NationStates Jolt Archive

I find the existence of a deity to be very very improbable. And I think religion has a tendency to hold people back in terms of scientific progress and the granting of civil rights ie a religious group creates a ruccus over gays/nipple slips etc which results in other people having to accept almost their views on life by apologising and so on, their freedom of expression being limited essentially by the subjective unproven perceptions of their religious counterparts. But, I also think that life is pretty bleak without some sort of belief system that extends beyond yourself. I mean its crap that we're all going to die, that everything we do is going to eventually be forgotten, that everything we do is essentially meaningless beyond the meaning we ascribe to it. We do things because it gives us purpose, but there is no purpose beyond our own frame of reference. So is atheism really that good?

Id be in favour almost of introducing a non theistic belief system which would also allow people within its own set of rules to develop their own theistic variations but with the restriction that such variations would be specific to them so that I guess religion wouldnt be able to interfere with science and so on. Something anyway where people can at least derive contentment without trying to impose it on anyone else. It might in theistic cases be delusive but at least it would be weakly delusive, harmless even.

I went on an atheism only diet and lost 4kg of emotional baggage in a month - the healthy way. You can too!

Id be in favour almost of introducing a non theistic belief system which would also allow people within its own set of rules to develop their own theistic variations but with the restriction that such variations would be specific to them so that I guess religion wouldnt be able to interfere with science and so on. Something anyway where people can at least derive contentment without trying to impose it on anyone else. It might in theistic cases be delusive but at least it would be weakly delusive, harmless even.
Try Buddhism. It encourages you to question, but the answers don't matter. According to my girlfriend's dad, who is a Buddhist, the whole ethos of Buddhism is basically 'live for now and be nice to other people' and 'it doesn't really matter'. That second one is his answer to the following questions:

Is there a god?
How did the universe start?
Is reincarnation true?

Try Buddhism. It encourages you to question, but the answers don't matter. According to my girlfriend's dad, who is a Buddhist, the whole ethos of Buddhism is basically 'live for now and be nice to other people' and 'it doesn't really matter'. That second one is his answer to the following questions:

Is there a god?
How did the universe start?
Is reincarnation true?

The third is especially true, because considering all availiable evidence if reincarnation did occur, we have no memories of our previous lives, thus renderring the answer irrelevant.

what kind of nontheistic belief system are you envisioning? why would it have to be "introduced"? by whom? wouldnt it just be a new set of lies?

What would be the point in constructiong your own God, if you realise you made it yourself you could never truly believe in it.

Well I suppose a belief system which makes you stressed, afraid or depressed is not healthy for you, but the things that cause those feelings tend to vary from person to person.

As an example: I'm an atheist. I believe that when a person dies he simply ceases to exist. For some reason this thought seems to scare the willies out of Christians, who like to believe in an afterlife. In fact, some sects of Christianity don't believe in Hell at all, but oblivion, which is pretty much what I believe death to be for everyone, good or evil. For those Christians, oblivion is the ultimate punishment for being a bad person.

That's how many of the Christians I've talked to about these matters feel. On the other hand, I think that the idea of eternal existence, be it in Hell or Heaven, is a very scary one. I don't want to exist forever, and the thought that one day I'll just blink out of existence is very comforting to me. This makes atheism, for me, a very easy way to view the world, but I understand it could be a very difficult one for someone who is genuinely afraid of my idea of what death is.

What would be the point in constructiong your own God, if you realise you made it yourself you could never truly believe in it.

Children construct and believe in their own companions do they not?

Children construct and believe in their own companions do they not?

They are children.

They are children.

I looked it up and imaginary friends can be created by adults too.

The third is especially true, because considering all availiable evidence if reincarnation did occur, we have no memories of our previous lives, thus renderring the answer irrelevant.
But the whole point of reincarnation is that it is part of the journey to enlightenment. If there is no reincarnation there is no enlightenment, and so it would matter.

The point he was trying to make was that people should not need bribes (enlightenment, heaven, hell, etc) in order to live a good life. I myself believe that when I die that's the end, yet I still try to live a good life.

I looked it up and imaginary friends can be created by adults too.

Very few.

