NationStates Jolt Archive

Note: To those who have responded to my posts on other threads, I will reply another time as I figured this was important to write though I want to go to sleep.

It is my personal believe that the Qur'an was created in the following way, or a similar way: A person who did not agree with all (or part - most probably part) of Christianity and Judaism grabbed a physical copy of the Christian Bible (which contains the five books collectively known as the Torah in Judaism but which make up only PART of the Old Testament in Christianity - those books being Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) and scribbled out some bits with a pen or a quill, added some extra passages, and modified other passages, then had the result nicely printed into a similar format to the Bible (Chapters with headings, similar style of passage numbers) to trick people into not being Christian or Jewish.

The reason I believe this is because, though the Qur'an and the Bible are different, there are many similarities but with different endings, as though a certain event was there in the Qur'an when it was a Bible (before bits were modified etc.) but changed to suit the author of the Qur'an - eg. in the Bible, Jesus (Isa in the Qur'an) died and rose, in the Qur'an, it just looked like he was crucified. Jesus was born to Mary (Marium in the Qur'an) but was not the son of God, etc.

Here are some similarities (topics/events mentioned/detailed in the Christian Bible, with similar Qur'an passages in brackets - Q means "Qur'an")

Passages about Satan’s refusal to do as God asks (Q: 2:34), Adam eating from the forbidden tree (Q: 2:35-2:36) due to some other being tempting them (Q: 2:36), being sent away (Q: 2:38), Those who do not believe going to hell (Q: 2:39), God’s promise to the children of Israel (Q: 2:40), the word “Verily” used (used often in Qur’an, used in Bible passages such as John 16:20), KJV Bible has words in italics that are there to make sense of a passage; Qur’an has words in (brackets) that appear to be there to make sense of a passage, Baptism (Q: 2:138), Jesus (‘Isa’ in the Qur’an) being born of Mary (‘Marium’ in the Qur’an) (Q: 3:45), Jesus performing miracles AND Jesus being filled with the Holy Spirit (Q; 5:110)...

...this is only a small list from a quick look at the Qur'an. I'm sure there are many more, especially as a friend has told me of how, in a Religious Education class at school, a pupil (who was Christian) was in tears after hearing details of the Qur'an (the pupil got very angry also and bluntly stated something along the lines of "They've destroyed my religion" - "they" meaning Muslims)

I'm sure the time you'll be spending with Soviestan over the next few days will be very enjoyable.

What's your point? Religions borrow (steal) from each other? I'm shocked to hear this, shocked, I say! :rolleyes:

ZOMG copyright infringement!

Quick, someone find Jesus. It's time to sue Mohammed!

Irrefutable evidence there. You make Jesus happy. Ain't Mohammed gonna bleed them copyright shekels now!

*waits for Soviestan*
Taco anyone while we wait?
And anyway,I think it's hardly shocking.
And I put this to you friend:
Which was written first?




(That's not a serious question.)

Every religion in the history of forever "ripped off" another faith. It is why religious texts are valuable from a historical standpoint. They show what influences other cultures and faiths had upon the religion. Islam isn't an exception.

Wow, I'm sure the "I wrote mine first" arguement really detracts from the validity of both of their messages to be kind and charitable to other people.

Every religion in the history of forever "ripped off" another faith. It is why religious texts are valuable from a historical standpoint. They show what influences other cultures and faiths had upon the religion. Islam isn't an exception.

Nor does it make Islam less worthy. I'm not a great fan of Islam, but this is not a big point against them, that the Quran shows influences from the Old and New Testaments.

Well, considering Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same god, the god of Abraham, then I don't consider it a huge surprise that they also share their religious writings. It would be a bit hard for the Koran to talk about Abraham, and the other big players from the Bible, such as Moses and Jesus without mirroring the Bible, at least in part.

a friend has told me of how, in a Religious Education class at school, a pupil (who was Christian) was in tears after hearing details of the Qur'an (the pupil got very angry also and bluntly stated something along the lines of "They've destroyed my religion" - "they" meaning Muslims)

Wow.

That's almost as bad as the time I had to explain to a friend of mine that Islam was a religion. He seemed to be under the impression that Christianity and Judaism were the only religions still existing (and he wasn't too sure about Judaism).

I was going to ask you if you've ever seen stories in the Bible that seem like they were stolen, but it looks as if others have beaten me to it.

Nor does it make Islam less worthy. I'm not a great fan of Islam, but this is not a big point against them, that the Quran shows influences from the Old and New Testaments.

Go figure sense it is supposed to be in part an extension to them.

Islams more of a cheapo cult that nobody bothered to fund creativety

what I would like to know is why God got allot nicer in the new testament, do you think there is a middle testament where God goes on a road trip with hilarious antics :D

Note: To those who have responded to my posts on other threads, I will reply another time as I figured this was important to write though I want to go to sleep.

It is my personal believe that the Qur'an was created in the following way, or a similar way: A person who did not agree with all (or part - most probably part) of Christianity and Judaism grabbed a physical copy of the Christian Bible (which contains the five books collectively known as the Torah in Judaism but which make up only PART of the Old Testament in Christianity - those books being Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) and scribbled out some bits with a pen or a quill, added some extra passages, and modified other passages, then had the result nicely printed into a similar format to the Bible (Chapters with headings, similar style of passage numbers) to trick people into not being Christian or Jewish.

The reason I believe this is because, though the Qur'an and the Bible are different, there are many similarities but with different endings, as though a certain event was there in the Qur'an when it was a Bible (before bits were modified etc.) but changed to suit the author of the Qur'an - eg. in the Bible, Jesus (Isa in the Qur'an) died and rose, in the Qur'an, it just looked like he was crucified. Jesus was born to Mary (Marium in the Qur'an) but was not the son of God, etc.

Here are some similarities (topics/events mentioned/detailed in the Christian Bible, with similar Qur'an passages in brackets - Q means "Qur'an")

Passages about Satan’s refusal to do as God asks (Q: 2:34), Adam eating from the forbidden tree (Q: 2:35-2:36) due to some other being tempting them (Q: 2:36), being sent away (Q: 2:38), Those who do not believe going to hell (Q: 2:39), God’s promise to the children of Israel (Q: 2:40), the word “Verily” used (used often in Qur’an, used in Bible passages such as John 16:20), KJV Bible has words in italics that are there to make sense of a passage; Qur’an has words in (brackets) that appear to be there to make sense of a passage, Baptism (Q: 2:138), Jesus (‘Isa’ in the Qur’an) being born of Mary (‘Marium’ in the Qur’an) (Q: 3:45), Jesus performing miracles AND Jesus being filled with the Holy Spirit (Q; 5:110)...

...this is only a small list from a quick look at the Qur'an. I'm sure there are many more, especially as a friend has told me of how, in a Religious Education class at school, a pupil (who was Christian) was in tears after hearing details of the Qur'an (the pupil got very angry also and bluntly stated something along the lines of "They've destroyed my religion" - "they" meaning Muslims)


The Quran (and all religious texts) were written by man to control the masses.

what I would like to know is why God got allot nicer in the new testament, do you think there is a middle testament where God goes on a road trip with hilarious antics :D

I think God exists backwards through time. So, when the old testament was written, he was actually much older. He was probably bitter about hair loss, diminishing sexual potency, love handles and increased risk of heart failure.

Islams more of a cheapo cult that nobody bothered to fund creativety

like every other religion (I wonder which prehistoric religion was the creative one:confused: )

what I would like to know is why God got allot nicer in the new testament, do you think there is a middle testament where God goes on a road trip with hilarious antics :D
Yeh, It's that "Lord, the Middle World" thingy... trilogy, even.

Islams more of a cheapo cult that nobody bothered to fund creativety

That is a mighty big cult. :sniper:

I think God exists backwards through time. So, when the old testament was written, he was actually much older. He was probably bitter about hair loss, diminishing sexual potency, love handles and increased risk of heart failure.

You might have something there. He'd have a lot less patience with human beings, too.

You might have something there. He'd have a lot less patience with human beings, too.

It also explains how God could be born as Jesus, long after he'd already existed.

Though that means that Jesus then actually died for the sins of people who came before him, not after.

And that right now God isn't even born yet. No wonder things are so messed up lately!

I think God exists backwards through time. So, when the old testament was written, he was actually much older. He was probably bitter about hair loss, diminishing sexual potency, love handles and increased risk of heart failure.

and those bloody kids breaking everything :p

Yeh, It's that "Lord, the Middle World" thingy... trilogy, even.

ring? Gods gay, curious or at least prefers anal sex can I just say to those reading at home you heard it here first

ring? Gods gay, curious or at least prefers anal sex can I just say to those reading at home you heard it here firstNah, man... it's only b'cause they look 80's (http://infohost.nmt.edu/~mrattana/hobbits.jpg), I'm sure.

And why not. To those reading at home, you can tell them I heard it here first.

