NationStates Jolt Archive

Islamic Fighters Quitting Somalia Front
MOGADISHU, Somalia (AP) - Islamic fighters attempting to wrest power from Somalia's internationally recognized government retreated from the main front line early Tuesday, witnesses said, a day after Ethiopian fighter jets bombed the country's two main international airports.

Troops loyal to the Council of Islamic Courts withdrew more than 30 miles to the southeast from Daynuney, a town just south of Baidoa, the government headquarters.

The Islamic forces also abandoned their main stronghold in Bur Haqaba and were forming convoys headed toward the capital, Mogadishu, residents in villages along the road told The Associated Press by telephone.

"We woke up from our sleep this morning and the town was empty of troops, not a single Islamic fighter," Ibrahim Mohamed Aden, a resident of Bur Haqaba said.

On the northern front, government and Ethiopian troops entered the town of Bulo Barde, where just two weeks ago an Islamic cleric said anyone who did not pray five times a day would be executed.

"We have withdrawn as part of our military strategy," said Sheik Mohamoud Ibrahim Suley, an official with the Islamic council in Mogadishu.

On Monday, Russian-made jets swept low over the capital at midmorning, dropping two bombs on Mogadishu International Airport, part of a major escalation in the week-old fighting. The leader of the Islamic militia, Sheik Hassan Dahir Aweys, flew into the airport shortly after the attack; it was not clear if he was an intended target.

Air strikes also hit Baledogle Airport outside Mogadishu.

"We heard the sound of the jets and then they pounded," said Abdi Mudey, a soldier with the Council of Islamic Courts, which has seized the capital and much of southern Somalia since June.

Somalia has not had an effective government since warlords overthrew longtime dictator Mohamed Siad Barre in 1991, pushing the country into anarchy. Two years ago, the United Nations helped set up a central government for the arid, impoverished nation on the Horn of Africa.

But the government has not been able to extend its influence outside the city of Baidoa, where it is headquartered about 140 miles northeast of Mogadishu. The country was largely under the control of warlords until this past summer, when the Islamic militia movement seized power.

Experts fear the conflict in Somalia could engulf the region. A recent U.N. report said 10 countries have been supplying arms and equipment to both sides of the conflict, using Somalia as a proxy battlefield. Some analysts also fear that the courts movement hopes to make Somalia a third front, after Afghanistan and Iraq, in militant Islam's war against the West.

The Islamic group's often severe interpretation of Islam is reminiscent, to some, of Afghanistan's Taliban regime - ousted by a U.S.-led campaign in 2001 for harboring Osama bin Laden. The U.S. government says four al-Qaida leaders, believed to be behind the 1998 bombing of the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, are now leaders in the Islamic militia.

On Ethiopian television Monday night, the defense ministry said troops would move toward the city of Jowhar, about 55 miles from Mogadishu. Later, Ethiopia made a push in that direction, capturing the villages of Bandiradley, Adadow and Galinsor, according Yusuf Ahmed Ali, a businessman in Adadow.

As its military forces advanced against militia fighters, Somalia's government also sought to seal its borders in order to prevent foreign Islamic militants from joining the Islamic courts forces.

Residents living along Somalia's coast have seen hundreds of militants arriving by boat, apparently in answer to calls by religious leaders to wage a holy war against Ethiopia.

It seems unlikely the government can blockade Somalia's 1,860-mile coastline - the longest in Africa. But the closures could hamper humanitarian aid deliveries to the country, where one in five children dies before age 5 from a preventable disease.

The U.N. World Food Program airlifted several tons of food and other aid into Somalia on Monday, but had not yet been notified of any border closings, agency spokesman Peter Smerdon said.

The Islamic militia, which grew out of a network of ad hoc Muslim courts, has brought a measure of law to a lawless country: The international airport reopened in July after being closed for a decade.

But leaders of the Islamic courts movement alarmed the country's neighbors by threatening to incorporate ethnic Somalis living in eastern Ethiopia, northeastern Kenya and Djibouti into a Greater Somalia.

Many Somalis are enraged by Ethiopian intervention because the countries have fought two wars over their disputed border in the past 45 years. Somalia is overwhelmingly Sunni Muslim, while Ethiopia has a large Christian minority.

Despite this friction, the Somali government - which has failed to assert any real control since it was formed two years ago - relies on its neighbor's military strength.

Earlier, Ethiopia had said it sent advisers to bolster the Somali government's outgunned military forces, but denied dispatching combat troops. The U.N., though, estimates that Ethiopia has 8,000 troops in the country.

Ethiopian Prime Minister Meles Zenawi said Sunday that his country was "forced to enter a war" with Somalia's Council of Islamic Courts after the group declared holy war on Ethiopia.

So far, Ethiopian and Somali troops have used MiG jet fighters and artillery to attack the Islamists, who have no military aircraft and can return fire only with much smaller mortars and recoilless rifles.

Meles has said he does not intend to keep his forces in Somalia for long, perhaps only a few weeks. He has told visiting dignitaries that his goal is to damage the courts' military capabilities, take away their sense of invincibility and allow both sides to return to peace talks on an even footing.

Government officials and Islamic militiamen have said hundreds of people have been killed in clashes since Tuesday, but the claims could not be independently confirmed. Aid groups put the death toll in the dozens.
Link (http://home.bellsouth.net/s/editorial.dll?pnum=1&bfromind=2214&eeid=5091715&_sitecat=1505&dcatid=0&eetype=article&render=y&ac=3&ck=&ch=ne&rg=blsadstrgt)
Well this was fast. Almost too fast... Are they on a retreat or are they regrouping to grab AA weapons in order to make another attempt.

But the line here On the northern front, government and Ethiopian troops entered the town of Bulo Barde, where just two weeks ago an Islamic cleric said anyone who did not pray five times a day would be executed. makes me glad they're losing in this case.

Well this was fast. Almost too fast... Are they on a retreat or are they regrouping to grab AA weapons in order to make another attempt.


It was kind of expected, though, since the ICU is not much more than a bunch of semi-organized, unequipped militias. They were just able to seize control because the recognized government is even worse equipped.

It'll pretty much be over when Ethiopia says it's over, but they'll probably keep a strong presence at the borders to prevent guerrilla-style raids and stuff like that. They need a victory after being whipped by Eritrea.

This means absolutely nothing at this point. Without more information about the situation you can't say they're winning, or the ICU is simply moving to a more defensible location, or what. I'd wait a few more days before I started getting excited.

Well, if they win, let's see whether the Ethiopians will do any better in running Somalia. Because the Baidoa "government" certainly has done nothing to that effect in the past years.

And the ICU is a federation of independent Islamic courts, run by independent Islamic judges. In some courts you have radicals like the one in the OP, in others you have moderates.

Ethiopia can't feed their own people yet feel it's a good plan to launch another war against yet another neighbour.

Moronic.

Whatever happens in the short term - I think we can all safely say there's going to be a lot more humanitarian appeals fro aid for the region in the next few years.

So they seem to be losing one battle. The courts aren't just going to disappear. However, if we do have some giant proxy war in East Africa, I don't think there'll be much of a Somalia for anyone to control.

Just so long as it doesn't spill over. The whole area's such a mess that one good war could turn the entire region into one big lawless morass for decades.

Just so long as it doesn't spill over. The whole area's such a mess that one good war could turn the entire region into one big lawless morass for decades.
Too late for that...

It's the Taliban all over again. And let's hope whoever is in charge of cleaning up the mess learns the lessons from Il Douche's arrogance and preoccupation with one-upping Daddy and sticks to the objective from start to finish.

Well, let's hope this turns into a big cold war style proxy war between Islamist states like Saudi Arabia and Iran and the US. That could be fun. Probably not for the Africans, but nobody really cares about them, right?

Well, let's hope this turns into a big cold war style proxy war between Islamist states like Saudi Arabia and Iran and the US. That could be fun. Probably not for the Africans, but nobody really cares about them, right?

Not since the League of Nations kept Italy out of Ethiopia back in the ... oh, wait ...

They aren't on the retreat. They are pulling back as part of their strategy. Mark my words, the Islamic forces will be victorious in this struggle.

They aren't on the retreat. They are pulling back as part of their strategy. Mark my words, the Islamic forces will be victorious in this struggle.

what are you basing that on?

what are you basing that on?

Probably blind faith. After all, if the ICU were willing to shoot people for watching the world's cup in the name of Allah, he owes them a favor, no?

what are you basing that on?

The fact they are guided by Allah. Allah protects those who trust in him.

Thank God for Ethiopia. And Merry Christmas to all my Ethiopian Orthodox brothers and sisters.

The fact they are guided by Allah. Allah protects those who trust in him.

Even oppressive kooks like the Taliban, which the IC is looking like a franchise of? Okay, you're starting to sound a little too Wahhabist and giving all the "|\/|0zl3|\/|z r 3b1l" people here plenty of ammunition.

Probably blind faith. After all, if the ICU were willing to shoot people for watching the world's cup in the name of Allah, he owes them a favor, no?

In fairness that was only one court (out of 36 different ones) - the rest rounded on them and told them: "Like fuck you are"

Most are moderates. Calling them It's the Taliban all over again. or a franchise of the Taliban is grossly inaccurate.

