NationStates Jolt Archive

Have we supported some bad people? Yeah. But, should we take responsibility for the atrocities committed by other nations? No.

We may not be obligated to, but I'd argue we actually did accept responsibility in this case.

We made the monster, and we euthanized him.

We may not be obligated to, but I'd argue we actually did accept responsibility in this case.

We made the monster, and we euthanized him.

That point can be made, yes. We took him down, the Iraqis tried him, sentenced him, we handed him over, they killed him. That's the way justice works.

Now, if we could only do it to the myriad other monsters in the world. But, I'm sure someone would complain if Ayatollah Ali Khamenei was convicted of human rights abuses- and not just the Shi'a.

Are you aware that most if not all of Afghanistan is under full UN mandate and military control and in fact we have very few US troops there because is an international presence. Afghanistan is no longer a "US" war or problem. Its been given to and accepted in full by the UN. So the recent "failures" in Afghanistan is now on the Worlds sholders not ours. And if they cant get it right in Afghanistan what makes you think they would do any better then the US in Iraq?
The UN mandates the situation in Afghanistan but military control is now under NATO (http://www.nato.int/issues/isaf/index.html), as of October 6, 2006, and the US forces (18,000) is 60% of the total number of forces (30,000). Before that, the US led the coalition. Nice attempt at buck passing.

Dear Saddam:

But now I laugh and pull so hard
And see you swinging on the Gallows Pole
Keep-a-swingin'!
Swingin' on the gallows pole!

Gallows Pole by Led Zeppelin

Ah...The sweet smell of justice

-2 years. They did that well before he was executed. Any way, goodbye Saddam. I can't say I will miss you.
Better than we did against Charles Manson

Ignoring the question of who bears responsability for his crimes, and his death.

Saddam through his court antics, the removing of 2 head judges and other moves made the trial a farce.

If a trial is supposed to persuade the public to support the punishment of the defendent, this trial failed to do that.

I don't know what exact steps could have made "the passing of his dark reign" more unifying. I note that there was more celebration on the streets of Baghdad after his arrest than after his execution.

That brings the last point, I think most would agree this marks a wasted opportunity. In their attempt to get swift justice and reconciliation, they ended up with neither.

I believe Riverbend wrote it best:
Sunday, November 05, 2006

When All Else Fails...
… Execute the dictator. It’s that simple. When American troops are being killed by the dozen, when the country you are occupying is threatening to break up into smaller countries, when you have militias and death squads roaming the streets and you’ve put a group of Mullahs in power- execute the dictator.

Thankfully, she's back. Her prolonged absences do worry sometimes.

That point can be made, yes. We took him down, the Iraqis tried him, sentenced him, we handed him over, they killed him. That's the way justice works.
That is okay if you support the kangaroo type trial, which this was.

That is okay if you support the kangaroo type trial, which this was.

I really don’t understand folks who think like you. Saddam was tried by a court that was set up and subject to the laws of a democratically elected government. It was an open trial and news reporters from all over the world sat in on and reported what was going on in the court.

Just because the justice system in Iraq is not set up like the US, UK or some other European country doesn’t mean the trial was not fair. Just because the justice system does not emulate the laws and values of the West does not mean it was not fair.

Perhaps you would have preferred he be tried by a court that practices Shira law.
:eek:

I really don’t understand folks who think like you. Saddam was tried by a court that was set up and subject to the laws of a democratically elected government. It was an open trial and news reporters from all over the world sat in on and reported what was going on in the court.

Just because the justice system in Iraq is not set up like the US, UK or some other European country doesn’t mean the trial was not fair. Just because the justice system does not emulate the laws and values of the West does not mean it was not fair.

Perhaps you would have preferred he be tried by a court that practices Shira law.
:eek:

Not according to some:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6163938.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6164212.stm

The UN mandates the situation in Afghanistan but military control is now under NATO (http://www.nato.int/issues/isaf/index.html), as of October 6, 2006, and the US forces (18,000) is 60% of the total number of forces (30,000). Before that, the US led the coalition. Nice attempt at buck passing.

It wasnt an attempt. As you have stated and supported with your own post its been passed signed for sealed and delivered. What part of the buck are we now obligated for beyond what is our fair share for NATO and UN operations? And what about when NATO AND the UN were begging for European troops in afghanistan and got crickets for MONTHS from other countries in responce to thier requests. Same with Lebannon. The amount of wrangling it took to get these countries to actually commit troops and funds was unbelievable.

I really don’t understand folks who think like you. Saddam was tried by a court that was set up and subject to the laws of a democratically elected government. It was an open trial and news reporters from all over the world sat in on and reported what was going on in the court.


Bullshit. The judges were changed multiple times, and they did not even attempt to hide that they were changing them for political purposes. Not only that, but several times the defense wished to call in experts and were denied, but offered "experts" from the Iraqi government. This wasn't even a kangaroo court. It was a mutant kangaroo court from hell.

I really don’t understand folks who think like you. Saddam was tried by a court that was set up and subject to the laws of a democratically elected government. It was an open trial and news reporters from all over the world sat in on and reported what was going on in the court.

Just because the justice system in Iraq is not set up like the US, UK or some other European country doesn’t mean the trial was not fair. Just because the justice system does not emulate the laws and values of the West does not mean it was not fair.

Perhaps you would have preferred he be tried by a court that practices Shira law.
:eek:
Unlike you, I have no compelling urge to defend any travesty of justice that ended up favourable to the Busheviks of the world.

Do you know the meaning of the word "fair"?

Did anyone watch the video? So far, it's on CNN. I've watched all that they provided, but maybe it is too graphic to show the actual hanging. They siad it was graphic, but a rope around a neck is not terribly graphic.

Did anyone watch the video? So far, it's on CNN. I've watched all but the last 10 seconds. I'm scared that I might be freaked of ropes for the rest of my life. Or I'll become a pacifist or a shivering lump...What do you mean. You don't see him dangle in the video.

Did anyone watch the video? So far, it's on CNN. I've watched all but the last 7 seconds. I'm scared that I might be freaked of ropes for the rest of my life. Or I'll become a pacifist or a shivering lump...

I'm sure New Mitanni knocked one out to it.

