, I forgot </b> .

Oh, and not to mention, we know that God did not made everything in 6 days. At the days when this all was said & written people weren't as smart as we are today. Try telling a rudimentary human that God made everything in the course of hundreds of hundreds of million of years, if that human knew only of today & yesterday. So, they had the excellent idea of naming geological eras as days.

This is the education that Orthodoxians receive. From what I see, it's completely different from most Catholics. Oh, those catholics that have heard of orthodoxians.

Wait, you don't even know how many levels of heaven there are in your own religion, yet you're calling others stupid. Sounds like you haven't put much more thought into religion than this girl has put into people falling out of the sky.

Please, leave Alan Parson's Project out of the contest...it was either that or "the Great Peeping Tom Theory" :p

And you had a Protestant upbringing?Protestant/Baptist. a nice mixture that would have Phelps foaming at the mouth...

We are saved by grace. That grace enables us to come to faith in Christ. And as a result of that faith, we do good works because we love our God. You are not saved by anything but grace, but faith is the necessary result of that grace, and works are the necessary result of that faith.[/QUOTE]:confused:
faith is the necessary result of that graceGrace was given by Jesus to all peoples of the Earth. However one needs to accepts Jesus as their savior and let God into their heart to be let into the kingdom of heaven. and that requires Faith.

and yes, Faith leads one to do Good Deeds, but as in the Talent Parable (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025:%2014-30;&version=31;), one must use the Talents God Greaced each of us with.
Also, James 2:14-26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=2&version=31) warns against Faith without Deed.

and yes, Faith leads one to do Good Deeds, but as in the Talent Parable (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025:%2014-30;&version=31;), one must use the Talents God Greaced each of us with.
Also, James 2:14-26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=2&version=31) warns against Faith without Deed.

I think that James means that saying you have faith really doesn't mean much if you don't have enough faith to act on it. It's the difference between faith and belief.

:confused:

Can you clarify how I confused you?

Grace was given by Jesus to all peoples of the Earth. However one needs to accepts Jesus as their savior and let God into their heart to be let into the kingdom of heaven. and that requires Faith.

Well, there are different meanings to grace, just as there are different meaning to good works and a lot of other words.

The grace of salvation is given only to the elect: Jesus died only for the elect, those God chose. And I challenge you to give me any Bible verse refuting that. You cannot do it.

and yes, Faith leads one to do Good Deeds, but as in the Talent Parable (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025:%2014-30;&version=31;), one must use the Talents God Greaced each of us with.

God gives everyone, even the heathen, talents. Michael Jackson is a very good singer (or was), but he doesn't use his talent for the glory of God. Pray for his repentence.

Also, James 2:14-26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=2&version=31) warns against Faith without Deed.

What does James mean when he says that? He says that we are justified by our works, too. Is he contradicting Paul? No, he means that the unbeliever will see our good works and realize that therer is a difference and want it too. Our message is seen to be truth through our actions. Plus, if we really have faith, we will want to obey. So, if we aren't obeying, there will be no faith. Works are the result of faith, not something beside it, and certainly not the basis for salvation.

I think that James means that saying you have faith really doesn't mean much if you don't have enough faith to act on it. It's the difference between faith and belief.

that's exactly what James is saying. Faith without deeds.

Faith/Belief alone won't save a person... and neither will Deeds without Faith and Belief.

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/6772/shitbq6.png (http://imageshack.us)

I think that James means that saying you have faith really doesn't mean much if you don't have enough faith to act on it. It's the difference between faith and belief.

Have you heard of the three stages of faith? They are the three things required for a true faith. I can't remember the proper Latin names, but I learned them with this illustration.

Step 1. There are people who believe the world is round. (Notia, maybe?)

Step 2. I assent or agree that the world is round. (Assensus?)

Step 3. I'm on a boat to sail around the world. (Feducia?)

Can you clarify how I confused you?

Well, there are different meanings to grace, just as there are different meaning to good works and a lot of other words.

The grace of salvation is given only to the elect: Jesus died only for the elect, those God chose. And I challenge you to give me any Bible verse refuting that. You cannot do it.Then answer me this. How does one become "one of the elect" without Faith? (you said the Grace results in Faith. not that Grace is the result of Faith.)

God gives everyone, even the heathen, talents. Michael Jackson is a very good singer (or was), but he doesn't use his talent for the glory of God. Pray for his repentence.and as the parable also showed the master giving all his servants Talents, and the one servant didn't use his talent wisely.

What does James mean when he says that? He says that we are justified by our works, too. Is he contradicting Paul? No, he means that the unbeliever will see our good works and realize that therer is a difference and want it too. Our message is seen to be truth through our actions. Plus, if we really have faith, we will want to obey. So, if we aren't obeying, there will be no faith. Works are the result of faith, not something beside it, and certainly not the basis for salvation.James is warning against Faith without deed as well as deeds without faith.

both are needed. How can one see our good words as God's will if we don't share our faith in God? How can one see our Faith in God if we don't do the deeds worthy of Him?

Then answer me this. How does one become "one of the elect" without Faith? (you said the Grace results in Faith. not that Grace is the result of Faith.)

God chose the elect before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1).

and as the parable also showed the master giving all his servants Talents, and the one servant didn't use his talent wisely.

We are all God's servants. Some are rebellious, though.

James is warning against Faith without deed as well as deeds without faith.

both are needed. How can one see our good words as God's will if we don't share our faith in God? How can one see our Faith in God if we don't do the deeds worthy of Him?

Both are necessary, but they do not save. What does Paul say? "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is a gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10.

God chose the elect before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1).and since Paul mentioned this to a letter to the Saints in Turkey, Referring to those same Saints in Turkey... are you saying that only those of Turkish blood are saved?

We are all God's servants. Some are rebellious, though.and how does that excuse the misuse of what God gave us?

Both are necessary, but they do not save. What does Paul say? "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is a gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10.
which doesn't refute what James said in James 2:14-26.

we seem to agreement. Faith alone won't save you. Deeds alone won't save you. You need Both.

We went through this the last time. I really don't know how you come up with some of the things which you think I'm saying.

and since Paul mentioned this to a letter to the Saints in Turkey, Referring to those same Saints in Turkey... are you saying that only those of Turkish blood are saved?

No, it says that only those God chose are saved and that no one can do anything to become elect because it is purely God's choice. There is nothing about you or me or anyone else that makes God choose that person and look over another.

and how does that excuse the misuse of what God gave us?

I never said it excused it.

which doesn't refute what James said in James 2:14-26.

I nevere said it did.

we seem to agreement. Faith alone won't save you. Deeds alone won't save you. You need Both.

You need both, yes. But they are not what save you. Grace saves you.

We went through this the last time. I really don't know how you come up with some of the things which you think I'm saying.then let's break it down.

Your first post to me.
And you had a Protestant upbringing?

We are saved by grace. That grace enables us to come to faith in Christ. And as a result of that faith, we do good works because we love our God. You are not saved by anything but grace, but faith is the necessary result of that grace, and works are the necessary result of that faith.To save space, I will reply to the various parts using the same color fonts.
this says you believe that the Grace enables one to have Faith in Christ. not that Faith in Christ gives us the Saving Grace. here you assume or imply that Faith will automatically lead to Good deeds. Not so. which you say in the Red Font, comes before Faith and Deeds.and you end by saying, as a result of Grace, you THEN get Faith and only then your Deeds are aknowledged.

I tried to tell you it's the other way around. you gain your Faith, and by Faith and Deeds, you accept the Saving Grace.

Your second post.
Can you clarify how I confused you?

Well, there are different meanings to grace, just as there are different meaning to good works and a lot of other words.

The grace of salvation is given only to the elect: Jesus died only for the elect, those God chose. And I challenge you to give me any Bible verse refuting that. You cannot do it.

God gives everyone, even the heathen, talents. Michael Jackson is a very good singer (or was), but he doesn't use his talent for the glory of God. Pray for his repentence.

What does James mean when he says that? He says that we are justified by our works, too. Is he contradicting Paul? No, he means that the unbeliever will see our good works and realize that therer is a difference and want it too. Our message is seen to be truth through our actions. Plus, if we really have faith, we will want to obey. So, if we aren't obeying, there will be no faith. Works are the result of faith, not something beside it, and certainly not the basis for salvation.now here, what Jesus has made available to all men, you are narrowing it down to a select few. Indicating Faith and Deed for anyone not of the "elect" to be declared null and void. never mind that the "US" Paul uses could mean those of Faith and those who accept Jesus and Those who follow God's word.
Your Third post
God chose the elect before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1).

We are all God's servants. Some are rebellious, though.

