NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm not trying to be argumentative in anyway. But would someone who is less ignorant than I please explain to me why it was a great thing that Jesus "died for our sins"? How does that work? Woudn't it make more sense to escape and keep doing all those things he does?

Please enlighten me.

Well, if you believe that forgiveness of sins is necessary to get in to heaven and avoid punishment in hell, it's pretty important.

However, look at it this was: he was willing to sacrifice himself and die horribly out of compassion for his fellow men. Jesus reflects a kind of altruism, forgiveness, and loving kindness that we should all aspire to regardless of whether or not we consider him divine.

You're demanding something that makes sense from a religion?

Yeah, good luck with that...

I'm not trying to be argumentative in anyway. But would someone who is less ignorant than I please explain to me why it was a great thing that Jesus "died for our sins"? How does that work? Woudn't it make more sense to escape and keep doing all those things he does?

Please enlighten me.
Short answer--he didn't sacrifice himself. That was the spin later religious leaders who were hoping to exploit his legacy put on it.

by dying jesus conquered death and we no longer need to fear it.

by dying jesus conquered death and we no longer need to fear it.

OK, why did God, the Alpha and the Omega, Creator of the Universe need to conquer death?

For that matter, why does he need to torture and kill his son to forgive us? I am fully capable of forgiving my wife when she makes a mistake; I don't need to shoot the cat to make my point.:sniper:

I don't need to shoot the cat to make my point.:sniper:

Wimp.

My guess was the pressures of cult leadership were finally getting to him when his diciples stared asking him to show them the god. And, so he took the old world way out.

by dying jesus conquered death and we no longer need to fear it.

So all those people before jesus were screwed basically.

OK, why did God, the Alpha and the Omega, Creator of the Universe need to conquer death?

For that matter, why does he need to torture and kill his son to forgive us? I am fully capable of forgiving my wife when she makes a mistake; I don't need to shoot the cat to make my point.:sniper:

because jesus represents a new idea of our existence in the universe and our relationship with the creator. we are no longer his dogs to be whipped whenever we bark too loudly. we are his children and death is the passage we take to our spiritual existence.

I'm not trying to be argumentative in anyway. But would someone who is less ignorant than I please explain to me why it was a great thing that Jesus "died for our sins"? How does that work? Woudn't it make more sense to escape and keep doing all those things he does?

Please enlighten me.

"Dying/Risen Gods" are a common thing in history. The Jesus story borrows heavily from older stories from the Egyptian and Summerian mythos. The timing of his resurrection shows that it was an adopted story to win converts. Spring is the time when these gods die and are reborn, along with the world. Hell, even the word "Easter" is a corruption of the Anglo-Saxon goddess <i>Eostre</i>. Early Christian stole from many local cults, notably the mystery cult of Mithras, to make their faith stronger.

So all those people before jesus were screwed basically.

for all we know everyone who died before jesus were redeemed by his sacrifice.

god isnt bound by time after all.

because jesus represents a new idea of our existence in the universe and our relationship with the creator. we are no longer his dogs to be whipped whenever we bark to loudly. we are his children and death is the passage we take to our spiritual existence.

Nice, but completely unsupported by the Bible. Jesus in fact condemns most people to Hell, Revelation makes it clear that only 144,000 virginal male Jews will be saved, and at no time does Jesus revoke the bloody laws of the OT.

Wimp.

Well, that trick only works once! Perhaps if I just slapped the cat around a little...

Nice, but completely unsupported by the Bible. Jesus in fact condemns most people to Hell, Revelation makes it clear that only 144,000 virginal male Jews will be saved, and at no time does Jesus revoke the bloody laws of the OT.

revelation is about the fall of rome. it has no relevance to the future.

no jesus doesnt but christianity does.

Well, if you believe that forgiveness of sins is necessary to get in to heaven and avoid punishment in hell, it's pretty important.

However, look at it this was: he was willing to sacrifice himself and die horribly out of compassion for his fellow men. Jesus reflects a kind of altruism, forgiveness, and loving kindness that we should all aspire to regardless of whether or not we consider him divine.

But then you look at his father ... which is the one that demanded a sacrifice ... Jesus was the better character

He didn't have much of a say in the matter.

Actually, it wasn't much of a sacrifice since he knew he'd be okay, better than okay in fact. He just had to endure some pain, which by no measure was greater than what a lot of people went through in those days, spend a few hours in a cross (instead of several days like most crucified did) and that's it.

for all we know everyone who died before jesus were redeemed by his sacrifice.

god isn't bound by time after all.

So they were pulled out before entering hell? if so why was the jesus thing necessary as it is clearly demonstrated that god had the power to forgive without sacrifice

Or did the suffer till Jesus died then were pulled out ... if so how does he justify leaving people to rot in hell for thousands of years before changing the rules

He didn't have much of a say in the matter.

Actually, it wasn't much of a sacrifice since he knew he'd be okay, better than okay in fact. He just had to endure some pain, which by no measure was greater than what a lot of people went through in those days, spend a few hours in a cross (instead of several days like most crucified did) and that's it.

I happen to agree ... He had a tone of pain (which millions of humans experience) and A few days of nothing then he got it all back including his body ...

I happen to agree ... He had a tone of pain (which millions of humans experience) and A few days of nothing then he got it all back including his body ...

Actually, I think he went to hell for a few days or something. (I want to say to laugh at the damned people, but that's probably wrong. I never paid much attention when it was explained to me the first time).

So they were pulled out before entering hell? if so why was the jesus thing necessary as it is clearly demonstrated that god had the power to forgive without sacrifice

Or did the suffer till Jesus died then were pulled out ... if so how does he justify leaving people to rot in hell for thousands of years before changing the rules

i have no idea.

there was a mystic nun in the middle ages--i always think it was st claire but i guess it was really someone else--who prayed for 3 boons from god. first, that she be stricken with an illness that almost killed her but she would survive, second that she suffer as those who had to watch jesus be crucified suffered, and third that she suffer as those who are in hell suffer. they were very much into suffering in the middle ages.

anyway

her prayer was answered. she almost died of an illness, she received a vision in which she participated in the suffering at the foot of the cross, BUT when it came to the suffering in hell, she found that there were NO people suffering in hell. it was empty.

in god all things are possible.

Bah. All mythology, all of it.

I'm just disappointed the Shroud of Turin is several centuries too young to actually have Jesus's blood on it. I was looking forward to cloned messiahs.

Well, if you believe that forgiveness of sins is necessary to get in to heaven and avoid punishment in hell, it's pretty important.

However, look at it this was: he was willing to sacrifice himself and die horribly out of compassion for his fellow men. Jesus reflects a kind of altruism, forgiveness, and loving kindness that we should all aspire to regardless of whether or not we consider him divine.

This is exactly what confuses me. How does dying horribly make you compassonate / forgive others of their sins?

I think he just needed some kind of rockstar exit to make his point more powerful.

Actually, I think he went to hell for a few days or something. (I want to say to laugh at the damned people, but that's probably wrong. I never paid much attention when it was explained to me the first time).

Depends ... it seems to be a belief that has itself rooted in a very contested section of translated

(happens to stem from the same places as purgatory)

I'm not trying to be argumentative in anyway. But would someone who is less ignorant than I please explain to me why it was a great thing that Jesus "died for our sins"? How does that work? Woudn't it make more sense to escape and keep doing all those things he does?

Please enlighten me.

Well, let's face it. Imagine: you're an immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving divine entity. But there's a problem: you created a world full of people who sin, and you're not down with that. With, of course, all the resources of the entire universe, including all time and all space at your disposal, there is really only one possible solution: be born into a mortal body and have someone nail you to a cross.

Simple!

But then you look at his father ... which is the one that demanded a sacrifice ... Jesus was the better character

That's what the Gnostics believed...OT God was evil while Jesus was good.

Depends ... it seems to be a belief that has itself rooted in a very contested section of translated

(happens to stem from the same places as purgatory)

I knew something was up with purgatory. Seemed like too much of a good deal. Same with "limbo." Unfortunately the Holy See seems to have ditched those metaphysical loopholes :(

My personal theory is that he was taken advantage of by a cult. He should have known when they were passing out the black Nikes.

My personal theory is that he was taken advantage of by a cult. He should have known when they were passing out the black Nikes.

Crucifixion = Old School Kool-Aid?

Crucifixion = Old School Kool-Aid?

OH YEAH!

This is exactly what confuses me. How does dying horribly make you compassonate / forgive others of their sins?

Willing to suffer, even to the point of death, for the well-being and hope of your fellow man is pretty compassionate by any interpretation of his divinity.

And the forgiveness of sin is rooted in Judaism, in which sin was forgiven by an offering to God, usually a blood sacrifice; by doing this, Jesus was the sacrificial lamb for all mankind. He took it upon himself to die for the sins of mankind.

I think he just needed some kind of rockstar exit to make his point more powerful.

I think that was part of it; if he dies for us, then we must make our own sacrifices to forgive our sins and inherit the kingdom of God.

I knew something was up with purgatory. Seemed like too much of a good deal. Same with "limbo." Unfortunately the Holy See seems to have ditched those metaphysical loopholes :(

Yeah it all depends if (translated correctly) "Sheol/Hades" means just a generic place of the dead (purgatory) Revilations 20:11-15 defines a difference between them and the actual lake of fire that is hell (or supposedly is)

The actual suffering place apparently is a future tense thing ... they go into a "Holding cell" (Sheol/Hades) until final judgment

OH YEAH!

I so saw that coming.

Yeah it all depends if (translated correctly) "Sheol/Hades" means just a generic place of the dead (purgatory) Revilations 20:11-15 defines a difference between them and the actual lake of fire that is hell (or supposedly is)

IIRC, in Judaism there are only three main options after death; almost everyone goes to Sheol, while the truly evil are obliterated by God and no longer exist, while the truly good go to the "Bosom of Abraham" (or Paradise).

