NationStates Jolt Archive

I beg to differ.
Then you know nothing of the Sermon on the Mount?

Then you know nothing of the Sermon on the Mount?

or maybe it is you who are not familiar with the "Sermon on Mount"......

first here is a link to check out.....

http://www.bible.ca/ef/topical-the-bible-and-capital-punishment.htm

the following comes from the above link, you could always verify it through the Bible, the versuses are in the link and the following:

Immediately after giving the "thou shalt not kill" precept, the following two chapters list at least ten offenses punishable by death: all forms of murder, 21:12; (Lev. 24:17; Num. 35:16-21); striking, cursing parents, 21:15,17; (Deut. 19:19-21); kidnapping, 21:16; slaying an unborn child, 21:23; owner of an animal that kills, 21:29; sorcery 22:18; (Lev. 20:27; Deut. 13:1-5); bestiality, 22:19; idolater, 22:20; (Lev. 20:1-5; Deut. 13:6-9; 17:2-7); abducting people for slavery, 21:16; (Deut. 24:7); Sabbath breaking, Ex. 31:14; 35:2; Num. 15:32-36.

The Bible also tells you to follow the laws of your government. Last I checked Capital Punishment is in the Federal Laws and numerous states of America and also is in Iraq's laws.

Why is it that the Americans on this board who are clamouring for Saddam's execution cannot see the reality of this situation? Especially the ones that call themselves Christians.

Murder demands the death penalty. As a Christian I am bound by the bible, and it does say murderers get the death penalty-an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.

CH,

In all our spirited discussions you have a view of christians that suprises me. You seem to think that Christians are supposed to be "Oh! Kumbaya!" and so pacifistic that we shouldn't advocate justice, we shouldn't fight wars, shouldn't oppose abortion, etc. What gives?

or maybe it is you who are not familiar with the "Sermon on Mount"......

first here is a link to check out.....

http://www.bible.ca/ef/topical-the-bible-and-capital-punishment.htm

the following comes from the above link, you could always verify it through the Bible, the versuses are in the link and the following:

Immediately after giving the "thou shalt not kill" precept, the following two chapters list at least ten offenses punishable by death: all forms of murder, 21:12; (Lev. 24:17; Num. 35:16-21); striking, cursing parents, 21:15,17; (Deut. 19:19-21); kidnapping, 21:16; slaying an unborn child, 21:23; owner of an animal that kills, 21:29; sorcery 22:18; (Lev. 20:27; Deut. 13:1-5); bestiality, 22:19; idolater, 22:20; (Lev. 20:1-5; Deut. 13:6-9; 17:2-7); abducting people for slavery, 21:16; (Deut. 24:7); Sabbath breaking, Ex. 31:14; 35:2; Num. 15:32-36.

KB,

Why didn't you list the New Testament verses that support the death penalty?

OR wait a second-perhaps we should be using the Koran, since it is the defacto religion of Iraq.

KB what does your sig say?

The Bible also tells you to follow the laws of your government. Last I checked Capital Punishment is in the Federal Laws of America and also is in Iraq's laws.

Doesn't sound like good advice. What if the laws of the government decided to ban religion?

Umm, ditch the internation war crimes. The Iraqis have already taken care of it themselves. If the iraqis wanted to brutally flog him and crucify him, it's their choice. The man was a monster and deserves whatever treatment he gets here and the hell that awaits him in the next one.

ETA: In case it hasn't been made known to you, He was found GUILTY and sentenced to DEATH, Not as you would like to think by the American imperialist Bushco dogs from wall street, but by Iraqis.

There are things that are never okay
there are actions that are not tolerated even though the perpetrator
may have some claim to authority.

IE husbands may not beat up or rape their wives or children

When something is wrong it remains wrong no matter who it is being done to.
Saddam was evil for being a murderous torturing sod
A new era in Iraq's history will not be being ushered in by Saddam being
tortured or murdered.

