NationStates Jolt Archive

As if the people there don't have enough problems. The birth rate is among the highest in the world, but the land is so poor that it can't even sustain the population that lives there already. And if the current stream of droughts (perhaps brought on by climate change) continues...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6199239.stm
http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/News/0,,2-11-1447_2048607,00.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_war_in_Somalia

As it is, the Ethiopians don't want the Islamists who recently took Mogadishu and plan to bring their stability to Somalia (and apparently with the support of most of the population, which is sick of warlords and uncertainty) to stay. In support of their puppet government, Ethiopia has now officially declared war if I understand correctly, though a proxy conflict had been going on for a while. Jet fighters and artillery have begun bombardments.

Thoughts? News? Comments?

Ethiopia likes to declare war. Aren't they still at war with Eritrea?

Down with extremism. *graps popcorn to watch the war*

I'd go with the UIC for the win on this won.

Hope they bring a bit of stability to their own country, and they aren't the agressors this time.

Good for Ethiopia. I hope the US supports them.

As far as "stability" goes, the Taliban allegedly brought "stability" to Afghanistan too.

Good for Ethiopia. I hope the US supports them.

As far as "stability" goes, the Taliban allegedly brought "stability" to Afghanistan too.

They did. Granted, it was sexist, inhuman, and repulsive, but it was still stability.

Neu, sorry. Your commentray is taking a really crap stance on the issue. The Islamicists took Mog by killing a bunch of innocent people. The UN has a governernment in place pending democratic elections much as we did in Yugoslavie and elsewhere and the islamicists are attacking them, and into ethiopia. THey are attacking into ethiopia to kill the christians living there, and have been for years. While I know ethiopia isn't a great counrty, I am afriad I support them this time. Last time I was in Somalia tehre were a bunch of Taliban trained militiamen shooting at us. I say let ethiopia lay some whoops ass down on them.

To claim that the scum who are trying to take over Somolia by murdering anybody dumb enough to argue are "bringing stability" to the region is silly. They are as bad as it gets. And yeah, they "apparently support" them because if they didn't they would get starved to death. Sometimes a liberal left position isn't always the right perspective. Try looking at it from a "all of them are awful" perspective. The only way the area will ever calm down is if someone from outside imposes some decency upon them. We should have stayed after Oct 3, 93.

Let's pray for peace there.

We should have stayed after Oct 3, 93.

Agreed.

I'd go with the UIC for the win on this won.

Hope they bring a bit of stability to their own country, and they aren't the agressors this time.

It's ICU. And they are the aggressors. They are also definitely related to AQ. They were the link to AQ trainers in the early 90's that were training militiamen who then attacked UN troops (and particularly shot the crap out of our rangers and SF types in 93). This is MY info not Bush info.

If Ethiopia can clobber them I'll smile about the name Somolia for the first time in 13 years.

To claim that the scum who are trying to take over Somolia by murdering anybody dumb enough to argue are "bringing stability" to the region is silly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Courts_Union
After the collapse of the Somali government in 1991, a system of sharia-based Islamic courts became the main judicial system, funded by fees paid by litigants. Over time the courts began to offer other services such as education and health care. The courts also acted as local police forces, being paid by local businesses to reduce crime. The Islamic courts took on the responsibility for halting robberies and drug-dealing, as well as stopping the showing of what it claims to be pornographic films in local movie houses. Somalia is almost entirely Muslim, and these institutions had wide public support. The early years of the courts include such outfits as Sheikh Ali Dheere's, established in north Mogadishu in 1994 and the Beled Weyene court initiated in 1996. They soon saw the sense in working together through a joint committee to promote security. This move was initiated by four of the courts - Ifka Halan, Circolo, Warshadda and Hararyaale - who formed a committee to co-ordinate their affairs, to exchange criminals from different clans and to integrate security forces. In 1999 the group began to assert its authority. Supporters of the Islamic courts and other institutions united to form the ICU, an armed militia. In April of that year they took control of the main market in Mogadishu and, in July, captured the road from Mogadishu to Afgoi.

[...]

In an interview featured in the BBC Online Somali section in June 2006, Sheik Sharif Shaykh Ahmed said "the union of Islamic courts was established to ensure that Somali people suffering for 15 years would gain peace and full justice and freedom from the anarchic rule of warlords who refuted their people to no direction." Somalia is at a watershed period in its development and progression. Since victory against the ARPCT, the Islamic Courts have enacted a series of decrees and laws that have led to hope for the future of Somali expatriates, local minorities, businessmen and women.

This is a curious movement, almost an anarchist's dream. Not really comparable to the Taliban, or the other warlords.

You can't oversimplify, so I stuck with the facts. They want to bring stability. Many people support them. Ethiopia's puppet government is just that. "Democratic elections" are meaningless if the government doesn't dare send its guys outside the one or two border towns they actually control.

Suffice to say that I've done my research on these guys, and I called it as I saw it.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003305401_somalia15.html
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/africa/jan-june06/somalia_06-08.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5279414.stm

Now it's your turn to give me a few links about the things you say they do.

It's ICU. And they are the aggressors. They are also definitely related to AQ. They were the link to AQ trainers in the early 90's that were training militiamen who then attacked UN troops (and particularly shot the crap out of our rangers and SF types in 93). This is MY info not Bush info.

If Ethiopia can clobber them I'll smile about the name Somolia for the first time in 13 years.

UIC/ICU whatever the fuck- they're known as both and many other names. You know whom I speak of.
How are they the aggressors in this? They didn't invade, they're too busy attempting to soldify their position against the very warlords that were responsible for the anarchistic state in Somalia (the very same warlords against which the UN including US forces fought against in '93)

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. But if they are shown to have any ties to Islamic terrorists, it will be time to take the actions necessary to destroy them and drive them out. We must tolerate, or even accept, Islamic states when they obey the law and do not fund extremism, but when they do we must work to stymie them or destroy them.