The fact they are guided by Allah. Allah protects those who trust in him.

There is no Allah :p

Somalians distrust the current government ever since it was created in Kenya (a neighboring country to Somalia). The man that was elected as the president (Mr. Abdullahi Yusuf) was an anarchist general while Somalia was intact (he tried to lead a coup while Somalia was in a war with Ethiopia). When that coup was foiled, he ran to Ethiopia, leaving his loyal fellow traitors to their fate. Fifteen years ago, Somalia broke down (civil war) and fifteen years fast-forward, Mr. Abdullahi Yusuf is vying to become the president of Somalia and who is he's sole backer? ETHIOPIA (wow, aint that a surprise) Somalia’s archenemy. He's no different from the other warlords that were kicked out of Mogadishu on June 5 (Some of those warlords confessed that America supplied them $100,000 a month). Somalians support the Islamic Courts because they see them as their saviors from those warlords who kept Somalia in the dark for 15 years. These warlords kept the country's airports, ports, hotels, villas, banks, and almost everything else to themselves. How would non-Somalis feel if they experienced this horrific scenario? For 15 years of turmoil, the closes western intervention was the UN and US assistance in operation restore hope and they left the country when the tough got going. All those years without any news coverage of any sorts, the Somalians have felt that they were forgotten but they remained resolute. They searched for something that will put an end to this chaos (looting, rape, murder, clan-warfare, arms race, and etc) and guess who stood up and challenged these warlords? the Islamic Courts. The Islamic Courts are made up of different clan members who normally would be at each others throats if it weren't for the only unifying thing in Somalia, religion. Aside religion, Somalians can quickly identify themselves as one when there’s a foreign threat from non Somalis. As the Islamic Courts are gaining support from the oppressed Somalians, Western nations stick their nose at what is going on within Somalia (ever since Somalia was abandoned by its ally the US and the UN) ever since things are turning better, and they are quick to disapprove the Islamic Courts. This move (Western nations being against the Islamic Courts) only make the Somalians more suspicious about Western intentions, do they want the status quos in Somalia to remain? Most Somalians now believe that Western governments along with Ethiopia (as their lap dog) appose a Somalia without Anarchy, a Somalia without warlords, and a Somalia free from foreign influence. I would have to say to the Somali people in Somalia, you finally found an antidote to the warlord issue and some nations don’t like what you’re doing for yourselves, so pay no mind and move on.

There is no Allah :p

So there's no God? You're not only attacking Muslims but anyone who believes there's a God. :p

YAY ETHIOPIA! Rasta would be proud!

what are you basing that on?

The unshakable belief that all you have to do is believe in Allah and he will take care of everything.....like training, equipment, strategy, actual performance...

I mean, come on, look at the track record of islamist armies in modern times (Arab armies against Israel, Pak against India etc) ...jeez...how stupid can u be...:p

They aren't on the retreat. They are pulling back as part of their strategy. Mark my words, the Islamic forces will be victorious in this struggle.

I'd have to say that based on the fact that the Ethiopians have air superiority, even if it's just because of a handful if MiGs and Hinds, they've got the upper hand. Their military is relatively disciplined, with some training from US special forces.

Not only that, but the Ethiopians are concerned about conflict spilling over into their country, and if they can drive these incompetents back, they Ethiopian troops will feel that their own families are somewhat safer.

I mean, come on, look at the track record of islamist armies in modern times (Arab armies against Israel, Pak against India etc) ...jeez...how stupid can u be...:p

Chechnya, Afghanistan vs. USSR and those pesky Iranian civilians who didn't die from the Iraqi chemicals :mad:

I say we give them both Chemical weapons and see whose the most resilient after all its the U.N/league of nations not watching way!

The fact they are guided by Allah. Allah protects those who trust in him.

Look at the track record of Islamic armies over the past milennia. It's not good. The only ones with a solid track record are the Turks, and they're spotty.

Look at the track record of Islamic armies over the past milennia. It's not good. The only ones with a solid track record are the Turks, and they're spotty.

If all you've got for a well-behaved Islamic army is the Turks, you're pretty much toast.

So there's no God? You're not only attacking Muslims but anyone who believes there's a God. :p

No, he's stating his belief. If he wanted to attack those who believe in god he'd have said something like "Believing in god is retarded". That's the problem with you religious types. Any dissenting opinion is seen as an attack on you. Grow a thicker skin and realize that your beliefs aren't privileged over the beliefs of others.

I'd have to say that based on the fact that the Ethiopians have air superiority, even if it's just because of a handful if MiGs and Hinds, they've got the upper hand. Their military is relatively disciplined, with some training from US special forces.

:eek: have I travelled back in time!?

Not only that, but the Ethiopians are concerned about conflict spilling over into their country, and if they can drive these incompetents back, they Ethiopian troops will feel that their own families are somewhat safer.

or we could find a religious war erupting as the Ethiopia is a very religious nation and a Christian one at that maybe the Ethiopian troops won’t be very kind to Islam in the country

If all you've got for a well-behaved Islamic army is the Turks, you're pretty much toast.

Aye.

The only problems that western armies have had in the Islamic world are problems of occupation, not problems of military engagements. No Muslim army has engaged a western force in the field and had success since the Crusades.

SNIP

I think it was a joke hence the: :p

:eek: have I travelled back in time!?


No, you actually haven't. The US is providing support to the Ethiopian government in the form of training to Ethipian troops, and has been doing so since after the September 11 attacks.



or we could find a religious war erupting as the Ethiopia is a very religious nation and a Christian one at that maybe the Ethiopian troops won’t be very kind to Islam in the country

Who knows. I'm not an Africa specialist.

I think it was a joke hence the: :p

Oh. Ok.

Who knows. I'm not an Africa specialist.

Nonetheless, I'm sure you understand the historical animosity between these two and how they treated each other and other neighbours based purely on the religion of their enemy..... right?

It wasn't peachy, and this isn't going to be either.

Nonetheless, I'm sure you understand the historical animosity between these two and how they treated each other and other neighbours based purely on the religion of their enemy..... right?

It wasn't peachy, and this isn't going to be either.

Yeah, pretty much.

No, you actually haven't. The US is providing support to the Ethiopian government in the form of training to Ethipian troops, and has been doing so since after the September 11 attacks.

just like the USSR with the communist Afghans! (though Somalia has many more neighbours willing to help them and a sea route)

Who knows. I'm not an Africa specialist.

all you need to know is Africa is spilt in half with both sides being bad

There is no Allah :p

So there's no God? You're not only attacking Muslims but anyone who believes there's a God. :p

No, he's stating his belief. If he wanted to attack those who believe in god he'd have said something like "Believing in god is retarded". That's the problem with you religious types. Any dissenting opinion is seen as an attack on you. Grow a thicker skin and realize that your beliefs aren't privileged over the beliefs of others.

Yes he is attacking people that believe in god, and the way you try to interpret what he said is falsifying. Any Argument that lacks rational is baseless. What else should I see it as, when nonbelievers get out of line. If you do not belief in god fine with you but how will that help your case when you prance around "There is no Allah :p", can you prove it? I wonder if that's not an attack on my beliefs then I don't know what it is. If your belief is that you don't believe in god, then keep that to yourself like religious folks, they keep their regions to themselves.

Yes he is attacking people that believe in god, and the way you try to interpret what he said is falsifying. Any Argument that lacks rational is baseless. What else should I see it as, when nonbelievers get out of line. If you do not belief in god fine with you but how will that help your case when you prance around "There is no Allah :p", can you prove it? I wonder if that's not an attack on my beliefs then I don't know what it is. If your belief is that you don't believe in god, then keep that to yourself like religious folks, they keep their regions to themselves.

You joined us in August and you have fewer than 200 posts. You will see statements like New Mitanni's from time to time if you stay with us. Drunk Commies was a little harsh but he's right, you shouldn't take what passes for debate here personally. I'm sure you understand that since September 11th a lot of Americans have, unfortunately, decided than anything even faintly related to Islam is a target for ridicule and attack. I believe most Americans don't share that view. Sadly, the ones who do are louder than the others.

:eek: have I travelled back in time!?



or we could find a religious war erupting as the Ethiopia is a very religious nation and a Christian one at that maybe the Ethiopian troops won’t be very kind to Islam in the country

Not really, Muslims and Christians get along in Ethiopia. Secondly, Ethiopian Muslims represent half the Ethiopian population (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/et.html). I wouldn't expect Ethiopia would use "Christianity" as a pretext to go to war, or kill Somalian Muslims, not likely when they have a sizeable Muslims within their own country. Ethiopia would use the extremist Muslims threat to convince Western countries not to condemn Ethiopia's illegal actions in Somalia. Western countries would turn a blind eye to Ethiopia's illegal actions just like the Israel/ Lebanon war. Arab countries are keeping an eye on this because Somalia is one of a few African countries that belong to the Arab League.

The fact they are guided by Allah. Allah protects those who trust in him. ...

The only problems that western armies have had in the Islamic world are problems of occupation, not problems of military engagements. No Muslim army has engaged a western force in the field and had success since the Crusades.