The actual suffering place apparently is a future tense thing ... they go into a "Holding cell" (Sheol/Hades) until final judgment

Yes. Sheol is best compared to a kind of purgatory; it's not suffering, but it is a place where our spirits lead a faint existence, awaiting the final judgement. It's not oblivion or soul-sleep, but isn't particularly pleasant either. The whole point it to contain the dead until it is time for judgement.

Yeah it all depends if (translated correctly) "Sheol/Hades" means just a generic place of the dead (purgatory) Revilations 20:11-15 defines a difference between them and the actual lake of fire that is hell (or supposedly is)

The actual suffering place apparently is a future tense thing ... they go into a "Holding cell" (Sheol/Hades) until final judgment

Ugh. I can't believe that little kids get threatened with this type of thing. (Well I can believe it, but it still seems wrong).

Anyway, if you can go to hell for not believing in god, why does he make it so easy not to believe in him? He could reveal himself to everyone, everyday. He could do this and people would still have free will.

Doesn't seem right to me at all.

I so saw that coming.


It's like you have [WARNING BAD JOKE] ESPN or something

:p :mp5:

Ugh. I can't believe that little kids get threatened with this type of thing. (Well I can believe it, but it still seems wrong).

Anyway, if you can go to hell for not believing in god, why does he make it so easy not to believe in him? He could reveal himself to everyone, everyday. He could do this and people would still have free will.

Doesn't seem right to me at all.

Agreed he could

In fact he had no problem killing thouands if not millions (even innocents like children) that did not obey him ... seems to me that is worse then talking to somebody

Ugh. I can't believe that little kids get threatened with this type of thing. (Well I can believe it, but it still seems wrong).

Eh, that's not too bad. It's way different than the concept of eternal punishment for temporal sin which exists in other religions.

Anyway, if you can go to hell for not believing in god, why does he make it so easy not to believe in him? He could reveal himself to everyone, everyday. He could do this and people would still have free will.

I think because mankind is meant to be free; it's both the greatest gift and curse of our existence on Earth. If God revealed himself, faith would be unnecessary and consequently belief in God would also be.

IIRC, in Judaism there are only three main options after death; almost everyone goes to Sheol, while the truly evil are obliterated by God and no longer exist, while the truly good go to the "Bosom of Abraham" (or Paradise).



Yes. Sheol is best compared to a kind of purgatory; it's not suffering, but it is a place where our spirits lead a faint existence, awaiting the final judgement. It's not oblivion or soul-sleep, but isn't particularly pleasant either. The whole point it to contain the dead until it is time for judgement.

Thats how I understood it as well...

So what was there before jesus? Were al those people pretty much fucked or what?

So what was there before jesus? Were al those people pretty much fucked or what?

Twas a lot harder and more complicated for sure ...

It's like you have [WARNING BAD JOKE] ESPN or something

:p :mp5:

Maybe that's why I expected someone with less than 50 posts to use a gun smiley.

Ugh. I can't believe that little kids get threatened with this type of thing. (Well I can believe it, but it still seems wrong).

Anyway, if you can go to hell for not believing in god, why does he make it so easy not to believe in him? He could reveal himself to everyone, everyday. He could do this and people would still have free will.

Doesn't seem right to me at all.


1. In society there has to be a coercive moral force to enforce otherwise counterintuitive social norms and practices upon the young. If this means Hell and Purgatory, fine. If it means Time Out and a good thrashing, also fine. The arguments here are plentiful and well-worn.

2. Not true. See the Hitchhiker's Guide: And then God did say to Man, "I will not prove myself for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
For all that it comes from a rather odd book, it's true. Without human beings choosing to believe the deity has no purpose. If God or Yaweh or whatever proved it's existance, it would be just another part of the natural world, and be treated as such in human culture, without any of the mystical and supernatural connotations.

Asking people to worship a proven god would be like asking everyone to worship a REALLY big rock on the grounds that it had the power to whenever it wanted roll over everyone and squish them. Just not working.

Thats how I understood it as well...

It's not bad, but it's not good either.

1. In society there has to be a coercive moral force to enforce otherwise counterintuitive social norms and practices upon the young. If this means Hell and Purgatory, fine. If it means Time Out and a good thrashing, also fine. The arguments here are plentiful and well-worn.

2. Not true. See the Hitchhiker's Guide: And then God did say to Man, "I will not prove myself for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
For all that it comes from a rather odd book, it's true. Without human beings choosing to believe the deity has no purpose. If God or Yaweh or whatever proved it's existance, it would be just another part of the natural world, and be treated as such in human culture, without any of the mystical and supernatural connotations.

Asking people to worship a proven god would be like asking everyone to worship a REALLY big rock on the grounds that it had the power to whenever it wanted roll over everyone and squish them. Just not working.

Yet that god apparently had no problems killing people that disobeyed him ... and reveling himself to a bunch of people come to think of it.

I think because mankind is meant to be free; it's both the greatest gift and curse of our existence on Earth. If God revealed himself, faith would be unnecessary and consequently belief in God would also be.

I don't see how god revealing himself openly would take away free will. You would still, of course, be free to disobey. Like the garden of eden I suppose.

And if anything, it would strengthen belief; which is what he seems so keen on anway. Why punish people for failing to believe when you also deliberately hide the very proof which would be trivial to provide?

Plus, just think of the advantages. God is pretty keen on obedience also. Now look at all the schisms and squabbles about what obedience to god actually entails. Because of all the mystery it is impossible for people to know what god actually wants with any degree of certainty (although in many cases the punishments for not getting it right seem fairly severe). If god was truly revealed to all of us personally, this would become a non problem. We could just ask.

Just saying that god thinks we need to have faith doesn't really address these objections.

Short answer--he didn't sacrifice himself. That was the spin later religious leaders who were hoping to exploit his legacy put on it.

true!

lets put a new spin on it... God loved his 'son' so much that He would not humiliate him in that way and let that message be carried on for centuries. Instead, He protects his 'son' and takes Jesus to the safest place he can - Heaven. When Jesus comes back to Earth he'll be coming from heaven won't he? And maybe replacing "Jesus" on the cross with a look-a-like!

Voila!

http://geek.upwardthrust.us/pictures/whereyourgod.gif

I so saw that coming.

I know. Yet, it had to be done.

Idiot.

Nothing more, nothing less. Now, you could take the Bibles view on it, but its a little biased:p

I'm not trying to be argumentative in anyway. But would someone who is less ignorant than I please explain to me why it was a great thing that Jesus "died for our sins"?He knew he'd be back within three days, so really, how much of a sacrifice was it in the first place?
People getting tortured for days or weeks for what they believe in sacrifice a lot more.

no idea what so ever! But then again if he had jumped off a building saying Jesus loves goths that wouldn'y had suprised me. He was a strange sort of guy.:D

I get that God doesn't reveal himself because he wants us to have faith; faith being belief without evidence, providing evidence would certainly make that difficult. What trips me up is why there's any merit in having faith. I mean, in any other context (except perhaps a marriage), isn't believing something without any evidence to support it just called idiocy? Even hallucinations are more rational, because at least you're getting sensory evidence about them, albeit evidence that's made up by your own mind, rather than real information about the environment. Since the only reliable way of judging what is true and what isn't is on the basis of the facts, does this mean God wants us to remain ignorant? And on what grounds are we meant to decide that Christianity (or any religion) is the true religion, if we're not allowed to discriminate between information about religions based on experience or evidence, but are just supposed to have faith? Also, doesn't the Bible itself instruct its readers to question its words?

And yes, while God revealing himself to us would be somewhat like worshipping a big rock, I for one would be happy to worship a big omnipotent rock (the worshipping being more directed to fact that it was omnipotent, and less to the fact that I did or didn't know it existed).

He didn't want to disappoint the Masses.
snicker, snicker snicker. Yep, I'm going to hell for that one for sure!

He didn't want to disappoint the Masses.
snicker, snicker snicker. Yep, I'm going to hell for that one for sure!

He could have just turned water into wine again. Certainly a crowd pleaser. "Aw, Jesus. We're awful glad you didn't off yerself. Are you using that grail?"

He basically got screwed over. And demonstrated very nicely that a belief in a higher power can make you do some stupid things. The whole dying and rising again was all meant to appeal to the northerners and maximise conversions.

If God revealed himself, faith would be unnecessary and consequently belief in God would also be.

So what kind of deity demands that people worship him and have faith in him despite contradictory and confusing information about him? Why does he need (and demand) to be worshipped under these circumstances? If he needs worship, why not make it clear he exists and is the only god?

It seems strange that a god who creates the Grand Canyon, Mount Everest, planets like Jupiter, and for that matter the incredible universe we discover through the Hubble almost daily needs the inhabitants of a backwater planet in one wing of a non-descript galaxy to acknowledge his greatness. Doesn't he know he's great and all-powerful? Why does he need us to keep telling him this?

I'm not trying to be argumentative in anyway. But would someone who is less ignorant than I please explain to me why it was a great thing that Jesus "died for our sins"? How does that work? Woudn't it make more sense to escape and keep doing all those things he does?

Please enlighten me.

I thought he sacrificed himself cause the Romans killed him...

I'm not trying to be argumentative in anyway. But would someone who is less ignorant than I please explain to me why it was a great thing that Jesus "died for our sins"? How does that work? Woudn't it make more sense to escape and keep doing all those things he does?

Please enlighten me.We're all sinners. Nobody has ever lived on earth, bar Jesus, without committing at least one sin. God is absolutely perfect (yes, I am aware that you'll argue "but what about all those people he killed in Genesis, etc." but that isn't the issue in question here). God is so perfect that he can't even look sin in the face. He can't bear it. I mean, he already has it tough enough what with his created people generally not believing in him and going against him. He just can't take sin like that in heaven. So what did he do? He elected to send his Son; i.e. himself (I can't split into separate entities as much as the next person, and it's hard to get my mind around, but God's mind is much vaster than ours will ever be) down to this sin-riddled, tough world. He didn't have to do it; he was in heaven, he could've just let the world carry on as it is, but he didn't.

