NationStates Jolt Archive

The police set a 73 year old man's house on fire with a diversionary grenade while executing a search warrant for a home invasion. The police seem to get carried away with all the neat new toys available to them. Maybe someone should take away their grenades and other paramilitary equipment. It seems to me that as police get equipment to make them safer the public is put at more risk from the cops. I'd rather see the police take risks rather than the civilians. That's what they're paid for.


http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=81092

When I witnessed what looked like a robbery at 11:30 at night in a closed shopping centre and reported it, the police told me "there is a lot of building work going on". They really are useless wankers. My neighbour is a policeman, gets to retire at 45 with a full public pension too. And then the's the overtime. And 'going out on the beat' by having a jolly shopping trip...

I'll turn that incoherent ramble into something vaguely useful and legible later.

I thought this might be some sort of uniform fetish thread.

*shrugs*

oh well.

Heh heh.

Roflcopter.

I thought this might be some sort of uniform fetish thread.

*shrugs*

oh well.
* smiles :)

The police set a 73 year old man's house on fire with a diversionary grenade while executing a search warrant for a home invasion. The police seem to get carried away with all the neat new toys available to them. Maybe someone should take away their grenades and other paramilitary equipment. It seems to me that as police get equipment to make them safer the public is put at more risk from the cops. I'd rather see the police take risks rather than the civilians. That's what they're paid for.


http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=81092

True. It seems like the police have been media darlings for a while now, but have you ever actually seen police procedure and the equipment? Everything is for "the safety of the officers" and yet all we hear about is the heriosm and self-sacrifice. Don't get me wrong, we have seen heroism in the police, but it seems to be coming less and less frequently as the local police departments gradually evolving into goon squads.

Oh, and I really loved this:

“This is not a botched search warrant,” said Gilbert police spokesman Lt. Joe Ruet. “It’s not the wrong house, and it’s a very serious criminal that we’re after.”

So just what DOES constitute a botched search warrant? Can't serve the warrant and gather any evidence if the house burned down with everything in it.

tools. Let the arse-covering begin.

So, going by the assjack posts in this thread, y'all would demand that the police give up their bullet proof vests/guns/nightsticks/police dogs etall and just run around naked. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I take it that you think that the daysof the Old West, when any douchebag with a gun could effect "justice" are how things ought to be.

To say that y'all are 'tards is an insult to 'tards.

So, going by the assjack posts in this thread, y'all would demand that the police give up their bullet proof vests/guns/nightsticks/police dogs etall and just run around naked. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I take it that you think that the daysof the Old West, when any douchebag with a gun could effect "justice" are how things ought to be.

To say that y'all are 'tards is an insult to 'tards.

How about they just get rid of their grenades, stop endangering everyone's life with high speed chases to catch a car theif, and act responsibly and reasonably for once. They're fucking public servants, but they tend to act like they're the public's masters.

I've had cops do some fucked up things to me. Everyone's read news stories about cops abusing people and trampling on people's rights. Fact is they're not heros. They're ordinary people trusted with a certain degree of power and nobody seems to be making sure that they use that power responsibly.

Not only are they lazy and rude, they are invariably stupid. Sure it's a fairly dangerous line of work - but far less so than deli-clerk, gas pump jockey or construction - and anyone looking to get into the pig racket is well aware of this before hand because they bang on about it all the fuking time. If you factor in that the pay and benefits are far higher than these guys could ever earn normally with their meagre level of education, brains and workshy attutitude the sense of entitlement and self importance is offensive. These douches have become the new teachers.

I wish they'd quit the whole 'protect and serve' bullshit too. Mostly they are a revenue raising arm or local government. They just aren't very good at it.

somewhere i saw an excellent article on the militarization of the piggies and how many people they wind up killing because of it and such. i'll look around for it.

So, going by the assjack posts in this thread, y'all would demand that the police give up their bullet proof vests/guns/nightsticks/police dogs etall and just run around naked. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I take it that you think that the daysof the Old West, when any douchebag with a gun could effect "justice" are how things ought to be.

To say that y'all are 'tards is an insult to 'tards.

When cops abuse their power, they ought to be stripped of their badge. Abso-fraggin'-lutely. Ever actually talked to a cop on duty? I have. Even when asking a simple question they look at you and talk to you like somehow you're wasting their time. Ever been pulled over? Ever had a cop talk derisively to you? Coming form anyone else, remarks like those would be grounds for a fistfight. Coming from a cop, all you can do is bite your tongue and say "yes sir" even though YOU are the one who should be called "sir." (Oh yes, they do say "sir" but ever notice how the tone of voice makes it sound like they really mean "asshole?")

Fail to be overtly respectful, and that can mean the difference between a traffic warning and a ticket with the maximum possible fine. (This is justice?)

A few times I've been the victim of theft and/or vandalism. Dealing with the police takes an unpleasant incident and makes it really hurt. Firstly, there's no chance that reporting the incident will actually bring results. Second, just getting them to do a formal police report on the incident can sometimes be difficult, at best. (They hate paperwork, and they know as well as we do that nothing will come of it.) Finally, half the time you get to hear about what YOU could have done differently. (blame the victim)

No. I have no use for the police. Their presence is a deterrent to crime, but in actual practice I have not yet had a good experience with the police.

What the fuck are cops doing with grenades? Cops arrest criminals with handguns. Not criminals with tanks.

What the fuck are cops doing with grenades? Cops arrest criminals with handguns. Not criminals with tanks.

Heh and it's not just grenades.

Waco, anyone?

Heh and it's not just grenades.

Waco, anyone?

Didn't they firebomb Waco?

Didn't they firebomb Waco?

They used tanks armed with flammable tear gas canisters that ignited the wooden building. The canisters were mounted on the end of the gun barrel which was used to punch holes in the walls, then drop the canisters inside. They later tried to cover it up by changing the equipment lists to reflect only non-flammable materials, but they got caught during a Congressional hearing on the matter.

So, going by the assjack posts in this thread, y'all would demand that the police give up their bullet proof vests/guns/nightsticks/police dogs etall and just run around naked. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I take it that you think that the daysof the Old West, when any douchebag with a gun could effect "justice" are how things ought to be.

To say that y'all are 'tards is an insult to 'tards.

Wow. Just, wow.

Nobody said anything like that, badge-kisser.