Turkish expansion into the Christian Balkans didn't end until the Battle of Vienna in 1683 (well technically the Treaty of Karlowitz of 1699, but the battle was the turning point). It was only at that point that the West began to establish reliable military superiority over the Muslim world.

But if we're not speaking in general and instead looking at battles, I direct you to the Battle of Gallipoli that ended in 1915, with Turkish forces victorious over Commonwealth, French, Russian and ANZAC forces.

Chechnya

That is not a conventional military engagement. The Russian inability to pacify the civilian Chechens != victory for Checen rebels. Bottomline is that Chechnya is still under Russian control.

Afghanistan vs. USSR

Without CIA funding and arming the jihadis wouldn't have gotten anywhere. Even then, the Soviets did not lose battles. They could not sustain the war effort and withdrew due to other factors back home. That the jihadis brought down the USSR is a big myth.


and those pesky Iranian civilians who didn't die from the Iraqi chemicals :mad:

Yeah, because the Iraqis are not muslims. :rolleyes:

The fact that the Iraqis and Iranians fought for fricking TEN years to a STALEMATE does not give any merit to both their armies.

Turkish expansion into the Christian Balkans didn't end until the Battle of Vienna in 1683 (well technically the Treaty of Karlowitz of 1699, but the battle was the turning point). It was only at that point that the West began to establish reliable military superiority over the Muslim world.

But if we're not speaking in general and instead looking at battles, I direct you to the Battle of Gallipoli that ended in 1915, with Turkish forces victorious over Commonwealth, French, Russian and ANZAC forces.

As I said in a prior post, I was referring to non-Turkic Muslim forces. I should have specified in the post, but I didn't because I'd assumed it would be inferred.

all you need to know is Africa is spilt in half with both sides being bad"Spilt" being the main operative. "Fuck them tribes".

You joined us in August and you have fewer than 200 posts. You will see statements like New Mitanni's from time to time if you stay with us. Drunk Commies was a little harsh but he's right, you shouldn't take what passes for debate here personally. I'm sure you understand that since September 11th a lot of Americans have, unfortunately, decided than anything even faintly related to Islam is a target for ridicule and attack. I believe most Americans don't share that view. Sadly, the ones who do are louder than the others.

Understood, but I won't shy away from matters that are discussed (especially ones that attack my faith), regardless of my religous background. I try to be honest, rational and won't let my emotions take the best of me. I'm aware that the majority of American people are good and understading.

That is not a conventional military engagement. The Russian inability to pacify the civilian Chechens != victory for Checen rebels. Bottomline is that Chechnya is still under Russian control.
Like Iraq is under American control? Snap out of it man. You type some intelligent posts now and then.

Like Iraq is under American control? Snap out of it man. You type some intelligent posts now and then.
Well, Iraq isn't under control of the insurgents either. A victory for them would be the establishment of a Muslim theocratic state, just like they're trying to do in Chechnya.

Yes he is attacking people that believe in god, and the way you try to interpret what he said is falsifying. Any Argument that lacks rational is baseless. What else should I see it as, when nonbelievers get out of line. If you do not belief in god fine with you but how will that help your case when you prance around "There is no Allah :p", can you prove it? I wonder if that's not an attack on my beliefs then I don't know what it is. If your belief is that you don't believe in god, then keep that to yourself like religious folks, they keep their regions to themselves.

No, he's not. That's why idiots get violent when someone makes a cartoon. Because they can't deal with a dissenting opinion.

Nobody can prove a negative. Prove right now that I don't own an invisible miniature tyrannosaurus rex. Go ahead.

Your beliefs aren't priveleged. Anyone who wants to can disagree with them.

No, he's not. That's why idiots get violent when someone makes a cartoon. Because they can't deal with a dissenting opinion.

Nobody can prove a negative. Prove right now that I don't own an invisible miniature tyrannosaurus rex. Go ahead.

Your beliefs aren't priveleged. Anyone who wants to can disagree with them.

i find it funny when the pope quotes someone else, i think it was constantine not sure though, saying that the religion of Islam is a violent religion. the muslims get mad, and to show the pope that they are not violent, they go around killing people burning building and flags, and yelling death the the pope!

Yes he is attacking people that believe in god, and the way you try to interpret what he said is falsifying. Any Argument that lacks rational is baseless. What else should I see it as, when nonbelievers get out of line. If you do not belief in god fine with you but how will that help your case when you prance around "There is no Allah :p", can you prove it? I wonder if that's not an attack on my beliefs then I don't know what it is. If your belief is that you don't believe in god, then keep that to yourself like religious folks, they keep their regions to themselves.

If religious folks did keep it to themselves, Atheists such as myself wouldn't have to speak out. But if there's one thing I see every day, it's theists who WON'T "Keep it to themselves", but instead insist on shoving their superstitious CRAP down my throat.

There is no god, no supernatural of any kind, no heaven no hell, no soul, no afterlife, NOTHING beyond this physical universe we inhabit. That's my statement of belief. If you can handle it, cool. If not, I really don't care.

Maybe they want to show that the religion of Islam are`nt violent, but ironic? They always talk about killing infidels, but they kill more muslims then christians. ITS ALL A CONSPIRACY

i find it funny when the pope quotes someone else, i think it was constantine not sure though, saying that the religion of Islam is a violent religion. the muslims get mad, and to show the pope that they are not violent, they go around killing people burning building and flags, and yelling death the the pope!

It wasn't Constantine. Islam isn't that old. It was some Byzantine king or something.

Anyway, that's not all Muslims, it's only the savages who live in those backward, primitive countries.

The fact [the ICU] are guided by Allah. Allah protects those who trust in him.

Allow me.

I summon you, William Shakespeare, England's foremost playwright, whose intelligence once shed light to much darkness, to, once again, shed light unto the darkness my opponent supports...

Soviestan's Honor!

Friends, NSers, users, lend me your eyes.
I come to support fundamentalism, not to attack it.
The evil that fundamentalists do lives after them;
The good is oft interrèd with their bones.
So let it be with the ICU. The noble Soviestan
Hath told you fundamentalism is the true way of Islam.
If it is so, it is sincere belief,
though grievously hath the ICU answered it.
Here, under leave of Soviestan and the rest—
For Soviestan is an honorable man;
So are they all, all honorable men—
Come I to speak of the Somali conflict.
The Qur'an says that anyone that follows a good path is saved.
But Soviestan says it is otherwise and dependent upon religion,
And Soviestan is an honorable man.
Islam promotes logic and compassion in the lines of the Quran,
As well as ordering the faithful not to, unless in defense, kill.
Did this in the Quran seem un-Islamic?
Whenever Muslims get to power, the Quran includes freedom of religion.
Haram should be made of sterner stuff.
Yet Soviestan says it is un-Islamic,
And Soviestan is an honorable man.
You all did see that in Somalia
A supposed Cleric called for the execution,
Of those that do not pray five times a day. Was this Islamic?
Yet Soviestan says fundamentalism is the true way of Islam,
And, sure, he is an honorable man.
I speak not to disprove what Soviestan spoke,
But here I am to speak what I do know.
Islam is the religion of many people, not without cause.
What cause guides you then to handpick its worse sides?
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason. Bear with me.
My heart is in the coffin there with true Islam,
And I must pause till it come back to me.

(The fun part is I, an occultist that, while recognizing Islam as a cultured religion, is not a Muslim, know more about Islam than fundamentalists. Go figure.)

Nonetheless, I'm sure you understand the historical animosity between these two and how they treated each other and other neighbours based purely on the religion of their enemy..... right?

It wasn't peachy, and this isn't going to be either.

The historical animosity between the two has little to do with religion.

No, he's not. That's why idiots get violent when someone makes a cartoon. Because they can't deal with a dissenting opinion.

Nobody can prove a negative. Prove right now that I don't own an invisible miniature tyrannosaurus rex. Go ahead.

Your beliefs aren't priveleged. Anyone who wants to can disagree with them.

First of all, you need to calm down and stop the name callings; we're in a debate that you started. Secondly, the problem here is not that I can't deal with a dissenting opinion, far from it; the problem is when someone tries to enforce their beliefs onto someone else. Do I also have to agree everything someone says? No, but instead of barring that person I should engage that person and try to understand where that person is coming from. What we're doing here is far different from the cartoon incident, what we have here is a medium in which we can have a rational debate; the people that went all violent did not. You go again insulting god, how does that help your purpose? Do you know how much similar you are to what your against? Did you choose this argument to just gain attention? About the invincible miniature tyrannosaurus rex, all I would have to say is, you could've used a better example... this one is too easy to counter.

First of all, you need to calm down and stop the name callings; we're in a debate that you started. Secondly, the problem here is not that I can't deal with a dissenting opinion, far from it; the problem is when someone tries to enforce their beliefs onto someone else. Do I also have to agree everything someone says? No, but instead of barring that person I should engage that person and try to understand where that person is coming from. What we're doing here is far different from the cartoon incident, what we have here is a medium in which we can have a rational debate; the people that went all violent did not. You go again insulting god, how does that help your purpose? Do you know how much similar you are to what your against? Did you choose this argument to just gain attention? About the invincible miniature tyrannosaurus rex, all I would have to say is, you could've used a better example... this one is too easy to counter.

