NationStates Jolt Archive

Israeli forces killed 660 palestinians this year including 141 children.
This figure is nearly three times what they achieved last year
Israelis killed this year numbered 23 down from 50 last year.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6215769.stm

Palestinians have higher birthrate

True, Palestinians have a higher birthrate, but I know it is not 30 to 1, more like 5 to 1 or so... the math still supports Israel, for now. Um, not being political on this, just demographics.

True, Palestinians have a higher birthrate, but I know it is not 30 to 1, more like 5 to 1 or so... the math still supports Israel, for now. Um, not being political on this, just demographics.

Don't forget immigration into Israel.

Interestingly enough, the number of Jewish Israelis is decreasing and Israeli-Arabs is increasing. The Ani-Israel factions hate them primarily because they are Jewish.

I'm not even going to start...

Israeli forces killed 660 palestinians this year including 141 children.
This figure is nearly three times what they achieved last year
Israelis killed this year numbered 23 down from 50 last year.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6215769.stm

So kids, learn what Dunlaoire has taught you! Don't throw rocks at Israeli military! And even more, don't let Hamas jihaddis get in the crowd and shoot at the Israelis!



The high rate of children dead does not suprise me. Middle eastern culture doesn't hold children in the highest regard. They have Children run in front of trucks to slow them down for an ambush. Sometimes it works with new drivers, sometimes it does. Eitherway it severely scars the driver for running over a kid.

I don't get it. How is this helping Israel win?

I don't get it. How is this helping Israel win?

It's not, the backfiring does. And the backfiring unfortunately kills people.

So kids, learn what Dunlaoire has taught you! Don't throw rocks at Israeli military! And even more, don't let Hamas jihaddis get in the crowd and shoot at the Israelis!



The high rate of children dead does not suprise me. Middle eastern culture doesn't hold children in the highest regard. They have Children run in front of trucks to slow them down for an ambush. Sometimes it works with new drivers, sometimes it does. Eitherway it severely scars the driver for running over a kid.

Was it this year or the year before they sent a kid who wasn't all there to blow up an Israeli checkpoint? Poor kid didn't really have a clue what was happening still as I recall they managed to defuse the bomb without shooting him, always wondered what happened to him after that.

Was it this year or the year before they sent a kid who wasn't all there to blow up an Israeli checkpoint? Poor kid didn't really have a clue what was happening still as I recall they managed to defuse the bomb without shooting him, always wondered what happened to him after that.

Last year if I'm thinking of the same case as you are;)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16380391/

In peace talks that broke down in 2000, Israel offered return of all of the captured Golan Heights, a strategic plateau Israel took from Syria in the 1967 Mideast war, but the negotiations foundered on Syrian demands for a foothold on the shore of the Sea of Galilee — a major source of Israeli drinking water — and conditions for peace it would give Israel.


The real reason for the Israel conflict. Israel offered to give back the Golan, but Syria demanded a quarter of Israel proper itself.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16380391/

In peace talks that broke down in 2000, Israel offered return of all of the captured Golan Heights, a strategic plateau Israel took from Syria in the 1967 Mideast war, but the negotiations foundered on Syrian demands for a foothold on the shore of the Sea of Galilee — a major source of Israeli drinking water — and conditions for peace it would give Israel.


The real reason for the Israel conflict. Israel offered to give back the Golan, but Syria demanded a quarter of Israel proper itself.


During United States-brokered negotiations in 1999-2000, Israel offered to withdraw to the Green line in exchange for peace and full recognition. Syria offered full recognition and peace in exchange for a complete return to the pre-1967 borders, and as that meant Syrian control of Israel's only sweet water sea, Israel refused

The pre 1967 borders is hardly giving up a quarter of Israel proper itself.

Especially as far back as 1967 the Israeli government "decided that the Green Line had ceased to exist." according to MK Zevulun Orlev
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/802646.html

Having said that of course it is a major problem due to the water issue
almost more than anything else. But lets not hedge about and pretend
that the issues are other than they are.

