NationStates Jolt Archive

I just saw some toys called Holy Pals. They are plush Jesus, Noah, etc, and when you press their hand they say "holy messages". I looked at them and thought, they look really white.

Jesus, Noah, etc all come from the middle east. Popular culture has this blue eyed, blonded haired Jesus, but it's crap. Jesus would look like a terrorist and get racially profiled at an airport.

Here's how it would go down.

Airline Guard (AG): So, why have you come to America from Nazereth.
Jesus Christ (JC): I have come with my 12 apostles to spread the message of my lord.
AG: Just wait here. [walks away]
AG: Look at that Arab. He's already got a 12 man cell, and he's looking at creating more in the U.S.A. to do the work of the lord. I'll call the feds. [calls feds]
Federal Agent (FA): Come with me.
JC: What have I done? Can I call my apostles?
FA: [Hits JC with nightstick] Call your lord. There's no other calls you can make here.
JC : What about the constitution?
FA: [Hits the floor laughing, holding his sides] You're in a place that justice forgot. Now bend over! [sound of a rubber glove]

Jesus was Jewish.

Not only would I have jesus cavity searched - if he existed - I would then ship him off to guantanamo to let him rot. Dirty malcontent hippy.

What did jesus - if he existed - ever do for the world? A lot less than the romans, or the ancient greeks, that's for sure.

Also, what's with this constant carping about jesus having blond hair? WTF. Every C of E church I went to ever, had him as a brunette. And sickly and weedy looking to boot.

Jesus was Jewish.And?

Not only would I have jesus cavity searched - if he existed - I would then ship him off to guantanamo to let him rot. Dirty malcontent hippy.

What did jesus - if he existed - ever do for the world? A lot less than the romans, or the ancient greeks, that's for sure.

Also, what's with this constant carping about jesus having blond hair? WTF. Every C of E church I went to ever, had him as a brunette. And sickly and weedy looking to boot.

Even if you look solely at the Bible, Jesus actually did a lot - overturned (some people will argue with this) some parts of the Old Testament, healed people, brought people back to life, protected people, preached messages of love and peace, etc.

And the "sickly and weedy-looking" images are probably to show that even if you are sickly and weedy-looking, you can do amazing things when you want to.

And?

And he doesn't fit the profile of an al qaeda terrorist. You know, what with him being Jewish and all.

Seems more of a statement of the times than one about Jesus. Makes a good point. Next time YOU get stopped at the airport or where ever, that is.

And he doesn't fit the profile of an al qaeda terrorist. You know, what with him being Jewish and all.

Wasn't he only 'Jewish' by birth though, and therefore not actually Jewish (being a particular religion just because you're 'born into it' is like saying "I'm Jewish because someone just called me a Jew") - are there any examples of Him personally accepting and holding to the Jewish religion in the Bible? I don't think there are.

And he doesn't fit the profile of an al qaeda terrorist. You know, what with him being Jewish and all.

Hey, don't forget. If a 4 month old Caucasian baby can get on the list, so could Jesus.

Wasn't he only 'Jewish' by birth though, and therefore not actually Jewish (being a particular religion just because you're 'born into it' is like saying "I'm Jewish because someone just called me a Jew") - are there any examples of Him personally accepting and holding to the Jewish religion in the Bible? I don't think there are.

he was Hebrew.........

Even if you look solely at the Bible, Jesus actually did a lot - overturned (some people will argue with this) some parts of the Old Testament, healed people, brought people back to life, protected people, preached messages of love and peace, etc.

And the "sickly and weedy-looking" images are probably to show that even if you are sickly and weedy-looking, you can do amazing things when you want to.

Jesus did nothing for me. I don't care that he overturned part of the old testament. That's like telling me he really revolutionized the practice of zen. Means nothing to me, sport.

As for the rest, he healed a few lepers in galilee, brought some dude back to life and got all crosspatch in a temple that the romans burned down a few years later anyway. Big deal. (And that's if he even existed).

It's not like he was the first dude to suggest 'be nice to one another'. (Or the last).

I say the total contribution is minor. The only way you could think otherwise is if you are a jesusist.

And he doesn't fit the profile of an al qaeda terrorist. You know, what with him being Jewish and all.

Yes but he was - if he existed - a terrorist. He constantly caused trouble for the legitimate, civilized roman government.

And he doesn't fit the profile of an al qaeda terrorist. You know, what with him being Jewish and all.

In the context of when JC lived, Judaism was as big a problem as the Muslim faith is now to the authorities.

Also in an attempt to not get the thread hung up on a small point.
Also, what's with this constant carping about jesus having blond hair? WTF. Every C of E church I went to ever, had him as a brunette. And sickly and weedy looking to boot.
I got a bit overzealous with the blonde hair. He is usually a brunette, but he looks Anglo-Saxon, or Aryan, not Semitic.