They used tanks armed with flammable tear gas canisters that ignited the wooden building. The canisters were mounted on the end of the gun barrel which was used to punch holes in the walls, then drop the canisters inside. They later tried to cover it up by changing the equipment lists to reflect only non-flammable materials, but they got caught during a Congressional hearing on the matter.

Holy shit. That's...


Damn, we didn't even do that to the fucking germans.

Anyway, I have no problem with armed cops. Tasers, nightsticks, pistols, shotguns, I think the cops should have about one assault rifle for every 4 cops.

But for chrissakes, no weapons-grade explosives.

Not only are they lazy and rude, they are invariably stupid. Sure it's a fairly dangerous line of work - but far less so than deli-clerk, gas pump jockey or construction - and anyone looking to get into the pig racket is well aware of this before hand because they bang on about it all the fuking time. If you factor in that the pay and benefits are far higher than these guys could ever earn normally with their meagre level of education, brains and workshy attutitude the sense of entitlement and self importance is offensive. These douches have become the new teachers.

I wish they'd quit the whole 'protect and serve' bullshit too. Mostly they are a revenue raising arm or local government. They just aren't very good at it.

You had me 'til there. Go fuck yourself.

You had me 'til there. Go fuck yourself.

I notice how well you argue your position.

I notice how well you argue your position.

There was no position taken in the initial insult. I felt no need to express myself in any way more complex than the post to which I replied. I'm a teacher, see, and unreasoned horseshit like "these douches are the new teachers" is a DIRECT insult to me. I responded in kind. End of story.

Heh and it's not just grenades.

Waco, anyone?

The military was involved in Waco, wasn't it?

I agree that the police are absolutely necessary, but in many situations, they seem to be wholly unsuited to the sensitivity of their position. Aside from that, I agree with the notion that -- especially in rural areas -- the police are chiefly a source of revenue. Why else would someone get a maximum ticket for being 10 over in the middle of the desert, having passed no other cars besides said cop for the last fifteen minutes? Exactly who did they serve and protect in that case?

I do not envy the job of policeman, but I do think the whole macho, gung-ho, faux Marine-corps culture needs to be re-examined. I'm reminded of the NYC cops who interrogated the (I believe he was Somali) immigrant by shoving the pole end of a floor lamp up his ass, doing severe damage to the man's intestines. What kind of police training convinces a law officer that sodomy with furniture is acceptable?

That said, I'd wager that most police officers like their jobs, and not just because of the power and testosterone boost they get. But the toleration and sometimes seeming condonement of the locker-room mentality (even among the WOMEN) and adolescent posturing is distressing.

There -- is that a better explanation? I'm still not giving Lacadaemon a scintilla of leeway for his hosrseshit post.

police give up their bullet proof vests/guns/nightsticks/police dogs etall and just run around naked. .

That would ruin the whole "uniform fetish" thing, now wouldn't it?

The military was involved in Waco, wasn't it?

Nope. The FBI -- basically federal cops. That's why they subpoena'd Janet Reno as SecJus, and not SecDef during the inestigation.

Nope. The FBI -- basically federal cops. That's why they subpoena'd Janet Reno as SecJus, and not SecDef during the inestigation.

Huh. Could've sworn that the National Guard was also involved.

Anyways, Waco isn't even comparable to the grenade thing. For one, the FBI wasn't at fault in Waco.

Huh. Could've sworn that the National Guard was also involved.

Anyways, Waco isn't even comparable to the grenade thing. For one, the FBI wasn't at fault in Waco.

The Texas ARNG secured the perimeter, IIRC but that's all.

The military was involved in Waco, wasn't it?

No that was the BATF, a sort of Federal-level Police force, like the FBI, that specifically dealt with cases involving Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.

Having read a couple posts I dind't see before I replied, I'll elaborate.

The BATF originally arrived to serve the warrant. That was where the standoff began. By the time it was over, the FBI was also directly involved. The Texas National Guard was not directly involved, due to prohibitions about using military assets against citizens. (Which is apparently a technicality, since BATF/FBI tanks are what I'd consider military assets, but they get away with it because the equipment wasn't under the control of any branch of the US Armed Forces.

No that was the BATF, a sort of Federal-level Police force, like the FBI, that specifically dealt with cases involving Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.

That's right. DUH!

Crap, it's been so long, I forgot about the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. Either way, Janet Reno was called to task for the fiasco.

That's right. DUH!

Crap, it's been so long, I forgot about the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. Either way, Janet Reno was called to task for the fiasco.

And got off light, I might add.

The whole operation was a complete shambles from the beginning, and depite the propaganda film "Ambush at Waco" the operation was not planned well nor were the officers heroic victims of religious zealot aggression.

(Don't believe it was a propaganda film? Believe this: The standof was 88 days long. The movie, which dealt with the initial assault and the events leading up to it, was written, shot, edited and released before the compound was burned.)

I'm still not giving Lacadaemon a scintilla of leeway for his hosrseshit post.

What horseshit? They complain as much about their jobs these days as teachers do: hence "the new teachers". (Or did we slip through to a bizarro world where teachers don't constantly complain about lack of respect and low pay when I wasn't looking?). Nobody made them become cops. Nobody makes anyone become a teacher. If it is so horrible compared to every other job in the entire world - in either case, cop or teacher - then do something else.

This whole attitude is emblematic of the 21st century US civil servant mentality. Everyone wants to everyone else to think that what they do is amazing and special even though, by and large, they spend most of their working day fucking around with trivia that is incidental to the original reason why these institutions were set up in the first place. Hell, a sizable number of teachers only have jobs because the government doesn't want to tell the truth about unemployment numbers.

The reality is that civil servants are no more or less than workaday employees: and their bitching about their employment conditions is no more or less noteworthy than the same from guy who makes my sandwiches. The pay and compensation is set by the perception of the employer's - the public - view of the value they add. Nothing more. And they are not 'heroes'. They are not noble and self-sacrificing. They are 9-5 regular working stiffs. And It's silly to claim otherwise, or expect the other 99% of the world to carve out an exception for them because they feel 'entitled'. Doubly so since in the case of the police and the teaching profession great pains are taken to explain to the rest of us all the time just how self sacrificing these individuals actually are.

But god forbid anyone, anywhere, should have to take responsibilty for their decisions. Ever.

It's funny how police take unnecessary actions against non-white citizens.