The court in which he was tried only exists due to the American invasion
an invasion that has brought with it a continuance and intensification
of the crimes for which Saddam was being tried.
Tortures, brutal murders, secret prisons, rapes.
In that court case questions are raised about the justice it is capable of bringing
where defence lawyers were assassinated
and in which the judge was replaced for being too favourable to Saddam

Instead of being tried in the court he should have been tried in for international war crimes, where a proper and above board trial could
have been held before finding him guilty.

Why the US failed to hand him over to the appropriate court is of course
anyone's guess.
According to the Washington Post, the CIA began in 1984 secretly to give Iraq intelligence that Iraq uses to "calibrate" its mustard gas attacks on Iranian troops. In August, the CIA establishes a direct Washington-Baghdad intelligence link, and for 18 months, starting in early 1985, the CIA provided Iraq with "data from sensitive U.S. satellite reconnaissance photography...to assist Iraqi bombing raids." The Post’s source said that this data was essential to Iraq’s war effort.
# The United States re-established full diplomatic ties with Iraq on 26 November,[18] just over a year after Iraq’s first well-publicized CW use and only 8 months after the UN and U.S. reported that Iraq used CWs on Iranian troops.
# The U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee sent a team to Turkey to speak to Iraqi Kurdish refugees and assess reports that Iraq "was using chemical weapons on its Kurdish population."[29] This report reaffirmed that between 1984 and 1988 "Iraq repeatedly and effectively used poison gas on Iran," the UN missions’ findings, and the chemical attack on Halabja that left an estimated 4,000 people dead.[30]
# Following the Halabja attack and Iraq’s August CW offensive against Iraqi Kurds, the U.S. Senate unanimously passed on 8 September the "Prevention of Genocide Act of 1988" the day after it is introduced.[31] The act cuts off from Iraq U.S. loans, military and non-military assistance, credits, credit guarantees, items subject to export controls, and U.S. imports of Iraqi oil.[32]
# Immediately after the bill’s passage the Reagan Administration announced its opposition to the bill,[33] and SD spokesman Charles Redman called the bill "premature".[34] The Administration works with House opponents to a House companion bill, and after numerous legislation compromises and end-of-session haggling, the Senate bill died "on the last day of the legislative session".[35]
# According to a 15 September news report, Reagan Administration officials stated that the U.S. intercepted Iraqi military communications marking Iraq’s CW attacks on Kurds.[36]
# U.S. intelligence reported in 1991 that the U.S. helicopters sold to Iraq in 1983 were used in 1988 to spray Kurds with chemicals.[37]
# "Reagan administration records show that between September and December 1988, 65 licenses were granted for dual-use technology exports. This averages out as an annual rate of 260 licenses, more than double the rate for January through August 1988.


Of course as a neocon fellow traveller you will be delighted to note
that the UN was effectively toothless on the Iran - Iraq war and the
security council failed to issue any sanction against Iraq
or any resolution specifically identifying Iraq as being in breach of international law

The Security Council could only condemn Iraq by name for using chemical weapons through non-binding Presidential statements, over which permanent members of the Security Council do not have an individual veto. On 21 March 1986, the Security Council President, making a "declaration" and "speaking on behalf of the Security Council," stated that the Council members are "profoundly concerned by the unanimous conclusion of the specialists that chemical weapons on many occasions have been used by Iraqi forces against Iranian troops...[and] the members of the Council strongly condemn this continued use of chemical weapons in clear violation of the Geneva Protocol of 1925 which prohibits the use in war of chemical weapons".[51] The US voted against the issuance of this statement, and the UK, Australia, France and Denmark abstained. However, the concurring votes of the other ten members of the Security Council ensured that this statement constituted the first criticism of Iraq by the Security Council. A similar Presidential statement was made on 14 May 1987, which noted that the Council was "deeply dismayed" about the CW use against Iranian forces and civilians.