Jesus wasn't literally God's mind in a human body. He was a person. It's not like as a baby he had the capable mind of an adult (now that would freak a mother out) he grew up like the rest of us. He became aware, through prayer and studying his religious texts (i.e. Old Testament) of his fate. Now Jesus had never sinned. If he carried on as he was then he was sure to go to heaven, without ever going to hell. But he felt for the people of earth. You see, God, being divine, hadn't experienced first hand what it's like to be human. We could argue that 'you don't understand me' all we liked. But when Jesus came he was touched by human suffering. Jesus was aware that he had to die. He didn't have to do it; God didn't force him to do it; it's not as if his fate was a surprise and that he couldn't back out. Jesus didn't like suffering as much as the next person. He prayed to God that he would stop him from being crucified; but only if God allowed it.
Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
Jesus was later beaten, mocked and nailed to a cross. He lived a perfect life; he didn't need to die on the cross to save himself. But that's the true compassion displayed there. The act was completely selfless. Crucifixion sounds like an awful means of death; we have no idea how much more pain Jesus might've been subjected to by bearing the world's present and future sins. Suffice to say that we're told that he died first of the 3 that were crucified. Jesus went to hell for 3 days. Hell is worse than the most horrible torture you can think of. Three days can probably seem like an eternity. But Jesus did that for the world. For people who hated him, many of whom hadn't even been born yet, for people who rejected him, to give everyone a chance of redemption, if they choose it. People have died for other people before, but not for masses who despise them. Jesus' sacrifice was a once for all deal. Very simple; you just have to admit that you've sinned, believe that he died for those sins, earnestly ask forgiveness, and your slate will be wiped clean. Doesn't that seem so much easier than what he had to go through?

So all those people before jesus were screwed basically. So what was there before jesus? Were al those people pretty much fucked or what?Before Jesus you had to be a strict, law-abiding Jew (very difficult; there were so many laws to follow). If you sinned you had to make blood offerings at the local temple (i.e. in public) of perfect animals; preferably lambs. Jesus’ crucifixion was like the sacrfifice of a spotless lamb, only greater, because he was human, and it was done willingly.

I don't see how god revealing himself openly would take away free will. You would still, of course, be free to disobey. Like the garden of eden I suppose.

And if anything, it would strengthen belief; which is what he seems so keen on anway. Why punish people for failing to believe when you also deliberately hide the very proof which would be trivial to provide?

Plus, just think of the advantages. God is pretty keen on obedience also. Now look at all the schisms and squabbles about what obedience to god actually entails. Because of all the mystery it is impossible for people to know what god actually wants with any degree of certainty (although in many cases the punishments for not getting it right seem fairly severe). If god was truly revealed to all of us personally, this would become a non problem. We could just ask.

Just saying that god thinks we need to have faith doesn't really address these objections.Why should God have to prove anything to you, a mere mortal? Wouldn’t it be so much nicer for him, if we thanked him for his amazing creation; us, the world, the universe? Shouldn’t we be in awe of that? Well, technically we should; if we all believed, that is. But we don’t. You’re right in saying that we would have the right to reject him. But, honestly, even if God did reveal himself in the most spectacular way imaginable many still wouldn’t believe him. And wouldn’t it seem rather desperate if he did? In the Old Testament God performed miracles many times; often the people didn’t believe it. Why should we be any less sceptical now? What’s the point? I believe that God provides for me. Many strange coincidences happen to me. I could take them as being strange coincidences; that’s the ‘logical’ way of seeing it. Or I could think that things were meant to happen. Call it idiotic if you like; but that’s what I believe.

He knew he'd be back within three days, so really, how much of a sacrifice was it in the first place?
People getting tortured for days or weeks for what they believe in sacrifice a lot more.Like I said earlier, if you could choose between being crucified on a cross in your early thirties, dying, and going to hell for a few days then going to heaven, or continuing living until you die by another means and then going to heaven, I’m sure that we’d all choose the latter.

So what kind of deity demands that people worship him and have faith in him despite contradictory and confusing information about him? Why does he need (and demand) to be worshipped under these circumstances? If he needs worship, why not make it clear he exists and is the only god?

It seems strange that a god who creates the Grand Canyon, Mount Everest, planets like Jupiter, and for that matter the incredible universe we discover through the Hubble almost daily needs the inhabitants of a backwater planet in one wing of a non-descript galaxy to acknowledge his greatness. Doesn't he know he's great and all-powerful? Why does he need us to keep telling him this?Well as for confusing information, I mean, we’re all confused about something. Most people will admit that there must be some greater intelligence out there. I mean, there are always smarter people than you in some area or other. As for contradictory information; give me examples; it annoys me when people generalise about contradictory information, when they never actually read up about these contradictions themselves.

*snip*You seem to know the Christian god and Yeshua pretty well? Who gave you all that information? Did you run an interview series with both? Or do you just believe in the Bible, i.e. in ideologically whipped up subjective history?

Like I said earlier, if you could choose between being crucified on a cross in your early thirties, dying, and going to hell for a few days then going to heaven, or continuing living until you die by another means and then going to heaven, I’m sure that we’d all choose the latter.Sacrifice implies choice and (expected) loss. Even if one might concede the first, despite his path being predestined. He knew he would be back, nothing lost, and if anything, everything gained.
If I knew for certain I could go to heaven after a few days of hell, spike me to a tree. Beats the uncertainty of whether I'll go to heaven or hell for eternity after a full life. But such certainties aren't given to mortal men.
Sacrifice would have been going to hell with a full expectation of staying there for eternity for the sins of men; hoping to redeem them thusly. If by the grace of god he was saved from that, outside his knowledge and expectation, that'd be fine. But that's not the case according to the bible. (Given the chance it's one of the things I'd rewrite).

Well, if you believe that forgiveness of sins is necessary to get in to heaven and avoid punishment in hell, it's pretty important.

However, look at it this was: he was willing to sacrifice himself and die horribly out of compassion for his fellow men. Jesus reflects a kind of altruism, forgiveness, and loving kindness that we should all aspire to regardless of whether or not we consider him divine.

Jesus....Bobby Sands with a sun tan.

You seem to know the Christian god and Yeshua pretty well? Who gave you all that information? Did you run an interview series with both? Or do you just believe in the Bible, i.e. in ideologically whipped up subjective history?Who gave me all that information? Um, the Bible? I'm trying to explain things in relatively simplistic terms, and from a human perspective. But if you'd rather just have Bible passages then look up Bible Gateway or some other online Bible and read the 4 gospels. And, yes, I do know Jesus in a sense. Not as much as like to, but I can talk to him any time I like. It sounds crazy and ridiculous, I know, and I expect that you'll laugh at it, but I really solemnly believe it. I know that he hears. I don't have conversations with God, because prayer is basically talking aloud/in your head with no response in terms of a voice answering back, and a conversation usually implies more than one person, but I do honestly believe that God hears me. (Queue eye rolls and calling the men in the white coats...).

Sacrifice implies choice and (expected) loss. Even if one might concede the first, despite his path being predestined. He knew he would be back, nothing lost, and if anything, everything gained.
If I knew for certain I could go to heaven after a few days of hell, spike me to a tree. Beats the uncertainty of whether I'll go to heaven or hell for eternity after a full life. But such certainties aren't given to mortal men.
Sacrifice would have been going to hell with a full expectation of staying there for eternity for the sins of men; hoping to redeem them thusly. If by the grace of god he was saved from that, outside his knowledge and expectation, that'd be fine. But that's not the case according to the bible. (Given the chance it's one of the things I'd rewrite). Honestly, if I knew that Jesus was still in Hell I'd be pretty upset. I mean, he did absolutely nothing to deserve it. And I'm fairly certain that Jesus didn't know what Hell was going to be like as much as the next person. He knew that he would rise again from the Prophesies in the Old Testament, but he was essentially a mortal man, and he couldn't see into the future. He didn't know what it was going to be like. And from my perspective, Free Will and Predestination are very problematic. Because many will argue that, well, maybe I'm doomed when I'm born, so what's the point? I can't fathom it, because I don't know what it's like to see into the future. And you make a very valid point that it's one of the things that you would rewrite and honestly, it's something that bothers me as well. It's something that, while I'm on this earth, I don't think that I will be able to fully understand. And I'm okay with that, but it does make faith a little trickier.

Who gave me all that information? Um, the Bible? I'm trying to explain things in relatively simplistic terms, and from a human perspective. But if you'd rather just have Bible passages then look up Bible Gateway or some other online Bible and read the 4 gospels. And, yes, I do know Jesus in a sense. Not as much as like to, but I can talk to him any time I like. It sounds crazy and ridiculous, I know, and I expect that you'll laugh at it, but I really solemnly believe it. I know that he hears. I don't have conversations with God, because prayer is basically talking aloud/in your head with no response in terms of a voice answering back, and a conversation usually implies more than one person, but I do honestly believe that God hears me. (Queue eye rolls and calling the men in the white coats...).So what's your belief based on? You say the Bible, although you know that the way it was assembled justifies every doubt about its accuracy?

Honestly, if I knew that Jesus was still in Hell I'd be pretty upset. I mean, he did absolutely nothing to deserve it.I'd also find it sad, but also much more inspirational.

And I'm fairly certain that Jesus didn't know what Hell was going to be like as much as the next person. He knew that he would rise again from the Prophesies in the Old Testament, but he was essentially a mortal man, and he couldn't see into the future. He didn't know what it was going to be like.I'm not as certain about that; and I suppose that makes up a large part of the difference of how we look at it. The bible and church often seem to emphasize the divine aspect, whereas the human aspect is much more important imo. I mean, something that is by nature good, cannot make wrong choices. And therefore it doesn't mean anything when it chooses good; it can't not.
Probably, I'd rather just have Jesus be the carpenter's son, rather than God's only-begotten. (It makes more sense to me to see all of us as sons and daughters of god, rather than to give any a favored status)

As for his time in hell, the bible is quite vague on the subject; it doesn't even really say he went to hell. He conquered death, in some sense; whether it encompassed any of the tortures of hell as some people seem fit to reserve for our souls is left unmentioned.
(If God is in anyway mercifull, there isn't a hell in the first place; not outside our image of it.)

