NationStates Jolt Archive

Whilst I accept people's right to critisise Israel, and I agree with certain non-looneys here to an extent, I find it rather annoying, to put it mildly, that Israel is being picked on on a daily basis. Bashing the evil Zionist bourgeoise is the latest left wing fad. What happened to sorting out the rest of the world? Sudan? Screw them, they're only blacks. Zimbabwe? Screw them, they're only blacks. China? Damn orientals.

See where I'm going? People are concentrating on defending a tiny group of peoples who are only in this shit because they couldn't pull their socks up at various points in history. Instead of comparing Israelis (by whom you really mean Israeli Jews) to Nazis and arguing Israel's right to exist, both aimless debates, why not make a fuss about the issues above? I haven't seen a single thread on any of them in weeks, and whilst I haven't been on much I've seen around 10 Israel-related topics in comparison.

I guess its what to be expected from a bunch of socialists (and worse). Don't take it personally, or as flaming, I just can't stand the left.

When there is probably a thread a day defending all of Israel's most heinous actions, I feel morally obligated to try to cut through the flak. It has nothing to do with being left-wing.

You seem to be ignoring Congo--Kinsasha's thread on which of your nation's Foreign policy decisions do you despise the most. There is a lot of talk about the plight of Africa.

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of US foreign aid to Israel since 1949.
$134,791,507,200. Sourced from WREMA. http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

I consider THAT a reason.

I guess its what to be expected from a bunch of socialists (and worse). Don't take it personally, or as flaming, I just can't stand the left.

Because all socialists hate Israel. :rolleyes:

Grow up.

They're a minority that's easy to pick on.

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of US foreign aid to Israel since 1949.
$134,791,507,200. Sourced from WREMA. http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

I consider THAT a reason.

Don't talk government numbers unless you put them into context. What's that as a percentage of the US government's revenue since 1949?

They have big noses
Don't eat Pork
Don't mix meat and dairy
Spread dissent that forced the death of Jesus
Smell funny
Bolsheviks
Rapper of wimmens
Charge Interest
Have all the gold
Big noses
Smell funny
No matter where they are they have weird voices
Own America
Own Hollywood
Wish to spread communism
Big noses
Big noses
Sing songs about draydles(SP)
Whine about everything
New Yorkers have pretty bad accents but the Jewry of New York is especially whiny
Made up the Holocust
Deny the Holocust
Own Manchester United.

Because all socialists hate Israel. :rolleyes:

Grow up.

Not all...a large majority. I've been there, done that, bought the Lenin poster. Israel-hate is the one banner the entire (non-Jewish) socialist movement fights under

Instead of comparing Israelis (by whom you really mean Israeli Jews)

If I mean Jews, I say Jews. I don't say Jews and neither do the majority of us. I suggest you get a better axe to grind. Now off you pop.

Is it any wonder that up until the seventies, when the Israelis started to elect Jewish Conservatives (as opposed to the leftists who were elected in an almost unobstructed streak up until that point) the western left, a group who previously had a rather nice soft spot for Israel, started to loathe the Israelis?

Of course, this isn't just a complaint against the left, because prior to this point the western Right tended to rather like the Arabs prior to this point, espescially the Jordanians.

I think it's just a bunch of political vindictiveness.

Not all...a large majority. I've been there, done that, bought the Lenin poster. Israel-hate is the one banner the entire (non-Jewish) socialist movement fights under

Nice contradiction. For your information I support Israel because I'm a socialist, not in spite of it.

If I mean Jews, I say Jews. I don't say Jews and neither do the majority of us. I suggest you get a better axe to grind. Now off you pop.

Context boy, read the context. People compare Israel to the Nazis as the Israeli government is predominately Jewish and some people think that it's terribly clever to compare the Jews to Hitler becuase of...you know what, even though there is absolutely NO comparison, and doing so merely insults everybody who lived and died in Europe between 1933 and 1945.

There, sentence complete.

Nice contradiction. For your information I support Israel because I'm a socialist, not in spite of it.

I meant socialist movements and I stick by that. Every loony left organisation I know is anti-Israel all the way.

Not all...a large majority. I've been there, done that, bought the Lenin poster. Israel-hate is the one banner the entire (non-Jewish) socialist movement fights under

Once again, grow up!

It is not anti-jewish to criticize actions of the Israeli government. Is it anti-palestinian for me to crtiticize the actions of palestinian terrorists (which I frequently do)?

They have big noses
Don't eat Pork
Don't mix meat and dairy
Spread dissent that forced the death of Jesus
Smell funny
Bolsheviks
Rapper of wimmens
Charge Interest
Have all the gold
Big noses
Smell funny
No matter where they are they have weird voices
Own America
Own Hollywood
Wish to spread communism
Big noses
Big noses
Sing songs about draydles(SP)
Whine about everything
New Yorkers have pretty bad accents but the Jewry of New York is especially whiny
Made up the Holocust
Deny the Holocust
Own Manchester United.

While Isreal is hardly a shining paragon, this is about the sum of it. Some people are expressing their genuine political belief that Isreal's actions are wrong. They probably would bash China, but as you say, you don't get threads on those others, and, presumably, few of them are inclined to make threads.

Others are just as you say. To be fair, it also happens to Christians, Muslims, the Right, the Left, and every molecule in any way connected to the United States

Once again, grow up!

It is not anti-jewish to criticize actions of the Israeli government. Is it anti-palestinian for me to crtiticize the actions of palestinian terrorists (which I frequently do)?
So you aren't anti-Israel? You had me fooled. I haven't brought up anti-Semetism

A special kind of anger is raised towards Israel because it gets a pass in the US media. No one gives a pass to Iran and Sudan.

Whilst I accept people's right to critisise Israel, and I agree with certain non-looneys here to an extent, I find it rather annoying, to put it mildly, that Israel is being picked on on a daily basis. Bashing the evil Zionist bourgeoise is the latest left wing fad.
*BING*

Left wing? Sorry. You loose.

What happened to sorting out the rest of the world? Sudan? Screw them, they're only blacks. Zimbabwe? Screw them, they're only blacks. China? Damn orientals.
Perhaps you should start a thread on them then?


See where I'm going? People are concentrating on defending a tiny group of peoples who are only in this shit because they couldn't pull their socks up at various points in history. Instead of comparing Israelis (by whom you really mean Israeli Jews)
*BING*

Nope. Strike two, that is. Israelis = Israelis, Israeli jews = Israeli jews.

...to Nazis and arguing Israel's right to exist, both aimless debates, why not make a fuss about the issues above? I haven't seen a single thread on any of them in weeks, and whilst I haven't been on much I've seen around 10 Israel-related topics in comparison.
You're not the only one who's tired of the endless debates about Israel - especially how any debate about current events culminates in a debate about who did what when for the umphteenth time.


I guess its what to be expected from a bunch of socialists (and worse). Don't take it personally, or as flaming, I just can't stand the left.
*BING*

That's strike three. You're out!

Left wing? Sorry. You loose.


O RLY? Why?

Perhaps you should start a thread on them then?

I'd have to make a hell of a alot of them to keep up with the anti-Israel brigade here

Nope. Strike two, that is. Israelis = Israelis, Israeli jews = Israeli jews.


Again, I was refering to the Nazis=Israel thread which obviously refered to Jews

You're not the only one who's tired of the endless debates about Israel - especially how any debate about current events culminates in a debate about who did what when for the umphteenth time.

Good, what's your beef then?

That's strike three. You're out!


Haha, jolly good! Where's the baseball match then? You seem to have an issue with the word 'left'

given that the israel/palestine issue is not one where both sides are wrong, its one where 4 or 5 sides are wrong, why do so many people here put the blame on only israel?

i have 3 theories. i think they are all correct to some extent.

1) antisemitism. why else blame israel when there are 3 or 4 other sides with blame in it also?

2) israel feels more western than the arab countries do so we expect more out of them. we want them to act nicer because they are a reflection on us.

3) we get more news out of israel and we understand them better so we know where their blame lies. the arab countries are more complicated and we understand their motives less well.

When there is probably a thread a day defending all of Israel's most heinous actions, I feel morally obligated to try to cut through the flak. It has nothing to do with being left-wing.


There isn't one thread, CERTAINLY not a thread a day that defends Israel. All the pro-Israelis here are posting in the Israel bashing threads, they DO NOT start new ones. You don't post here too often, or maybe just a liar.

I meant socialist movements and I stick by that. Every loony left organisation I know is anti-Israel all the way.