Can't help but wonder who might actually have vetoed potential security council resolutions. It's a mystery to which there are few clues.

or maybe it is you who are not familiar with the "Sermon on Mount"......

first here is a link to check out.....

http://www.bible.ca/ef/topical-the-bible-and-capital-punishment.htm

the following comes from the above link, you could always verify it through the Bible, the versuses are in the link and the following:

Immediately after giving the "thou shalt not kill" precept, the following two chapters list at least ten offenses punishable by death: all forms of murder, 21:12; (Lev. 24:17; Num. 35:16-21); striking, cursing parents, 21:15,17; (Deut. 19:19-21); kidnapping, 21:16; slaying an unborn child, 21:23; owner of an animal that kills, 21:29; sorcery 22:18; (Lev. 20:27; Deut. 13:1-5); bestiality, 22:19; idolater, 22:20; (Lev. 20:1-5; Deut. 13:6-9; 17:2-7); abducting people for slavery, 21:16; (Deut. 24:7); Sabbath breaking, Ex. 31:14; 35:2; Num. 15:32-36.


You are okay with the death penalty being applied to sabbath breaking
and or cursing your parents?

Have you ever broken the sabbath or cursed your parents
because if you have we can stop having this discussion while
the forces of justice deal with you.

KB,

Why didn't you list the New Testament verses that support the death penalty?

OR wait a second-perhaps we should be using the Koran, since it is the defacto religion of Iraq.

KB what does your sig say?

I figured it doesn't really matter where I show proof in regarding capital punishment, Some on NSG will disregard it no matter what.

We could be using the Koran I'm not an expert on it but I believe it also advocates the grounds of Capital Punishment.

It's a verse from the hymn "Victory in Jesus" then it goes on to say "May God Bless us All" then finally it states "I love the United States of America. see below for exact......

There are things that are never okay
there are actions that are not tolerated even though the perpetrator
may have some claim to authority.

IE husbands may not beat up or rape their wives or children

When something is wrong it remains wrong no matter who it is being done to.
Saddam was evil for being a murderous torturing sod
A new era in Iraq's history will not be being ushered in by Saddam being
tortured or murdered.

The court in which he was tried only exists due to the American invasion
an invasion that has brought with it a continuance and intensification
of the crimes for which Saddam was being tried.
Tortures, brutal murders, secret prisons, rapes.
In that court case questions are raised about the justice it is capable of bringing
where defence lawyers were assassinated
and in which the judge was replaced for being too favourable to Saddam

SNIP



You are the copy and paste king.

The international tribunals you speak of came after the BRUTAL IMPERIALISTIC BUSHCO WORLD WAR II!!!111! IT CANNOT have any leigitimacy111!!!!11!!!! OMG!

So they are illegimate, yes? But they were formed after an illegitimate war of imperialist aggression against peaceful japan and germany!

The Iraq people chose to execute their former despot. Are you not happy? God gave governments the power of life and death in administering law and order.

On a sidenote, a basic human right is self defense. Basically, you have the right to kill an attacker.

You are okay with the death penalty being applied to sabbath breaking
and or cursing your parents?

Have you ever broken the sabbath or cursed your parents
because if you have we can stop having this discussion while
the forces of justice deal with you.

No I have not cursed my parents. Even when I was a rebel of a child I never cursed nor disrespected my parents. This is what seems to be a problem with a lot of the youth today.

You are okay with the death penalty being applied to sabbath breaking
and or cursing your parents?

Have you ever broken the sabbath or cursed your parents
because if you have we can stop having this discussion while
the forces of justice deal with you.


Is he under Jewish Sabbatical law?

Somehow I think not.

Here are a couple for you:

"Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy"

"Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God"

And we are told to obey the government that is in place over us. That means Saddam is at the mercy of the government and the government sentenced him to death.

No I have not cursed my parents. Even when I was a rebel of a child I never cursed nor disrespected my parents. This is what seems to be a problem with a lot of the youth today.

Nothing a good flogging won't fix.