Because he was the last Horcrux.

Because he was the last Horcrux.

*applause*

YAY!!

... if so how does he justify leaving people to rot in hell for thousands of years before changing the rules

Um, God doesn't have to justify anything to anyone -- not even to the really really smart people. He's God.

I've noticed a lot of people in this discussion making this point. Your underlying assumption seems to be that it can't be true because you wouldn't have done it that way if you were God? :p Heehee. You seem to be saying, "God is only a wee bit more clever than me, and if I had been God, I could have done it much more efficiently and cost-effective. Therefore God is a fraud! Or at least a lousy businessman."

If God is God, chances are He has a slightly better view of the big picture than we do, despite all our college degrees. So, for the sake of argument, let's try to remember that we are not God. I'm not God. You aren't God, even if you are almost as clever.

*applause*

YAY!!

:p I feel ashamed.

Um, God doesn't have to justify anything to anyone -- not even to the really really smart people. He's God.

I've noticed a lot of people in this discussion making this point. Your underlying assumption seems to be that it can't be true because you wouldn't have done it that way if you were God? :p Heehee. You seem to be saying, "God is only a wee bit more clever than me, and if I had been God, I could have done it much more efficiently and cost-effective. Therefore God is a fraud! Or at least a lousy businessman."

If God is God, chances are He has a slightly better view of the big picture than we do, despite all our college degrees. So, for the sake of argument, let's try to remember that we are not God. I'm not God. You aren't God, even if you are almost as clever.Of course "god" has to justify anything he does to humans to humans. Humans are free and not anyone's property. If he kills humans, he better have a good reason, and lack of belief is definitely none.

(If God is in anyway mercifull, there isn't a hell in the first place; not outside our image of it.)

Why can't God still show mercy if there is a hell? He gives us plenty of opportunity not to go to it.

That's like a young child being warned by a parent not to touch a hot stove, but touching it anyway, and then complaining, "If you were any kind of parent, there wouldn't BE a hot stove!" (I admit, not a perfect analogy, but you get the idea)

Also, refer to my "We're not as smart as God" post above.

Of course "god" has to justify anything he does to humans to humans. Humans are free and not anyone's property. If he kills humans, he better have a good reason, and lack of belief is definitely none.

You have probably stepped on a cockroach or two. Did you justify it to them? (to quote the Mothman Prophecies :) )

Um, God doesn't have to justify anything to anyone -- not even to the really really smart people. He's God.

I've noticed a lot of people in this discussion making this point. Your underlying assumption seems to be that it can't be true because you wouldn't have done it that way if you were God? :p Heehee. You seem to be saying, "God is only a wee bit more clever than me, and if I had been God, I could have done it much more efficiently and cost-effective. Therefore God is a fraud! Or at least a lousy businessman."

If God is God, chances are He has a slightly better view of the big picture than we do, despite all our college degrees. So, for the sake of argument, let's try to remember that we are not God. I'm not God. You aren't God, even if you are almost as clever.
Which is fine if you make the assumption that the biblically described deity is actually "god"

If the description of god is making him seem like just a wee bit smarter then me then I question the descriptions

Why can't God still show mercy if there is a hell? He gives us plenty of opportunity not to go to it.

That's like a young child being warned by a parent not to touch a hot stove, but touching it anyway, and then complaining, "If you were any kind of parent, there wouldn't BE a hot stove!" (I admit, not a perfect analogy, but you get the idea)


No, it'd be more like if the kid touches the stove then the parent holds the kid's hand against the stove for all eternity.

Nice parent.

Why can't God still show mercy if there is a hell? He gives us plenty of opportunity not to go to it.There cannot be a point to letting people suffer for eternity with no chance of redemption. That is just needless malice. He might as well remove them from existence and leave the suffering aside.
Mercy isn't about giving people a chance not to do something wrong, it's about giving people another chance after they've done something wrong.

That's like a young child being warned by a parent not to touch a hot stove, but touching it anyway, and then complaining, "If you were any kind of parent, there wouldn't BE a hot stove!" (I admit, not a perfect analogy, but you get the idea)A very bad analogy. The good analogy would be binding their hand to the stove once they've touched it and never letting their hand off. And possibly turning the stove up a bit for good measure.
No parent would do that.

Um, God doesn't have to justify anything to anyone -- not even to the really really smart people. He's God.He has to justify it to himself.

So all those people before jesus were screwed basically.

No. The thing about Christianity is that, now, you have to believe without seeing. Before Christ died, we didn't have the New Testiment, so the people before that time saw to believe. That was when Jesus enabled his Disciples to do miracles in his name (i.e. heal the lame, make the blind see, etc.) People who heard of these miracles and saw them had solid evidence that Jesus was real, shoved in their face.
Also before Christ died, he would talk to his Disciples through visions, and things like that so that they could minister to other people.
I hope that clears things up a bit for you.

I'm not trying to be argumentative in anyway. But would someone who is less ignorant than I please explain to me why it was a great thing that Jesus "died for our sins"? How does that work? Woudn't it make more sense to escape and keep doing all those things he does?

Please enlighten me.

"Let me tell you a story—a parable.

There once was a man who wanted something very much. It seemed more important than anything else in his life. In order for him to have his desire, he incurred a great debt.

He had been warned about going into that much debt, and particularly about his creditor. But it seemed so important for him to do what he wanted to do and to have what he wanted right now. He was sure he could pay for it later.

So he signed a contract. He would pay it off some time along the way. He didn’t worry too much about it, for the due date seemed such a long time away. He had what he wanted now, and that was what seemed important.

The creditor was always somewhere in the back of his mind, and he made token payments now and again, thinking somehow that the day of reckoning really would never come.

But as it always does, the day came, and the contract fell due. The debt had not been fully paid. His creditor appeared and demanded payment in full.

Only then did he realize that his creditor not only had the power to repossess all that he owned, but the power to cast him into prison as well.

“I cannot pay you, for I have not the power to do so,” he confessed.

“Then,” said the creditor, “we will exercise the contract, take your possessions, and you shall go to prison. You agreed to that. It was your choice. You signed the contract, and now it must be enforced.”

“Can you not extend the time or forgive the debt?” the debtor begged. “Arrange some way for me to keep what I have and not go to prison. Surely you believe in mercy? Will you not show mercy?”

The creditor replied, “Mercy is always so one-sided. It would serve only you. If I show mercy to you, it will leave me unpaid. It is justice I demand. Do you believe in justice?”

“I believed in justice when I signed the contract,” the debtor said. “It was on my side then, for I thought it would protect me. I did not need mercy then, nor think I should need it ever. Justice, I thought, would serve both of us equally as well.”

“It is justice that demands that you pay the contract or suffer the penalty,” the creditor replied. “That is the law. You have agreed to it and that is the way it must be. Mercy cannot rob justice.”

There they were: One meting out justice, the other pleading for mercy. Neither could prevail except at the expense of the other.

“If you do not forgive the debt there will be no mercy,” the debtor pleaded.

“If I do, there will be no justice,” was the reply.

Both laws, it seemed, could not be served. They are two eternal ideals that appear to contradict one another. Is there no way for justice to be fully served, and mercy also?

There is a way! The law of justice can be fully satisfied and mercy can be fully extended—but it takes someone else. And so it happened this time.

The debtor had a friend. He came to help. He knew the debtor well. He knew him to be shortsighted. He thought him foolish to have gotten himself into such a predicament. Nevertheless, he wanted to help because he loved him. He stepped between them, faced the creditor, and made this offer.

“I will pay the debt if you will free the debtor from his contract so that he may keep his possessions and not go to prison.”

As the creditor was pondering the offer, the mediator added, “You demanded justice. Though he cannot pay you, I will do so. You will have been justly dealt with and can ask no more. It would not be just.”

And so the creditor agreed.

The mediator turned then to the debtor. “If I pay your debt, will you accept me as your creditor?”

“Oh yes, yes,” cried the debtor. “You save me from prison and show mercy to me.”

“Then,” said the benefactor, “you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way. You need not go to prison.”

And so it was that the creditor was paid in full. He had been justly dealt with. No contract had been broken. The debtor, in turn, had been extended mercy. Both laws stood fulfilled. Because there was a mediator, justice had claimed its full share, and mercy was fully satisfied.

Each of us lives on a kind of spiritual credit. One day the account will be closed, a settlement demanded. However casually we may view it now, when that day comes and the foreclosure is imminent, we will look around in restless agony for someone, anyone, to help us.

And, by eternal law, mercy cannot be extended save there be one who is both willing and able to assume our debt and pay the price and arrange the terms for our redemption.

Unless there is a mediator, unless we have a friend, the full weight of justice untempered, unsympathetic, must, positively must fall on us. The full recompense for every transgression, however minor or however deep, will be exacted from us to the uttermost farthing.

But know this: Truth, glorious truth, proclaims there is such a Mediator.

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” (1 Tim. 2:5.)

Through Him mercy can be fully extended to each of us without offending the eternal law of justice." (Elder Boyd K. Packer, "The Mediator (http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1977.htm/ensign%20may%201977.htm/the%20mediator%20.htm)")

I believe the quotation speaks for it's self. If you have any further questions please feel free to ask, I will do my best to answer them.

I believe the quotation speaks for it's self. If you have any further questions please feel free to ask, I will do my best to answer them.

That's a stupid parable. None of us are informed of any debt, terms or contract. If there's any, we enter it without any prior knowledge or acceptance. To then come out of the blue demanding repayment that goes beyond any logic or sense of justice is just aberrant. Changing creditors is no big help, since there still a supposed "debt."

At least Satan informs you properly, puts the terms in writing, and requests your signature before taking your soul.

"Each of us lives on a kind of spiritual credit. One day the account will be closed, a settlement demanded."I can't recall asking, nor signing for it.
Seems rather unjust to give someone something, no terms attached; and later call for payment.