Both are necessary, but they do not save. What does Paul say? "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is a gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10.and you point to a letter Paul writes to the Ephesus (modern day Turkey) when Paul says "us" in reference to the blessings and Grace, who is he referring to? the Saints of Turkey (and thus only those of Turkish blood are the "elect"), the Saints, thus only those of religious posistion are saved? Only those born into the Religion? (thus denying anyone who converts to Christianity) or all the Faithful, those who found God and Jesus and have placed their faith, trust and love in God and Jesus? (anyone with Faith in God and Jesus, weither or not lost the faith and regained it, or came into the Faith during the course of their life.)


No, it says that only those God chose are saved and that no one can do anything to become elect because it is purely God's choice. There is nothing about you or me or anyone else that makes God choose that person and look over another.so why share one's Faith with others and spread the word of God if it's all predetermined anyway? if it is as you say,
"There is nothing about you or me or anyone else that makes God choose that person and look over another." why would a person convert to the Faith if you just said that if he is not given the Saving Grace, he's not saved.We are saved by grace.
You are not saved by anything but grace,
The grace of salvation is given only to the elect: Jesus died only for the elect, those God chose.
with your two posts, you shut almost everyone out. especially when you use a letter Paul wrote to the Saints of Ephesus (not to the people, the Saints) as your proof as to who the Elected are.


I never said it excused it.then why argue my point about needing both Faith and Deed to be saved? unless you disagree with that and are convinced that "ONLY THE ELECTED" that God has chosen before the beginning of all things on Earth...

I never said it did.that is true, you said you needed Grace inorder to have Faith to do the Deeds.

you are forgetting that it's supposed to be Faith and deeds to receive the Grace that the Blood Of Jesus made available to ALL men to receive God's Grace. in order to recieve the Grace of God, you must 1) Want it. 2) accept Jesus and 3) Follow the word of God... aka, deeds.


You need both, yes. But they are not what save you. Grace saves you.and the Saving Grace is given to you when you accept Jesus and God (Faith) and strive to do their work (deeds).

To JuNii

First, the offer of salvation is made to all. But man is sinful and cannot/will not accept that offer. So God, in his grace, changes the hearts of some so that they will have faith and that this faith will be displayed through works.

The persons whom God chooses are not limited to any bloodline, nationality, economic status, gender, race, or anything else.

The five points of Calvinism (which ought really to be called the five points of the Reformed traiditon)
Total Depravity: man is in all areas affected by sin and wants nothing to do with God and is therefore unable to accept the offere of salvation.
Unconditional Election: There is no condition on which God chooses these people whom He changes. It is His choice, not based on anything but Himself.
Limited Atonement: Christ died for the elect only. This must be. If Christ's death pays for sins, it cannot be for everyone, or else everyone would go to heaven, which Scripture denies. It confirms that those with faith in Christ will have their sins paid for. And if the elect are the only ones who will have faith, then Christ died only for them. This does not mean that the offer is made only to them.
Irresistable Grace: There is no one whose heart is changed who will not come to Christ. God changes their hearts so that they see how good the offer of salvation is and how dreadful their sin is, and they cannot help but accept the offer.
Perseverence/Preservation of the Saints: The elect will persevere because God will preserve them. They will continue doing good works through eternity and though they may fall into grievous sin in this life, they will never fully of finally fall from salvation.

I believe these are clearly supported by Scripture.

To JuNii

First, the offer of salvation is made to all. But man is sinful and cannot/will not accept that offer. So God, in his grace, changes the hearts of some so that they will have faith and that this faith will be displayed through works. this is arguable. "God changes the Hearts of some" why some, why not all? which ones? why doesn't God just change all the hearts of men if he can do so with some?

The answer, Free Will. it was by Free Will that the First Sin was committed. and it's by Free Will that a person can obtain salvation... mearly by having Faith and asking for it.

some, like Abraham, were faithful. and through Abraham and other Prophets, God used them to spread the word. Opening more hearts to God. Jesus, was God's final Sacrifice. the one to wash away all sins to those who seek redemption and the one to douse the sacrifical Flames that were once needed. there is no "Elite" or selected, only the faithful. and with Faith and Deeds, comes the Saving Grace of Jesus.

The persons whom God chooses are not limited to any bloodline, nationality, economic status, gender, race, or anything else. but it is limited to those who hold Faith and do God's work.

The five points of Calvinism (which ought really to be called the five points of the Reformed traiditon)
Total Depravity: man is in all areas affected by sin and wants nothing to do with God and is therefore unable to accept the offere of salvation.
Unconditional Election: There is no condition on which God chooses these people whom He changes. It is His choice, not based on anything but Himself.
Limited Atonement: Christ died for the elect only. This must be. If Christ's death pays for sins, it cannot be for everyone, or else everyone would go to heaven, which Scripture denies. It confirms that those with faith in Christ will have their sins paid for. And if the elect are the only ones who will have faith, then Christ died only for them. This does not mean that the offer is made only to them.
Irresistable Grace: There is no one whose heart is changed who will not come to Christ. God changes their hearts so that they see how good the offer of salvation is and how dreadful their sin is, and they cannot help but accept the offer.
Perseverence/Preservation of the Saints: The elect will persevere because God will preserve them. They will continue doing good works through eternity and though they may fall into grievous sin in this life, they will never fully of finally fall from salvation.

I believe these are clearly supported by Scripture.
Ok, please support those points with Scripture.

and you still did not define "the Elect" you say what it's not, but you still have to say what defines them to be "the Elect" since you seem to disagree that it's those who follow God and accepted him and Jesus into their hearts.

this is arguable. "God changes the Hearts of some" why some, why not all? which ones? why doesn't God just change all the hearts of men if he can do so with some?

The question is not "Why doesn't God save everybody?"
It's "Why does God save anybody?"

The answer, Free Will. it was by Free Will that the First Sin was committed. and it's by Free Will that a person can obtain salvation... mearly by having Faith and asking for it.

No, you don't have free will. Your will, what you desire, is bound to sin. That's why you need a new heart. But you do have free agency, the ability to choose to do what you want without interference.

some, like Abraham, were faithful. and through Abraham and other Prophets, God used them to spread the word. Opening more hearts to God. Jesus, was God's final Sacrifice. the one to wash away all sins to those who seek redemption and the one to douse the sacrifical Flames that were once needed. there is no "Elite" or selected, only the faithful. and with Faith and Deeds, comes the Saving Grace of Jesus.

I agree, except with the order. The faithful are the faithful because they are the elect. And with the saving grace of Jesus Christ comes faith and deeds.

but it is limited to those who hold Faith and do God's work.

No, those who hold faith and do God's work are those whom God has chosen.

Ok, please support those points with Scripture.

Read the whole Bible. Romans 8,9 as well as Ephesians 1 make it clear that God is sovereign, even in individual salvation. It's the little verses here and there that when put togehter explain how.

and you still did not define "the Elect" you say what it's not, but you still have to say what defines them to be "the Elect" since you seem to disagree that it's those who follow God and accepted him and Jesus into their hearts.

The elect are those whom God has chosen. And it is they who come to faith and perform good works because God's grace changed their hearts so that they could accept the offer of salvation.

I have to go. When I come back tomorrow, I will have some specific verses for you. If you see me, though, remind me, because I may forget to post them.

The question is not "Why doesn't God save everybody?"
It's "Why does God save anybody?"because God forgives all those who ask for forgiveness. the key words are ASK FOR FORGIVENESS. ;)

No, you don't have free will. Your will, what you desire, is bound to sin. That's why you need a new heart. But you do have free agency, the ability to choose to do what you want without interference.and this is where our teachings are different...
you make it seem that when a person sins, it's not their fault since they do not CHOOSE to sin, but are forced to by their desire.

I was taught that all people sin, we may want to do what's right, but temptations are there to lead us astray. it all comes down to two choices, sin, or don't. we choose our paths as we weigh the sins and the choices we make. Steal and get rich? work hard and stay faithful? Some of our choices are right, but some are not. when we make those wrong choices, weither by design or my mistake, if we want forgiveness, then we ask God for forgiveness.

I agree, except with the order. The faithful are the faithful because they are the elect. And with the saving grace of Jesus Christ comes faith and deeds.so you agree then that there is no Elected. only those who are faithful since all you disagree with is the order of Faith and Grace... :D Don't worry, I know that probably not what you meant.

No, those who hold faith and do God's work are those whom God has chosen.so a person without the saving Grace can not find the faith to follow Jesus... and the proof is because they don't have the faith given by the Saving Grace... that's circular reasoning at best. an excuse at worse. "It's not my fault he won't listen to what I have to say about God and the Word... he didn't recieve the Saving Grace... He's not one of the Elected!"