Did anyone watch the video? So far, it's on CNN. I've watched all but the last 7 seconds. I'm scared that I might be freaked of ropes for the rest of my life. Or I'll become a pacifist or a shivering lump...

There's a video? Ugh, and I'm just about to have dinner. Damn you CNN!

I won't miss him - he was a bastard - but I'm saddened that he didn't get a fair trial (in my opinion) and that he didn't get convicted for the most serious crimes. He should have been tried for genocide (but that part of the trial, genocide against the kurds, won't continue now), and not only been killed for the 148 people he ordered to be executed.

I guess I'm just left feeling unfulfilled. Kinda like if Mr. Hitler had been brought to trial but convicted of ordering the deaths of a couple of hundred, but never brought to trial for the entire Final Solution, the Holocaust and the invasions he ordered.

I want more justice!

That's what he gets for attacking us on 9/11 and then targeting us with his huge stockpile of nukes.

Ummm...

Iraqis had nothing to do with 9/11.

And Iraq does not have any WMDs.

Nor did Saddam threaten to use any.

"So why are we in Iraq!?"

Answer: Because Bush told a lie, and now we are in there because he said so.

Ummm...

Iraqis had nothing to do with 9/11.

And Iraq does not have any WMDs.

Nor did Saddam threaten to use any.

"So why are we in Iraq!?"

Answer: Because Bush told a lie, and now we are in there because he said so.I suppose Gartref forgot this: :rolleyes:

I won't miss him - he was a bastard - but I'm saddened that he didn't get a fair trial (in my opinion) and that he didn't get convicted for the most serious crimes. He should have been tried for genocide (but that part of the trial, genocide against the kurds, won't continue now), and not only been killed for the 184 people he ordered to be executed.

I guess I'm just left feeling unfulfilled. Kinda like if Mr. Hitler had been brought to trial but convicted of ordering the deaths of a couple of hundred, but never brought to trial for the entire Final Solution, the Holocaust and the invasions he ordered.

I want more justice!
We could hang him again.
Ummm...

Iraqis had nothing to do with 9/11.

And Iraq does not have any WMDs.

Nor did Saddam threaten to use any.

"So why are we in Iraq!?"

Answer: Because Bush told a lie, and now we are in there because he said so.

Gartef was joking.

Did anyone watch the video? So far, it's on CNN. I've watched all that they provided, but maybe it is too graphic to show the actual hanging. They siad it was graphic, but a rope around a neck is not terribly graphic.

Yeah, but he could've ejaculated, which can happen when you're hanged. They can't get away with that on TV.

If the US was not on the security council with a veto
the US would right now be the subject of numerous resolutions
If the US did not have the most exceedingly well equipped armed forces
with the most advanced and destructive weaponry that it has no
hesitation in using against men women and children from any country
that scares it, it would right now be facing a legal coalition expelling you from Iraq
just as you were the primary nation in the legal coalition expelling Iraq from Kuwait

The US are a criminal element in this situation and the situation cannot improve
while they remain.
As we told you before you invaded
just after you invaded
before your first year was over
before your second year was over
before your third year was over
etc etc

Like capone saying he wouldnt leave chicago until all this mob violence was going on

I just got up this morning and read this post and I'm already LMAO!

Thanks, D. You're an inexhaustable source of laughs :D

We could hang him again.

I just wanted to see him convicted for those crimes... :(

Ah well, humanity has missed another chance, and the legacy of Iraq will be poorer for it in the long run.

I won't miss him - he was a bastard - but I'm saddened that he didn't get a fair trial (in my opinion) and that he didn't get convicted for the most serious crimes. He should have been tried for genocide (but that part of the trial, genocide against the kurds, won't continue now), and not only been killed for the 148 people he ordered to be executed.

I guess I'm just left feeling unfulfilled. Kinda like if Mr. Hitler had been brought to trial but convicted of ordering the deaths of a couple of hundred, but never brought to trial for the entire Final Solution, the Holocaust and the invasions he ordered.

I want more justice!

I want more justice too.....I want the USA and others to recognize the World Court......many countries have committed war crimes and are hiding murderous criminals, often treating them like hero's.....

Saddam should have been turned over to the World Court there would have been no question of a fair trial and he would have been convicted and spent the remainder of his life in alone in a cell....

yeah it doesnt matter if bush told a lie and thats why we are in iraq. the war i s just a way spell brought on by the spirit of war and a curse to keep the population of the world a little more steady

Nope. Legal, UN-approved, US Senate-approved.

The UN begs to differ.

Really, does this accomplish anything? Saddam has been hanged for crimes he committed with the full knowledge and tacit approval of the American government of the time. To some, he is now a Martyr, to others, its just another person killed by the US occupation. Iraq won't improve from his death, and it is quite likely he will be remembered many years from now as a hero rather than the tyrant he is.

I don't disagree with you. America has done some downright shitty things, and I'm not going to defend the government.

My issue is with the groups that deny all wrongdoing that wasn't cause by America. I'll let them in on a little secret- all their problems aren't all caused by America or Israel.

Methinks the Khmer Rouge, the Taliban, and Augusto Pinochet were a teensy bit worse than Ronald Reagan.

To put it simply, Saddam was weighed, measured, and found wanting. He was punished by his own people for crimes against his own people. I don't see how people think he deserved anything less than what he got.

And who do you think put Augusto Pinochet in power, while at the same time helping to overthrow and eventually kill a popular democratically elected president. And who do you suppose supported Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge only because they were locked in battle with communist Vietnam. As if to fight communism the deaths of over 2 million people mean nothing.

While Saddam was butchering his own people in the 80's, America or the CIA I suppose was wreaking havoc across Latin America. All those people in countries like Grenada, Panama, Chile, and El Salvador who died because America and their Monroe Doctrine wouldn't let them choose their own destines, have got to receive some sort of justice.

The thousands who died at the hands of the Shah of Iran and SAVAK death squads also cry out for justice. The Iranians had gotten rid of the Shah, elected through the democratic process their own prime minister, only to watch it all come un-done at the hands of the CIA. The Americans put the Shah back in power knowing that he was out for vengeance, and while he killed his people they never batted a single eyelash. That means that America had/has the blood of every Iranian who was killed by the Shah on their hands.