Mercy isn't about giving people a chance not to do something wrong, it's about giving people another chance after they've done something wrong.
Then we're in luck! That just happens to be what Jesus' death is all about. He provided a way out, and it's a free gift. There's your mercy.

A very bad analogy. The good analogy would be binding their hand to the stove once they've touched it and never letting their hand off. And possibly turning the stove up a bit for good measure.
No parent would do that.
No, your analogy is bad as well. Let me re-re-phrase it.
When we sin, that not only drives us away from God, it is an offense against Him. God is Holy and can't allow sin into Heaven, so that means we are condemned to Hell. Hell is not only a really hot and painful place. Hell is eternal seperation from God.
When Jesus died, He was a ransom for us. We can't go to Heaven because we have sin; therefore we must be seperated from God -- in Hell.
But Jesus went for us. All we have to do is accept that gift, and all our sin goes with Jesus to Hell, where it belongs, and we can be with God.

He has to justify it to himself.
Why? Where is that rule? And who made the rules?

I can't recall asking, nor signing for it.
Seems rather unjust to give someone something, no terms attached; and later call for payment.

But God loves you so much that he would disregard whatever you want and force you into a contract you knew nothing about that could possibly fuck up your entire life and afterlife. :D

Practically every one of your arguments can be negated by this statement:

"But you're still not God."

I can't recall asking, nor signing for it.
Seems rather unjust to give someone something, no terms attached; and later call for payment.

Well you know about it now. Better do something about it while you still can.

Practically every one of your arguments can be negated by this statement:

"But you're still not God."

Which can be negated quite easily by "but there is no god."

So what's your belief based on? You say the Bible, although you know that the way it was assembled justifies every doubt about its accuracy?

MY belief is simply based on the fact that I do honestly believe. I'm not uncertain. That's good enough for me. Also I have the examples of many whom I trust before me. You like Tolkien? You should know he was a devout catholic.

Science is, in some places, as much a religion a christianity. It says the world came to be because suddenly, for no apparent reason, an incredible amount of energy focused at one small point and started spitting out matter. I find this much harder to believe than God.

Which can be negated quite easily by "but there is no god."

Which can be negated just as easily by, "so what do you care how He does things?"

MY belief is simply based on the fact that I do honestly believe. I'm not uncertain. That's good enough for me. Also I have the examples of many whom I trust before me. You like Tolkien? You should know he was a devout catholic.

Science is, in some places, as much a religion a christianity. It says the world came to be because suddenly, for no apparent reason, an incredible amount of energy focused at one small point and started spitting out matter. I find this much harder to believe than God.So your answer really is "just because", and your knowledge of science, i.e. the process of finding out and making sure, is pretty limited.
As for Tolkien being Christian: everyone is flawed one way or another.

That's a stupid parable. None of us are informed of any debt, terms or contract. If there's any, we enter it without any prior knowledge or acceptance. To then come out of the blue demanding repayment that goes beyond any logic or sense of justice is just aberrant. Changing creditors is no big help, since there still a supposed "debt."

At least Satan informs you properly, puts the terms in writing, and requests your signature before taking your soul.

Refusing to accept the truth will not make it of no effect.

Before we came to this earth the plan of salvation, our need for a savior, and that that savior would be christ, were agreed to by ourselves. It was a part of God's plan that we should retain no rememberance of the premortal existence, and we also agreed to this stipulation. For faith (or believing in things that are true, without having a sure knowlege of them) was a necessary part of the plan of our Heavenly Father for us. If we choose to have faith, and the things we have faith in are true, then the Spirit gives us a witness in our minds and in our hearts that they they are true.

Satan proposed his own plan, that we would come to earth and be compelled, by him, to do right. He sought to destroy the agency of man, which was also an integral part of God's plan for us. And when his plan was rejected, he rebelled against God, and he and third of our spirit brothers and sisters, who rebelled with him, where cast down. Their punishment is that they will not have this mortal experiance that we are privileged to have, and their revenge is that they seek to manipulate people into rejecting God's plan, here in this life, where we do not have the reassuring presence of God to strengthen our resolves. This opposition is also a part of God's plan, and helps us to develop our own strengths and not to rely wholely on his strength.

For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad... (2 Nephi 2:11 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/2/11#11))

They take advantage of our ignorance of the agreement we made in the prexistence, and they are working on you now, inciting you to anger against the truth.

If you weren't angry, you would feel in your heart, by the spirit, that what I am telling you is true, the same as I do. "For faith commeth not by signs, but by hearing the word of God."

Ancient prophets spoke of our day on this wise:

For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.

And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance. (2 Nephi 28:20,22 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/28/20,22#20))

I want to qualify my reasons for telling you these things. I am not trying to condemn you, and I and not trying to frighten or manipulate you. I know what I am saying is true, and I feel a strong desire to share the truths I know with others. You have the right to choose what you will believe, and what you will do, I am only asking you to consider that what I have told you might be true.

I will close with these words:

And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;

And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.

I have spoken these few words unto you all, my sons, in the last days of my probation; and I have chosen the good part, according to the words of the prophet. And I have none other object save it be the everlasting welfare of your souls. Amen. (2 Nephi 2:28-30 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/2/28-30#28))

But then, who puts any value in the words of a Mormon?

But then, who puts any value in the words of a Mormon?

members of the LDS?

Refusing to accept the truth will not make it of no effect.

Good point. It wouldn't matter if everyone on this forum, this country, or this world agreed that there is or isn't a God, that doesn't affect His existance. 2+2 = 4, even if we all really really REALLY want it to equal 5.

Good point. It wouldn't matter if everyone on this forum, this country, or this world agreed that there is or isn't a God, that doesn't affect His existance. 2+2 = 4, even if we all really really REALLY want it to equal 5.

It only matters that you believe very, very much in God and that makes it true, right sonny jim?

Before we came to this earth the plan of salvation, our need for a savior, and that that savior would be christ, were agreed to by ourselves. It was a part of God's plan that we should retain no rememberance of the premortal existence, and we also agreed to this stipulation.

Then how on earth can YOU (or in fact any man or woman) know this ?

It only matters that you believe very, very much in God and that makes it true, right sonny jim?

Nope.

Nope.

Merry Wives of Saxe-Colburg-Gothe

Good point. It wouldn't matter if everyone on this forum, this country, or this world agreed that there is or isn't a God, that doesn't affect His existance. 2+2 = 4, even if we all really really REALLY want it to equal 5.

The existence of God is not even the issue here. It is about if the whole "born with sin" concept is fair and just or not.

The existence of God is not even the issue here. It is about if the whole "born with sin" concept is fair and just or not.

who said life was supposed to be "fair"?

who said life was supposed to be "fair"?

Life ? No. God ? Yes.
I at least do not wish to worship a cruel and unjust God.

who said life was supposed to be "fair"?

Another way of saying, "But you're still not God."

Life ? No. God ? Yes.
I at least do not wish to worship a cruel and unjust God.

But you're still not God. How do you know what is cruel and what is unjust?

But you're still not God. How do you know what is cruel and what is unjust?

If an entity that people claim to be all loving does something I find morally wrong I question their claims and that unproven entity first ...

But you're still not God. How do you know what is cruel and what is unjust?

We are supposed to behave well and our species supposedly ate from the tree of knowledge. That implies that we can make some assesments.

Now, if I did not ask to be born, punishing me for being born is unfair imo.
If Eudeminea is right however I have agreed to the punishment, and God is fair.

Yes. Sheol is best compared to a kind of purgatory; it's not suffering, but it is a place where our spirits lead a faint existence, awaiting the final judgement. It's not oblivion or soul-sleep, but isn't particularly pleasant either. The whole point it to contain the dead until it is time for judgement.

You'll be put into a jar?

Delusions of Grandeur.

If an entity that people claim to be all loving does something I find morally wrong I question their claims and that unproven entity first ...

But who defines what is morally right and wrong? Are morals even relevant to God?

Life ? No. God ? Yes.
I at least do not wish to worship a cruel and unjust God.

I have faith that God is just.

But who defines what is morally right and wrong? Are morals even relevant to God?

They may be or may not be but lacking evidence to change what I know as right and wrong the morals stay where they are.

So far religion has failed to show me solid enough reasons.

Would you do something you know was wrong or worship something you thought was wrong just because that apparently wrong thing tells you to?

I have faith that God is just.

And I wish to understand Him ;)

But you're still not God. How do you know what is cruel and what is unjust?

So now we don't know the difference between right and wrong? But god expects us to - for he hasn't given us his telephone number to ask him - anyway?

None of this makes any sense.

And I still stand by my point that the people before jesus are screwed under the jesus died for our sins theory.

I have faith that God is just.

God may be but the descriptions I get from Christian texts lead me to believe the Christian god does not fit that description

Now that does not necessarily mean there is a problem with god but rather how he is being portrayed.

Either way from my viewpoint he is not just or not as described, and if the latter I would hesitate accepting the rest of their description of him.

I have faith that God is just.

Yah. I have millions of AIDS babies that say otherwise.

We are supposed to behave well and our species supposedly ate from the tree of knowledge. That implies that we can make some assesments.

Now, if I did not ask to be born, punishing me for being born is unfair imo.
If Eudeminea is right however I have agreed to the punishment, and God is fair.

My own belief is a little bit different, and I'm by no means saying it's the right one.

We are, at least, born with a sin nature, a part of us that wants to sin. Jesus was a man like us, but He never sinned. That's partly why His act of taking our sins for us is possible.

So, in answer to your statement, you're not being punished for being born. You're being "punished" (seperated) for sinning.

And I wish to understand Him ;)

and I have accepted that I never will........and probably don't want to.

So, in answer to your statement, you're not being punished for being born. You're being "punished" (seperated) for sinning.

So you do not accept the concept of "hereditary sin" ?

Yah. I have millions of AIDS babies that say otherwise.

the problem with atheists is you are all so short sighted, it's all about here on Earth to you people :p

So now we don't know the difference between right and wrong?


That's not what I said. I said, "How do you know?"

and I have accepted that I never will........and probably don't want to.