Read the whole Bible. Romans 8,9 as well as Ephesians 1 make it clear that God is sovereign, even in individual salvation. It's the little verses here and there that when put togehter explain how.the argument isn't about God's Sovereign, but the fact that faith only comes from his grace. your Five Points of Calvinism is what I'm asking you to prove.

so where's all those little verses that explain these...
The five points of Calvinism (which ought really to be called the five points of the Reformed traiditon)
Total Depravity: man is in all areas affected by sin and wants nothing to do with God and is therefore unable to accept the offere of salvation.
Unconditional Election: There is no condition on which God chooses these people whom He changes. It is His choice, not based on anything but Himself.
Limited Atonement: Christ died for the elect only. This must be. If Christ's death pays for sins, it cannot be for everyone, or else everyone would go to heaven, which Scripture denies. It confirms that those with faith in Christ will have their sins paid for. And if the elect are the only ones who will have faith, then Christ died only for them. This does not mean that the offer is made only to them.
Irresistable Grace: There is no one whose heart is changed who will not come to Christ. God changes their hearts so that they see how good the offer of salvation is and how dreadful their sin is, and they cannot help but accept the offer.
Perseverence/Preservation of the Saints: The elect will persevere because God will preserve them. They will continue doing good works through eternity and though they may fall into grievous sin in this life, they will never fully of finally fall from salvation.


The elect are those whom God has chosen. And it is they who come to faith and perform good works because God's grace changed their hearts so that they could accept the offer of salvation.so as far as you know, the only way to know who is "elected" is the presence of Faith and Deed. so in other words, you do nothing to share God's word with the unbeleivers since God is doing all the changing himself.

makes the GREAT COMMISSION (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2028:%2016-20;&version=31;)given by Jesus rather wasted, doesn't it?

I have to go. When I come back tomorrow, I will have some specific verses for you. If you see me, though, remind me, because I may forget to post them.will do... unless I forget myself. :p

The five points of Calvinism (which ought really to be called the five points of the Reformed traiditon)

other reformed churches diametrically oppose calvinism. many of the reformers (anabaptists, quakers, menonites, etc) didn't actually write anything, like the calvinists did. they were ok with just using the bible.

Sorry it took me so long to respond.

I put your arguments down and then I repsonded, color-coding what I'm responding to so that my response is coherent.

because God forgives all those who ask for forgiveness. the key words are ASK FOR FORGIVENESS. ;)

and this is where our teachings are different...
you make it seem that when a person sins, it's not their fault since they do not CHOOSE to sin, but are forced to by their desire.

I was taught that all people sin, we may want to do what's right, but temptations are there to lead us astray. it all comes down to two choices, sin, or don't. we choose our paths as we weigh the sins and the choices we make. Steal and get rich? work hard and stay faithful? Some of our choices are right, but some are not. when we make those wrong choices, weither by design or my mistake, if we want forgiveness, then we ask God for forgiveness.

so a person without the saving Grace can not find the faith to follow Jesus... and the proof is because they don't have the faith given by the Saving Grace... that's circular reasoning at best. an excuse at worse. "It's not my fault he won't listen to what I have to say about God and the Word... he didn't recieve the Saving Grace... He's not one of the Elected!"

so as far as you know, the only way to know who is "elected" is the presence of Faith and Deed. so in other words, you do nothing to share God's word with the unbeleivers since God is doing all the changing himself.

Makes the GREAT COMMISSION (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2028:%2016-20;&version=31;)given by Jesus rather wasted, doesn't it?

Man only wants evil, so he's going to choose evil. He wants it and that's what he chooses. Good is still there. He sees it, but he rejects it in favor of evil.

Your view is the one which says that we don't have a choice: "We want to do good, but we just can't help it"

So the only way we can choose good is to have our nature changed. So God, not willing that all should perish, changes the hearts of some. His grace (unmerited favor) changes the heart. When our hearts are changed, we now desire to pursue God. There are still remenants of the old man, but we desire to choose God.

But how can we choose what we don't know about. If we don't know there is a God, how can we choose Him? So, we have to be told. God Himself can tell us (as with Paul) or He can send someone to us, as He did with the Great Commission.

Then, when the person hears the Word, he comes to faith, repents and asks for forgiveness and God justifies him, forgives him, and adopts him.

And that person is so greatful to God, that he wants to obey Him, so He follows the commands God gives in His Word. And this obedience is the sign that he has repented and has faith.

So, we are not at fault for someone not repenting: s/he chose not to. But we are at fault if we don't go, go and preach heresy, go and do wrong.

the argument isn't about God's Sovereign, but the fact that faith only comes from his grace. your Five Points of Calvinism is what I'm asking you to prove.

so where's all those little verses that explain these...

The five points of Calvinism (which ought really to be called the five points of the Reformed traiditon)
Total Depravity: man is in all areas affected by sin and wants nothing to do with God and is therefore unable to accept the offere of salvation.
Unconditional Election: There is no condition on which God chooses these people whom He changes. It is His choice, not based on anything but Himself.
Limited Atonement: Christ died for the elect only. This must be. If Christ's death pays for sins, it cannot be for everyone, or else everyone would go to heaven, which Scripture denies. It confirms that those with faith in Christ will have their sins paid for. And if the elect are the only ones who will have faith, then Christ died only for them. This does not mean that the offer is made only to them.
Irresistable Grace: There is no one whose heart is changed who will not come to Christ. God changes their hearts so that they see how good the offer of salvation is and how dreadful their sin is, and they cannot help but accept the offer.
Perseverence/Preservation of the Saints: The elect will persevere because God will preserve them. They will continue doing good works through eternity and though they may fall into grievous sin in this life, they will never fully of finally fall from salvation.

Actually, it is about God's sovereignty, because what you are saying is that God is limited by your actions and that He is unable to do things He wants to do, because mere Man can impede Him.

Anyway,

Total Depravity:
Genesis 2:17 and Ephesians 2:1 - Man eats of the fruit and dies. Man is spiritually dead: not sick, not ill, not dying, not on the death bed. He's in the grave dead. How can something which is dead act? It can't unless it is raised. So how can Man who is spiritually dead act spiritually? He can't unless he is raised.
John 8:34 - Man is a slave to sin. This does not mean that Man is unwilling to sin. Remember, Paul calls the Christian a slave to Christ.
Genesis 6:5, Isaiah 64:6, and Romans 3:10-12 - All deeds Man do are evil, even our righteous acts.
Every part (total) of our being is affected by sin (depravity)

Unconditional Election:
Romans 9 - God chooses. The younger will serve the older because God said so, before they were born, without looking at their future actions. God chooses to have mercy on whom He wills and He says to Pharoh that He will harden whom He wills. And then Paul asks "Is there fault with God?" If the view I am proposing was not the Biblical one, there would be no need for this question. If God chose those whom He saw would come, then there is no thought of injustice because it seems just to us: God is choosing based on what we do. But only if God's choice is not based on us, but wholly on His own will does it make sense for Paul to ask that question. And what is His answer? "Who are you to speak back to God? ...Has not the potter no right over the clay..."
The salvation depends on our repentance, but God's choosing (election) whom He makes able to repent depends on Himself, not on us (unconditional).

Limited Atonement
John 3:16 - only those who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved, so the atonement (the whole reason Christ died: to save people from sin) is limited to believers.
Romans 8:30 - those who are predestined are called, those called are justified, those justified are glorified. Only those who are called are saved.
The payment for sins (atonement) is for the elect (only). But this does not mean that the offer is not unlimited. Anyone may come who wants to, but only the elect want to come.

Irresistable Grace:
Remeber the totally depraved person is totally hostile to God. He cannot come to God. So how does God finish what He sets out to accomplish, which we know will happen?
John 3:1-15 - Man must be born again. He is spiritually dead, but God gives Him new life.
John 6:44 - Those whom God gives new life will come because He will draw them to Himself.

Perseverence/Preservation of the Saints:
2 Peter 3:9 - All, not all humanity, but all the elect, will come to eternal life.
Romans 8:30 - those who are, not some of those who are

other reformed churches diametrically oppose calvinism. many of the reformers (anabaptists, quakers, menonites, etc) didn't actually write anything, like the calvinists did. they were ok with just using the bible.

The chief Reformers (Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, Knox, etc.) were all Calvinists as the word is usually defined today.

The Anabaptist, Quakers, Menonites, Amish, etc. were not a large part of the Reformation movement. They were there, but they weren't major players.

So, the Reformers were called Evangelicals (more often than Protestants) for a while. Then it became clear that there were also groups breaking away which were not changing their theologies, like the Anglicans. So the term Protestant came to mean anyone who was not Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox.