Well the dude probably spoke hebrew, and pretty obviously wasn't Muslim. He wouldn't be carrying a Koran, wouldn't speak arabic, and wouldn't have a prayer rug for the kneeling toward mecca thing. I think his lack of a passport would be the biggest obstacle. That and the fact that he probably wouldn't smell great. I can't imagine soap and deodorant were things he would come across regularly. Sitting next to Jesus on a long flight would suck.

Well the dude probably spoke hebrew, and pretty obviously wasn't Muslim. He wouldn't be carrying a Koran, wouldn't speak arabic, and wouldn't have a prayer rug for the kneeling toward mecca thing. I think his lack of a passport would be the biggest obstacle. That and the fact that he probably wouldn't smell great. I can't imagine soap and deodorant were things he would come across regularly. Sitting next to Jesus on a long flight would suck.What dude spoke Hebrew? Jesus? That dude spoke Aramaic.

In the context of when JC lived, Judaism was as big a problem as the Muslim faith is now to the authorities.

Also in an attempt to not get the thread hung up on a small point.

I got a bit overzealous with the blonde hair. He is usually a brunette, but he looks Anglo-Saxon, or Aryan, not Semitic.Aryan? Like from Herat or Eastern Iran?

Jesus did nothing for me. I don't care that he overturned part of the old testament. That's like telling me he really revolutionized the practice of zen. Means nothing to me, sport.

As for the rest, he healed a few lepers in galilee, brought some dude back to life and got all crosspatch in a temple that the romans burned down a few years later anyway. Big deal. (And that's if he even existed).

It's not like he was the first dude to suggest 'be nice to one another'. (Or the last).

I say the total contribution is minor. The only way you could think otherwise is if you are a jesusist.

Well, I'm pulled both ways on this. One way by my faith in Jesus Christ, and the other by my disdain for christian religious organizations. However, I think Jesus' greatest contribution was His existence. Imagine if christianity never existed. As Lewis Black pointed out, the Old Testament God was a prick. Having a kid mellowed Him out a lot. :p

Well, I'm pulled both ways on this. One way by my faith in Jesus Christ, and the other by my disdain for christian religious organizations. However, I think Jesus' greatest contribution was His existence. Imagine if christianity never existed. As Lewis Black pointed out, the Old Testament God was a prick. Having a kid mellowed Him out a lot. :pBut without Jesus the Old Testament faith would have died out eventually.

jesus totally looked like a hippie, too. he'd so get searched on suspicion of smuggling dope ;)

Sitting next to Jesus on a long flight would suck.

Well, if you were flying economy and on a budget, I'm sure that there would have been at least some benefits. Water to wine and all that. :p

Well, I'm pulled both ways on this. One way by my faith in Jesus Christ, and the other by my disdain for christian religious organizations. However, I think Jesus' greatest contribution was His existence. Imagine if christianity never existed. As Lewis Black pointed out, the Old Testament God was a prick. Having a kid mellowed Him out a lot. :p
Which Old Testament God? There were lots of them... Because of mistranslations the Elohim, or many gods, were stated as being one big God...

Which Old Testament God? There were lots of them... Because of mistranslations the Elohim, or many gods, were stated as being one big God...

Which Bible are you reading again?:confused:

Which Old Testament God? There were lots of them... Because of mistranslations the Elohim, or many gods, were stated as being one big God...

Like Voltron! :D

jesus totally looked like a hippie, too. he'd so get searched on suspicion of smuggling dope And he had some for sure :p :eek:

And he had some for sure :p :eek:

:p

and moses was a pothead too.... "burning bush" ring a bell? ;)

Like Voltron! :D

Voltron would be good... Makes more sense than most Bible listed gods... :p

:p

and moses was a pothead too.... "burning bush" ring a bell? ;)"burning bush" isn't that bad after all... :eek: :D

Not only would I have jesus cavity searched - if he existed - I would then ship him off to guantanamo to let him rot. Dirty malcontent hippy.

What did jesus - if he existed - ever do for the world? A lot less than the romans, or the ancient greeks, that's for sure.

Also, what's with this constant carping about jesus having blond hair? WTF. Every C of E church I went to ever, had him as a brunette. And sickly and weedy looking to boot.

I agree with you but...

Who gives a shit?

Wasn't he only 'Jewish' by birth though, and therefore not actually Jewish (being a particular religion just because you're 'born into it' is like saying "I'm Jewish because someone just called me a Jew") - are there any examples of Him personally accepting and holding to the Jewish religion in the Bible? I don't think there are.

jesus was completely jewish. he wasnt out to start a new religion but to refocus judaism to a more personal and loving view of god.

you really did just join the church for the cake eh?

But without Jesus the Old Testament faith would have died out eventually.

why do you say that?

why do you say that?Without Jesus Judaism would very likely have been forgotten, because Judaism would have never achieved the kind of, well, homogeneity it got in its counter position against Christianity. It's numerous sects, offshoots, and splinter groups would have most likely just dissolved into oblivion.