Passages about Satan’s refusal to do as God asks (Q: 2:34), Adam eating from the forbidden tree (Q: 2:35-2:36) due to some other being tempting them (Q: 2:36), being sent away (Q: 2:38), Those who do not believe going to hell (Q: 2:39), God’s promise to the children of Israel (Q: 2:40)

There are many similarities between Islam and Christianity when it comes to early world history and basic belief about good and evil. I thought this was fairly well known.

the word “Verily” used (used often in Qur’an, used in Bible passages such as John 16:20), KJV Bible has words in italics that are there to make sense of a passage; Qur’an has words in (brackets) that appear to be there to make sense of a passage

That would seem to be much more dependent on the translation you're using than on the actual text. It's about as relavent as pointing out similarities in cover design.

Baptism (Q: 2:138)

The word baptism used to just mean washing (so taking a bath would literally be called baptism). Also, purification by water was a common practice in both religious and secular affairs before either the New Testament or the Koran were written.

Jesus (‘Isa’ in the Qur’an) being born of Mary (‘Marium’ in the Qur’an) (Q: 3:45), Jesus performing miracles AND Jesus being filled with the Holy Spirit (Q; 5:110)...

The difference, of course, is that in Christianity Jesus is said to be God, and God is understood to be three beings in one, whereas in Islam, Jesus is merely a prophet and the idea of a Trinity is considered blasphemous and tantamount to polytheism. The issue of whether or not Jesus was God is also what separates mainstream Christianity from many of the Christian-like cults.

in the beginning there was zoroastrianism...and then christianity...

Note: To those who have responded to my posts on other threads, I will reply another time as I figured this was important to write though I want to go to sleep.

It is my personal believe that the Qur'an was created in the following way, or a similar way: A person who did not agree with all (or part - most probably part) of Christianity and Judaism grabbed a physical copy of the Christian Bible (which contains the five books collectively known as the Torah in Judaism but which make up only PART of the Old Testament in Christianity - those books being Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) and scribbled out some bits with a pen or a quill, added some extra passages, and modified other passages, then had the result nicely printed into a similar format to the Bible (Chapters with headings, similar style of passage numbers) to trick people into not being Christian or Jewish.

The reason I believe this is because, though the Qur'an and the Bible are different, there are many similarities but with different endings, as though a certain event was there in the Qur'an when it was a Bible (before bits were modified etc.) but changed to suit the author of the Qur'an - eg. in the Bible, Jesus (Isa in the Qur'an) died and rose, in the Qur'an, it just looked like he was crucified. Jesus was born to Mary (Marium in the Qur'an) but was not the son of God, etc.

Here are some similarities (topics/events mentioned/detailed in the Christian Bible, with similar Qur'an passages in brackets - Q means "Qur'an")

Passages about Satan’s refusal to do as God asks (Q: 2:34), Adam eating from the forbidden tree (Q: 2:35-2:36) due to some other being tempting them (Q: 2:36), being sent away (Q: 2:38), Those who do not believe going to hell (Q: 2:39), God’s promise to the children of Israel (Q: 2:40), the word “Verily” used (used often in Qur’an, used in Bible passages such as John 16:20), KJV Bible has words in italics that are there to make sense of a passage; Qur’an has words in (brackets) that appear to be there to make sense of a passage, Baptism (Q: 2:138), Jesus (‘Isa’ in the Qur’an) being born of Mary (‘Marium’ in the Qur’an) (Q: 3:45), Jesus performing miracles AND Jesus being filled with the Holy Spirit (Q; 5:110)...

...this is only a small list from a quick look at the Qur'an. I'm sure there are many more, especially as a friend has told me of how, in a Religious Education class at school, a pupil (who was Christian) was in tears after hearing details of the Qur'an (the pupil got very angry also and bluntly stated something along the lines of "They've destroyed my religion" - "they" meaning Muslims)

Well, the Bible was a cheap rip-off of the Torah. In fact, all it is is the Torah with a few more sections. So, by all means of your logic, Christianity stole from Judaism and destroyed their religion.

That aside, most Muslims, if not all, believe that Allah is the same God as the Christian God from the Bible, as Christians believe that their God is one the same as the Jewish God from the Torah.

Note: To those who have responded to my posts on other threads, I will reply another time as I figured this was important to write though I want to go to sleep.

It is my personal believe that the Qur'an was created in the following way, or a similar way: A person who did not agree with all (or part - most probably part) of Christianity and Judaism grabbed a physical copy of the Christian Bible (which contains the five books collectively known as the Torah in Judaism but which make up only PART of the Old Testament in Christianity - those books being Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) and scribbled out some bits with a pen or a quill, added some extra passages, and modified other passages, then had the result nicely printed into a similar format to the Bible (Chapters with headings, similar style of passage numbers) to trick people into not being Christian or Jewish.

The reason I believe this is because, though the Qur'an and the Bible are different, there are many similarities but with different endings, as though a certain event was there in the Qur'an when it was a Bible (before bits were modified etc.) but changed to suit the author of the Qur'an - eg. in the Bible, Jesus (Isa in the Qur'an) died and rose, in the Qur'an, it just looked like he was crucified. Jesus was born to Mary (Marium in the Qur'an) but was not the son of God, etc.

Here are some similarities (topics/events mentioned/detailed in the Christian Bible, with similar Qur'an passages in brackets - Q means "Qur'an")

Passages about Satan’s refusal to do as God asks (Q: 2:34), Adam eating from the forbidden tree (Q: 2:35-2:36) due to some other being tempting them (Q: 2:36), being sent away (Q: 2:38), Those who do not believe going to hell (Q: 2:39), God’s promise to the children of Israel (Q: 2:40), the word “Verily” used (used often in Qur’an, used in Bible passages such as John 16:20), KJV Bible has words in italics that are there to make sense of a passage; Qur’an has words in (brackets) that appear to be there to make sense of a passage, Baptism (Q: 2:138), Jesus (‘Isa’ in the Qur’an) being born of Mary (‘Marium’ in the Qur’an) (Q: 3:45), Jesus performing miracles AND Jesus being filled with the Holy Spirit (Q; 5:110)...

...this is only a small list from a quick look at the Qur'an. I'm sure there are many more, especially as a friend has told me of how, in a Religious Education class at school, a pupil (who was Christian) was in tears after hearing details of the Qur'an (the pupil got very angry also and bluntly stated something along the lines of "They've destroyed my religion" - "they" meaning Muslims)

I have one thing to say...

Who gives a shit?

That aside, most Muslims, if not all, believe that Allah is the same God as the Christian God from the Bible, as Christians believe that their God is one the same as the Jewish God from the Torah.
You lying monster, the one, supreme God is in no way connected to the twisted false Gods of these heretics and infidels.:rolleyes:

Note: To those who have responded to my posts on other threads, I will reply another time as I figured this was important to write though I want to go to sleep.

It is my personal believe that the Qur'an was created in the following way, or a similar way: A person who did not agree with all (or part - most probably part) of Christianity and Judaism grabbed a physical copy of the Christian Bible (which contains the five books collectively known as the Torah in Judaism but which make up only PART of the Old Testament in Christianity - those books being Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) and scribbled out some bits with a pen or a quill, added some extra passages, and modified other passages, then had the result nicely printed into a similar format to the Bible (Chapters with headings, similar style of passage numbers) to trick people into not being Christian or Jewish.

The reason I believe this is because, though the Qur'an and the Bible are different, there are many similarities but with different endings, as though a certain event was there in the Qur'an when it was a Bible (before bits were modified etc.) but changed to suit the author of the Qur'an - eg. in the Bible, Jesus (Isa in the Qur'an) died and rose, in the Qur'an, it just looked like he was crucified. Jesus was born to Mary (Marium in the Qur'an) but was not the son of God, etc.

Here are some similarities (topics/events mentioned/detailed in the Christian Bible, with similar Qur'an passages in brackets - Q means "Qur'an")

Passages about Satan’s refusal to do as God asks (Q: 2:34), Adam eating from the forbidden tree (Q: 2:35-2:36) due to some other being tempting them (Q: 2:36), being sent away (Q: 2:38), Those who do not believe going to hell (Q: 2:39), God’s promise to the children of Israel (Q: 2:40), the word “Verily” used (used often in Qur’an, used in Bible passages such as John 16:20), KJV Bible has words in italics that are there to make sense of a passage; Qur’an has words in (brackets) that appear to be there to make sense of a passage, Baptism (Q: 2:138), Jesus (‘Isa’ in the Qur’an) being born of Mary (‘Marium’ in the Qur’an) (Q: 3:45), Jesus performing miracles AND Jesus being filled with the Holy Spirit (Q; 5:110)...

...this is only a small list from a quick look at the Qur'an. I'm sure there are many more, especially as a friend has told me of how, in a Religious Education class at school, a pupil (who was Christian) was in tears after hearing details of the Qur'an (the pupil got very angry also and bluntly stated something along the lines of "They've destroyed my religion" - "they" meaning Muslims)

no i looked through the part you quoted and still dont see much simlarity between the 2 beyond a quick run through the basic myths that the abrahamic religions hold in common with significant differences. since mohammed came hundreds of years after jesus and claimed common origins its not odd that he should have included these parts.