I never called you anything. Unless you're one of those who advocates violence when cartoons are printed. I did call them idiots, and I could have used harsher language.

I also never insulted any god. Stating that I believe that no gods exist isn't an insult, it's my point of view. Insulting gods consists of statements like "Jesus sucks and Allah swallows". You'll notice I didn't state that. I simply said that I don't believe in the existence of gods.

If the T-Rex argument is so easy to counter, counter it.

If religious folks did keep it to themselves, Atheists such as myself wouldn't have to speak out. But if there's one thing I see every day, it's theists who WON'T "Keep it to themselves", but instead insist on shoving their superstitious CRAP down my throat.

There is no god, no supernatural of any kind, no heaven no hell, no soul, no afterlife, NOTHING beyond this physical universe we inhabit. That's my statement of belief. If you can handle it, cool. If not, I really don't care.

I have nothing against atheist people, I have many friends that are atheist and we make fun of each others beliefs (friendly jokes) even though it's hard for me because they don't have that many things to belief. Yes I do see religious people telling atheist folks how wrong they are and the consequences of not believing, but I disagree with them. I follow "to each his own". What I want to understand is, is it right for atheists do the same thing they hate and go about telling believers that there’s no god?

I have nothing against atheist people, I have many friends that are atheist and we make fun of each others beliefs (friendly jokes) even though it's hard for me because they don't have that many things to belief. Yes I do see religious people telling atheist folks how wrong they are and the consequences of not believing, but I disagree with them. I follow "to each his own". What I want to understand is, is it right for atheists do the same thing they hate and go about telling believers that there’s no god?

I know that this is not directed at me, but I feel the need to answer anyway. It's right to express your beliefs. If you believe that there is a god, you're free to tell folks. For those of us who disagree, we're free to say you're wrong.

One person on this thread said that there is no god and all of a sudden you consider it an attack on believers and on god. That's bullshit. You're too thin skinned. You act as if anyone stating an opinion that disagrees with yours is attacking you and what you hold sacred. You're too thin skinned and need to grow up a bit.

Aye.

The only problems that western armies have had in the Islamic world are problems of occupation, not problems of military engagements. No Muslim army has engaged a western force in the field and had success since the Crusades.

Gallipoli

The historical animosity between the two has little to do with religion.

Well it does in part. Its been a handy whipping tool used by their respective leaders in the past to justify ordinary power play and "who has the bigger dick" regional politics.

I never called you anything. Unless you're one of those who advocates violence when cartoons are printed. I did call them idiots, and I could have used harsher language.

I also never insulted any god. Stating that I believe that no gods exist isn't an insult, it's my point of view. Insulting gods consists of statements like "Jesus sucks and Allah swallows". You'll notice I didn't state that. I simply said that I don't believe in the existence of gods.

If the T-Rex argument is so easy to counter, counter it.

First of all (I believe I stated this before, but not to you I guess) I have nothing against people that don't believe in god. Secondly, I have a feeling you are trying to veer me off the topic we’re supposed to be discussing about. The issue is between non believers and believers not Christianity and Islam (that's the believers' mess and it’s between them to solve it) and disapproving the existence of invincible T-Rex. Is it alright for non believers to overstep the line and tell believers that there is no god just like there’s a line for believers not to cross against nonbelievers?

First of all (I believe I stated this before, but not to you I guess) I have nothing against people that don't believe in god. Secondly, I have a feeling you are trying to veer me off the topic we’re supposed to be discussing about. The issue is between non believers and believers not Christianity and Islam (that's the believers' mess and it’s between them to solve it) and disapproving the existence of invincible T-Rex. Is it alright for non believers to overstep the line and tell believers that there is no god just like there’s a line for believers not to cross against nonbelievers?

Both have the right to state their opinions. Neither believer or non-believer should be prevented from exercising free speech.

could we please get back on the thread topic? this syupid arguing has just about ruined the thread (again)

could we please get back on the thread topic? this syupid arguing has just about ruined the thread (again)

Sorry. I'm done.

could we please get back on the thread topic? this syupid arguing has just about ruined the thread (again)

Meh, and here I had prepared my best move... :p

Like Iraq is under American control? Snap out of it man. You type some intelligent posts now and then.

There is control and there is denial of control. Both the US army and the Iraqi insurgents have denial of control but not control. Both cannot claim victory without using semantics (redefining objectives to make it a "victory"). In purely military terms, it is the US that has won every engagement with the insurgents.

No way you can tell that Chechens/Iraqis are winning. Where is the independant state of Chechnya and the sunni islamist theocratic state of Iraq? Are they even close to achieving those aims as things stand now? I think not.

Meh, and here I had prepared my best move... :p

Use it on the ethiopians, somalians, or eretrians. Whichever side you chose it, it'll be more interesting than watching the same goddamned argument break out every thirty seconds in every thread we start.:D

There is control and there is denial of control. Both the US army and the Iraqi insurgents have denial of control but not control. Both cannot claim victory without using semantics (redefining objectives to make it a "victory"). In purely military terms, it is the US that has won every engagement with the insurgents.

No way you can tell that Chechens/Iraqis are winning. Where is the independant state of Chechnya and the sunni islamist theocratic state of Iraq? Are they even close to achieving those aims as things stand now? I think not.


In purely military terms the US isn't winning. We lose shitpots of people without ever seeing the enemy. That's not winning. I am wopndering if a sim;liar thing won't occur in Somolia now. I don't think the ethiopians can do much more than win the battle--and then go home. That means they won't be able to prevent the same thing from happening again and again...

Use it on the ethiopians, somalians, or eretrians. Whichever side you chose it, it'll be more interesting than watching the same goddamned argument break out every thirty seconds in every thread we start.:D

It was the one in page 4...

In purely military terms the US isn't winning. We lose shitpots of people without ever seeing the enemy. That's not winning. I am wopndering if a sim;liar thing won't occur in Somolia now. I don't think the ethiopians can do much more than win the battle--and then go home. That means they won't be able to prevent the same thing from happening again and again...

Shitpots of people? In like three years we've lost some 3000 troops in Iraq, and in the process our military has destroyed the Iraqi military, toppled the government, and killed thousands upon thousands of insurgents. The only problem is that there are always more insurgents being recruited and more terrorists crossing the border.

Last time the US intervened in Somaia some 18 US Army Rangers died, but over a thousand Somail gunmen were killed. Then the US decided it wasn't worth the cost to save that little, insignificant country so they left.

I have nothing against atheist people, I have many friends that are atheist and we make fun of each others beliefs (friendly jokes) even though it's hard for me because they don't have that many things to belief. Yes I do see religious people telling atheist folks how wrong they are and the consequences of not believing, but I disagree with them. I follow "to each his own". What I want to understand is, is it right for atheists do the same thing they hate and go about telling believers that there’s no god?

To do so for no reason, no, that isn't right, and is exactly the same kind of rudeness. Personally, I much prefer to be polite.

However, if someone makes a decision or an argument that affects or is presented to me, and part of that decision or argument is based on their belief structure, then I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing out that not everyone shares that belief - or any belief. If someone says "We will do it this way, because god says so" it IS a perfectly good reply to say "There is no god." You will have made your point perfectly clear - "not only do I reject your reasoning, but no reasons based upon the same basis will be accepted".

Soviestan was alluding to an increased chance of victory due to Islam being the word of god. "There is no god" rejects this reasoning, and the concept of god. However, I would not call it an attack on his (or your) faith, unless it was followed by a denigration of Islam in specific or religion in general.

Shitpots of people? In like three years we've lost some 3000 troops in Iraq, and in the process our military has destroyed the Iraqi military, toppled the government, and killed thousands upon thousands of insurgents. The only problem is that there are always more insurgents being recruited and more terrorists crossing the border.

Last time the US intervened in Somaia some 18 US Army Rangers died, but over a thousand Somail gunmen were killed. Then the US decided it wasn't worth the cost to save that little, insignificant country so they left.

we have lost most of our people AFTER the initial invasion. The great majority of THEM are IED casualties. And the number of wounded is greatly larger than dead (3k vs 22k) and most of them are IED's as well. We don't see the enemy nearly as often as we would like.
And most insurgents are Iraqi. Ex Iraqi military seems to be the best recruiting ground.

You don't need to explain to me what happened on Oct 3. I was involved.
We decided to pull out because the American public hadn't become hardened to the idea of taking casualties because they didn't realize that we were in a war, because our governemnt hesitated to call it that. After 9/11 we had no choice. Ethiopia is well aware of what they are facing, but I am not sure they could invade somalia safely...

i find it funny when the pope quotes someone else, i think it was constantine not sure though, saying that the religion of Islam is a violent religion. the muslims get mad, and to show the pope that they are not violent, they go around killing people burning building and flags, and yelling death the the pope!