Then, there was a split in the Evangelical group. Arminius rejected the Reformers definition of predestination, but kept most else. So, Reformed Christians are Evangelicals (and therefore also Protestants) who agree with the chief Reformers' definition of predestination and how it works. Arminians (not Armenians) are Evangelicals (and also therefore Protestants) who disagree with the chief Reformers definition of predestination.

People like to call Reformed Christians Calvinists because they like the idea of "always reforming" and consider themselves "reformed past such silly notions as predestination." But, properly, Calvinism is a subdivision of Reformed Christians who believe in consubstantiation and that you must have assurance of salvation to be saved.

Episcopalian by name only. I have thought about Roman Catholicism as well, but am currently reevaluating my beliefs.


I view most of you odd. Is there such a big gap between a Catholic Christian, an Orthodox Christian & all the other Christian smallish cults?

Nice to know. Is there something wrong with your eyes, that you view most of us "odd"(-ly)? Certainly there are differences. You would do well to learn to respect them. And what exactly is a smallish Christian cult? Without a definition, you are thus labelling all Christian sects who are not Orthodox or Catholic "cults." By doing so, you only further your own ignorance. Learn to use terms appropriately.

Some while ago, I was in my classroom and we had a chat with one of our teacher. We were at the topic 'Can someone come down from Heaven' and a girl said 'No, we all know that no-one came down from Heaven because we haven't seen anyone falling down from the sky'... and she was serious about it. That precious moment I still cherish deeply, human stupidity.. and we're High School Seniors.

Since when is misunderstanding, or belief, stupidity? If she believes Heaven is in the sky, she is not far from the truth. Her response may have seemed silly, but consider that Heaven is rather a transcendence beyond this world, effected by going "up" (ref. Elijah being taken up on a cloud into Heaven), and to many this would be logically represented by having travelled through the sky. Therefore, for someone to "come down from Heaven" (down a de facto verification that Heaven is UP), he would have to come through the sky, or perceived as such.

Now, I'm an Orthodox. Apparently we get another religious education around here, because I haven't yet confronted with what other users & trolls post in their religious topics.

Welcome to the world of learning. Hopefully this exposure has served or will serve to help you evaluate your religious principles, and either strengthen them or reconsider them in light of reconciliation of dogmatic differences.

For example, does any Catholic believe that Heaven is in the sky and Hell is in the center of the Earth and not some state of mind? Does any Catholic believe that when you die your good deeds will be counted, as well as your bad deeds, and if you got 51% good deeds you'll go to heaven? Does any Catholic believe that God is in the sky, and watching us? And most important, does any Catholic believe that God made everything in 6 days?

First, I had to remove all the esses from "believe[s]." "Does any Catholic believe..." not "believes." As to your first question: Probably not. Again, Heaven and Hell are not physical places. Heaven is a spiritual destination "above" the Earth and Hell is considered "below." Think of it as the Earth being the mitigating location, the average of the two extremes of Heaven and Hell.
Second question: Catholics do not believe that good deeds on their own get you into Heaven. Frankly, you could do any number of good deeds but if you do not accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your Saviour, you will not enter eternal salvation. However, this does not mean that a person like Hitler is going to Heaven. No, because accepting Christ entails much more than lip service--it is accepting a way of life according to His word and example.
Third question: Yes. God does watch us--though not from the sky, again he sees us in a way we do not see ourselves, and we cannot comprehend. That's the idea of omniscience and omnipotence.
Fourth question: I'm not sure about the Papal stance on this, but I do.

For those of you not yet familiar with Orthodox theology, we believe that based on the amount of good deeds & bad deeds you'll go somewhere, as in, your spirit will find either peace or discontent. But a distinction must be made between someone who half of his life did good deeds and someone who dedicated all his life in doing good deeds. That's why we have several 'stages' of Heaven and Hell. I forgot how many of them were, but somewhere around 7, if I remember. But maybe we don't know, I forgot.

So in Orthodox belief, where does Christ fit in? Or is this system of deeds (Mormonism, anyone?) only applicable after one has accepted Christ? But, I see not real problem here, Dante, a Catholic, did write on the "stages" of Hell, and such a divided system of stages is not all that uncommon in many religious beliefs, which to me says that, at superficial reconciliation, perhaps it is more truth than not?

Oh, and not to mention, we know that God did not made everything in 6 days. At the days when this all was said & written people weren't as smart as we are today. Try telling a rudimentary human that God made everything in the course of hundreds of hundreds of million of years, if that human knew only of today & yesterday. So, they had the excellent idea of naming geological eras as days.

A "rudimentary" human? And I suppose you consider yourself somewhat more advanced? By all accounts, Moses does not seem a "rudimentary" human. Neither Muhammad, Jesus, or Buddha. Or the ancient Egyptians. Why would God have occasion to mislead humanity by writing "days," if he meant something else? Surely he is capable of conveying His thought so that the Bible would instead have read "And God created the Earth over such an expanse of time, time in that many Ages would have passed..." etc., or something to that effect. But, he chose to use "days." Why? How presumptuous of us to assign a different meaning to what was actually written. Or do you seek to compromise God's word, with claims that perhaps you know more than He? I see no reason not to believe that he meant "days" and not "geological eras."

This is the education that Orthodoxians receive. From what I see, it's completely different from most Catholics. Oh, those catholics that have heard of orthodoxians.

Of course it's a different education. Now, you understand, or have learned, a little more. Rather than label things as inherently "wrong" or "stupid," consider the other point of view and seek to reconcile the differences. After all, what you believe people mean is almost always a misunderstanding if you don't stop to consider the other side. But, ignorance is bliss, as the saying goes.

On the Six days

There are a few thoughts I've heard on this one. The one I sympathize with is that on the first day on mount sinia it was revealed to Moses that..., and on the second day on mount Sinia it was revealed to Moses that ..., ect.

I had not heard this interpretation. It has tremendous appeal however, as this would not preclude either evolution (or intelligent evolution) over millions of years, or the so-called literal six-day creation. It has the added bonus of not presuming to know more than God. Again, tremendous appeal, and one that I shall look into.

[QUOTE=JuNii;12165454]
on Judgement:
I was taught that Good deeds alone does not grant salvation. unfortunatly, faith alone doesn't cut it either. but both Faith and deeds are needed. A person can live a good life, but if he/she didn't accept Jesus and God as their Savior and Lord, then their name won't be in the book. and if he/she proclaimed their faith, but did not lead a life striving as Jesus taught, then again, their name won't be in the Great Book.

Um - "Whoso believeth in me and is baptized shall be saved." Jesus

So, you saying he is wrong? He does not have as many conditions as you do...

on Judgement:
I was taught that Good deeds alone does not grant salvation. unfortunatly, faith alone doesn't cut it either. but both Faith and deeds are needed. A person can live a good life, but if he/she didn't accept Jesus and God as their Savior and Lord, then their name won't be in the book. and if he/she proclaimed their faith, but did not lead a life striving as Jesus taught, then again, their name won't be in the Great Book.

Um - "Whoso believeth in me and is baptized shall be saved." Jesus

So, you saying he is wrong? He does not have as many conditions as you do...

One piece of the puzzle. Sometimes you gotta take everything he says and put it together to get the puzzle. Yes, you have to believe in Jesus to be saved, but you have to live a life according to His word, as well. Act on that belief. It's not a "oh yeah, I believe in Jesus, so I'm gonna do what I want, cause I got a free ticket to Heaven," it's "I believe in Jesus, accept him as my saviour, and understand that His example and teaching are to be a guide for my life."

I had not heard this interpretation. It has tremendous appeal however, as this would not preclude either evolution (or intelligent evolution) over millions of years, or the so-called literal six-day creation. It has the added bonus of not presuming to know more than God. Again, tremendous appeal, and one that I shall look into.

Problem: for evolution to work, there must be death, right? And why does the Bible say there is death? Because of sin. And when was that sin? After Creation. And there must have been an Adam and Eve, because that's why there is sin. And there must be sin, becuase that's what we're saved from. And if there's no need for us to be saved, there's no need for Jesus. And if there's no need for Jesus, there's no Christianity.

Problem: for evolution to work, there must be death, right? And why does the Bible say there is death? Because of sin. And when was that sin? After Creation. And there must have been an Adam and Eve, because that's why there is sin. And there must be sin, becuase that's what we're saved from. And if there's no need for us to be saved, there's no need for Jesus. And if there's no need for Jesus, there's no Christianity.

Well, true, true. But, humans are the only creation that sin, and yet animals still die. Jesus didn't come for the lemmings. And from an evolutionary standpoint, humans are [currently] the final step in the evolutionary process, which does not preclude the existence of other creatures before humanity.

