NationStates Jolt Archive

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On Earth peace to men of good will. As for those of bad will, there is only one destiny for them. Castro should drink lots of icewater :p

Hmm. Well this is actually super sad.

I hope Castro lives, he's been the best leader in the Caribbean in the last 50 years, for sure.

Sucks for him. Not the rest of the world, though.

If you had his power legaly instead of being a dictator I would mourn his dying.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16346039/

On Earth peace to men of good will. As for those of bad will, there is only one destiny for them. Castro should drink lots of icewater :p

Are you asking God to strike down a fellow man on Christmas Eve?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16346039/

On Earth peace to men of good will. As for those of bad will, there is only one destiny for them. Castro should drink lots of icewater :p

And yet, Pinochet you mourn. Because it's not about taking power via a coup and killing dissenters for you, it's about agreeing with your views. You'll be happy if Castro because he disagreed with you, not because he was a dictator.

I live in Miami, it's going to be absolute hell when he dies.

To my knowledge the Cuban people like Castro. His death would surely not be a very good gift.

To my knowledge the Cuban people like Castro. His death would surely not be a very good gift.
Indeed, especially when a fascist of some kind is installed. That will be very sad indeed (the US probably isn't going to let the opportunity pass).

Is it a good thing that an evil dictator is dying and his people will finally be free? Absolutely. But remember, things are going to get much WORSE for the Cuban people after Fidel Castro dies, at least for the first 10 years. The US, Canada, Venezuela, Brazil, and the European countries with vested interests on the island are going to clean up bigtime once the island is opened up, theres no denying that. Right now, their entire economy is based on the US dollar, so lets see if that will cushion the blow for the average Cuban. On the positive side, Cubans will finally be able to travel outside their island prison, and the modern world will flood their poor country with the goods and services they so desperately need.

Did you deliberately post the message saying "Ugh, not again" four times? :p

Anyway, hoping for someone's death—how Christian.

Anyway, hoping for someone's death—how Christian.
I don't think that New Mitanni claims to be one.

I don't think that New Mitanni claims to be one.

Well if (s)he will make an ostensibly Christian post.

Well if (s)he will make an ostensibly Christian post.
How is
On Earth peace to men of good will.
Christian?

In a church you're likely to hear:

On Earth peace to all people

I don't think that New Mitanni claims to be one.

He's nothing but a troll, and one of those kind that really piss you off, too. He only shows up once in a while, but when he does it's usually extremely annoying.

He's nothing but a troll, and one of those kind that really piss you off, too. He only shows up once in a while, but when he does it's usually extremely annoying.
Yes, I find it unbelievable that a real person could actually hold many of his views.

How is

Christian?

In a church you're likely to hear:

It's a viable translation of Luke 2:14, Google tells me.

Yes, I find it unbelievable that a real person could actually hold many of his views.
Possibly they are actually a rogue AI, intent on cheesing off most of the world for a laugh. Who knows.

It'd be a sad day when he died.Some people bang on about him being a dictator and being teh ebil,but he's a far better leader than many I can think of.Hope he gets better,as unlikely as it is.

It'd be a sad day when he died.Some people bang on about him being a dictator and being teh ebil,but he's a far better leader than many I can think of.Hope he gets better,as unlikely as it is.

Just don't do the same thing they do and become a hypocrite by praising him just because he supports your views. You look rather idiotic that way.

I'm not saying you're doing that, since clearly you're not. I'm merely providing a word of caution. Too often we point out hypocrisy on one side of the debate while ignoring our own.

It'd be a sad day when he died.Some people bang on about him being a dictator and being teh ebil,but he's a far better leader than many I can think of.Hope he gets better,as unlikely as it is.

He was far from the worst, I'll agree with you on that. He made a lot of improvements and really brought the country up from the shithole it was in 1957.

At the same time, however, I think the Cuban people should have more rights and the ability to truly choose their leaders and economic policies in a free political system.

It's a viable translation of Luke 2:14, Google tells me.
That's true, but I always thought of that phrase as being universal. God loves non-Christians as much as He does Christians. He loves evil people and good people.

That's true, but I always thought of that phrase as being universal. God loves non-Christians as much as He does Christians. He loves evil people and good people.

Sweet deal for the evil people.

Sure, he is a murderous dictator that imprisoned dissenters, but he still is the best leader Cuba has ever had.

Cuba's future will depend on who ends up as leader of the Communist Party and how strong they are to keep control of Cuba.

Sure, he is a murderous dictator that imprisoned dissenters, but he still is the best leader Cuba has ever had.

Cuba's future will depend on who ends up as leader of the Communist Party and how strong they are to keep control of Cuba.

Raul probably.

And judging by this he's ready to take Cuba in a newer direction.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6208283.stm

Back on topic, I would also agree that the Cubans should have elections upon the death of Fidel.

and the modern world will flood their poor country with the goods and services they so desperately need.

At prices only the corrupt and powerful will be able to afford. The average Cuban citizen is going to get shafted once the world comes in, no two ways about that.

Like it or not, Castro at least made sure that his people were fed, clothed and housed. The US isn't going to give a rat's ass about that unless they can pay top dollar.

Cubans will finally be able to travel outside their island prison, and the modern world will flood their poor country with the goods and services they so desperately need.

like what happened to the Russians? :rolleyes:

Hmm. Well this is actually super sad.