Anyway what is this idea of introducing a restricted non theistic belief system? Are you proposing this should replace religion?

You could only do that by force, so you would have to restrict peoples freedoms. Sounds like some sort of fascist thought police policy to me.

Is Atheism healthy?
In a fundamentalist state, it's quite unhealthy. It could even prove to be lethal in some cases.

What would be the point in constructiong your own God, if you realise you made it yourself you could never truly believe in it.

It would be fun.

What would be the point in constructiong your own God, if you realise you made it yourself you could never truly believe in it.

I've always wondered this, that somewhere down the line someone had to know it was bullshit but said it anyway. "Yeah, um, god totally likes it if you, um, trace a cross on yourself..." Like, at a beginning point in a religion there was someone bullshitting who knew and kept going. "(Crap, they're totally buying it...) Yeah, um...and he, uh, totally wants you to eat fish on Fridays..."

Atheism is the healthiest thing there is. You may consume alot of time figuring out godly and holy things and pray in your place of worship. But then you are continiously considering the afterlife. The afterlife? Are we even sure it exists? No. No one can tell wether it exists or not. That is why it is better to throw away that rubbish and start thinking of what is important to you in THIS life. Because it is most likely there isn't an afterlife and wouldn't you be dissapointed if you spent all your life trying to get to heaven, and there is NO heaven. Because all those nice things you were taught of afterlife, they're not there.. The unfailing human capacity to believe what we wish to be true astounds me. We long for a caring universe where our mistakes can be forgiven and "Jesus saves!" God has not been proven not to exist, therefore, God exists. (Or not, but that is a matter of difference between theism and athiems. Or as some "believers" would like to tell us, a matter of "faith" (in things that dont exist))

I've always wondered this, that somewhere down the line someone had to know it was bullshit but said it anyway. "Yeah, um, god totally likes it if you, um, trace a cross on yourself..." Like, at a beginning point in a religion there was someone bullshitting who knew and kept going. "(Crap, they're totally buying it...) Yeah, um...and he, uh, totally wants you to eat fish on Fridays..."

"How fortunate for you all that I just caught a huge load of fish!"

"How fortunate for you all that I just caught a huge load of fish!"

Quality.

And probably close to the truth of the situation 9 out of 10 times. (or more)

That is why it is better to throw away that rubbish and start thinking of what is important to you in THIS life. Because it is most likely there isn't an afterlife and wouldn't you be dissapointed if you spent all your life trying to get to heaven, and there is NO heaven. Because all those nice things you were taught of afterlife, they're not there.. The unfailing human capacity to believe what we wish to be true astounds me.

They'd be dead, they wouldn't realise or have the ability to care.

The afterlife? Are we even sure it exists? No. No one can tell wether it exists or not.

Of course it doesn't exist. Our brains will stop functioning and we lose consciousness. No other possibilities.

look at it this way, you either believe something or you don't, if your current "belief system" doesn't work for you, it's because you don't believe it. Instead of wandering around trying to figure out what's best for other people to believe why don't you sit down and figure out what you believe. Making up a "belief system" so that "people don't feel bad" is a waste of time, people will always feel bad because they choose to.

well I wasnt suggesting it forced on people, just kinda like in an ideal world, or in some future perhaps when religion would be completely eroded and a substitute might be needed. I find it hard to comprehend how people cannot be afraid of death, if only because fear of death is an evolutionary trait. I cant really be specific about this belief system Im just proposing the idea as opposed the mechanics. A belief system anyway offers a nice comfort blanket to an almost incomprehensibly bad reality.

I think nearly everyone constructs their own god if you will, their own vision of what their religion entails. So it might not be that different, I guess the rules of the belief system would allow you to induce rather than create a god if that was your wish, but this is getting into specifics which I dont want to do as I havent thought them out nor do I really feel the desire to do so. In essence the person would realize that their (theistic) beliefs would be relevant to them and not to others and that they would have no right trying to indoctrinate others with their beliefs. You can look foward to the pleasures existence offers you, eating a nice lunch, having a good time, finding out interesting facts etc, but its not enough for some who want to go beyond enjoyment to something absolutely mindbending (as in seeing through time etc) or at least to exist forever.