I also think you are taking a rather oversimplified stance to this. Ethiopia has always had tensions with Somalia concerning the lynching of ethiopian christians on its borders.
Ethiopia (mostly in southern) is very proud of its christian history, being the 2nd oldest christian nation I believe. That the UIC who often tolerated, and according to Ethiopia supported these killings and kidnappings are for Ethiopia not acceptable. Hence now a war to remove them from power hopefully permanently.
I will be supporting Ethiopia in this war.

UIC/ICU whatever the fuck- they're known as both and many other names. You know whom I speak of.
How are they the aggressors in this? They didn't invade, they're too busy attempting to soldify their position against the very warlords that were responsible for the anarchistic state in Somalia (the very same warlords against which the UN including US forces fought against in '93)
I apologize. I was trained to describe them as ICU, like intensive care unit. You can indeed call them whatever the fuck you want to. They are still the guys that gave AQ an inroad into the region in the 90s. They are still the guys who continue to giv AQ an inroads there today. As for the idea that they weren't responible for the anarchy of the 90's...hyuck hyuck hyuck:D Pull the other one wilbur THAT was funny.:rolleyes:

In January 1991, the dictator of Somalia, Mohammed Siad Barre, was overthrown by a coalition of opposing clans, called the United Somalia Congress. After this revolution, the coalition divided into two groups. One was led by Ali Mahdi, who became president; and the other, by Mohammed Farah Aidid. In total, there were four opposing groups: the United Somali Congress (USC), Somali Salvation Democratic Front (SSDF), Somali Patriotic Movement (SPM), and Somali Democratic Movement (SDM), which continued to fight over the domination of Somalia. In June 1991, a ceasefire was agreed to, but failed to hold. A fifth group, the Somali National Movement (SNM), had already seceded from the northwest portion of Somalia in June. The SNM renamed it the Somaliland Republic, with its leader Abdel-Rahman Ahmed Ali as president.
pulled from the beginning of the Blackhawk down Wikipedia page.


what you have to remember is taht all this is basically the end game of what happened back in 91 when Siad Barre was killed. THe same people who backed all of the militias are now the same people who call themselves the ICU. Calling a turd a duck does not remove the smell or give you something to pluck and eat.

Neu, I was there from late '92 to oct 5, 93. I can't say much more than that. But you can ask yourself "why did he leave two days after the battle? No, I was not an operator.


Much of the region covers the traditional territory of Ogaden and it formed a large part of the pre-1995 province of Hararghe. The region has a very high Somali population, and in the past has been claimed by Somalia as part of a Greater Somalia. In the 1970s, Somalia invaded Ethiopia in support of local Somali rebels, particularly during the Ogaden War, but was defeated.
from wikipedia's page on Somoli. Another reason why Ethiopia, which has only recently calmed down and become a fairly safe country to live in, is trying to settle somolia down.
Ethiopia is not a puppet state. They are a democracy, although a very troubled one. If I have to chose between a democrwcy, no matte rhow corrupt, and an islamic regime that has encouraged terrorism, guess which I wil pick? We've done it taht way repeatedly and ended up with decent states. Think South Korea.

"
The official report described by the parliament and the government gave the exact same details as the leaked inquiry. It said that 193 people had been killed, including 40 teenagers. Six policemen were also killed and some 763 people injured. Police records showed 20,000 people were initially arrested during the anti-government protests.[3] However various witnesses from the Kinijit (CUD) opposition party members have testified that CUD leaders assured them of a demise of Zenawi's party & government in order to start an armed rebellion. The witnesses stated that CUD leaders encouraged them to start military training and planing to overthrow the government.[4] The commission members living in Addis Ababa also criticised the government saying;

We are not saying the government was totally clean. The government has a lot to be accountable for. The mentality of the police needs to be changed, and then we will be able to minimize those kinds of casualties in the future. Building of [democratic] institutions is required, but that is going to take time. [So] The government was not prepared to tackle violence like that which took place last year. They could have brought an alternative way of dispersing rioting crowds."[5] [6]

In January 1991, the dictator of Somalia, Mohammed Siad Barre, was overthrown by a coalition of opposing clans, called the United Somalia Congress. After this revolution, the coalition divided into two groups. One was led by Ali Mahdi, who became president; and the other, by Mohammed Farah Aidid. In total, there were four opposing groups: the United Somali Congress (USC), Somali Salvation Democratic Front (SSDF), Somali Patriotic Movement (SPM), and Somali Democratic Movement (SDM), which continued to fight over the domination of Somalia. In June 1991, a ceasefire was agreed to, but failed to hold. A fifth group, the Somali National Movement (SNM), had already seceded from the northwest portion of Somalia in June. The SNM renamed it the Somaliland Republic, with its leader Abdel-Rahman Ahmed Ali as president..

Ummm, ok. Now what has that got to do with a group that was only established as a military force in 1999/2000?

I know who the militas/warlords were 'Wilbur', the UIC in action today weren't one of them during the early 90's.

As for the whole Al-Qaeda thing, only a tiny minority of the union have anything to do with foreign fighters. It is a nice thing to trot out, wave around and use as a red rag for inclusion in the 'War of Terror'

Roosevelt,

what make you of the fact that the US and EU seem to be backing the IC movement?

Ummm, ok. Now what has that got to do with a group that was only established as a military force in 1999/2000?

I know who the militas/warlords were 'Wilbur', the UIC in action today weren't one of them during the early 90's.

As for the whole Al-Qaeda thing, only a tiny minority of the union have anything to do with foreign fighters. It is a nice thing to trot out, wave around and use as a red rag for inclusion in the 'War of Terror'oh for god's sake. Dude, do you have any idea how anti american flag waving I am?
a) I hate GW Nush
b) I cussed when we didn't do Afghanistan right
c) I knew why
d) I cussed when we invaded Iraq because we didn't do it righ because of b)


I did not describe their foreign fighters. I described thier trainers.
We are now getting even crazier with the whole war on terror thing.
I have been out of it all for a while. But it is beginning to remiond me of the cold war in its sense of desperate melodrama and inane reasoning for why we still support and train the same people who are trying to kill us.

