NationStates Jolt Archive

I've hated George W. Bush as a politician since he assumed the role of President of the United States in 2001. However, I have felt ashamed to proclaim this belief publicly and privately ever since 2004, when punk-pop band Green Day, High School drop-outs and writers of awe-inspiring songs about chronic masturbation and marajuana binges, decided they wanted to "get like political dude" and released the vastly overrated "American Idiot." That same year, schlocky biased hack Michael Moore made a (shockingly) schlocky biased movie about Bush. Since that time, an influx of uninformed, mindless idiots have been spouting off their hatred for Bush based on vague, miniscule reasonings without any sort of facts or political beliefs to back themselves up. This had the inevitable consequence of giving neo-cons more ammunition than ever, and making anyone with a legitimate hatred of Bush look bad. Now, I would like to know: am I the only one who is sick and tired of these losers? Personally, I would really love it if they would shut the fuck up and continue to be useless without pretending to know shit, thus allowing me to express my disdain for Bush without having to prove that I am not a mindless Green Day junkie.

Yes, Green Day are teh fail, as are many of their fans.

I couldn't agree more.

Nope you aren't alone I completly agree with you. However the Bush supporters seem to have it a lot worse then us anti-Bush people. I heard my friend's grandma voted for Bush because she thought he was fulfilling a biblical prophacy.

It's these losers that give the rest of the left a bad name.

I'm not a bush hater, I just think he's stupid. I have more important things to worry about in my country than care so much about him.

He amuses me, and I think he's bad for the country.

Green day are mass produced crap, pretending not to be.

First off. Green Day are crap.

Second off, I'm fine with anyone who hates Bush being vocal about it. It provides a force with which to sweep the far right out of office. I'm not bothered that many of them don't know why to hate him, so long as they hate him. In a democracy, morons happen. In fact, in a democracy, morons rule. It's basically a rule. The best we can do is hope the idiots fall out on our side, rather than the other one.

THE BILL OF RIGHTS
Amendments 1-10 of the Constitution of the United States of America


Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

THE BILL OF RIGHTS
Amendments 1-10 of the Constitution of the United States of America


Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Yes, because this topic clearly advocates the government-mandated censoring of Green Day, Michael Moore, and their fans.

Listen to much "American Idiot", New Callixtina?

Yes, because this topic clearly advocates the government-mandated censoring of Green Day, Michael Moore, and their fans.

Yes no one is advocating that at all... no one *shifty glance*

THE BILL OF RIGHTS
Amendments 1-10 of the Constitution of the United States of America


Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

What is that in answer to? I assume you're enlarging or countering something said on this thread.

Yeah, it does really piss me off, actually.

"Michael Moore says he's a baddy. I don't know why, but this is slightly radical - AWESOME, DUDE!"
"Yo, like Green Day said he's a baddy. Let's get him, dudes!"

Yeah... nice one there, morons. Care to actually give any reasons about why he's crap, or will you try and vainly rebel, whilst filling the rich, old, white CEOs' pockets with every Green Day and Moore purchase?

It makes me a bit sad to see people lapping up Moore and co. the same way that the people on the other side of the spectrum are with Bush, really.



Anyway, it's not Bush people should be hating (although he is an easy target), it's really Cheney, who's pulling the strings.

The whole "make Bush look like a total dumbarse so that we can get the subtler and yet more laws slip through, followed up by some kind of easy-to-demolish anti-Middle East rhetoric" thing seems to have worked really nicely.

What is that in answer to? I assume you're enlarging or countering something said on this thread.
Probably a 15-year old Green Day fan, in all likelihood *sighs*

Anyway, it's not Bush people should be hating (although he is an easy target), it's really Cheney, who's pulling the strings.

Because everyone loves Cheny!

Even though his approval rating was at 17% and Bush's was 33%.

Probably a 15-year old Green Day fan, in all likelihood *sighs*

Maybe the quoted that in one of their 'songs' and said that bush is trying to keep them down.

