NationStates Jolt Archive

Mogadishu (January 01, 2007) AS THE Islamic Courts fled the town of Jowhar, 50 miles northwest of Mogadishu, late last week, the DJs on Radio Jowhar did something they had not been able to do for six months: they played pop music. For Jowhar residents it was confirmation that the Courts, who had introduced sharia law, banned music, films and football matches, had been defeated. Young men openly chewed qat, the mild stimulant the Courts had also banned.

Somali government troops, backed by at least 4000 Ethiopian soldiers, overran the Union of Islamic Courts (UIC), which had controlled large swathes of central and southern Somalia, including the capital, Mogadishu. Just four days after Ethiopia's prime minister, Meles Zenawi, announced that Ethiopian troops were inside Somalia, those soldiers were entering Mogadishu. The Courts fled to Kismaayo, a port town in the southeast and their final stronghold.

But the UIC's defeat has also brought chaos. Mogadishu, once known as the world's most dangerous city, may soon be seeking to reclaim its title. Checkpoints have returned, as have the souped-up 4x4s armed with rocket-propelled grenade launchers known as "technicals". Rival clan warlords, who once fought for control of every single street in the capital, are now doing the same all over again.

But asked to choose between pop and security, most Somalis would plump for the latter. The Islamic Courts, dismissed by the US as "terrorists", brought a semblance of law and order to towns that have known no such thing in the 15 years Somalia has been without a central government. Checkpoints and technicals became a rare sight in Mogadishu. Residents reported that they felt safe walking around the capital, something that had not been true when the city was run by rival warlords.

Mogadishu now appears to be back in the hands of the same warlords.

Sources: YahooNEWS/Newsquest_Limited/OcceanNEWS©2004-2007
my2cents: here we go again.. proxi War it is.

my_other2cents: I wish thay could have both.. pop music AND free to walk safely on the streets..AND world Cup Broadcasting.

But not-risking-your-life is way more important than pop @ the Radio.. or the WC @ the Bars.

And being forced to follow a strict set of religious rules or else is a good way to live as well... Right?

And being forced to follow a strict set of religious rules or else is a good way to live as well... Right?of course not.

dont be silly.

So the US is sponsoring a brutal oppressive regime in order to stop another perceived oppressive regime from coming to power? Interesting...

And as usual the plight of the Somalians will be ignored by the US with it's hand it's in ears singing 'terrorists' lalalalalala '9/11' lalalalalala 'al-quida' lalalalalala

*sigh* This is why I supported the Islamic courts. Not because I thought they were great, but because I knew they would be better than the warlords. Though I heard people on NSG claiming that wasn't the case towards the end when they were increasingly strict in the application of sharia law.

Though I heard people on NSG claiming that wasn't the case towards the end when they were increasingly strict in the application of sharia law.
It was never really a case of "they" as some sort of unified entity. It was a union of individual courts, run by individual scholars. Every one of those scholars had different views on the issues they decided on in legal matters, and that went into everything those courts did.

So there were the nutcases who ended up getting people in trouble for watching football, and there were those who got drug dealers off the streets but allowed porn to be shown in the local cinema.

It would've been interesting to say the least to see how it would have turned out, but I don't think they'll come back in that fashion. It is likely that Islamists will make a comeback as soon as the Ethiopians leave, but it will likely be a militarised, more extreme bunch of guys.

The Islamic Courts, dismissed by the US as "terrorists", brought a semblance of law and order to towns that have known no such thing in the 15 years Somalia has been without a central government.

And how many people have they killed - both while in power and while during power?

Or is oppressive violence by a government somehow better then violence by warlords?

But not-risking-your-life is way more important than pop @ the Radio..

Solitary confinement is safe, too.

It was never really a case of "they" as some sort of unified entity. It was a union of individual courts, run by individual scholars. Every one of those scholars had different views on the issues they decided on in legal matters, and that went into everything those courts did.

So there were the nutcases who ended up getting people in trouble for watching football, and there were those who got drug dealers off the streets but allowed porn to be shown in the local cinema.

It would've been interesting to say the least to see how it would have turned out, but I don't think they'll come back in that fashion. It is likely that Islamists will make a comeback as soon as the Ethiopians leave, but it will likely be a militarised, more extreme bunch of guys.Oh, interesting. I knew they were a union as such. I wasn't sure if that meant there were fairly strong connections between the courts in different countries or that there were a union of courts within the country.

I thought each court would be run by a group of individuals over a large area.