I hope Castro lives, he's been the best leader in the Caribbean in the last 50 years, for sure.

Please tell me that, tell my family members in Cuba, if you were an average Cuban citizen with no rights at all to express your views on this forum, with no rights to disagree with the government on any policy or laws, I wonder how you would feel.

like what happened to the Russians? :rolleyes:

Well said! And thats problably what will happen in the future if USA gets power over the country. I don't think USA cares about democracy in Cuba as long as it doesn't serve their purposes.

Well said! And thats problably what will happen in the future if USA gets power over the country. I don't think USA cares about democracy in Cuba as long as it doesn't serve their purposes.

While there are Republicans in Congress who dont care about democracy in Cuba, those commie loving Liberal Democrats in control of Congress dont care about democracy in Cuba.

While there are Republicans in Congress who dont care about democracy in Cuba, those commie loving Liberal Democrats in control of Congress dont care about democracy in Cuba.

Well, yeah. That's what he said. I don't know why you had to break it down into Republicans and Democrats - because he didn't.

My theory (a la Mill) : If they (the majority) wanted to overthrow him that bad, they would have done so already. Since no, I can only assume they are content enough with their lot. *shrug*

Well, yeah. That's what he said. I don't know why you had to break it down into Republicans and Democrats - because he didn't.

My theory (a la Mill) : If they (the majority) wanted to overthrow him that bad, they would have done so already. Since no, I can only assume they are content enough with their lot. *shrug*

I broke it down into Republicans and Democrats because in my view, many or most Democrats in Congress who are now in control of Congress, are commie loving liberals.

You never have lived under a real true dictatorship like I have,
Committees for the Defense of the Revolution that report and keep
records of every citizen's loyalty or not to the government.

No rights to disagree with any government policy or laws,
no rights to try to change those laws through your so-called democratically elected representatives, a one political party state where according to the government 99 percent of voters vote for and support the government,
no rights to participate on a forum like Nation States - Jolt Co UK Forums,
Government organized mobs against political dissidents, etc, etc, etc.

A president for life, how would you all like to live under President Bush for life, Tony Blair for life, etc, etc, etc, that is the diffrence.

Indeed, especially when a fascist of some kind is installed. That will be very sad indeed (the US probably isn't going to let the opportunity pass).

I find it hard to believe that anyone can hold the opinion that the U.S. will not do all it can to bring about democratic elections in Cuba after Castro's death.

After our big debacle in the Middle East "spreading freedom", it would be mighty stupid of the U.S. to reverse that policy in our own back yard.

Our elected leaders tend to be dolts, but even I give them more credit than that.

The U.S. will not "install" any "fascists"...though just how much influence they will have over any potential elections is certainly up for debate.

You never have lived under a real true dictatorship like I have...
I thought you lived in exile with your family. How old are you?

I thought you lived in exile with your family. How old are you?

I never ask anyone thier age, that said,
old enough to live under Fidel,
at this rate if Fidel dont die soon,
ill die before Fidel in exile,
I will never set foot on Cuba until that HP dies
and or Cuba changes.

I never ask anyone thier age, that said,
old enough to live under Fidel,
at this rate if Fidel dont die soon,
ill die before Fidel in exile,
I will never set foot on Cuba until that HP dies
and or Cuba changes.

In other words 'I am the child of Cubans who left Cuba before I was born', yes?

In other words 'I am the child of Cubans who left Cuba before I was born', yes?


not necessarily. Could have been born and lived there easily as a kid. He'd be at least 47 now.

not necessarily. Could have been born and lived there easily as a kid. He'd be at least 47 now.

Yup, but without wanting to cast aspirations in his direction, I believe he is currently being intentionally evasive in order to strengthen his anecdotal argument.

hey, I was just pointing out some basic chronological facts. As to his own asperations....I just kow it's 4:20 am and I am going to bed. Hope you guys save the world...:D

I am hoping for a New Year's present.

On Earth peace to men of good will.
Your peace offer misses the mark:

Our Father, who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy Name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, As we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen.

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On Earth peace to men of good will. As for those of bad will, there is only one destiny for them. Castro should drink lots of icewater :pInteresting. What makes you think wishing someone ill could be good will? Will you be keeping him company?

In a church you're likely to hear:

"Peace on earth, and good will towards all. Whenever it's, y'know, convinent"

-The Boondocks

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16346039/

On Earth peace to men of good will. As for those of bad will, there is only one destiny for them. Castro should drink lots of icewater :p

Blow it out your backside, o smug prig.

Blow it out your backside, o smug prig.

*Applause*

Please tell me that, tell my family members in Cuba, if you were an average Cuban citizen with no rights at all to express your views on this forum, with no rights to disagree with the government on any policy or laws, I wonder how you would feel.
You're a liar. Sinuhue visited Cuba and spoke with many people who were critical of the government.

Our elected leaders tend to be dolts, but even I give them more credit than that.

The U.S. will not "install" any "fascists"...though just how much influence they will have over any potential elections is certainly up for debate.
Haiti.

I broke it down into Republicans and Democrats because in my view, many or most Democrats in Congress who are now in control of Congress, are commie loving liberals.
No doubt everyone to the left of Mussolini qualifies.

Did you deliberately post the message saying "Ugh, not again" four times? :p.