Sigh, it is true that he's being used as a distraction, "Hey guys, look at this guy fucking it up, don't look at these immoral and inconstitutional laws we're putting through"

And of course, the "Anti-Bush"ers like Green Day do naught but help.

Because everyone loves Cheny!

Even though his approval rating was at 17% and Bush's was 33%.
Well yes, but people slate Bush rather than him.

Well yes, but people slate Bush rather than him.

Not really, everyone thinks Cheny's the emperor and George is a dumber, less cool, darth vader.

Something like that.

Because everyone loves Cheny!

Even though his approval rating was at 17%

That's almost 20!

First off. Green Day are crap.

Second off, I'm fine with anyone who hates Bush being vocal about it. It provides a force with which to sweep the far right out of office. I'm not bothered that many of them don't know why to hate him, so long as they hate him. In a democracy, morons happen. In fact, in a democracy, morons rule. It's basically a rule. The best we can do is hope the idiots fall out on our side, rather than the other one.

So your trying to tell me that all the politicians who have been elected under the democrats banner are morons?

I've hated George W. Bush as a politician since he assumed the role of President of the United States in 2001. However, I have felt ashamed to proclaim this belief publicly and privately ever since 2004, when punk-pop band Green Day, High School drop-outs and writers of awe-inspiring songs about chronic masturbation and marajuana binges, decided they wanted to "get like political dude" and released the vastly overrated "American Idiot." That same year, schlocky biased hack Michael Moore made a (shockingly) schlocky biased movie about Bush. Since that time, an influx of uninformed, mindless idiots have been spouting off their hatred for Bush based on vague, miniscule reasonings without any sort of facts or political beliefs to back themselves up. This had the inevitable consequence of giving neo-cons more ammunition than ever, and making anyone with a legitimate hatred of Bush look bad. Now, I would like to know: am I the only one who is sick and tired of these losers? Personally, I would really love it if they would shut the fuck up and continue to be useless without pretending to know shit, thus allowing me to express my disdain for Bush without having to prove that I am not a mindless Green Day
junkie.

no matter what you may think of Green Day's musical ability, they do have the right to express their opinions

Michael Moore....in a country where litigation is nearly the national sport why has no one taken Moore to court for libel or slander if his claims are untrue?

I've hated George W. Bush as a politician since he assumed the role of President of the United States in 2001. However, I have felt ashamed to proclaim this belief publicly and privately ever since 2004, when punk-pop band Green Day, High School drop-outs and writers of awe-inspiring songs about chronic masturbation and marajuana binges, decided they wanted to "get like political dude" and released the vastly overrated "American Idiot." That same year, schlocky biased hack Michael Moore made a (shockingly) schlocky biased movie about Bush. Since that time, an influx of uninformed, mindless idiots have been spouting off their hatred for Bush based on vague, miniscule reasonings without any sort of facts or political beliefs to back themselves up. This had the inevitable consequence of giving neo-cons more ammunition than ever, and making anyone with a legitimate hatred of Bush look bad. Now, I would like to know: am I the only one who is sick and tired of these losers? Personally, I would really love it if they would shut the fuck up and continue to be useless without pretending to know shit, thus allowing me to express my disdain for Bush without having to prove that I am not a mindless Green Day junkie.


Yes. Once upon a time only the well-informed, socially far-sighted, and the intuitivly acute hated George W. Bush. He struck the average disinterested political observer as a charming fellow with a wholesome folksiness about him that made him seem trustworthy. To the rest of us he seemed like an arrogant, spoiled, and uninformed incompotent.

Since then it has become more and more obvious how bad he is. Since then it has become almost impossible to find someone so stupid, so uninformed, and so dense that they cannot see Bush for what he really is. It has gotten to the point that, as I've pointed out before, even my 15 month old daughter could see what a horrible person he is.