Murder demands the death penalty. As a Christian I am bound by the bible, and it does say murderers get the death penalty-an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.

CH,

In all our spirited discussions you have a view of christians that suprises me. You seem to think that Christians are supposed to be "Oh! Kumbaya!" and so pacifistic that we shouldn't advocate justice, we shouldn't fight wars, shouldn't oppose abortion, etc. What gives?
You seem to have your own mind about God's will for us and I do too. Perhaps the New Testament deserves a better understanding amongst those who believe?

http://watkins.gospelcom.net/capital.htm

I've searched the New Testament for justification for humanly-imposed capital punishment. God's punishment of unbelievers at Judgment Day is certainly capital! (Revelation 20:11-15))

What I do find, however, are many passages that warn against judging others, not showing mercy, and mistreating prisoners (Matthew 5:7, 44; 7:2; 25:39-40, 44-45).

Admittedly, it is a controversial issue. (And I could be wrong!) But on those issues where there is such disagreement, shouldn't we error on the side of life rather than death?
I would rather err on the "side of life".

More (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity)....

The ethic of reciprocity or "The Golden Rule" is a fundamental moral principle found in virtually all major religions and cultures, which simply means "treat others as you would like to be treated." It is arguably the most essential basis for the modern concept of human rights. Principal philosophers and religious figures have stated it in different ways:

"Love your neighbor as yourself." — Moses (ca. 1525-1405 BCE) in the Torah, Leviticus 19:18

"What you do not wish upon yourself, extend not to others." — Confucius (ca. 551–479 BCE)

"It is impossible to live a pleasant life without living wisely and well and justly." - Epicurus (ca. 300 BCE)

"What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man." — Hillel (ca. 50 BCE-10 CE)

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." — Jesus (ca. 5 BCE—33 CE) in the Gospels, Luke 6:31; Luke 10:27 (affirming of Moses)— Matthew 7:12

"Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you." — Muhammad (c. 571 – 632 CE) in The Farewell Sermon.

And we are told to obey the government that is in place over us. That means Saddam is at the mercy of the government and the government sentenced him to death.
Ahhhh, but you take glee in his punishment. You celebrated the invasion of Iraq, and you have joked about BBQing Iranians in a nuclear firestorm. You spout the words but they ring hollow my friend.

Is he under Jewish Sabbatical law?

Somehow I think not.

He is the one who is using those biblical criterion to justify murder
Take issue with him not me

You are the copy and paste king.

The international tribunals you speak of came after the BRUTAL IMPERIALISTIC BUSHCO WORLD WAR II!!!111! IT CANNOT have any leigitimacy111!!!!11!!!! OMG!

So they are illegimate, yes? But they were formed after an illegitimate war of imperialist aggression against peaceful japan and germany!

The Iraq people chose to execute their former despot. Are you not happy? God gave governments the power of life and death in administering law and order.

On a sidenote, a basic human right is self defense. Basically, you have the right to kill an attacker.

Japan actually attacked the US and when the US declared war on the Japanese the Germans who had long been attacking and invading
friends of the US declared war on the US and then the US was at war with
them too. Fighting against the axis nations in WW2 would fit the criteria
for a just war. What a pity the US did not choose to enter it voluntarily
back when it actually started. American forces were very brave
the nation itself however hanging back as long as it did
while its friends were invaded and overrun comes over as
just a tad cowardly.
It may be deep in the soul of the nation given the presidential
running away on 9/11 (LOL cannot believe you guys chose to elect
him again after that)


In other words the aggressor nations lost in WW2
Their courts, their laws and their "justice" in their occupied countries
carried no validity at all and in fact many of them were in and of themselves
war crimes.

As for the legitimacy of the nuremberg trials
The legal basis for the jurisdiction of the court was that defined by the Instrument of Surrender of Germany, political authority for Germany had been transferred to the Allied Control Council, which having sovereign power over Germany could choose to punish violations of international law and the laws of war. Because the court was limited to violations of the laws of war, it did not have jurisdiction over crimes that took place before the outbreak of war on September 1, 1939.