Then I suspect your life will be far more pleasant and satisfying than mine, from a subjective point of view.

My own belief is a little bit different, and I'm by no means saying it's the right one.

We are, at least, born with a sin nature, a part of us that wants to sin. Jesus was a man like us, but He never sinned. That's partly why His act of taking our sins for us is possible.

So, in answer to your statement, you're not being punished for being born. You're being "punished" (seperated) for sinning.

But sense it is impossible to not sin by your viewpoint the distinction is moot really.

Thats like saying we drop you off in the middle of the ocean without a raft, but it is the oceans fault that you died rather then ours because you technically drowned. Either way you were the dick head that put people in the situation where they could die knowingly.

Then I suspect your life will be far more pleasant and satisfying than mine, from a subjective point of view.

it's only pleasant because I can separate everything into two columns

things I can control

and

things I can't control

God isn't testable so there is nothing within my control to clarify anything......so I don't try.

the problem with atheists is you are all so short sighted, it's all about here on Earth to you people :p

One day people might live on the moon.

I believe if god exists we must find him and kill him before he can fuck things up anymore.

That's not what I said. I said, "How do you know?"

Do you mean how do I know personally?

So you do not accept the concept of "hereditary sin" ?

I believe in it, in a way, but I think it has more to do with an inherited sin nature. Most people who believe in "Hereditary sin" would still agree that a baby that dies during birth goes to Heaven. So that's why I say, you're not being 'punished for being born'.

That's kindof irrelevant anyway... unless you've lived a sinless life.

the problem with atheists is you are all so short sighted, it's all about here on Earth to you people :p

Hell yeah

No reward can make up for
http://www.dailypepper.com/mt/archives/ap_india_baby_051130_ssv.jpg
http://onelife.hellodesign.com/upload/asset/17_uganda_child.jpg
If it is preventable

I believe in it, in a way, but I think it has more to do with an inherited sin nature. Most people who believe in "Hereditary sin" would still agree that a baby that dies during birth goes to Heaven. So that's why I say, you're not being 'punished for being born'.

That's kindof irrelevant anyway... unless you've lived a sinless life.

And what religious backing do you have for that?

I mean no one wants to believe children can go to hell but what reasoning other then wishful thinking are you using?

Do you mean how do I know personally?

Yeah. Whatever.

Look, I'm losing interest in this discussion fast, but here's the jist of what I am saying: We're not God. Only God knows everything, and God knows the entire workings of His plan. So when we see something that we think is cruel and unjust, we are only seeing part of the picture. God is absolutely just, but who are we to say how He should carry out His justice? And in my opinion, that's an encouraging thought.

Interesting discussion, though.
I especially enjoyed the part about "God must justify Himself to us because we say so." :D What are we gonna do, take Him to court?

I especially enjoyed the part about "God must justify Himself to us because we say so." :D What are we gonna do, take Him to court?

Why not ?

Oh my god Jesus sacrificed himself? But his job as manager at wal-mart was good! He had a happy wife and 3 kids! Why?

Jesus=Hesus. Duh.

Why not ?

I guess you can if you want.

I guess you can if you want.

Exactly. Humanity can decide what it thinks of Gods behaviour. If God agrees or cares is irrelevant.

And what religious backing do you have for that?

I mean no one wants to believe children can go to hell but what reasoning other then wishful thinking are you using?

It's a doctrinal issue. And like many doctrinal issues, it's irrelevant.

Exactly. Humanity can decide what it thinks of Gods behaviour. If God agrees or cares is irrelevant.

The difference is He could wipe us off the face of the Earth if He wanted to. Or He could wipe the Earth out of existance, for that matter. And our opinion of His actions won't change a thing.

The difference is He could wipe us off the face of the Earth if He wanted to. Or He could wipe the Earth out of existance, for that matter.

So what ?

So what ?

So... did you even have a point?

The difference is He could wipe us off the face of the Earth if He wanted to. Or He could wipe the Earth out of existance, for that matter. And our opinion of His actions won't change a thing.

Agreed so why is he concerned with our views? and more importantly if he does such abhorrent things why would he deserve worship?

Jesus went through with the sacrifice because it was the reason he came to earth, to save and redeem the whole world. Nobody is exempt. Jesus is our only saviour, and the only person who didn't sin while on earth. He still went through everything we do and for sure more, so that we can be saved . Jesus is divine. He resurrected just like everybody that receives him will when he comes back for his people. The 144,000 jews will go with him as well, they represent the 12 tribes of Israel. And just so you all know the book of Revelations is talking about our near future.
We need to repent before it's too late...or suffer the consecuences!:(

Version: KJV
John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jesus went through with the sacrifice because it was the reason he came to earth, to save and redeem the whole world. Nobody is exempt. Jesus is our only saviour, and the only person who didn't sin while on earth. He still went through everything we do and for sure more, so that we can be saved . Jesus is divine. He resurrected just like everybody that receives him will when he comes back for his people. The 144,000 jews will go with him as well, they represent the 12 tribes of Israel. And just so you all know the book of Revelations is talking about our near future.
We need to repent before it's too late...or suffer the consecuences!:(

Version: KJV
John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Why did he have to give his son? he was the only one demanding that sacrifice.

So... did you even have a point?

Yes. You act as if the fact that God can wipe us all out means we should all be silent and obey.
I disagree. I have great respect for people that dare to speak up against dictators for what they believe is right, even though it means certain death.

Or to rephrase: I myself would rather die than to submit to a malevolent God. However, I am more than willing to be convinced that God is not malevolent.
A fair trial can determine that.

That's what the Gnostics believed...OT God was evil while Jesus was good.

GOD was never believed to be evil, that would go against his own word. GOD does not need to justify himself, we are the sinners, and that takes us to a dark death, and straight to HELL. Without GOD sending JESUS to earth, it would be impossible for us to go to heaven. Only by JESUS's sacrifice in the cross are we redeemed from our sins by receiveing him as our only personal LORD and SAVIOUR.

Version: KJV
John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

When Jesus died, He was a ransom for us. We can't go to Heaven because we have sin; therefore we must be seperated from God -- in Hell. Why in hell? Why a place of eternal torment? We could just as well be sperated from god in a nice desert island paradise.
Besides, if he's god, and supposedly omnipotent, why can't he stand to be in the same room as a sinner?

But Jesus went for us. All we have to do is accept that gift, and all our sin goes with Jesus to Hell, where it belongs, and we can be with God.Wow, all we have to do is not take any responsibility for our own actions? Coolies!

I'm sorry, but I can't believe that's the right thing to do.

Why? Where is that rule? And who made the rules?If God can't justify his actions even to himself, he's an irrational lunatic. Nothing to do with rules.

Well you know about it now. Better do something about it while you still can.Knowing about it is not the point; I did not sign up, period. It'd be like subscribing you to all the magazines of the world without your approval. Just letting you know I did doesn't make it acceptible.
And torturing you for eternity because you missed the first payment would be rather unsporting.

A fair trial can determine that.

Okay, you set up your court case of you versus God. I'll warn CourtTV, they're not gonna want to miss that.

GOD does not need to justify himself, we are the sinners

According to God. Rather.. circular reasoning.

Jesus is our only saviour, and the only person who didn't sin while on earth. Except for that whole wrath thing when he saw those money exchangers in the temple and vandalized their stalls and whipped them..
He might have handled that a bit better..

Okay, you set up your court case of you versus God. I'll warn CourtTV, they're not gonna want to miss that.

I prefer humanity vs God.
Aside: there is no reason God can not win that case ;)

If God can't justify his actions even to himself, he's an irrational lunatic. Nothing to do with rules.

You're still talking about God like He's not a God.

You're still talking about God like He's not a God.No, I'm not.

You're still talking about God like He's not a God.What is a god?

I prefer humanity vs God.
Aside: there is no reason God can not win that case ;)

That's true. There's also no reason why He has to show up.

I can't believe so many of you are actually trying to argue that God has to justify any of His actions. He doesn't, He's God! He can do whatever He wants! And it doesn't matter what any of us think about Him, His actions, or sin, or Hell, that's the way it works. This the reality you are in, and you have to play by its rules.

Your opinion doesn't change anything.

GOD was never believed to be evil, that would go against his own word. GOD does not need to justify himself, we are the sinners, and that takes us to a dark death, and straight to HELL. Without GOD sending JESUS to earth, it would be impossible for us to go to heaven. Only by JESUS's sacrifice in the cross are we redeemed from our sins by receiveing him as our only personal LORD and SAVIOUR.

Version: KJV
John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Um there are people in the OT before Jesus that went to heaven how is it "impossible"?

And you have to play by its rules.

No we don't. We can choose to play by his rules or we can refuse.
Which will probably mean we die, but that is too bad.

You are human. Have some pride.

That's true. There's also no reason why He has to show up.

I can't believe so many of you are actually trying to argue that God has to justify any of His actions. He doesn't, He's God! He can do whatever He wants! And it doesn't matter what any of us think about Him, His actions, or sin, or Hell, that's the way it works. This the reality you are in, and you have to play by its rules.

Your opinion doesn't change anything.
So? in the greater picture our individual opinions may not mean jack but it is all I have to work with.

And I can not voluntarily worship one that (at least from the bible) is not worthy of worship ... simple as that

Like stated before if it comes up between the mythology and my morals my morals win ... at least I know they exist

I can't believe so many of you are actually trying to argue that God has to justify any of His actions. He doesn't, He's God! He can do whatever He wants!He can do what he wants. But so can I. I can go around killing people and stealing candy from babies.
That does not make it right. I can do it, but I can't justify it.
Sure, he can do whatever. But if he can't justify it to himself, then it cannot be just. He must have reasons for what he is doing, even if they're only known to him. Otherwise he's not a rational supreme being, but just a random law of nature.

And it doesn't matter what any of us think about HimSure it does. Otherwise, why would he care? Why would he send his onyl son to die for our sins, if he didn't care what we thought?
That mere "fact" implies that what we do does matter to him.

Your opinion doesn't change anything.Neither does yours.