But what you say makes more sense. Individual scholars find an area where they will set up shop as the local judge. I wonder how they adjudicate between different courts and jurisdictions. Can there jurisdictions overlap, and it works on whichever court is asked for is used, with no appeals. Or are the scholars territorial and do not like others encroaching on their city, set of villages or whatever.

I wonder how they adjudicate between different courts and jurisdictions. Can there jurisdictions overlap, and it works on whichever court is asked for is used, with no appeals. Or are the scholars territorial and do not like others encroaching on their city, set of villages or whatever.
Well, they started off as being religious scholars who sat in their mosques, and people would approach them and ask for judgements on matters of importance.

That turned out to be a rather good business opportunity, so they formed private courts (it's the anarchist's dream, really) which took money in exchange for judgements that ended up being accepted by both parties.

As that took off and became more popular, different Islamic Courts in cities and regions made contact with each other and made agreements on things like prisoner exchanges, extraditions and so on.

At the same time the Courts started branching into other areas with all that extra money, like education (strictly Qur'an of course) and healthcare. Out of supporters and hired goons they formed a security force which could also prevent crime rather than just punish it.

So the courts gained strong positions in society, and at the same time they reinforced their bonds with each other, electing top representatives and so on and establishing a Shura Council. However, the independence of the individual courts on legal and religious matters remained.

So these reps and the Shura Council ultimately came to the conclusion that it would be a good idea to restore order to Somalia and establish a proper government. So they got their security forces together and formed a militia. Which got them into conflict with the warlords, who they defeated one after the other.

Meanwhile, the Baidoa "government" was doing nothing. A bunch of Somalians who'd spent most of their lives in Ethiopia or Kenya and a bunch of warlords crying for legitimacy all stuck together in an old warehouse busy bitching about each other.

The Islamic Courts Union saw them as just another faction they had to eliminate to establish a central authority. But when they attacked, Ethiopia decided this wasn't in their interest (that country being a big fan of the Baidoa government only since its man was installed as Prez) and helped defend Baidoa.

So the reps of the UIC condemned Ethiopia and declared Holy War on Baidoa and Ethiopia (methinks they probably did the same against other warlords they fought against before, but we didn't hear about it since it's not really important). I'm not sure who said things about a Greater Somalia and whether that person was important in the UIC, but someone did, which is never a good thing to do given the past of the region.

And the rest, as they say, is history.

The US was involved mainly by sending millions of dollars to the warlords who fought the UIC initially, and apparently now by helping with training Ethiopian troops, and by extension Baidoa militias (and the warlords they install back in the places the UIC took from them).

I suppose it's all something of a practical illustration why anarchism is a bit of a pipe dream, if you ask me.

Foreign invasions tend to be a very bad way to solve problems.

This one seemed to have been exercised pretty competently, but that's not likely to last, especially not with indications of an insurgency brewing.

Foreign invasions tend to be a very bad way to solve problems.


Funny.

It worked for Cambodia.

Thanks for the post Neu Leonstein.

dp

I'll take pop music and a flak jacket please. :)

Foreign invasions tend to be a very bad way to solve problems. I agree..
.
This one seemed to have been exercised pretty competently.:confused:
intersting statement... any sources?

I'll take pop music and a flak jacket please. :)

why not have disco and rollerblades?

why not have disco?

-Staying Alive-

#1 single Top of the Somalian music charts.. all year. ;)

Top of the Somalian charts.. all year. ;)

the anthem of the disco international (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4lPA5G0DOo)

the anthem of the disco international (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4lPA5G0DOo)*sees its a youtube *

I am not at home.. (they have dial-up here)
So I will download this when I get to my cable-modem.

they have dial-up here

:eek: savages!

:confused:
intersting statement... any sources?

Just an observation. They pushed back the ICU and took the capital without too much trouble.

Funny.

It worked for Cambodia.

I take it you mean the late 1978-early 1979 Vietnamese invasion. That didn't solve a problem, it simply replaced one totalitarian dictatorship with a much milder, but still horrific, totalitarian dictatorship.

:eek: savages!:D

that nothing.. last week we stayed at my Grand Mothers... She dont have the Interweb at all :eek: :eek: :confused: :eek:

So long as the US doesn't have to go back there let it rot.

Just an observation. They pushed back the ICU and took the capital without too much trouble.vini vidi missi complissi

http://www.btlonline.org/bush-mission-accomplished.jpg

I take it you mean the late 1978-early 1979 Vietnamese invasion. That didn't solve a problem, it simply replaced one totalitarian dictatorship with a much milder, but still horrific, totalitarian dictatorship.

It stopped the mass slaughter of hundreds of thousands of people.