Yes, as time goes by the caliber of those who agree with those who were previously dismissed as Cassandras by the hoi poloi are going to be more and more crude because those are the people who used to believe that Bush was OK. Remember when Gore was running against Bush? Did you pay attention to who Howard Stern, champion of the uninformed masses, was backing? He changed his tune pretty quickly when he realized how bad Bush was, but only because it affected him personally.

Don't think of it as a bad thing that Bush's detractors are getting dumber and dumber, or that they're giving credence to Bush's supporters. Bush's supporters never had much credence. That's why they invent so much of it out of nothing (seriously! Mocking Gore for claiming to be the inspiration for the hero of Love Story when he actually was!??? WTF!). And while the average quality of the anti-Bush squad may be going down, it's only because he increasing obviousness of Bush's incompotence has created a lower standard for a demographic that was once credibly derided as "elitist," when the resource that they had special access to was good judgement and insight.

Green Day are corporate shills. They exist to give the normal populace their alloted amount of "rebellion", just enough so people don't think that massive, evil corporations control most forms of media in America.

I've hated George W. Bush as a politician since he assumed the role of President of the United States in 2001. However, I have felt ashamed to proclaim this belief publicly and privately ever since 2004, when punk-pop band Green Day, High School drop-outs and writers of awe-inspiring songs about chronic masturbation and marajuana binges, decided they wanted to "get like political dude" and released the vastly overrated "American Idiot." That same year, schlocky biased hack Michael Moore made a (shockingly) schlocky biased movie about Bush. Since that time, an influx of uninformed, mindless idiots have been spouting off their hatred for Bush based on vague, miniscule reasonings without any sort of facts or political beliefs to back themselves up. This had the inevitable consequence of giving neo-cons more ammunition than ever, and making anyone with a legitimate hatred of Bush look bad. Now, I would like to know: am I the only one who is sick and tired of these losers? Personally, I would really love it if they would shut the fuck up and continue to be useless without pretending to know shit, thus allowing me to express my disdain for Bush without having to prove that I am not a mindless Green Day junkie.

I'd say try some flowery poetry, but that might not help here.
Perhaps interpretive dance, or mime?

Nope you aren't alone I completly agree with you. However the Bush supporters seem to have it a lot worse then us anti-Bush people. I heard my friend's grandma voted for Bush because she thought he was fulfilling a biblical prophacy.

A couple of people refused to vote for Gore because he was the
"Anti Christ".

Seriously people believed that.

So your trying to tell me that all the politicians who have been elected under the democrats banner are morons?

Yes.

Most people are, when it comes to politics. Most politicians are manipulative, power hungry, and cunning, but not particularly wise or well-guided. Democracy is rule by the moronic. The best you can hope is that the morons fall out the way that you want them to.

A couple of people refused to vote for Gore because he was the
"Anti Christ".

Seriously people believed that.

I thought the anti christ was supposed to be charismatic and charming, not an android who invented the internet. Er more appropriately funded the guy who helped think up the idea of the internet.

50% voted for him in '04, and his approval rating was at 38% a mere year later. That 12% should be trying to kill themselves right about now.

wow, you're just a whole big bundle of self importance, aren't ya?

no matter what you may think of Green Day's musical ability, they do have the right to express their opinions

Michael Moore....in a country where litigation is nearly the national sport why has no one taken Moore to court for libel or slander if his claims are untrue?
First point: no shit, Sherlock. Thanks for the lesson in American Government, but I really don't like being placated like I'm a brainless teenaged punk who worships Green Day.

Second point: He actually is (or at least was) being taken to court for misrepresenting the views of a soldier he interviewed. Look it up. Secondly, he distorts the facts in order to make his point. Example: Charleton Heston, former head of the NRA, held events in Littleton, Colorado and again in a Michigan city both not soon after acts of gun violence had occurred in each of those places. After telling the audience this in voice-over, he showed a clip of Heston holding up a rifle and proclaiming, "from my cold dead hands." As it turns out, the footage was taken from an event taken at a completely different time and in a completely different context (the gun was given on behalf of an award or recognition of some sort). That just furthers his agenda of making people who oppose gun control look mean, but does not necessarily do great damage to Heston's reputation. It's not worth suing over, especially when you consider the fact that Moore has no credit with anyone other than slack-jawed, brainwashed liberals.