Sorry, just a hiccup on my PC, I deleted the multiples.


Anyway, hoping for someone's death—how Christian.

Well, thats rather presumptuous of you to assume we are all christians. And as for wishing death on others being un-christian, tell that to Pat Robertson.

Quote: "You know, I don't know about this doctrine of assassination, but if he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it. It's a whole lot cheaper than starting a war ... We have the ability to take him out, and I think the time has come that we exercise that ability. We don't need another $200 billion war to get rid of one, you know, strong-arm dictator. It's a whole lot easier to have some of the covert operatives do the job and then get it over with." –Pat Robertson, calling for the assassination of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez

Quote: "Wait a minute, I didn't say 'assassination.' I said our special forces should 'take him out,' and 'take him out' can be a number of things, including kidnapping." –Pat Robertson, clarifying his call to assassinate Hugo Chavez

Quote: "Is it right to call for assassination? No, and I apologize for that statement. I spoke in frustration that we should accommodate the man who thinks the U.S. is out to kill him." –Pat Robertson



:rolleyes:

If he does die, i sure hope the embargo is lifted so i can stop buying my Upmann Magnums online from the Swiss.

Please tell me that, tell my family members in Cuba, if you were an average Cuban citizen with no rights at all to express your views on this forum, with no rights to disagree with the government on any policy or laws, I wonder how you would feel.

Let me ask you this. Which would you rather be? An average citizen in Cuba under Castro, or an average citizen in "democratic" Russia?

No, you cannot choose to be any of the elite or privileged groups.

On one hand, you may not get much freedoms politically, but at least you'll be fed, clothed and housed adequately.

On the other hand, you have as much political freedom as your local ruling coalition desires, ranging from a lot to none, and you get to freeze or starve to death due to severe unemployment.

Thats what's going to happen to Cuba if they underwent "democratization" ala Russia.

Political freedoms don't mean much when you're freezing to death with nothing in your stomach.

Let me ask you this. Which would you rather be? An average citizen in Cuba under Castro, or an average citizen in "democratic" Russia?

No, you cannot choose to be any of the elite or privileged groups.

On one hand, you may not get much freedoms politically, but at least you'll be fed, clothed and housed adequately.

On the other hand, you have as much political freedom as your local ruling coalition desires, ranging from a lot to none, and you get to freeze or starve to death due to severe unemployment..

To assume that just because people "have enough to eat" in Cuba means they are better off remaining under the status quo is ludicrous at best.

Fact 1: The entire Cuban economy runs on the AMERICAN DOLLAR RIGHT NOW. That means that the Cuban Peso is nearly worthless because only with US dollars can Cuans buy the REAL goods they need, not just the government welfare subsistence they get with their pesos. So the US already has the foot in the door economically. Don't believe me, do your reasarch, better yet, talk to CUBANS who lived under the regime or travel there yourself as I have.

Fact 2: The US embargo is not to blame for the problems in Cuba. There is an entire WORLD out there that the island can choose to do business with: China, pretty much all of South America, Eastern Europe, etc, without interference from DC. But Castro has chosen to LIE to the people and drum the Anti-American rhetoric into their heads while controlling all information, keeping Cubans ignorant to the world around them. Yeah, a great leader Castro is.

Fact 3: The deals are done. Lets not be so naive. Once Fidel is Dead, Raul will basically turn over and allow the US and its interests in and the entire regime will collapse in a matter of a few years. Cubans in exile will finally be reunited with their families, and travel will finally open up to the people inside Cuba. Will it be hard? Hell yes, change is never easy. How long will it take? That depends on how much the Cubans want to change. No matter how hard, it is always a positive thing when oppresive dictators die.

And again, don't take my word for it, do your own research, travel and talk to REAL Cubans who have lived and/or are living under the regime.


Thats what's going to happen to Cuba if they underwent "democratization" ala Russia.

Political freedoms don't mean much when you're freezing to death with nothing in your stomach.


Again, apples to oranges. Political freedom means nothing if you are not willing to struggle and fight for it. I would rather live hungry and free than in chains with a fat belly. :cool:

What the OP means to say is "A Christmas Present For Rich American Investors".

Castro's pretty bad, but he's still the best leader the region's ever seen.

New Callixtina, you seem a little, off, in your apparent facts.
First and foremost because your location thing suggests you're an American, and as such it's illegal for you to travel to Cuba. So, barring super-special permission from the government, I doubt you made any trips to Cuba, or if you did you risk serious punishment from your government by saying you have, and you would know that.
Now the US Embargo on Cuba, has statistically dropped the quality of life in Cuba. You can see this quite plainly because every time the US tightens, or reiterates their embargo, the quality of life in cuba drops simply from US pressure on Cuba's major trading parties, which are Canada, China, and parts of Europe. This is further expressed by the Helms-Burton act which specifically attacks foreign nations doing buisness with Cuba, in an attempt to isolate Cuba. All travel restrictions to and from Cuba are imposed by the US, not Cuba, not its neighbors. And of all the Cubans I have talked to (Way too many I think, both who fled and who stayed) the general consensus comes down to this, all the Cubans who flee flee because they have family who fled when their "aristocratic" life was crushed in the revolution, or because they want to make it big in life and the communist system does not allow that. And apparently, because of the high quality education, healthcare, and that fact that everyone has a house and food, alot of Cubans stay, and some who flee to the US even go back.
These images of Cubans taking a leaky raft to Florida to become americans, the fault of US policy. I know Cubans who legally imigrated to Canada, without ever having to set foot in Florida or a leaky boat. And I know Cubans who did the leaky boat thing to the US, and I even know some who did the leaky boat thing to the US, and then went back to Cuba.
But what happens when the rest of the world trades with Cuba? US navy and coast guard ships get in the way. Same when they travel. The fact that travel is still not restricted by military force is a simple testement to the US unwillingness to shoot down the aircraft of its closest allies for a trade embargo, and the Cuban's abilities to make it worth the risk for travel lines to do buisness. Despite their legal justification to do so, the US navy or air force will never shoot down an Air Canada passanger get carrying tourists to Cuba (Unless it's hijacked by terrorists, but that's another story).