I think we should back ethiopia in this one, and the UN is backing the people Ethiopia is trying to back.

I never intended to really get this far into this discussion, I mostly just wanted to point out that nobody in the region is clean and we really should be llooking at finding someone whom we can try to "lead into the sunlight" and maybe support them. Ethiopia seems to be improving somewhat. Somolia does not IMHO.


Google shabab if you must see what the ICU is about.

Ethiopia vs Somalia

Final score: Ethopia 45, Somalia 6, People of Somalia -250,000. :( Oh, and the UN 0 again.:(

Alleged military support to the ICU
In November 2006, a UN arms monitoring group released information that all groups in Somalia were given logistical support by a dozen countries. Those countries rejected those allegations. These are the allegations documented by the UN monitoring group:

Djibouti: According to that report, the government of Djibouti has provided military uniforms and medicines in support of the Islamic Courts Union (ICU). On July 30, 2006, a Djibouti Airlines aircraft landed at an airport in Mogadishu with medicines and military uniforms intended for ICU. The true nature of the cargo was disguised, and it was presented as being from the Red Crescent Society of Djibouti to conceal its origins. After the cargo was unloaded, the aircraft proceeded to Mogadishu's main airport.
Egypt: The government has allegedly provided training in support of ICU. On July 26, 2006, a meeting took place in Mogadishu between officials from ICU and visiting Libyan, Egyptian and Eritrean senior military officers at the residence of ICU finance chief Abdulkadir Abukar Omar Adani. According to the report, the meeting resolved that military training be provided to about 3,800 fighters at the Hilweyne military barracks, near Bal'ad town, north of Mogadishu.
Iran: The UN monitoring group stated that Iran has provided at least three consignments of arms and ammunition and medical supplies and the services of three medical doctors to ICU. On July 25, 2006, an aircraft containing a shipment of arms arrived at the Baledogle airport and was met by ICU head of the security affairs, Sheikh Yusuf Mohamed Siyaad "Indohaadde," and the chairman of the Dayniile Islamic Court, Sheikh Hussein Janaqow. The UN monitoring team says that the arms shipment consisted of machine guns and M79 grenade launchers. On August 17, 2006, a large dhow containing foods and arms destined for ICU arrived in El-Adde seaport, Mogadishu. The arms consisted of 80 man-portable, shoulder-fired, surface-to-air missiles and rocket launchers.
Hezbollah: Supposedly, the Hezbollah movement has provided military training to ICU and has made arrangements with other states on behalf of ICU for the latter to receive arms. In mid-July 2006, ICU apparently sent about 720 men to Lebanon to fight alongside Hezbollah against the Israeli military. The Somali force was personally selected by ICU's Hizbul Shabaab (youth movement) leader Aden Hashi Farah "Eyrow." One of the selection criteria was an individual's combat experience, which might include experience in Afghanistan. In exchange for the contribution of the Somali military force, Hezbollah arranged for additional support to be given to ICU by the governments of Iran and Syria.
Libya: Furthermore, the UN monitoring report states that the Libyan government has sent military aircraft to Somalia and has provided training, funds and at least a consignment of arms in support of ICU. On July 24, 2006, a delegation of military officers arrived at the Baledogle airport and on July 26, participated in a meeting in Mogadishu with ICU officials and visiting Egyptian and Eritrean senior military officers at the house of ICU finance chief Abdulkadir Abukar Omar Adani. On July 31, 2006, a vessel with arms and foods for ICU docked early in the morning at the seaport of El-Ma'an.
Eritrea: The Eritrean government allegedly provided at least 28 separate consignments of arms, ammunition and military equipment. It also gave troops and training to the Islamic Courts Union. On April 26, a shipment of arms destined for ICU consisting of AK-47 assault rifles, PKM machine-guns, RPG-7s and ammunition arrived on a dhow at the seaport of El Ma'an. On May 6, an Eritrean Antonov military aircraft landed at Dhusamareeb in the Galgaduud region of Somalia. Awaiting the landing were about 75 people, five lorries and two Land Cruisers. The aircraft carried anti-aircraft guns which were loaded onto the lorries. On May 9, a dhow arrived at the El Ahmed seaport, and on board were fighters from Pakistan and the Oromo Liberation Front of Ethiopia. The fighters remained on the dhow. Five of the 75 people associated with the receipt of the anti-aircraft guns on May 6 boarded the dhow, along with some of anti-aircraft guns. ICU member Aden Hashi Farah "Eyrow," one of the leaders of the Hizbul Shabaab (youth movement), took possession of the arms and military uniforms.
Saudi Arabia: Furthermore, the document states that Saudi Arabia has given logistical support in the form of foodstuff and medicines intended for use by the ICU. On June 11, a C-130 aircraft left Jazan for the Baledogle airport. But the government said the flight had taken place for "medical" reasons. On August 14 , seven trucks containing logistical supplies, including foods and ammunition, left Mogadishu for an ICU location in the central regions of Somalia. Accompanying the convoy were 320 ICU fighters sent to reinforce fighters in the central regions.
Syria: On July 27, 200 ICU fighters were transported by aircraft to Syria for training in guerrilla warfare.[20
I don't know what to say about US and EU support if the ICU, but I can point this^ out.

I will repeat: I am not current on this info. I only know what I did, saw, and had inflicted on me. I am not an MI guy any more, and I don't want to be. In fact, I think I am going to bow out of this convo. I think I have provided enough for you to think aboutm if not believe or look into yourselves. I really only wanted to make the point that the ICU is an unsavory organization. They make me nervous as hell.