First point: no shit, Sherlock. Thanks for the lesson in American Government, but I really don't like being placated like I'm a brainless teenaged punk who worships Green Day.

No, I'm guessing more like a self important teenage emo who writes in his diary...erm..excuse me, journal about how stupid the world is, and how when he turns 18 he's SO out of here.

No, I'm guessing more like a self important teenage emo who writes in his diary...erm..excuse me, journal about how stupid the world is, and how when he turns 18 he's SO out of here.
Wow, I just wrecked because somebody called me an "emo." Your intellectual contributions to the discussion have been imperative.

Wow, I just wrecked because somebody called me an "emo." Your intellectual contributions to the discussion have been imperative.

yup, I was right.

yup, I was right.
Dude...like...harsh.

Dude...like...harsh.

yes yes you're very smart, we all realize it. Here, have a cookie.

yes yes you're very smart, we all realize it. Here, have a cookie.

Thanks, man. I love cookies. Except from major douchebag Hitler machines like George Bush!!!! *turns on stero* "PRO-AMERICA ANTI-BUSH OHHH-OHHH-OHHH!!!"

First point: no shit, Sherlock. Thanks for the lesson in American Government, but I really don't like being placated like I'm a brainless teenaged punk who worships Green Day.

Second point: He actually is (or at least was) being taken to court for misrepresenting the views of a soldier he interviewed. Look it up. Secondly, he distorts the facts in order to make his point. Example: Charleton Heston, former head of the NRA, held events in Littleton, Colorado and again in a Michigan city both not soon after acts of gun violence had occurred in each of those places. After telling the audience this in voice-over, he showed a clip of Heston holding up a rifle and proclaiming, "from my cold dead hands." As it turns out, the footage was taken from an event taken at a completely different time and in a completely different context (the gun was given on behalf of an award or recognition of some sort). That just furthers his agenda of making people who oppose gun control look mean, but does not necessarily do great damage to Heston's reputation. It's not worth suing over, especially when you consider the fact that Moore has no credit with anyone other than slack-jawed, brainwashed liberals.


More importantly, and to add to it, to prove slander or libel against a public figure in our country is almost impossible, unless they can prove malicious intent to ruin the financial livelyhood of that public figure. Most of the time, the defendant (that would be Moore in a case like this) will claim either artistic license or that it was a parody. And get away with it.

Where it doesn't work so much is in the case of a private person (not a public figure) hence why the soldier who was "misquoted" by Moore had a pretty good chance at winning an award against Moore. Didn't Moore settle that one after vowing to fight it? (Honestly I don't remember... anyone...)

Please to be realizing, I voted for Bush once... in '04. He's smarter than most people give him credit for, (you don't graduate from Harvard Business School on your name, no matter what some of you think), he has screwed up, sometimes not pushing hard enough, sometimes doing the wrong thing... but at least he's doing something... unlike some others out there. This isn't to defend, simply to point out that some of us Libertarians who float around on both sides look at the best choice every time, even if both are turds...

Come on, Dems! Kerry??? WTF were you thinking/smoking?!?!

Ah, one last silly point... How come everyone dogs on Bush for doing the consensus thing and allowing Cheney some control when they mushed and gooshed over Clinton for doing the same thing? All I want to see is apples to apples criticisms on these jokrs... I hate the Republicrats AND the Demicans...

First point: no shit, Sherlock. Thanks for the lesson in American Government, but I really don't like being placated like I'm a brainless teenaged punk who worships Green Day.