It's not like "The Bible" is original material anyway. Most of Genesis is lifted from Sumerian/Babylon sources like the epic of Gilgamesh. Much in the same way that ancient Greek religion was derived from BSG.

You lying monster, the one, supreme God is in no way connected to the twisted false Gods of these heretics and infidels.:rolleyes:

Of course, you believe your God isn't connected with theirs, but they believe that their God is the same as your God, only yet another prophet has come to pass around what God is telling him. I don't mean to state whether their belief or yours are true or not, hence the word "believe". I have no real opinion on the matter at all as I am, by all means, an atheist.

It's not like "The Bible" is original material anyway. Most of Genesis is lifted from Sumerian/Babylon sources like the epic of Gilgamesh. Much in the same way that ancient Greek religion was derived from BSG.

I was about to say that I was guessing that BSG stood for something other than Battlestar Galactica, but then I remembered who I was talking to.

You lying monster, the one, supreme God is in no way connected to the twisted false Gods of these heretics and infidels.:rolleyes:

... From your point of view

... From your point of view

Psst. Sarcasm.

I was about to say that I was guessing that BSG stood for something other than Battlestar Galactica, but then I remembered who I was talking to.

I would not trade a drunken Starbuck for all your puny gods.

Of course, you believe your God isn't connected with theirs, but they believe that their God is the same as your God, only yet another prophet has come to pass around what God is telling him. I don't mean to state whether their belief or yours are true or not, hence the word "believe". I have no real opinion on the matter at all as I am, by all means, an atheist.
So am I, but if I didn't say it someone who was serious would.

Psst. Sarcasm.

Seen way too many trolls to be sure and not familiar enough with the poster ... lol sorry I normally catch them

So am I, but if I didn't say it someone who was serious would.

Ohh, sorry. I thought you were serious at first. I thought the rolling eyes was in reference to what I said. Oh well. It might do better to italicize everything or put it in quotation marks for clarity.

This should be fun. Anyone got some spare popcorn and beer?

You can't really "rip something of" when it has already been "Ripped off" look at the the similarity between the roman god called Mithra and Jesus. More than a conincidence methinks

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen048.html

Identical Life Experiences

(1) Mithra was born on December 25th as an offspring of the Sun. Next to the gods Ormuzd and Ahrimanes, Mithra held the highest rank among the gods of ancient Persia. He was represented as a beautiful youth and a Mediator. Reverend J. W. Lake states: "Mithras is spiritual light contending with spiritual darkness, and through his labors the kingdom of darkness shall be lit with heaven's own light; the Eternal will receive all things back into his favor, the world will be redeemed to God. The impure are to be purified, and the evil made good, through the mediation of Mithras, the reconciler of Ormuzd and Ahriman. Mithras is the Good, his name is Love. In relation to the Eternal he is the source of grace, in relation to man he is the life-giver and mediator" (Plato, Philo, and Paul, p. 15).


(2) He was considered a great traveling teacher and masters. He had twelve companions as Jesus had twelve disciples. Mithras also performed miracles.


(3) Mithra was called "the good shepherd,” "the way, the truth and the light,” “redeemer,” “savior,” “Messiah." He was identified with both the lion and the lamb.


(4) The International Encyclopedia states: "Mithras seems to have owed his prominence to the belief that he was the source of life, and could also redeem the souls of the dead into the better world ... The ceremonies included a sort of baptism to remove sins, anointing, and a sacred meal of bread and water, while a consecrated wine, believed to possess wonderful power, played a prominent part."


(5) Chambers Encyclopedia says: "The most important of his many festivals was his birthday, celebrated on the 25th of December, the day subsequently fixed -- against all evidence -- as the birthday of Christ. The worship of Mithras early found its way into Rome, and the mysteries of Mithras, which fell in the spring equinox, were famous even among the many Roman festivals. The ceremonies observed in the initiation to these mysteries -- symbolical of the struggle between Ahriman and Ormuzd (the Good and the Evil) -- were of the most extraordinary and to a certain degree even dangerous character. Baptism and the partaking of a mystical liquid, consisting of flour and water, to be drunk with the utterance of sacred formulas, were among the inauguration acts."


(6) Prof. Franz Cumont, of the University of Ghent, writes as follows concerning the religion of Mithra and the religion of Christ: "The sectaries of the Persian god, like the Christians', purified themselves by baptism, received by a species of confirmation the power necessary to combat the spirit of evil; and expected from a Lord's supper salvation of body and soul. Like the latter, they also held Sunday sacred, and celebrated the birth of the Sun on the 25th of December.... They both preached a categorical system of ethics, regarded asceticism as meritorious and counted among their principal virtues abstinence and continence, renunciation and self-control. Their conceptions of the world and of the destiny of man were similar. They both admitted the existence of a Heaven inhabited by beatified ones, situated in the upper regions, and of a Hell, peopled by demons, situated in the bowels of the earth. They both placed a flood at the beginning of history; they both assigned as the source of their condition, a primitive revelation; they both, finally, believed in the immortality of the soul, in a last judgment, and in a resurrection of the dead, consequent upon a final conflagration of the universe" (The Mysteries of Mithras, pp. 190, 191).


(7) Reverend Charles Biggs stated: "The disciples of Mithra formed an organized church, with a developed hierarchy. They possessed the ideas of Mediation, Atonement, and a Savior, who is human and yet divine, and not only the idea, but a doctrine of the future life. They had a Eucharist, and a Baptism, and other curious analogies might be pointed out between their system and the church of Christ (The Christian Platonists, p. 240).


(8) In the catacombs at Rome was preserved a relic of the old Mithraic worship. It was a picture of the infant Mithra seated in the lap of his virgin mother, while on their knees before him were Persian Magi adoring him and offering gifts.


(9) He was buried in a tomb and after three days he rose again. His resurrection was celebrated every year.


(10) McClintock and Strong wrote: "In modern times Christian writers have been induced to look favorably upon the assertion that some of our ecclesiastical usages (e.g., the institution of the Christmas festival) originated in the cultus of Mithraism. Some writers who refuse to accept the Christian religion as of supernatural origin, have even gone so far as to institute a close comparison with the founder of Christianity; and Dupuis and others, going even beyond this, have not hesitated to pronounce the Gospel simply a branch of Mithraism" (Art. "Mithra").


(11) Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected. His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day." The Mithra religion had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper."


(12) The Christian Father Manes, founder of the heretical sect known as Manicheans, believed that Christ and Mithra were one. His teaching, according to Mosheim, was as follows: "Christ is that glorious intelligence which the Persians called Mithras ... His residence is in the sun" (Ecclesiastical History, 3rd century, Part 2, ch. 5).

"I am a star which goes with thee and shines out of the depths." - Mithraic saying

"I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star." - Jesus, (Rev. 22:16)


Another good site

http://dim.com/~randl/tarsus.htm

Note: To those who have responded to my posts on other threads, I will reply another time as I figured this was important to write though I want to go to sleep.

It is my personal believe that the Qur'an was created in the following way, or a similar way: A person who did not agree with all (or part - most probably part) of Christianity and Judaism grabbed a physical copy of the Christian Bible (which contains the five books collectively known as the Torah in Judaism but which make up only PART of the Old Testament in Christianity - those books being Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) and scribbled out some bits with a pen or a quill, added some extra passages, and modified other passages, then had the result nicely printed into a similar format to the Bible (Chapters with headings, similar style of passage numbers) to trick people into not being Christian or Jewish.

The reason I believe this is because, though the Qur'an and the Bible are different, there are many similarities but with different endings, as though a certain event was there in the Qur'an when it was a Bible (before bits were modified etc.) but changed to suit the author of the Qur'an - eg. in the Bible, Jesus (Isa in the Qur'an) died and rose, in the Qur'an, it just looked like he was crucified. Jesus was born to Mary (Marium in the Qur'an) but was not the son of God, etc.

Here are some similarities (topics/events mentioned/detailed in the Christian Bible, with similar Qur'an passages in brackets - Q means "Qur'an")

Passages about Satan’s refusal to do as God asks (Q: 2:34), Adam eating from the forbidden tree (Q: 2:35-2:36) due to some other being tempting them (Q: 2:36), being sent away (Q: 2:38), Those who do not believe going to hell (Q: 2:39), God’s promise to the children of Israel (Q: 2:40), the word “Verily” used (used often in Qur’an, used in Bible passages such as John 16:20), KJV Bible has words in italics that are there to make sense of a passage; Qur’an has words in (brackets) that appear to be there to make sense of a passage, Baptism (Q: 2:138), Jesus (‘Isa’ in the Qur’an) being born of Mary (‘Marium’ in the Qur’an) (Q: 3:45), Jesus performing miracles AND Jesus being filled with the Holy Spirit (Q; 5:110)...