I've been following the situation in Somalia since before the "Baidoa government" moved out of Nairobi and before the UIC kicked the warlords out of Mogadishu.

In all the media reports about the current situation, what strikes me is what's never mentioned: Somaliland.

For the sake of anyone who's even remotely interested, a quick overview I wrote for another forum a few days ago:

As you can see on this map (http://www.refugeesinternational.org/files/2903_image2_somalilandmap_main.jpg), Somaliland, a stable, independent democratic republic which officially does not exist, comprises the north-western part of Somalia. Somaliland (capital: Hargeisa) was initially a seperate country, and is a former British colony. It joined Somalia, then seperated again in the 1980s, fighting a successful but bloody war for independence. That Somaliland is de facto independent is unquestionable, but it is recognised by no-one... which is why you won't find Somaliland on any map.

For more on that issue, see this interesting BBC report (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/this_world/4491257.stm), this other BBC report (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4372189.stm), the BBC's factsheet on Somaliland (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/country_profiles/3794847.stm) and/or the official website of the Somaliland government (http://www.somalilandgov.com/).

During recent news reports on the situation in Somalia, what struck me was that Somaliland was never mentioned. Therefore I decided to see what the Somaliland media perspective on the situation was. From the Somaliland.org (http://www.somaliland.org/) news website, I bring you these reports:

* Does the UIC present a threat to Somaliland? (http://www.somaliland.org/ns.asp?ID=06101600) (October 2006)
* Somaliland does not recognise Somali President (http://www.somaliland.org/ns.asp?ID=04101702) (2004)
* an article (http://www.somaliland.org/ns.asp?ID=06121500) on Somali President Yusuf's mid-December statement that peace between his government and the UIC was impossible
* "After The Ethiopian Victory, What’s Next For Somalia?" (http://www.somaliland.org/ns.asp?ID=06122909), 29th December, 2006
* "Thousands Greet Somalia's PM In Capital" (http://www.somaliland.org/ns.asp?ID=06122900), 29th December, 2006
* "Why The United States Should Recognize Somaliland’s Independence" (http://www.somaliland.org/ns.asp?ID=06122000), 20th December, 2006
* A British Somalilander's view on the conflict in Somalia (http://www.somaliland.org/opinions.asp?ID=06122902)

Meanwhile, in the Somaliland Times (http://www.somalilandtimes.net/):
* Editorial: "Ethiopia's Moral Responsability" (http://www.somalilandtimes.net/sl/2006/258/16.shtml)
* "Parliament Condemns [Somali Prime Minister] Gedi’s Hostile Comment On Somaliland" (http://www.somalilandtimes.net/sl/2006/258/3.shtml)
* "US Urges Inclusive Dialogue On Somalia’s Future" (http://www.somalilandtimes.net/sl/2006/258/8.shtml)
* "Somali Gov't Troops Roll Into Mogadishu" (http://www.somalilandtimes.net/sl/2006/258/20.0.shtml)
* "Islamists Lose … For Now" (http://www.somalilandtimes.net/sl/2006/258/091.shtml)
* "Canadian MP Urges Support For Somaliland" (http://www.somalilandtimes.net/sl/2006/258/201.shtml)
* "A War of Miscalculation" (http://www.somalilandtimes.net/sl/2006/258/280.shtml)

Radio Somaliland (http://www.radiosomaliland.com/) provides links to other news media with news on Somalia and Somaliland.

It stopped the mass slaughter of hundreds of thousands of people.

It still caused enormous loss of life, just not on as great a scale as it would have been had Pol Pot remained in power.

You heard Sovietstan, the Islamists will be back when Allah pulls his finger out. None of this heretical pop music shall survive on the airwaves

I don't think it is exactly a surprise that life is better under an Islamic government than not.

I don't think it is exactly a surprise that life is better under an Islamic government than not.

Why don't you ask those child soldiers that the ICU conscripted to fight under the will of Allah.

Why don't you ask the people forced to pray to a religion they don't follow under the will of Allah.

Why don't you ask those child soldiers that the ICU conscripted to fight under the will of Allah.

Why don't you ask the people forced to pray to a religion they don't follow under the will of Allah.

Why don't you ask the average person on the street which they perfer? Why dont you ask Muslims what they prefer?

The hypocrisy of the US in supporting these murderous warlords who oppress, in order to stop another 'perceived' oppression from taking over, is most shameful indeed. It now seems most evident that the US and Ethiopia have no interest in helping the plight of the Somalian people, but just want to keep the killing going to sate a religious hatred against those who tried to establish order over killing and chaos in the capital.

Hail Pinochet and Ngo Dihn Diem!