The police set a 73 year old man's house on fire with a diversionary grenade while executing a search warrant for a home invasion. [/url]

That 73 year old man will get a lot of money for the cops mistake.

That 73 year old man will get a lot of money for the cops mistake.

Rightfully so ... hopefully enough to replace the house he lost

That 73 year old man will get a lot of money for the cops mistake.

Yup.

It's a mistake, for crying out loud. Perhaps the grenade was faulty (was the 73 year old man a threat? Was he armed, dangerous?). Do Cops make mistakes? Yes. Are the bad cops? yes. Why? Because they hire out of the general population, and the general population isn't full of perfect people. It's a barrel full of half rotten apples, some are better than others.

Regardless, Most cops are good people. I say this as someone who has gotten tickets (I even got off with a warning once due to a sticker on my car back in 04) and been in contact with the Criminal justice system. I also say this as a supporter of the "pigs" (as some of you panty waisted momma's anarchist boys would say) and Po-po's.

That 73 year old man will get a lot of money for the cops mistake.

I doubt he'll still be alive by the time this makes its way through the court system. The city will make sure it gets drug out as long as possible for that reason. His kids (if he has any) might get a buck or two though.

I've had good experiences and bad experiences with cops. But it seems to me that most people who go into that profession have a serious superiority complex. When I was 16 I had a wreck. Totaled my car in the rain. When the cop showed up, he didn't ask what had happened or how I was, he just wrote me out a ticket for speeding. As I wasn't speeding, I went to court to fight it. The judge asked the cop if he had clocked me on radar. He said no. The judge then asked the cop if he measured my skid marks to determine my speed. He said no. The judge dismissed my ticket and chastised the cop. But that didn't end it. For the next year that cop sat in front of my house every day watching me and waiting for me to make a mistake. And despite the ticket being thrown out, he turned me in to my insurance company and screwed up my rates. He was a vindictive bastard.

Rightfully so ... hopefully enough to replace the house he lost

If he gets money from the city, then they are, by definition, admitting fault. That being the case, I wonder what will happen to the individual in charge of the scene?

Probably nothing.

Yup.

It's a mistake, for crying out loud. Perhaps the grenade was faulty (was the 73 year old man a threat? Was he armed, dangerous?). Do Cops make mistakes? Yes. Are the bad cops? yes. Why? Because they hire out of the general population, and the general population isn't full of perfect people. It's a barrel full of half rotten apples, some are better than others.

Regardless, Most cops are good people. I say this as someone who has gotten tickets (I even got off with a warning once due to a sticker on my car back in 04) and been in contact with the Criminal justice system. I also say this as a supporter of the "pigs" (as some of you panty waisted momma's anarchist boys would say) and Po-po's.

That's not good enough. Police officers MUST be held to a higher standard. They are given the power to carry weapons the rest of us can't. They can make arrests, pull you over, gather warrants and so on. People with that level of power SHOULD be paragons of virtue and honesty. These people are responsible for gathering evidence. That evidence can be u sed to make or break a trial where a terrible criminal could go free, or an innocent man executed. Don't you think that whomever is given that responsibility ought to be the very best of the best we, as a society, can produce?

But as you said, they're not. They are, at best, a cross - section of society... and if society were, on the average, good enough, then we woudln't need cops in the first place.

I find it interesting that you mentioned that some cops are good based on the fact that your ticket was downgraded to a warning just because of your bumper sticker. Why should a bumper sticker have even the slightest impact on the result of a traffic stop? Doesn't sound like justice to me. You either deserved a ticket or you didn't. That judgement call is left to the officer who pulled you over but shoudln't be influenced by your politics, sense of humor, or whatever it was that the bumper sticker displayed.

I've had good and bad experiences with cops. Mostly bad.

One cant say that the majority are good or bad with any authority beyond personal experience but one can say that there are good cops or that there are bad cops.

I can understand that the police have a very dangerous job and I thank those that face those dangers in order to help keep our cities generally safe places to live.

I can also understand that the police can quickly become jaded and be suspicious of anyone and everyone because they see nothing but law breaking all day long. But that doesnt give them the right to treat those that have broken the law so brutally (unless they are violent criminals, in which case I ain't gunna complain too much) but they should not treat average citizens as criminals or just be so condescending to them with such regularity (something I have experienced nearly every time I come in contact with one on the job).

I've also know police officers personally and I have to say that it seems to take a dickwad personality to be a cop or at least the jobs attracts those types of people like flies.

Yup.

It's a mistake, for crying out loud. Perhaps the grenade was faulty (was the 73 year old man a threat? Was he armed, dangerous?). Do Cops make mistakes? Yes. Are the bad cops? yes. Why? Because they hire out of the general population, and the general population isn't full of perfect people. It's a barrel full of half rotten apples, some are better than others.

Regardless, Most cops are good people. I say this as someone who has gotten tickets (I even got off with a warning once due to a sticker on my car back in 04) and been in contact with the Criminal justice system. I also say this as a supporter of the "pigs" (as some of you panty waisted momma's anarchist boys would say) and Po-po's.

I agree that they are normal people, But when they are given more powers they have a higher level of expectation of performance

So, going by the assjack posts in this thread, y'all would demand that the police give up their bullet proof vests/guns/nightsticks/police dogs etall and just run around naked. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I take it that you think that the daysof the Old West, when any douchebag with a gun could effect "justice" are how things ought to be.

To say that y'all are 'tards is an insult to 'tards.

Yeah burning down old mens' houses and shooting old women after breaking into their houses is cool. We should make it a reality show. Right?:rolleyes:

Yeah burning down old mens' houses and shooting old women after breaking into their houses is cool. We should make it a reality show. Right?:rolleyes:

Hey you m ight have something there! Maybe even a gameshow type reality tv where the winner gets a bumper sticker that wards off traffic tickets...

I've had good and bad experiences with cops. Mostly bad.

One cant say that the majority are good or bad with any authority beyond personal experience but one can say that there are good cops or that there are bad cops.

I can understand that the police have a very dangerous job and I thank those that face those dangers in order to help keep our cities generally safe places to live.

I can also understand that the police can quickly become jaded and be suspicious of anyone and everyone because they see nothing but law breaking all day long. But that doesnt give them the right to treat those that have broken the law so brutally (unless they are violent criminals, in which case I ain't gunna complain too much) but they should not treat average citizens as criminals or just be so condescending to them with such regularity (something I have experienced nearly every time I come in contact with one on the job).