Without Jesus Judaism would very likely have been forgotten, because Judaism would have never achieved the kind of, well, homogeneity it got in its counter position against Christianity. It's numerous sects, offshoots, and splinter groups would have most likely just dissolved into oblivion.

Which would mean no Islam either. Maybe we wouldn't have to deal with all this terrorism and war today if Jesus had never been born and Judaism had died out.

Which would mean no Islam either. Maybe we wouldn't have to deal with all this terrorism and war today if Jesus had never been born and Judaism had died out.I'm not sure about that. Islam was only partially built on Jewish tradition, while some of it came from other sources of the region.
And maybe you wouldn't have to deal with all this terrorism and war today if the US had pursued more moderate and less intrusive policies in the last 50 years or so.

Which would mean no Islam either. Maybe we wouldn't have to deal with all this terrorism and war today if Jesus had never been born and Judaism had died out.

on that, a great book called What if? (http://www.amazon.com/What-If-Foremost-MILITARY-Historians/dp/0425176428/sr=8-1/qid=1167151906/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-1300558-3996841?ie=UTF8&s=books) where military historians hypothesise what would have happened if battles had gone differently.

One of them is Assyrian king Sennacherib laying siege to the last jewish village. His men got food poisining and had to lift the siege, an event in the OT. What would have happened if the cook had a clue and he slaughtered every jewish man woman and child. No Judaism, Christianity and Islam! Amazing how history hinges on things that trivial

Also, what's with this constant carping about jesus having blond hair? WTF. Every C of E church I went to ever, had him as a brunette. And sickly and weedy looking to boot.
I did a google search and at about the fourth page, I found a picture of Jesus as a blonde.

http://www.upstel.net/covenant/jesus.html

There's another one that makes him look really Aryan but the site's in Spanish I don't get that.
http://www.aciprensa.com/Banco/images/jesus-3.jpg

The rest of the pictures before these showed him with brown or black hair.

I did a google search and at about the fourth page, I found a picture of Jesus as a blonde.

http://www.upstel.net/covenant/jesus.html

There's another one that makes him look really Aryan but the site's in Spanish I don't get that.
http://www.aciprensa.com/Banco/images/jesus-3.jpg

The rest of the pictures before these showed him with brown or black hair.And then what they say to be the "anthropological image of Jesus"

http://www.milkshake-batatas.blogger.com.br/jesus%20south%20park.JPG

or so ... http://www.milkshake-batatas.blogger.com.br/jesus%20south%20park.JPG

Jesus did nothing for me. I don't care that he overturned part of the old testament. That's like telling me he really revolutionized the practice of zen. Means nothing to me, sport.

As for the rest, he healed a few lepers in galilee, brought some dude back to life and got all crosspatch in a temple that the romans burned down a few years later anyway. Big deal. (And that's if he even existed).

It's not like he was the first dude to suggest 'be nice to one another'. (Or the last).

I say the total contribution is minor. The only way you could think otherwise is if you are a jesusist.

No, the way I can think otherwise is if otherwise is true. According to the Bible, he perfomed a number of miracles that aimed to create either a better life for a person or better lives for people. The overturning of things in the Old Testament is good because it has Moses supposedly quoting God (I personally think if Moses actually said this stuff, he was lying his head off) saying stuff like you can seel your daughter and other messed-up sh*t. Jesus seemingly helped people realise that acting in such a way (selling daughters) is not in line with what God actually wants. According to the Bible, he also protected one or two people in major ways, like calming the sea.

Also he helped establish peace between Jews and Gentiles

Yes but he was - if he existed - a terrorist. He constantly caused trouble for the legitimate, civilized roman government.

Oh yeh he was a terrorist for causing trouble to such a lovely, not-at-all murderous, roman government. :rolleyes:

jesus was completely jewish. he wasnt out to start a new religion but to refocus judaism to a more personal and loving view of god.

Bible passage numbers??

you really did just join the church for the cake eh?

Oh come one, a large amount of so-called Christians (like any religion) know hardly anything about the Bible - at least I did confirmation so know SOME stuff. And the cake aint usually vegan at C of E.

Without Jesus Judaism would very likely have been forgotten, because Judaism would have never achieved the kind of, well, homogeneity it got in its counter position against Christianity. It's numerous sects, offshoots, and splinter groups would have most likely just dissolved into oblivion.

I beg to differ. Judaism, even back then, was quite good at absorbing splinter groups, offshoots and sects. No, I think Judaism would have survived and even flourished. There were some Romans of the upper classes who flirted with it a little, and with no competition from emerging Christianity, it's possible Judaism could have become a religious fad of some importance in the Empire.

I think that without Saint Paul taking Jesus' message to the Gentiles, Christianity would have been absorbed back into Judaism.