...this is only a small list from a quick look at the Qur'an. I'm sure there are many more, especially as a friend has told me of how, in a Religious Education class at school, a pupil (who was Christian) was in tears after hearing details of the Qur'an (the pupil got very angry also and bluntly stated something along the lines of "They've destroyed my religion" - "they" meaning Muslims)


I hope you know that many of the stories of the Old Testament were just Babylonian folktales with the names replaced with Hebrew ones. The stories told of Jesus were told of the leaders of lots of contemporary mystery cults.

I refer you to the Bible itself. "There is nothing new under the Sun."

Note: To those who have responded to my posts on other threads, I will reply another time as I figured this was important to write though I want to go to sleep.

It is my personal believe that the Qur'an was created in the following way, or a similar way: A person who did not agree with all (or part - most probably part) of Christianity and Judaism grabbed a physical copy of the Christian Bible (which contains the five books collectively known as the Torah in Judaism but which make up only PART of the Old Testament in Christianity - those books being Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) and scribbled out some bits with a pen or a quill, added some extra passages, and modified other passages, then had the result nicely printed into a similar format to the Bible (Chapters with headings, similar style of passage numbers) to trick people into not being Christian or Jewish.

The reason I believe this is because, though the Qur'an and the Bible are different, there are many similarities but with different endings, as though a certain event was there in the Qur'an when it was a Bible (before bits were modified etc.) but changed to suit the author of the Qur'an - eg. in the Bible, Jesus (Isa in the Qur'an) died and rose, in the Qur'an, it just looked like he was crucified. Jesus was born to Mary (Marium in the Qur'an) but was not the son of God, etc.

Here are some similarities (topics/events mentioned/detailed in the Christian Bible, with similar Qur'an passages in brackets - Q means "Qur'an")

Passages about Satan’s refusal to do as God asks (Q: 2:34), Adam eating from the forbidden tree (Q: 2:35-2:36) due to some other being tempting them (Q: 2:36), being sent away (Q: 2:38), Those who do not believe going to hell (Q: 2:39), God’s promise to the children of Israel (Q: 2:40), the word “Verily” used (used often in Qur’an, used in Bible passages such as John 16:20), KJV Bible has words in italics that are there to make sense of a passage; Qur’an has words in (brackets) that appear to be there to make sense of a passage, Baptism (Q: 2:138), Jesus (‘Isa’ in the Qur’an) being born of Mary (‘Marium’ in the Qur’an) (Q: 3:45), Jesus performing miracles AND Jesus being filled with the Holy Spirit (Q; 5:110)...

...this is only a small list from a quick look at the Qur'an. I'm sure there are many more, especially as a friend has told me of how, in a Religious Education class at school, a pupil (who was Christian) was in tears after hearing details of the Qur'an (the pupil got very angry also and bluntly stated something along the lines of "They've destroyed my religion" - "they" meaning Muslims)

Let me explain this to you.

As Muslims we believe in the God of jews and Christians. We also believe in all prophets of God in the Bible(Adam being the 1st, Jesus being the last with Moses and others in the middle). We believe they all were sent by Allah and carried the message of Allah to their people and they all carried with them miracles. Adam lived along time, Jesus could cure the sick and had no father among other things. However the message was corrupted until Allah sent his last prophet to tell the complete truth and word of Allah. That prophet was Mohammed(pbuh) and he was given the Qur'an from Allah, which was the miracle he was given.

This is why there are similarities, not because the Qur'an is a rip off or anything like that.

Yeah, and the Xtian bible is just the Jewish holy books with an ending tacked on. What's your point?

Yeah, and the Xtian bible is just the Jewish holy books with an ending tacked on. What's your point?

Yes. But that's just because the jews didn't want to buy the whole thing.

to sovietstian or whatever your name is..

just look at your signature!! it already contradicts judaism.

And they (jews and Christians) say, 'none shall ever enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian.' These are wishful beliefs. Say, 'Bring forth your vivid proof if you are right.' The truth of the matter is, whosoever submits himself entirely to Allah and he is a doer of good to others shall have his reward with his lord. They shall have nothing to fear and nothing to grieve at." (2:111-112)-The Holy Qur'an

-- in Judaism, ANYONE who is good can seek a good afterlife. Jews are expected to follow the 613 mitzvot, and others are expected to follow 7.

your signature is proof right there that I SLAM is a false religion!!!!

in ISlam only christians, jews, and muslims can go to heaven. in judaism, anyone can.. pagans, atheists, you name it.

now that i have said that..

islam has a LOT of similarities to different sects of gnosticism. and arabian paganism. mix that, and you have islam.

to sovietstian or whatever your name is..

just look at your signature!! it already contradicts judaism.

And they (jews and Christians) say, 'none shall ever enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian.' These are wishful beliefs. Say, 'Bring forth your vivid proof if you are right.' The truth of the matter is, whosoever submits himself entirely to Allah and he is a doer of good to others shall have his reward with his lord. They shall have nothing to fear and nothing to grieve at." (2:111-112)-The Holy Qur'an

-- in Judaism, ANYONE who is good can seek a good afterlife. Jews are expected to follow the 613 mitzvot, and others are expected to follow 7.

your signature is proof right there that I SLAM is a false religion!!!!
No that is proof that Islam is a different religion from Christianity or Judism... we already knew that

Calling it false implies that it is less correct ... something which you can not actually prove with an un-falsifiable deity in there.

this religion claims to be perfect, and have no contradictions.. yet it clearly does.

homosexuals are HATED and KILLED in islam which makes me hate the religion the most.

As long as we're discussing rip-offs, the Lord's Prayer is almost an exact copy of an Egyptian one.

Our Father, Who art in Heaven, be gracious unto us, O Lord our God, hallowed be Thy Name, and let the remembrance of Thee be glorified in Heaven above and upon earth here below.

Let Thy kingdom reign over us now and forever. The Holy Men of old said remit and forgive unto all men whatsoever they have done unto me. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil thing; for Thine is the kingdom and Thou shalt reign in glory forever and forevermore.

Strikingly similiar.

Note: To those who have responded to my posts on other threads, I will reply another time as I figured this was important to write though I want to go to sleep.

It is my personal believe that the Qur'an was created in the following way, or a similar way: A person who did not agree with all (or part - most probably part) of Christianity and Judaism grabbed a physical copy of the Christian Bible (which contains the five books collectively known as the Torah in Judaism but which make up only PART of the Old Testament in Christianity - those books being Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) and scribbled out some bits with a pen or a quill, added some extra passages, and modified other passages, then had the result nicely printed into a similar format to the Bible (Chapters with headings, similar style of passage numbers) to trick people into not being Christian or Jewish.

The reason I believe this is because, though the Qur'an and the Bible are different, there are many similarities but with different endings, as though a certain event was there in the Qur'an when it was a Bible (before bits were modified etc.) but changed to suit the author of the Qur'an - eg. in the Bible, Jesus (Isa in the Qur'an) died and rose, in the Qur'an, it just looked like he was crucified. Jesus was born to Mary (Marium in the Qur'an) but was not the son of God, etc.

Here are some similarities (topics/events mentioned/detailed in the Christian Bible, with similar Qur'an passages in brackets - Q means "Qur'an")

Passages about Satan’s refusal to do as God asks (Q: 2:34), Adam eating from the forbidden tree (Q: 2:35-2:36) due to some other being tempting them (Q: 2:36), being sent away (Q: 2:38), Those who do not believe going to hell (Q: 2:39), God’s promise to the children of Israel (Q: 2:40), the word “Verily” used (used often in Qur’an, used in Bible passages such as John 16:20), KJV Bible has words in italics that are there to make sense of a passage; Qur’an has words in (brackets) that appear to be there to make sense of a passage, Baptism (Q: 2:138), Jesus (‘Isa’ in the Qur’an) being born of Mary (‘Marium’ in the Qur’an) (Q: 3:45), Jesus performing miracles AND Jesus being filled with the Holy Spirit (Q; 5:110)...

...this is only a small list from a quick look at the Qur'an. I'm sure there are many more, especially as a friend has told me of how, in a Religious Education class at school, a pupil (who was Christian) was in tears after hearing details of the Qur'an (the pupil got very angry also and bluntly stated something along the lines of "They've destroyed my religion" - "they" meaning Muslims)

You aren't serious, are you?

The Hebrew texts were written in Babylon by Hebrew scribes who spent their days copying and recopying Babylonian texts. Unsurprisingly, much of the Hebrew text is almost identical to large swathes of the Babylonian religious text source material, even down to the 'code of laws' material. Much of the rest is 'oral history'.

Judaism claims it's root through one son of Abraham, Islam claims it's root through another... it is hardly surprising they both share common elements.

Jesus reads like an amalgamation of Mithraism and Buddhism. Even the image we use resembles Serapis.

Religion is an evolving entity. Christianity was not the 'first', and will not be the 'last'.