'loony left' to think colonisation and a semi apartheid system of occupation is wrong.......?

'loony left' to think colonisation and a semi apartheid system of occupation is wrong.......?

No, because my grandfather refers to all socialists and varieties thereof as the 'loony left', and I respect my grandfather a great deal thank ye

Context boy, read the context. People compare Israel to the Nazis as the Israeli government is predominately Jewish and some people think that it's terribly clever to compare the Jews to Hitler becuase of...you know what, even though there is absolutely NO comparison, and doing so merely insults everybody who lived and died in Europe between 1933 and 1945.

There, sentence complete.

By the way, why don't you take it up with "people" instead of lumping all together with the three (at most) who agreed with that particular OP? Or do you just want some negative attention for yourself?

No, because my grandfather refers to all socialists and varieties thereof as the 'loony left', and I respect my grandfather a great deal thank ye

I suggest that while you might respect him, you might also make sure he always has his trousers on before letting him leave the house.

Whilst I accept people's right to critisise Israel, and I agree with certain non-looneys here to an extent, I find it rather annoying, to put it mildly, that Israel is being picked on on a daily basis. Bashing the evil Zionist bourgeoise is the latest left wing fad. What happened to sorting out the rest of the world? Sudan? Screw them, they're only blacks. Zimbabwe? Screw them, they're only blacks. China? Damn orientals.

See where I'm going? People are concentrating on defending a tiny group of peoples who are only in this shit because they couldn't pull their socks up at various points in history. Instead of comparing Israelis (by whom you really mean Israeli Jews) to Nazis and arguing Israel's right to exist, both aimless debates, why not make a fuss about the issues above? I haven't seen a single thread on any of them in weeks, and whilst I haven't been on much I've seen around 10 Israel-related topics in comparison.

I guess its what to be expected from a bunch of socialists (and worse). Don't take it personally, or as flaming, I just can't stand the left.

you don't see the irony in that rant.....picking on Israel is "annoying", but hating socialists just because you "can't stand the left" is rational?

Israel is the main cause of the worlds problems with Islam.... fundamental Islam is a backlash reaction against the west for it's perceived war on Muslims. Israel claims to be a western democracy but behaves like apartheid S Africa, if it wants to be respected as a western democracy it needs to behave like one.....The other countries you mentioned are not Western Democracy's so we don't expect civilized behaviour from them, we expect brutal regimes in those country's and there's little we can do about it.....

....and socialists you so illogically despise tend to pick on aggressor nations, the personality traits it takes to make a socialist tend to make them non aggressive....and socialist nations tend not to invade other countries, it's just not in their nature.....

I suggest that while you might respect him, you might also make sure he always has his trousers on before letting him leave the house.

And you're the one telling me to grow up, insulting an old man (who incidentally is in perfect mental health at 88) simply because he disagrees with the far left?

Tut tut, cant practice what you preach? Socialist but ageist?

you don't see the irony in that rant.....picking on Israel is "annoying", but hating socialists just because you "can't stand the left" is rational?

Israel is the main cause of the worlds problems with Islam.... fundamental Islam is a backlash reaction against the west for it's perceived war on Muslims. Israel claims to be a western democracy but behaves like apartheid S Africa, if it wants to be respected as a western democracy it needs to behave like one.....The other countries you mentioned are not Western Democracy's so we don't expect civilized behaviour from them, we expect brutal regimes in those country's and there's little we can do about it.....

....and socialists you so illogically despise tend to pick on aggressor nations, the personality traits it takes to make a socialist tend to make them non aggressive....and socialist nations tend not to invade other countries, it's just not in their nature.....

I'll pick on the first bit because my fingers are starting to hurt. I dont hate socialists. I hate socialism.

O RLY? Why?
Sweeping generalisation without an attemt to clarify what you're talking about, use of an inaccurate term. What constitutes "the left"? The left of what? The left on the european political scale, or the left in the american political scale, or the left on any other political scale?

That's why you loose.

I'd have to make a hell of a alot of them to keep up with the anti-Israel brigade here
Have you made one yet? Just curious, I haven't seen one. It would be a start, wouldn't it?


Again, I was refering to the Nazis=Israel thread which obviously refered to Jews
Oh Gods how I loathed that thread.

And that's not what you said in your OP. Accuracy is your friend. If you didn't mean every single of the bazillion Israel threads, but only one - say so clearly.


Good, what's your beef then?
Kinda said it didn't I. It always ends up in the same debate - even in paralell threads. It always drowns out the current matter, the situation today, by re-examening things that happened 50 years ago. Sure, it's important, but please: Every single thread? *groans*


Haha, jolly good! Where's the baseball match then? You seem to have an issue with the word 'left'
I have an issue with sweeping generalisations.

given that the israel/palestine issue is not one where both sides are wrong, its one where 4 or 5 sides are wrong, why do so many people here put the blame on only israel?Because there was no Israel/Palestine "issue" before the mass immigration of Jews into Palestine with the set aim to create a state on foreign soil regardless of any circumstances. Of course the British and the UN are as well responsible for the Palestinian Arabs' plight, but they are no longer there to continue this attack on Arab sovereignty and right to self-determination. Due to the Holocaust people in the West are naturally reluctant to ever view Jews as aggressors, and there is also the notion of Jews always being the victims conveyed by the biblical tradition, but nevertheless it is clear who is to blame in all this: the Jews who with their unreasonable and inappropriate wish for statehood created and furthered the current conflict. And although meanwhile they have renamed themselves "Israel" they are still the same folks and although there are now new generations of Jews the nationalistic pride and aggression of their fathers and grandfathers are neither forgotten nor unmade. And look at the situation. Who keeps who under occupation? Who builds a Wall to detain its perceived enemies? Who continues the confiscation and colonization of land?

Sweeping generalisation without an attemt to clarify what you're talking about, use of an inaccurate term. What constitutes "the left"? The left of what? The left on the european political scale, or the left in the american political scale, or the left on any other political scale?

That's why you loose.

OK, OK, I submit, I mean socialism and beyond

Have you made one yet? Just curious, I haven't seen one. It would be a start, wouldn't it?

Actually I just started reusing the forums a few days ago. Give me a chance.

Oh Gods how I loathed that thread.

And that's not what you said in your OP. Accuracy is your friend. If you didn't mean every single of the bazillion Israel threads, but only one - say so clearly.

''Instead of comparing Israelis (by whom you really mean Israeli Jews) to Nazis...''

Kinda said it didn't I. It always ends up in the same debate - even in paralell threads. It always drowns out the current matter, the situation today, by re-examening things that happened 50 years ago. Sure, it's important, but please: Every single thread? *groans*

I agree

I have an issue with sweeping generalisations.

Perhaps I'm specifically targeting those on the left who despise Israel? My feeling, from experience, is that socialists and communists who are anti-Zionist are so out of ideological pressure, whilst those who dont subscribe to such movements but are critical are more independant and reasonable. I find it aggravating that 'lefties' as they shall hereby be known constantly create anti-Israel threads whilst posting 'evidence' from sites which are obviously pro-Palestinian and completely anti-Israeli. I don't want to sound like a paranoid nutter, but I'm afraid that its true.

And you're the one telling me to grow up, insulting an old man (who incidentally is in perfect mental health at 88) simply because he disagrees with the far left?

Tut tut, cant practice what you preach? Socialist but ageist?

Who is far left? Didn't you say he uses the term for "all socialists and varieties thereof"?
Bit late to pull back now....

There isn't one thread, CERTAINLY not a thread a day that defends Israel. All the pro-Israelis here are posting in the Israel bashing threads, they DO NOT start new ones. You don't post here too often, or maybe just a liar.
Do you post here often?

Since the 29th of dec (too lazy to go back a whole week), you'll find these threads:

I suppose Israel is to blame for this one (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=512976)

Defend the breach of the cease fire (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=512801)

Your stance on the Israel-Palestinian conflict? (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=512748)

The right of Israel to exist (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=513013)

"Israel approves W Bank settlement" (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=512346)

Israel winning war of attrition (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=512713)

Who here Supports Israel? Want to join the NSG Jew Crew? (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=494177) - OK, so this last one is the infamous Jew-Crew thread, which was grave dug and locked, but appart from that - there are threads started by pro-Israelis, and there are threads both attacking and defending the actions of both sides.

Go ahead, take a look.