Saddam killed his own people at his own discretion, America neither helped him nor even helped put him in power. But the Shah is all America's fault, they brought the deposed bastard back and stifled Iran's most successful try at democracy. Where is the justice for the pain and suffering America(not the people, the gov't) has caused across the globe.

I think it's very appropriate for Saddam being tried, convicted, and executed by the Iraqis. Like I said earlier, Good Riddens to Saddam. As many of you profess that it wasn't a fair trial, who gives a damn. Do you deny that he gassed hundred of thousands of Kurds? Do you deny that he brutally tortured Iraqis? Do you deny that he allowed many rapes of the Iraqi women of all ages? Do you deny of his war crimes and crimes against humanity? Some of you sicken me how you are jumping to the defense of an evil, mass-murderering tyrant who, YES, deserved to die. Yes I said deserve to die, especially by the hands of the Iraqis. It's very saddening, how some of you refuse to be happy of the Iraqi people. The vast majority of Iraqis are glad Saddam is dead.

Some of you have me convinced that no matter what goes on in this world, no matter how good or bad it is you'll still complain and bicker your miserable selves about. This truly tells me how miserable some people are and it's very saddening. Constant bickering and negativity. Oh well, Life goes on well except for Saddam. :D

yeah it doesnt matter if bush told a lie and thats why we are in iraq. the war i s just a way spell brought on by the spirit of war and a curse to keep the population of the world a little more steady
Can any one squeeze some English out of this?
I just wanted to see him convicted for those crimes... :(
Same here. As someone else already said, this is like executing Hitler before trying him for the Final Solution.
Ah well, humanity has missed another chance, and the legacy of Iraq will be poorer for it in the long run.
Indeed.
I think it's very appropriate for Saddam being tried, convicted, and executed by the Iraqis.
Appropriate, biased, whatever.
Like I said earlier, Good Riddens to Saddam. As many of you profess that it wasn't a fair trial, who gives a damn. Do you deny that he gassed hundred of thousands of Kurds? Do you deny that he brutally tortured Iraqis? Do you deny that he allowed many rapes of the Iraqi women of all ages? Do you deny of his war crimes and crimes against humanity? Some of you sicken me how you are jumping to the defense of an evil, mass-murderering tyrant who, YES, deserved to die. Yes I said deserve to die, especially by the hands of the Iraqis. It's very saddening, how some of you refuse to be happy of the Iraqi people.
It's far more saddening that you would throw away the principles of liberty and justice for all of the country you claim to love because of the brutality of Saddam's reign. The fact that he did those things should be more reason to try him fairly, to show the world that justice is indeed blind.
The vast majority of Iraqis are glad Saddam is dead.
Source?
Some of you have me convinced that no matter what goes on in this world, no matter how good or bad it is you'll still complain and bicker your miserable selves about. This truly tells me how miserable some people are and it's very saddening. Constant bickering and negativity. Oh well, Life goes on well except for Saddam. :D

Yes, we will always have something to complain about. Because this world is far from perfect, and may never be perfect, but that's no reason not to wish for it to be.

I
As many of you profess that it wasn't a fair trial, who gives a damn.

I guess Americans who think justice actually does matter give a damn.


Some of you have me convinced that no matter what goes on in this world, no matter how good or bad it is you'll still complain and bicker your miserable selves about. This truly tells me how miserable some people are and it's very saddening. Constant bickering and negativity.

It's interesting that you're ranting negatively and complaining about other people on the forum supposedly doing the same thing. Interesting in the "you're a total hypocrite, but we've come to expect such blatant idiocy from you by now" way.

Get ready for the real fun: an orgy of moral masturbation by the anti-death penalty fanatics and absolutists, shrieking and screaming about how morally superior they are for opposing capital punishment under any circumstance and about how nothing can possibly justify the deliberate killing of a human being.

That's going to be more enjoyable than contemplating Saddam fitted for a suit of flame. :D

at the outset, let me apologize for my moral superiority, fanaticism, and perverted exhibitionism. here we go:

i think that killing people punitively is murder. it's revenge. at its best, it's only eye-for-an-eye 'justice'.

there are situations where killing people is not murder. it is possible to a kill person without murdering them, when there are strong reasons to believe that they have the capacity and are highly likely to use that capacity to cause serious injury to others, who do not present a similar threat. in these cases, all non-violent forms of prevention and preemption must be unavailable. beyond this, every option for non-lethal force must be unavailable. if saddam was shooting his rifle into a crowd at a mall, and a police officer, who only had a gun and was not in a position to successfully tackle saddam, shot him in the head or chest to stop him as quickly as possible, and thereby killed him, the police officer would have killed saddam, but not murdered him. the police officer would have murdered saddam if he had a non-violent or non-lethal means to successfully stop saddam.

in the most recent case of saddam in the iraqi courts, there was no need to murder him; his threat was already contained by handcuffs. he presented no clear and present danger. his execution was murder. it was revenge. it was a-life-for-a-thousand-lives justice.

those who revel in revenge should rethink it. there is no piety or justice in revenge, even a bargain revenge like a a-life-for-a-thousand-lives. it only adds to the rage in the world and its destructive force.

those who support the murder of saddam on the grounds that it sends a useful message to the world need to think more broadly about the message they are sending. their message of "if you murder us, we will murder you" is a formulation of the message "might makes right". this message may deter some people from committing murder, but it may also encourage others to apply the same ideology of terrorism. controlling people by fear, by penalties, by punitive measures has a long tradition. the 'realists' out there are correct to point out its historical predominance, but they forget the meaning of morality. morality is not limited by the facts; it is not a description of what 'is', but a description of what 'can and ought to be'. to the extent that reality fits our ideals, we are moral.

sorry for the sermon, but it should be noted that those who morally oppose the death penalty can also consistently support the last-resort violence of killing dangerous murderers. after he was detained, saddam was only a murderer; he was no longer dangerous enough to kill.

I'm sure New Mitanni knocked one out to it.

As a matter of fact, I just saw the video--on Fox, of course :p

Unfortunately, it ends before his neck got stretched. Hopefully someone will rectify that deficiency at a later date. I'll be sure to record it.

I think it's very appropriate for Saddam being tried, convicted, and executed by the Iraqis. Like I said earlier, Good Riddens to Saddam. As many of you profess that it wasn't a fair trial, who gives a damn.
So you're no fan of rule of law then? I like it myself, and I would like to have seen it implemented in Iraq.