I also find it funny how the Pope tried to be all innocent and cute after the Muslim reactions when really he knew how far his instigation would travel especially when there was a lesson to be learned from the cartoon incident. It's also funny when he said that he was expecting a dialogue between the two religions while making a smug remark against Islam. A dialogue? This is the man who is against Turkey from joining the EU because Turkey is a Muslim nation (so much of bridging the two religions). Sadly the news is attracted to enraged people that burn effigies in public, but they haven't shown all the peaceful demonstrations made by Muslims throughout the world. When the news always does that, I always want to know, what are their intentions?, they always show a few selected areas (Pakistan and Iran) and how they react (burning flags and sort). Are Christians violent because all the countries that are responsible for the Iraqi chaos are led by Christian forces? We could play the pointing finger game anytime and get no results.

America has about two thousand troops stationed in Djibouti, an African country north of Somalia. If they have to intervene or be involved, these forces are the closest to Somalia. America is more likely to be involved in sending money to different players and information. Like, how else the Ethiopian Jets knew where to exactly strike without information (they don't have any satellites).

Look at the track record of Islamic armies over the past milennia. It's not good. The only ones with a solid track record are the Turks, and they're spotty.

Tamerlane did pretty damn well. And by pretty damn well I mean amazing.

Like, how else the Ethiopian Jets knew where to exactly strike without information (they don't have any satellites).
Yeah, I suppose an airport isn't the most obvious of targets. :p

America has about two thousand troops stationed in Djibouti, an African country north of Somalia. If they have to intervene or be involved, these forces are the closest to Somalia. America is more likely to be involved in sending money to different players and information. Like, how else the Ethiopian Jets knew where to exactly strike without information (they don't have any satellites).


We don't have any warfighters in Djibouti. We have command and control. It is expanding but it's not exactly going to be fort bragg.

The Camp Lemonier staff is responsible for the expansion, upkeep, and logistics support of the base. A U.S. Marine Provisional Security Company is responsible for providing security for the Camp and its local environs.

Other tenant commands include the CJTF-HOA staff, a U.S. Navy Seabee battalion, a U.S. Army C-26 detachment, a U.S. Marine heavy-lift helicopter (CH-53) detachment, a U.S. Navy P-3 detachment (technically a part of NAVCENT, and a U.S. Air Force HC-130 detachment
at least officially. And unofficially we could only support a fairly small group of operators there. We'd have to move people in from elsewhere. As for "where to target" Ethiopia has plenty of knowledge about what is where in somolia. The airport is on all international maps, and everything you would need to hit (runways, radio control, fuel--that's all on the maps)
We may well be giving them what we have, but that's pretty sparse.

Lets be honest, Ethiopia has rushed into a war that it cannot participate under for too long. The Islamists have all the time and the patience to wait this one out. The Ethiopians claim that they have protected the small town called Baidoa from Islamist aggression, ok, what about Magadishu? Who has the guts to enter that city, fight the militias and kick them out. This is Somali domain, they have been fighting amongs themselves in that city for over 15 years and by now they know every tricks of urban combat. I think this is a trap for the Ethiopians, to make them feel superior.

Yeah, I suppose an airport isn't the most obvious of targets. :p

A lot of things might change when Somalia ceased to function for 16 years. Besides the Ethiopians claimed that there were foreign Islamists traveling in and out from that airport. Either that was just an excuse or they really got hard evidence.

I think they are just trying to build a bit of a buffer zone so the militias can't get to them as easily.
and the Ethiops weren't the only people who believed the about the airports, I think...

I'm pretty sure they're "retreating" like the Taliban - so they'll be back in a bit, with more support and more weapons.

Nothing is worse then when militias turn into guerilla fighters, as you can see, the ICU have fought a conventional war with the Ethiopians and their allies. With the use of jets and helicopters and heavy tanks, the ICU has met their challenge but they won't just surrender like that. This is what the leader of the ICU had to say "Since Ethiopia started using air power and heavy artillery, we have changed our tactics and are getting ready for a long war" and guerilla warfare is next, hit them here, hit them there and let casualties mount up. Too bad for the Ethiopians.

eh heh. He who lives to fight another day and all that...

I'm pretty sure they're "retreating" like the Taliban - so they'll be back in a bit, with more support and more weapons.

The difference with the Taliban is that, the ICU won't go into hibernation.

America has about two thousand troops stationed in Djibouti, an African country north of Somalia. If they have to intervene or be involved, these forces are the closest to Somalia. America is more likely to be involved in sending money to different players and information. Like, how else the Ethiopian Jets knew where to exactly strike without information (they don't have any satellites).
Bush dispatched another Carrier fleet. Some say it's for Iran... I think it's for this.

Yeah, I suppose an airport isn't the most obvious of targets. :p Well considering their leader supposedly landed seconds later...

Somalia will not turn into a situation with Ethiopian troops fighting a guerilla insurgency from Islamist fighters. This is for two basic reasons.

First off, the Council of Islamic Courts is trying to run a day-to-day government in Somalia, thus they cannot really go into hiding. Representatives of the ICs have to be seen out and about in the populace or they will have no actual influence. Certain militia groups could possibly do some guerilla tactics, but anyone trying to run a government has to be visible and accessible.

Secondly, Ethiopia is not interested in occupying Somalia. That would just be silly. They are there to make sure the Islamic Courts do not try to spill over into Ethiopia. All Ethiopia has to do is hit them hard enough to erode support by shaking the public perception of the power the Islamists have. After a few military engagements, Ethiopia can simply pull back for a while. When they become a threat to Ethiopia’s boarders again, another quick military strike or two just to give a warning smack not to mess with Ethiopia is all that is needed.

Guerilla tactics require the ability to remain hidden and having a relatively static occupying force. If the guerillas cannot stay hidden, and the invading force is not trying to hold ground and occupy civilian population centers, it is essentially a conventional battle – and that favors Ethiopia by a wide margin.

Well considering their leader supposedly landed seconds later...
Hmm, I didn't know that. I guess there might be a chance of some underhanded affairs going on.

I just watched the Newshour with Jim Lehrer, and they had two guys talking about the ICU and Ethiopia. I liked it, because it supported what I was saying before. ;)
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/africa/july-dec06/somalia_12-26.html
ABDI SAMATAR, University of Minnesota: I think, Ray, the overwhelming majority of them would like to see a stable state. And they have written papers -- that's all we can go on with -- which says that they will want the Somali people to elect their own governments, and it's the government in Baidoa is a warlord-compromised government that was created in Kenya.

And so my sense is that the vast majority of the folks in Islamic Courts really at the end want to see a country in which its basic principles are based on Islam but which can have a democratic constitution at the end. And there's some differences of opinion among the Islamic Courts on that call.

[...]

ABDI SAMATAR: There are two reasons, Ray, why the Ethiopian government has done this. The first one is that it took part in the conference which created the Somali government in Kenya and virtually handpicked the leadership of that government, so it would like to see a government of Somalia that's beholden to it to be in place in Mogadishu and the rest of the country.

The second reason why Prime Minister Meles Zenawi did this is to focus attention away from the problems Ethiopia has. This is a country and a government in which international human rights groups have documented huge violations of human rights, and that the opposition members of parliament in Ethiopia are against this war, and others who are appointed or elected as members of parliament in Ethiopia are imprisoned.

So there are an incredible number of problems in Ethiopia itself. So this provides attention away from that. Those are the two reasons why Mr. Meles Zenawi has sent the troops to Somalia.

[...]

AKWE AMOSU: Well, there are two cases that he might make. One is that there is -- nearly 50 percent of the population in Ethiopia is Muslim. And he doesn't want to see an aggressively jihadist Islamic organization running the country next door, particularly as his neighborhood -- and this is the second point -- of the Ogaden, which is inside Ethiopian territory, is a Somali area.

And there are voices in Somali, have been on many occasions, who advocate a greater Somalia and an annexation of some of these areas where Somalis live across borders.

And so, from the point of view of Prime Minister Meles Zenawi, these are justifications for him to say, you know, he needs to be proactive in defending his territorial integrity, though it has to be said a great many, very skeptical voices in Ethiopia and in the region are saying that actually that's a cover for a much more aggressive desire to confront his enemies via Somalia, for example, Eritrea, which is actively funding anti-Ethiopian and ICU forces in Somalia, and to try and get its own favored government, the Baidoa government, into Mogadishu.

hmmmm...the more I think about this development......a frontline islamist state in Africa (somalia) is now going to attract the madrassa graduates and jannat seekers who would otherwise fight in Iraq/Afg. Nice. All it needs is a AQ tape from #1/#2 saying how the kafirs will be defeated in Africa.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N27278786.htm
U.S. signals support for Ethiopia in Somalia

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6306760,00.html
Somalia Government Advances on Capital

Robert Gates at work?

Robert Gates at work?

It's got the fingerprints of low impact US involvement all over it. It's a safe bet.

I'd have to say that based on the fact that the Ethiopians have air superiority, even if it's just because of a handful if MiGs and Hinds, they've got the upper hand. Their military is relatively disciplined, with some training from US special forces.