I've also know police officers personally and I have to say that it seems to take a dickwad personality to be a cop or at least the jobs attracts those types of people like flies.

There's also something of a dickwad culture to most police departments. I"ve known several cops before they became cops. They started out as decent, pleasant, sociable people. Slowly they turned into arrogant, beligerent, self-centered people. Something about their culture tells them that they are better than other people, deserve more privilege, and deserve more power.

There's also something of a dickwad culture to most police departments. I"ve known several cops before they became cops. They started out as decent, pleasant, sociable people. Slowly they turned into arrogant, beligerent, self-centered people. Something about their culture tells them that they are better than other people, deserve more privilege, and deserve more power.

And that's probably not helped by the cover each other's butt culture that goes on in police departments where even if a relatively honest cop witnesses another officer doing something wrong, it will go unreported.

There was no position taken in the initial insult. I felt no need to express myself in any way more complex than the post to which I replied. I'm a teacher, see, and unreasoned horseshit like "these douches are the new teachers" is a DIRECT insult to me. I responded in kind. End of story.
You sound like a crappy teacher. If you don't have a skin, you shouldn't be working with kids.

You sound like a crappy teacher. If you don't have a skin, you shouldn't be working with kids.

A surprisingly good way to win the respect of students is to insult them back if they insult you.

It's a mistake, for crying out loud.

and for it, cops should be fired and perhaps serve jail time. if you get to wield power, then you get to face extremely harsh scrutiny on everything you do and face severe penalties for stuff that us normals get to just write off completely.

A surprisingly good way to win the respect of students is to insult them back if they insult you.

Yeah but you do it in a way that shows skill and unwillingness to back down ... not out of anger which is the impression I am getting from that poster.

You get angry and lash back that is counter productive ... if you can keep it cool and dish it as good as you get it I can see how that would be able to gain respect

I work at the Department of Justice, so I guess I'll play Devil's Advocate here.

Yes. There are overzealous 'goon' cops out there. Not nearly enough oversight. Some of the officers are from less-than-savoury backgrounds. I know of one state trooper whose father lead a neo-nazi group, but I digress.

On the other hand, there are still good officers out there. Especially older, seasoned officers who rather use their heads rather than their trigger finger.

A good cop doing his job doesn't get written about; an overzealous cop who starts a 3-hour interstate highway chase killing an innocent bystander gets plenty of print.

I ask you what would happen if all the police officers in your town/city were be kidnapped by aliens, if only for half an hour. You'd appreciate them more.

As a private citizen though, I am more worried about so-called National Security Laws such as the Patriot Act. If you thought local cops and state troopers were bad, some of the bad boys in the Bureau act like they are the Gestapo.

Huh. Could've sworn that the National Guard was also involved.

They were, and more than just Wallonchia claims.

The Texas ARNG secured the perimeter, IIRC but that's all.

The ATF used ARNG helos (obtained under the false pretense of a raid on a drug lab) in the initial raid. Also, the nine or ten Bradley
Fighting Vehicles, two M1A1 tanks and four or five M728 CEVs used in the final assault, and their maintanance personel, came from Ft. Hood.

Anyways, Waco isn't even comparable to the grenade thing. For one, the FBI wasn't at fault in Waco.

ATF shot first, just like at Ruby Ridge. The FBI took over after the ATF screwed up the initial raid. They screwed up even more than the ATF did. And Waco was also more screwed up that the Ruby Ridge fiasco.

Yeah burning down old mens' houses and shooting old women after breaking into their houses is cool.

Good to see I'm not the only person here who hasn't forgotten Kathryn Johnston.

On the other hand, there are still good officers out there. Especially older, seasoned officers who rather use their heads rather than their trigger finger.

A good cop doing his job doesn't get written about; an overzealous cop who starts a 3-hour interstate highway chase killing an innocent bystander gets plenty of print.

I ask you what would happen if all the police officers in your town/city were be kidnapped by aliens, if only for half an hour. You'd appreciate them more.

As a private citizen though, I am more worried about so-called National Security Laws such as the Patriot Act. If you thought local cops and state troopers were bad, some of the bad boys in the Bureau act like they are the Gestapo.

Well said. As I think my above post lines out, I agree that the FBI and BATF, with the bluring and softening of the Posse Comitatus Act of
1878, are a serious danger.

The military was involved in Waco, wasn't it?
Yes.

To get the training and equipment that they wanted, BATF said that the Waco incident was about drugs rather than weapons (as large scale drug raids had a massive budget for that kind of thing IIRC).

And then you've got the helicopters and supplies, and it all goes a bit Posse Comitatus and such.

AZ cops have a deep love affair with being 'tactical' when they serve warrants.

I recall once, two summers ago when I was going from my hand surgeon's office to my car, I came across a couple of PHXPD guys in their swat gear and asked what was going on.

"Serving a warrant up the street."

At least twice in the last semester the Tempe PD insisted on cordoning off bus stops near campus to send their robot tank thing in to blow up backpacks that people forgot, but which "were suspicious."

Only a matter of time before something like this happened, especially in the boondocks like Gilbert.

AZ cops have a deep love affair with being 'tactical' when they serve warrants.

I recall once, two summers ago when I was going from my hand surgeon's office to my car, I came across a couple of PHXPD guys in their swat gear and asked what was going on.

"Serving a warrant up the street."

At least twice in the last semester the Tempe PD insisted on cordoning off bus stops near campus to send their robot tank thing in to blow up backpacks that people forgot, but which "were suspicious."

Only a matter of time before something like this happened, especially in the boondocks like Gilbert.

At least now all the other police forces will know how big their penises are.

So, going by the assjack posts in this thread, y'all would demand that the police give up their bullet proof vests/guns/nightsticks/police dogs etall and just run around naked.

no, just the hot ones ;)

Huh. Could've sworn that the National Guard was also involved.

Anyways, Waco isn't even comparable to the grenade thing. For one, the FBI wasn't at fault in Waco.

waco: the rules of engagement
good documentary, showing the ineptitude and arrogance of the ATF right from the start
i especially like the bit when the branch davidians, during the initial shootout, stopped firing when the ATF ran out of ammo (!) and let them collect their wounded and walk away despite having the drop on them

I think we should disarm the police.

Then kneel them all down in one big line.

Then show them how fun police brutality is from the other perspective.

Then maybe kill them all.