I have no doubt that he would be convicted even if it had been a fair trial. So why give a damn since he was convicted anyway?

The problem is the aftermath and the long run. Years or months from now there may be people who say - and mean - that Saddam wasn't that bad. After all, it's not like he got a chance to defend himself from the accusations against him? Heck, he probably didn't even do all those nasty things either, seeing as he wasn't convicted of those - even under an unfair trial.

I would have liked to see a precedent set, that even murderous dictators will be brought to justice - proper justice. I would have liked to see that the democracy that the US was supposed to bring included the right to a fair trial - even for monsters. I don't want to hear anything about how Saddam was wrongfully convicted due to the fact that the trial was unfair and the outcome given from the start. If that was the point, then why even have a trial in the first place?

That's why I give a damn. I want us all to improve and to be better. Justitia omnibus.

Do you deny that he gassed hundred of thousands of Kurds? Do you deny that he brutally tortured Iraqis? Do you deny that he allowed many rapes of the Iraqi women of all ages? Do you deny of his war crimes and crimes against humanity?
Then why not take him to trial over it, and convict him of it? As it could be seen now, those (except the Crimes against humanity for ordering the deaths of 148 people) are only accusations.

I would like to have seen him convicted of it all.

Some of you sicken me how you are jumping to the defense of an evil, mass-murderering tyrant who, YES, deserved to die. Yes I said deserve to die, especially by the hands of the Iraqis. It's very saddening, how some of you refuse to be happy of the Iraqi people. The vast majority of Iraqis are glad Saddam is dead.
But let us not become the monsters we fight. We are better than them, and we hold ourselves to a higher standard.

That said, I'm happy for the Iraqi people - but he was removed from power long ago, and was powerless today. So I'm sad that this doesn't really solve much. I'm sad because the killing continues. I'm sad because no end is in sight. And that overshadows my happiness.

Some of you have me convinced that no matter what goes on in this world, no matter how good or bad it is you'll still complain and bicker your miserable selves about. This truly tells me how miserable some people are and it's very saddening. Constant bickering and negativity. Oh well, Life goes on well except for Saddam. :D
Yeah... That's your view...

Just heard (on Fox) that the stiff was flown to Tikrit--on a US military aircraft, no less!--and turned over to the family there.

Bad move. It should have been buried in an unmarked grave. Or better yet, burned and scattered.

It's interesting how the right media would over-emphasis Saddam's domestic suppression, and not mention the million plus Iranians that died essentially with US bullets and chemical weapons, just because the US did not like the democratic Islamic regime in Tehran, and Saddam was more than willing to invade.

Iran, democratic?

Bwahahahahahahaha!

*dies of laughter*

You know.. I've been examining how I felt with the news of Saddam's death... and I admit, I thought I would be happy, or at least glad. but I find that I really just don't care about Saddam anymore.

so Meh.

*dies of laughter*

*Starts "Congo--Kinshasa is dead." thread* :p

@ Saddam - Rest in Hell you ****. :cool:

And what about when NATO AND the UN were begging for European troops in afghanistan and got crickets for MONTHS from other countries in responce to thier requests.
That is probably due to the US changing the rules of engagement? When the US first went into Afghanistan, they sent lots of troops to "hunt down" Bin Laden and his al queda friends. Then Bush got bored and sent most of the troops up to Iraq to go after Saddam Hussein. $300 Billion later and after the deaths of 3,000 US troops and hundreds of thousand Iraqi deaths, Bush can be happy that the man who tried to kill his daddy is now dead.

Yeah, Saddam was such a threat to the US, that they needed 200,000 troops to track down this dangerous man. :rolleyes:

Where is Osama again? You know, the guy that actually was responsible for flying airplanes into US buildings?

Oh yeah, thats right, Bush hardly even thinks about Osama anymore:

"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him."
- G.W. Bush, 9/13/01

"I want justice...There's an old poster out West, as I recall, that said, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive,'"
- G.W. Bush, 9/17/01, UPI

"...Secondly, he is not escaping us. This is a guy, who, three months ago, was in control of a county [sic]. Now he's maybe in control of a cave. He's on the run. Listen, a while ago I said to the American people, our objective is more than bin Laden. But one of the things for certain is we're going to get him running and keep him running, and bring him to justice. And that's what's happening. He's on the run, if he's running at all. So we don't know whether he's in cave with the door shut, or a cave with the door open -- we just don't know...."
- Bush, in remarks in a Press Availablity with the Press Travel Pool,
The Prairie Chapel Ranch, Crawford TX, 12/28/01, as reported on
official White House site

"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
- G.W. Bush, 3/13/02

"I am truly not that concerned about him."
- G.W. Bush, repsonding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts,
3/13/02 (The New American, 4/8/02)
You see, Bin Laden was not the real objective.....it was Saddam.

And here is a lesson to all would-be Third World Dictators:

Don't ever accept American help, even from the CIA. They'll just all eventually turn on you.

Hussein found this out too late. So did Noriega. And Ngo Dinh Diem. And Gus Pinochet.

Just heard (on Fox) that the stiff was flown to Tikrit--on a US military aircraft, no less!--and turned over to the family there.

Bad move. It should have been buried in an unmarked grave. Or better yet, burned and scattered.
Why?
@ Saddam - Rest in Hell you ****. :cool:
Great first post :rolleyes:
And here is a lesson to all would-be Third World Dictators:

Don't ever accept American help, even from the CIA. They'll just all eventually turn on you.

Hussein found this out too late. So did Noriega. And Ngo Dinh Diem. And Gus Pinochet.

QFT

Well seeing how Dubya isn't a sick satanical bastard who killed Kerry and Gore (Yes Saddam did kill political opponents) or kill innocent civilians for his own sick amusement, or hell, even set up fake trials in the 'guise of "justice", I doubt you can put Dubya, no matter how bad of a President he may be, on the same level as Saddam. Any attempt to do so just makes you look like an idiot and a jackass.

Ok, so he hasn't killed his political opponents or american civillians yet, but his little war has caused how many to die in Iraq? 300,000+ right? Oh and don't talk about him trying to give fail trials to anyone, what about his powers to hold people indefinitly, and able to try them before a military tribunal without lawyers? Thats in the "guise of justice", in "fighting terror" is it not?