Not only that, but the Ethiopians are concerned about conflict spilling over into their country, and if they can drive these incompetents back, they Ethiopian troops will feel that their own families are somewhat safer.

you may doubt me now, but with time, Muslims will be victorious. The Ethiopians are nothing compared to the other side. Just look at recent history. Hezbollah was arguably victorious over the IDF and insurgents, I think most would agree are winning or have already won in Iraq. Its only matter of time InshAllah until an Islamic government is established and is successful in Somalia.

you may doubt me now, but with time, Muslims will be victorious. The Ethiopians are nothing compared to the other side. Just look at recent history. Hezbollah was arguably victorious over the IDF and insurgents, I think most would agree are winning or have already won in Iraq. Its only matter of time InshAllah until an Islamic government is established and is successful in Somalia.
Right... The world says otherwise.
The capital has become an open city.
Linky (http://home.bellsouth.net/s/editorial.dll?pnum=1&bfromind=2214&eeid=5091715&_sitecat=1505&dcatid=0&eetype=article&render=y&ac=3&ck=&ch=ne&rg=blsadstrgt)


Islamic Forces Abandon Somalia's Capital
MOGADISHU, Somalia (AP) - The Islamist forces who have controlled Somalia's capital for months abandoned the city to clan rule on Thursday after government forces advanced to within striking distance.

An AP reporter on the scene saw gunmen taking off their Islamist uniforms and submitting to the command of traditional elders.

Gunfire echoed through the streets as people began looting Islamist bases and buildings belonging to Islamist officials, witnesses said.

Kind of hard to run a government without the capital.

It's just all so pointless. It's not like the ICU is going to go away. It's got too much public support and social networks in place for that.

The Baidoa government is not only full of former warlords, but also chosen by the Ethiopians. It's never going to have public support. As soon as the Ethiopian troops leave, it's going to be on the run again.

And the Americans are going to make themselves even less popular in Somalia (and with the Ethiopian opposition) by supporting the Ethiopians on this.

And the Americans are going to make themselves even less popular in Somalia (and with the Ethiopian opposition) by supporting the Ethiopians on this.
It's Somalia, the US government could care less.

you may doubt me now, but with time, Muslims will be victorious. The Ethiopians are nothing compared to the other side. Just look at recent history. Hezbollah was arguably victorious over the IDF and insurgents, I think most would agree are winning or have already won in Iraq. Its only matter of time InshAllah until an Islamic government is established and is successful in Somalia.

I thought you spent most of the time directly following your conversion to convincing people of the peacefulness of Islam. Why are you now defending a direct and unjustified military action?

Somalians distrust the current government ever since it was created in Kenya (a neighboring country to Somalia). The man that was elected as the president (Mr. Abdullahi Yusuf) was an anarchist general while Somalia was intact (he tried to lead a coup while Somalia was in a war with Ethiopia). When that coup was foiled, he ran to Ethiopia, leaving his loyal fellow traitors to their fate. Fifteen years ago, Somalia broke down (civil war) and fifteen years fast-forward, Mr. Abdullahi Yusuf is vying to become the president of Somalia and who is he's sole backer? ETHIOPIA (wow, aint that a surprise) Somalia’s archenemy. He's no different from the other warlords that were kicked out of Mogadishu on June 5 (Some of those warlords confessed that America supplied them $100,000 a month). Somalians support the Islamic Courts because they see them as their saviors from those warlords who kept Somalia in the dark for 15 years. These warlords kept the country's airports, ports, hotels, villas, banks, and almost everything else to themselves. How would non-Somalis feel if they experienced this horrific scenario? For 15 years of turmoil, the closes western intervention was the UN and US assistance in operation restore hope and they left the country when the tough got going. All those years without any news coverage of any sorts, the Somalians have felt that they were forgotten but they remained resolute. They searched for something that will put an end to this chaos (looting, rape, murder, clan-warfare, arms race, and etc) and guess who stood up and challenged these warlords? the Islamic Courts. The Islamic Courts are made up of different clan members who normally would be at each others throats if it weren't for the only unifying thing in Somalia, religion. Aside religion, Somalians can quickly identify themselves as one when there’s a foreign threat from non Somalis. As the Islamic Courts are gaining support from the oppressed Somalians, Western nations stick their nose at what is going on within Somalia (ever since Somalia was abandoned by its ally the US and the UN) ever since things are turning better, and they are quick to disapprove the Islamic Courts. This move (Western nations being against the Islamic Courts) only make the Somalians more suspicious about Western intentions, do they want the status quos in Somalia to remain? Most Somalians now believe that Western governments along with Ethiopia (as their lap dog) appose a Somalia without Anarchy, a Somalia without warlords, and a Somalia free from foreign influence. I would have to say to the Somali people in Somalia, you finally found an antidote to the warlord issue and some nations don’t like what you’re doing for yourselves, so pay no mind and move on.

Well said, however, if your country is to be safe and secure her leaders must recognise the error in attempting to grow outside of the internationally recognised borders. The aforementioned Greater Somalia must never exist unless it be as a concept with programs designed to encourage ethnic Somalians from other countries to migrate to within the existing borders. to do anything else, to encourage anything else, to campaign for anything else is to ask for trouble from the West. Perhaps the council should seek assistance from nations like Canada, Finland and Norway in the west and Saudi Arabia. Your neighbours need to stay on their own side of the borders and you need to concentrate on fixing things within your own nation. Although I am against religious governing in general I think this is a situation where it would be useful. Just remember the mistakes of the Taliban. Encourage the council to make certain there is no room for anti western antagonists who would attempt to use your nation as a base. To permit a new anti-Western (or any other) terrorist organisation to use a newly rebuilt Somalia as a base would be to encourage even more suffering in the future.

you may doubt me now, but with time, Muslims will be victorious. The Ethiopians are nothing compared to the other side. Just look at recent history. Hezbollah was arguably victorious over the IDF and insurgents, I think most would agree are winning or have already won in Iraq. Its only matter of time InshAllah until an Islamic government is established and is successful in Somalia.

Soviestan, you are labouring under a misapprehension. The Islamic Courts are not going up against a squeamish western nation here; they're going up against a government that effectively sentenced half of it's own populace to death by starvation rather than lose a breakaway province. Guerilla fighters in Somalia will not be able to fade into the crowd - the Ethiopians will kill the whole crowd.

Insurgencies can be beaten, and often have in the past. You just have to be ruthless enough.

you may doubt me now, but with time, Muslims will be victorious. The Ethiopians are nothing compared to the other side. Just look at recent history. Hezbollah was arguably victorious over the IDF and insurgents, I think most would agree are winning or have already won in Iraq. Its only matter of time InshAllah until an Islamic government is established and is successful in Somalia.

Too bad I (and Shakespeare) proved these guys were un-islamic and commiting biddah in the beginning of this thread. As such, why do you root for them?

Too bad I (and Shakespeare) proved these guys were un-islamic and commiting biddah in the beginning of this thread. As such, why do you root for them?

He's either fallen under the sway of Wahhabist-grade extremism, or he's a deep-planted satire who's really trying to convince everyone that "|\/|0zl3|\/|z r 3b1l".

Since Sovietstan claims they're motivated by Allah, I guess Allah (as S) support the use of conscripted children in war.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061228/ap_on_re_af/somalia_130

Islamic fighters have gone door to door in Kismayo recruiting children as young as 12 to make a last stand on behalf of the Islamic movement, according to a U.N. report citing the families of boys taken to Jilib.

Since Sovietstan claims they're motivated by Allah, I guess Allah (as S) support the use of conscripted children in war.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061228/ap_on_re_af/somalia_130

Islamic fighters have gone door to door in Kismayo recruiting children as young as 12 to make a last stand on behalf of the Islamic movement, according to a U.N. report citing the families of boys taken to Jilib.

Considering what some of his most zealous followers do, allah supports a lot of fucked up shit.

Considering what some of his most zealous followers do, allah supports a lot of fucked up shit.

Unless you claim abortion bombers are carrying out real Christian doctrine, you can't see the morons as Muslims either.

Unless you claim abortion bombers are carrying out real Christian doctrine, you can't see the morons as Muslims either.

But if you label all Muslims as sharing the same zealous oppressive mentality in a hivemind- even the Southeast Asians- then it becomes that much easier to dehumanize and thus even find entertainment in stories of them being killed in droves.

But Christians and Jews can do no wrong. Ever. That's the Real American Way.

But if you label all Muslims as sharing the same zealous oppressive mentality in a hivemind- even the Southeast Asians- then it becomes that much easier to dehumanize and thus even find entertainment in stories of them being killed in droves.

But Christians and Jews can do no wrong. Ever. That's the Real American Way.

*Slaps forehead*

Oh. Right. My bad.

*Slaps forehead*

Oh. Right. My bad.

I forgot the trademark on Real American WayÖ. Sorry.

Unless you claim abortion bombers are carrying out real Christian doctrine, you can't see the morons as Muslims either.

I have no doubt that the abortion bombers are dedicated heart and soul to christianity.

I have no doubt that the abortion bombers are dedicated heart and soul to christianity.

And that the atheists that eventually are violent towards anti-abortionists are dedicated the heart and (believed lack of a) soul to Atheism?

I have no doubt that the abortion bombers are dedicated heart and soul to christianity.

So do you truly believe that Christians who aren't bombing abortion clinics and murdering doctors who perform the procedure are not True Christians then?

And that the atheists that eventually are violent towards anti-abortionists are dedicated the heart and (lack of a) soul to Atheism?