As a teenage punk I take offense to this. I am neither brainless, nor do I worship Green Day. In fact, you'll find that there are very few real punks who even listen to Greed Day (they're on a major label, you know). The accusation that punks are brainless... Well... We'll let you beleive that. After all, you're the one who lives as a part of an essentially suicidal society which prides itself on consumption and destruction.

Now, I would like to know: am I the only one who is sick and tired of these losers?

Nope.

God, I hate it when people have opinions.

Ah, one last silly point... How come everyone dogs on Bush for doing the consensus thing and allowing Cheney some control when they mushed and gooshed over Clinton for doing the same thing? All I want to see is apples to apples criticisms on these jokrs... I hate the Republicrats AND the Demicans...

It kind of depends who the consensus thing is done with. Clinton's advisors were not notorious neoconservative ideologues and most of them were qualified for their jobs.

I really don't like being placated like I'm a brainless teenaged punk who worships Green Day.

Honestly, give Green Day a break. I don't think even they expected American Idiot (the album) to be such a success, before that they were basically has-been one-hit wonders. As a whole, the album does have some artistic merit, and not just because it has 8-minute songs. Ironically it's the popularity of some of the songs which just kills the album's good points. In my opinion as a brainless teenaged indie/punk rocking communist, of course.

Meanwhile, I too am on the lookout for a t-shirt which says "I hated Bush before it was cool."

I've hated George W. Bush as a politician since he assumed the role of President of the United States in 2001. However, I have felt ashamed to proclaim this belief publicly and privately ever since 2004, when punk-pop band Green Day, High School drop-outs and writers of awe-inspiring songs about chronic masturbation and marajuana binges, decided they wanted to "get like political dude" and released the vastly overrated "American Idiot." That same year, schlocky biased hack Michael Moore made a (shockingly) schlocky biased movie about Bush. Since that time, an influx of uninformed, mindless idiots have been spouting off their hatred for Bush based on vague, miniscule reasonings without any sort of facts or political beliefs to back themselves up. This had the inevitable consequence of giving neo-cons more ammunition than ever, and making anyone with a legitimate hatred of Bush look bad. Now, I would like to know: am I the only one who is sick and tired of these losers? Personally, I would really love it if they would shut the fuck up and continue to be useless without pretending to know shit, thus allowing me to express my disdain for Bush without having to prove that I am not a mindless Green Day junkie.


I'm with you. I'm not fan of W either but I always find it amusing that Hollywood's & music artists' opinions are so highly regarded when at least 80% of them don't even have a formal education much past 8th grade.

This begs the question, when, exactly, did people become so misinformed and unwilling to get informed, that they must have some old hacks (Green Day), whom haven't had a good album out since Dookie, (I say this only because I was very young when it came out, memories) before theyw il take a serious stand against anything?

People say, "Oh, they have a voice," why must people wait for someone with a voice tell them it's okay to think something? Sheep mentality. Then you have the little wanna-be punks that run around blogging about how ebil teh Korperaysion is, whilest feeding their coffers for Internet fees. Ironic, isn't it?
Oh wait, but that's an acceptable sacrifice...

I disliked Bush when he was the Governer of Texas. I didn't need Micheal Moore, nor did I need a band to tell me how bad Bush was.

Save your shirts, they don't make you look cool unless you make them yourself (it's not that hard to do, seriously). Seek knowledge and thou shall be learned.

Because many people have the idea that politics doesn't affect them or is just too boring, and instinctively want to conform. I'm sure sociologists or anthropologists could tell you why. Why worry about the state of the world and current affairs? It's too boring and depressing. The sad truth is, you'd rather follow the school into the net, cause swimming alone at sea is not the kind of freedom that you actually want.

(And I wasn't being literal about the t-shirt there.)

Thanks, man. I love cookies. Except from major douchebag Hitler machines like George Bush!!!! *turns on stero* "PRO-AMERICA ANTI-BUSH OHHH-OHHH-OHHH!!!"