Bible passage numbers??



Oh come one, a large amount of so-calledChristians (like any religion) know hardly anything about the Bible - at least I did confirmation so know SOME stuff. And the cake aint usually vegan at C of E.

why would there be a passage explicitly stating that a jew is a jew?

jesus DID say that he came not to change the law but to fulfill it and that he came to the people of israel.

I'm not sure about that. Islam was only partially built on Jewish tradition, while some of it came from other sources of the region.
And maybe you wouldn't have to deal with all this terrorism and war today if the US had pursued more moderate and less intrusive policies in the last 50 years or so.

I'm probably gonna annoy Muslims now but fuck it:

I reckon the Qur'an was made by someone who grabbed a copy of the Bible, scribbled a few bits out, wrote a few extra passages, then had it all printed again to be "the Qur'an" and that's why there are so many things in the Qur'an that are similar to the Bible, only with often different endings.

why would there be a passage explicitly stating that a jew is a jew?

jesus DID say that he came not to change the law but to fulfill it and that he came to the people of israel.


If there's no passage suggesting that, then there's no evidence He is or ever was a Jew.

Fulfilling the law doesn't mean the person who does so belongs to a particular religion, even if that law is based on religion. And if Jesus was Jewish and thus believed that Judaism is the right religion, why would Christianity have emerged? Why would Jesus not have declared Judaism to be the one true religion?

I'm probably gonna annoy Muslims now but fuck it:

I reckon the Qur'an was made by someone who grabbed a copy of the Bible, scribbled a few bits out, wrote a few extra passages, then had it all printed again to be "the Qur'an" and that's why there are so many things in the Qur'an that are similar to the Bible, only with often different endings.

Islam is certainly seen as the culmination of the line begun in Judaism and extended in Christianity. There were quite a few Christians down through the Hejaz in Mohammed's day, and if he traveled with the caravans of this family up to Palestine and Syria, as is certainly possible, he'd have been exposed to Christianity. The same for Judaism, though probably on a smaller scale.

If there's no passage suggesting that, then there's no evidence He is or ever was a Jew.

Fulfilling the law doesn't mean the person who does so belongs to a particular religion, even if that law is based on religion. And if Jesus was Jewish and thus believed that Judaism is the right religion, why would Christianity have emerged? Why would Jesus not have declared Judaism to be the one true religion?

I don't know ... same reason he never declared Christianity the one true religion?

I'm probably gonna annoy Muslims now but fuck it:

I reckon the Qur'an was made by someone who grabbed a copy of the Bible, scribbled a few bits out, wrote a few extra passages, then had it all printed again to be "the Qur'an" and that's why there are so many things in the Qur'an that are similar to the Bible, only with often different endings.

have you read the koran?

ive only glanced through it but it seemed to me to be very much not like the bible.

I don't know ... same reason he never declared Christianity the one true religion?

Well nobody's claiming He's Christian.

If a person strongly believed in their religion, surely they'd make at least a passing comment that it was the right religion to belong to? Especially with all the stuff in the Bible about not worhipping other Gods etc.

have you read the koran?

ive only glanced through it but it seemed to me to be very much not like the bible.


I've read some of it and there are parts that are TOTALLY different (what I believe are the added passages) but there are bits that start off VERY similar - eg. I may be remembering this wrong, but there's a story about Jesus but instead of rising up, He just dies - and there's also something very similar to what the Bible says about Jesus coming back to rule over the world, though I think the Qur'an says it's "only for a short time" and obviously "under the command of Allah"

If there's no passage suggesting that, then there's no evidence He is or ever was a Jew.

Fulfilling the law doesn't mean the person who does so belongs to a particular religion, even if that law is based on religion. And if Jesus was Jewish and thus believed that Judaism is the right religion, why would Christianity have emerged? Why would Jesus not have declared Judaism to be the one true religion?

do you know ANYTHING about christianity and the bible?

jesus was born to a jewish mother, he debated theology in the temple when he was 12, he quoted jewish scripture, he lived in a jewish country, he debated dogma with the jewish pharisees, he observed passover. he was preaching to jews about a new view of the jewish god. he specifically spoke against preaching to non-jews.

im sure i can think of more but do i really have to?

do you know ANYTHING about christianity and the bible?

I know qiote a bit, but not everything about it, as I suspect neither do you, as is the case of many so-called Christians

jesus was born to a jewish mother, he debated theology in the temple when he was 12, he quoted jewish scripture, he lived in a jewish country, he debated dogma with the jewish pharisees, he observed passover. he was preaching to jews about a new view of the jewish god. he specifically spoke against preaching to non-jews.

And your point is?