Wow...

look at it this way, you either believe something or you don't, if your current "belief system" doesn't work for you, it's because you don't believe it.

What makes you think just because a belief system doesn't make you feel good (which I find a wrong assumption often made of atheism, but that is another story...) you don't believe it?

Making up a "belief system" so that "people don't feel bad" is a waste of time, people will always feel bad because they choose to.

First of all, religion is still so strong because people need something to believe to make themselves feel better. Second: " people will always feel bad because they choose to"? People choose to feel bad?

Man 1: I feel like ice cream.
Man 2: I feel like getting depression and committing suicide.

How old are you?

I find the existence of a deity to be very very improbable. And I think religion has a tendency to hold people back in terms of scientific progress and the granting of civil rights ie a religious group creates a ruccus over gays/nipple slips etc which results in other people having to accept almost their views on life by apologising and so on, their freedom of expression being limited essentially by the subjective unproven perceptions of their religious counterparts. But, I also think that life is pretty bleak without some sort of belief system that extends beyond yourself. I mean its crap that we're all going to die, that everything we do is going to eventually be forgotten, that everything we do is essentially meaningless beyond the meaning we ascribe to it. We do things because it gives us purpose, but there is no purpose beyond our own frame of reference. So is atheism really that good?

Id be in favour almost of introducing a non theistic belief system which would also allow people within its own set of rules to develop their own theistic variations but with the restriction that such variations would be specific to them so that I guess religion wouldnt be able to interfere with science and so on. Something anyway where people can at least derive contentment without trying to impose it on anyone else. It might in theistic cases be delusive but at least it would be weakly delusive, harmless even.

To quote Battlestar Galactica, "it has all happened before, it will all happen again."
You find yourself with the same dilemma as the finders of Judaism. They lived in a world surrounded by too many cults and irrational mysticisms. So (through a now unknown process) they established a "religion" in which there is only one god and you can't see him, can't hear him, he is present everywhere and he doesn't tolerate any other gods. But the standards of their time this religion might as well had been atheist. To top it all off they said that the only thing this god demands of people is not human sacrifice or daily worship but a civial society with established rules for justice. Is that something along the lines that you were thinking of? Of course, as with all ideas, Judaism got corrupted by the beuracrats that maintained it (the clergy) and now its proper practice is mostly known for odd dietary laws, mystic books for Modana to study and (get this) daily 3 times of worshipping.
The problem with any good idea is the next generation of people. Culture has a little of historical momentum (we still occassionally listen to Elvis and Sinatra), but religion has most historical momentum. Of course, if you are aware of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, then you know that any well-organized system (even best organized system) eventually falls apart. And that is the true meaning of the phrase "liberty means eternam vigilance".

I find the existence of a deity to be very very improbable. And I think religion has a tendency to hold people back in terms of scientific progress and the granting of civil rights ie a religious group creates a ruccus over gays/nipple slips etc which results in other people having to accept almost their views on life by apologising and so on, their freedom of expression being limited essentially by the subjective unproven perceptions of their religious counterparts. But, I also think that life is pretty bleak without some sort of belief system that extends beyond yourself. I mean its crap that we're all going to die, that everything we do is going to eventually be forgotten, that everything we do is essentially meaningless beyond the meaning we ascribe to it. We do things because it gives us purpose, but there is no purpose beyond our own frame of reference. So is atheism really that good?

Id be in favour almost of introducing a non theistic belief system which would also allow people within its own set of rules to develop their own theistic variations but with the restriction that such variations would be specific to them so that I guess religion wouldnt be able to interfere with science and so on. Something anyway where people can at least derive contentment without trying to impose it on anyone else. It might in theistic cases be delusive but at least it would be weakly delusive, harmless even.
What you seem to be seeking isn't a religion at all, but rather spiritual fulfilment. You want spiritual gratification; something that feels good spiritually, since spirituality does not actually interfere with science.

This is just my guess though.

If it is, you need to find a way to get in touch with this forgotten side.

I have given up religion, as I think it's total bullshit, and I don't believe in any god. But, I have felt the very edge of my humanity; I have felt the absoluteness of nothingness after surrendering my conscious mind and body.