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/5125/cookiecatsj5sf3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Sorry. I just had to spam something. I've posted far to much being serious the last couple of days.

It's these losers that give the rest of the left a bad name.

:rolleyes:

This thread has taken a turn towards being nearly self-mocking. It's like listening to a bunch of indy college students talk about music. Or like Python's "Four Yorkshiremen" skit...

"I hated Bush before 2004."
"Yeah, well I hated him in 2000."
"I hated him during the primaries!"
"Oh yeah? I hated him when he was governer!"
"Joiner! I hated him when he was no more than a twinkle in his father's eye!"
"Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah."

This thread has taken a turn towards being nearly self-mocking. It's like listening to a bunch of indy college students talk about music. Or like Python's "Four Yorkshiremen" skit...

"I hated Bush before 2004."
"Yeah, well I hated him in 2000."
"I hated him during the primaries!"
"Oh yeah? I hated him when he was governer!"
"Joiner! I hated him when he was no more than a twinkle in his father's eye!"
"Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah."

*snickers*

And all these folks who think that they are "indie" simply because they refuse to listen to mainstream music.... Sorry you got me started. But if it's good, it's good, regardless of whether it makes money or not.

*does not claim to be indie, but has been classified as one* *(is generally against classing into cliques)*

And all these folks who think that they are "indie" simply because they refuse to listen to mainstream music.... Sorry you got me started. But if it's good, it's good, regardless of whether it makes money or not.



What about those folks who don't listen to mainstream music 'cuz it's all empty headed nonsense which has the artistic credibility of a pile of dogshit?

What about those folks who don't listen to mainstream music 'cuz it's all empty headed nonsense which has the artistic credibility of a pile of dogshit?

I'll definantly agree that a fair bit of is. However, there are diamonds in the rough.

What about those folks who don't listen to mainstream music 'cuz it's all empty headed nonsense which has the artistic credibility of a pile of dogshit?

because those people are either empty headed, like the music, or started listening to the music before the band even went mainstream

I'll definantly agree that a fair bit of is. However, there are diamonds in the rough.

Maybe I'm just a cynic, but there is very little that comes out in a major record label that is anything but easily-digested, atmosphere music which either worships our silly culture of glorified sex, drugs, and drink, or complains about nonsense romances so abstract as to barely fit the term romance at all. That which is not is rare, and rarely sucessful. Obviously, there are a number of folk artists who blast this mold apart, but, with the growth of easy, produce-at-home technology that helps to defy the middle-man of the record industry, it becomes much easier for even those musicians to form their own label, and distribute their own music. Because, at the very least, not having to depend on a major label to handle your publicity keeps them from fucking you over (like they have many times).

Noteably, however, Geffen has made a strong effort to attract politically and culturally active bands in the last few years. I don't know why, since said bands are almost always doomed to failure (unless they obscure their message and leave it between the lines), but they have. I'm still skeptical. At the very least, the big-market nonsense that has been perpetrated by labels which are members of the RIAA leaves me very bitter with them.

*snip*

ha. you could listen to christian music! :rolleyes:

Maybe I'm just a cynic, but there is very little that comes out in a major record label that is anything but easily-digested, atmosphere music which either worships our silly culture of glorified sex, drugs, and drink, or complains about nonsense romances so abstract as to barely fit the term romance at all. That which is not is rare, and rarely sucessful. Obviously, there are a number of folk artists who blast this mold apart, but, with the growth of easy, produce-at-home technology that helps to defy the middle-man of the record industry, it becomes much easier for even those musicians to form their own label, and distribute their own music. Because, at the very least, not having to depend on a major label to handle your publicity keeps them from fucking you over (like they have many times).

Noteably, however, Geffen has made a strong effort to attract politically and culturally active bands in the last few years. I don't know why, since said bands are almost always doomed to failure (unless they obscure their message and leave it between the lines), but they have. I'm still skeptical. At the very least, the big-market nonsense that has been perpetrated by labels which are members of the RIAA leaves me very bitter with them.
I will admit that most of my amunition was folk artists...