1. Born to Jewish Mother: irrelevant. Doesn't make Him a Jew unless he chose to be.

2. Debated theology: I've done this with people of various religions, doesn't make me a follower of any of them.

3. Lived in a Jewish country: irrelevant

4. Debated dogma: irrelevant, see 2

5. Observed passover? Passage number? Lots of people also celebrate Christmas but are not Christian

6. Preaching to Jews, yes, about the new view of a JEWISH God? Where does it say God's Jewish (in either unitarian, trinitarian, or other "ian" way)?

7. Spoke out AGAINST preaching to non-Jews despite the fact that he free,ly associated with "outcasts" of the time? Passage number?

im sure i can think of more but do i really have to?

Obviously.

Well nobody's claiming He's Christian.

If a person strongly believed in their religion, surely they'd make at least a passing comment that it was the right religion to belong to? Especially with all the stuff in the Bible about not worhipping other Gods etc.

I think that is unstated with the assumption that if he is the son of god and does choose to worship this religion that he would in fact be practicing a true religion

I think that is unstated with the assumption that if he is the son of god and does choose to worship this religion that he would in fact be practicing a true religion

Exactly - where does it suggest he CHOSE to WORSHIP this religion? Didn't he in fact say "don't do as the hypocrites do" and then go on to warn against arbitrary rituals?

The fact that He is the Son of God does not mean that God is Jewish just because Jews believe He is.

No, the way I can think otherwise is if otherwise is true. According to the Bible, he perfomed a number of miracles that aimed to create either a better life for a person or better lives for people. The overturning of things in the Old Testament is good because it has Moses supposedly quoting God (I personally think if Moses actually said this stuff, he was lying his head off) saying stuff like you can seel your daughter and other messed-up sh*t. Jesus seemingly helped people realise that acting in such a way (selling daughters) is not in line with what God actually wants. According to the Bible, he also protected one or two people in major ways, like calming the sea.

Also he helped establish peace between Jews and Gentiles

The aqueduct and public sanitation saved more lives than that hippy ever did. And before jesus, no-one of consequence paid any attention to moses.

I hardly think that jesus ever helped establish peace between the jews and the gentiles either.

I know qiote a bit, but not everything about it, as I suspect neither do you, as is the case of many so-called Christians



And your point is?

1. Born to Jewish Mother: irrelevant. Doesn't make Him a Jew unless he chose to be.

2. Debated theology: I've done this with people of various religions, doesn't make me a follower of any of them.

3. Lived in a Jewish country: irrelevant

4. Debated dogma: irrelevant, see 2

5. Observed passover? Passage number? Lots of people also celebrate Christmas but are not Christian

6. Preaching to Jews, yes, about the new view of a JEWISH God? Where does it say God's Jewish (in either unitarian, trinitarian, or other "ian" way)?

7. Spoke out AGAINST preaching to non-Jews despite the fact that he free,ly associated with "outcasts" of the time? Passage number?



Obviously.

ok this is my last "proof" and then you are going to have to give some reasonable "proof" of your own, not just questions


everyone he picked as apostles was jewish. in the book of acts there was a huge debate between peter and paul as to whether in order to be a christian one must first convert to judaism. now, paul won the debate and it was decided that christians do not need to be jews first BUT why would peter, a guy who hung out with jesus for more than 3 years, even think such a thing unless they were all jews?

Oh yeh he was a terrorist for causing trouble to such a lovely, not-at-all murderous, roman government. :rolleyes:

Roman administration was the pinicle of civilization at the point. That's why it lasted so long and had so much success.

The greeks seemed to find it okay. Just because Judeans had this silly nonsense about monotheism doesn't mean that the romans were 'murderous'.

The aqueduct and public sanitation saved more lives than that hippy ever did. And before jesus, no-one of consequence paid any attention to moses.

Maybe, if you base your view on the Bible alone, but Jesus still saved lives, and saving lives is good.

I personally believe Jesus continues to save lives today (see one of my God or religion theories for more detailed explanation in regards to suffering etc.).

And Jews paid attention to Moses before Jesus came along.

I hardly think that jesus ever helped establish peace between the jews and the gentiles either.

Oh well maybe not. But at least Jews and Christians aint constantly fighting each other.

Roman administration was the pinicle of civilization at the point. That's why it lasted so long and had so much success.

The greeks seemed to find it okay. Just because Judeans had this silly nonsense about monotheism doesn't mean that the romans were 'murderous'.

romans harmed others, including those who spoke out against them - just like the U.S.. Neither were civilised (at least the government structures weren't).

I know qiote a bit, but not everything about it, as I suspect neither do you, as is the case of many so-called Christians

5. Observed passover? Passage number? Lots of people also celebrate Christmas but are not Christian

6. Preaching to Jews, yes, about the new view of a JEWISH God? Where does it say God's Jewish (in either unitarian, trinitarian, or other "ian" way)?

7. Spoke out AGAINST preaching to non-Jews despite the fact that he free,ly associated with "outcasts" of the time? Passage number?