You need to find a way that will let you feel and get in touch with your spiritual side, which you don't need any one religion for.

I find the existence of a deity to be very very improbable. And I think religion has a tendency to hold people back in terms of scientific progress and the granting of civil rights ie a religious group creates a ruccus over gays/nipple slips etc which results in other people having to accept almost their views on life by apologising and so on, their freedom of expression being limited essentially by the subjective unproven perceptions of their religious counterparts. But, I also think that life is pretty bleak without some sort of belief system that extends beyond yourself. I mean its crap that we're all going to die, that everything we do is going to eventually be forgotten, that everything we do is essentially meaningless beyond the meaning we ascribe to it. We do things because it gives us purpose, but there is no purpose beyond our own frame of reference. So is atheism really that good?

Id be in favour almost of introducing a non theistic belief system which would also allow people within its own set of rules to develop their own theistic variations but with the restriction that such variations would be specific to them so that I guess religion wouldnt be able to interfere with science and so on. Something anyway where people can at least derive contentment without trying to impose it on anyone else. It might in theistic cases be delusive but at least it would be weakly delusive, harmless even.
What you seem to be seeking isn't a religion at all, but rather spiritual fulfilment. You want spiritual gratification; something that feels good spiritually, since spirituality does not actually interfere with science.

This is just my guess though.

If it is, you need to find a way to get in touch with this forgotten side.

I have given up religion, as I think it's total bullshit, and I don't believe in any god. But, I have felt the very edge of my humanity; I have felt the absoluteness of nothingness after surrendering my conscious mind and body.

You need to find a way that will let you feel and get in touch with your spiritual side, which you don't need any one religion for.

But, I also think that life is pretty bleak without some sort of belief system that extends beyond yourself.

What makes you think that atheistic belief systems can't do this?

I mean its crap that we're all going to die, that everything we do is going to eventually be forgotten, that everything we do is essentially meaningless beyond the meaning we ascribe to it. We do things because it gives us purpose, but there is no purpose beyond our own frame of reference.

What if certain values matter because they affect your well-being? That way meaning has to do with your frame of reference, and yet is more than just arbitrary whim.

What makes you think that atheistic belief systems can't do this?



What if certain values matter because they affect your well-being? That way meaning has to do with your frame of reference, and yet is more than just arbitrary whim.

that veers into another debate which could most likely go on forever, but to respond anyway, anything that affects your wellbeing is subjective, its not objectively defined, fear of pain, wanting to live etc are illogical. These feelings were not arrived at by rational thought, but through circumstance and natural selection. Anything which follows on from these feelings can be logically described but the premises of such feelings cannot be described in logical terms as they were not created through logic but through natural selection/contingency. In other words theyre not logical as with say a mathematical proof.

With regards to all systems tending to disorder, I agree, but its still worth trying to manipulate things in a better direction, a direction which will result in an environment with the least amount of unjustifiable prejudice/violence. Agh yeah its from my own viewpoint but meh, I would define unjustifiable prejudice as being malice directed towards someone embodies a set of values different from your own but who doesnt actually harm anyone else. Implementing a spiritual structure, which is a better way of describing it, might be beneficial in the possible eventual absence of any beliefs. It would fall apart eventually but maybe certain conditions could be built in which would let it result in a society which would get along well without it

Well, I'm pretty sure it's better than believing in sky faeries.

In a fundamentalist state, it's quite unhealthy. It could even prove to be lethal in some cases.

Quite true.

Quite true.

I agree. For example, I've always laughed at Jack Chick. He's the pioneer of the "Blackleaf! NOOOO!!!" Anti-D&D comics. Basically, he believes that EVERYONE deserves to go to hell, and only true believers will even be given heaven. But they'll still DESERVE hell. Happy little guy, I'm sure.

of course atheism is healthy. it's packed full of vitamins and minerals, and, unlike religion, has no hallucinogenic side effects.

of course atheism is healthy. it's packed full of vitamins and minerals, and, unlike religion, has no hallucinogenic side effects.

Man, that's cold.

I believe in a God because it seems a hell of a lot more probable than everything happening randomly.