Actually I just started reusing the forums a few days ago. Give me a chance.
You're the one bringing it up ;)


''Instead of comparing Israelis (by whom you really mean Israeli Jews) to Nazis...''
That has a tendency to happen in any thread on Israel you know. There are extremes on both sides.
Perhaps I'm specifically targeting those on the left who despise Israel?
Then say so, and don't paint with a wide brush. There are many on the left who don't despise Israel.

My feeling, from experience, is that socialists and communists who are anti-Zionist are so out of ideological pressure, whilst those who dont subscribe to such movements but are critical are more independant and reasonable.
If that is your feelings...

I find it aggravating that 'lefties' as they shall hereby be known
Why? Why call them that? Do you seek aggravation?

constantly create anti-Israel threads whilst posting 'evidence' from sites which are obviously pro-Palestinian and completely anti-Israeli. I don't want to sound like a paranoid nutter, but I'm afraid that its true.
Examples?

And if - no, when - you do find these examples, do I have to find the Anti-Palestinian threads where the posters use 'evidence' from sites which are obviously pro-Israeli and completely anti-Palestinian? You know that it happens too.

Perhaps I'm specifically targeting those on the left who despise Israel? My feeling, from experience, is that socialists and communists who are anti-Zionist are so out of ideological pressure, whilst those who dont subscribe to such movements but are critical are more independant and reasonable. I find it aggravating that 'lefties' as they shall hereby be known constantly create anti-Israel threads whilst posting 'evidence' from sites which are obviously pro-Palestinian and completely anti-Israeli. I don't want to sound like a paranoid nutter, but I'm afraid that its true.

ideological pressure-if you refer opposition to Israel and it's defiance of the Geneva Convention and running an oppressive Apartheid Regime, how can any civilized person not object, not to object is wrong.....for anybody to be labeled a left wing looney for supporting human rights is looney!

according to you taking a stance in support of Palestinians automatically makes everyone a left wing looney and anti jewish...... you don't want to sound like a paranoid nutter, but you do and probably are.....objective you certainly are not

Who is far left? Didn't you say he uses the term for "all socialists and varieties thereof"?
Bit late to pull back now....

I'll write what I meant and sign off, you're the one being unclear this time around.

I call some socialists, all communists and all anarchists the 'loony left'. Others are judged on a case-by-case basis

Now, time for sleep

ideological pressure-if you refer opposition to Israel and it's defiance of the Geneva Convention and running an oppressive Apartheid Regime, how can any civilized person not object, not to object is wrong.....for anybody to be labeled a left wing looney for supporting human rights is looney!

according to you taking a stance in support of Palestinians automatically makes everyone a left wing looney and anti jewish...... you don't want to sound like a paranoid nutter, but you do and probably are.....objective you certainly are not

I'm sorry I can't resist

This person, ladies and gents, is a perfect example of the loony left! He/she shall henceforth be my case example for all previous and future debates

Do you post here often?

Since the 29th of dec (too lazy to go back a whole week), you'll find these threads:

(1)I suppose Israel is to blame for this one (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=512976)

(2)Defend the breach of the cease fire (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=512801)

(3) Your stance on the Israel-Palestinian conflict? (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=512748)

(4)The right of Israel to exist (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=513013)

(5) "Israel approves W Bank settlement" (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=512346)

(6) Israel winning war of attrition (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=512713)

(7)Who here Supports Israel? Want to join the NSG Jew Crew? (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=494177) - OK, so this last one is the infamous Jew-Crew thread, which was grave dug and locked, but appart from that - there are threads started by pro-Israelis, and there are threads both attacking and defending the actions of both sides.


1 and 2, ok, you are right. The third is neutral. 4, 5 AND 6 are anti-Israeli. I think there is an anti Israeli thread once day or every other day but anti-Palestinain or pro Israeli threads are rare, unlike the poster I responded to claimed.

Israel-hate is the one banner the entire (non-Jewish) socialist movement fights under

There is no such thing as a "non-Jewish" socialist movement.

There is no such thing as a "non-Jewish" socialist movement.

Excuse me? What do you mean by that?

1 and 2, ok, you are right. The third is neutral. 4, 5 AND 6 are anti-Israeli. I think there is an anti Israeli thread once day or every other day but anti-Palestinain or pro Israeli threads are rare, unlike the poster I responded to claimed.

So, you have 1,2 & 7 pro. (3)
3 neutral. (1)
And 4,5 & 6 anti. (3)

That's a balance. What are you whinging about?

Excuse me? What do you mean by that?

That every left-wing socialist movement I can think of in the Western World has been full of Jews.

As an anarchist, a communist, a socialist, and a Jew, I think this is a good thing.

So, you have 1,2 & 7 pro. (3)
3 neutral. (1)
And 4,5 & 6 anti. (3)

That's a balance. What are you whinging about?

Gravlen only gave me a list of threads (he thought) were pro-Israeli. He haven't even started counting the anti-Israeli ones.

That every left-wing socialist movement I can think of in the Western World has been full of Jews.

As an anarchist, a communist, a socialist, and a Jew, I think this is a good thing.

ok, I thought for a minute there you were making up Zionist conspiracies ;)

1 and 2, ok, you are right. The third is neutral. 4, 5 AND 6 are anti-Israeli. I think there is an anti Israeli thread once day or every other day but anti-Palestinain or pro Israeli threads are rare, unlike the poster I responded to claimed.
I know there are both, I took every thread - didn't want to be selective.

And I'm sorry, but I don't see that you're right. I see what you would call an anti-Israel thread every other day and an anti-Palestinian thread every day in between. Sometimes they come in groups or waves, but still... There is a balance.
So, you have 1,2 & 7 pro. (3)
3 neutral. (1)
And 4,5 & 6 anti. (3)

That's a balance. What are you whinging about?
Indeed.

Gravlen only gave me a list of threads (he thought) were pro-Israeli. He haven't even started counting the anti-Israeli ones.

If you were to take the ones that had actual substance to them (that excludes trolls, and neo-nazi rantings) most actually are to do with current events - Lebanon War, Settlement building, Hamas attacks, breakdown in peace talks, establishment of Kadima.

Few start out with "Back in 1948..zzzzzzzzzzzzz"

Current events are not 'anti-Israeli'. Being critical of certain policies doesn't make people anti-Israeli.

Gravlen only gave me a list of threads (he thought) were pro-Israeli. He haven't even started counting the anti-Israeli ones.

Bullshit! I gave every thread on the Israeli issue to show that there is a balance! Including the anti-Israel ones. If you don't believe me, go see for yourself.

God, some people! :rolleyes:

What I said was:
there are threads started by pro-Israelis, and there are threads both attacking and defending the actions of both sides.

If you were to take the ones that had actual substance to them (that excludes trolls, and neo-nazi rantings) most actually are to do with current events - Lebanon War, Settlement building, Hamas attacks, breakdown in peace talks, establishment of Kadima.

Few start out with "Back in 1948..zzzzzzzzzzzzz"

Current events are not 'anti-Israeli'. Being critical of certain policies doesn't make people anti-Israeli.

I didn't say "only threads with actual subtance".

And yes, people take positions, anti-Israeli and anti-Palestinians.

given that the israel/palestine issue is not one where both sides are wrong, its one where 4 or 5 sides are wrong, why do so many people here put the blame on only israel?

i have 3 theories. i think they are all correct to some extent.

1) antisemitism. why else blame israel when there are 3 or 4 other sides with blame in it also?

2) israel feels more western than the arab countries do so we expect more out of them. we want them to act nicer because they are a reflection on us.

3) we get more news out of israel and we understand them better so we know where their blame lies. the arab countries are more complicated and we understand their motives less well.

A rational post, thank you so very much.

I'm sorry I can't resist

This person, ladies and gents, is a perfect example of the loony left! He/she shall henceforth be my case example for all previous and future debates:rolleyes: what a pathetic specimen you are, any that disagree with you are commies.....and you can't even define what a looney left is(oh right I almost forgot, "my daddy told me")....and I thought irrational nutters were only to be found on Fox......

Gravlen only gave me a list of threads (he thought) were pro-Israeli. He haven't even started counting the anti-Israeli ones.

Well Mr. Mind Reader? Have you gone back and counted yet? Or would you rather admit that you either lied or were simply mistaken in your assumptions?