.

the last supper was PASSOVER.

did you miss the part where the entire old testament has this one god and he chose the jews as his chosen people? the new testament isnt about a different god.

the outcasts were all jews. he didnt preach to non jews and only healed one samaritan woman because she kept after him and he was impressed by her faith.

Roman administration was the pinicle of civilization at the point. That's why it lasted so long and had so much success.

The greeks seemed to find it okay. Just because Judeans had this silly nonsense about monotheism doesn't mean that the romans were 'murderous'.

Absolutely. The Roman Republic and Empire were quite happy to allow the provinces to handle internal matters internally. If, however, you got out of line in a way that attracted the attention of the Roman authorities, you'd get a warning, maybe a relatively mild punishment. If you persisted, the Romans could be quite brutal. Once you and any of your followers who got caught with you were dealt with, the Empire would sleep again. This was especially true in matters of religion. You could worship a rat's ass as long as you did it in a civilized manner and also made the perfunctory and easy sacrifices to the state religion.

Hollywood is fond of portraying Palestine under Roman rule as being filled with armored soldiers and noble monotheistic rebels. That simply wasn't true. There were legions in the East because that was the frontier with the Persians, not because Rome was seriously interested in persecuting Christians and Jews. Active persecution came later when the Jews rose in revolt twice, and when the Christians started defying the duly constituted civil authority by not sacrificing to the state religion. In other words, they were breaking the laws.

romans harmed others, including those who spoke out against them - just like the U.S.. Neither were civilised (at least the government structures weren't).

See my response above, but bascially, this is crap and not history.

ok this is my last "proof" and then you are going to have to give some reasonable "proof" of your own, not just questions


everyone he picked as apostles was jewish. in the book of acts there was a huge debate between peter and paul as to whether in order to be a christian one must first convert to judaism. now, paul won the debate and it was decided that christians do not need to be jews first BUT why would peter, a guy who hung out with jesus for more than 3 years, even think such a thing unless they were all jews?

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. I don't have to disprove what you say, you have to prove it.

Most people around at the time were probably Jewish, hence it makes sense that the apostles were Jewish. And if you're so knowledgable about the Bible, what's the passage number you speak of in Acts?

romans harmed others, including those who spoke out against them - just like the U.S.. Neither were civilised (at least the government structures weren't).

That's every government in history more or less. I'm not going to suggest that the roman's modelled their administration after the ACLU theories on government, but by the standard of the times they were far better than most of the alternatives around them.

In fact, if you were a woman or gay or not a jew, you were probably delighted that the roman's had come to jerusalem. The jews were just so angry because their god had failed them yet again, and so they told lots of lies about how bad the romans were. Very few others had this problem.

If anything it was the Herod guy who was the ass.

the last supper was PASSOVER.

did you miss the part where the entire old testament has this one god and he chose the jews as his chosen people? the new testament isnt about a different god.

That's OLD Testamant, and as I've stated, it seems that Jesus actually overrruled some stuff in the Old Testament, as it was wrong - such as the stuff Moses claimed God said about burning unbelievers.

the outcasts were all jews. he didnt preach to non jews and only healed one samaritan woman because she kept after him and he was impressed by her faith.

No they weren't - there was at least one non-Jewish woman who came to Jesus for assistance, and the religion isn't mentioned for every single person who Jesus associated with.

I just saw some toys called Holy Pals. They are plush Jesus, Noah, etc, and when you press their hand they say "holy messages". I looked at them and thought, they look really white.

Jesus, Noah, etc all come from the middle east. Popular culture has this blue eyed, blonded haired Jesus, but it's crap. Jesus would look like a terrorist and get racially profiled at an airport.

Here's how it would go down.

Airline Guard (AG): So, why have you come to America from Nazereth.
Jesus Christ (JC): I have come with my 12 apostles to spread the message of my lord.
AG: Just wait here. [walks away]
AG: Look at that Arab. He's already got a 12 man cell, and he's looking at creating more in the U.S.A. to do the work of the lord. I'll call the feds. [calls feds]
Federal Agent (FA): Come with me.
JC: What have I done? Can I call my apostles?
FA: [Hits JC with nightstick] Call your lord. There's no other calls you can make here.
JC : What about the constitution?
FA: [Hits the floor laughing, holding his sides] You're in a place that justice forgot. Now bend over! [sound of a rubber glove]

All that's missing is the Burger King with "Where is your God now?"

http://www.adjab.com/images/2005/04/burgerking_150.jpg

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. I don't have to disprove what you say, you have to prove it.

Most people around at the time were probably Jewish, hence it makes sense that the apostles were Jewish. And if you're so knowledgable about the Bible, what's the passage number you speak of in Acts?

and if i give it to you will you agree that my point proves that everyone in the gospels is jewish?

how bout YOU give one iota of proof that jesus wasnt jewish? questioning it isnt proof and the jewishness of jesus IS a commonly accepted fact. what would cause you to deny the obvious?