Secondly, it provides more intellectual stimulation than atheism; I can discuss metaphysical topics more deeply and develop my personal theology through thought and not be trapped in a strictly rationalist philosophical position. Lastly, because I know there is someone else that is keeping tabs on my behavior and decisions, it provides more motivation to do the right thing than is already inherent in my self-motivation to do right.

By believing in God and a form of afterlife, I have strong motivation to do good not just for myself and my immediate family, but the world and those who will come after me.

Man, that's cold.

i am dead inside ;)

of course atheism is healthy. it's packed full of vitamins and minerals, and, unlike religion, has no hallucinogenic side effects.

You say no hallucinogenic side affects as though it were a good thing.

You say no hallucinogenic side affects as though it were a good thing.

:D

I believe in a God because it seems a hell of a lot more probable than everything happening randomly.

Secondly, it provides more intellectual stimulation than atheism; I can discuss metaphysical topics more deeply and develop my personal theology through thought and not be trapped in a strictly rationalist philosophical position. Lastly, because I know there is someone else that is keeping tabs on my behavior and decisions, it provides more motivation to do the right thing than is already inherent in my self-motivation to do right.

By believing in God and a form of afterlife, I have strong motivation to do good not just for myself and my immediate family, but the world and those who will come after me.

When you say there's a god, it's easier to answer metafysical questions: you only have to answer: 'It's because God wanted it that way.' and then you're done.

Although it is harder to answer fysical quenstions like:
'Did you're god create the universe out of nothing? Well, the amount of mass and energy is always, has always been, and will alway be the same. How do you explain this?'

Why can't you just do good for the people who come after you when you don't believe in a god?
If you do so, then it shows that you really care about them.
If you do good because you belive in a god, then it seams (to me) that you're just doing it so that god likes you.

You say no hallucinogenic side affects as though it were a good thing.

well, when you're getting hallucinations off chemicals then at least you can put it down to them. if you're getting hallucinations from the random misfirings of your neural pathways caused by the mind warpings resultant of a self-contradictory belief system things can get a bit messy and lots of people die.

When you say there's a god, it's easier to answer metafysical questions: you only have to answer: 'It's because God wanted it that way.' and then you're done.

Only if you don't really know the answer; most metaphysical discussions are very in depth because nobody can agree on the nature of God or how it works in this universe.

Although it is harder to answer fysical quenstions like:
'Did you're god create the universe out of nothing? Well, the amount of mass and energy is always, has always been, and will alway be the same. How do you explain this?'

There's no evidence for that prior to the Big Bang...any speculation about the universe prior to it is as metaphysical as any creation story. All we know is that those rules apply in our universe and have only applied since the Big Bang, and that they are contingent on the rest of the laws of the universe all of which were formed in the Big Bang. Before that, we have no idea and can't know, especially considering time didn't exist and we can't observe it.

And, of course, if matter has always existed, so too could God. If physical matter requires no creator, than neither does God; the only thing that might say is that God didn't create the universe, and I don't think it matters whether or not he did, personally.

Why can't you just do good for the people who come after you when you don't believe in a god?

Oh, I could, but I wouldn't have the ability to see what effects my actions will have. I'm interested in seeing the ramifications of my actions now in the future; you tend to weigh decisions more carefully when you consider that you might see their effects as well.

At the same time, however, it reduces motivation

If you do so, then it shows that you really care about them.
If you do good because you belive in a god, then it seams (to me) that you're just doing it so that god likes you.

I do it because I love God, not because I want God to reward me. I would prefer to survive after death in a nice place so that I could continue my experiences without suffering, but it's not like I'm doing good because I'm banking on going to heaven. I see my relationship with God like a family; you do good things for them because you love them, not because you want them to like you. I

f we only did things so that others like us, we would have no deep emotional bonds and our lives would be stifled. I do good out of love and respect for myself, other people, and God.

well, when you're getting hallucinations off chemicals then at least you can put it down to them. if you're getting hallucinations from the random misfirings of your neural pathways caused by the mind warpings resultant of a self-contradictory belief system things can get a bit messy and lots of people die.

Yeah, I prefer to have real spiritual experiences myself. I'd rather avoid having the messed-up beliefs of the radicals or have a brain incapable of having those experiences like a strong atheist.

I like experiencing real spirituality.