The Islamic terrorists use Islamic values and morality to motivate them to commit their crimes. The abortion bombers use Christian values and morality to motivate them. If someone decided to start killing clerics of various religions in the name of atheism, yeah. He'd be an atheist terrorist.

So do you truly believe that Christians who aren't bombing abortion clinics and murdering doctors who perform the procedure are not True Christians then?

Don't bring in the "no true scotsman" thing. They're motivated to do good things by their religion, but that doesn't mean that the people who do bad things can't be motivated by the same religion.

And that the atheists that eventually are violent towards anti-abortionists are dedicated the heart and (lack of a) soul to Atheism?

Science save us!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3k-pr_ng_E

But if you label all Muslims as sharing the same zealous oppressive mentality in a hivemind- even the Southeast Asians- then it becomes that much easier to dehumanize and thus even find entertainment in stories of them being killed in droves.

But Christians and Jews can do no wrong. Ever. That's the Real American Way.
I'll laugh if I read that some Abortion bomber blows himself up by mistake... If I find out it happens. However the fact is is that there are a lot more Bombers who claim to follow Islam then there are bombers going after the 3817 8A8YK1773Rs.

Has anybody ever seen a product that had "Made in Somalia" marked on it? I never have. It seems that it is like one big Mad Max movie.

I'll laugh if I read that some Abortion bomber blows himself up by mistake... If I find out it happens. However the fact is is that there are a lot more Bombers who claim to follow Islam then there are bombers going after the 3817 8A8YK1773Rs.

The EBIT BABYKITTERS? o_O

The EBIT BABYKITTERS? o_O
I use a dielect of leet. My version the 7 can be a T or a L.

Has anybody ever seen a product that had "Made in Somalia" marked on it? I never have. It seems that it is like one big Mad Max movie.

Well, no, but I've never seen anything that said "Made in the UK" either. Doesn't mean anything. Though granted, Somalia's manufacturing export sector is substantially smaller than even the UK's.

Somalia's manufacturing export sector is substantially smaller than even the UK's.

O RLY?

(Sorry, couldn't help myself. If this is a violation of forum rules, though, do tell and I'll delete it.)

He's either fallen under the sway of Wahhabist-grade extremism, or he's a deep-planted satire who's really trying to convince everyone that "|\/|0zl3|\/|z r 3b1l".

I don't know why I'm branded as a extremist here. On some of the mostly Muslim forums I visit and with some people I know, I'm considered the "moderate voice". The bottom line is this, the Ethopians have no business in Somalia or Somalian affairs. Muslims have a right to fight back against aggression, which is what is happening here. They will succeed.

Since Sovietstan claims they're motivated by Allah, I guess Allah (as S) support the use of conscripted children in war.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061228/ap_on_re_af/somalia_130

Islamic fighters have gone door to door in Kismayo recruiting children as young as 12 to make a last stand on behalf of the Islamic movement, according to a U.N. report citing the families of boys taken to Jilib.

No Muslim is too young to defend Islam. Although I wish children weren't force into this. This is a direct result of Ethiopian aggression.

On some of the mostly Muslim forums I visit and with some people I know, I'm considered the "moderate voice".

That's the scary part. :)

No Muslim is too young to defend Islam. Although I wish children weren't force into this. This is a direct result of Ethiopian aggression.

Dumbass blame-the-other-guy strategy. "I'm not responsible! You made me!"

No way. YOU are responsible for what you do, NO ONE ELSE. Likewise, if the ICU is forcing children to fight, THEY AND THEY ALONE are responsible.

NO twelve year old is capable of truly understanding the situation. Therefore, forcing them to fight and die for Islam, or for anything else, is without doubt an evil act.

I don't know why I'm branded as a extremist here. On some of the mostly Muslim forums I visit and with some people I know, I'm considered the "moderate voice". The bottom line is this, the Ethopians have no business in Somalia or Somalian affairs. Muslims have a right to fight back against aggression, which is what is happening here. They will succeed.
And an attempted Islamist takeover, regardless of the previous state of Somalia, with armed militias isn't agressive?

I don't know why I'm branded as a extremist here.

:rolleyes: Maybe because you compared Israel to the Nazis?

No Muslim is too young to defend Islam. Although I wish children weren't force into this. This is a direct result of Ethiopian aggression.

At 12 years old, no-one's defending anything. They're fighting because they and their families are being threatened if they don't. Also, blaming the other guy is the most immature thing possible. To respond though, the ICU started this whole thing by illegally attacking the lawful government of Somalia.

No Muslim is too young to defend Islam. Although I wish children weren't force into this. This is a direct result of Ethiopian aggression.

Why do you not wish it. You stated the actions of the ICU are guided by Allah. Are you saying Allah is wrong or that the ICU is not actually following the will of Allah?

:rolleyes: Maybe because you compared Israel to the Nazis?

there are glaring similarities, anyone who states otherwise is blind.

there are glaring similarities, anyone who states otherwise is blind.

Yet you say you are moderate.

And an attempted Islamist takeover, regardless of the previous state of Somalia, with armed militias isn't agressive?

Thats not the point. Let the Somalis decide what their government will be. Ethiopians have no business there.

Yet you say you are moderate.

In comparison to the individuals at the websites he visits. Says a lot, doesn't it?

Thats not the point. Let the Somalis decide what their government will be. Ethiopians have no business there.

And yet witnesses have stated there are numerous foreign fighters w/ the ICU.

And yet witnesses have stated there are numerous foreign fighters w/ the ICU.

Don't forget that the ICU were never elected. The Somalis never got a chance to decide on them.

Why do you not wish it. You stated the actions of the ICU are guided by Allah. Are you saying Allah is wrong or that the ICU is not actually following the will of Allah?

I don't wish it because I would prefer children not have to fight in war. As to the part, its a nice strawman you set up.

Yet you say you are moderate.

I am. I have never supported groups like al-Qeada, nor will I.

I don't wish it because I would prefer children not have to fight in war. As to the part, its a nice strawman you set up.

So are they or are they not being guided by the will of Allah? You claimed they were. If Allah is guiding them, then your preferences are against his will which you claim is ultimate and should be followed absolutely.

And yet witnesses have stated there are numerous foreign fighters w/ the ICU.

Thats different.

Thats different.

No, it's not. An unelected military force supported by foreigners is attacking the legitimate government that is being supported by foreigners.

Or is it different in the same way you blame the Ethiopians for forcing the ICU to use child soldiers?

I am. I have never supported groups like al-Qeada, nor will I.
I bet you want a trophy for that right?
But you do support Hamas and Hizbollah.

I am. I have never supported groups like al-Qeada, nor will I.

All together now:

THE ICU IS LIKE THE AL QAEDA!!!!

And, that being so, they're less Muslim than I am.

I (and Shakespeare) have proved to you that they're not true muslims.

They force children to fight (for WHATEVER IT IS, it's absurd, and I'm pretty sure that the Quran is against this action which is tantamount to paedophilia);
They force people to pray 5 times a day (Islam does NOT proselytize, if you read the Quran, let alone in the way these psychopathic UNBELIEVERS are!);
They overthrew a democratically elected government (The Quran says to respect the law of the land);
They attacked people that had not attacked them first, people from Somalia (The Quran only approves of war when it's against people that attacked you first. Gee. The cursed ICU "people" attacked first. Guess who's being more Islamic than them? The Ethiopian army.).

In the name of Allah, I, an occultist, must correct you, a supposed believer, in your definition of who is or not a Muslim.

All together now:

THE ICU IS LIKE THE AL QAEDA!!!!

And, that being so, they're less Muslim than I am.

I (and Shakespeare) have proved to you that they're not true muslims.

They force children to fight (for WHATEVER IT IS, it's absurd, and I'm pretty sure that the Quran is against this action which is tantamount to paedophilia);
They force people to pray 5 times a day (Islam does NOT proselytize, if you read the Quran!);
They overthrew a democratically elected government (The Quran says to respect the law of the land);
They attacked people that had not attacked them first.

In the name of Allah, I, a non-believer, must correct you, a believer, in your definition of who is or not a Muslim.

Holy smokes your pimp hand is indeed strong.

ETA: Don't you mean TALIBAN?

:eek:

Holy smokes your pimp hand is indeed strong.

:eek:

Erm... What does that mean?

Erm... What does that mean?

He's complimenting you on using strong and pertinent facts about Islam (of which S is apparently ignorant) to debunk his belief that the ICU are "following the will of Allah).

You "pimped" him.

He's complimenting you on using strong and pertinent facts about Islam (of which S is apparently ignorant) to debunk his belief that the ICU are "following the will of Allah).

You "pimped" him.

Awww... :D

Holy smokes your pimp hand is indeed strong.

ETA: Don't you mean TALIBAN?

:eek:

I practice my pimp handing. :D

And he said Al Qaeda, so I decided to follow up as he said.

All together now:

THE ICU IS LIKE THE AL QAEDA!!!!

And, that being so, they're less Muslim than I am.

I (and Shakespeare) have proved to you that they're not true muslims.