That's OLD Testamant, and as I've stated, it seems that Jesus actually overrruled some stuff in the Old Testament, as it was wrong - such as the stuff Moses claimed God said about burning unbelievers.



No they weren't - there was at least one non-Jewish woman who came to Jesus for assistance, and the religion isn't mentioned for every single person who Jesus associated with.

yes that IS the old testament. do YOU recall any passage in the bible where jesus denied the jewish god? do you recall any passage where he said that he was associated with a different god whose son he was? i cant.

and if i give it to you will you agree that my point proves that everyone in the gospels is jewish?

Depends what the text actually says.

how bout YOU give one iota of proof that jesus wasnt jewish? questioning it isnt proof and the jewishness of jesus IS a commonly accepted fact. what would cause you to deny the obvious?

I have no need nor intention of proving he isn't Jewish, as I'm not the first person to make a claim - YOU are making the claim that He is Jewish and the onus is on YOU to prove it. If I get arrested for something, apart from for a rape where the victim has to prove that they are not guilty of lying and is basically treated as though they are the person trial, the prosecution would have to prove that I am guilty, as they made the claim that I AM a thief (just as YOU are making the claim that Jesus IS Jewish). For me to try to prove that He wasn't Jewish would involve me reading the whole Bible before replying, to check that he wasn't Christian, Jewish or any other religion - all you have to do is provide evidence that he IS Jewish.

If someone wanted to prove I'm NOT a member of the Church of England, they'd have to look through my whole flat and root through ALL of my stuff. If they wanted to prove I AM such a member, they could just show my Baptism and Confirmation Certificate or the entry in the parish register.

yes that IS the old testament. do YOU recall any passage in the bible where jesus denied the jewish god? do you recall any passage where he said that he was associated with a different god whose son he was? i cant.

Nope. I don't recall any passage where He denied GOD - without mentioning whether God was Jewish or not (and if you believe the trinitarian theory, He'd be denying Himself in any case)

heres acts chapter 15


1 Some who had come down from Judea were instructing the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved."
2 Because there arose no little dissension and debate by Paul and Barnabas with them, it was decided that Paul, Barnabas, and some of the others should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and presbyters about this question.
3 They were sent on their journey by the church, and passed through Phoenicia and Samaria telling of the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers.
4 When they arrived in Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church, as well as by the apostles and the presbyters, and they reported what God had done with them.
5 But some from the party of the Pharisees who had become believers stood up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and direct them to observe the Mosaic law."
6 The apostles and the presbyters met together to see about this matter.
7 After much debate had taken place, Peter got up and said to them, "My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us.
9 He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts.
10 Why, then, are you now putting God to the test by placing on the shoulders of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear?
11 On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they."
12 The whole assembly fell silent, and they listened while Paul and Barnabas described the signs and wonders God had worked among the Gentiles through them.
13 After they had fallen silent, James responded, "My brothers, listen to me.
14 Symeon has described how God first concerned himself with acquiring from among the Gentiles a people for his name.
15 The words of the prophets agree with this, as is written:
16 'After this I shall return and rebuild the fallen hut of David; from its ruins I shall rebuild it and raise it up again,
17 so that the rest of humanity may seek out the Lord, even all the Gentiles on whom my name is invoked. Thus says the Lord who accomplishes these things,
18 known from of old.'
19 It is my judgment, therefore, that we ought to stop troubling the Gentiles who turn to God,
20 but tell them by letter to avoid pollution from idols, unlawful marriage, the meat of strangled animals, and blood.
21 For Moses, for generations now, has had those who proclaim him in every town, as he has been read in the synagogues every sabbath."
22 Then the apostles and presbyters, in agreement with the whole church, decided to choose representatives and to send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. The ones chosen were Judas, who was called Barsabbas, and Silas, leaders among the brothers.
23 This is the letter delivered by them: "The apostles and the presbyters, your brothers, to the brothers in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia of Gentile origin: greetings.
24 Since we have heard that some of our number (who went out) without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind,
25 we have with one accord decided to choose representatives and to send them to you along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 who have dedicated their lives to the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 So we are sending Judas and Silas who will also convey this same message by word of mouth:
28 'It is the decision of the holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities,
29 namely, to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from meats of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage. If you keep free of these, you will be doing what is right. Farewell.'"
30 And so they were sent on their journey. Upon their arrival in Antioch they called the assembly together and delivered the letter.
31 When the people read it, they were delighted with the exhortation.
32 Judas and Silas, who were themselves prophets, exhorted and strengthened the brothers with many words.
33 After they had spent some time there, they were sent off with greetings of peace from the brothers to those who had commissioned them.
34