Just heard (on Fox) that the stiff was flown to Tikrit--on a US military aircraft, no less!--and turned over to the family there.

Bad move. It should have been buried in an unmarked grave. Or better yet, burned and scattered.
"Remember, to hate, to be violent, is demeaning.
It means you're afraid of the other side of the coin
-- to love and be loved."

James Baldwin (1924-1987), writer

"Hate is like a cancer. It doesn't matter if you have a
little cancer or a lot of cancer - it's still cancer!"

Unknown

"Destruction of your neighbor and even your enemy is destruction of yourself."

~~Dalai Lama~~

"He who angers you controls you!"

"Remember, to hate, to be violent, is demeaning.
It means you're afraid of the other side of the coin
-- to love and be loved."

James Baldwin (1924-1987), writer

"Hate is like a cancer. It doesn't matter if you have a
little cancer or a lot of cancer - it's still cancer!"

Unknown

"Destruction of your neighbor and even your enemy is destruction of yourself."

~~Dalai Lama~~

"He who angers you controls you!"

"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I won't."

General George S. Patton

"The American people, in their righteous might, will win through to absolute victory."

President Franklin D. Roosevelt

*Starts "Congo--Kinshasa is dead." thread* :p

Yay! My own thread! *is revived to due to ecstatic happiness, gives JuNii 99 tacos and a few dozen cookies*

"Remember, to hate, to be violent, is demeaning.
It means you're afraid of the other side of the coin
-- to love and be loved."

James Baldwin (1924-1987), writer

James Baldwin FTW!

And here is a lesson to all would-be Third World Dictators:

Don't ever accept American help, even from the CIA. They'll just all eventually turn on you.

Hussein found this out too late. So did Noriega. And Ngo Dinh Diem. And Gus Pinochet.

And Mobutu.

"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I won't."

General George S. Patton

"The American people, in their righteous might, will win through to absolute victory."

President Franklin D. Roosevelt

"Americans are teh dummies"

-Me :p

As a matter of fact, I just saw the video--on Fox, of course :p

Unfortunately, it ends before his neck got stretched. Hopefully someone will rectify that deficiency at a later date. I'll be sure to record it.

I doubt you have the stomach to see someone die. It's not clean, like they show you in the movies.

That's what he gets for attacking us on 9/11 and then targeting us with his huge stockpile of nukes.

Sorry Gartref to argue, as we have been told right now officialy, it was Alquida, or whatever they're called, who attacked the US on 9/11, NOT Sadam. though still, I hope the little bugger rots in his grave and burns in hell. Thank you for this pleasing news.

Sorry Gartref to argue, as we have been told right now officialy, it was Alquida, or whatever they're called, who attacked the US on 9/11, NOT Sadam. though still, I hope the little bugger rots in his grave and burns in hell. Thank you for this pleasing news.

Gartef wasn't being serious. Sarcasm is hard to detect on the interwebs, but you get used to it.

Saddam has been hanged as of 10pm EST. Go to CNN or Fox for the news.

I suggest you get your facts straight! It was 10:05pm EST. ;)

mmmmmmmm

Not too big on the eye for an eye thing.

I doubt you have the stomach to see someone die. It's not clean, like they show you in the movies.

Like the Nick Berg video, maybe? How about Daniel Pearl?

And long before Moslem savages began filming Islamic human sacrifices, there were the "Faces of Death" movies.

So I'm still waiting for the full video :)

That is okay if you support the kangaroo type trial, which this was.

Man, I love kangaroos. They're the absolute funniest creatures.

I'd rather he have been tried by the Iraqis in the manner he was than tried by the ICC in the Hague. The last guy they tried to convict of war crimes died in the middle of the trial!

Man, I love kangaroos. They're the absolute funniest creatures.

I'd rather he have been tried by the Iraqis in the manner he was than tried by the ICC in the Hague. The last guy they tried to convict of war crimes died in the middle of the trial!

Platypi are far funnier.

And who do you think put Augusto Pinochet in power, while at the same time helping to overthrow and eventually kill a popular democratically elected president. And who do you suppose supported Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge only because they were locked in battle with communist Vietnam. As if to fight communism the deaths of over 2 million people mean nothing.

The Khmer Rouge were actually communists. America just had better things to do than fuck around with them.

Sure, Pinochet's a bad example. I'll give you that.

While Saddam was butchering his own people in the 80's, America or the CIA I suppose was wreaking havoc across Latin America. All those people in countries like Grenada, Panama, Chile, and El Salvador who died because America and their Monroe Doctrine wouldn't let them choose their own destines, have got to receive some sort of justice.

Something tells me that if it weren't for the Monroe Doctrine, South America would look a lot like those shitty countries in Africa, only worse, because Europe would have raped them absolutely silly.

The thousands who died at the hands of the Shah of Iran and SAVAK death squads also cry out for justice. The Iranians had gotten rid of the Shah, elected through the democratic process their own prime minister, only to watch it all come un-done at the hands of the CIA. The Americans put the Shah back in power knowing that he was out for vengeance, and while he killed his people they never batted a single eyelash. That means that America had/has the blood of every Iranian who was killed by the Shah on their hands.

Hokeydokey then. Blame the British, too, because they deposed Mohammed Mossadegh. Also, you can blame Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomenei, for starting a revolution from outside the country and contributing to the horrendous blooshed. I suppose that this (http://www.hyscience.com/photos/hanging.jpg) is just a fun game that all the Iranians play after they finish prayers.

Saddam killed his own people at his own discretion, America neither helped him nor even helped put him in power. But the Shah is all America's fault, they brought the deposed bastard back and stifled Iran's most successful try at democracy. Where is the justice for the pain and suffering America(not the people, the gov't) has caused across the globe.

Take a look at my sig and read the quote very slowly to yourself.

I am not an apologist for injustice on anyone's part. I condemn inhumanity and cruelty. But I also condemn those who blame America for all the problems in the world, because they are not only lying to themselves, they are perpetrating falsehood and outrages against the truth.

Justice comes to everyone, in one way or another.

Like the Nick Berg video, maybe? How about Daniel Pearl?