But that's just me and my crazy ultra-left dreams.

I ask you what would happen if all the police officers in your town/city were be kidnapped by aliens, if only for half an hour. You'd appreciate them more.

Only if the fact that they were gone was publicized.

Genoa police brutality:

This week Mr Covell, who was working for IndyMedia during the summit, said: "I was in a coma for four days after the raid; my head was split from the front to the back. I had eight broken ribs, shredded lungs, 10 broken teeth. The treatment has not finished yet. I need another operation on my spine and my left hand will have to be broken and re-set. Most of the Diaz victims are in a similar state."

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article318852.ece

Only if the fact that they were gone was publicized.

yup. somewhere, don't recall where (st. louis area?), was having a budget crunch. they cut down on the number of cops on the street by 50% without telling anybody. crime rates stayed exactly the same.

I think we should disarm the police.

Then kneel them all down in one big line.

Then show them how fun police brutality is from the other perspective.

Then maybe kill them all.

But that's just me and my crazy ultra-left dreams.

What does hurting and killing cops have to do with ultra-left?

What does hurting and killing cops have to do with ultra-left?

the police are an institution whose primary role is enforcing the privilege of the ruling class and the inequities of class society. we'll be abolishing them come the revolution.

the police are an institution whose primary role is enforcing the privilege of the ruling class and the inequities of class society. we'll be abolishing them come the revolution.

Is that a problem of the cops or how they are employed?

Either way would you just not make cops? why wish to kill and hurt them when you can just work to make sure their authority and power go away...

Is that a problem of the cops or how they are employed?

its a problem of the institution itself and class society as a whole.

the individual cops themselves, as long as they serve that function, are functionally equivalent to enemy troops in a war.

waco: the rules of engagement
good documentary, showing the ineptitude and arrogance of the ATF right from the start

I used to know someone who had been involved in the Ruby Ridge incident. In his words, the FBI "didn't know what the hell they were doing. They even had SWAT teams shooting at each other."

Several FBI agents (and BATF as well, I belive, but I'm not sure), including Richard Rodgers, Christopher Curran, and Lon Horiuchi, were involved in the FUBAR at Ruby Ridge. Horiuchi, the sniper who shot and killed the unarmed Vicky Weaver clutching her infant daughter in her arms. He also initiated shooting at the Branch Davidians while the M728's were supposed to be delivering the CS gas.

i especially like the bit when the branch davidians, during the initial shootout, stopped firing when the ATF ran out of ammo (!) and let them collect their wounded and walk away despite having the drop on them

Oh there were lots of other lovely screw ups. Also, at one point during the initial assault, the Davidians called 911 in an attempt to establish communications. The sheriff, who hadn't be told of the assault, had no way to contact the BATF. At several points in the "seige", there were failures of communications. Beseiging the compound, against the advice of religious scholars who actually understood the Davidians better that the FBI, played right into the End Times theology of the Davidians.

And that's not to mention that the initial grounds for the BATF raid, like Ruby Ridge were specious. Some UPS guy says some people have a bunch of guns is not reasonable grounds for a BATF raid.

see, what i love about this is that instead of admitting that they were wrong and getting rid of this shit like grenades and sometimes tanks, theyre gonna bullshit it all and still use them and fuckup even more people....its amazing how fucked up people get when they get power......GOD BLESS AMERICA

What does hurting and killing cops have to do with ultra-left?

Insane revolutionary communists glorify violence as much as Neo-cons, obviously.

---

And, before this cluster fuck goes on too long, the article does say diversionary grenade. That probably means a flash-bang. It's likely that something went wrong with the grenade, and not that it's use was incorrect.

Insane revolutionary communists glorify violence as much as Neo-cons, obviously.

---

And, before this cluster fuck goes on too long, the article does say diversionary grenade. That probably means a flash-bang. It's likely that something went wrong with the grenade, and not that it's use was incorrect.

On what was a 75 year old mans house ... something got fucked up along the way

On what was a 75 year old mans house ... something got fucked up along the way

I hesitate to point this out, but just because someone is 75 doesn't mean that they aren't capable of being guilty of a crime. Rereading the article, it's clear that they should not have used the grenade in this case, given that casually tossing it through a window when it could strike flammable materials (You know... like... most of the things in a modern house...) was just asking for trouble.

They misused their equiptment. However, this doesn't mean that they shouldn't have access to flash-bangs, just that they should be restricted in where they can use them. Flash-bangs in a counter-terrorist situation, a hostage situation, or in a riot situation are highly valueble tools for the police to prevent harm to people. In a simple warrant situation, not so much.

You guys are pretty harsh.

I hesitate to point this out, but just because someone is 75 doesn't mean that they aren't capable of being guilty of a crime. Rereading the article, it's clear that they should not have used the grenade in this case, given that casually tossing it through a window when it could strike flammable materials (You know... like... most of the things in a modern house...) was just asking for trouble.

They misused their equiptment. However, this doesn't mean that they shouldn't have access to flash-bangs, just that they should be restricted in where they can use them. Flash-bangs in a counter-terrorist situation, a hostage situation, or in a riot situation are highly valueble tools for the police to prevent harm to people. In a simple warrant situation, not so much.

If they had enough information to track down the suspected perpetrator they either should have A) Known that there was no need for flash bangs on this target or B) Done their research before tossing this sort of device in a home where they did not know about who potentialy is going to be there

If they were so un-informed as to who was there they might have wanted to do a bit of research. It was not like the supposed felon was a violent offender ...

If they had enough information to track down the suspected perpetrator they either should have A) Known that there was no need for flash bangs on this target or B) Done their research before tossing this sort of device in a home where they did not know about who potentialy is going to be there

If they were so un-informed as to who was there they might have wanted to do a bit of research. It was not like the supposed felon was a violent offender ...

Reread the second sentence. I agree with you.

Reread the second sentence. I agree with you.

You agreed that it was wrong because of fire safety reasons I was making more of an argument for disproportion of force for the known thread and incomplete threat evaluations ... not arguing per-sey just clarifying my other reasons for disliking this use.

You agreed that it was wrong because of fire safety reasons I was making more of an argument for disproportion of force for the known thread and incomplete threat evaluations ... not arguing per-sey just clarifying my other reasons for disliking this use.

Neither of us knows what the actual threat level was. There is only so much background information that one can collect on the target of a raid without having already been in their home. I do not know if, given the information available to them, they were able to justify not taking precautions.