Why don't you ask the average person on the street which they perfer? Why dont you ask Muslims what they prefer?

So you've done that? You've talked to all the "average people"? Howabout the muslims who liked to go to the movies? Why do you refuse to answer my questions? You claimed the ICU were guided by Allah and denounced "foreign" troops yet the ICU are kidnapping children to fight and their ranks are filled w/ foreigners.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/africa/article2119040.ece

To cheering and waving crowds, the troops drove into Kismaayo after clearing roads set with land mines. Earlier, the Islamic fighters had abandoned the southern coastal city, fleeing a 13-day military onslaught by government troops backed by Ethiopian tanks and MiG warplanes.

So you've done that? You've talked to all the "average people"? Howabout the muslims who liked to go to the movies? Why do you refuse to answer my questions?

I haven't talked to them anymore than you have talked to the people you claim are oppressed or forced to do things they don't want to do.

You claimed the ICU were guided by Allah and denounced "foreign" troops yet the ICU are kidnapping children to fight and their ranks are filled w/ foreigners.

By guided I mean they are protected. Also I highly doubt they are "kidnapping" children. So long as foreigners(Ethiopians) are in Somalia, foreigners have a right to fight along side their Muslim brothers.

And being forced to follow a strict set of religious rules or else is a good way to live as well... Right?

There is always a terrible death instead.

I haven't talked to them anymore than you have talked to the people you claim are oppressed or forced to do things they don't want to do.

But you claimed they were better off.



By guided I mean they are protected. Also I highly doubt they are "kidnapping" children. So long as foreigners(Ethiopians) are in Somalia, foreigners have a right to fight along side their Muslim brothers.

BS. Now you're flat out lying. Guided does not mean "protected". So now you deny that there were foreigners in there BEFORE the Ethiopians (another flat out lie) and that they aren't conscripting children to fight which you accepted they were earlier. Do we need to start pulling up quotes?

I don't think it is exactly a surprise that life is better under an Islamic government than not.

I'm curious. Why don't you go live in a muslim country? Saudi is always looking for foreign workers, and it sounds like you're just the sort of chap they are looking for.

And on the plus side you could go to Mecca for the weekend.

Somalia's Prime Minister, Ali Mohamed Gedi, offered an amnesty to the hundreds of Islamic fighters fleeing south toward the Kenyan border, 100 miles away. That's nice.

But, he said, leaders of the Islamic group and the foreign fighters believed to be among their ranks will face justice.
Ho hum, like that's going to happen.

I'm curious. Why don't you go live in a muslim country? Saudi is always looking for foreign workers, and it sounds like you're just the sort of chap they are looking for.

And on the plus side you could go to Mecca for the weekend.

Funny you should mention that. There's a good chance I'm going to Jordan later this year or next. I would certainly like to live in a Muslim country because I know its hard to explain, but I just feel so much more comfortable around Muslims. I feel more at peace for whatever reason.

Funny you should mention that. There's a good chance I'm going to Jordan later this year or next. I would certainly like to live in a Muslim country because I know its hard to explain, but I just feel so much more comfortable around Muslims. I feel more at peace for whatever reason.

National identity issues, fascinating.

Okay, if we support the islamic government what happens 10-15 years down the road? People get used to peace, see human rights being violated and Bush is blamed for those abuses. Similar to something like afghanistan and supporting taliban. You support it in the beginning and when it goes wrong down the road it is the other sides fault. Typical.

Okay, if we support the islamic government what happens 10-15 years down the road. People get used to peace, see human rights being violated and Bush is blamed for those abuses. Similar to something like afghanistan and supporting taliban. You support it in the beginning and when it goes wrong down the road it is the other sides fault. Typical.

Ignoring your totally unsourced statement comparing them with the Taliban, and unproven statement that they have oppressive goals, your saying that if the islamic regime is good for 15 years then goes bad, it will be better than the US paid warlords to rape the country for a few more decades and murder innocents while the US puts it's hands on it's ears singing 'lalalalalala terrorists lalalalalala 9/11 lalalalalalala al-quida lalalalalalala islam is evil lalalalalla'

Ignoring your totally unsourced statement comparing them with the Taliban, and unproven statement that they have oppressive goals, your saying that if the islamic regime is good for 15 years then goes bad, it will be better than the US paid warlords to rape the country for a few more decades and murder innocents while the US puts it's hands on it's ears singing 'lalalalalala terrorists lalalalalala 9/11 lalalalalalala al-quida lalalalalalala islam is evil lalalalalla'

I never said that i wanted to pay any warlords. We should either completely intervene which will not happen or leave it up to the U.N. since the the rest of the world is so much better at everything than us:rolleyes:. It was also unproven that the taliban and saddam had oppressive goals. That turned out real well. The islamic regime will be bad for the entire time but you will only start complaining after 15 years because you will have forgotten about what it was like before and it will be the Repubs fault.