(Note: I don't consider myself an evolutionist, I'm just trying to cover all the bases. Devil's Advocate, you know. ;))

Well, true, true. But, humans are the only creation that sin, and yet animals still die. Jesus didn't come for the lemmings. And from an evolutionary standpoint, humans are [currently] the final step in the evolutionary process, which does not preclude the existence of other creatures before humanity.

But God put us in charge of the earth as stewards. We are all in sin because Adam sinned. Animals and the earth itself do not sin (they are not moral creatures) but they do fall under the curse of sin. Paul says that the earth is groaning with anticipation for the coming of the Lord.

(Note: I don't consider myself an evolutionist, I'm just trying to cover all the bases. Devil's Advocate, you know. ;))

That's what you should do: check the view from the other side as well and see where that thinking leads you.

But God put us in charge of the earth as stewards. We are all in sin because Adam sinned. Animals and the earth itself do not sin (they are not moral creatures) but they do fall under the curse of sin. Paul says that the earth is groaning with anticipation for the coming of the Lord.



That's what you should do: check the view from the other side as well and see where that thinking leads you.

Indeed, and quite interesting. What I do not know, and would like to see, is the grounds that "intelligent (Biblical) evolutionists" base their arguments on.

Indeed, and quite interesting. What I do not know, and would like to see, is the grounds that "intelligent (Biblical) evolutionists" base their arguments on.

I don't see any thing in Scripture to support their claims, but I see a lot to refute it. Most quote Galileo and say that Scripture cannot be wrong, so if we see science contradicting Scripture, we must be misunderstanding Scripture (which is code for "Scripture is outdated."). They forget that they could also be misunderstanding science.

I personally don't see why evolution and creation can't live together. God started the soup and let it do it's own thing, and inserted a soul along the way.

I personally don't see why evolution and creation can't live together. God started the soup and let it do it's own thing, and inserted a soul along the way.

Yes, but scriptural creation and evolution are incompatible.

I personally don't see why evolution and creation can't live together. God started the soup and let it do it's own thing, and inserted a soul along the way.

To echo NoRepublic, creationism and evolution can co-exist. But Christianity and evolution cannot.

orthodoxians? which of the national orthodox churches are you a member of?


(and by and large, protestants have almost no familiarity with patristic christianity, are nearly theologically illiterate, and have very little foundation in history or classical thought...catholics have more of it, but generally it's tied up in the political ambitions of the roman church and is rather slanted)


Haha. No way. Nathan?

This just boils down to the literal versus figurative bullshit again. I take the creation story as figurative, as science proves that the world has evolved. I cannot, in good faith, ignore science because that blinds me, and God would not approve.

Thus, the scriptural story of creation has to be figurative, to me.

But, if you believe it is not in any way figurative, then I understand how one would argue that they are not compatible.

This just boils down to the literal versus figurative bullshit again. I take the creation story as figurative, as science proves that the world has evolved. I cannot, in good faith, ignore science because that blinds me, and God would not approve.

Science proves? Wait, hold on. Science has not proven anything: there are still far to many holes. And you miss the part about evolution destroying Christianity. Granted, that's not the only possible god (theoretically) but...

Thus, the scriptural story of creation has to be figurative, to me.

To you?
What about to me?

It doesn't matter what we think. All that matters is what is when we are determining what is correct and what is incorrect.

But, if you believe it is not in any way figurative, then I understand how one would argue that they are not compatible.

But do you see the problem(s) if it is figurative. By making it figurative, you're cutting the ground from beneath your feet.

Science proves? Wait, hold on. Science has not proven anything: there are still far to many holes. And you miss the part about evolution destroying Christianity. Granted, that's not the only possible god (theoretically) but...

To you?
What about to me?

It doesn't matter what we think. All that matters is what is when we are determining what is correct and what is incorrect.



But do you see the problem(s) if it is figurative. By making it figurative, you're cutting the ground from beneath your feet.

I'm so not even following you, I was just expressing my beliefs. I'll give this thread more serious thought and argument when I feel up to the task, but I'm rather tired (as I did not sleep very well last night) and classes started up today.

But, after I get a good nap in and give it some thought, I will come back and try to articulate my thoughts more eloquently. :D

But do you see the problem(s) if it is figurative. By making it figurative, you're cutting the ground from beneath your feet.

Metaphorical interpretations of Genesis date back in Christianity to as far as Augustine, and are well supported in the Jewish tradition. Given that Jesus' teachings were often in the form of parables, I don't see why literal interpretation is either necessary or advantageous to understanding the Bible.

Problem: for evolution to work, there must be death, right? And why does the Bible say there is death? Because of sin. And when was that sin? After Creation. And there must have been an Adam and Eve, because that's why there is sin. And there must be sin, becuase that's what we're saved from. And if there's no need for us to be saved, there's no need for Jesus. And if there's no need for Jesus, there's no Christianity.
Why is it we need to be saved from sin? Why can't God just let us have our lols here then set us up with eternal happiness when we die, regardless of what we believe?
Metaphorical interpretations of Genesis date back in Christianity to as far as Augustine, and are well supported in the Jewish tradition. Given that Jesus' teachings were often in the form of parables, I don't see why literal interpretation is either necessary or advantageous to understanding the Bible.

Doesn't Jesus say something along the lines of "You should only pray alone in your room in the dark"? I always find it hilarious to think of people who intepret the Bible litererally doing that.

Metaphorical interpretations of Genesis date back in Christianity to as far as Augustine, and are well supported in the Jewish tradition. Given that Jesus' teachings were often in the form of parables, I don't see why literal interpretation is either necessary or advantageous to understanding the Bible.

What is the very basis of Christianity?

That Jesus Christ came as man and God to die for the sins of many (whether that many includes all humanity or just the elect is debatable).

Why is there sin? That question is answered in Genesis. Without a historical interpretation (intrepreting it as history) of Genesis, you loose the explanation for how sin came to be.

Problems with an evlutionist metaphorical interpretation:
Adam came from the dust and Eve from him, not from other animals.
Man is created in God's image.
Man is made to live with the breath of God. He is not already living and simply "made spiritually aware"
God made Man upright (Ecclesiastes 7:29) not low and uncomprehendign as the animals
God made of one blood all nations of Man (Acts 17:26)

Darwin himself said:
"The evolution of man from lower forms of life was in itself a new and startling fact, and one that broke up the old theology. I and my contemporaries, however, accepted it as fact. The first and obvious result of this experience was that we were compelled to regard the Biblical story of the Fall as not historic ... If there is no historic Fall, what becomes of the redemption, the salvation through Christ?"

The Old Testament geneologies are all traced back to Adam.

Jesus and Paul both refer to Adam as a true person who is responsible for the spiritual death of the world.
Romans 5:14; 1 Corinthians 15:22,45; 1 Timothy 2:13

And Jesus always began His parables with "It is like.." "It is as..." and explained them afterwards. We don't see that with Genesis.

Why is it we need to be saved from sin? Why can't God just let us have our lols here then set us up with eternal happiness when we die, regardless of what we believe?

He is just. And sin earns the penalty of death. He must give it to you. Unless there can be someone else to pay the penalty. That someone is Jesus.

But, if you don't want Jesus, God will give you what you earned: death.

What is the very basis of Christianity?
[QUOTE]Darwin himself said:
"The evolution of man from lower forms of life was in itself a new and startling fact, and one that broke up the old theology. I and my contemporaries, however, accepted it as fact. The first and obvious result of this experience was that we were compelled to regard the Biblical story of the Fall as not historic ... If there is no historic Fall, what becomes of the redemption, the salvation through Christ?"

The problem is, that's Darwin's opinion and not his theory. Firstly, the Fall of Man is not necessarily a physical, historical event in the sense we think of it; our spiritual fall from grace is only loosely related to our bodies in our mortality. Evolution doesn't "disprove" God anymore than neuroscience "disproves" the soul, or any other discipline "disproves" any spiritual concept; they deal specifically with the physical world and how it works, and nothing more.

This universe is created by God but does not embody the transcendental spiritual aspects that God has endowed all humanity with. God is immanent in his creation, but not part of it. Possibly, if you believe that the Garden of Eden was a physical place rather than a spiritual one, then you're going to run in to some problems. However, even that can be reconciled with evolution if analyzed in a more archetypal form.

The Old Testament geneologies are all traced back to Adam.

Yes, and if you interpret it as either metaphorical, spiritual, or as an actual geneology with some additional spiritual characteristics, it isn't a problem.

Jesus and Paul both refer to Adam as a true person who is responsible for the spiritual death of the world.