Only if you don't really know the answer; most metaphysical discussions are very in depth because nobody can agree on the nature of God or how it works in this universe.



There's no evidence for that prior to the Big Bang...any speculation about the universe prior to it is as metaphysical as any creation story. All we know is that those rules apply in our universe and have only applied since the Big Bang, and that they are contingent on the rest of the laws of the universe all of which were formed in the Big Bang. Before that, we have no idea and can't know, especially considering time didn't exist and we can't observe it.

And, of course, if matter has always existed, so too could God. If physical matter requires no creator, than neither does God; the only thing that might say is that God didn't create the universe, and I don't think it matters whether or not he did, personally.



Oh, I could, but I wouldn't have the ability to see what effects my actions will have. I'm interested in seeing the ramifications of my actions now in the future; you tend to weigh decisions more carefully when you consider that you might see their effects as well.

At the same time, however, it reduces motivation



I do it because I love God, not because I want God to reward me. I would prefer to survive after death in a nice place so that I could continue my experiences without suffering, but it's not like I'm doing good because I'm banking on going to heaven. I see my relationship with God like a family; you do good things for them because you love them, not because you want them to like you. I

f we only did things so that others like us, we would have no deep emotional bonds and our lives would be stifled. I do good out of love and respect for myself, other people, and God.

OK, you might discuss, but if you're in a discussion will you also say 'I don't know.' or will you say 'It's because of god.'?

Yes god could exist, but what's his use then, he didn't create the universe, probably neither the place of the afterlife, ...

You want to be able to see what you have done good for the others (so from the afterlife you should be able to see the earth).
But maybe the rest won't like at all what you've done, you can't always do good things, and then you are there in you're afterlife, and you can't change it, nor say sorry, or anything, so you'd feel miserable I think.

But hey, if you want to believe that, and it makes your life easier and also easier to do good, although I don't need a god to do good, then go ahead.

I'm convinced Agnosticism is the way to go, instead of a weak religeon I'd rather have a society of people who go "Meh, who knows." Just don't kill each other over it and I have no real problems though.

I can prove the existence of God.

I can prove the existence of God.

I can prove the existence of a china teapot orbiting the sun between Earth and Mars in an elliptical orbit.

I can prove the existence of a china teapot orbiting the sun between Earth and Mars in an elliptical orbit.

I don't believe in the china teapot.

Therefore I am an anti-china-teapotist, and I have faith, and anti-china-teapotism is a religion!

I can prove the existence of a china teapot orbiting the sun between Earth and Mars in an elliptical orbit.

Listen to what I say before you try to be skeptical.

I don't believe in the china teapot.

Therefore I am an anti-china-teapotist, and I have faith, and anti-china-teapotism is a religion!

Yeah, and bald is a hair colour :rolleyes:

Have you thought about buddhism?

That's an extended belief system, but you can still be an atheist, theist, whatever.

I'd say Atheism is about as healthy as religion, when both are practiced by sensible people.

Listen to what I say before you try to be skeptical.

Go ahead, I'm waiting.

Yeah, and bald is a hair colour :rolleyes:

clear?

clear?

Colourless. Not the same thing, as I learned in chemistry.

I do think religions can be healthy, and atheism may not be. But it doesnt need to be so.

What humans need is something to believe in. Humans need something greater than themselves, something they can work with, something they may feel connected with.

Mainly, that means religion. But not only that. There are many other ways someone can bond with a "greather" meaning.

One of them is sports. Funny, isnt it? Sports derived from wars and games. Instead of wars, nowadays we have games to fulfill our anger, violent, physical, competitive and entertainment desires. And that is why so many people become fanaticts with their soccer, basket, baseball, football teams, so much that they feel their destiny is bonded with their team.

I have no doubt that most of this desire to bond with something greater, in our today society, is fulfiled by sports. I mean, look at the average Joe. He works from 8/9 to 5/6, go home to his family, watch TV, drink some beers and cheer at some team. Why? Because our lives have no meaning anymore. No love, no adventure. We just live like sheep, and the only way to achieve glory or a greater objective is throuhg living someone else´s live. And you can do that by cheering to a team, living the excitiment through the team players, and when THEY win, you win too, and you feel great, because, in your own silly head, you also won the glory, the money, the rewards of their win.