Suffice it to say, you have problems on both sides making it worse. You have Cubans divided on the issue, capitalists and communists. Both groups love Cuba, and both groups want it to be one or the other, it's a complicated issue. But the fact of the matter is, the US, for very blatant imperialistic matters, simply does not like the way Cuba went. That issue boils down to the Cubans kicking US buisness out of their country, buisness that owned all the land, that worked their workers as bad as or worse then south east asian sweatshops do now, like slaves, and who killed Cuban citizens at will with no punishment to themselves. The simple fact of that matter is that US imperiailisim was kicked out of Cuba, and the americans are pissed about it, wether or not they still follow those policies, and wether or not they believed their posession of Cuba was just or unjust, the fact is they're still pissed about it. And they take that anger out by placing an embargo (that is condemned by the UN too by the way) on Cuba.

The Cuban economy based on the US dollar? Unlikely, even with research I have seen nothing to suggest anything but the Cuban Peso has any worth there, and exports done with other countries rarely involving the USD. If it is though, it comes from illegal US travel to Cuba, it comes from Cubans in the US sending money back in, and it comes from the black market.

La Habana Cuba, for the hell of it I'll propose this. It's in no way an attack, just an age venture based on the reality of Cuba. Assuming you are actually Cuban and lived there under Castro as you say.
You're either old enough to remember the revolution, and thus was one of the people who benifieted by cooperating with imperialistic american ambitions of the time at the expense of your countrymen, or the child of parents in such a situation.
Or you're a very recent immigrant since the 1992 tightenings of the US embargo and 1996 attempts by the US to pressure foreign nations to cut relations with Cuba. Which would mean you likely left due to economic reasons. The issue then comes in of, do you realise pressure from earlier Cuban immigrants, from the first group I said you may belong to, is the reason that the US tightened an embargo on Cuba and pressured its allies to stop trading with Cuba, that subsequently dropped the quality of life in Cuba drastically?

Either possibility of who you are is a nice side to the story. And, having talked to a multitude of Cubans, heard a multitude of oppnions, I still think it would be interesting to hear yet another one.

The fact of the matter, however, comes down still to the simple fact that the US is directly responsable for ruining Cuba. Now wether or not this reasoning will change, and the US government will shift from wanting to punish Cuba for trying to be itself, to actually trying to help is anybodys guess, but I woud like to see it happen. And if Castro dies, then maybe they would get the chance to do that, to actually help, instead of just go in and impose their interests like they have a history of doing.

US politics are funny in that there's always people of good will and intention going to do something, and there's always some moron who only wants his way getting into the problem and messing it up. The truely interesting times are when the idiots don't suceed.

I would rather live hungry and free than in chains with a fat belly. :cool:
It is easy to be idealistic if you've never had to choose between them. I suppose you would "never give up any liberty for security" either?

New Callixtina, you seem a little, off, in your apparent facts.
First and foremost because your location thing suggests you're an American, and as such it's illegal for you to travel to Cuba. So, barring super-special permission from the government, I doubt you made any trips to Cuba, or if you did you risk serious punishment from your government by saying you have, and you would know that.
.

Wrong on facts and rather presumptuous. I am an American and it is possible for AMERICANS to travel via a third country to Cuba, mostly through Canada, Mexico and Panama. Cubans who are RESIDENTS of the US can travel freely to Cuba. My father was Cuban and I travel to Cuba at least every 2 years to visit family with no problems. So the travel embargo on Cuba is pure bullshit.

And of all the Cubans I have talked to (Way too many I think, both who fled and who stayed) the general consensus comes down to this, all the Cubans who flee flee because they have family who fled when their "aristocratic" life was crushed in the revolution, or because they want to make it big in life and the communist system does not allow that. And apparently, because of the high quality education, healthcare, and that fact that everyone has a house and food, alot of Cubans stay, and some who flee to the US even go back..

Wrong again. Although that may be true of some Cubans, it is not true of all of them. My father came to this country in 1962 and he was in no way an "aristocrat" as you say. He was a simple, hard working man who saw Castro not as a savior but just another, worse version of Batista. Because of this he had to flee with a bullseye on his back. This is still true of a lot of Cubans today. Again, ACTUALLY GET ON A PLANE AND VISIT CUBA, see the actual living conditions of the Cuban people and then you can say one way or the other.