Well Mr. Mind Reader? Have you gone back and counted yet? Or would you rather admit that you either lied or were simply mistaken in your assumptions?

it's 2 pro-Israeli and 3 pro-Palestinian threads by your count, if it's only until last week or whatever date you said. I don't think there is a balance, there are much more anti-Israeli threads unlike what the person I first replied to said.

it's 2 pro-Israeli and 3 pro-Palestinian threads by your count, if it's only until last week or whatever date you said. I don't think there is a balance, there are much more anti-Israeli threads unlike what the person I first replied to said.
Remember this?
All the pro-Israelis here are posting in the Israel bashing threads, they DO NOT start new ones. You don't post here too often, or maybe just a liar.
Even one single thread would prove you wrong. And it has.

But that's not what got under my skin; it's more how you erroneously claimed that I only gave the threads I thought were pro Israel. And then that I hadn't counted the anti Israel ones. So again, as I no longer give a crap about whether you believe there is a balance or not: Have you gone back and looked? Have you seen that I have included both?

Remember this?

Even one single thread would prove you wrong. And it has.

But that's not what got under my skin; it's more how you erroneously claimed that I only gave the threads I thought were pro Israel. And then that I hadn't counted the anti Israel ones. So again, as I no longer give a crap about whether you believe there is a balance or not: Have you gone back and looked? Have you seen that I have included both?

1 and 2, ok, you are right.

I admitted that I was wrong. If it wasn't clear in that thread, sorry, I was wrong about that and that I thought you thought you were only posting pro-Israel links. But I still think the first poster I answered to is VERY wrong.

I admitted that I was wrong. If it wasn't clear in that thread, sorry, I was wrong about that and that I thought you thought you were only posting pro-Israel links. But I still think the first poster I answered to is VERY wrong.

Thank you, that is all I asked for :)
Sorry, but I just don't like it when people put words in my mouth (or mind, as it were ;) ) Bygones.


I'll leave the rest up to you and the first poster.

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of US foreign aid to Israel since 1949.
$134,791,507,200. Sourced from WREMA. http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

I consider THAT a reason.

Over 58 years, that's not a lot of money. That's like lending your mate $50.

I'm confused as to why the left is stuck with being "ideologically opposed to the existence of Israel." I'm making the assumption here that this is what the author means by anti-Israel. If the author means it in a different way, please clarify after my post, but it didn't seem to look any other way from the first four pages of posting.

Of course the left is ideologically committed to their stance on Israel. Everyone's stance on any issue is derived from their ideology. If you're going to tell me that you don't have an ideology, you're lying. There is and must be some set of ideas about what constitutes a just world that informs your politics. If it isn't that way, then either you're crazy, or you don't know anything. So having dealt with this issue, the blame cannot be placed on ideology. The root has to be somewhere else.

So why do so many people that constitute the "looney left" object to many of the actions of the state of Israel? That's an easy question to answer. The state of Israel is blatantly colonialist. That's not because they're Jewish, it's because they're a group of outsiders that settled in an area where there were indigenous inhabitants. You have three choices when you confront that situation and none of them are particularly ethical. You could commit a massive program of genocide and attempt to eradicate the indigenous population (that was the route the US took). You could force the inhabitants to leave (this was the basis of the refugee problem in 48). Israelis started a campaign of what can only be called terrorism (Deir Yassin) and Palestinians fled. The only other option to have a minority rule over a majority is to set up the laws so that the majority is completely disempowered, while coupling this to what must in essence be a police state. That is the West Bank and Gaza and former South Africa under apartheid. Israel picked a mix of the two. Now anyone who calls themself a leftist, which means you care about social justice for all people better defend the right of self-determination of the Palestinians.

And to the individual that thinks that what happened in 1948 doesn't impact the present day situation, and the outlooks for the future, you make it clear that you're located somewhere in the Global North, and you're definitely a white male. Ask a black person if as they were growing up, the civil rights movement impacted their consciousness. And I can personally say, that Arab culture has a much better memory than American culture.

Originally Posted by JiangGuo
Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of US foreign aid to Israel since 1949.
$134,791,507,200. Sourced from WREMA. http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

I consider THAT a reason.

Over 58 years, that's not a lot of money. That's like lending your mate $50.


Alright here's the context for that post. From the mid 1960s Israel has consistently been the primary recipient of US foreign aid. Now someone explain to me why Israel, which has a very developed economy, is getting a large amount of financial aid from the United States. There's your context. We starve Arab babies (Iraqi sanctions), while we give money to Western people to bomb the Arab babies that we don't starve. So the person that said it's about anti-Semitism that the left critiques Israel was wrong. It's about anti-racism that the left criticizes Israel.

And by the way, that premise that because Israelis are more Western we expect more out of them, I hope you see the blatant racism in that argument. And ask Saddam Hussein if you think we only expect democracies to act nice.

And by the way, that premise that because Israelis are more Western we expect more out of them, I hope you see the blatant racism in that argument. And ask Saddam Hussein if you think we only expect democracies to act nice.

a misinterpretation of the post, there is no racism......A country that claims to hold modern democratic ideals as Israel claims shouldn't behave like an apartheid regime, we expect better from them.......countries like China, Sudan,Iran, Zimbabwe, Saddam's Iraq are not modern democracy's, so it isn't surprising when they behave badly, their human rights abuse is expected/normal, it's not that we wouldn't want them to improve.....

there is no racism......A country that claims to hold modern democratic ideals as Israel claims shouldn't behave like an apartheid regime, we expect better from them...

Who's "we"? I expect more of the same. Far more.

I guess the expecting more that Socialist is referring to is at least attempting to cover it up when you torture people (Guantanamo).

So you're telling me, we (I'm using the word to mean mainstream Americans or the administration's rhetoric) expect the same out of Egypt as we do out of Israel. Both claim to uphold democratic values, shit Mubarak even allowed other parties this past election? I don't buy that at all. No one expects Mubarak to even pretend to uphold human rights, which is why he's not catching flak for the forced conversions that are going on. Israel has white people, which means that the liberal (non-radical) left will jump on them faster, and the right will use this argument "they must have a good reason."

1 and 2, ok, you are right. The third is neutral. 4, 5 AND 6 are anti-Israeli. I think there is an anti Israeli thread once day or every other day but anti-Palestinain or pro Israeli threads are rare, unlike the poster I responded to claimed.

As the founder of the Fourth thread on that list, I can tell you that it is not about being anti-israeli. The thread is about the Israeli government's machiavellian use of hostility to jews to support imperialistic ends.

If it'll make you feel better, I'd hold Israel's military and political tactics toward it's neighbors in just as much disdain if the country were run by rastafarians instead.

being Anti-Israel/Zionism has nothing to do with Anti-Semitism. Why is it so damn hard to separate the two?

If it'll make you feel better, I'd hold Israel's military and political tactics toward it's neighbors in just as much disdain if the country were run by rastafarians instead.You mean those who want to be the ultra-Jewish Nazarites and want to bun (burn) every single Babylonian (non-Rastafarian)?

Well, there's something to be noticed here.

If you're not supporting Israel's apartheid suppression of Palestinian Muslims 100%, the Bushevik-Kahanist alliance of NSG labels you an Anti-Semite.

You mean those who want to be the ultra-Jewish Nazarites and want to bun (burn) every single Babylonian (non-Rastafarian)?

Well, more specifically, to the power brokers who continue to use fear and conflict with their neighbors to keep themselves in positions of power in that country and have little if any motivation to seek any kind of peace other than the kind of peace that comes from being on the right side of the biggest guns.

Of course, that doesn't make them any worse than those who use religion and the helpless rage of poor, disillusioned people to keep themselves in positions of power. But that's not what this thread is about, is it?

Don't talk government numbers unless you put them into context. What's that as a percentage of the US government's revenue since 1949?

Ok will put it into context

That is approximately one third of the USA's total Foreign Aid, to a country that is rated 16th most wealthy in the world...

Ok will put it into context

That is approximately one third of the USA's total Foreign Aid, to a country that is rated 16th most wealthy in the world...

In what world? O_o

I think that you’ll find most of the anti-Israel crowd to be anti-Palestine and anti-terrorism as well. I’m very critical of Israel and thinks it’s one of the biggest blunders of modern times. But, and this is an important but, I can’t support the violent Palestinian uprising and terrorism against civilians. I can understand why they’re doing it, just as I can understand why Israel fights back, but I can’t condone it.

Finally, we hear a lot more about Israel than about Africa simply because the Israel / Palestine conflict is that much more prominent in the media.