Baha'i is to islam as islam is to christianity as christianity is to judaism is to akahnaton's montheism. not "rip offs" but successive unvailings/installments of, yes, the SAME religeon.

each uniquely revealed through their central figures who honestly and sincerely believed themselves and their words to be what they claimed them to be.

all them may be absolutley right, in the aligorical sense they were intended, or not as the case may be. that i cannot with certainty say. but they ARE all of a piece. one that did NOT begin with christianity, but of and within which it was one of the sequence of pieces. a thousand years from now, not less then a thousand years subsiquent to 1863 of the current calender, we might well look to expect yet another outpouring/chapter of the same.

there are other beliefs, less closely connected to this stem, i feel much closer to, though at the same time less knowledgeable about in any litteral sense.

my gut tells me that yes, there is something big, friendly and nontangable. it also tells me to take with a very large grain of salt what ANY one (or any several, or any organization of any several or ...) claim to know about it with a VERY large grain of salt. it also tells me that the sacredness is in the forrest. NOT in the coerciveness of human society.

the good intentions of these revealers of organized belief ARE good intentions, whatever political expedience may have twisted how they are perceived into channels of litteralist fanatacism.

it is humanity's great misfortune that they have come to be used as excuses for and means of encouraging people to deny the connection between priorities and probabilities, only in which, is there any REAL security.

=^^=
.../\...

Wow.

That's almost as bad as the time I had to explain to a friend of mine that Islam was a religion. He seemed to be under the impression that Christianity and Judaism were the only religions still existing (and he wasn't too sure about Judaism).

She said it because of all the things she heard from the Qur'an, which were almost the same as her religion (Christianity) but modified to suit Islam - eg. Jesus was still a son born to Mary with the help of God, but He was not God's son, Jesus still performed miracles, but not because he was God in human form (or even 'just' God's son), but because "God (Allah in the Qur'an) gave Him permission", etc etc etc

As long as we're discussing rip-offs, the Lord's Prayer is almost an exact copy of an Egyptian one.

Our Father, Who art in Heaven, be gracious unto us, O Lord our God, hallowed be Thy Name, and let the remembrance of Thee be glorified in Heaven above and upon earth here below.

Let Thy kingdom reign over us now and forever. The Holy Men of old said remit and forgive unto all men whatsoever they have done unto me. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil thing; for Thine is the kingdom and Thou shalt reign in glory forever and forevermore.

Strikingly similiar.

well you know the family did move to egypt during that whole slaughter of the innocents thing. maybe he picked it up then.

I seem to remember that the Bible is only one quarter original content. The rest is appears to have been borrowed from another religion.

edit: I really have to stop tab browsing NSG. It can make my posts up to 4 pages late...

She said it because of all the things she heard from the Qur'an, which were almost the same as her religion (Christianity) but modified to suit Islam - eg. Jesus was still a son born to Mary with the help of God, but He was not God's son, Jesus still performed miracles, but not because he was God in human form (or even 'just' God's son), but because "God (Allah in the Qur'an) gave Him permission", etc etc etc

It was still an extremely silly thing to do. The tenets of Islam don't effect her own religion in any way. If she doesn't like what Islam says, then it's probably not for her.

But then, I've never been able to understand religion in anything other than an academic sense.

I'm curious as to what the point of this thread was. Was it to "prove" somehow that Islam is a "false religion" to make yourself feel better about your friend's discomfort? Or was it to try to convert the small herd of Muslims we have on NSG? If it was the first you'll probably have to defend Christianity's "borrowing" of things from Mithraism and Babylonian religions to have any sort of case. If it's the second you're probably doomed from the start. From what I've seen the devout of any religion will ignore or attack anything, no matter how logical or reasonable it is, if they feel that their faith is threatened by it. People will also believe all sorts of absurd things to reinforce their faith, such as the whole "young Earth" theory floating around. Most religious people, in my experience, are perfectly rational and reasonable people until something comes into conflict with whatever belief system they've chosen.

If it was the first you'll probably have to defend Christianity's "borrowing" of things from Mithraism and Babylonian religions to have any sort of case.
Thats the great strength of christianity, next to none of it is original, but it has stolen from so many other that converts will always get a feeling of familiarity that will make transition easier. Its a religion specifically designed over time to maximise conversions.

From what I've seen the devout of any religion will ignore or attack anything, no matter how logical or reasonable it is, if they feel that their faith is threatened by it. People will also believe all sorts of absurd things to reinforce their faith, such as the whole "young Earth" theory floating around.
Thats the great strength of all religion, its true followers can never be pursuaded to accept that they or their beliefs are in any way wrong or illogical.

Note: To those who have responded to my posts on other threads, I will reply another time as I figured this was important to write though I want to go to sleep.

It is my personal believe that the Qur'an was created in the following way, or a similar way: A person who did not agree with all (or part - most probably part) of Christianity and Judaism grabbed a physical copy of the Christian Bible (which contains the five books collectively known as the Torah in Judaism but which make up only PART of the Old Testament in Christianity - those books being Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) and scribbled out some bits with a pen or a quill, added some extra passages, and modified other passages, then had the result nicely printed into a similar format to the Bible (Chapters with headings, similar style of passage numbers) to trick people into not being Christian or Jewish.

The reason I believe this is because, though the Qur'an and the Bible are different, there are many similarities but with different endings, as though a certain event was there in the Qur'an when it was a Bible (before bits were modified etc.) but changed to suit the author of the Qur'an - eg. in the Bible, Jesus (Isa in the Qur'an) died and rose, in the Qur'an, it just looked like he was crucified. Jesus was born to Mary (Marium in the Qur'an) but was not the son of God, etc.

Here are some similarities (topics/events mentioned/detailed in the Christian Bible, with similar Qur'an passages in brackets - Q means "Qur'an")

Passages about Satan’s refusal to do as God asks (Q: 2:34), Adam eating from the forbidden tree (Q: 2:35-2:36) due to some other being tempting them (Q: 2:36), being sent away (Q: 2:38), Those who do not believe going to hell (Q: 2:39), God’s promise to the children of Israel (Q: 2:40), the word “Verily” used (used often in Qur’an, used in Bible passages such as John 16:20), KJV Bible has words in italics that are there to make sense of a passage; Qur’an has words in (brackets) that appear to be there to make sense of a passage, Baptism (Q: 2:138), Jesus (‘Isa’ in the Qur’an) being born of Mary (‘Marium’ in the Qur’an) (Q: 3:45), Jesus performing miracles AND Jesus being filled with the Holy Spirit (Q; 5:110)...

...this is only a small list from a quick look at the Qur'an. I'm sure there are many more, especially as a friend has told me of how, in a Religious Education class at school, a pupil (who was Christian) was in tears after hearing details of the Qur'an (the pupil got very angry also and bluntly stated something along the lines of "They've destroyed my religion" - "they" meaning Muslims)


Islam was not found overnight and it does not claim to be from one branch but from both Judiasm and Christianity (people of the book). Jesus was a Jew who had split with his fellow Jews. Islam follows closely with these other two relgions only with few differences like what you mentioned.

She said it because of all the things she heard from the Qur'an, which were almost the same as her religion (Christianity) but modified to suit Islam - eg. Jesus was still a son born to Mary with the help of God, but He was not God's son, Jesus still performed miracles, but not because he was God in human form (or even 'just' God's son), but because "God (Allah in the Qur'an) gave Him permission", etc etc etc

No, its because Allah gave all his prophets certain miracles to help them spread the word of Allah to their people.

THIS JUST IN! Islam, Christianity, and Judaism may actually be related! Story at 11!

In other news, being immersed in water for long periods of time can lead to feelings of dampness, and the sky frequently appears to be a shade of cerulean...

and let's not forget:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/m00nbeast/watchforfallingcows.jpg

No, its because Allah gave all his prophets certain miracles to help them spread the word of Allah to their people.

You need to read the Qur'an. I wrote the original post after reading through part of it. It claims Allah gave permission to Jesus.

That Mohammed plagiarized from the Bible has been known ever since a Jew read the Koran. Now, as the Bible was written before copyright was invented, I suppose all I can do is take this plagiarism as a compliment.

Though he took from Judaism more than Christianity. For instance, the Mahdi (at least what I know of him - if Soviestan could explain it, that would be appreciated) is more similar to the Jewish Moshiach than the Christian Messiah. Also, the apparent lack of any obsession with the Mahdi is similar to Judaism.

You need to read the Qur'an. I wrote the original post after reading through part of it. It claims Allah gave permission to Jesus.

Permission is sort of implied considering Allah GAVE him such miracles to us to preach to his people.

That Mohammed plagiarized from the Bible has been known ever since a Jew read the Koran. Now, as the Bible was written before copyright was invented, I suppose all I can do is take this plagiarism as a compliment.
He didn't plagiarise. What he did was give the accurate account of what happened, unlike the corrupted bible. Basically the people and events may be the same, but the accurate details and true message is only found in the Qur'an.

Though he took from Judaism more than Christianity.
This may only appear to be the case since both Judaism and Islam put more emphasis on the one God than Christianity which associates the prophet Jesus with Allah.