These images of Cubans taking a leaky raft to Florida to become americans, the fault of US policy. I know Cubans who legally imigrated to Canada, without ever having to set foot in Florida or a leaky boat. And I know Cubans who did the leaky boat thing to the US, and I even know some who did the leaky boat thing to the US, and then went back to Cuba.
But what happens when the rest of the world trades with Cuba? US navy and coast guard ships get in the way. Same when they travel. The fact that travel is still not restricted by military force is a simple testement to the US unwillingness to shoot down the aircraft of its closest allies for a trade embargo, and the Cuban's abilities to make it worth the risk for travel lines to do buisness. Despite their legal justification to do so, the US navy or air force will never shoot down an Air Canada passanger get carrying tourists to Cuba (Unless it's hijacked by terrorists, but that's another story)..

While most of this is true, travel to Cuba is much more free than you would think, if you are NOT Cuban. Canadians, South Americans, Spanish and other European tourists travel to Cuba all the time without any restrictions.

The simple fact of that matter is that US imperiailisim was kicked out of Cuba, and the americans are pissed about it, wether or not they still follow those policies, and wether or not they believed their posession of Cuba was just or unjust, the fact is they're still pissed about it. And they take that anger out by placing an embargo (that is condemned by the UN too by the way) on Cuba.

Here, you are right on point, could not agree with you more. But, the situation today is much more complicated than that.

The Cuban economy based on the US dollar? Unlikely, even with research I have seen nothing to suggest anything but the Cuban Peso has any worth there, and exports done with other countries rarely involving the USD. If it is though, it comes from illegal US travel to Cuba, it comes from Cubans in the US sending money back in, and it comes from the black market.)..

Again you are wrong here because you have obviously never traveled to Cuba. There are actually 3 Cuban currencies all used for different purposes. One for food, the other for services, etc. But only with US DOLLARS can you actually buy necessary things like medicine, clothes, and have an occasinal beer. Cuban citizens are NOT ALLOWED on the foreign run resorts unless they work there, and they are paid 1/3 of the salary foreing workers make. Again, until you have traveled to Cuba and seen the actual conditions Cubans live under, there is really no way for you to say one way or another. It is much easier to formulate an opinion when you hear things second hand under layers of bias than it is to actually venture out and seek the truth yourself.

The fact of the matter, however, comes down still to the simple fact that the US is directly responsable for ruining Cuba. Now wether or not this reasoning will change, and the US government will shift from wanting to punish Cuba for trying to be itself, to actually trying to help is anybodys guess, but I woud like to see it happen. And if Castro dies, then maybe they would get the chance to do that, to actually help, instead of just go in and impose their interests like they have a history of doing..

Again, not a one way street. Castro is responsible for starving his people of information, freedom of movement, freedom of speech and expression, and freedom of religion. and as for the "world class hospitals" and "5 star education system" of Cuba, this is a mere fantasy. Again, TRAVEL to Cuba and see for yourself.

US politics are funny in that there's always people of good will and intention going to do something, and there's always some moron who only wants his way getting into the problem and messing it up. The truely interesting times are when the idiots don't suceed.

Its very easy to go down Anti-American Road and blame the great Satan for all the worlds ills. Of course there is no denying that we are guilty of a lot of shit, but this time, there is plenty of blame to go around.

It is easy to be idealistic if you've never had to choose between them.

Yes I have and so has my family. There is a diffrerence between idealism and REALISM.

I suppose you would "never give up any liberty for security" either?

No I would not.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin

God that quote irritates the shit out of me.

I mean, it's a great line - but damn. Really, really overused.

I would rather live hungry and free than in chains with a fat belly.

Statist-capitalist oligarchical "democracy" gives you the worst of both worlds - both the chains and the hunger.

In developed countries the hunger is eliminated (for most, anyway), but you get to keep the chains.

To assume that just because people "have enough to eat" in Cuba means they are better off remaining under the status quo is ludicrous at best.

If the alternative is living like the average Russian, it probably is better.


Fact 1: The entire Cuban economy runs on the AMERICAN DOLLAR RIGHT NOW. That means that the Cuban Peso is nearly worthless because only with US dollars can Cuans buy the REAL goods they need, not just the government welfare subsistence they get with their pesos. So the US already has the foot in the door economically. Don't believe me, do your reasarch, better yet, talk to CUBANS who lived under the regime or travel there yourself as I have.


Smunkee went there if I recall correctly. And according to her, the "cuban welfare subsistence" is a few cuts higher than most other countries. So we now have two people with conflicting claims.

As for foot in door, it's tightly controlled.


Fact 2: The US embargo is not to blame for the problems in Cuba. There is an entire WORLD out there that the island can choose to do business with: China, pretty much all of South America, Eastern Europe, etc, without interference from DC. But Castro has chosen to LIE to the people and drum the Anti-American rhetoric into their heads while controlling all information, keeping Cubans ignorant to the world around them. Yeah, a great leader Castro is.

I don't remember saying anything about the embargo or anti-American rhetoric, but the fact remains that if Castro were to be gone and it's markets open to the world ala Russia, it is without doubt that American corporate interests will practically strip all the resources Cuba has in a manner that will leave nothing for its people.

In case you hadn't noticed, the responsibility of a country's leader isn't towards the market first, but it's people.

No matter how hard, it is always a positive thing when oppresive dictators die.