I think that you’ll find most of the anti-Israel crowd to be anti-Palestine and anti-terrorism as well. I’m very critical of Israel and thinks it’s one of the biggest blunders of modern times. But, and this is an important but, I can’t support the violent Palestinian uprising and terrorism against civilians. I can understand why they’re doing it, just as I can understand why Israel fights back, but I can’t condone it.
Finally, we hear a lot more about Israel than about Africa simply because the Israel / Palestine conflict is that much more prominent in the media.And because the West has considerable responsibility and guilt in this. After all they let the Jewish immigrants into Palestine en masse.

Ok will put it into context

That is approximately one third of the USA's total Foreign Aid, to a country that is rated 16th most wealthy in the world...

And so debating Israel's right to exist, comparing Israel to the nazi regime, critising Israel's actions everywhere from Nauru to the West Bank is going to sort all of that out? In fact, you're the first person I've ever heard bring aid up on the forums.

You threw a US governmental policy at me, not a reason why Israel is being essentially picked on in relation to other global issues.

You threw a US governmental policy at me, not a reason why Israel is being essentially picked on in relation to other global issues.

Please find for me one of the following -

- a thread defending the treatment of the Tibetans by the Chinese
- a thread defending the treatment of various tribespeople by the Burmese Government.
- a thread defending the treatment of the East Timorese by Indonesia.

Whilst I accept people's right to critisise Israel, and I agree with certain non-looneys here to an extent, I find it rather annoying, to put it mildly, that Israel is being picked on on a daily basis. Bashing the evil Zionist bourgeoise is the latest left wing fad. What happened to sorting out the rest of the world? Sudan? Screw them, they're only blacks. Zimbabwe? Screw them, they're only blacks. China? Damn orientals.

See where I'm going? People are concentrating on defending a tiny group of peoples who are only in this shit because they couldn't pull their socks up at various points in history. Instead of comparing Israelis (by whom you really mean Israeli Jews) to Nazis and arguing Israel's right to exist, both aimless debates, why not make a fuss about the issues above? I haven't seen a single thread on any of them in weeks, and whilst I haven't been on much I've seen around 10 Israel-related topics in comparison.

I guess its what to be expected from a bunch of socialists (and worse). Don't take it personally, or as flaming, I just can't stand the left.

Well it is flaming because it's an irrational attack. You're also wrong on so many of your supporting statements that it seems that the reason you can't stand the left is because they threaten your world view by being right about all the stuff you are wrong about.

Criticizing Zionism and complaining about how the government gets us involved in matters that are not our affair and complaining about Zionsism are one and the same. It is because of entanglements with Zionist "allies" that we are getting involved in many Middle East efforts that do not concern us.

When complaints are made about Isralis by the left they are most definitly not using it as a euphamism for Jews. Your own racism is evidenced by that accusation. Most American Jews are liberals. Jewish neo-cons comprise only a tiny high-profile minority.

I'm having trouble with your statements on the rest of those countries. Are you saying that we shouldn't care about Africans and Asians or that liberals believe that? If it's the former, well we liberals can only take your emnity as a badge of honor. "Judge a man by his enemies," and all that.

And so debating Israel's right to exist, comparing Israel to the nazi regime, critising Israel's actions everywhere from Nauru to the West Bank is going to sort all of that out? In fact, you're the first person I've ever heard bring aid up on the forums.

You threw a US governmental policy at me, not a reason why Israel is being essentially picked on in relation to other global issues.

No you asked to put the spending in perspective ... thats all I did. Now if you are confusing me with someone else I am sorry .

And I am not the first person ... I answered the request you made of ANOTHER person who brought up the foreign aid so there are at least 2 of us.

Either way assuming you were not confused I will answer your question anyways. Either way the original line of reasoning that we watch and hold them to a higher standard because we are funding them on a massive level.
I think that we should hold anyone we dump that sort of money into to a certain standard otherwise they should not receive the funding, ESPECIALLY when they are comparably rich.

Well it is flaming because it's an irrational attack. You're also wrong on so many of your supporting statements that it seems that the reason you can't stand the left is because they threaten your world view by being right about all the stuff you are wrong about.

Criticizing Zionism and complaining about how the government gets us involved in matters that are not our affair and complaining about Zionsism are one and the same. It is because of entanglements with Zionist "allies" that we are getting involved in many Middle East efforts that do not concern us.

When complaints are made about Isralis by the left they are most definitly not using it as a euphamism for Jews. Your own racism is evidenced by that accusation. Most American Jews are liberals. Jewish neo-cons comprise only a tiny high-profile minority.

I'm having trouble with your statements on the rest of those countries. Are you saying that we shouldn't care about Africans and Asians or that liberals believe that? If it's the former, well we liberals can only take your emnity as a badge of honor. "Judge a man by his enemies," and all that.

Here we go, another bozo whose comprehension skills are sincerely lacking. My comment about Israeli Jews was specifically refering to the 'Israel=Nazis' thread Sovietstan posted a while back. I'm not accusing anybody of being anti-semetic, or racist, and although in my view a lot of hate for 'Zionism' is based on ignorance I accept people's rights to critisise Israel freely.

HOWEVER I find it aggravating that so many people feel the need to create mindless threads attacking Israel, especially considering the lack of coverage of other, more major, issues such as the Congo. I don't know why that is. Perhaps its because Israel receives more news coverage, perhaps people think they know more about it, but that doesn't change my perception of the issue.

And no, I don't feel threatened by the left, by whom I mean communists and socialists and (gulp) anarchists. It's none of your business to probe into my beliefs and 'insecurities' when it's irrelevant.

No you asked to put the spending in perspective ... thats all I did. Now if you are confusing me with someone else I am sorry .

And I am not the first person ... I answered the request you made of ANOTHER person who brought up the foreign aid so there are at least 2 of us.

Either way assuming you were not confused I will answer your question anyways. Either way the original line of reasoning that we watch and hold them to a higher standard because we are funding them on a massive level.
I think that we should hold anyone we dump that sort of money into to a certain standard otherwise they should not receive the funding, ESPECIALLY when they are comparably rich.

I agree with you completely, I was just wondering what relevance US aid to Israel to this thread. In rebuttal though, what about US aid to Africa for instace, where a massive proportion is essentially flushed down the toilet when it passes into the hands of corrupt officials?

Sorry if I confused you.

HOWEVER I find it aggravating that so many people feel the need to create mindless threads attacking Israel, especially considering the lack of coverage of other, more major, issues such as the Congo. I don't know why that is. Perhaps its because Israel receives more news coverage, perhaps people think they know more about it, but that doesn't change my perception of the issue.


You have been given the answer.

I agree with you completely, I was just wondering what relevance US aid to Israel to this thread. In rebuttal though, what about US aid to Africa for instace, where a massive proportion is essentially flushed down the toilet when it passes into the hands of corrupt officials?

Sorry if I confused you.

I agree that is bad as well ... and i criticize the failings of getting that money where it could do the most good too ... Along with most of the other "leftists" on the board.

Hell the only reason we really see the number of Israel threads we do is because of IDF and Ocean between the two of them I bet they start 50 + percent of them or more and then it is a hot topic and turns into a shitstorm in a hurry. And when a topic is popular that is the place to voice our concerns.

Either way I don't see for the most part what you are describing in the OP.

Snip
HOWEVER I find it aggravating that so many people feel the need to create mindless threads attacking Israel, especially considering the lack of coverage of other, more major, issues such as the Congo. I don't know why that is. Perhaps its because Israel receives more news coverage, perhaps people think they know more about it, but that doesn't change my perception of the issue.
Snip

Hell honestly how long have you been around here? Like I stated if you pay attention 50+ percent of them at least are started by two people (one pro one anti Israeli state) and they de-evolve quickly

If you want a discussion on issues like the Congo start one we will be happy to argue it, but as is the people with Israel on the brain take the initiative and do it and we argue it

Hell honestly how long have you been around here? Like I stated if you pay attention 50+ percent of them at least are started by two people (one pro one anti Israeli state) and they de-evolve quickly

If you want a discussion on issues like the Congo start one we will be happy to argue it, but as is the people with Israel on the brain take the initiative and do it and we argue it

I've been here 2 years, although I stopped posting a few months in. I started up again a week or two ago, and things haven't changed much.

Last time I checked threads could only be started by one person, and the bulk seem to have provocative titles such as 'Israel's right to exist', which is going to give strongly anti-Zionist posters an orgasm whilst offending others.

You have been given the answer.