But it doesnt need to only sports. Many people dedicate their lives to a discovery, to money, to have sex with as much people possible, to become famous. I do think that is how many of us start. We all have/had dreams when we were young and teens. No one, in their youth years, want to be a bank accountant when they grow up. Everyone wants to be a sport player, an actor, singer, scientist, astronaut etc. Yet, when most of us realize it isnt hard to acomplish that, we try to find easier ways. And most turn to sports, religion or something else.

Of course, you can also believe in an ideology. At least in the past, there were many ideologies that had nothing to do with religion. Unfortunaly, most of us remember the fascism and nazism, some ideologies so strong that the people that believed in them put them over their own lives. So much that many people commited suicide when their governments ended because they couldnt bear to live a life without nazism/communism/fascism.

You see, I do think humans need something greater than themselves to be healthy. It can be a religion. It can be an ideology. It can be sports. It can be a dream. Anything that gives us a proper reason to live. Something that makes us proud, since in this age where 6 billion people live like sheeps, where the only adventure left in our society is to opose society itself, not many things remain to give us purpose. Believers have it easier: they think just living by their god is enough. Atheists have it harder, because they will have to find something worth to be believed in.


But it doesnt need to be so.

Wait wait wait.
We are confusing two different forms of belief altogether here!

Athiesm is simply the objection of any immortal diety. It is also the objection of any morals not layed down by law.

Unitarianism is self-oriented belief. When an individual develops a code of behaviour, and a supernatural, or non-supernatural existance of their own design. It is apparent to me that you people are Unitarianists, not Athiests.

Wow...What makes you think just because a belief system doesn't make you feel good (which I find a wrong assumption often made of atheism, but that is another story...) you don't believe it?
If you constantly feel like your world view is depressing and you need something more than I would think that your world view is flawed for you.

First of all, religion is still so strong because people need something to believe to make themselves feel better. Second: " people will always feel bad because they choose to"? People choose to feel bad?

Man 1: I feel like ice cream.
Man 2: I feel like getting depression and committing suicide.

people feel bad because they want to feel bad, if they did not they would do something about it.

How old are you?
why does that matter?

I find the existence of a deity to be very very improbable. And I think religion has a tendency to hold people back in terms of scientific progress and the granting of civil rights ie a religious group creates a ruccus over gays/nipple slips etc which results in other people having to accept almost their views on life by apologising and so on, their freedom of expression being limited essentially by the subjective unproven perceptions of their religious counterparts. But, I also think that life is pretty bleak without some sort of belief system that extends beyond yourself. I mean its crap that we're all going to die, that everything we do is going to eventually be forgotten, that everything we do is essentially meaningless beyond the meaning we ascribe to it. We do things because it gives us purpose, but there is no purpose beyond our own frame of reference. So is atheism really that good?

Id be in favour almost of introducing a non theistic belief system which would also allow people within its own set of rules to develop their own theistic variations but with the restriction that such variations would be specific to them so that I guess religion wouldnt be able to interfere with science and so on. Something anyway where people can at least derive contentment without trying to impose it on anyone else. It might in theistic cases be delusive but at least it would be weakly delusive, harmless even.

Of course atheism is healthy. It has no narcotic or hallucinogenic effects.

Of course atheism is healthy. It has no narcotic or hallucinogenic effects.

neither does arsenic.

neither does arsenic.

Yes, but arsenic is lethal anyway.

Yes, but arsenic is lethal anyway.

so it's not healthy then?

neither does arsenic.

Arsenic isn't a religion.

Arsenic isn't a religion.

and atheism is?

and atheism is?

Far more than arsenic.

Far more than arsenic.

Atheism and religion are both lethal in high doses. So is arsenic.

Far more than arsenic.

my point is that if you are going to say that something is healthy just because it doesn't cause hallucinations, you are probably not looking at the situation in an unbiased fashion

and what do you mean "more than arsenic"

it's either a religion or it's not.

my point is that if you are going to say that something is healthy just because it doesn't cause hallucinations, you are probably not looking at the situation in an unbiased fashion

and what do you mean "more than arsenic"

it's either a religion or it's not.