And again, don't take my word for it, do your own research, travel and talk to REAL Cubans who have lived and/or are living under the regime.


True, I may not have been there, but again, as I mentioned earlier, there are two conflicting claims from two different people. One from you, and one from Smunkee.


Again, apples to oranges. Political freedom means nothing if you are not willing to struggle and fight for it. I would rather live hungry and free than in chains with a fat belly. :cool:

Political freedom means nothing if you aren't willing to fight for it, yes. But to what point if that political freedom means that your politics are the politics of the rich and influential? Meaning, if you aren't rich or influential, you can't do much politically. And of course, that means the rich and influential get to screw you over.

How's that any better?

As for free and hungry, I am willing to bet you have never undergone starvation conditions. Not lean times, not a day or two without food, but real starvation conditions. When you start eating your shoes and grass just to get to the next day and when you have to burn your furniture just to keep from freezing to death. Those conditions.

You're a liar. Sinuhue visited Cuba and spoke with many people who were critical of the government.



Not to knock Sinuhue, but Potemkin Village (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potemkin_village).

Lol, sorry New Callixtina but I poped in here to throw out some facts and different information I got from actual Cubans, I don't care to debate. I learned long long ago NSG debate is worthless. In fact I'm only posting this was because I'm bored and it wa son the first page when I came by.

But, for the sake if it, you assume I've never been to Cuba. Forget the multitudes of Cubans I have mentioned I have talked to, with differeing oppnions, then ignored where I mentioned that current problems in Cuba and its relation to the US are the problems of both nation's governments. But alas it's your choice to pick and choose what you want to hear.

But to that, I will simply say your own statements seem to conflict with reality. Medical supplies are given out freely in accordance with socialisim (Although limited due to limited ammounts). And americans can not travel legally to Cuba. While in fact many travel through Canada to get there, it's also a fact that the US government puts agents in Canadian airports to catch these people, in direct violation of Canadian soviergnty, and a major contention issue between the two countries.

So, I'm getting quite into doubt about wether or not you have actually been to Cuba yourself.

If the alternative is living like the average Russian, it probably is better..

Since Ive never been to Russia, its hard for me to compare one system to the other, but I'm sure that as hard as things are in Russia right now economically, they have more freedoms than Cubans have had in decades. So again, not a fair comparison.

Smunkee went there if I recall correctly. And according to her, the "cuban welfare subsistence" is a few cuts higher than most other countries. So we now have two people with conflicting claims.

As for foot in door, it's tightly controlled..

Ive been to Cuba many times and still have family there so I can speak from personal experience, Ive seen it with my own eyes. So they get an extra cup of rice and sugar compared to other systems, does that mean its still a good thing????

As for foot in door, yes tightly controlled, but not by Castro I guarantee it.


I don't remember saying anything about the embargo or anti-American rhetoric, but the fact remains that if Castro were to be gone and it's markets open to the world ala Russia, it is without doubt that American corporate interests will practically strip all the resources Cuba has in a manner that will leave nothing for its people..

One could look at the US and Europe and see a massive swarm of locusts consuming the landscape. Others might see opportunities unheard of in nearly half a century, better education, better jobs, open lines of communication, and increased personal freedoms. Are these things to turn your nose up at? You have to take the good with the bad if it means improving your life, thats capitalism. If Cubans want it they better be prepared for all that comes with it.


In case you hadn't noticed, the responsibility of a country's leader isn't towards the market first, but it's people..

Agreed, but when you keep your people practical prisoners in your homeland, you are not serving their interest either. Especially when said leader is not democratically elected.


Political freedom means nothing if you aren't willing to fight for it, yes. But to what point if that political freedom means that your politics are the politics of the rich and influential? Meaning, if you aren't rich or influential, you can't do much politically. And of course, that means the rich and influential get to screw you over.

How's that any better?.

So you would only fight for your interests if they went against the interests of the rich and influential? So its all about going against the grain and serving your OWN interests for you? Even if it means shooting yourself in the foot??? Spoken like a true capitalist. Your argument does not hold water, my friend.

As for free and hungry, I am willing to bet you have never undergone starvation conditions. Not lean times, not a day or two without food, but real starvation conditions. When you start eating your shoes and grass just to get to the next day and when you have to burn your furniture just to keep from freezing to death. Those conditions.

No, I am fortunate and greatful that I have not felt such conditions, but my family has due to Castros regime. But that is neither here nor there in this case. Have you experienced such conditions yourself???? In all my travels I have met people in free states who are happy to struggle as long as they have the freedoms they need.
My point was not just about physical hunger, but spiritual, intellectual, political and moral. Keeping the masses fed and stupid makes them easier to control. I doubt thats the sort of system you would want to live in.

The bottom line is, whatever road Cuba chooses after Castro, it will be better than the road they are on now, to nowhere.

Just felt I'd chime in. I lived in Cuba for three months living with families and teaching at the Universidad de Cienfuegos, as part of a learning and program exchange with the Community College here in New Brunswick, Canada. A common Cuban sentiment which I encountered was that they are not concerned about issues of freedom in the sense that many "free" countries are, and certainly not as restricted as others might claim. For example, I saw something up there about being "trapped on their prison island". You may want to tell that to the numerous professors, students and guests who have flown up here to enjoy barbecues and hockey games over the last decade. Or maybe wait a year for when my whole family's going down there to celebrate a friend's daughter's fifteenth birthday, and I can give you an update.