For instance, the Mahdi (at least what I know of him - if Soviestan could explain it, that would be appreciated) is more similar to the Jewish Moshiach than the Christian Messiah. Also, the apparent lack of any obsession with the Mahdi is similar to Judaism.
I'm not exactly sure about the Moshiach but the Mahdi is someone who will fix unjustices in the last days. Although some dispute the idea of the Madhi altogether and is not a focus in Islam. There should not be any obsession with such a person since all worship and praise should be to Allah and Allah alone.

He didn't plagiarise. What he did was give the accurate account of what happened, unlike the corrupted bible. Basically the people and events may be the same, but the accurate details and true message is only found in the Qur'an.

Rubbish. The Koran is a rip-off of the Bible, with Biblical facts turned into Koranic lies.


This may only appear to be the case since both Judaism and Islam put more emphasis on the one God than Christianity which associates the prophet Jesus with Allah.

Even in the denominations of Christianity that believe in the Trinity, they believe in ONE God, who has previously taken on human form as Jesus. That's not a full explanation, but it's the quickest and easiest explanation.

Rubbish. The Koran is a rip-off of the Bible, with Biblical facts turned into Koranic lies.

Which Bible? Just curious, but which text are you using?

It's not like "The Bible" is original material anyway. Most of Genesis is lifted from Sumerian/Babylon sources like the epic of Gilgamesh. Much in the same way that ancient Greek religion was derived from BSG.

Just about to post the same thing myself.

Rubbish. The Koran is a rip-off of the Bible, with Biblical facts turned into Koranic lies.

And your true intentions are revealed...

OMG!!1 M0hammed downloaded teh b1ble from t3h limewire!!!111!!oneone!!!!1!

OMG!!1 M0hammed downloaded teh b1ble from t3h limewire!!!111!!oneone!!!!1!

Could you translate this into English?

Could you translate this into English?

j00 4r3 t3h n00b!!!11!

Sure, Jesus might have gotten his book out first. But Mohammed had a bigger penis.

THIS THREAD MAKES ME LOL

I mean, come on, the Q'ran being "true" and "accurate"? The Bible (which edition, punk) being "fact"?

This calls for a LOLOCAUST:

LOL

Here endeth the LOLOCAUST.

j00 4r3 t3h n00b!!!11!

Is that a no or do you not speak English?

Is that a no or do you not speak English?

J00 |)0 |\|07 5p33|< 1337!!!1!!! J00 R \/\/33|<!!!1!!!!

Trans: You do not speak 'elite'! You are weak!

THIS THREAD MAKES ME LOL

I mean, come on, the Q'ran being "true" and "accurate"? The Bible (which edition, punk) being "fact"?

This calls for a LOLOCAUST:

LOL

Here endeth the LOLOCAUST.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y239/NuGo1988/Lollercaust.gif

J00 |)0 |\|07 5p33|< 1337!!!1!!! J00 R \/\/33|<!!!1!!!!

Trans: You do not speak 'elite'! You are weak!

Ah thank you. Never mind I am sure they will grow out of it by time they reach puberty.

Ah thank you. Never mind I am sure they will grow out of it by time they reach puberty.

Probably not, as I'm 20. :p

And your true intentions are revealed...

I never claimed I believe in the 'truth' of the Koran. Obviously I don't as it contradicts Christianity. But that doesn't mean I have a problem with islam or people who decide to be muslim - if they wanna make stuff up, I'm not arsed.

I though to be elite you had to able speak Anglo-Saxon and or be in the Civil Service

I though to be elite you had to able speak Anglo-Saxon and or be in the Civil Service

Nah, you have to be a nerd or a geek with two skill points in loserdom. ;)

Here's a newsflash for you:
Every Christian festival is just a rip-off of an older, pagan one.

Will that make you dismiss and deride Christianity as easily as you Islam?

I'll leave you with this thought:
I'm sure there are many more, especially as a friend has told me of how, in a Religious Education class at school, a pupil (who was Pagan) was in tears after hearing details of the Christian Festivals (the pupil got very angry also and bluntly stated something along the lines of "They've destroyed my religion" - "they" meaning Christians)

Two Abrahamic religions have simmilar holy books. I for one am shocked.

...this is only a small list from a quick look at the Qur'an. I'm sure there are many more, especially as a friend has told me of how, in a Religious Education class at school, a pupil (who was Christian) was in tears after hearing details of the Qur'an (the pupil got very angry also and bluntly stated something along the lines of "They've destroyed my religion" - "they" meaning Muslims)
Because we all know:
The best way we can support our argument is by saying that the thing we're arguing against has made a religio emo kid cry.

No further comment, nor proof, is needed!

Is that a no or do you not speak English?
How now, wool-sack, what mutter you?

It's insanity at the highest level to believe that Christianity is it's own religion.

It's paganism, judaism, zoroastrionism(sp?), a bunch of random superstitions that don't quite fit with paganism, the pantheon of greek and roman gods, the ancient law (hammurabi, etc), and pretty much anything else that others could think of.

You're medically crazy, Multi.

I never claimed I believe in the 'truth' of the Koran. Obviously I don't as it contradicts Christianity. But that doesn't mean I have a problem with islam or people who decide to be muslim - if they wanna make stuff up, I'm not arsed.

You realise that's gonna be pretty much how the Jews feel about the 'rip-off' and 'lies' of Christianity, yes?

I never claimed I believe in the 'truth' of the Koran. Obviously I don't as it contradicts Christianity. But that doesn't mean I have a problem with islam or people who decide to be muslim - if they wanna make stuff up, I'm not arsed.

Clearly you do not see the hyprocrisy in that statement.

Rubbish. The Koran is a rip-off of the Bible, with Biblical facts turned into Koranic lies.

I think will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Even in the denominations of Christianity that believe in the Trinity, they believe in ONE God, who has previously taken on human form as Jesus. That's not a full explanation, but it's the quickest and easiest explanation.

Allah does not take other forms, especially man. If you think Jesus died and that he was God, how can God die? It doesn't make sense.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

There is no god but Allah, no other worthy of worship. Mohammed is his messager and his servant.

I think will just have to agree to disagree on this one.


Allah does not take other forms, especially man. If you think Jesus died and that he was God, how can God die? It doesn't make sense.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

There is no god but Allah, no other worthy of worship. Mohammed is his messager and his servant.

He was cool a couple days after he died, though. Crucifixion is nasty. Can knock a deity out for a few days.

Allah does not take other forms, especially man. If you think Jesus died and that he was God, how can God die? It doesn't make sense.
I may have totally missed the boat on this one, but I thought that the Muslim God was another of the all-knowing, all-powerful sorts. If that is the case, then God would have to be able to die, by definition of omnipotence.

I may have totally missed the boat on this one, but I thought that the Muslim God was another of the all-knowing, all-powerful sorts. If that is the case, then God would have to be able to die, by definition of omnipotence.

Allah is all-knowing and all-powerful but he can not die. he does not have human limitations.

islam has a LOT of similarities to different sects of gnosticism. and arabian paganism. mix that, and you have islam.

Prove it to me. Show me the Doctrines of the Pagans and the Doctrines of the Gnostics, and prove it to me.

I will NOT accept it when you say "basically" or try to sum up what the Pagans/Gnostics believe WITHOUT using their "holy" books.

Also, in Islam, all the good people will go to Heaven EVENTUALLY:

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 21:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

The Prophet [Muhammad] said, "When the people of Paradise will enter Paradise and the people of Hell will go to Hell, Allah will order those who have had faith equal to the weight of a grain of mustard seed to be taken out from Hell. So they will be taken out but (by then) they will be blackened (charred). Then they will be put in the river of Haya' (rain) or Hayat (life) (the Narrator is in doubt as to which is the right term), and they will revive like a grain that grows near the bank of a flood channel. Don't you see that it comes out yellow and twisted"

Anyways, there is a simple answer to this whole thread. Allah revealed all 3 books, the Torah, the Christian Bible, and the Qur'an. The Torah and the Christian Bible were corrupted over time, but there is still the truth in there somewhere. Man hasn't had enough time to corrupt it ENOUGH to make it a whole different book, so there will be some similarities and some differences.

Knowing this, Allah could've quoted from his previous books (leading to similar verses). ALSO, know that in the Qur'an, it is CORRECTING the Jews and the Christians (as is clear in the text) which is why all 3 books deal with the same issues.

Allah is all-knowing and all-powerful but he can not die.
If there is something he is unable to do, then he is not omnipotent. By definition.

So can God die, or is God not omnipotent?

If there is something he is unable to do, then he is not omnipotent. By definition.

So can God die, or is God not omnipotent?

Who says He's unable to do it? He chooses not to.

If there is something he is unable to do, then he is not omnipotent. By definition.

So can God die, or is God not omnipotent?
Perhaps what he means is that God will not die, being sufficiently powerful to prevent it from happening.

Perhaps what he means is that God will not die, being sufficiently powerful to prevent it from happening.

yep.

Note: To those who have responded to my posts on other threads, I will reply another time as I figured this was important to write though I want to go to sleep.