Frankly I'm appaled by how little you think of your God. If I were him I'd smite you.

No we don't. We can choose to play by his rules or we can refuse.
Which will probably mean we die, but that is too bad.

You are human. Have some pride.

Agreed ... and they say it is depressing to be atheist

pfft some of this automatically bad thing because we are human is way more depressing then not having god.

Jesus sacrificed himself to save mankind.

My guess was the pressures of cult leadership were finally getting to him when his diciples stared asking him to show them the god. And, so he took the old world way out.
Are you ignorant? The disciples already had sufficient proof that He was the son of God.

Jesus sacrificed himself to save mankind.But it doesn't look like mankind has been saved.

Are you ignorant? The disciples already had sufficient proof that He was the son of God.Which they did not share?

But it doesn't look like mankind has been saved.
what do you mean?

I have faith that God is just.

You'll need it.

If Jesus truly died for our sins, wouldn't it be ungrateful of us to not commit them?

If Jesus truly died for our sins, wouldn't it be ungrateful of us to not commit them?

gnostic :P

gnostic :P

Is that a pun? :confused:

(Originally Posted by Woonsocket:
So what kind of deity demands that people worship him and have faith in him despite contradictory and confusing information about him? Why does he need (and demand) to be worshipped under these circumstances? If he needs worship, why not make it clear he exists and is the only god?

It seems strange that a god who creates the Grand Canyon, Mount Everest, planets like Jupiter, and for that matter the incredible universe we discover through the Hubble almost daily needs the inhabitants of a backwater planet in one wing of a non-descript galaxy to acknowledge his greatness. Doesn't he know he's great and all-powerful? Why does he need us to keep telling him this?)

Well as for confusing information, I mean, we’re all confused about something. Most people will admit that there must be some greater intelligence out there. I mean, there are always smarter people than you in some area or other. As for contradictory information; give me examples; it annoys me when people generalise about contradictory information, when they never actually read up about these contradictions themselves.

You know what annoys me? When people sidestep the real questions to address semantics, and pretend that they have actually answered the main question. Let me put it more simply to you. Ignore the first paragraph and answer the questions in the second paragraph.

Just to clarify, what I was trying to say in the first paragraph is that if a god really existed and wanted worshippers, why would he or she not make his presence known on a regular basis and not demand faith be involved. Nonetheless, please ignore this and answer the main questions posited in my second paragraph.

Well as for confusing information, I mean, we’re all confused about something. Most people will admit that there must be some greater intelligence out there. I mean, there are always smarter people than you in some area or other. As for contradictory information; give me examples; it annoys me when people generalise about contradictory information, when they never actually read up about these contradictions themselves.

Actually, let's put one other thing to rest here. You claim I have never read up on the contradictions I cited earlier. Here they are -

1. Leviticus 25:44 also states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have neighbours who insist on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask he police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev.11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread(cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws?(Lev.20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help.

According to DCD... apparently, it was all in aid of building themeparks in Florida.

http://www.holylandexperience.com/

There's only one message that God was trying to tell us when he put Jesus on Earth only to die on the cross:

DON'T FUCK WITH THE ROMANS.

There's only one message that God was trying to tell us when he put Jesus on Earth only to die on the cross:

DON'T FUCK WITH THE ROMANS.

Maybe thats how the whole resurrection thing started....Guy goes up to romans and says "Did you really crucify Jesus"
"Yeah"
"You killed him????!!!!"
"no, hes alive..nothing can kill the Son of God.."(sniggger, snigger)

And yer man misses the joke.

Maybe thats how the whole resurrection thing started....Guy goes up to romans and says "Did you really crucify Jesus"
"Yeah"
"You killed him????!!!!"
"no, hes alive..nothing can kill the Son of God.."(sniggger, snigger)

And yer man misses the joke.

Ba-dum, CRASH!

You know what annoys me? When people sidestep the real questions to address semantics, and pretend that they have actually answered the main question. Let me put it more simply to you. Ignore the first paragraph and answer the questions in the second paragraph.

Just to clarify, what I was trying to say in the first paragraph is that if a god really existed and wanted worshippers, why would he or she not make his presence known on a regular basis and not demand faith be involved. Nonetheless, please ignore this and answer the main questions posited in my second paragraph.

"It seems strange that a god who creates the Grand Canyon, Mount Everest, planets like Jupiter, and for that matter the incredible universe we discover through the Hubble almost daily needs the inhabitants of a backwater planet in one wing of a non-descript galaxy to acknowledge his greatness. Doesn't he know he's great and all-powerful? Why does he need us to keep telling him this?)'

ya know, you dont have to use the most shallow theology out there, you can choose a more sophisticated approach.

for example

god doesnt want worship, he wants communication with his children, prayer isnt about begging for favors or about warding off bad consequences, its expressing the fullness of our spirituality. prayer isnt for the benefit of god, its for the benefit of his people.

Post-partum depression.

"It seems strange that a god who creates the Grand Canyon, Mount Everest, planets like Jupiter, and for that matter the incredible universe we discover through the Hubble almost daily needs the inhabitants of a backwater planet in one wing of a non-descript galaxy to acknowledge his greatness. Doesn't he know he's great and all-powerful? Why does he need us to keep telling him this?"

ya know, you dont have to use the most shallow theology out there, you can choose a more sophisticated approach.

for example

god doesnt want worship, he wants communication with his children, prayer isnt about begging for favors or about warding off bad consequences, its expressing the fullness of our spirituality. prayer isnt for the benefit of god, its for the benefit of his people.

Where in my question was the word "prayer" used? Please quit sidestepping. Let's try again. I am talking about worship. Seems a simple enough question - why does God insist that his believers worship him? Why would a being who according to you created the entirety of the universe need worship, especially from such sinful beings as ourselves? We are flawed by virtue of being born human (that dratted original sin thing) so what value would it be to have such creatures sing praises to His name?

"god doesnt want worship...

I believe I owe you an apology. You actually did answer my question. God does not want us to worship him - I do stand corrected.

Um, do the rest of you Christians agree with this idea? Just wondering...

I believe I owe you an apology. You actually did answer my question. God does not want us to worship him - I do stand corrected.

Um, do the rest of you Christians agree with this idea? Just wondering...


Well since you are wondering, I will answer, even though I am not Christian. I think that in part it depends on how worship is defined. Here is one definition that I like very much.


What bounty greater than this that science should be considered as an act of worship and art as service to the Kingdom of God.

O thou servant of the One true God! In this universal dispensation man's wondrous craftsmanship is reckoned as worship of the Resplendent Beauty. Consider what a bounty and blessing it is that craftsmanship is regarded as worship. In former times, it was believed that such skills were tantamount to ignorance, if not a misfortune, hindering man from drawing nigh unto God. Now consider how His infinite bestowals and abundant favours have changed hell-fire into blissful paradise, and a heap of dark dust into a luminous garden.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 144)

I believe I owe you an apology. You actually did answer my question. God does not want us to worship him - I do stand corrected.

Um, do the rest of you Christians agree with this idea? Just wondering...

since you bothered to read what i read....

"going to church" in whatever form that takes is our cultures very controlled way of accessing the divine.

were you here for that thread of zilams about being tricked by his pastor into defying the university? that kind of intense religious experience (when its not base manipulation) is the pont of going to church. its just very rare that it works that way.

I believe I owe you an apology. You actually did answer my question. God does not want us to worship him - I do stand corrected.

Um, do the rest of you Christians agree with this idea? Just wondering...

Woonsocket!
Another Rhode Islander on NSG?
Thats wicked cool!
P.S. I live in Pawtucket and consider myself to be a damn good driver :D

If Jesus truly died for our sins, wouldn't it be ungrateful of us to not commit them?

Unfortunately not. Jesus died for the sins we did not commit but were nevertheless guilty of in Gods eyes due to the whole original/hereditary sin concept.

Woonsocket!
Another Rhode Islander on NSG?
Thats wicked cool!
P.S. I live in Pawtucket and consider myself to be a damn good driver :D

OT but you would be one of the few. What is up with this stopping in the middle of a through street to let people with a stop sign on a side street out into traffic? It makes people behind the "polite" one slam on their brakes in the middle of a through street. I'm just sayin'...

Forgiveness of sins.

Unfortunately not. Jesus died for the sins we did not commit but were nevertheless guilty of in Gods eyes due to the whole original/hereditary sin concept.who came up with that idiotic concept anyways?

god doesnt want worship, he wants communication with his children, prayer isnt about begging for favors or about warding off bad consequences, its expressing the fullness of our spirituality. prayer isnt for the benefit of god, its for the benefit of his people.

so i've just been misunderstanding all the hellstone-and-brimfire wankeresque preachers screaming the loudest that THEY represent God, not God himself who "speaks to every one of us"

see, there's all these preachers, of every Abrahamaic sect, telling us endlessly that God does want our unconditional slavish devotion without reason (as a way of exercising our God-given and much-touted free-will(!))

and the very same disclaim us if we don't "hear God's will"
despite the fact that none of the modern prophets agree with one another...

So how are we to know God's true voice? with so much pollution going on

:p Religious madness can lead to all kinds of aberrant behaviour.

so i've just been misunderstanding all the hellstone-and-brimfire wankeresque preachers screaming the loudest that THEY represent God, not God himself who "speaks to every one of us"

see, there's all these preachers, of every Abrahamaic sect, telling us endlessly that God does want our unconditional slavish devotion without reason (as a way of exercising our God-given and much-touted free-will(!))

and the very same disclaim us if we don't "hear God's will"
despite the fact that none of the modern prophets agree with one another...