However, the precaution they took was a bad choice because it destroyed any evidence they might have received, and caused irreperable damage to the home of a citizen.

Rotovia loves cops, and not just because they are currently nailing my arse to the wall and wants to garner enough favour to not anally rape me with a glove-on-a-stick

So there are tons of cops outside your house screaming at you on a megaphone, you don't obey them... a bit of time passes... all of a sudden they throw a grenade into your house and sets it on fire... so you grab your pistol that u had handy for some reason, and you start "shooting the windows".... gimme a break :rolleyes:

next time answer the door

its a problem of the institution itself and class society as a whole.

the individual cops themselves, as long as they serve that function, are functionally equivalent to enemy troops in a war.


Bias-alert!

Alright, I'm the son of an officer whom has served for 28 years, broken nearly every bone in his body, risked himself, and injured himself on countless occassions, to catch criminals, been not only shot at, but shot several times, dragged by a drunk's car after he pulled him over, not to mention the stuff my dad refuses to tell me about.

And guess what? Up until very recently, we would easily pass off as "lower-middle class", which in my area means "dirt-poor". Not only that, but he came from a low-class farming family, with little money. The police force being class-based is complete and total rubbish.

He has done more to protect and serve the community than anybody I could ever know, and I take great offense to anybody whom ever bad mouths police officers.

These cases are extremely rare, and are hardly the norm. They rarely happen, and most cops are NOT the gun-toting, super-cops that are so fun to report about. The good police officers are not good news. Hell, even the ones whom complain about how hard the job is are not even the norm, they're just the loudest of them all. Most officers are perfectly content putting their lives on teh line, with little or no recognition for what they do, to protect the community.

But hey. I guess it is alright to bad mouth all cops, then it is to understand that most cops do not receive the recognition they deserve.

But that's just me.

So there are tons of cops outside your house screaming at you on a megaphone, you don't obey them... a bit of time passes... all of a sudden they throw a grenade into your house and sets it on fire... so you grab your pistol that u had handy for some reason, and you start "shooting the windows".... gimme a break :rolleyes:

next time answer the door

The man was 75 years old with Alzheimer's and likely a hearing problem

Simply not having heard them or understood is a possibility.

The man was 75 years old with Alzheimer's and likely a hearing problem

Simply not having heard them or understood is a possibility.

Indeed. I have no problem with this being a messed up situation, with over zealous cops.

However, I have a huge problem when one of these situations arises, and everyone goes on with the "Cops are teh ebil!!!!111!!!one!" bandwagon. It pisses me off to no end.

Indeed. I have no problem with this being a messed up situation, with over zealous cops.

However, I have a huge problem when one of these situations arises, and everyone goes on with the "Cops are teh ebil!!!!111!!!one!" bandwagon. It pisses me off to no end.

I agree ... I hope you don't think that I am one of those people I am just saying Somewhere along the line, possibly in more then one place SOMEONE fucked up. Weather that be the one that incorrectly used a grenade to the one that decided to use one to the people in charge of gathering information.

I agree ... I hope you don't think that I am one of those people I am just saying Somewhere along the line, possibly in more then one place SOMEONE fucked up. Weather that be the one that incorrectly used a grenade to the one that decided to use one to the people in charge of gathering information.

No, I'm just venting off some steam here. I was really pissed off after the 5 pages of basically cop-bashing, and needed to let out a bit of air. I would say the problem was both in the area of those in gathering information(Bad informants is usually the case), and poor training with the equipment(Which can happen). I wouldn't necessarily attribute this to over-zealousness, just a fairly rare series of accidents, more or less.

Yes, everyone who is not a cop has probably experienced their arrogance. So what! Put a uniform on a person and they look intimidating... they are supposed to. Their presence is supposed to make you think twice before doing something that you know is wrong. Hell this includes your JC Penny security guards. Are they rude? in my personal experience, usually. Again, I think it is the nature of their jobs. That being said, I think it should be made clear that they are not evil power hungry bastards. Some may be... but some politicians want to control the whole world... some are making a good dent in that direction... some stock brokers are this minute dreaming of pulling off the biggest broker scam in history... there will always be bad people out there who want to make the most of every situation for their ow gain and give no thought to how their behaviour effects others. Recognise that first, so this can become a reasonable discussion that may have a chance to influence the thinking of the more rational readers. Shit happens. Cops are human. They make mistakes. They follow orders. They need to be educated about the big mistakes... given the intellectual tools to question the authority of mis-guided superiors. There are problems with the way authority is managed and used... problems with training cops to deal with specific situations appropriately. So when such an event happens perhaps an automatic review of training requirements should be triggered. Mouthing off about how all cops are bad will never make a dif. Write to your local and national authority demanding training reviews, do something positive, take responsibility to do your part to help ensure that such events will happen with less frequency. Think rationally before mouthing off about emotive issues.

“This is not a botched search warrant,” said Gilbert police spokesman Lt. Joe Ruet. “It’s not the wrong house, and it’s a very serious criminal that we’re after.”

If accidentally killing an innocent man and burning his house down doesn't count as 'botched', what does?

What horseshit? They complain as much about their jobs these days as teachers do: hence "the new teachers". (Or did we slip through to a bizarro world where teachers don't constantly complain about lack of respect and low pay when I wasn't looking?). Nobody made them become cops. Nobody makes anyone become a teacher. If it is so horrible compared to every other job in the entire world - in either case, cop or teacher - then do something else.

This whole attitude is emblematic of the 21st century US civil servant mentality. Everyone wants to everyone else to think that what they do is amazing and special even though, by and large, they spend most of their working day fucking around with trivia that is incidental to the original reason why these institutions were set up in the first place. Hell, a sizable number of teachers only have jobs because the government doesn't want to tell the truth about unemployment numbers.

The reality is that civil servants are no more or less than workaday employees: and their bitching about their employment conditions is no more or less noteworthy than the same from guy who makes my sandwiches. The pay and compensation is set by the perception of the employer's - the public - view of the value they add. Nothing more. And they are not 'heroes'. They are not noble and self-sacrificing. They are 9-5 regular working stiffs. And It's silly to claim otherwise, or expect the other 99% of the world to carve out an exception for them because they feel 'entitled'. Doubly so since in the case of the police and the teaching profession great pains are taken to explain to the rest of us all the time just how self sacrificing these individuals actually are.