The bottom line is that it's not a hellhole. These people aren't afraid of anything but the possibility that after Castro dies, some other nations or interest groups will try to screw up what they've built in the last fifty years.

So, I'm getting quite into doubt about wether or not you have actually been to Cuba yourself.

If you read through my posts, I never said where I traveled from to Cuba. I have only been to Cuba twice through Canada. All other times we have traveled there since 1995 has been through Panama. As to the rest of your response, it just sems to me that people are willing to agree with anyone who is against the US just for the sake of contradiction. Not a valid argument at all. The facts are still there, that Cuba is a dirt poor dictatorship (not socialist) of opressed people whether some know it or not. Castro is going to die soon if he hasnt already. So get ready for change, period.

Just felt I'd chime in. I lived in Cuba for three months living with families and teaching at the Universidad de Cienfuegos, as part of a learning and program exchange with the Community College here in New Brunswick, Canada. A common Cuban sentiment which I encountered was that they are not concerned about issues of freedom in the sense that many "free" countries are, and certainly not as restricted as others might claim. For example, I saw something up there about being "trapped on their prison island". You may want to tell that to the numerous professors, students and guests who have flown up here to enjoy barbecues and hockey games over the last decade. Or maybe wait a year for when my whole family's going down there to celebrate a friend's daughter's fifteenth birthday, and I can give you an update.

The bottom line is that it's not a hellhole. These people aren't afraid of anything but the possibility that after Castro dies, some other nations or interest groups will try to screw up what they've built in the last fifty years.

I wouldn't say it's all peaches and cream, but I'd have to agree with you. I don't speak spanish so my visits as a kid were never really great learning experiences but I can add just a little to this. I have docked at several cuban ports over the years (my uncle runs a fishing boat out of key largo) and it always seemed a great deal more pleasant than many 3rd world countries I have been in (and I have been in a bunch)
I don't really know much about cuba or its politics or their living standards, but the average joes seemed pretty okay with their lots in life. When Fidel dies I expect they'll be pretty sad about it, and honestly mourn one of the most influential man in most of their lives. But will it improve their lives by suddenly alowing America to throw cash around? I doubt it. At least not for a while.

Since Ive never been to Russia, its hard for me to compare one system to the other, but I'm sure that as hard as things are in Russia right now economically, they have more freedoms than Cubans have had in decades. So again, not a fair comparison.

Apples to oranges you might say, but again, I point out the grim reality of things. Political ideals are meaningless without the basic necessities to make use of them.


Ive been to Cuba many times and still have family there so I can speak from personal experience, Ive seen it with my own eyes. So they get an extra cup of rice and sugar compared to other systems, does that mean its still a good thing????

I can only put as much weight on your words as I can on Smunkee's, which makes it an even footing. However, according to Smunkee, it's not merely an extra cup of rice and sugar.

Yes, I will agree that luxuries such as air conditioning, computers and such are difficult for the average Cuban to come by, but they are, by some accounts, well provided for.


One could look at the US and Europe and see a massive swarm of locusts consuming the landscape. Others might see opportunities unheard of in nearly half a century, better education, better jobs, open lines of communication, and increased personal freedoms. Are these things to turn your nose up at?

As people often like to point out to the Soviet Union as the pinnacle of failed communism, I too would like to use it to point out just exactly what would happen if the Cuban government underwent the same level of "democratization"

In Russia, there are the elites yes, but they are few in number and everyone else gets shanked big time.


You have to take the good with the bad if it means improving your life, thats capitalism. If Cubans want it they better be prepared for all that comes with it.

Controlled capitalism works. Not that "every man for himself" pillaging that occurred after the Cold War. Castro's government may not be the best in the world, but it sure as heck beats what would happen if his government collapsed like you seem to hope for.


Agreed, but when you keep your people practical prisoners in your homeland, you are not serving their interest either. Especially when said leader is not democratically elected.

As was mentioned by others, the US is an equal participant in this "keep the Cubans in" imprisonment. As for not being democratically elected, there are such things as benevolent dictators.


So you would only fight for your interests if they went against the interests of the rich and influential? So its all about going against the grain and serving your OWN interests for you? Even if it means shooting yourself in the foot??? Spoken like a true capitalist. Your argument does not hold water, my friend.


Huh? How did you infer that? Look, what I'm saying is that if you fight for political freedoms but if all those political freedoms is provide you with a choice of who ass rapes you, and not a choice where it says "none of the above", you're better off without said freedoms when you weren't ass raped that much.


No, I am fortunate and greatful that I have not felt such conditions, but my family has due to Castros regime.

Starvation in Cuba? You would have to do better than that. Starvation in Cuba would have been trumpeted by the US as an example of Castro's failed administration.

Provide verifiable proof please.


But that is neither here nor there in this case. Have you experienced such conditions yourself????

That argument does not apply to me simply because I am pragmatic. Ideals will not keep you alive, simple as that. If I had to choose between certain death and indentured labour, I would pick the latter? Why? Because so long as I am alive, I am capable of affecting change, no matter how small.


In all my travels I have met people in free states who are happy to struggle as long as they have the freedoms they need.

Uh huh. And where they ever faced with the decisions with clear cut consequences that spelt quite clearly that they would die or suffer greatly if they struggled on?