They force children to fight (for WHATEVER IT IS, it's absurd, and I'm pretty sure that the Quran is against this action which is tantamount to paedophilia);
They force people to pray 5 times a day (Islam does NOT proselytize, if you read the Quran, let alone in the way these psychopathic UNBELIEVERS are!);
They overthrew a democratically elected government (The Quran says to respect the law of the land);
They attacked people that had not attacked them first, people from Somalia (The Quran only approves of war when it's against people that attacked you first. Gee. The cursed ICU "people" attacked first. Guess who's being more Islamic than them? The Ethiopian army.).

In the name of Allah, I, an occultist, must correct you, a supposed believer, in your definition of who is or not a Muslim.

To add to delightfully amazing retort, did you know Soveistan that according to Islamic teachings, God will take away his support for a corrupt and tyrannical nation even if they call themselves Muslims. And at the same time give his support to a nation that tries to do good even if they are non-Muslim. Straight out of the Prophets mouth. Chew on that.

To add to delightfully amazing retort, did you know Soveistan that according to Islamic teachings, God will take away his support for a corrupt and tyrannical nation even if they call themselves Muslims. And at the same time give his support to a nation that tries to do good even if they are non-Muslim. Straight out of the Prophets mouth. Chew on that.

"delightfully amazing"? Really? :D

Yours was not bad at ALL either. :D

All together now:

THE ICU IS LIKE THE AL QAEDA!!!!

Em, no. No, they're really not. Maybe you need a refresher course on what Al-Qaeda has done and then compare it to what the UIC has done.


They force children to fight (for WHATEVER IT IS, it's absurd, and I'm pretty sure that the Quran is against this action which is tantamount to paedophilia);
Link/Source to that 'forced' child soldiers bit please. Not that that would be different from most African states these days anyway...

Oh and also go check a dictionary for the definition of 'paedophilia'. Methinks it's not what you appear to think it is.

They force people to pray 5 times a day (Islam does NOT proselytize, if you read the Quran, let alone in the way these psychopathic UNBELIEVERS are!);
They did? Link please. I know that Somalia is nearly all Muslim anyway and so most would pray quite regularly- but 'force them'? A source would be nice.

They overthrew a democratically elected government (The Quran says to respect the law of the land);
No, they overthrew the warlords that the neutered provisional government could never do. Couple that with the fact that the government hasn't controlled so much as a hamlet in the past 15 years, it's safe to say the government was only in name.

They attacked people that had not attacked them first, people from Somalia (The Quran only approves of war when it's against people that attacked you first. Gee. The cursed ICU "people" attacked first. Guess who's being more Islamic than them? The Ethiopian army.).
I believe that you could make a case for that, had the country not been in a complete and utter state of FUCKING CHAOS AND ANARCHY FOR 15 YEARS.

In the name of Allah, I, an occultist, must correct you, a supposed believer, in your definition of who is or not a Muslim.

Goddamn man, religion or no - read up a bit will you?

The fact they are guided by Allah. Allah protects those who trust in him.

Sure he does.....

the Ethopians have no business in Somalia I agree 80%

Muslims have a right to fight back against aggression I agree 100%

which is what is happening here. I agree 95%

They will succeed. maybe.. maybe not.

I don't know why I'm branded as a extremist here. do not pay attention to their "Branding"..

If I ever payed attention to half of the things they say about me.. I would expend most of my online-time defending my name.

Peace Talks? Ethiopia clearly won. They need to kill all the fighters in these militia's controled by the Council of Islamic Courts. If they leave survivors, it will happen again soon. You can't negotiate with these people.

Peace Talks? Ethiopia clearly won. They need to kill all the fighters in these militia's controled by the Council of Islamic Courts. If they leave survivors, it will happen again soon. You can't negotiate with these people.

nope there will be peace talks, if there are no negotiations there can be no lasting peace...

nope there will be peace talks, if there are no negotiations there can be no lasting peace...

Sure it does. If you kill everyone that opposes you, no one will try to fight back, hence peace.

Sure it does. If you kill everyone that opposes you, no one will try to fight back, hence peace.
I wonder if the Imperial Brits ever considered that option.



_______________
I vow to die a free man.
interesting sig you have.

I don't know why I'm branded as a extremist here. On some of the mostly Muslim forums I visit and with some people I know, I'm considered the "moderate voice". The bottom line is this, the Ethopians have no business in Somalia or Somalian affairs. Muslims have a right to fight back against aggression, which is what is happening here. They will succeed.

Ah, but who is really being aggressive?

The ICU invaded Somalia, and Ethiopia may feel threatened, being a neighbor of Somalia and noting the ICU's aggression.

U.S. again strikes in Somalia
From Times Wire Services
January 25, 2007

MOGADISHU, SOMALIA — The United States has conducted a second airstrike in Somalia, U.S. officials said Wednesday.

The new strike, carried out this week, came two weeks after an AC-130 plane killed what Washington said were eight Al Qaeda-affiliated fighters hiding among holdout Islamist rebels pushed to Somalia's southern tip by Ethiopian and Somalian government forces.

One official said the targets this week were part of the Islamic Courts Union, the militant group defeated by government troops with the backing of the Ethiopian military late last year. A second source said the target was an Al Qaeda operative.

I wonder if the Imperial Brits ever considered that option.


Considered? In some places, used.

Considered? In some places, used.

Like when they put all the Boer women and children in squallid camps to get their menfolk to stop fighting w/ over 25,000 deaths from disease and malnutrition.

I hear a lot of people that don't know what they're talking about, get your facts straight. The guy who runs Ethiopia is no different then the last president of Somalia who was forced out of his own country by angry citizens and ex-Somali generals that Siad Barre (former Somali president) made enemies with. Same thing is happening in Ethiopia, Generals are leaving their posts and joining anti-Ethiopian militants, most Ethiopians don't accept Ethiopian army in Somalia. Ethiopian presence in Somalia just further inflames the notion for a greater Somalia, that is uniting all the Somalis that colonial Britain has divided and gave to Ethiopia and Kenya (because ever since those British stepped into Somalia, we gave them hell, and it was Somalia that the first European bomber was used in Africa). Britain just divided them without even giving them the right to vote as to who should govern them or if they wanted an independent country of their own. Regardless of the size of population in Kenya and in Ethiopia (check https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html) Somalia went to war them (primarily Ethiopia) for what it believed. It brings fear, every time Ethiopians hear a Somalian leader talks about Greater Somalia, they don't want a Somalia that's strong enough to tango with Ethiopia and Kenya again, so it's in their best interest to keep Somalia in a civil war, in an anarchy state, keep Somalia on its knees. For Ethiopia to enter Somalia, it has to pass millions of Somalis settling behind the Ethiopian border, they're lucky that those ethnic Somalians were suspicious of the ICU because if they were sympathetic to the ICU, Ethiopia would have had logistics problems and same goes for Kenya. There's no single development going on in the lands of ethnic Somalians, for towns and cities that are larger than major towns and cities in Somalia, the living standard of Ethiopian Somalians is unimaginable. The only Ethiopian presence on those lands (Ogaden) is the Ethiopian army, that's it, it's an occupation. It’s very hard for the rest of Somalians just to move on with our lives and prosper under Democracy (that all Somalians embrace) while our brethrens across both Ethiopian and Kenyan borders are living in such a miserable conditions, (when you see starving Ethiopians on TV, the majority aren’t Ethiopians but ethnic Somalians, a portion of the donated food goes to Ethiopian markets for sell which is not supposed be for sale). It’s easy to see that ethnic Somalians are experiencing all these troubles because they are seen as different from the Ethiopians and Kenyans but they can’t expect to ignore the sufferings of millions of ethnic Somalians and think the problem would just go away.

I don't know why I'm branded as a extremist here. On some of the mostly Muslim forums I visit and with some people I know, I'm considered the "moderate voice". The bottom line is this, the Ethopians have no business in Somalia or Somalian affairs. Muslims have a right to fight back against aggression, which is what is happening here. They will succeed.

Wow, this thesis ended in disaster.

Firstly, if you do anything short of blowing yourself up in a Jewish market you're suddenly "moderate" in the Muslim world - being a "moderate Muslim" doesn't make your views any less psychotic. You're branded as an extremist because the notion that Ethiopia doesn't belong in Somalia is absurd.

The ICU declared a holy war on Ethiopia - I know we in the west pretend that means nothing, but being a Muslim you know well the horrors your people can unleash when they call it "holy war". I don't care what adjectives you slap in front of it - a declaration of war is a declaration of war, and needs to be responded to with force.

Of course, once again, thesis destroyed, there hasn't been such a resounding victory against jihadist forces in a long, long time.

SNIP

Paragraphs, please.

The fact they are guided by Allah. Allah protects those who trust in him.

Who needs flak jackets, just start believing in Allah!

Who needs flak jackets, just start believing in Allah!


Soon, the Mogadishu Tim Horton's will obliterate Allah, and make Somalia the second piece of the GREAT CANADIAN EMPIRE, eh.

Considered? In some places, used.I was considering his post.. and his sig on the backround..

If a nation vows to die free.. the Imperials would have to kill them all.

I wonder if the Imperial Brits ever considered that option.


Gen Dyer at Jalianwalabagh.