Was it this year or the year before they sent a kid who wasn't all there to blow up an Israeli checkpoint? Poor kid didn't really have a clue what was happening still as I recall they managed to defuse the bomb without shooting him, always wondered what happened to him after that.

Hamas certainly used to have a children's brigade as part of their organisatioon.

Hamas certainly used to have a children's brigade as part of their organisatioon.

Please do feel free to use this thread as a way of explaining to the world
that with 20 times the number of Palestinians killed compared to Israelis
it is truly Israel who is the victim.

I for one am sick of hearing that there is some kind of equality between
Israeli state actions and Palestinian organisations actions.

People even complain about
9,075 Palestinians being held in Israeli jails including 345 minors

Of these, 738 (22 minors) were being detained without trial and without knowing the charges against them, the group said.

So some aren't being charged or tried at least they are not dead yet
and it's possible that they probably aren't being tortured.

Please do feel free to use this thread as a way of explaining to the world
that with 20 times the number of Palestinians killed compared to Israelis
it is truly Israel who is the victim.

Certainly:

1.) When Israeli troops kill Palestinian civilians it is accidental.
When Palestinians kill Israeli civilians it is deliberate.

2.) When Israel hit civilians by accident they tend to apologise.
When Palestinians kill civilians they celebrate.

3.) A while ago, Palestinian civilians acted as human shields to protect a house that was scheduled for demolition by Israeli jets; the jets had to return to base.
If Israeli civilians congregated in a big group do you think this would deter suicide bombers or would the terrorists see this as an opportunity?

4.) You can't judge justification based on body count.

5.) The Palestinians have been offered many opportunities to negotiate and have refused. The Hamas government still refuses to renounce terrorism.

6.) The Palestinians and their arab allies started the war. Most Israelis just want to live in peace, many Palestinians want to wipe Israel off the map.

7.) Less Palestinian civilians would die if terrorists didn't use them as human shields, something which is forbidden in international law. Tell the Palestinians to stop building their bomb factories next door to kindergartens.

8.) Even before the security fence only 1 in 10 Palestinian suicide bombers suceeded in carrying out their attacks, if they had their way then the Israeli death toll would be ten times larger.

9.) The number of deaths doesn't give an accurate portrayal of the conflict because of Israel's superb health system. Israeli hospitals have been driven by necessity to develop new and better ways of treating victims of terrorist attacks and their ambulances can get to the scene of an attack very quickly. Many injured Palestinians die because their leadership refuses to let them be treated in Israeli hospitals so they're treated in inferior facilities which are often short of equipment and blood supplies.

10.) The Palestinians are notoriously bad at reporting their casualities. During the Intifada they included on their list of civilian casualties:
-suicide bombers
-Palestinians who were murdered by other Palestinians for political reasons.
-Kindergarten children who were killed when a terrorist bomb factory (which had been set up next door) blew itself up.
I don't know how these figures were collected so this last point may not be relevant.

I think that's enough for now.

Israel started the war, or rather Jews by coming en masse to Palestine and the ultimately by proclaiming the Jewish state.
And there is no indication that when Israeli troops kill Palestinian civilians it is accidental. Apologies are mere words. They also apologized for almost attacking French ships, when it was indeed pretty obvious that these attacks were intentional. And have they ever apologized for their invasion of Lebanon?

Certainly:

1.) When Israeli troops kill Palestinian civilians it is accidental..

According to the IDF

2.) When Israel hit civilians by accident they tend to apologise...

More often than not they don't. Usually its only when it gains international attention.

.

5.) The Palestinians have been offered many opportunities to negotiate and have refused. The Hamas government still refuses to renounce terrorism....

Yet it was the Israeli side who left talks in 2002. And as Israel has not removed its settlements or soldiers from the occupied territories, why should Hamas renounce the right to armed struggle?


6.) The Palestinians and their arab allies started the war. Most Israelis just want to live in peace, many Palestinians want to wipe Israel off the map.....

Well we could argue who started the war, but it would be more interesting for you to explain how Israel building civillian colonies outside its borders - many on stolen land - shows that Israel actually wants to "live in peace".