LOL
God gave governments power of life or death ?
You twerp. (and that is both more of a response and more polite than your statement deserves)

Self defence is indeed allowed
it has fairly narrow definition
an imprisoned ex dictator cannot be killed in self defense
as he is not putting anyone in a position of needing to defend themselves from him.

Anyone facing a death penalty is someone who is going to be murdered.
It does no credit to anyone.

On a sidenote, a basic human right is self defense. Basically, you have the right to kill an attacker.

And who, exactly, is Saddam attacking now?

Cheers all, Iraq is fucked!

He is the one who is using those biblical criterion to justify murder
Take issue with him not me



Japan actually attacked the US and when the US declared war on the Japanese the Germans who had long been attacking and invading
friends of the US declared war on the US and then the US was at war with
them too. Fighting against the axis nations in WW2 would fit the criteria
for a just war. What a pity the US did not choose to enter it voluntarily
back when it actually started. American forces were very brave
the nation itself however hanging back as long as it did
while its friends were invaded and overrun comes over as
just a tad cowardly.
It may be deep in the soul of the nation given the presidential
running away on 9/11 (LOL cannot believe you guys chose to elect
him again after that)


In other words the aggressor nations lost in WW2
Their courts, their laws and their "justice" in their occupied countries
carried no validity at all and in fact many of them were in and of themselves
war crimes.

As for the legitimacy of the nuremberg trials
The legal basis for the jurisdiction of the court was that defined by the Instrument of Surrender of Germany, political authority for Germany had been transferred to the Allied Control Council, which having sovereign power over Germany could choose to punish violations of international law and the laws of war. Because the court was limited to violations of the laws of war, it did not have jurisdiction over crimes that took place before the outbreak of war on September 1, 1939.

LOL
God gave governments power of life or death ?
You twerp. (and that is both more of a response and more polite than your statement deserves)

Self defence is indeed allowed
it has fairly narrow definition
an imprisoned ex dictator cannot be killed in self defense
as he is not putting anyone in a position of needing to defend themselves from him.

Anyone facing a death penalty is someone who is going to be murdered.
It does no credit to anyone.

You know what, it's really pointing in discussing anything with you. The USA is far from being cowards.

As the sole Super Power it's damned if you do and damned if you don't, period. It doesn't matter what the hell the USA does, no matter how good or how bad. I don't give a damn no more about all this anti-America BS talk. talk is cheap that's one of the many reasons the UN is a failed organization. Go ahead and continue to hate America for what she stands for. Me, on the other hand, will continue to Love her and thank God for Blessing us so much.

God Bless America.....

And who, exactly, is Saddam attacking now?

Nobody, thanks to the USA and now thanks to the Iraqi courts for finding him guilty and sentencing him to Death.

Nobody.

Then the idea that this is somehow self defense would seem somewhat spurious wouldn't you think?

And certainly since he's not attacking anyone, and very much still alive, killing him would be rather surpufluous at this point, wouldn't ya say?

*hint, check the thread I'm quoting for context, and thanks for proving my point*

Nobody, thanks to the USA and now thanks to the Iraqi courts for finding him guilty and sentencing him to Death.

They sentenced him to Iffrean? Man, I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

And we are told to obey the government that is in place over us.
IF you truly believe that, then whatever Saddam did while he was in power, was okay by God's laws? If so, then Saddam cannot be tried for administering his laws? :eek:

That means Saddam is at the mercy of the government and the government sentenced him to death.
The government that was ordered into being by the US government?

Saddam Hussein is scheduled to be executed within the next 48 hours.

IF you truly believe that, then whatever Saddam did while he was in power, was okay by God's laws? If so, then Saddam cannot be tried for administering his laws? :eek:

You win this thread.

Saddam Hussein is scheduled to be executed within the next 48 hours.
This will be a travesty. My guess is that this will be bad for both the US and Iraq.