Mogadishu (January 01, 2007) AS THE Islamic Courts fled the town of Jowhar, 50 miles northwest of Mogadishu, late last week, the DJs on Radio Jowhar did something they had not been able to do for six months: they played pop music. For Jowhar residents it was confirmation that the Courts, who had introduced sharia law, banned music, films and football matches, had been defeated. Young men openly chewed qat, the mild stimulant the Courts had also banned.

Somali government troops, backed by at least 4000 Ethiopian soldiers, overran the Union of Islamic Courts (UIC), which had controlled large swathes of central and southern Somalia, including the capital, Mogadishu. Just four days after Ethiopia's prime minister, Meles Zenawi, announced that Ethiopian troops were inside Somalia, those soldiers were entering Mogadishu. The Courts fled to Kismaayo, a port town in the southeast and their final stronghold.

But the UIC's defeat has also brought chaos. Mogadishu, once known as the world's most dangerous city, may soon be seeking to reclaim its title. Checkpoints have returned, as have the souped-up 4x4s armed with rocket-propelled grenade launchers known as "technicals". Rival clan warlords, who once fought for control of every single street in the capital, are now doing the same all over again.

But asked to choose between pop and security, most Somalis would plump for the latter. The Islamic Courts, dismissed by the US as "terrorists", brought a semblance of law and order to towns that have known no such thing in the 15 years Somalia has been without a central government. Checkpoints and technicals became a rare sight in Mogadishu. Residents reported that they felt safe walking around the capital, something that had not been true when the city was run by rival warlords.

Mogadishu now appears to be back in the hands of the same warlords.

Sources: YahooNEWS/Newsquest_Limited/OcceanNEWS©2004-2007
my2cents: here we go again.. proxi War it is.


(below is from the thread, Why are Americans scared? in these fine forums)

True story: Conversation I overheard on a Boston subway train among two American college students and a student from Somalia. That's Somalia, people. The Somalian guy was telling them about a cultural studies trip across the US that his exchange class from Somalia had taken.

Somalian Guy: So we ended up in Tulsa [OK].

Americans: TULSA! What the hell were you doing there?

Somalian Guy: I don't know, but I will never go back there. There was nothing in that place. And the country around it, it was so poor. We were driving on a road made of dirt, and it went nowhere.

One American: What did you learn about the US in Somalia? Did you think we didn't have rural areas, that it was all urban and built-up?

Somalian Guy: No, we knew there were rural areas, but we had no idea it was that bad.

So much for Somalia being better than Oklahoma...

So much for Somalia being better than Oklahoma...

Much for my not caring about Oklahoma; it's not that bad. :D

He is lucky he didn't go down the Shenandoah! ;)

Okay, if we support the islamic government what happens 10-15 years down the road? People get used to peace, see human rights being violated and Bush is blamed for those abuses. Similar to something like afghanistan and supporting taliban. You support it in the beginning and when it goes wrong down the road it is the other sides fault. Typical.see.. this one problem with US.. with our current mindset.. and specially with our politician's mindset.

US(we) feel we must "support" one side or the other..
US(we) feel we must "allow" or "disallow" one side..
US(we) dont seem to be able to keep our noses out of trouble..
(when I say "US".. I mean the average citizen/politician.. not all citizens)

see.. this one problem with US.. with our current mindset.. and specially with our politician's mindset.

US(we) feel we must "support" one side or the other..
US(we) feel we must "allow" or "disallow" one side..
US(we) dont seem to be able to keep our noses out of trouble..
(when I say "US".. I mean the average citizen/politician.. not all citizens)

One of the problems with the politicians and our lack of foresight is that they see only 2, 4, or 8 years down the road... and then we inherit other administrations Foreign policy messes (like Kennedy getting Vietnam from Eisenhower or Eisenhower getting Korea from Truman, etc, etc)

One of the problems with the politicians and our lack of foresight is that they see only 2, 4, or 8 years down the road... and then we inherit other administrations Foreign policy messes (like Kennedy getting Vietnam from Eisenhower or Eisenhower getting Korea from Truman, etc, etc)

It also goes with the voters.

"Hey he will be gone in 1-4 years so we will just ride the storm out......

It also goes with the voters.

"Hey he will be gone in 1-4 years so we will just ride the storm out......

No argument on that end either...