7.) Less Palestinian civilians would die if terrorists didn't use them as human shields, something which is forbidden in international law. Tell the Palestinians to stop building their bomb factories next door to kindergartens......

Which again presumes that the military force occupying what is effectively an Apartheid Israeli province are being truthful and honest.


9.) The number of deaths doesn't give an accurate portrayal of the conflict because of Israel's superb health system. Israeli hospitals have been driven by necessity to develop new and better ways of treating victims of terrorist attacks and their ambulances can get to the scene of an attack very quickly. Many injured Palestinians die because their leadership refuses to let them be treated in Israeli hospitals so they're treated in inferior facilities which are often short of equipment and blood supplies.......

Please provide a link to the press release/reportage of this offer.


10.) The Palestinians are(....)collected so this last point may not be relevant..

According to to who? And B'tselem are an Israeli group, by the way.

Israel started the war, or rather Jews by coming en masse to Palestine

There's always been a sizable Jewish population in the Middle East; many Jews fled to the Middle East so that they could escape persecution else where. The land which they arrived in was very sparsely populated so there was no need for the Arabs to attack them.

and the ultimately by proclaiming the Jewish state.

They had a right to self-determination, the Jewish state had a Jewish majority. Besides, Arab violence against Jews began long before the Jewish state was formed, the 1929 Arab Riots and the Hebron massacre for example.

And there is no indication that when Israeli troops kill Palestinian civilians it is accidental.

Your paranoia and hatred for Jews is showing again. :rolleyes:

Apologies are mere words. They also apologized for almost attacking French ships, when it was indeed pretty obvious that these attacks were intentional.[And have they ever apologized for their invasion of Lebanon?

What do you think they should have done? Sat there and watch their civilians being murdered while the Lebanese government did nothing?

. The land which they arrived in was very sparsely populated so there was no need for the Arabs to attack them.

An oversimplification and off topic by a few decades.



.
They had a right to self-determination,

So I keep saying about Palestinians, but for some reason or other they are considered "different" by some.

I await your link re the Hospitals claim.

Israeli forces killed 660 palestinians this year including 141 children.
This figure is nearly three times what they achieved last year
Israelis killed this year numbered 23 down from 50 last year.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6215769.stm
So, you define success as how many people are killed? That's sick.

So, you define success as how many people are killed? of course not.. He is simply highliting the ongoing masacres.

effective title too.

Sorry about the delay, we had a powercut and I had to start typing all over again.

According to the IDF

Certainly. It makes no military sense for the IDF to kill civilians as it'll serve no purpose except giving Israel's enemies another stick to beat them with.

More often than not they don't. Usually its only when it gains international attention.

Or maybe the apology is only widely publicised when it gains international attention? Besides, even if they never issued even one apology then they'd still hold the moral high ground against a foe who celebrate when children are murdered.

Yet it was the Israeli side who left talks in 2002. And as Israel has not removed its settlements or soldiers from the occupied territories, why should Hamas renounce the right to armed struggle?

Which peace talks are you referng to?

The Roadmap to Peace states that the unconditional end to violence must be at the outset of Phase 1, the freezing of settlement building is to take place during the implementation of Phase 1. Hamas have to realise that they can't have their cake and eat it.

Well we could argue who started the war, but it would be more interesting for you to explain how Israel building civillian colonies outside its borders - many on stolen land - shows that Israel actually wants to "live in peace".

Although I personally don't approve of settlement building I don't think they're much of an issue. Israel dismantled it's Sinai settlements as part of it's withdrawal in return for peace with Egypt. If the Palestinians want peace then I'm sure Israel will do the same again.

Which again presumes that the military force occupying what is effectively an Apartheid Israeli province are being truthful and honest.

We know it happens, what can you expect from organisations who recruit children to commit terrorist attacks?

Please provide a link to the press release/reportage of this offer.

It's from the Jerusalem Post a few years back. I'm not sure if it's available online but I'll be happy to dig out the references if you want them.

According to to who? And B'tselem are an Israeli group, by the way.

I don't know how the information was collected which is why I qualified my statement.