I'd be willing to bet my virginity that King Bodacious is no older than 14.

I'd be willing to bet my virginity that King Bodacious is no older than 14.

you may be right ,as for your virginity , i say not one word

I'd be willing to bet my virginity that King Bodacious is no older than 14.

You, my friend, insult young people's intelligence. I think KB is probably in his late twenties or early thirties.

You, my friend, insult young people's intelligence. I think KB is probably in his late twenties or early thirties.

True. Many young people probably can't even point out the Middle East on the map. ;)

As to KB? Sadly are probably right. I have relatives in those age ranges that talk like him! :(

If he is in the Bible Belt or Florida, he might be one of them. :eek: :D

He's not really going to be killed. That's why the execution is in a secret location at a secret time.

Seventy two hours from now he'll be sipping Pina Coladas on the beachfront in a CIA safe house in Costa Rica.

True. Many young people probably can't even point out the Middle East on the map. Well, it's gotta be somewhere near the Middle West, or what...? :confused: :eek: :( :rolleyes:

He's not really going to be killed. That's why the execution is in a secret location at a secret time.

Seventy two hours from now he'll be sipping Pina Coladas on the beachfront in a CIA safe house in Costa Rica.?? Rumsfeld has a house in Costa Rica?

?? Rumsfeld has a house in Costa Rica?

I think it's only a long term let. It's not actually his.

I think it's only a long term let. It's not actually his.Ah, I see. Do you think Rummy and Saddy still are best friends like they were back in the old days?

Saddam Hussein is scheduled to be executed within the next 48 hours.

Proof please. All I see is that it could be as early as this weekend.

The Bible also tells you to follow the laws of your government.
It certainly does not. It tells us to submit to them.

In all our spirited discussions you have a view of christians that suprises me. You seem to think that Christians are supposed to be "Oh! Kumbaya!" and so pacifistic that we shouldn't advocate justice, we shouldn't fight wars, shouldn't oppose abortion, etc. What gives?
If all you've ever come across is born-again Republicans then I'm sure you would be surprised. Look at the way Jesus Christ behaved - it's all there in the Bible - I see little similarity between His behaviour and that of right-wing American Christians. And make no mistake, to be righteous we must

Christians should be pacifistic. Who said anything about abortion? I and plenty of other left-wing Christians oppose it as much as anyone. I also think that pure capitalism is not compatible with my religion.

Finally, the contradiction between opposing abortion and supporting non-defensive wars is so obvious that I shouldn't need to explain it.


We could be using the Koran I'm not an expert on it but I believe it also advocates the grounds of Capital Punishment.
Capital punishment is advocated in both the Bible and the Qu'ran.

Without all the jesus nonsense.

Which makes me wonder if you could even have such a thing as a "secular version of christianity" as a version of religion without the religion is hardly a version of religion at all. In other words, there's no more such thing as a "secular version of reality" as there is a dry version of an ocean.
The Bible is a complex book, with many concepts which can apply even without the backing of God and Jesus.

I don't really want to get into this discussion here; it's quite a long one. Read "Straw Dogs" by John Gray (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Straw-Dogs-Thoughts-Humans-Animals/dp/1862075964/sr=1-1/qid=1167436652/ref=sr_1_1/026-0771896-8650000?ie=UTF8&s=books).

Back on Topic: I hope Saddam's execution is televised.
We'll watch it on YOutube that night.
So you will enjoy the sight of someone being killed?

Is he under Jewish Sabbatical law?

Is Saddam?

He's not really going to be killed. That's why the execution is in a secret location at a secret time.

Seventy two hours from now he'll be sipping Pina Coladas on the beachfront in a CIA safe house in Costa Rica.

Thats why its going to be officially filmed. No let me guess they are going to get someone who looks like him or someone with a hood over their head and hang them ? Obviously they will bribe the people who do the post mortem and we will all think its saddam