Down with extremism. *graps popcorn to watch the war*



Up with extremism. *graps popcorn to watch the war*

I will repeat: I am not current on this info. I only know what I did, saw, and had inflicted on me. I am not an MI guy any more, and I don't want to be. In fact, I think I am going to bow out of this convo. I think I have provided enough for you to think aboutm if not believe or look into yourselves. I really only wanted to make the point that the ICU is an unsavory organization. They make me nervous as hell.
Look, you haven't really given us any info on whether the Islamic Courts took part in training people who ended up shooting at you.

Fact of the matter is that this current movement was established way after the US left, as a armed group of supporters of the courts, which also provided education and healthcare as well as security.

While I may disagree with the interpretations and punishments dished out by some of the courts in the union, I can see that they are a group with a realistic chance of reuniting and stabilising Somalia.

The "government" in Baidoa has no such chance. They meet in a grain warehouse, and their only security forces are equipped and funded by Ethiopia. For years they haven't been able to get anywhere near pushing out the warlords and normalising the situation. Yet the Islamic Courts have done so in the space of a few months.

It's a phenomenon similar to Hamas. Because the organisations are united in faith, they don't fall to corruption and they don't get distracted from their goals ("Uncle Hamas cares for Palestine" (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,455632,00.html)).

While I don't like Hamas for their political stances, I can still believe that they're capable administrators and have done much good for the Palestinians. The Islamic Courts exhibit the same sort of promising characteristics. What their foreign policies will eventually look like is unclear, but it can't be worse for Somalia than what the warlords did.

okay fine. I am not going to argue you any more, sorry.

SO how bout them Saints? THink they will make it to the playoffs?

SO how bout them Saints? THink they will make it to the playoffs?

Considering they won their division, yes?

*does the gopher dance* I didn't realize that it was over! WooT!

Lets have the UN make things right in Africa just like they've done in the past!! I mean, food aid isn't a temporary solution, it really does fix the fundamental problems that is found at the root of most conflicts.

Oh wait...

Lets have the UN make things right in Africa just like they've done in the past!! I mean, food aid isn't a temporary solution, it really does fix the fundamental problems that is found at the root of most conflicts.

Oh wait...

The UN is shit, they solve nothing. I say lets dissolve the UN as they are a waste of time.:sniper:

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. But if they are shown to have any ties to Islamic terrorists, it will be time to take the actions necessary to destroy them and drive them out. We must tolerate, or even accept, Islamic states when they obey the law and do not fund extremism, but when they do we must work to stymie them or destroy them.

They seek to put Sharia law in. Therefore they are bastards.

They seek to put Sharia law in. Therefore they are bastards.

Yeah, although they haven't done that yet, all they've done is ban a drug and charcoal(Env. reasons) and they lifted the charcoal ban.

On September 21, 2006, the Islamic Courts issued a decree forbidding the sale of khat (a narcotic drug) in the daylight during the holy month of Ramadan. Mostly consumed in Somalia and imported from mainly Kenya, it is widely seen as destructive for families, loss of income, waste of productivity and the primary cause of banditry and drug addiction. On October 2, from Kismayo, the Islamic Courts burnt in public seven bags of Khat imported from Kenya which caused anger among Khat traders who instigated riots to express their dissatisfaction. [18] On November 17, 2006, the ICU banned the use, sale and transportation of Khat.

The decision was reached after the committee was briefed on the dangers posed by the indiscriminate cutting of our trees," he said. Almost all the charcoal goes to the Gulf States and Saudi Arabia, where a bag fetches about US $15. Local bandits and thugs were cutting down trees and burning them into charcoal. It was causing major destruction of the ecosystem, soil erosion and water scarcity. [16] However, the ban on charcoal was lifted after a month due to economical and political factors.

Although I can't say I'm optimistic, but hopefully they will create a much more liberal interpretation of Sharia than the Wahhabists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_Islamic_Courts#Social_policies

Ethiopia likes to declare war. Aren't they still at war with Eritrea?

No.

what you have to remember is taht all this is basically the end game of what happened back in 91 when Siad Barre was killed.

Siad Barre was not killed. He was deposed, and died in exile four years afterwards.

Siad Barre was not killed. He was deposed, and died in exile four years afterwards.


You're absolutely right. I had too many wikipedia pages open trying to remember who and what went where from years ago and got confused about who I was talking about. I think it was Shermarki who got murdered in a coup. Siad Barre somehow managed to get voted out of office and thrown out of the country right? Then there was somebody who didn't last long and then there was Adid as "president".

The point of my argument tho, was that as as the government broke down (as in Yugoslavia under Tito) then a bunch of feuding groups began to get help from outside sources and it turned the country into a worse mess than Barre made it. Then we got there and it really went to pot.

As if the people there don't have enough problems. The birth rate is among the highest in the world, but the land is so poor that it can't even sustain the population that lives there already. And if the current stream of droughts (perhaps brought on by climate change) continues...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6199239.stm
http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/News/0,,2-11-1447_2048607,00.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_war_in_Somalia

As it is, the Ethiopians don't want the Islamists who recently took Mogadishu and plan to bring their stability to Somalia (and apparently with the support of most of the population, which is sick of warlords and uncertainty) to stay. In support of their puppet government, Ethiopia has now officially declared war if I understand correctly, though a proxy conflict had been going on for a while. Jet fighters and artillery have begun bombardments.

Thoughts? News? Comments?

Allah will guide the Somalis to victory over the Ethiopians. There is no doubt about it.

You're absolutely right. I had too many wikipedia pages open trying to remember who and what went where from years ago and got confused about who I was talking about. I think it was Shermarki who got murdered in a coup. Siad Barre somehow managed to get voted out of office and thrown out of the country right? Then there was somebody who didn't last long and then there was Adid as president.

The point of my argument tho, was that as as the government broke down (as in Yugoslavia under Tito) then a bunch of feuding groups began to get help from outside sources and it turned the country into a worse mess than Barre made it. Then we got there and it really went to pot.

Siad Barre wasn't voted out. I don't think he even held presidential elections.

Siad Barre wasn't voted out. I don't think he even held presidential elections.