It is my personal believe that the Qur'an was created in the following way, or a similar way: A person who did not agree with all (or part - most probably part) of Christianity and Judaism grabbed a physical copy of the Christian Bible (which contains the five books collectively known as the Torah in Judaism but which make up only PART of the Old Testament in Christianity - those books being Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) and scribbled out some bits with a pen or a quill, added some extra passages, and modified other passages, then had the result nicely printed into a similar format to the Bible (Chapters with headings, similar style of passage numbers) to trick people into not being Christian or Jewish.

The reason I believe this is because, though the Qur'an and the Bible are different, there are many similarities but with different endings, as though a certain event was there in the Qur'an when it was a Bible (before bits were modified etc.) but changed to suit the author of the Qur'an - eg. in the Bible, Jesus (Isa in the Qur'an) died and rose, in the Qur'an, it just looked like he was crucified. Jesus was born to Mary (Marium in the Qur'an) but was not the son of God, etc.

Here are some similarities (topics/events mentioned/detailed in the Christian Bible, with similar Qur'an passages in brackets - Q means "Qur'an")

Passages about Satan’s refusal to do as God asks (Q: 2:34), Adam eating from the forbidden tree (Q: 2:35-2:36) due to some other being tempting them (Q: 2:36), being sent away (Q: 2:38), Those who do not believe going to hell (Q: 2:39), God’s promise to the children of Israel (Q: 2:40), the word “Verily” used (used often in Qur’an, used in Bible passages such as John 16:20), KJV Bible has words in italics that are there to make sense of a passage; Qur’an has words in (brackets) that appear to be there to make sense of a passage, Baptism (Q: 2:138), Jesus (‘Isa’ in the Qur’an) being born of Mary (‘Marium’ in the Qur’an) (Q: 3:45), Jesus performing miracles AND Jesus being filled with the Holy Spirit (Q; 5:110)...

...this is only a small list from a quick look at the Qur'an. I'm sure there are many more, especially as a friend has told me of how, in a Religious Education class at school, a pupil (who was Christian) was in tears after hearing details of the Qur'an (the pupil got very angry also and bluntly stated something along the lines of "They've destroyed my religion" - "they" meaning Muslims)

Dude, go jack off.

Dude, go jack off.

That, my friends, is why so many people hate Islam: because they won't be able to do that.

Go figure sense it is supposed to be in part an extension to them.

Well, exactly. I think most Islamic scholars would agree that Islam is meant to complete the sequence that began with Judaism and was furthered by Christ.

Well, exactly. I think most Islamic scholars would agree that Islam is meant to complete the sequence that began with Judaism and was furthered by Christ.

That is exactly the point of today's Islam.

It goes like this:

Islam is the belief in one God in the most strict sense, and to worship Him. Allah continued to make Islam better by sending Prophets to preach Islam to those who knew nothing of it.

Back then, Allah sent Prophets to each and every civilization so that they can worship the One God, but they worshipped differently.

Then, along came Muhammad. Allah decided to make Muhammad the "Warner to the 'Alamin" (Mankind and Jinn (the "other" species). Judaism was the Islam of the Jews. HOWEVER, today's Islam is to be practiced by the whole world, for Allah sent Muhammad to be the Prophet for ALL of mankind, and not just a specific civilization.

Big deal. Just about every existing religion ripped stuff off from a previous religion. And Islam never claimed to be totally original. It freely admits to Chritianity and Judaism being it's forerunners.

Shut up you bitch(kitten)!

All religions on earth were divinely inspired and came directly from God!

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/shahid.html

Shut up you bitch(kitten)!

All religions on earth were divinely inspired and came directly from God!

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/shahid.html

Impossible since Buddhists don't even believe in a god, and Scientology is too dumb to have been made by God.

Shut up you bitch(kitten)!

All religions on earth were divinely inspired and came directly from God!

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/shahid.html:D
Interesting. Though admitedly I just scanned it, I bookmarked it for later perusal.

The difference, of course, is that in Christianity Jesus is said to be God, and God is understood to be three beings in one, whereas in Islam, Jesus is merely a prophet and the idea of a Trinity is considered blasphemous and tantamount to polytheism. The issue of whether or not Jesus was God is also what separates mainstream Christianity from many of the Christian-like cults.

That is rather strange. Muslims believe that Jesus was a sinless prophet of God, but deny that he was the Son of God. Therefore they must believe that he was lying, which would be a sin. Also, if a prophet is not delivering the message that God intended, then he wouldn't be much of a prophet. Why does the Koran deny the teachings of the Bible if they think that both came from the same God? The NT doesn't deny the OT, but rather cites its prophecies as a source of authority.

Impossible since Buddhists don't even believe in a god, and Scientology is too dumb to have been made by God.

I was being sarcastic lol!

Read the article. It talks all about how Byzantium helped shape the Muslim/Arab identity.

Note: To those who have responded to my posts on other threads, I will reply another time as I figured this was important to write though I want to go to sleep.

It is my personal believe that the Qur'an was created in the following way, or a similar way: A person who did not agree with all (or part - most probably part) of Christianity and Judaism grabbed a physical copy of the Christian Bible (which contains the five books collectively known as the Torah in Judaism but which make up only PART of the Old Testament in Christianity - those books being Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) and scribbled out some bits with a pen or a quill, added some extra passages, and modified other passages, then had the result nicely printed into a similar format to the Bible (Chapters with headings, similar style of passage numbers) to trick people into not being Christian or Jewish.

The reason I believe this is because, though the Qur'an and the Bible are different, there are many similarities but with different endings, as though a certain event was there in the Qur'an when it was a Bible (before bits were modified etc.) but changed to suit the author of the Qur'an - eg. in the Bible, Jesus (Isa in the Qur'an) died and rose, in the Qur'an, it just looked like he was crucified. Jesus was born to Mary (Marium in the Qur'an) but was not the son of God, etc.

Here are some similarities (topics/events mentioned/detailed in the Christian Bible, with similar Qur'an passages in brackets - Q means "Qur'an")

Passages about Satan’s refusal to do as God asks (Q: 2:34), Adam eating from the forbidden tree (Q: 2:35-2:36) due to some other being tempting them (Q: 2:36), being sent away (Q: 2:38), Those who do not believe going to hell (Q: 2:39), God’s promise to the children of Israel (Q: 2:40), the word “Verily” used (used often in Qur’an, used in Bible passages such as John 16:20), KJV Bible has words in italics that are there to make sense of a passage; Qur’an has words in (brackets) that appear to be there to make sense of a passage, Baptism (Q: 2:138), Jesus (‘Isa’ in the Qur’an) being born of Mary (‘Marium’ in the Qur’an) (Q: 3:45), Jesus performing miracles AND Jesus being filled with the Holy Spirit (Q; 5:110)...

...this is only a small list from a quick look at the Qur'an. I'm sure there are many more, especially as a friend has told me of how, in a Religious Education class at school, a pupil (who was Christian) was in tears after hearing details of the Qur'an (the pupil got very angry also and bluntly stated something along the lines of "They've destroyed my religion" - "they" meaning Muslims)

*points out the obvious, mainly that Christianity, by this definition 'ripped off' Judaism*

Impossible since Buddhists don't even believe in a god, and Scientology is too dumb to have been made by God.

most buddhist do believe in at least one god. they just dont have any official gods.

You can practice Buddhism alongside any other religion. But back to Islam.

All religions borrow from each other, and way too often its due to geopolitics and which Divine Emperor is lording over your very soul at the time.

That is rather strange. Muslims believe that Jesus was a sinless prophet of God, but deny that he was the Son of God. Therefore they must believe that he was lying, which would be a sin. Also, if a prophet is not delivering the message that God intended, then he wouldn't be much of a prophet. Why does the Koran deny the teachings of the Bible if they think that both came from the same God? The NT doesn't deny the OT, but rather cites its prophecies as a source of authority.

He never claimed to be the son of God. Like I said, the Bible is corrupted.

If a Prophet delivered another message besides the one revealed to him/her, he/she wouldn't be a prophet because in the Qur'an, Allah says that He'll reveal His revelations to someone else.

The Qur'an denies the teachings of the Bible because the Bible is corrupt. The OT doesn't deny the NT because the NT didn't even exist yet. The NT denies the OT, yet supports it at the same time (Paul).

I was being sarcastic lol!

Oh, ok. lol

An excerpt from this link:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/shahid.html

I urge everyone to read the above link in its entirety.

The Arab Self-lmage

The significance of two ecclesiastical historians, Sozomen and Theodoret, is immense for the Byantine perception of the Arabs in the fifth century. In addition to the improved image that their works provide, they also, especially Theodoret, have preserved data on the Arabs which strongly suggest that the Arabs of this period perceived themselves as descendants of Ishmael. Whether this perception was indigenous among the Arabs or adventitious, having reached them from the Pentateuch either directly through the spread of Judaism in Arabia or mediated through the Christian mission, is not entirely clear. Its reality, however, is clear and certain, and the idiom of Theodoret even suggests that their perception was mixed with pride in the fact of their descent from Ishmael.