My point was not just about physical hunger, but spiritual, intellectual, political and moral.

All that other hunger kind of falls apart if you can't fulfill the first.



Keeping the masses fed and stupid makes them easier to control. I doubt thats the sort of system you would want to live in.

Newsflash. Keeping the populace fed and stupid has been the way of governance throughout human history. Monarchy, democracy, republic, dictatorships, communism and any other form of governance has always relied on a content and stupid population in order to keep control.

If the people were smart, they'd want to have a hand in governance, and then there'd be a big mess. Democracy was one way of getting around the problems of more literate people by giving them the illusion that if they voted, they had some control.


The bottom line is, whatever road Cuba chooses after Castro, it will be better than the road they are on now, to nowhere.

If you had a choice of nowhere or off a cliff, which would you pick?

Castro will die eventually, he's not immortal. But your prediction of sunshine and roses seems naive and idealistic to me.

If you read through my posts, I never said where I traveled from to Cuba. I have only been to Cuba twice through Canada. All other times we have traveled there since 1995 has been through Panama. As to the rest of your response, it just sems to me that people are willing to agree with anyone who is against the US just for the sake of contradiction. Not a valid argument at all. The facts are still there, that Cuba is a dirt poor dictatorship (not socialist) of opressed people whether some know it or not. Castro is going to die soon if he hasnt already. So get ready for change, period.

I know, I'm bored again. Hopefully I'll find something to do this week, I hate the holiday season for this.

But anyway. You're mixing facts again. Cuba is socialist, because socialist is an economic policy. It's also a dictatorship to many degrees, because a dictatorship is a political system. While the two are often intertwined in use, they are in fact seperate ideologies. So a nation can be both, one or the other, or in fact neither.

Anyway, you don't have to say where you travel from for it to matter. You're living in america, likely a US citizen, and thus you can not legally travel to Cuba. Enforcement of these laws varies from time to time, every now and then some US officials get together with the anti Castro crowd and it's a sudden surge of enforcement, then it dies away for a little while, then comes back, in a cycle. But you should be careful who you spout your trips to Cuba about, because if you are in fact an american citizen or landed immigrant, you could face some serious legal reprocussions when they start pulling the enforcement thing again.

As for the automatic anti-American stuff, well that's true. Happens way too often if you ask me. But alot of the reasoning behind that is not without a logical base. Neither is the reasoning behind how people on the other side do the same thing about Castro, or about any other issue ever possibly thought up. It's just the way things are. Anyone with an oppnion about something will do this stuff, you, me, everyone here. Its those who can realise they're doing it and work with it, or work around it, that actually make sense.

Now, Castro will die, that's a fact. He's human, thus mortal. Everyone knows this, even him. The problem is what happens after he dies? A return to the slavery-like economy of pre-revolution Cuba? Quite likely when you look at the recent examples of US involvement in the world of post-socialist nations. It's quite possible something will happen and magically Cuba will grow and prosper out of help from the US, quite possible, but unlikely. The US will crash in, see a free market open up, see cheap labour, and more Cubans will die, the standard of living will drop, and the Cubans who don't benifiet from their new corporate masters will hate it.
Capitalisim is a wonderful thing because you can always expect the guys in charge to learn from their mistakes, and to be predictable. Corporations out of the US learned decades ago not to "help" poorer nations at the expense of profits, because they will lose tons of money with no return. And in the end, money is what matters to them.

I hope he lives just a little bit longer... I've always wanted to see Castro's Cuba (as a communist, I would like to see how much they practice the faith, and how much the American media has exaggerated Castro's authoritarianism), and I won't have the opportunity to go for at least five years. I think Raoul will usher in a more democratic communist system, and that would be great, but no one can replace Comrade Fidel.

Are you asking God to strike down a fellow man on Christmas Eve?

That means New Mitanni must really be...

http://www.iflipflop.com/uploaded_images/Robertson,%20Pat-723880.jpg

PAT ROBERTSON!!!!!!!

Castro will die eventually, he's not immortal. But your prediction of sunshine and roses seems naive and idealistic to me.

:headbang: :rolleyes:
You seriously have waaaay too much time on your hands and obviously know nothing of what you speak other than what you may have read someplace, instead of actually seeing things for what they are yourself. The world is not black and white as you obviously see it. You can argue till the cows come home for Castros Cuba, but the world already knows any alternative is better than what they have now. Dictatorships do not work. Socialism does not work. Communism does not work. Capitalism is flawed, but works. History has proven this time and time again. No one made any "sunshine and roses" predictions for the island. Things will get a hell of a lot worse before they get better.

Socialism does not work.

*looks at Canada and Sweden*

Say what?

Yes I have and so has my family. There is a diffrerence between idealism and REALISM.

So you chose hunger and survived?

Not to knock Sinuhue, but Potemkin Village (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potemkin_village).
Ideologically motivated and probably groundless bullshit on your part.

*looks at Canada and Sweden*

Say what?
They aren't socialist, not in the same way as Cuba. Sweden and Canada actually have market economies. Otherwise they would also be embargoed by America.

They aren't socialist, not in the same way as Cuba. Sweden and Canada actually have market economies. Otherwise they would also be embargoed by America.
Nothing about socialism precludes a market economy.