It's not a religion, but is still a faith position.

And arsenic is definately NOT healthy :p

It's not a religion, but is still a faith position.


It's no more of a faith position than not believing in an invisible hippopotamus living in your navel is a faith position.

It's no more of a faith position than not believing in an invisible hippopotamus living in your navel is a faith position.

It is a stance on religion, therefore still a faith position.

Last I checked there wasn't a religion involving invisible hippopotamuses(?) living in my navel, though I could be wrong.

It is a stance on religion, therefore still a faith position.

Last I checked there wasn't a religion involving invisible hippopotamuses(?) living in my navel, though I could be wrong.

It's not a stance on religion. It's a stance on the supernatural. And atheists (most of them at least, because getting atheists together on an issue is like herding cats) will tell you that they cannot rule out with metaphysical certitude that there is no prime cause, creator, divine spark or whatever. It's more that on the balance of evidence, i.e. none, there is no good reason whatsoever to assume or act that there is one.

So it isn't a matter of faith.

It's not a stance on religion. It's a stance on the supernatural. And atheists (most of them at least, because getting atheists together on an issue is like herding cats) will tell you that they cannot rule out with metaphysical certitude that there is no prime cause, creator, divine spark or whatever. It's more that on the balance of evidence, i.e. none, there is no good reason whatsoever to assume or act that there is one.

So it isn't a matter of faith.

Look I'm not gonna spam this thread with page after page of what Atheism is or isn't. We'll leave it with a Wiki definition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Whenever I think about religion and the afterlife, I think of that snotty little kid looking under his parent's bed the night before Christmas. Let it be a surprise!

Atheism and religion are both lethal in high doses. So is arsenic.

And HIV encapsulated in colloid hydrocarbon shells floating in bleach.

It isn't like atheism is non-inspiring, think of the State atheism endorsed in Maoism and Lenin/Marxism. It's an inspiring belief in people and society, those are the two things we are sure exists in this world and there is no doubt, so it is these two things we should try to better.

Religion is the domain of the reactionary.

my mum's immune to arsenic. and yet she's religious. i don't know what this means to the whole arsenic/religion argument. just thought i'd chip in seeing as i seem to have started something with the whole hallucinogen comment. :p

I find the existence of a deity to be very very improbable. And I think religion has a tendency to hold people back in terms of scientific progress and the granting of civil rights ie a religious group creates a ruccus over gays/nipple slips etc which results in other people having to accept almost their views on life by apologising and so on, their freedom of expression being limited essentially by the subjective unproven perceptions of their religious counterparts. But, I also think that life is pretty bleak without some sort of belief system that extends beyond yourself. I mean its crap that we're all going to die, that everything we do is going to eventually be forgotten, that everything we do is essentially meaningless beyond the meaning we ascribe to it. We do things because it gives us purpose, but there is no purpose beyond our own frame of reference. So is atheism really that good?

Id be in favour almost of introducing a non theistic belief system which would also allow people within its own set of rules to develop their own theistic variations but with the restriction that such variations would be specific to them so that I guess religion wouldnt be able to interfere with science and so on. Something anyway where people can at least derive contentment without trying to impose it on anyone else. It might in theistic cases be delusive but at least it would be weakly delusive, harmless even.

Your question is highly illogical. The key statement that caught me was "that everything we do is essentially meaningless beyond the meaning we ascribe to it.".

But considering that our perception of existence really doesn't extend in any serious way beyond the subjective, then isn't the meaning we ascribe enough? It is 'meaning', after all; must it come from a higher power to be worthwhile?

Hey, Lenin was a devout Catholic,

also, one of the biggist arguments to get people to go Communist is to say:
"What was the first thing Jesus did in his ministry? He gave away all of his posesions. He traveled, and took only what people would give him for his work. That was the start of communism."

Hey, Lenin was a devout Catholic,

also, one of the biggist arguments to get people to go Communist is to say:
"What was the first thing Jesus did in his ministry? He gave away all of his posesions. He traveled, and took only what people would give him for his work. That was the start of communism."

No, just because he gave his wealth away to the needy, doesn't mean he wants governments to force you to do that.