Romans 5:14; 1 Corinthians 15:22,45; 1 Timothy 2:13

Emphasis added. Note that it is spiritual death, not physical; human biological death is a product of that spiritual death, but it is not spiritual death in and of itself. Were that the case, it would mean that the human body and soul are the same thing, which makes no sense and contradicts the spiritual nature of mankind. Thus, you can interpret Adam as being the first human soul created by God; evolutionary theory neither precludes a soul nor makes it any less likely that one exists.

Or, Adam may have been the first modern human, and at that point God created a soul for him and Eve. Or it's entirely possible that the soul "evolved", with God causing it to develop gradually until it had reached the level he desired.

And Jesus always began His parables with "It is like.." "It is as..." and explained them afterwards. We don't see that with Genesis.

The point is that Judaism, which Jesus was extremely knowledgeable in, tends to emphasize metaphorical interpretation and exegesis of the Biblical texts. He was teaching in a form similar to that used by the Rabbinical authorities of his time because of his experience and vast knowledge (obviously, given that he was God) of Jewish theology.

[QUOTE=Chietuste;12187451]The problem is, that's Darwin's opinion and not his theory. Firstly, the Fall of Man is not necessarily a physical, historical event in the sense we think of it; our spiritual fall from grace is only loosely related to our bodies in our mortality. Evolution doesn't "disprove" God anymore than neuroscience "disproves" the soul, or any other discipline "disproves" any spiritual concept; they deal specifically with the physical world and how it works, and nothing more.

Physical death is the symptom of spiritual death.

This universe is created by God but does not embody the transcendental spiritual aspects that God has endowed all humanity with. God is immanent in his creation, but not part of it. Possibly, if you believe that the Garden of Eden was a physical place rather than a spiritual one, then you're going to run in to some problems. However, even that can be reconciled with evolution if analyzed in a more archetypal form.

Evolution is not against a god (though many evolutionists are); it is against the God of Biblical Christianity.

Yes, and if you interpret it as either metaphorical, spiritual, or as an actual geneology with some additional spiritual characteristics, it isn't a problem.

They're speaking of physical persons.

Emphasis added. Note that it is spiritual death, not physical; human biological death is a product of that spiritual death, but it is not spiritual death in and of itself. Were that the case, it would mean that the human body and soul are the same thing, which makes no sense and contradicts the spiritual nature of mankind. Thus, you can interpret Adam as being the first human soul created by God; evolutionary theory neither precludes a soul nor makes it any less likely that one exists.

But, you yourself say that physical death is a product of spiritual death. Without spiritual death, there can be no physical death. Which means no death for Man before the Fall. And there would need to be for evolution. And remember: God made everything good. So, that means no disasters or other stuff that would prompt a need for evolution. If you have everything you need, and you're getting it the way you are, why change?

Or, Adam may have been the first modern human, and at that point God created a soul for him and Eve. Or it's entirely possible that the soul "evolved", with God causing it to develop gradually until it had reached the level he desired.

No, God created Adam from the dust and Eve from his rib. If they had truly evolved, there would have been other humans (evolution of species, not individuals) and that creates problems, because all humanity is under the curse of sin because of Adam. And that only works if He is the corporate head.

And God breathed the soul into him.

The point is that Judaism, which Jesus was extremely knowledgeable in, tends to emphasize metaphorical interpretation and exegesis of the Biblical texts. He was teaching in a form similar to that used by the Rabbinical authorities of his time because of his experience and vast knowledge (obviously, given that he was God) of Jewish theology.

So some sources say.

Physical death is the symptom of spiritual death. Physical death is a symptom of metabolism failure.

Evolution is not against a god (though many evolutionists are); it is against the God of Biblical Christianity.No, it isn't. Ask Mr. Ratzinger.

They're speaking of physical persons.Or dynasties.


But, you yourself say that physical death is a product of spiritual death. Without spiritual death, there can be no physical death. Which means no death for Man before the Fall. And there would need to be for evolution. And remember: God made everything good. So, that means no disasters or other stuff that would prompt a need for evolution. If you have everything you need, and you're getting it the way you are, why change?Because change is not driven by necessity.

No, God created Adam from the dust and Eve from his rib. If they had truly evolved, there would have been other humans (evolution of species, not individuals) and that creates problems, because all humanity is under the curse of sin because of Adam. And that only works if He is the corporate head.The Bible does not say, that Adam (as an individual) was the first human.

And God breathed the soul into him.That's the meaning of spirit.

So some sources say.Of course Jews tend to emphasize metaphorical interpretation. What else could they do with a borrowed story?

1) "I tell you the truth this day: you will be with me in paradise."
2) "I tell you the truth: this day you will be with me in paradise."

The meanings are subtly different but which is correct?
The Greek original does not include punctuation, and so, like many bits of the bible, it is slightly open to interpretation (this is the most striking example I am aware of). Version 1 allows for the idea of Purgatory, version 2 does not.
We don't know.

The important thing is, Jesus died to save us (I am fully aware that that sounds slightly cheesy, but it's true). By comparison, these small differences are insignificant.

Sorry it took me so long to respond.

I put your arguments down and then I repsonded, color-coding what I'm responding to so that my response is coherent.Replying the same way.

Man only wants evil, so he's going to choose evil. He wants it and that's what he chooses. Good is still there. He sees it, but he rejects it in favor of evil. so you are saying that there is no Corruptor, no Devil, Satan, or any force that is bent on corrupting man. no Lucifer, no Fallen Angel, it's all man's desire to do evil.

even tho in Genesis 3, you have the serpent who tempted Eve,
the devil talks to God, Job 1
the Devil tempts Jesus, Matthew 4

and if man only wants evil, why then did an entire city repent when Jonah gave them the warning about them displeasing God? If Evil is what men are going to choose, then, by your statement, there is no good deed outside of the lord's will.


Your view is the one which says that we don't have a choice: "We want to do good, but we just can't help it"no, the view I presented is that man sins. there is no perfect man outside of Jesus, but we strive to follow his teachings, however, we will stumble. your viewpoint is that there is NO CHOICE.
Man only wants evil, so he's going to choose evil. He wants it and that's what he chooses. Good is still there. He sees it, but he rejects it in favor of evil.

No, you don't have free will. Your will, what you desire, is bound to sin. That's why you need a new heart. But you do have free agency, the ability to choose to do what you want without interference.


and other past posts of yours indicate that man does not CHOOSE to follow God, but has his heart changed BEFORE they follow god. as is also illustrated in...

So the only way we can choose good is to have our nature changed. So God, not willing that all should perish, changes the hearts of some. His grace (unmerited favor) changes the heart. When our hearts are changed, we now desire to pursue God. There are still remenants of the old man, but we desire to choose God. so as you say, God only changes SOME HEARTS then that changed heart will lead us to follow God.. so you are saying that God is a Discriminating entity that will only want some people, so what makes you think that your heart was changed and not that you are being lead astry by a man who only wants you to listen to him and not God?

after all, according to you, faith in God does not come until your heart is changed, and your heart will only be changed if you are one of the selected people. Everyone else rots.

and if GOD is not willing for all to perish, why not SAVE ALL? why only some?

But how can we choose what we don't know about. If we don't know there is a God, how can we choose Him? So, we have to be told. God Himself can tell us (as with Paul) or He can send someone to us, as He did with the Great Commission.and once told of God's word, then that person will find the faith and then recieve the Grace. Not as you say, they have their hearts changed then they recieve the Grace, search out the faith.

Then, when the person hears the Word, he comes to faith, repents and asks for forgiveness and God justifies him, forgives him, and adopts him.which is what I said. he finds the Faith then recieves the Saving Grace when he accepts God and God then forgives and accepts him.

And that person is so greatful to God, that he wants to obey Him, so He follows the commands God gives in His Word. And this obedience is the sign that he has repented and has faith.the Faith that you just said in your previous paragraph, he comes to before God accepts and adopts him. which is what I said all along, the sinner finds his faith, repents and accepts God and is given the saving grace.

So, we are not at fault for someone not repenting: s/he chose not to. But we are at fault if we don't go, go and preach heresy, go and do wrong.And that is why we witness to others, to bring the Word to them and to have them find God and gain his Grace. We are the agents to bring the faith to others, to witness the word of God to them. God doesn't change their hearts unless they want it changed. there is no Elected that was selected at the making of all things, everyone is Elected and able to recieve the blessings but they must first accept God as their savior and have him in their hearts.

Actually, it is about God's sovereignty, because what you are saying is that God is limited by your actions and that He is unable to do things He wants to do, because mere Man can impede Him.God is only "Limitied" because he chooses to limit himself. He won't go where he is not wanted, he won't force himself on an unbeliever, nor will he force a faithful to stay.