This is the important new element that appears in the fifth century and adds a second mirror to the one that reflects the Byantine perception of the Arabs. In this new mirror, Ishmael is rehabilitated. He is no longer a figure that embarrasses the Arabs through certain biblical associations but a revered ancestor of whom they are proud. This image became a most important element in Arab religious life in the seventh century, which witnessed an even more complete rehabilitaion of Ishmael. In the Koran, Ishmael appears not as the pater eponymous of the Arabs but as the son of the First Patriacrh; Ahraham, and a prophet. The precious passage in the Historia Religiosa of Theodoret proves beyond doubt that the eponymate of Ishmael is rooted in the pre-lslamic Arab past and that it goes back to at least the fifth century.

Note: To those who have responded to my posts on other threads, I will reply another time as I figured this was important to write though I want to go to sleep.

It is my personal believe that the Qur'an was created in the following way, or a similar way: A person who did not agree with all (or part - most probably part) of Christianity and Judaism grabbed a physical copy of the Christian Bible (which contains the five books collectively known as the Torah in Judaism but which make up only PART of the Old Testament in Christianity - those books being Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) and scribbled out some bits with a pen or a quill, added some extra passages, and modified other passages, then had the result nicely printed into a similar format to the Bible (Chapters with headings, similar style of passage numbers) to trick people into not being Christian or Jewish.

The reason I believe this is because, though the Qur'an and the Bible are different, there are many similarities but with different endings, as though a certain event was there in the Qur'an when it was a Bible (before bits were modified etc.) but changed to suit the author of the Qur'an - eg. in the Bible, Jesus (Isa in the Qur'an) died and rose, in the Qur'an, it just looked like he was crucified. Jesus was born to Mary (Marium in the Qur'an) but was not the son of God, etc.

Here are some similarities (topics/events mentioned/detailed in the Christian Bible, with similar Qur'an passages in brackets - Q means "Qur'an")

Passages about Satan’s refusal to do as God asks (Q: 2:34), Adam eating from the forbidden tree (Q: 2:35-2:36) due to some other being tempting them (Q: 2:36), being sent away (Q: 2:38), Those who do not believe going to hell (Q: 2:39), God’s promise to the children of Israel (Q: 2:40), the word “Verily” used (used often in Qur’an, used in Bible passages such as John 16:20), KJV Bible has words in italics that are there to make sense of a passage; Qur’an has words in (brackets) that appear to be there to make sense of a passage, Baptism (Q: 2:138), Jesus (‘Isa’ in the Qur’an) being born of Mary (‘Marium’ in the Qur’an) (Q: 3:45), Jesus performing miracles AND Jesus being filled with the Holy Spirit (Q; 5:110)...

...this is only a small list from a quick look at the Qur'an. I'm sure there are many more, especially as a friend has told me of how, in a Religious Education class at school, a pupil (who was Christian) was in tears after hearing details of the Qur'an (the pupil got very angry also and bluntly stated something along the lines of "They've destroyed my religion" - "they" meaning Muslims)

All religions (save Christianity) are the perversions of God's revelation at one time or another. Islam is just a later one.

All religions (save Christianity) are the perversions of God's revelation at one time or another. Islam is just a later one.

You come off as a little fanatical. This is not the impression you want to give on NSG.

You come off as a little fanatical. This is not the impression you want to give on NSG.

Oh, hush. I've already slit my throat, so might as well be honest.

Oh, hush. I've already slit my throat, so might as well be honest.

lol, it's true, you have slit your throat.

Anyway, I think the argument of the original poster has been defeated.

Note: To those who have responded to my posts on other threads, I will reply another time as I figured this was important to write though I want to go to sleep.

It is my personal believe that the Qur'an was created in the following way, or a similar way: A person who did not agree with all (or part - most probably part) of Christianity and Judaism grabbed a physical copy of the Christian Bible (which contains the five books collectively known as the Torah in Judaism but which make up only PART of the Old Testament in Christianity - those books being Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) and scribbled out some bits with a pen or a quill, added some extra passages, and modified other passages, then had the result nicely printed into a similar format to the Bible (Chapters with headings, similar style of passage numbers) to trick people into not being Christian or Jewish.

The reason I believe this is because, though the Qur'an and the Bible are different, there are many similarities but with different endings, as though a certain event was there in the Qur'an when it was a Bible (before bits were modified etc.) but changed to suit the author of the Qur'an - eg. in the Bible, Jesus (Isa in the Qur'an) died and rose, in the Qur'an, it just looked like he was crucified. Jesus was born to Mary (Marium in the Qur'an) but was not the son of God, etc.

Here are some similarities (topics/events mentioned/detailed in the Christian Bible, with similar Qur'an passages in brackets - Q means "Qur'an")

Passages about Satan’s refusal to do as God asks (Q: 2:34), Adam eating from the forbidden tree (Q: 2:35-2:36) due to some other being tempting them (Q: 2:36), being sent away (Q: 2:38), Those who do not believe going to hell (Q: 2:39), God’s promise to the children of Israel (Q: 2:40), the word “Verily” used (used often in Qur’an, used in Bible passages such as John 16:20), KJV Bible has words in italics that are there to make sense of a passage; Qur’an has words in (brackets) that appear to be there to make sense of a passage, Baptism (Q: 2:138), Jesus (‘Isa’ in the Qur’an) being born of Mary (‘Marium’ in the Qur’an) (Q: 3:45), Jesus performing miracles AND Jesus being filled with the Holy Spirit (Q; 5:110)...

...this is only a small list from a quick look at the Qur'an. I'm sure there are many more, especially as a friend has told me of how, in a Religious Education class at school, a pupil (who was Christian) was in tears after hearing details of the Qur'an (the pupil got very angry also and bluntly stated something along the lines of "They've destroyed my religion" - "they" meaning Muslims)


Uh, yeah, and with any amount of research, you'll also find that the Bible is a rip-off of the Torah, using the exact same strategy you mentioned here about Al-Quran, and go even further back, you'll find that the "Jews" never even believed in an evil being that controlled an underworld, Hell, before coming in contact with the near extinct religion, Zoroastrianism.

There are a lot more things here that I won't waste my time typing because it'll just draw a lot of problems from religious extremists, most likely christians, because they're usually anal over anything, for example, "Oh my God, The Bible doesn't have it's own special section in the Bookstore!" Yes, I've heard people complain and refuse to shop at a bookstore because of this. BUT....

To make a long story short, I'm sick and tired of people half assing their research, finding one tiny bit of information, and using it against one tiny sect of an issue. Spend more than twenty minutes researching something, so you don't make a complete ass of yourself.

Thanks.

...this is only a small list from a quick look at the Qur'an. I'm sure there are many more, especially as a friend has told me of how, in a Religious Education class at school, a pupil (who was Christian) was in tears after hearing details of the Qur'an (the pupil got very angry also and bluntly stated something along the lines of "They've destroyed my religion" - "they" meaning Muslims)

Oh, I apologize. I didn't notice this the first time through. I originally believed that you only did very little research. Now I realize that you did absolutely no research. You heard this from a friend, who is angry with a religion for destroying his religion, since obviously, according to the "correct" religion, Christianity, a false religion has the power to destroy the true Word. /sarcasm, because he went to a class taught by a biased teacher.

Good job.

/pissed

To make a long story short, I'm sick and tired of people half assing their research, finding one tiny bit of information, and using it against one tiny sect of an issue. Spend more than twenty minutes researching something, so you don't make a complete ass of yourself.
Welcome to NSGeneral, you're gonna be sick a lot.

Multiland:

www.religioustolerance.org

Go there. NOW.

in the beginning there was zoroastrianism...and then christianity...

Correction: In the beginning, there was Zoroastrianism, then modern Judaism, then Christianity.

Multiland:

www.religioustolerance.org

Go there. NOW.

I didn't like the site from the first page.

Taken from www.religioustolerance.org: To accept all religions as equally true.

That goes right back to not doing any research. Yeah, let's not study at all, and just assume that everyone is right, and everyone is telling the truth, all the time.

Come on guys, surely you're smarter than this.

Sure. I mean they're similar, so obviously they copied your religion.

Or you could take their explanation - they are similar because it's the same damned God, and Mohammed is simply the last in a line of prophets including both Moses and Jesus.

Even if it is, the Bible was a rip-off of other stories, myths and legends. Jesus is based on an Egyptian character.

Jesus is based on an Egyptian character.

The Christian version of Jesus may be related to an ancient Roman cult (that is nearly 100% similar to Christianity, Constantine may have practiced this) OR could've been related to Krishna of Hinduism.

Correction: In the beginning, there was Zoroastrianism, then modern Judaism, then Christianity.

Correction: In the beginning, there was Hinduism, then Zoroastrianism, then Judaism, then Christianity, then Islam (from a secular point of view).

In my opinion, Islam came first, but meh.

Anyone ever notice that the middle word of Zoroastria is 'roast'?

now I'm hungry.