I thought he was. I thought that was the whole joke of it. THat he finally decided to have elections, and thought he was a shoe in, and then got slammed and had to run...I know he actrually tried two coups from outside the country after that...
Did he just get thrown out in the rebellion?

I thought he was. I thought that was the whole joke of it. THat he finally decided to have elections, and thought he was a shoe in, and then got slammed and had to run...I know he actrually tried two coups from outside the country after that...
Did he just get thrown out in the rebellion?

Yes, he did.

The only kind of elections he held were single-party, single-candidate ones, where you could vote "yes" or "no" and all candidates were hand-picked by the government.

Yes, he did.

The only kind of elections he held were single-party, single-candidate ones, where you could vote "yes" or "no" and all candidates were hand-picked by the government.


Ah. I always thought he actually held a write in and people decided to get rid of him, or at least try to send the message, and that kicked everything off. Then all the little rebel factions sort of combined and ran him out of the country. And then he got kicked out of the country he was in, came back to counter rebel, and got run off again. It always has been a strange region.

I always had a pet theory that the horn of Africa was going to be a supply area for America (we knew the whole middle east mess was coming)

As if the people there don't have enough problems. The birth rate is among the highest in the world, but the land is so poor that it can't even sustain the population that lives there already. And if the current stream of droughts (perhaps brought on by climate change) continues...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6199239.stm
http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/News/0,,2-11-1447_2048607,00.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_war_in_Somalia

As it is, the Ethiopians don't want the Islamists who recently took Mogadishu and plan to bring their stability to Somalia (and apparently with the support of most of the population, which is sick of warlords and uncertainty) to stay. In support of their puppet government, Ethiopia has now officially declared war if I understand correctly, though a proxy conflict had been going on for a while. Jet fighters and artillery have begun bombardments.

Thoughts? News? Comments?

I really like the way you call the legitimate Somali government, Ethiopia's "puppet government" without even knowing what's going on over their. Ethiopia didn't even install the government. The government is supported by the UN unlike the Islamists whose sole support is Al Qaeda and nonsomali jihadists out to kill any one who is Christian.
I can see you're being fair and balanced.

Neu, sorry. Your commentray is taking a really crap stance on the issue. The Islamicists took Mog by killing a bunch of innocent people. The UN has a governernment in place pending democratic elections much as we did in Yugoslavie and elsewhere and the islamicists are attacking them, and into ethiopia. THey are attacking into ethiopia to kill the christians living there, and have been for years. While I know ethiopia isn't a great counrty, I am afriad I support them this time. Last time I was in Somalia tehre were a bunch of Taliban trained militiamen shooting at us. I say let ethiopia lay some whoops ass down on them.

To claim that the scum who are trying to take over Somolia by murdering anybody dumb enough to argue are "bringing stability" to the region is silly. They are as bad as it gets. And yeah, they "apparently support" them because if they didn't they would get starved to death. Sometimes a liberal left position isn't always the right perspective. Try looking at it from a "all of them are awful" perspective. The only way the area will ever calm down is if someone from outside imposes some decency upon them. We should have stayed after Oct 3, 93.

The locals don't even support the militia. The only reason they don't speak out is because the Islamists banned free speech, shut down independent newspapers and execute anyone who dares speak against them. The people of Somalia are terrified of the Islamists. Being afraid of someone should not be mistaken as support for that person.

erm...are you agreeing with me or arguing with me? cause that's pretty much waht I was saying. Although much clearer than I managed he he!'

My deployment to somalia was awful, for a bunch of reasons. I can't imagine it suddenly becoming a better place. I CAN easily imagine foriegn fundementalists deciding that it was an out of the way place and they might make a good base out of it. And all they would have to do is buy some locals with guns and cash...

I seem to remember they did that in Afghanistan a few years ago as well, eh?

Actually, I'm agreeing with what you posted. I just think the OP is way out there on this one.

I really like the way you call the legitimate Somali government, Ethiopia's "puppet government" without even knowing what's going on over their. Ethiopia didn't even install the government.
And yet, this "government" only exists because Ethiopia is sending it the troops it needs to hold on to those few villages it actually controls. This has however only been going on since the current boss of the government came to power, since he has what one politely calls "good relations" with Ethiopia. Previously, the Ethiopians weren't exactly respectful of the Baidoa Gang.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitional_Federal_Government
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_involvement_in_Somalia

It's a joke.

The government is supported by the UN...
Recognised, not supported. It's not quite the same thing.

And besides, so far any support has been wasted. The Baidoa government has been happy just trundling along and probably filling their pockets along the way, just like all "governments" in the last ten years.

...unlike the Islamists whose sole support is Al Qaeda and nonsomali jihadists out to kill any one who is Christian.
Prove it. I posted several links about the Islamic Courts and the way they're being seen by the Somalis.

But neither you nor Rooseveldt have so far shown me anything that supports your view.

I do not have access to the classified documents I woudl need to prove that fact any more.

But I DID post a large page of spooky issues that the UN had uncovered. I suppose UN watchdogs aren't good enough for you, eh? You want someone with REAL experience, like the CIA huh? *giggles*

If my UN facts aren't enough to porve that the UCI is a nasty group, then perhaps this will help:

In practical terms, the vision of a Greater Somalia was sidelined by years of anarchy in the Somali Civil War but in late 2006, Sheikh Hassan Dahir Aweys, head of the Islamic Courts Union that controls much of southern Somalia, declared that, "We will leave no stone unturned to integrate our Somali brothers in Kenya and Ethiopia and restore their freedom to live with their ancestors in Somalia."

so now he has threatened Kenya as well. Dude, did you somehow miss the page where i cited those UN reports or are you just ignoring them in hope they'll go away?