Anyway,

Total Depravity:
Genesis 2:17 and Ephesians 2:1 - Man eats of the fruit and dies. Man is spiritually dead: not sick, not ill, not dying, not on the death bed. He's in the grave dead. How can something which is dead act? It can't unless it is raised. So how can Man who is spiritually dead act spiritually? He can't unless he is raised.yet, after eating of the fruit, God still cared for Adam and Eve to clothed them, he made plans to wash the sins away by stating that the decendent of Eve will ground his heel into the serpent's head.
Ephesians 2:4-5.
4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. US, not the elected, not the select or the few, but all of us.
Ephesians 2: 8-10
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.by grace THROUGH faith, faith has to be there to recieve the saving Grace.

and the rest of Ephesians 2 talks about how we were once foriegners and are now accepted as brothers in God's Household. meaning that we were not elected, or selected at the beginning of time, but are welcomed as we find the faith and recieve the Grace.

John 8:34 - Man is a slave to sin. This does not mean that Man is unwilling to sin. Remember, Paul calls the Christian a slave to Christ.and how do we choose to free ourselves from sin? by accepting Christ and asking God for forgiveness for our sins. a smoker is a slave to his cigerette, a junkie is a slave to his drugs, a workaholic is a slave to his job... and we can choose to free ourselves and like anything we want, we have to work for it.

Genesis 6:5, Isaiah 64:6, and Romans 3:10-12 - All deeds Man do are evil, even our righteous acts.
Every part (total) of our being is affected by sin (depravity)
so why was Noah saved? if ALL deeds man does is evil, even our rightous acts, then there is no Good. a man who helps the poor, if not a christian is doing an evil deed according to you and your interpretation.

and as for Isaiah, keep reading. Chapter 65 talks about judgement, and mercy. Chapter 66 talks about Judgement and hope.

As for Romans 3... did you read the verse before it?
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.and this puts romans 3:10-12 into a different light.

All those verses show is that man does sin, but not that he DOESN'T want anything to do with God. only that man, in general, is easily tempted and thus… sins.

[B]Unlimited Atonement:
Romans 9 - God chooses. The younger will serve the older because God said so, before they were born, without looking at their future actions. God chooses to have mercy on whom He wills and He says to Pharoh that He will harden whom He wills. And then Paul asks "Is there fault with God?" If the view I am proposing was not the Biblical one, there would be no need for this question. If God chose those whom He saw would come, then there is no thought of injustice because it seems just to us: God is choosing based on what we do. But only if God's choice is not based on us, but wholly on His own will does it make sense for Paul to ask that question. And what is His answer? "Who are you to speak back to God? ...Has not the potter no right over the clay..."
The salvation depends on our repentance, but God's choosing (election) whom He makes able to repent depends on Himself, not on us (unconditional). Two separate interpretations can be derived from Romans 9. One being that God choose his people, the other being that even tho one’s blood is “righteous”, it doesn’t mean you are already saved.

Take Romans 9:30-32
30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[m]

Also, God showed his favor to one son, or one nation before, and he also withdrew that favor when they turned away from God. So the unlimited anointment isn’t unlimited after all.

Limited Atonement
John 3:16 - only those who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved, so the atonement (the whole reason Christ died: to save people from sin) is limited to believers. never argued otherwise, I said that the saving grace and the blood of Christ is available to all, but to receive it, one has to have FAITH. You said they were saved by Grace first then they will receive the Faith.
Romans 8:30 - those who are predestined are called, those called are justified, those justified are glorified. Only those who are called are saved.
The payment for sins (atonement) is for the elect (only). But this does not mean that the offer is not unlimited. Anyone may come who wants to, but only the elect want to come. not what you were arguing, you were arguing that the Saving Grace is the only way to obtain the Faith, and ergo, the deeds done plus salvation. And that the Saving Grace is only given to the elected. Now you’re saying anyone can obtain the faith and now receive the saving Grace.

I show you supporting that only those with the saving Grace will receive salvation in Post 22 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12165903&postcount=22)

And you show no difference between the Unlimited Atonement and Limited Atonement.

Irresistable Grace:
Remeber the totally depraved person is totally hostile to God. He cannot come to God. So how does God finish what He sets out to accomplish, which we know will happen?
John 3:1-15 - Man must be born again. He is spiritually dead, but God gives Him new life. and that is a referral to Baptism. One has to Choose to be Baptised. To choose to be Baptised is to allow God into your Heart and accept Him and Jesus as your Lord and Savior. That requires FAITH. Which so far, you’ve changed from needing the Grace and the “Change of Heart” in order to get the Faith to having Faith first, then changing your heart (willingly and openly) to receive the Grace which is what I’ve been saying from the start.
John 6:44 - Those whom God gives new life will come because He will draw them to Himself.
you’ve admitted so far that Faith is required before acceptance, and that the change occurs when one is Reborn, which happens after one has obtained faith and accepted God as their lord and Jesus as their savior. This so far does not show that the God choose his elected before the making of all things.

All it shows is that God will accept you (into the elected, if you will) when you show that you are willing to do his will.

Perseverence/Preservation of the Saints:
2 Peter 3:9 - All, not all humanity, but all the elect, will come to eternal life.
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.EVERYONE. So why only change some hearts when this verse says everyone? Because he changes those hearts that opened up to him first. And no where does it say only the elect. Only those who asked for forgiveness, has faith in God and Jesus, received the Grace, and done His will, will receive the reward of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Romans 8:30 - those who are, not some of those who are
Let’s include the previous verses… shall we?
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j] who[k] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. for those who love him, not predestined, but all who love him and called according to his purpose. Not selected before the making of all things.
[29] God Forknew those would be the firstborn among many brothers… so there’s a lot of others saved that are not going to be considered the “Firstborn” so more than those who you “say were selected” will be saved thus it’s not the elected only that are saved.
[30] he ALSO called, which indicates that there are those he saved and will be accepted into the kingdom of heaven who were not “elected”. So far this only proves that some will be held higher than others… makes sense since Moses sits at God’s side, a position that I know I won’t be afforded, and His Prophets and Disciples will be held higher than the followers.

Still doesn’t support your original claim of the “elected” being the ONLY one’s saved.

To echo NoRepublic, creationism and evolution can co-exist. But Christianity and evolution cannot.wha... I am a Christian and I believe in Evolution as "How" God created the world.

Science proves? Wait, hold on. Science has not proven anything: there are still far to many holes. And you miss the part about evolution destroying Christianity. Granted, that's not the only possible god (theoretically) but...how does evolution destroy Christianity?



To you?
What about to me?
It doesn't matter what we think. All that matters is what is when we are determining what is correct and what is incorrect.dunno, do you think God created the world in 144 hours?

But do you see the problem(s) if it is figurative. By making it figurative, you're cutting the ground from beneath your feet.but Jesus taught people using figurative speech, the parables. the bible offers examples as to how to live life, it's not a literal set of instructions.

Physical death is the symptom of spiritual death. and since no one is shown living over 200 years, does that mean that no one is living a spiritual life?

Evolution is not against a god (though many evolutionists are); it is against the God of Biblical Christianity.NO IT ISN'T. Evolution does not disprove God's exsistance, neither does it confirm God's exsistance. Knowing how a Cake is made does not disprove the baker who made the cake.

He is just. And sin earns the penalty of death. He must give it to you. Unless there can be someone else to pay the penalty. That someone is Jesus.

But, if you don't want Jesus, God will give you what you earned: death.which is a far cry from your original argument, infact, you're parelleling my original point on salvation. the one you argued against.

Problem: for evolution to work, there must be death, right? And why does the Bible say there is death? Because of sin. And when was that sin? After Creation. And there must have been an Adam and Eve, because that's why there is sin. And there must be sin, becuase that's what we're saved from. And if there's no need for us to be saved, there's no need for Jesus. And if there's no need for Jesus, there's no Christianity.a bible literalist! that explains alot. :)

Replying the same way.

As am I again.

so you are saying that there is no Corruptor, no Devil, Satan, or any force that is bent on corrupting man. no Lucifer, no Fallen Angel, it's all man's desire to do evil.

No, I'm not. You pointed to the verses below. He tempts to destroy Man's Communion with God, as in Genesis 3, because he wants to spite God, as in Job 1, and because he thinks himself the equal to, if not superior to god, as in Matthew 4

even tho in Genesis 3, you have the serpent who tempted Eve,
the devil talks to God, Job 1
the Devil tempts Jesus, Matthew 4

and if man only wants evil, why then did an entire city repent when Jonah gave them the warning about them displeasing God? If Evil is what men are going to choose, then, by your statement, there is no good deed outside of the lord's will.