There's no answer, there's people's perceptions. It could range from hatred of Fox to anti-Semetism, although I don't want to explore any of it. It's irrelevant.

why not? (but I would rather pick on the israeli gov.)

I've been here 2 years, although I stopped posting a few months in. I started up again a week or two ago, and things haven't changed much.

Last time I checked threads could only be started by one person, and the bulk seem to have provocative titles such as 'Israel's right to exist', which is going
to give strongly anti-Zionist posters an orgasm whilst offending others.

Yeah but do you look who posts these things
3 of the last 45 was DesignatedMarksman
3 in the last 45 were IDF
11 in the last 45 were OceanDrive

So about 38 percent of all threads (taking the last 30 as a sample) started by those three alone

And on average how many times to we just have people not read the front page and post duplicate information on breaking news?

To put that into perspective it has taken almost a year (sense February) 06 to make 45 threads on Israel We have covered 45 threads on religion sense October ... Many of them more provocative in title then the Israel ones

There's no answer, there's people's perceptions. It could range from hatred of Fox to anti-Semetism, although I don't want to explore any of it. It's irrelevant.

Troll here under any other names, little man?

Here we are again.
Please find for me one of the following -

- a thread defending the treatment of the Tibetans by the Chinese
- a thread defending the treatment of various tribespeople by the Burmese Government.
- a thread defending the treatment of the East Timorese by Indonesia.

You have been given the answer.

Troll here under any other names, little man?

Here we are again.

As I matter of fact I don't, big man. What gave you the impression that I do? Anybody spring to mind? :)

Those two examples I gave were extremes. I know that for the majority of people the real reason will be completely different.

And what point were you trying to make there?

Yeah but do you look who posts these things
3 of the last 45 was DesignatedMarksman
3 in the last 45 were IDF
11 in the last 45 were OceanDrive

So about 38 percent of all threads (taking the last 30 as a sample) started by those three alone

And on average how many times to we just have people not read the front page and post duplicate information on breaking news?

To put that into perspective it has taken almost a year (sense February) 06 to make 45 threads on Israel We have covered 45 threads on religion sense October ... Many of them more provocative in title then the Israel ones

I don't agree with IDF or ocean at all, but if you are to put those numbers into the bigger picture I've found only 1 post regarding Africa over the last 5 pages.

Don't talk government numbers unless you put them into context. What's that as a percentage of the US government's revenue since 1949?

Those numbers are extremely high regardless of the US revenue. That comparison would make absolutely no sense whatsoever. Now comparing those numbers the the aid given to any other foreign country would make sense. We give far more money to Israel than we have ever given to the entire continent of Africa. Hell, why should the US be contrived to give any money to Israel as they are self sufficient yes? The US doesn't owe you a certain percentage of our income now do they. We give this aid to help subsidize your economy. This is why the US is always dragged on the carpet when Israel does something dastardly to those "stupid brown people." We supply Israel with monetary and military equipment that they then used to kill the Palestinians. Now the Palis are not innocent by any means, but hell man. When they're throwing rocks and you're using American made M16's the fight is hardly fair. And then you wonder why they are so desperate they have to strap themselves to a bomb? Both groups make me sick with their continuation of violence by any means. Do they even want to live in pieces or just live in pieces?

I don't agree with IDF or ocean at all, but if you are to put those numbers into the bigger picture I've found only 1 post regarding Africa over the last 5 pages.

In perspective we have had about 16 topics on Africa this year

But my point on bringing them up was the fact that 3 people start a significant portion of the threads on it (about a third of them)often spawning rebuttal threads

Hell people seeing them all the time start threads ... like yours ... all the time just adding to the number of Israel threads.

You honestly expect people not to be thinking about these things when it is constantly being paraded in front of them?

I'm sorry I can't resist

This person, ladies and gents, is a perfect example of the loony left! He/she shall henceforth be my case example for all previous and future debates

Can you name the country that has broken more UN resolutions than any other?

As I matter of fact I don't, big man. What gave you the impression that I do? Anybody spring to mind? :)

Those two examples I gave were extremes. I know that for the majority of people the real reason will be completely different.

And what point were you trying to make there?

Its fairly obvious, meaning that you're either being obtuse, or are indeed a bit slow on the uptake.

I say, let them pick on whoever their want... I actually think that it's a better psychological way of venting frustration on something they cannot change, rather than just burning cars and all sorts of things...

I don't agree with IDF or ocean at all, but if you are to put those numbers into the bigger picture I've found only 1 post regarding Africa over the last 5 pages.

Do you support the Sudanese government?

Its fairly obvious, meaning that you're either being obtuse, or are indeed a bit slow on the uptake.

Again, you get all excited thinking that you've got one over me and then reality bites.

I meant what was the purpouse of you asking me to find posts relating to Tibet.

Do you support the Sudanese government?

Do you? I don't, but I support the resolution of the conflict there. That means, in this case, millitary intervention and aid to those displaced.

Relevancy?

Can you name the country that has broken more UN resolutions than any other?

Quantity is irrelevant. Iran and North Korea have broken less but that doesn't make them any less dangerous/evil/arrogant.

Again, you get all excited thinking that you've got one over me and then reality bites.

I meant what was the purpouse of you asking me to find posts relating to Tibet.


You're either thick, or being obtuse. We'll presume thick. You won't find people supporting oppressive regimes here, with one exception - Israel.

You're either thick, or being obtuse. We'll presume thick. You won't find people supporting oppressive regimes here, with one exception - Israel.

This could descend into an argument about anti-semetism and why the only 'oppressive regive regime' people support is Israel. but that would aid neither of our causes.

And yes, I am very thick and stupid. No, really. If you could stop making your posts a hodge podge of thinly-related statements I would find it much easier both to comprehend and reply :rolleyes:

This could descend into an argument about anti-semetism and why the only 'oppressive regive regime' people support is Israel. but that would aid neither of our causes.

And yes, I am very thick and stupid. No, really. If you could stop making your posts a hodge podge of thinly-related statements I would find it much easier both to comprehend and reply :rolleyes:

Israel is the only oppressive regime which gets support around here. Sudan - no, communist China, no. Israel=yes. Very simple.

Israel is the only oppressive regime which gets support around here. Sudan - no, communist China, no. Israel=yes. Very simple.

So what you're saying is that because Israel is the only regime people here support (lets not ask ourselves why) threads opposing it outnumber threads opposing even the most hated of regimes? Flawed logic, no?

Can you name the country that has broken more UN resolutions than any other?

Can you name any other country which has been subject to such a disproportionate number of UN resolutions? The UN's attitude towards Israel is ridiculous. In 2005, the UN Commission on Human Rights adopted eight resolutions, four of which were against Israel! The rest went to Belarus, Cuba, Myanmar, and North Korea. What's more interesting is the countries who weren't censured:

Sudan (despite the genocide)
China (Tibet, free speech, freedom of religion, too much shit to list here)
Russia (cracking down on civil rights and free speech at an alarming rate)
Iran (routinely executes children, especially girls, on charges such as 'behaviour inconsistent with chastity)
Saudi Arabia (no freedom of religion)

Given the UN's blatant discrimination against Israel is it any wonder that they've been subject to an excessive number of resolutions?

So what you're saying is that because Israel is the only regime people here support (lets not ask ourselves why) threads opposing it outnumber threads opposing even the most hated of regimes? Flawed logic, no?

Possibly the only oppressive regime that garners support, yes.

Can you name any other country which has been subject to such a disproportionate number of UN resolutions?

Thats because nobody else outside a superpower has been in violation on one subject for so long. Thats why the same thing keeps coming up. Its 4 decades this year.

Quantity is irrelevant. Iran and North Korea have broken less but that doesn't make them any less dangerous/evil/arrogant.

so the answer is Israel. I suppose it's okay to kill 357 people but it's not okay to kill 3,057? I love your defense of the indefensible. "Hey, we're not the worst" doesn't make you good either. My point still stands and everyone else has destroyed you in this thread. "You might win some but you just lost one" as Lauryn Hill would say.

Can you name any other country which has been subject to such a disproportionate number of UN resolutions? The UN's attitude towards Israel is ridiculous. In 2005, the UN Commission on Human Rights adopted eight resolutions, four of which were against Israel! The rest went to Belarus, Cuba, Myanmar, and North Korea. What's more interesting is the countries who weren't censured:

Sudan (despite the genocide)
China (Tibet, free speech, freedom of religion, too much shit to list here)
Russia (cracking down on civil rights and free speech at an alarming rate)
Iran (routinely executes children, especially girls, on charges such as 'behaviour inconsistent with chastity)
Saudi Arabia (no freedom of religion)

Given the UN's blatant discrimination against Israel is it any wonder that they've been subject to an excessive number of resolutions?