35 But Paul and Barnabas remained in Antioch, teaching and proclaiming with many others the word of the Lord.
36 After some time, Paul said to Barnabas, "Come, let us make a return visit to see how the brothers are getting on in all the cities where we proclaimed the word of the Lord."
37 Barnabas wanted to take with them also John, who was called Mark,
38 but Paul insisted that they should not take with them someone who had deserted them at Pamphylia and who had not continued with them in their work.
39 So sharp was their disagreement that they separated. Barnabas took Mark and sailed to Cyprus.
40 But Paul chose Silas and departed after being commended by the brothers to the grace of the Lord.
41 He traveled through Syria and Cilicia bringing strength to the churches


they call nonjews gentiles, thats something that jews do. they debate the need for circumcision, a jewish practice. they talk about mosaic law, irrelevant to anyone who isnt a jew. they continue the practice of banning the eating of blood and of meat that comes from strangled animals, a kosher jewish practice.

Depends what the text actually says.



I have no need nor intention of proving he isn't Jewish, as I'm not the first person to make a claim - YOU are making the claim that He is Jewish and the onus is on YOU to prove it. If I get arrested for something, apart from for a rape where the victim has to prove that they are not guilty of lying and is basically treated as though they are the person trial, the prosecution would have to prove that I am guilty, as they made the claim that I AM a thief (just as YOU are making the claim that Jesus IS Jewish). For me to try to prove that He wasn't Jewish would involve me reading the whole Bible before replying, to check that he wasn't Christian, Jewish or any other religion - all you have to do is provide evidence that he IS Jewish.

If someone wanted to prove I'm NOT a member of the Church of England, they'd have to look through my whole flat and root through ALL of my stuff. If they wanted to prove I AM such a member, they could just show my Baptism and Confirmation Certificate or the entry in the parish register.

i have provided more than enough proof of something that no one else disputes. if you cannot provide any proof, my proof must stand.

are there any examples of Him personally accepting and holding to the Jewish religion in the Bible? I don't think there are.

...um, have you ever *read* the bible? he does it many, many times. early christians built almost all their practices on jewish ones. the first major conflict in the christian church was weither christianity was going to remain exclusively for jews, or if gentiles could come into it too. the early liturgical structure of the church was based nearly completely on the practice in jewish synagogues of the time. of course, a methodist church isn't going to remotely resemble judaism, but neither does it resemble early christianity. I strongly suspect that a lay person, if they were just listening to a recording of the service, couldn't tell a difference between an eastern orthodox liturgy held in arabic and an orthodox jewish liturgy held in hebrew. they're very, very similar.

and if i give it to you will you agree that my point proves that everyone in the gospels is jewish?What's Jewish in this respect? A follower of the Temple authorities? Someone who did not pursue the Hellenistic-Levantine lives of anybody else? A Nazarene? A Sadducee? A Pharisee? A member of any of the countless sects, offshoots, splinter groups? Only the believers or also those who just didn't really give a ****? What about the Samaritans?

What's Jewish in this respect? A follower of the Temple authorities? Someone who did not pursue the Hellenistic-Levantine lives of anybody else? A Nazarene? A Sadducee? A Pharisee? A member of any of the countless sects, offshoots, splinter groups? Only the believers or also those who just didn't really give a ****? What about the Samaritans?

i dont know, dont care, and dont see the relevance of the question.

i dont know, dont care, and dont see the relevance of the question.You claim that Yeshua could unmistakably identified as Jewish. Which Jewish? The ethnic notion or the religious? Samaritans also worshiped YHVH, but they were not considered Jewish. Many folks worshiped Greek/Roman, Graeco-Egyptian, Persian, Anatolian, etc deities (supposedly the majority of the pop), nevertheless they were considered Jewish because of their descent.

I always thought he'd be in an asylum in about 5 minutes...or WEIRD NJ. ;)

You claim that Yeshua could unmistakably identified as Jewish. Which Jewish? The ethnic notion or the religious? Samaritans also worshiped YHVH, but they were not considered Jewish. Many folks worshiped Greek/Roman, Graeco-Egyptian, Persian, Anatolian, etc deities (supposedly the majority of the pop), nevertheless they were considered Jewish because of their descent.

uhhuh

jewish enough to be circumcized. jewish enough to observe passover. jewish enough to quote scripture and debate dogma. jewish enough to diss samaritans. jewish enough to be considered jewish by his family, friends and followers.

other than that, i dont know.

FYI: If you're going to cavity search Jesus, don't forget about the holes in his hands. He could have filled them with plastic explosive and then painted them over with make-up.

FYI: If you're going to cavity search Jesus, don't forget about the holes in his hands. He could have filled them with plastic explosive and then painted them over with make-up.

...

Okay, I think even the most hardcore of suicide bombers would cringe at that one.

And he doesn't fit the profile of an al qaeda terrorist. You know, what with him being Jewish and all.

This from someone of Italian descent who would likely get tagged as Arab, along with a various latinos, Greeks and Albanians with a 5 o'clock shadow...