God's word says they repented, so they did. But I can repent of an action and not repent of a lifestyle. I can repent of a lifestyle and not repent of my emnity toward God.

no, the view I presented is that man sins. there is no perfect man outside of Jesus, but we strive to follow his teachings, however, we will stumble. your viewpoint is that there is NO CHOICE.

and other past posts of yours indicate that man does not CHOOSE to follow God, but has his heart changed BEFORE they follow god. as is also illustrated in...

No, my view is that there is a choice, and that Man uses that choice to choose evil. Just because the choice happens after God changes the heart does not change that there is a choice.

so as you say, God only changes SOME HEARTS then that changed heart will lead us to follow God.. so you are saying that God is a Discriminating entity that will only want some people, so what makes you think that your heart was changed and not that you are being lead astry by a man who only wants you to listen to him and not God?

How are you sure that you aren't being led astray by a man who wants you to listen to him? Faith. The thing through which grace saves you.

after all, according to you, faith in God does not come until your heart is changed, and your heart will only be changed if you are one of the selected people. Everyone else rots.

Yes. John 3:8 - the Spirit (same word for wind in Hebrew) goes where it wants to go

and once told of God's word, then that person will find the faith and then recieve the Grace. Not as you say, they have their hearts changed then they recieve the Grace, search out the faith.

No, no. God gives them grace to change their hearts. He sends someone to them or takes them to someone (as with Paul and Ananias) and they hear the Word and they have faith.

the Faith that you just said in your previous paragraph, he comes to before God accepts and adopts him. which is what I said all along, the sinner finds his faith, repents and accepts God and is given the saving grace.

No, we're saying to different things. I'm saying that grace comes, then the Word, then faith, then justification (being declared right with God) and adoption (being made a part of God's family), followed by the sanctification (sinning less and less), and ended with glorification (sinning no more).

You're moving grace to in between faith and justification.

And that is why we witness to others, to bring the Word to them and to have them find God and gain his Grace. We are the agents to bring the faith to others, to witness the word of God to them. God doesn't change their hearts unless they want it changed. there is no Elected that was selected at the making of all things, everyone is Elected and able to recieve the blessings but they must first accept God as their savior and have him in their hearts.

No, God has found them and He is drawing them to Himself.

God must change the heart, because otherwise, they would not want it at all!
You are saying that one enters the Kingdom of God and is born again. But Scripture says otherwise: John 3:3 - you have to be born again before you enter the Kingdom of God.

God is only "Limitied" because he chooses to limit himself. He won't go where he is not wanted, he won't force himself on an unbeliever, nor will he force a faithful to stay.

He won't go where He is not wanted. So that everyone doesn't perish, He changes hearts to want Him. And He doesn't force anyone to stay. They are to in love with Him to leave.

yet, after eating of the fruit, God still cared for Adam and Eve to clothed them, he made plans to wash the sins away by stating that the decendent of Eve will ground his heel into the serpent's head.

Umm, that really doesn't refute anything I said.

Ephesians 2:4-5.
US, not the elected, not the select or the few, but all of us.
Ephesians 2: 8-10
by grace THROUGH faith, faith has to be there to recieve the saving Grace. and the rest of Ephesians 2 talks about how we were once foriegners and are now accepted as brothers in God's Household. meaning that we were not elected, or selected at the beginning of time, but are welcomed as we find the faith and recieve the Grace.

And who is "us"? The Church, made up of the elect.

No, grace has to be there for faith. There would be no faith because grace changes the heart so that there can be faith. What is grace? It's unmerited favor. What you're saying is that by having faith, you are earning grace, that you merit it. Which, then, it is no longer grace.


and how do we choose to free ourselves from sin? by accepting Christ and asking God for forgiveness for our sins. a smoker is a slave to his cigerette, a junkie is a slave to his drugs, a workaholic is a slave to his job... and we can choose to free ourselves and like anything we want, we have to work for it.[/QUOTE]

We cannot free ourselves from sin. We're slaves to it remember?

[QUOTE]so why was Noah saved? if ALL deeds man does is evil, even our rightous acts, then there is no Good. a man who helps the poor, if not a christian is doing an evil deed according to you and your interpretation.

Because he was saved by grace through faith and God, for the sake of His Son, counted His works as righteous.

John Gerstner used the illustration of a little boy running out to the field and picking a bunch of weeds to make a bouquet for his father. The father saw it, knew how much it meant to the boy and took it and loved it, even though he knew it wasn't worth anything in value or beauty.

Same with the good deeds of Christians. The heathen isn't even bringing bouquets.

and as for Isaiah, keep reading. Chapter 65 talks about judgement, and mercy. Chapter 66 talks about Judgement and hope.

And?

As for Romans 3... did you read the verse before it?
and this puts romans 3:10-12 into a different light.

All those verses show is that man does sin, but not that he DOESN'T want anything to do with God. only that man, in general, is easily tempted and thus… sins.

All that does is to show that all are guilty.

What about the part which says that no one seeks after God?


Two separate interpretations can be derived from Romans 9. One being that God choose his people, the other being that even tho one’s blood is “righteous”, it doesn’t mean you are already saved.

And that ignores everything it says about God choosing who would serve whom and His right as the Potter to make things for glory (the elect) and to make things for dishonor (the reprobate) from the same lump (humanity).

Take Romans 9:30-32

Again you're not refuting election.

Also, God showed his favor to one son, or one nation before, and he also withdrew that favor when they turned away from God. So the unlimited anointment isn’t unlimited after all.

I confused the words, I'm sorry. The topic was supposed to be "Unconditional Election"

never argued otherwise, I said that the saving grace and the blood of Christ is available to all, but to receive it, one has to have FAITH. You said they were saved by Grace first then they will receive the Faith.
not what you were arguing, you were arguing that the Saving Grace is the only way to obtain the Faith, and ergo, the deeds done plus salvation. And that the Saving Grace is only given to the elected. Now you’re saying anyone can obtain the faith and now receive the saving Grace.

Read what I said:

Anyone may come who wants to, but only the elect want to come.

The elect have been given grace and therefore they want to come. And they will not be turned away. The reprobates (non-elect) have not been given grace and don't want to come. So, there is not possibility to turn them away.

Beyond that you lost me in this last part here.

I show you supporting that only those with the saving Grace will receive salvation in Post 22 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12165903&postcount=22)

Yes.

And you show no difference between the Unlimited Atonement and Limited Atonement.

Sorry, confused the titles of the sections. "Unlimited Atonement should be "Unconditional Election" I edited it.

and that is a referral to Baptism. One has to Choose to be Baptised. To choose to be Baptised is to allow God into your Heart and accept Him and Jesus as your Lord and Savior. That requires FAITH. Which so far, you’ve changed from needing the Grace and the “Change of Heart” in order to get the Faith to having Faith first, then changing your heart (willingly and openly) to receive the Grace which is what I’ve been saying from the start.

Baptism of the Spirit, which is different from baptism of water (which is the representation of baptism of the spirit).

you’ve admitted so far that Faith is required before acceptance, and that the change occurs when one is Reborn, which happens after one has obtained faith and accepted God as their lord and Jesus as their savior. This so far does not show that the God choose his elected before the making of all things.

No. One is reborn when one is changed by grace. One has faith when one repents upon hearing the Word. One can only repent after s/he has been reborn.

Ephesians 1 - "...chose us in him before the foundation of the world..."

All it shows is that God will accept you (into the elected, if you will) when you show that you are willing to do his will.

That agian means that God is reliant upon you, which is blasphemy. And no one is willing unless God changes them, so He would be waiting for nothing.

EVERYONE. So why only change some hearts when this verse says everyone? Because he changes those hearts that opened up to him first. And no where does it say only the elect. Only those who asked for forgiveness, has faith in God and Jesus, received the Grace, and done His will, will receive the reward of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Read in context. A better translation is all (or at least that's how all the translations I've seen have said, even those done by firmly anti-Reformed groups). Same idea as "us". Who is this all refering to? All the Church, who are made up of the elect.

Let’s include the previous verses… shall we?
for those who love him, not predestined, but all who love him and called according to his purpose. Not selected before the making of all things.
[29] God Forknew those would be the firstborn among many brothers… so there’s a lot of others saved that are not going to be considered the “Firstborn” so more than those who you “say were selected” will be saved thus it’s not the elected only that are saved.
[30] he ALSO called, which indicates that there are those he saved and will be accepted into the kingdom of heaven who were not “elected”. So far this only proves that some will be held higher than others… makes sense since Moses sits at God’s side, a position that I know I won’t be afforded, and His Prophets and Disciples will be held higher than the followers.

Still doesn’t support your original claim of the “elected” being the ONLY one’s saved.

AS for foreknow, you have to know who you're choosing before you do. And it says that those predestined werre called. So those whom God chose were the ones called. They are the ones whose heart He changes and they are the ones who love Him.