There have been allegations that Osama bin Laden's Al-Qaeda movement was involved in training and funding of Aidid's men. In his 2001 book, Holy War, Inc., CNN reporter Peter Bergen interviewed Bin Laden who affirmed these allegations. According to Bergen, Bin Laden asserted that fighters affiliated with his group were involved in killing American troops in Somalia in 1993, a claim he had earlier made to the Arabic newspaper Al-Quds Al-Arabi. According to CNN, al-Qaeda claimed to have supplied a large number of Soviet-designed rocket-propelled grenade launchers (RPGs) to Aidid's fighters, and instructed them in ways to modify the RPGs to make them more effective against helicopters.[]

THis was AQ's original contact. It didn't just occur with Aidid. THey were building inroads to Somalia knowing that their situation with the sudan was shakey. They ended up going to the Ta;liban instead but the ties remained.

THey are dirty, man. I am not saying that from the point of veiw of the Somolians they might not be a good thing (short term) but they are going to be our next hit, I think. And it will be UN and NATO led.

I do not have access to the classified documents I woudl need to prove that fact any more.

Riiight. :rolleyes:

But I DID post a large page of spooky issues that the UN had uncovered. I suppose UN watchdogs aren't good enough for you, eh? You want someone with REAL experience, like the CIA huh? *giggles*
No you didn't. You posted some rambling pants from Wikipedia about potential arms supplyers.


-snip-
Seriously, have you just been using Wiki for your argument the whole time?!

Riiight. :rolleyes:.
Oh go fuck yourself little man.


No you didn't. You posted some rambling pants from Wikipedia about potential arms supplyers.
um...yes I did. Are you trying to say that that list was a lie on the wiki page or taht the UN was wrong? or am I missing your point? I could be, because as I have said I haven't been in in some time and certainly haven't kept up with something that happened 13 years ago. Especually when I haven't been in the military in 8 years.


Seriously, have you just been using Wiki for your argument the whole time?!

no. But it is an easy way to sort of
a) make sure what I remember is factage and not me confusing with some other place or story (I have been through a number of war zones from Panama to Kosovo)
b) lazily link to easy factage for you people who enjoy belittling and bewailing evything ever posted or claimed as fact, mostly because you like pissing and moaing and insulting people instead of listening and thinking and possibly accepting as fact a person's claims.

I joined the US army Nov 1, 1988. I got out Dec 19, 1998. Between the two I did more than you will ever hope to watch on tv. That you may not believe it is the least of my worries.
in short, go find someone else to make fun of. I don't need to prove anything to you, especially about myself.

It didn't just occur with Aidid.
And that's what you'd have to substantiate.

Aidid is dead, and his son is a US Marine. I couldn't find anything that shows me that Aidid and the Islamic Courts (especially not today's Union, which only formed a few years ago) worked together, or indeed would work together. What I know about him (which isn't much, I admit) tells me that he wasn't even particularly religious.

And the spooky issues you were talking about were mainly who sent supplies to the Union militia. The only one of the parties mentioned that would be questionable is Hezbollah. But again, if you look past their anti-Israel part, they're a well-organised political party and armed militia. It shouldn't be surprising that that sort of expertise would be used to train others.

Though Hezbollah is Shia, and the Union is Sunni, plus the two don't really have any common interests as such. So I don't see them working together beyond the occasional paid training.

The thing about integrating Somalis is another matter entirely. They haven't made concrete steps to that effect as far as I know, and I don't know whether the other parties in the country think similarly about a "Greater Somalia". Either way, it doesn't seem to be their main priority at the moment.

The thing about the Union is that they aren't a unified force as such. There's lots of different leaders, and apart from military matters, they are largely free to decide things as they like. So you have radicals on one side and moderates on the other, all working together.

Oh go fuck yourself little man.

Hi. Welcome to an adult debate.



um...yes I did.

Fine. You're using Wiki to back up your claims- until you source around abit to get some credible back up...

I'm done *dusts hands*

Oh, Neu - an addition: Eritrea has sent troops to back up the UIC.

The UN estimates that at least 8,000 Ethiopian troops may be in the country, while rival Eritrea is said to have deployed some 2,000 troops in support of the Islamic group.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6208549.stm

And that's what you'd have to substantiate.

Aidid is dead, and his son is a US Marine. I couldn't find anything that shows me that Aidid and the Islamic Courts (especially not today's Union, which only formed a few years ago) worked together, or indeed would work together. What I know about him (which isn't much, I admit) tells me that he wasn't even particularly religious.

And the spooky issues you were talking about were mainly who sent supplies to the Union militia. The only one of the parties mentioned that would be questionable is Hezbollah. But again, if you look past their anti-Israel part, they're a well-organised political party and armed militia. It shouldn't be surprising that that sort of expertise would be used to train others.

Though Hezbollah is Shia, and the Union is Sunni, plus the two don't really have any common interests as such. So I don't see them working together beyond the occasional paid training.

The thing about integrating Somalis is another matter entirely. They haven't made concrete steps to that effect as far as I know, and I don't know whether the other parties in the country think similarly about a "Greater Somalia". Either way, it doesn't seem to be their main priority at the moment.

I am aware that I cannot verify things that have another ten or twelve years to be declassified. Which is why I said I couldn't. Adid was pretty secular. His son was pro west in a weird way. And he is NOT a marine. He is a guy who was in the marines. Just because it is a saying that "once a marine always a marine" doesn't mean that the marines accept you as such.
So you aren't worried about the illegal arms shipments from Hezbollah, or syria or Iran or Egypt or Saudi Arabia? You have gotta be kidding me. Look, as I said before, I don't really want to joust here. I simply stated what I experienced years ago. It was common knowledge among those who knew such things that AQ was building ties in Somolia as they had in Sudan and Afghanistan. THe war screwed much of that up (not stable enough to settle in and build real training camps there) but they certainly still play there. You are welcome to look at the ICU as shining heros on the hill and all that but they are dirty. And bad will come of them. what else can I say?

Fine. You're using Wiki to back up your claims- until you source around abit to get some credible back up...

I won't be bothering unless I find something interesating to me personally.
I find this a lot more interesting than your link about crap that we all knew would happen. It's going regional like everyone said it was going to. What else is new?