So how are we to know God's true voice? with so much pollution going on

by choosing a church that preaches a more enlightened theology?

you dont need someone else to interpret god for you. read the gospels. ask yourself what kind of god jesus was talking about. think about it, pray about it. come to your OWN conclusion.

since the reformation we are free to choose our own view of god. we dont have to be stuck with some asshole who preaches an ugly punishing view of god. we dont have to sink to the lowest form of theology. believing in jesus doesnt mean following either pat robertson or the pope. instead of trying to fit our understanding of jesus into the belief of some higher human authority we can look around for a church that fits our concept of god.

for example

god doesnt want worship, he wants communication with his children, prayer isnt about begging for favors or about warding off bad consequences, its expressing the fullness of our spirituality. prayer isnt for the benefit of god, its for the benefit of his people.It depends, though, on what you define worship as. If you take worship meaning literally praising God, singing to him, bowing down ,etc. than it does seem a little bit high and mighty and a tall task. But the way you define it, as communication sounds so much more loving. What good parent doesn't want contact with their children?

The way I see worship, is simply living your life for God, not yourself. Praising God in a literal sense shouldn't be your whole life; you can't just sit back and expect God to provide everything for you while you contemplate his greatness, but that you should live your life striving to follow God and his commands. Praise and prayer is part of worship, but not the be all and end all of it.

So in the sense of your life being a worship to God, then he does want worship.

Yes. Sheol is best compared to a kind of purgatory; it's not suffering, but it is a place where our spirits lead a faint existence, awaiting the final judgement. It's not oblivion or soul-sleep, but isn't particularly pleasant either. The whole point it to contain the dead until it is time for judgement.

LMAO so even after death you still face beauracratic delays and long lines? And will they make us take off our shoes and ban liquids?

It depends, though, on what you define worship as. If you take worship meaning literally praising God, singing to him, bowing down ,etc. than it does seem a little bit high and mighty and a tall task. But the way you define it, as communication sounds so much more loving. What good parent doesn't want contact with their children?

The way I see worship, is simply living your life for God, not yourself. Praising God in a literal sense shouldn't be your whole life; you can't just sit back and expect God to provide everything for you while you contemplate his greatness, but that you should live your life striving to follow God and his commands. Praise and prayer is part of worship, but not the be all and end all of it.

So in the sense of your life being a worship to God, then he does want worship.

yes it does then depend on your definition of worship. you can, as you have, use a better definition of the word in order to have a more spiritual approach to relgion.

god doesnt want worship in that old "burn an ox for god" kinda way. part of jesus' sacrifice is to show that that idea of worship is stupid. what sacrifice can compare to what jesus did?

god wants us to be good people. jesus laid out a plan for just what that means. for us to follow jesus could well be seen as a way of worshipping god. if that speaks to you, id recommend going with it.

We're not God. Only God knows everything, and God knows the entire workings of His plan. So when we see something that we think is cruel and unjust, we are only seeing part of the picture. God is absolutely just, but who are we to say how He should carry out His justice?



How do you know God is absolutly just? Just taking his word on it because he says so? In order to be able to acretain if God was just, there would have to be a higher order of being to decide on his ability to be just. Otherwise you just have to take Gods word that hes just. Creatures of power always insist they are just. Osamma Bin Laden thinks he is just too. The people with the power get to decide what "just" is. Its not a real concept.

He resurrected just like everybody that receives him will when he comes back for his people. The 144,000 jews will go with him as well, they represent the 12 tribes of Israel. And just so you all know the book of Revelations is talking about our near future.
We need to repent before it's too late...or suffer the consecuences!:(

Version: KJV
John 3:16


About the 144,000 that get to go along for the ride. What happens if there are more then 144,000 "qualified" Jews? Does God have an affirmative action program that settles the "ties"? Is there just a God lottery? 144,000 short straws? Just the hot chicks?

How do you know God is absolutly just? Just taking his word on it because he says so? In order to be able to acretain if God was just, there would have to be a higher order of being to decide on his ability to be just. Otherwise you just have to take Gods word that hes just. Creatures of power always insist they are just. Osamma Bin Laden thinks he is just too. The people with the power get to decide what "just" is. Its not a real concept.

Like in networking self signing a certificate

"You can trust me"

Who says so?

"... um well I do ...."

The basic idea is that in order to save ones sin, something must be sacraficed. In the OT it was a lamb or dove etc...

But if you sacrafice something perfect and pure, all people will be saved and no other sacrafice will be needed. That perfect and pure form was Jesus, or God.

Science is, in some places, as much a religion a christianity. It says the world came to be because suddenly, for no apparent reason, an incredible amount of energy focused at one small point and started spitting out matter. I find this much harder to believe than God.

But a great, omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, being who creates an entire infinite universe, and then populates an average planet, in an unimpressive system, with beings, who he demands worship without any cause, is so easy to belive in though?

The basic idea is that in order to save ones sin, something must be sacraficed. In the OT it was a lamb or dove etc...

But if you sacrafice something perfect and pure, all people will be saved and no other sacrafice will be needed.

And who wrote that rediculous rule that has absolutly no causal relationship to each other?

And who wrote that rediculous rule that has absolutly no causal relationship to each other?

Huh?

Sorry badly worded. Why should having something pure dying have anything to do with curing sin? Who went and decided that? Like purity dying is suddenly and magically a shot of pennecilian now? One has zero to do with the other.

Sorry badly worded. Why should having something pure dying have anything to do with curing sin? Who went and decided that? Like purity dying is suddenly and magically a shot of pennecilian now? One has zero to do with the other.

Well the price of sin is death, so Jesus is basicly paying the fine for you.

Well the price of sin is death, so Jesus is basicly paying the fine for you.

And the price of sin is death why again? Oh and btw please send me a check for $500. You agreed to this in the preexistence then also agreed to not remember it afterwards. PM me for my bank details.

The basic idea is that in order to save ones sin, something must be sacraficed. In the OT it was a lamb or dove etc...

But if you sacrafice something perfect and pure, all people will be saved and no other sacrafice will be needed. That perfect and pure form was Jesus, or God.

so god sacrificed himself to himself and solved the whole sacrifice problem right then and there.

now sin is purged and we can get on with a whole new relationship with god.

And the price of sin is death why again?

Well there are various reasons, depending on what sort of theist you are. It is either

A: Because God said so

B: Thats just the way it is

C: Some extremely complex answer that wont really make any sense.

so god sacrificed himself to himself and solved the whole sacrifice problem right then and there.

now sin is purged and we can get on with a whole new relationship with god.

So let me get this straight. God straightened out a problem that he made in the first place? Cant he just change the "sacrifice rule" if he feels like it? After all he IS God. Changing the wording on a few laws in the books is mere clerical work. Although if i were him id have a bit of a greater sence of humor about it and make the penalty for sin something like an overabundence of pale green daisys. Imagine suddenly a ton of pale green daisys spill into your kitchen and your like "Dammit! Mrs Wilson must be having an affair with that poolboy again!" THEN i would believe in God!

So let me get this straight. God straightened out a problem that he made in the first place? Cant he just change the "sacrifice rule" if he feels like it? After all he IS God. Changing the wording on a few laws in the books is mere clerical work.

Well hes straightened it out now.

so god sacrificed himself to himself and solved the whole sacrifice problem right then and there.

now sin is purged and we can get on with a whole new relationship with god.

Seems to me a rather stupid way to do things ... also makes his death a lot less of a sacrifice really ... he was the only one requiring death, seems to me a rather blood thirsty way to do things.

Seems to me a rather stupid way to do things ... also makes his death a lot less of a sacrifice really ... he was the only one requiring death, seems to me a rather blood thirsty way to do things.

So let me get this straight. God straightened out a problem that he made in the first place? Cant he just change the "sacrifice rule" if he feels like it? After all he IS God. Changing the wording on a few laws in the books is mere clerical work. Although if i were him id have a bit of a greater sence of humor about it and make the penalty for sin something like an overabundence of pale green daisys. Imagine suddenly a ton of pale green daisys spill into your kitchen and your like "Dammit! Mrs Wilson must be having an affair with that poolboy again!" THEN i would believe in God!

god is fixing a problem with the structure of the universe. its earthly manifestation is that he came to earth, lived as a human being and sacrificed himself in order to change the covenant.

that IS god's equivalent of clerical work.

god is fixing a problem with the structure of the universe. its earthly manifestation is that he came to earth, lived as a human being and sacrificed himself in order to change the covenant.

Isnt that going to ALOT of extra trouble when he could instead go," Ahem attention please but the new rulebook is now downloadable at God.com Thank you for your attention in this matter"

Isnt that going to ALOT of extra trouble when he could instead go," Ahem attention please but the new rulebook is now downloadable at God.com Thank you for your attention in this matter"

maybe. youd have to ask god about that.

maybe his way was more elegant.

*shrug*

maybe. youd have to ask god about that.

maybe his way was more elegant.

*shrug*

I.e. you don't know.

I.e. you don't know.

of course i dont know. duh. am i god?

of course i dont know. duh. am i god?

Thats the problem, how can so many christians expect people to believe in their God, when they can't even solve most of the questions.

God gave man the ability to make up his own mind when he created Adam and Eve whether the wanted to obey him.They decided to disobey God and then were banned from Garden.
Man was never meant to see death at all but that is what happened.
So God promised that he would send a saviour (HIS SON) to die for the sins of this world (GEN.3:15).
Excepting Christ is not 20000 hail marys this or 50000 of that as some religions might lead you to believe.
Its as simple as reaching out and taking a gift and excepting it and asking the Lord to forgive you.All the atrocities that go on in this world are not God's fault.Man thinks he knows better than God.But if you look around i'd say with all that happened in history and and the present we are'nt getting it right.We never will because there is only answer and thats God's plan of Salvation.

Thats the problem, how can so many christians expect people to believe in their God, when they can't even solve most of the questions.

who needs a God when you know all the answers to life?

who needs a God when you know all the answers to life?who needs a god when you don't know all the answers to life?

who needs a god when you don't know all the answers to life?

:p haha

who needs a god when you don't know all the answers to life?

thats why i have "The magic 8 ball"

http://www.amazon.com/Mattel-30188-Magic-8-Ball/dp/B00001ZWV7

Thats the problem, how can so many christians expect people to believe in their God, when they can't even solve most of the questions.

either people find that the story woven about god, jesus and the rest of humanity speaks to them or they dont. a billion and a half people in the world have no big problem with it.