But god forbid anyone, anywhere, should have to take responsibilty for their decisions. Ever.

And Heaven forefend that anyone should step out of their comfy generalizations long enough to pull his head out of his ass.

Is the sandwich maker ever asked to grow the veggies, slaughter the meat, design the ad campaign or chew a customer's food for them? No.

When teachers can get back to the notion of teaching without interference from moralists, test compaines, members of a ridiculous union (I mean YOU, NEA...), mindless bureaucrats, clueless administrators, unfunded mandates (NCLB, anyone?) overvalued children and parental insanity, then you'll have a point.

Now...give us firearms, and I'll never bother anyone again with any of my feelings about teaching. Heh.

You sound like a crappy teacher. If you don't have a skin, you shouldn't be working with kids.

No. If I don't have a skin, I should be in the critical care unit of my local hospital.

I have plenty of callus for where it's supposed to be and none for empty-headed animal food-trough wipers who speak without knowing a thing about the subject.

You, for example. :D

A surprisingly good way to win the respect of students is to insult them back if they insult you.

Absolutely. It's like hitting them with a taser -- they don't expect it. Turning belligerence around is an art, and a delicate one.

Yeah but you do it in a way that shows skill and unwillingness to back down ... not out of anger which is the impression I am getting from that poster.

You get angry and lash back that is counter productive ... if you can keep it cool and dish it as good as you get it I can see how that would be able to gain respect

Gee, I'm sorry.

If I had but known the poster I'd responded to was a student of mine, I'd have reacted more professionally -- oh, wait, he's not, and this is NSG, not school?

Ah.:rolleyes:

This thread isn't what I thought it would be about.

*walks off*

Edit: Beaten to it. Not surprising.

So there are tons of cops outside your house screaming at you on a megaphone, you don't obey them... a bit of time passes... all of a sudden they throw a grenade into your house and sets it on fire... so you grab your pistol that u had handy for some reason, and you start "shooting the windows".... gimme a break :rolleyes:

next time answer the door

From your post count you don't seem new here, and with that knowledge, you should know most people on this forum would grab one of the dozens of guns they have handy and start shooting for far less than a grenade setting their house on fire.

From your post count you don't seem new here, and with that knowledge, you should know most people on this forum would grab one of the dozens of guns they have handy and start shooting for far less than a grenade setting their house on fire.

That's why police entry teams wear substantially more body armor than the typical patrol officer (who also wears body armor - just not so much).

Gee, I'm sorry.

If I had but known the poster I'd responded to was a student of mine, I'd have reacted more professionally -- oh, wait, he's not, and this is NSG, not school?

Ah.:rolleyes:

Thats fine I was not the one criticizing you I was just pointing out how simply insulting does not necessarily engender respect, rather how you do it is important too

Alright, I'm the son of an officer whom has served for 28 years, broken nearly every bone in his body, risked himself, and injured himself on countless occassions, to catch criminals, been not only shot at, but shot several times, dragged by a drunk's car after he pulled him over, not to mention the stuff my dad refuses to tell me about.


Touching story but i call Bullshit. There are maybe a handful or two of policemen that are shot in the entire country every year. The chance that a single cop has been shot "several times" is less likely then winning the lottery. Policemen are so rarely shot and killed in the line of duty that the Governer of the State, and u.s. Senators show up personally to the burial services and usually The President of the united States sends a message of condolence as well.

Broken every bone in his body? Please. What is he a policeman or Evil Kineval? A good policeman should be able to do his job properly without breaking any bones. Hell ive been dragged by a drunk drivers car and im not even a cop (stupid ex gf lol)

Touching story but i call Bullshit. There are maybe a handful or two of policemen that are shot in the entire country every year. The chance that a single cop has been shot "several times" is less likely then winning the lottery. Policemen are so rarely shot and killed in the line of duty that the Governer of the State, and u.s. Senators show up personally to the burial services and usually The President of the united States sends a message of condolence as well.

Broken every bone in his body? Please. What is he a policeman or Evil Kineval? A good policeman should be able to do his job properly without breaking any bones. Hell ive been dragged by a drunk drivers car and im not even a cop (stupid ex gf lol)


According to the Office of Safety, Health and Working Conditions, Bureau of Labor Statistics, between 1992 and 1997 (the first set of numbers I grabbed online), there were 887 law enforcement fatalities.
http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfar0029.txt

Generally speaking, I find the average street cop isn't a bad guy. But, as seems to be the case in all things, law enfocement follows the Peter Principal.

Just be glad you guys don't live in Japan, where suspects are regularly subjected to very harsh measures to force confessions. (Hint: the high conviction rates in Japan don't stem from good police work...)

According to the Office of Safety, Health and Working Conditions, Bureau of Labor Statistics, between 1992 and 1997 (the first set of numbers I grabbed online), there were 887 law enforcement fatalities.
http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfar0029.txt



I said from gunshot wounds. Those figures include traffic accidents(that virtually ALL occupations suffer the risk of to some small degree in one way or another) and probably heart attacks etc. Id suspect the number of deaths from actual bullet wounds is far far far less. Hence the reason why i have serious doubts to claims of policemen getting shot on multiple occasions. I mean im sure it happens, just like someone has been hit by lightning like 4x but color me skeptical.

I think we should disarm the police.

Then kneel them all down in one big line.

Then show them how fun police brutality is from the other perspective.

Then maybe kill them all.

But that's just me and my crazy ultra-left dreams.

No, I think that's a reasonable thing to do for decades of police brutality. Make sure the teargassed Vietnam protesters get brass knuckles and nightsticks.

It seems to me that as police get equipment to make them safer the public is put at more risk from the cops. I'd rather see the police take risks rather than the civilians. That's what they're paid for.

A Phoenix fire investigator has ruled the fire was accidental because the diversionary grenade landed on a bed and set it on fire, said fire division chief Mike Sandulak.

This was an unfortunate turn of events, nothing more.

They were looking for a suspected Carjacker, a very serious and violent offense. The suspect would most likely be armed with the potential to resist. They had the right to protect themselves in that manner.

Oscar Celaya said his father, who had a .22-caliber revolver, was shooting out the front window so smoke and fire could escape.

Does this bother anyone else?

There seems to be more to the story, and the fact that they're turning into a heavy sob story only proves thusly.

This was an unfortunate turn of events, nothing more.