Hi. Welcome to an adult debate.

you keep missing it when I keep saying I am not trying to debate anything, but rather to give personal examples of my sexperiences from the region which you can use or not? Call me a commentator rather than a debator and you will be closer.


THIS
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/16/AR2006051601625_pf.html
is interesting. Especially if the crap I found on wiki is true. It has two implications that I can think of right away:

1) we are funding people we shouldn't be funding in order to bring down someone we don't like for strategic reasonings that have usually been faulty before (ie bin laden in afghanistan)
2) it's not just going regional. It's going global.

I am aware that I cannot verify things that have another ten or twelve years to be declassified. Which is why I said I couldn't.
And you don't think the US would be happy to say so if they had evidence of AQ working together with the UIC?

All I ever hear is "concerns", and money then going to gangs that behave no better (or may indeed behave worse).

Adid was pretty secular. His son was pro west in a weird way. And he is NOT a marine. He is a guy who was in the marines. Just because it is a saying that "once a marine always a marine" doesn't mean that the marines accept you as such.
http://www.boston.com/news/daily/11/somali_warlord.htm
Depends on who you talk to, I suppose. But nevermind.

So you aren't worried about the illegal arms shipments from Hezbollah, or syria or Iran or Egypt or Saudi Arabia?
And what makes them more illegal than the shipments everyone else has been sending to everyone in Somalia?

I'm no more worried about those countries picking a side to support than I am about anyone else. The US has been sending millions of dollars to rival gangs. It's what you do in a case like this, I suppose.

It was common knowledge among those who knew such things that AQ was building ties in Somolia as they had in Sudan and Afghanistan.
Obviously, and I never doubted that. I doubt that the UIC and Al-Qaeda have meaningful connections, or that the UIC would have a particular interest in housing training camps (and if there is one thing AQ doesn't need any more of, it's training camps - they've got the web these days, and Pakistan), given that all eyes will be on them.

You are welcome to look at the ICU as shining heros on the hill and all that but they are dirty. And bad will come of them. what else can I say?
I say they're no more dirty than all the other dirty parties in that country. But at least they're a dirty party with a good reputation among the populace, a bit of a track record of integrity and for the first time in many years offer a chance to get Somalia back on track, even if that track isn't one you particularly like.

I won't be bothering unless I find something interesating to me personally.
Then why are you even bothering then?

I find this a lot more interesting than your link about crap that we all knew would happen. It's going regional like everyone said it was going to. What else is new?
My link was not intended for you but for the general readers of this thread who may or may not have been aware of the ongoing situation. Unlike you it appears who can foresee these events and make the call that it's not warranted posting them for everyone else.



you keep missing it when I keep saying I am not trying to debate anything, but rather to give personal examples of my sexperiences from the region which you can use or not? Call me a commentator rather than a debator and you will be closer.
Fine, but even your comments seem to be out of sync with what happened (how the UIC came into being, when they did, who was involved in them and in essence - what they are)


THIS
is interesting. Especially if the crap I found on wiki is true. It has two implications that I can think of right away:

1) we are funding people we shouldn't be funding in order to bring down someone we don't like for strategic reasonings that have usually been faulty before (ie bin laden in afghanistan)
2) it's not just going regional. It's going global.

Thank you, that's the kind of sources I'm talking about. Wiki is fine for a broad overview of a situation or person but is not something to wave around going "Proof! I have proof aliens exist" *waves paper in the air*
Just something to be aware of if you intend to hang around here much.

And you don't think the US would be happy to say so if they had evidence of AQ working together with the UIC?
If they still have assets in country, no, they won't. Assets like we had are more valueable than gold. You don't commit them unless you can get them out, have no need for them anymore, or they are dead.


All I ever hear is "concerns", and money then going to gangs that behave no better (or may indeed behave worse).

concerns in the intel community general are a nice way to say "They are doing it". And I think maybe you missed my comment on the whle damned thing about helping people we shouldn't. But it's going to bite us like Bin Laden did.


http://www.boston.com/news/daily/11/somali_warlord.htm
Depends on who you talk to, I suppose. But nevermind.
we'll see

Some of his fellow Marines believe that if it comes down to divided loyalties, the culture of the corps will transcend that of the clan.
it does indeed depend upon who you interview. I don't happen to agree personally but I wasn't a marine. Maybe he will throw in with us. But I have also read a lot of what he has done. He was never a marine. He was a guy who was in the marines. And a reserveist to boot.



And what makes them more illegal than the shipments everyone else has been sending to everyone in Somalia?

exactly what I have BEEN saying all along. THEY ARE ALL DIRTY!

I'm no more worried about those countries picking a side to support than I am about anyone else. The US has been sending millions of dollars to rival gangs. It's what you do in a case like this, I suppose.

sure. If you want it to go global. And cause even more trouble. And if you want the mess you make to grow out of control and come back and eat your lunch. But I suppose it's what you do in a case like this.

Obviously, and I never doubted that. I doubt that the UIC and Al-Qaeda have meaningful connections, or that the UIC would have a particular interest in housing training camps (and if there is one thing AQ doesn't need any more of, it's training camps - they've got the web these days, and Pakistan), given that all eyes will be on them.

they need places to hide and work. Viruses never build one population center, Neither does AQ. They know they will lose Pakistan one day. When they do they intend to be prepared. Wouldn't you?


I say they're no more dirty than all the other dirty parties in that country. But at least they're a dirty party with a good reputation among the populace, a bit of a track record of integrity and for the first time in many years offer a chance to get Somalia back on track, even if that track isn't one you particularly like.

I just hope you are right. But my belief is that this thing will have real repercussions. They may not be obvious to us now, or ever. But every earthquake leaves cracks somewhere. I am afraid of this one.