Because Israel has been doing it bltantly for years makes it okay? This is another example of your logic being "well they're doing it!" Most of us outgrew that logic by the end of grade school.

Because Israel has been doing it bltantly for years makes it okay? This is another example of your logic being "well they're doing it!" Most of us outgrew that logic by the end of grade school.

Where we disagree is over whether Israel is actually an 'opressive regime' or not. Whilst some practices of the IDF and policies of the government do ammount to Palestinian opression, you cannot lump Israel together with countries such as China, Iran and the Sudan, especially considering that a lot of the Palestinians misfortune is self inflicted or inflicted by the arabs themselves.

This thread is descending into a generic Israel vs Palestine debate, not good...

Thats because nobody else outside a superpower has been in violation on one subject for so long. Thats why the same thing keeps coming up. Its 4 decades this year.

The time is irrelevant, the point is that there are far worse human rights offenders who are ignored while Israel is subject to a barrage of resolutions. Surely you don't think that it's reasonable for Israel to receive four resolutions while Sudan doesn't even receive one? The bias is obvious, during 2004 the UN Human Rights Commission only convened one emergency meeting: it wasn't about the genocide in Sudan, it was the assassination of Ahmed Yassin. do you really think this is proportionate? What's more, the Palestinian population in Lebanon has been subject to serious discrimination ever since their arrival yet I'm not aware of any UN resolutions concerning the Lebanese government's conduct; if there are any then they're certainly not as numerous as those condemning Israel. Saudi Arabia's been around officially since 1932 and it's always had an atrocious human rights record, why aren't they the target of so many resolutions.

It's obvious that UN resolutions don't give any indication of the relative virtue of a nation.

Where we disagree is over whether Israel is actually an 'opressive regime' or not. Whilst some practices of the IDF and policies of the government do ammount to Palestinian opression, you cannot lump Israel together with countries such as China, Iran and the Sudan, especially considering that a lot of the Palestinians misfortune is self inflicted or inflicted by the arabs themselves.

This thread is descending into a generic Israel vs Palestine debate, not good...

Is Israel as oppresive as communist China? No! Does that make them right because they are less bad? No! Your OP basically says that everyone picks on Israel and boo friggety hoo for them. I disagree because I am in no way condoning what Israel has done to the Palis in order to keep the land they took through war in years past. You want sympathy from me for Israel you better be waiting for that cold dell in hell they tell me about. If you can't "lump Israel.." the it would be good to follow your own advise and not lump all "loony left" people together. Perhaps their ideas are divergent from yours but does it necessarily make them loony? We can deplore Israel's abuse of power and might without being left wing as I am not. If being left win means humanistic moralism then maybe I am, but I always thought of myself as a Moderate Republican on the verge of a classic Libertarian. So get out your violin for the Israeli Jews for me as I'm not playing a fricken note.

Because Israel has been doing it bltantly for years makes it okay? This is another example of your logic being "well they're doing it!" Most of us outgrew that logic by the end of grade school.

Cute. You claim that the number of UN resolutions levelled at Israel prove that they're evil; I point out that UN resolutions aren't a good indication of a nation's dedication to human rights and provide evidence to show that the UNHRC is a joke. You respond by whining, attacking my character, and attempting to change the subject away from your clear mistake. How very mature of you.

The time is irrelevant, the point is that there are far worse human rights offenders who are ignored while Israel is subject to a barrage of resolutions. Surely you don't think that it's reasonable for Israel to receive four resolutions while Sudan doesn't even receive one? The bias is obvious, during 2004 the UN Human Rights Commission only convened one emergency meeting: it wasn't about the genocide in Sudan, it was the assassination of Ahmed Yassin. do you really think this is proportionate? What's more, the Palestinian population in Lebanon has been subject to serious discrimination ever since their arrival yet I'm not aware of any UN resolutions concerning the Lebanese government's conduct; if there are any then they're certainly not as numerous as those condemning Israel. Saudi Arabia's been around officially since 1932 and it's always had an atrocious human rights record, why aren't they the target of so many resolutions.

It's obvious that UN resolutions don't give any indication of the relative virtue of a nation.

"But Dad, they did it first!" good argument. :gundge:

Cute. You claim that the number of UN resolutions levelled at Israel prove that they're evil; I point out that UN resolutions aren't a good indication of a nation's dedication to human rights and provide evidence to show that the UNHRC is a joke. You respond by whining, attacking my character, and attempting to change the subject away from your clear mistake. How very mature of you.

No, I asked who has the most UN resolutions broken? I have in no way called Israel evil. Can you find that quote from me? Or aer you arguing with what you want me to say rather than what I do? :cool:

The time is irrelevant, .

When considering the number of resolutions brought, yes.


the point is that there are far worse human rights offenders who are ignored while Israel is subject to a barrage of resolutions. .

Its not a barrage given the lenth of time.


Surely you don't think that it's reasonable for Israel to receive four resolutions while Sudan doesn't even receive one? .

Forty years is a long long time. Secondly, Sudan is acting, however badly, within its own borders as a soverign state. Theres a limit as to what can be done.


The bias is obvious,.

No, it isn't.


Saudi Arabia's been around officially since 1932 and it's always had an atrocious human rights record, why aren't they the target of so many resolutions.,.

Because thats internal within Saudi, while Israel is outside its own borders oppressing the Palestinian population in a colonial enterprise. Or did that dawn on you at all.....

It's obvious that UN resolutions don't give any indication of the relative virtue of a nation.

When you look at the consistent numbers backing them, it may do, however.

Is Israel as oppresive as communist China? No! Does that make them right because they are less bad? No! Your OP basically says that everyone picks on Israel and boo friggety hoo for them. I disagree because I am in no way condoning what Israel has done to the Palis in order to keep the land they took through war in years past. You want sympathy from me for Israel you better be waiting for that cold dell in hell they tell me about. If you can't "lump Israel.." the it would be good to follow your own advise and not lump all "loony left" people together. Perhaps their ideas are divergent from yours but does it necessarily make them loony? We can deplore Israel's abuse of power and might without being left wing as I am not. If being left win means humanistic moralism then maybe I am, but I always thought of myself as a Moderate Republican on the verge of a classic Libertarian. So get out your violin for the Israeli Jews for me as I'm not playing a fricken note.

I'm sick and tired of constantly reposting what already I've said to people who obviously haven't even bothered skim reading the previous pages. If you don't have the sense or the courtesy to read my previous arguments then I'm not composing an essay for you.

Or in Nodinia's words: are you just stupid?

I'll leave you guys to duke it out, this thread has lost all purpouse.

No, I asked who has the most UN resolutions broken? I have in no way called Israel evil. Can you find that quote from me? Or aer you arguing with what you want me to say rather than what I do? :cool:

Given the context I assumed that you felt that the breaking of UN resolutions showed Israel to be bad. If, on the other hand, what you actually meant was "Israel is good because it breaks UN resolutions!" then please tell me. Oh, and given that your previous posts include:

This is another example of your logic being "well they're doing it!" Most of us outgrew that logic by the end of grade school.

"But Dad, they did it first!" good argument. :gundge:

I really wouldn't accuse anyone else of "arguing with what you want me to say". :rolleyes:

I'm sick and tired of constantly reposting what already I've said to people who obviously haven't even bothered skim reading the previous pages. If you don't have the sense or the courtesy to read my previous arguments then I'm not composing an essay for you.

Or in Nodinia's words: are you just stupid?

I'll leave you guys to duke it out, this thread has lost all purpouse.

You seem to believe that too many people are bashing the Jewish Israelis as was presented in your OP. Truly, your other arguments weren't very good and I've read them. Why do you think Nodonia asked you if you were thick or stupid? I respect your rigth to an opinion but you haven't really made a case. They pointed out to you in the last week there have been an equal number of pro and con Israel threads but you blew that off. We pointed out to you that being a leftist doesn't make you dislike what Israel has done, being a person who believes in the equality for all human beings to live freely is what we say, and you blew that off. What would you like us to do? We've disproven both counts and you have the nerve to call another stupid? What are you really trying to say and can you summarize please? Your purpose was to prove that everyone on this board is somehow irrationally biased against Jews and Israel and that's just not so. Your central theme of the thread has been shredded so what can we do for you now?