They were looking for a suspected Carjacker, a very serious and violent offense. The suspect would most likely be armed with the potential to resist. They had the right to protect themselves in that manner.



Does this bother anyone else?

There seems to be more to the story, and the fact that they're turning into a heavy sob story only proves thusly.

“The label says: ‘Warning to not be deployed onto flammable objects,’ ” Sandulak said.
So the cops accidentaly didn't read the label?

So the cops accidentaly didn't read the label?

Yes because they aimed for the bed when they threw it through the window. I don't know about you, but when kicking into a suspects house I'm not exactly concerned about his/her property as much as my life.

Of course in hindsight we can sit here and judge them, but in reality, we probably would have done the same thing. The victims and their family will more than likely recieve a nice settlement out of court, which will cover their losses.

All I can say is: Shit happens.

Yes because they aimed for the bed when they threw it through the window. I don't know about you, but when kicking into a suspects house I'm not exactly concerned about his/her property as much as my life.

Do you really think the bed is the only flammable object in a home? In fact, aren't most of the objects in a home pretty flammable?

Not to mention that this isn't the first house that has burned down as a result of this tactic.

Maybe tactics like this should be reserved for raids where the police have reason to suspect that numerous people will actually be fighting back - rather unusual when you're attacking a family home.

Of course in hindsight we can sit here and judge them, but in reality, we probably would have done the same thing. The victims and their family will more than likely recieve a nice settlement out of court, which will cover their losses.

It is highly unlikely that the family will receive anything at all. I'm looking to find the case again, but the police fairly recently burned down a house this same way and it wasn't even the right house. They through the grenade, busted in, shot the dog, grabbed a completely innocent woman and pulled her out of the house. Her teenage son, tried to save the dog (who was burning to death), failed, and then injured himself jumping out of a second floor window to get away from the fire.

This was the WRONG HOUSE and the courts still ruled that they were entitled to no compensation whatsoever.

It is highly unlikely that the family will receive anything at all. I'm looking to find the case again, but the police fairly recently burned down a house this same way and it wasn't even the right house. They through the grenade, busted in, shot the dog, grabbed a completely innocent woman and pulled her out of the house. Her teenage son, tried to save the dog (who was burning to death), failed, and then injured himself jumping out of a second floor window to get away from the fire.

This was the WRONG HOUSE and the courts still ruled that they were entitled to no compensation whatsoever.

Link please. As for reperations it largely depends on the area.

I'm not defending the grenade (I think it's unecessary) as much as the officers whom used it.

Maybe tactics like this should be reserved for raids where the police have reason to suspect that numerous people will actually be fighting back - rather unusual when you're attacking a family home.

They were going after a violent carjacker, not someone who failed to appear for jury duty.

Also I'm still dubious about the original story. The man shot a window so smoke could escape? The story seems incredibly one sided to me.

Bias-alert!

Alright, I'm the son of an officer whom has served for 28 years, broken nearly every bone in his body, risked himself, and injured himself on countless occassions, to catch criminals, been not only shot at, but shot several times, dragged by a drunk's car after he pulled him over, not to mention the stuff my dad refuses to tell me about.



I'm surprised it took this long.

Nobody is saying that there is no such thing as a good cop. Nobody is saying that events like the one described in the OP happen all the time. The complaints on this thread seem to be broken up into 2 categories:

1)A lack of accountability in the Law Enforcement community when this sort of thing DOES occur
2)General unpleasantness, rudeness and powertripping among members of the police force.

Both of these issues seem to stem from too much comfort in their authority and power. This IS commonplace and does appear to be the majority.

No. If I don't have a skin, I should be in the critical care unit of my local hospital.

I have plenty of callus for where it's supposed to be and none for empty-headed animal food-trough wipers who speak without knowing a thing about the subject.

You, for example. :D

Wow folks, we've finally found someone who actually knows what's in the koolaid (Flavor aid, actually. But koolaids better known), knows what it will do, doesn't want to die, yet drinks it anyway.

Link please.

I said I was trying to find it. Unfortunately, despite it being very prevalent in the news when it first happened, I'm having trouble finding it. I did find a fairly similar case, however, and it's linked below.

As for reperations it largely depends on the area.

It depends on whether or not the police department thinks not paying will make it look bad. The courts have repeatedly ruled that, not only do police not have to do their jobs, but they also aren't responsible for screwing up their jobs. If someone is hurt or loses property due to police using improper tactics or making mistakes, too bad for them.

I'm not defending the grenade (I think it's unecessary) as much as the officers whom used it.

If they use of the grenade was unnecessary, then the officers used unnecessary force. Why defend them for that?

They were going after a violent carjacker, not someone who failed to appear for jury duty.

A violent carjacker. A single person. And a single person who was probably among innocent family members. The police outnumber that one violent person by quite a bit, and endangered the lives and property of everyone else in the house with their unnecessary tactics. Even if he had been the only person in the house, they hardly needed paramilitary tactics to aprehend him.

As for your jury duty comment:
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/Issues/2004-08-05/news/feature_1.html

There's an interesting case. They bust into a home, shooting multiple tear gas canisters (which can also cause fires, although they try to deny it). The house catches on fire. When the family pet tries to escape the flames, the cops force it back into the house, where it burns to death - the entire family can hear it happening. One of the dog's owners tries unsuccessfully to save it, and then escapes the flames himself. The only crime committed by any of the inhabitants of the house? One guy didn't show up for traffic court.

Also I'm still dubious about the original story. The man shot a window so smoke could escape? The story seems incredibly one sided to me.

That's what he says. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if he was shooting at them. If a bunch of men threw a grenade into my house, and I had a weapon on hand, I'd start shooting. Of course, it doesn't change the fact that they used unnecessary force in the first place.

It's kind of like the old woman recently shot in Atlanta. If I were her, I'd shoot anyone who broke into my house too, especially in that neighboorhood.

I think cops should be fine with a nightstick and a handgun. If there raiding a big drugdealing group, they can have teargas grenades and shotguns. But they should never, never, ever have explosives. No exceptions.

Wow folks, we've finally found someone who actually knows what's in the koolaid (Flavor aid, actually. But koolaids better known), knows what it will do, doesn't want to die, yet drinks it anyway.

Wow.

After all I retorted with earlier, this lame (and painfully irrelevant) Jonestown reference is the best you've got?

You're slipping.