And long before Moslem savages began filming Islamic human sacrifices, there were the "Faces of Death" movies.

So I'm still waiting for the full video :)

Decapitation is cleaner than hanging. Also, your bloodthirsty, monstrous, depraved side is showing.

Decapitation is cleaner than hanging.

You've just reached a new low with that statement. :rolleyes:

Also, your bloodthirsty, monstrous, depraved side is showing.

"Monstrous?" "Depraved?" You must be referring to Berg's and Pearl's killers. "Bloodthirsty?" I'm not trying to hide it. As I've said before, I don't care about being "better" than the enemy, I care about destroying the enemy.

And when the full video becomes available, not only will I record it, I'll have my favorite bottle of bourbon handy to drink a toast and say "Sic semper tyrannis".

mmmmmmmm

Not too big on the eye for an eye thing.

eye for an eye leaves everybody blind.....but if we dont punish those who commit crimes...what are we left with? Criminals running around on the streets. You know, i think i like the idea of letting sexual predators walk the streets with my little neice. I also like knowing that in your world the BTK killer could walk the streets. wow, buddy, your world sounds really great.

There are certain elements of society that have shown themselves to be unworthy to be in said society, and keeping them locked in prison for the rest of their miserable existances doesn't help them any, and it costs the taxpayers far more money than they are worth. And killing them whisks them away to a far speedier and far more absolute judgement than they would have gotten here.

i.e. Saddam Hussein

Along with Saddam died my belief in man's capability of mercy.

You've just reached a new low with that statement. :rolleyes:


It is. Quite a bit of blood, but no bruising, no skin splitting from the sheer amount of coagulating blood, no tongue being forced out of one's mouth...

I'm not saying it's worse. I'm saying that just because you are able to look at a decapitation doesn't mean you'd be able to look at a hanging. Some methods of death cause more of a mess than others.

eye for an eye leaves everybody blind.....but if we dont punish those who commit crimes...what are we left with? Criminals running around on the streets. You know, i think i like the idea of letting sexual predators walk the streets with my little neice. I also like knowing that in your world the BTK killer could walk the streets. wow, buddy, your world sounds really great.

An eye for an eye is doing what the criminal did to the victim, or a rapist gets raped for punishment and a murderer gets killed for their punishment. The author of the quote "An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind" was a very intelligent barrister (lawyer) named Mohandas K. Gandhi.

But how do we know wether he was Saddam Hussein or one of his doubles?
:-)

DNA is your friend.

Did you test him yourself? ;-)

But maybe I'm being too suspicious. They'll certainly release soon his body to his family, and they'll be able to do the DNA test by themselves, and prove that you're correct :-)

Like the Nick Berg video, maybe? How about Daniel Pearl?

And long before Moslem savages began filming Islamic human sacrifices, there were the "Faces of Death" movies.

So I'm still waiting for the full video :)

Note: 85% of the footage in the Faces of Death movies was fake.

Along with Saddam died my belief in man's capability of mercy.

Guess you don't read any of those WW2 books about the Russian front do you?

"Monstrous?" "Depraved?" You must be referring to Berg's and Pearl's killers. "Bloodthirsty?" I'm not trying to hide it. As I've said before, I don't care about being "better" than the enemy, I care about destroying the enemy.

And when the full video becomes available, not only will I record it, I'll have my favorite bottle of bourbon handy to drink a toast and say "Sic semper tyrannis".
Doesn't calling someone a tyrant have some moral weight to it, which would be negated by openly admitting to be worse than the enemy?

Delete the link. Links to graphic material are banned.

"Bloodthirsty?" I'm not trying to hide it. As I've said before, I don't care about being "better" than the enemy, I care about destroying the enemy.

Right. You're not any different from the terrorists. With the exception that instead of "destroying the enemy," all you are doing is wanking around on a message board. A typical internet tough guy.

"Bloodthirsty?" I'm not trying to hide it. As I've said before, I don't care about being "better" than the enemy, I care about destroying the enemy.

"blah blah blah look into the Abyss blah blah blah Abyss looks into you blah blah blah fighting monsters blah blah blah become a monster."

-Friedrich Nietzsche, extremely heavily paraphrased

"blah blah blah look into the Abyss blah blah blah Abyss looks into you blah blah blah fighting monsters blah blah blah become a monster."

-Friedrich Nietzsche, extremely heavily paraphrased

"Liberal, all too liberal."

-Friedrich Nietzsche, less heavily paraphrased.

"Liberal, all too liberal."

-Friedrich Nietzsche, less heavily paraphrased.

LOL THATS FUNNY AND RELEVANT! U R LEET!

LOL THATS FUNNY AND RELEVANT! U R LEET!

o.O?

o.O?

He's snapped. He's finally snapped.

Right lads, lets get the straightjacket for Trostia. Someone get his legs, and grab the sedagive for God's SAKE!

I think it's very appropriate for Saddam being tried, convicted, and executed by the Iraqis. Like I said earlier, Good Riddens to Saddam. As many of you profess that it wasn't a fair trial, who gives a damn. Do you deny that he gassed hundred of thousands of Kurds? Do you deny that he brutally tortured Iraqis? Do you deny that he allowed many rapes of the Iraqi women of all ages? Do you deny of his war crimes and crimes against humanity? Some of you sicken me how you are jumping to the defense of an evil, mass-murderering tyrant who, YES, deserved to die. Yes I said deserve to die, especially by the hands of the Iraqis. It's very saddening, how some of you refuse to be happy of the Iraqi people. The vast majority of Iraqis are glad Saddam is dead.

Some of you have me convinced that no matter what goes on in this world, no matter how good or bad it is you'll still complain and bicker your miserable selves about. This truly tells me how miserable some people are and it's very saddening. Constant bickering and negativity. Oh well, Life goes on well except for Saddam. :D

I just have to point out, for the sake of balance, that Saddam started out as a force for good - a moderate force that resisted the extremism and fundamentalism, and that actually empowered women for many years.

Iraq got screwed by Iran, and they got screwed by the US. They got screwed by Kuwait after they stepped in between Kuwait and Iran... and after they confronted Kuwait about wanting some of the costs of that war defrayed, they got screwed by just about everyone else on the world stage.