However there are also lot of the new breed acoustic rock that is also really rather good. And while I am not personally a country fan, they do seem to have more depth than many, and some are impressive word smiths. There is also the occasional rapper with great insight (occasional being the opperative word). I'm also not a fan of rap. But the insight does occasionally exist.

you cant get much more generic than rap. hell, even "im a virgin... yeah right" britney spears went from pop to R&B... ish. rubbish. anyway, its too generic. its too much recycled garbage background music with some kind of twist with some garbage recycled lyrics to go along with it.

i really get sick of the radio stations, though. most play the same top whatever every 2 hours and you get the feeling youve listened to one song 4 times each day or so. plus, the DJs dont even pull but one or two songs off of each album, even if there are much better songs on it.

however, green day's album stunk of lame bull shit through and through... and they still play it on the radio!!!

I will admit that most of my amunition was folk artists...

However there are also lot of the new breed acoustic rock that is also really rather good. And while I am not personally a country fan, they do seem to have more depth than many, and some are impressive word smiths. There is also the occasional rapper with great insight (occasional being the opperative word). I'm also not a fan of rap. But the insight does occasionally exist.

I listen to an older breed of folk singers (although some of the newer stuff, Dan Bern in particular, is quite good), so I kinda set that up knowing where it would go. Actually, in terms of depth, even the most mainstream of the "folkies" of the first wave of American political folk in the late 50's, continuing on into the 60's (that would be Donovan) had a couple of overtly political songs, although I don't beleive he wrote either.

I would agree that there are rappers with great artistic depth. Specifically, I'm a big fan of MC Lars, who does some fun, fairly intellectual "Post-Punk Laptop Rap" which I find both amusing and interesting. He is, at least IIRC, on an independant label, though. I'm told that Sage Francis is an interesting artist, although I have to admit that I don't find him particularly exciting, and he, too, is on an "independant" label (although, TBH, Epitaph doesn't really count any more).

i thought we were talking mainstream...?

First point: no shit, Sherlock. Thanks for the lesson in American Government, but I really don't like being placated like I'm a brainless teenaged punk who worships Green Day.

Second point: He actually is (or at least was) being taken to court for misrepresenting the views of a soldier he interviewed. Look it up. Secondly, he distorts the facts in order to make his point. Example: Charleton Heston, former head of the NRA, held events in Littleton, Colorado and again in a Michigan city both not soon after acts of gun violence had occurred in each of those places. After telling the audience this in voice-over, he showed a clip of Heston holding up a rifle and proclaiming, "from my cold dead hands." As it turns out, the footage was taken from an event taken at a completely different time and in a completely different context (the gun was given on behalf of an award or recognition of some sort). That just furthers his agenda of making people who oppose gun control look mean, but does not necessarily do great damage to Heston's reputation. It's not worth suing over, especially when you consider the fact that Moore has no credit with anyone other than slack-jawed, brainwashed liberals.
Actually, the footage of the soldier merrily implies what was in the original context of the report it came from, that the medications are helping with his pain. The lead in line that is alleged to 'frame his opinion' really does nothing more than allude to the fact that injured or maimed soldiers are an addition to the deaths in Iraq as part of what's 'left behind,' like the soldiers arm.

Further, the "Cold dead hands" clip is apparently Micheal Moore over-estimating you. It was included because it is an iconic clip and he apparently wrongly assumed you would recognize it as such and not be implied that it was from that specific rally, since everyone and their brother has made a 'cold dead hands' joke since that clip was filmed ages ago.

There are issues and discussions to be had about the points that Moore makes, and he has never made any bones about the films representing his view-documentaries are arguments, somehow people have gone retarded and forgotten that, it's sort of telling that no one has those discussions and instead brings up needling masturbatory points like these as some sort of 'evidence.'

But this thread has the taint of masturbation about it anyway, so I guess it fits.