Then why are you even bothering then?My link was not intended for you but for the general readers of this thread who may or may not have been aware of the ongoing situation. Unlike you it appears who can foresee these events and make the call that it's not warranted posting them for everyone else.
Fine, but even your comments seem to be out of sync with what happened (how the UIC came into being, when they did, who was involved in them and in essence - what they are)
Thank you, that's the kind of sources I'm talking about. Wiki is fine for a broad overview of a situation or person but is not something to wave around going "Proof! I have proof aliens exist" *waves paper in the air*
Just something to be aware of if you intend to hang around here much.
My comments seem to be out of sync with what is claimed to be how they came about. Did the CIA ever admit to funding Air America? Why would AQ admit to funding the damned ICU? then they wouldn't have any assets to use should they ever need them, right?

Wiki as I said is just fine for me, thanks. I am not claiming anything that I can't trhow out from it--and I do it to verify that what I think I remember is actually what heppened. Not to impress you. That link was off the same wiki page I quoted earlier. GUess that means Wiki IS good enough, eh?

I am afraid of this one.
Well, I'm not.

Somalia is a sad strip of dry, dusty land. It's overpopulated, and has no infrastructure or great resource wealth to speak of.

There's millions of people there waiting for a slow death. The only people who can help would be a strong central government. And the only party in the country who could form such a government is the UIC. Sure, I'd prefer some sort of democratic secular party to take over, but that's not gonna happen.

It's a matter of trade-offs, and the UIC taking over seems a whole lot better than Ethiopia continuing its regional power fantasies, while looking away as its own population is heading for disaster as well.

And the same goes for Eritrea.

Well, I'm not.

Somalia is a sad strip of dry, dusty land. It's overpopulated, and has no infrastructure or great resource wealth to speak of.

There's millions of people there waiting for a slow death. The only people who can help would be a strong central government. And the only party in the country who could form such a government is the UIC. Sure, I'd prefer some sort of democratic secular party to take over, but that's not gonna happen.

It's a matter of trade-offs, and the UIC taking over seems a whole lot better than Ethiopia continuing its regional power fantasies, while looking away as its own population is heading for disaster as well.

And the same goes for Eritrea.
the horn has always had a special place in the hearts and minds of strategists. Somolia is not a dry sad place to them. It is the heart of a future battle grounf for all of africa, and a stepping off point to the middle east.
If we cede it to radical islam, they will inflame the region much like RUssia did, cause ever more turmoil (alread are suggesting it in kenya and are DOING it in Ethriopia and Eretria. Honestly I wonder what we (the world) could even do about it. Somolia CAN prduce enoug food for itself. It has just chosen not to. It seems like one of those "end of armageddon" stories where the people are reduced to throwing rocks over a dry burn out landscape. Fighting to take control and they;ve destroyed the only thing worth having. And then the predators lean over the fighters, ready to grab the scraps.

that whole tri state area needs help up. THey shoul dbecome a confederated state or something, because their poulations overlap so much. But they just want to fight like crazies. And when we step in we get whacked to, because the islamic fundamentalists want their own hoos int the region.

My comments seem to be out of sync with what is claimed to be how they came about. Did the CIA ever admit to funding Air America? Why would AQ admit to funding the damned ICU? then they wouldn't have any assets to use should they ever need them, right?
No your comments seem to be out of sync with what is known - not claimed.

Well then, I guess I'll just wait for those CIA documents to be declassified in 10-15 years or so shall I? Oooh, I'm on tenderhooks.

Wiki as I said is just fine for me, thanks. I am not claiming anything that I can't trhow out from it--and I do it to verify that what I think I remember is actually what heppened. Not to impress you.
Em, right. I don't particularly care if you were trying to impress me or not.

That link was off the same wiki page I quoted earlier. GUess that means Wiki IS good enough, eh?
No it doesn't. Nothing is 'good enough' if some randomer can log on a change the 'facts'. Hence my dislike of Wiki for anything other than a basic overview - its a pretty common thing and its not directed at you specifically.

For someone who doesn't really care about this, you seem to be getting fairly uppity about it.

Ethiopia vs Somalia is like a WWF midget fight. I think we could prolly brodcast it on Pay-per-view. If they decide to use chicks and mud then the ratings could have no limit.

As if the people there don't have enough problems. The birth rate is among the highest in the world, but the land is so poor that it can't even sustain the population that lives there already. And if the current stream of droughts (perhaps brought on by climate change) continues...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6199239.stm
http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/News/0,,2-11-1447_2048607,00.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_war_in_Somalia

As it is, the Ethiopians don't want the Islamists who recently took Mogadishu and plan to bring their stability to Somalia (and apparently with the support of most of the population, which is sick of warlords and uncertainty) to stay. In support of their puppet government, Ethiopia has now officially declared war if I understand correctly, though a proxy conflict had been going on for a while. Jet fighters and artillery have begun bombardments.

Thoughts? News? Comments?

Well, they don't have a functioning government, so none of their problems are going to get any better as it is. Ethiopia conquering them might be the best thing to happen to them since they collapsed, if only they have the good sense to surrender quickly. Of course, they really can't, since they don't have a government.

I don't know why anyone thinks it's even an option for Ethiopia to walk in, smash the terrorist bad guys and walk out leaving behind a nice little democracy. After all, the most powerful country in the world tried that one, and we all know how that's turning out. All that can happen here is that Ethiopia spends all the money it's impoverished people don't have dragging Somalia even further into the shit-can than it's ever been before. And providing yet another rallying point for Al-Qaeda's global jihad.

The problem in Somalia is the same problem as in Palestine, which is that the Islamists are the only people not up to their ears in corruption. The average Somali may or may not agree with their religious convictions, but when the price of rice drops 60% because they get rid of illegal roadblocks, you can't argue with that.

Yeah, although they haven't done that yet,
Although I can't say I'm optimistic, but hopefully they will create a much more liberal interpretation of Sharia than the Wahhabists.
I'd only support them if they threw out Sharia law all together. If it was possible I would go back in time and snatch the creator of Sharia law so he could never create it.

Why can't we all just get along?

Why can't we all just get along?

QFT.