This isn't excusing Saddam. This isn't excusing the evils of the later part of that regime.

But, we are at least partly responsible for that sordid history. We are certainly responsible for ignoring the unpleasant truths of Iraq, or any number of other regimes, while it suited us.

Saddam was made into a monster.

o.O?

It was very subtle sarcasm.

Guess you don't read any of those WW2 books about the Russian front do you?

Well, the most I know about in WW2 was of the Battle of Stalinberg... I haven't really read much on the Russian front though. That'll probably be in the next semester for World History.

Stalinberg?

Stalinberg?
It's just forty leagues down the Nolga river from Carlsberg, in the Kamchatka region of Germany.

And the usual "Saddam was the US's puppet" nonsense.

Who gave him over 40B in aid alone? The Saudi's, Kuwait, and the UAE
Who provided the overwhelming majority of his military supplies? The Soviets, French, Egypt, and China.
Who provided him w/ nuclear technology(promptly blown up by the Isreali's)? The French
Who provided him with the majority of his chemical weapon capabilities? Singapore, Netherlands, Egypt, India, and Germany.

I guess some people need to "educate" themselves.

Who put him to power and supported him as long as he served their purposes?

Who put him to power and supported him as long as he served their purposes?
http://www.awolbush.com/rumsfeld_saddam.jpg

The second video (probably captured by a cell phone) was the icing that this execution wasn't a fair one. All the attendees were Shiites and some of them (or all) are linked with Muqtada. What I'm concluding and more Sunnis are also thinking this way is, this was more of revenge than justice being served. Then that moron minister wants a dialogue with the Sunni insurgents (yeah we killed one of your leaders, we taunted him and gave him no fair trial-though we lied to the world that he's being given a fair trial unlike his victims, and enjoyed breaking his neck...so your next but please can you disarm yourselves first, it’ll make our jobs much easier that way :D )

http://www.awolbush.com/rumsfeld_saddam.jpg

So going to war with them is out of the question and engaging in talks is out of the question. Hmmmmm, doesn't really leave many more options.

Who put him to power and supported him as long as he served their purposes?

Who then tried to fix their mistake unlike everybody mentioned above?

It didn't feel right that he was executed.
He was a massmurderer but also did good things for welfare in his country.

It's brutal and pointless to execute him even though he should have been punnished.

It really proves that the human rights are just thyranni and pridefull imperialism in a new form.
I hate FN and "crimes against the humanity".
It's just as bad to dictate what other nations can or can't do.
Also we don't have the right to judge we don't understand these countries to begin with.


Hypocracy.

It doesn't bring back the people he killed.

The second video (probably captured by a cell phone) was the icing that this execution wasn't a fair one. All the attendees were Shiites and some of them (or all) are linked with Muqtada. What I'm concluding and more Sunnis are also thinking this way is, this was more of revenge than justice being served. Then that moron minister wants a dialogue with the Sunni insurgents (yeah we killed one of your leaders, we taunted him and gave him no fair trial-though we lied to the world that he's being given a fair trial unlike his victims, and enjoyed breaking his neck...so your next but please can you disarm yourselves first, it’ll make our jobs much easier that way :D )

It's been said (http://forums3.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12148021&postcount=79), and what's more, it's true.

It doesn't bring back the people he killed.It's not supposed to.

Stalinberg?

Sorry, I meant Stalingrad. I must have said New Stalinberg's name on accident. I do know, though, that the Nazis really, really, really hated commies. I think he must have meant what the Germans did to captured Russians in WW2. Not very pretty, from what I've read. Russian extermination camps. *shudders*

It makes more sense, though, when you learn that Hitler was regularly injected with methamphetimine, sometimes more than five times a day. It makes you wonder whether it was really Hitler or the meth talking, since meth brings great, extreme paranoia. I think his paranoia from the meth was what perpetuated, if not started, the Holocaust, since it was first synthesized in 1893. Also, he was beaten as a child, which may have contributed to this. I certainly am appalled by the horrors that came from his orders, but I only seek to understand why he did it.

When you kill someone, in my opinion, you´re making sure that person doesnt commit a crime anymore.

But why kill Sadam? The guy did good and bad things for his country. Things he wouldnt be alowed to do anymore, even if freed. The guy was too old and didnt had any power left anymore.

So, killing him is justice? I dont think so. If it was justice, it was though the eyes of the pupet government of current Iraq.

They do have a right to a speedy process, I'll agree to that.

It has to be fair too. Not much point going to court if the moment you step in there, the judge goes "guilty" and you get hanged 20 seconds later.

Or a circus that lasts for 3 months but had the outcome predetermined 2 months before that.

Neither of those are fair.

Who then tried to fix their mistake unlike everybody mentioned above?

The correct answer of course, is nobody. If you drop a vase on the floor and it breaks, putting the pieces in a blender is not going to make it any better.

Unless your disposing of the evidence of course.

It was very subtle sarcasm.

I figured as much. :D

As much as the guy was probably asking for it. I think our beloved leader handled it wrong as usual.

For all the bitching that the world does about Gitmo and not using the Courts of the Hague; would this have not been a great opportunity to score some points by handing Sadaam over to the Hague?

Instead we had a questionable court proceeding which will be deemed as a joke by many and will simply add to the animosity of the sunni and shiite.

Oh well status quo I guess.....

Neutralized when kept in captivity, he has now become a martyr after being subjected to an unfair trial and being killed quickly - during a holy period where no-one should be executed no less - causing all his secrets to go with him to the grave. He wasn't even convicted of genocide.

But none of that will cause any problems, surely...

As much as the guy was probably asking for it. I think our beloved leader handled it wrong as usual.

For all the bitching that the world does about Gitmo and not using the Courts of the Hague; would this have not been a great opportunity to score some points by handing Sadaam over to the Hague?

Instead we had a questionable court proceeding which will be deemed as a joke by many and will simply add to the animosity of the sunni and shiite.

Oh well status quo I guess.....The circumstances of the execution (with folks shouting al-Sadr's name and all) cast considerable doubts on the validity of the entire proceedings.

Fact: the Iraqis tried, sentenced and executed him, and a stay was filed by the US. Go figure.

Fact: The US trained the judges and the lawyers and drew up the rules of the court to which you say the "Iraqi's" tried him.