It's amazing how some here are defending the actions of the extremists who deliberately target Israeli civilians (men, women, and children) The extremists who tell their own children to strap a bomb on and go play. The extremists who open shop for arms and command posts within the schools, hospitals, and mosques. The Palestinian civilian body count is blood of their own on their own hands.

Israel has the right to exist and to defend themselves in any way, shape, or form. Go Israeli!

Israel has the right to existWhat originates that right?

What originates that right?

I say again they have the right to exist......

.......as you have the right to exist

I cannot see how anyone can justify any of the actions Israel has committed... Firstly, I agree that they have a right to self-determination, but so do the Palestinians (but of course it's always the 'poor' Jews who get their rights trampled, isn't it?). So, Israel had (and has) NO right whatsoever of existing where it is, on stolen Palestinian soil... Only this in itself renders any other arguement used by all you Israel supporters totally irrelevant... By what right do they start negotiations for something that is not rightfully theirs???:gundge:
And if anyone says that Israel only kills civilians by mistake, he/she should be locked in a madhouse permanently... Look at Lebannon ffs... bombing entire appartment blocks FULL of children and other civilians in areas with no Hezbollah fighters... OOPS:headbang: and I also didn't see Palestinians using nuclear weapons against Israel, as Israel did with Lebannon...
The same goes to anyone who says that Hamas and other armed factions should stop fighting... WTF???:confused: while Israel has an armed force ready to destroy all of the middle east, I totally support all opposition to it... :mp5:

Certainly. It makes no military sense for the IDF to kill civilians as it'll serve no purpose except giving Israel's enemies another stick to beat them with..

Unless its "sending a message" in order to instill compliance into an occupied and hostile population.


Or maybe the apology is only widely publicised when it gains international attention?..

As one who follows the issue very closely, I can say "no". They are rare.


Which peace talks are you referng to??..

Taba, 2002.


The Roadmap to Peace states that the unconditional end to violence must be at the outset of Phase 1, the freezing of settlement building is to take place during the implementation of Phase 1. Hamas have to realise that they can't have their cake and eat it.??..

Yet Sharon began increasing settlement building immediately after the withdrawal from Gaza, and attempts on Arab East Jerusalem have never ceased.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4470118.stm


Although I personally don't approve of settlement building I don't think they're much of an issue. Israel dismantled it's Sinai settlements as part of it's withdrawal in return for peace with Egypt. If the Palestinians want peace then I'm sure Israel will do the same again..

Yet strangely any of peace talks, truce or deal has seen a sudden dash to secure territory in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem. Nor does this explain why they are building and expanding existing settlements since the Gaza pullout.


We know it happens, what can you expect from organisations who recruit children to commit terrorist attacks?..

"Palestinian groups - There was no evidence of systematic recruitment of children by Palestinian armed groups."
http://www.child-soldiers.org/document_get.php?id=945



It's from the Jerusalem Post a few years back. I'm not sure if it's available online but I'll be happy to dig out the references if you want them.


I'm sure such a controversial descion is located in a number of places, I was unable to find it on another occassion, and asked a different poster, who had mentioned it, to provide some source or press release. They were unable to. Perhaps you will have more luck.

What originates that right?
The right to a nationality, and hence a nation.

Was it this year or the year before they sent a kid who wasn't all there to blow up an Israeli checkpoint? Poor kid didn't really have a clue what was happening still as I recall they managed to defuse the bomb without shooting him, always wondered what happened to him after that.

Probably shot him.

And have they ever apologized for their invasion of Lebanon

The invasion of Lebanon was undeserving of an apology, as was the death of every civilian killed by the IDF. Lebanon was harboring a terrorist group that had attacked Israel, and hence Israel had every right to declare war. After all, isn't that the excuse the United States used to declare war on Iraq?
As for the killing of "civilians", its war, and there is only one way to win is to wage total war, IE firebomb there cities, hospitals, schools, factories, anything you want, then follow it up with a massive military invasion. And for anyone who says it’s illegal due to the Geneva Convention, war has only one rule: win.

http://www.johnberman.com/pics/funny/not_this_shit_again.jpg

Whats your point?

Probably shot him.

No, they interrogated him and sent him back to the Palestinians.