Given the context I assumed that you felt that the breaking of UN resolutions showed Israel to be bad. If, on the other hand, what you actually meant was "Israel is good because it breaks UN resolutions!" then please tell me. Oh, and given that your previous posts include:





I really wouldn't accuse anyone else of "arguing with what you want me to say". :rolleyes:

YES! ISRAEL IS BAD, not evil. Their breaking of UN resolutions shows them to be in defiance of the world governing body. Are they as bad as the Sudan? NO! As bad as North Korea? NO! What the hell do you want to do for them breaking the rules, give them more money? Excuse the wrong they do because after all they're not as bad as another group? Wrong is still wrong sir and it doesn't change on intesity, duration, or frequency. that is teh point you seem to have missed. 1 life is equal to 1 life in my eyes. 1 Pali dead has the same effect of 1 Israeli dead. Some of you would rather just defend Israel because after all there was the halocaust right? Would you like to give them a free pass to do what they want for the next 500 years because after all they were wronged in the past?

Its not a barrage given the lenth of time.

Four resolutions in a year? Considering that North Korea got only one?

Forty years is a long long time. Secondly, Sudan is acting, however badly, within its own borders as a soverign state. Theres a limit as to what can be done.

Wrong. Human Rights are supposed to transcend national boundaries, that's the whole point. I quote from the UN Human Rights Commission's website:

The main themes addressed by the Commission are: the right to self-determination; racism; the right to development; the question of the violation of human rights in the occupied Arab territories, including Palestine; the question of the violation of human rights and fundamental freedoms in any part of the world; economic, social and cultural rights; civil and political rights, including the questions of torture and detention, disappearances and summary executions, freedom of expression, the independence of the judiciary, impunity and religious intolerance; the human rights of women, children, migrant workers, minorities and displaced persons; indigenous issues; the promotion and protection of human rights, including the work of the Sub-Commission, treaty bodies and national institutions; and advisory services and technical cooperation in the field of human rights.

According to their mandate internal affairs do come under the Commission scrutiny.

No, it isn't.

Yes it is.

Because thats internal within Saudi, while Israel is outside its own borders oppressing the Palestinian population in a colonial enterprise. Or did that dawn on you at all.....

Try reading their mandate, internal and external affairs are completely irrelevant to the Human Rights Commission.

When you look at the consistent numbers backing them, it may do, however.

By your standards then Nazi Germany would be considered to be a staunch defender of Human Rights as long as they didn't invade other countries; you seem to think that the Holocaust, freedom of speech, etc. don't count as human rights abuses as long as they're 'internal affairs'.

You seem to believe that too many people are bashing the Jewish Israelis as was presented in your OP. Truly, your other arguments weren't very good and I've read them. Why do you think Nodonia asked you if you were thick or stupid? I respect your rigth to an opinion but you haven't really made a case. They pointed out to you in the last week there have been an equal number of pro and con Israel threads but you blew that off. We pointed out to you that being a leftist doesn't make you dislike what Israel has done, being a person who believes in the equality for all human beings to live freely is what we say, and you blew that off. What would you like us to do? We've disproven both counts and you have the nerve to call another stupid? What are you really trying to say and can you summarize please? Your purpose was to prove that everyone on this board is somehow irrationally biased against Jews and Israel and that's just not so. Your central theme of the thread has been shredded so what can we do for you now?

Lies! I made clear that I was only refering to Jews in relation to Sovietstan's Israel vs Nazis thread.

Let me summarise my original point and so end this thread, agree with me or not:

I feel that a disproportionate amount of NS General's time is being spent on mainly anti-Israel threads, the creations of which are largely down to the far left. It's my humble opinion that more pressing and deadly issues are being essentially ignored, which is strange because Africans are the ultimate underdog. Somalia, the Sudan and the Congo aren't hot topics here.

There, simple.

YES! ISRAEL IS BAD, not evil. Their breaking of UN resolutions shows them to be in defiance of the world governing body. Are they as bad as the Sudan? NO! As bad as North Korea? NO! What the hell do you want to do for them breaking the rules, give them more money? Excuse the wrong they do because after all they're not as bad as another group? Wrong is still wrong sir and it doesn't change on intesity, duration, or frequency. that is teh point you seem to have missed. 1 life is equal to 1 life in my eyes. 1 Pali dead has the same effect of 1 Israeli dead. Some of you would rather just defend Israel because after all there was the halocaust right? Would you like to give them a free pass to do what they want for the next 500 years because after all they were wronged in the past?

Nice ranting, sadly you seem to be ignoring my points again and instead concentrating on 'what you want me to say'.

If you admit that Israel aren't as bad as North Korea or the Sudan then you must also admit that the number of resolutions broken doesn't indicate which country is better as Israel has more violations than NK or Sudan. This means that your original point is wrong.

None of your arguments concerning the Holocaust, funds for Israel, or the relative value of human life have any relation to what I said.

Four resolutions in a year? Considering that North Korea got only one?.

Yes, particularily given the knoc on effect.



Wrong. Human Rights are supposed to transcend national boundaries, that's the whole point. I quote from the UN Human Rights Commission's website:
?.

Supposed to, yet do not bypass national soverignty. Hence the US prosecuted under 18s seeking the death penalty until recently, for example.


According to their mandate internal affairs do come under the Commission scrutiny.?.

Scruiny, yes. Does that allow them violate national soverignty at will? Rarely if ever.


By your standards then Nazi Germany would be considered to be a staunch defender of Human Rights as long as they didn't invade other countries; you seem to think that the Holocaust, freedom of speech, etc. don't count as human rights abuses as long as they're 'internal affairs'.


An enormous Godwin, as well as a strawman. Where did I justify any abuse?

Nice ranting, sadly you seem to be ignoring my points again and instead concentrating on 'what you want me to say'.

If you admit that Israel aren't as bad as North Korea or the Sudan then you must also admit that the number of resolutions broken doesn't indicate which country is better as Israel has more violations than NK or Sudan. This means that your original point is wrong.

None of your arguments concerning the Holocaust, funds for Israel, or the relative value of human life have any relation to what I said.

You're missing the point. Because Israel is not as shitty as another shitty place does not make it any less shity? id I put that in words that are easily understood. My point about funding was relevant as to why the Arab world hates the US as they are seen as complicit in the murder of Arabs every time Israel does it. The point about life is those UN reolutions were about killing people. You saying that all of those resolutions don't matter means it's all right to kill the brown people because they aren't as important. The number of resultions does signify something even if it is "biased" as you claim. It shows that they are in defiance of the world order as directed by the governing body. Should they be rewarded for not following the rules?

Lies! I made clear that I was only refering to Jews in relation to Sovietstan's Israel vs Nazis thread.

Let me summarise my original point and so end this thread, agree with me or not:

I feel that a disproportionate amount of NS General's time is being spent on mainly anti-Israel threads, the creations of which are largely down to the far left. It's my humble opinion that more pressing and deadly issues are being essentially ignored, which is strange because Africans are the ultimate underdog. Somalia, the Sudan and the Congo aren't hot topics here.

There, simple.

All right fine, they have been discussed in the past but what issue makes the world less safe? Is it the Israeli Pali conflict or the African continents' problems? The first is in the view of the world more often as it spurns the most violence and most military conflicts. We discuss Israel and Palis more because they have more impact. Societstan is now a Msulim and hating the jews seems to be what he likes most. Just ignore and realize not all people are like that.

All right fine, they have been discussed in the past but what issue makes the world less safe? Is it the Israeli Pali conflict or the African continents' problems? The first is in the view of the world more often as it spurns the most violence and most military conflicts. We discuss Israel and Palis more because they have more impact. Societstan is now a Msulim and hating the jews seems to be what he likes most. Just ignore and realize not all people are like that.

I know that, thank you very much. Doesn't change the fact that the thread actually exists and that people agreed with Sovietstan.

I know that, thank you very much. Doesn't change the fact that the thread actually exists and that people agreed with Sovietstan.

And there's wackos of all shapes, shades, colors, and ideals... The simple point I am making is that Israel deserves to be criticized much of the time, as well as their enemies. My opinion is that the situation in Darfur is the single most hanous humanitarian crisis we've seen in 70 years. That problem howeve is not related o what got my 2 friends killed working for Cantor Fitzgerald in NYC on 9-11-01. It's about relevence and impact on the rest of the world and in that respect Israel presents a problem.