Fact: The US did not seek a stay, only a delay..

http://edition.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/world/2007/01/01/todd.saddam.execution.cnn&wm=10

Fact: He did not get a fair trial.

And for all those who say he never gave anyone a fair trial so why should we care? We should care because if we did what we excused him of, that makes us no better. FACT!

I can't say I supported it, I don't think it was the right decision, but if you think I'll shed a tear, get your head examined.

Yes, he's dead.

Without a chance to raise the Kurd retaliation issue after the US withdrew prematurely after Gulf War I. Or the issue of the European sales of mustard gas ingredients during the Iraq-Iran war.

He's dead and that comes in really handy.

Yes, he's dead.

Without a chance to raise the Kurd retaliation issue after the US withdrew prematurely after Gulf War I. Or the issue of the European sales of mustard gas ingredients during the Iraq-Iran war.

He's dead and that come in really handy.Indeed. He should have been tried for all the other crimes, too, not just this "minor" one. Just to have the process recount all the details. But now of course we will never have a complete picture about what really happened and who was involved.

http://www.awolbush.com/rumsfeld_saddam.jpg

He can still be tried for the mountain of other crimes he is guilty of.

We just dont have to feed,dress or keep the scumbag secure anymore.

Now we can finish up with the ever stylish "Chemical Ali" and the other low-lives.

He wasnt "murdered" as so many squeak in here- he was ferreted out and exterminated like the vermin he was.

Neutralized when kept in captivity, he has now become a martyr after being subjected to an unfair trial and being killed quickly - during a holy period where no-one should be executed no less - causing all his secrets to go with him to the grave. He wasn't even convicted of genocide.

But none of that will cause any problems, surely...

What secrets do you really think he'd be giving up? Are you suggesting we put the dreaded panties on his head to get him to talk?

He can still be tried for the mountain of other crimes he is guilty of.

No he can't. That's my problem with the whole thing. As he is dead, there can be no proper trial.

Saddam has been hanged as of 10pm EST. Go to CNN or Fox for the news.

Liar! It's all a vast west wing conspiracy!

What secrets do you really think he'd be giving up?
We'll never know now, will we.

Are you suggesting we put the dreaded panties on his head to get him to talk?
I'm not suggesting anything. But he surely won't write a book in 10-20 years detailing his life as the Butcher of Baghdad...

Mininina in all likelihood he would have given up the details of his weapons given to him from the US, especially those used in the deaths of over a million in the Iran-Iraq War. And in particular the details of certain US chemical firms in relation to where Saddam got his chemical weapons that were used for the genocide against the Kurds and against Iranian soldiers. It would have also exposed the close relationship of the US and Iraq in those times, and that the US gave these terrible weapons to Saddam's regime to fight the perceived threat from the growing radical islamism coming from Iran.

He wasnt "murdered" as so many squeak in here- he was ferreted out and exterminated like the vermin he was.
I love how conservatives are never able to rationalise their brutality; they always need to resort to emotive rants in order to dehumanise their enemies. Unfortunately such 'arguments' work on some people.

Mininina in all likelihood he would have given up the details of his weapons given to him from the US, especially those used in the deaths of over a million in the Iran-Iraq War.

Nothing secretive about that. US didn't like Iran; Iraq didn't like Iran so the US armed Iraq. It's a very old practice and used by many other nations....

And in particular the details of certain US chemical firms in relation to where Saddam got his chemical weapons that were used for the genocide against the Kurds and against Iranian soldiers.

Don't think the US was the only supplier of gas agents.....

It would have also exposed the close relationship of the US and Iraq in those times, and that the US gave these terrible weapons to Saddam's regime to fight the perceived threat from the growing radical islamism coming from Iran.

There is no radical Islam in Iran? Guess that death Fatwa against Rushdie was just a joke eh?

I love how conservatives are never able to rationalise their brutality; they always need to resort to emotive rants in order to dehumanise their enemies. Unfortunately such 'arguments' work on some people.
Just console yourself with the fact that you’re a better person than they are.

Just console yourself with the fact that you’re a better person than they are.

And then have a good ol' chuckle at their expense:

http://www.workingforchange.com/webgraphics/WFC/TMW010307.jpg

He can still be tried for the mountain of other crimes he is guilty of.

We just dont have to feed,dress or keep the scumbag secure anymore.


Ahh but to the power hungry. Being locked in a cage for the rest of your days is probably worst.


Now we can finish up with the ever stylish "Chemical Ali" and the other low-lives.


Yup. Don't even waste money on a trial right?


He wasnt "murdered" as so many squeak in here- he was ferreted out and exterminated like the vermin he was.

An execution without a proper trial is murder.

An execution without a proper trial is murder ...

Killing someone other than in self defence is always murder.

Killing someone other than in self defence is always murder.
Agreed on principle.
And then have a good ol' chuckle at their expense:[/IMG]
:p

He can still be tried for the mountain of other crimes he is guilty of.

Being dead means you can't be prosecuted anymore. Like for say, being a recipient for US chemical weapons. Long story short, the US admin wanted Saddam out of the picture quick before he could bring to light all the dirty dealings he had with them. How would that have looked on the International Media?

"Saddam found guilty of gassing Kurds! US government provided chemical weapons used!"

No matter what some idiotic conservatives think, that kind of stink would be a serious diplomatic blow. It doesn't matter if everyone and their cousin knows the US was doing it. But if it was proven in a court, that would be it. There would be enough grounds to put the US administration on a spike.

And they can't have that now can they?

A sudden death in prison would have been too suspicious so they went with a mockery of a trial to claim some 'legitimacy'

Killing someone other than in self defence is always murder.

And that justifies it?

And that justifies it?

What justifies what?

Self defence is where someone is actively trying to kill you,
you don't have time to appeal for help, you don't have any other choice
and you kill them to stop them.

If that was the question then yes that justifies it.
Although good people would still find they had been changed by doing it.

What justifies what?

Self defence is where someone is actively trying to kill you,
you don't have time to appeal for help, you don't have any other choice
and you kill them to stop them.

If that was the question then yes that justifies it.
Although good people would still find they had been changed by doing it.

Sadaam did indeed murder those people.

However, he deserved a proper trial just like any other person.

He did not get that.

It was a sectarian killing.