NationStates Jolt Archive

Rep. Virgil Goode (R-VA) (http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/002189.php), concerned over the terrorist threat represented by Keith Ellison (D-MN), warned in a letter about the danger of allowing Muslims to immigrate.

"[I]f American citizens don’t wake up and adopt the Virgil Goode position on immigration there will likely be many more Muslims elected to office and demanding the use of the Koran. I fear that in the next century we will have many more Muslims in the United States if we do not adopt the strict immigration policies that I believe are necessary to preserve the values and beliefs traditional to the United States of America and to prevent our resources from being swamped."

So, there you have it folks: we have to adopt strict immigration policies, or else Muslims will come here! What do they think, we have freedom of religion or something? Hogwash! Freedom of religion is un-American!

The sad bit of this is there will be probably about 10% of you who agree with this xenophobic, bigoted bullshit because you've been programmed by the media to live in stark raving fear of anything Islamic. Sad, sad. But I'm more afraid of losing the ideals of liberty this nation is supposed to represent. The ideals of liberty that people like Virgil Goode wipe their ass with every morning.

They'll impose Sharia law on us! They'd only need about 500million more people to immigrate and the glorious USA would be done for!

I think he forgot and left of the Heil Hitler!

Judging from the people who run the 7/11 near my job and the newsstand at the Trenton train station, I'd say that Muslims have already immigrated here. Don't tell Virgil. He might want them to leave.

BTW, I voted hateful and distrustful, but it's mainly distrustful, not hateful. With all the idiocy done in the name of Islam it's only human nature to be a little wary. I wouldn't want their rights violated though, unless they're proven to be terrorists.

From what i've heard, we have it worst in Britain. They condemn us, burn our flags, have rallies calling on all non-muslims to die and call us (Britain) 'little devil' yes, you Americans get 'Big devil'.

From what i've heard, we have it worst in Britain. They condemn us, burn our flags, have rallies calling on all non-muslims to die and call us (Britain) 'little devil' yes, you Americans get 'Big devil'.


All of them aren't like that. You've got to keep an eye on them, because some are, but you shouldn't think that all of them are scumbags.

have rallies calling on all non-muslims to die

Source? :confused:

From what i've heard, we have it worst in Britain. They condemn us, burn our flags, have rallies calling on all non-muslims to die and call us (Britain) 'little devil' yes, you Americans get 'Big devil'.

Oh yes, and blowing up our people as well how can i forget that,

All of them aren't like that. You've got to keep an eye on them, because some are, but you shouldn't think that all of them are scumbags.

Same goes for any group of people. Crazy Muslims just get in the news more these days.

If Muslims were to immigrate, would they be ideologically in favor of the bedrock political and cultural values of American society -- democracy, individual rights, individualism, etc?

I think the concern is that large numbers of Muslim immigrants may not be properly inculturated, and may vote to remove American ideals.

If Muslims were to immigrate, would they be ideologically in favor of the bedrock political and cultural values of American society -- democracy, individual rights, individualism, etc?

I think the concern is that large numbers of Muslim immigrants may not be properly inculturated, and may vote to remove American ideals.

That's what's nice about the USA. Our constitution prevents any legislation that violates the freedoms guaranteed in it from being enforced. The Supreme Court will shoot it down.

If Muslims were to immigrate, would they be ideologically in favor of the bedrock political and cultural values of American society -- democracy, individual rights, individualism, etc?

I think the concern is that large numbers of Muslim immigrants may not be properly inculturated, and may vote to remove American ideals.

Because they're so being so wonderfully upheld currently? "American" ideals are what the majority of Americans idealise. Therefore if muslims immigrate and become "american" then their ideals are "American ideals".

Rep. Virgil Goode (R-VA) (http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/002189.php), concerned over the terrorist threat represented by Keith Ellison (D-MN), warned in a letter about the danger of allowing Muslims to immigrate.



So, there you have it folks: we have to adopt strict immigration policies, or else Muslims will come here! What do they think, we have freedom of religion or something? Hogwash! Freedom of religion is un-American!

The sad bit of this is there will be probably about 10% of you who agree with this xenophobic, bigoted bullshit because you've been programmed by the media to live in stark raving fear of anything Islamic. Sad, sad. But I'm more afraid of losing the ideals of liberty this nation is supposed to represent. The ideals of liberty that people like Virgil Goode wipe their ass with every morning.

This guy is a nut.

Same goes for any group of people. Crazy Muslims just get in the news more these days.
True, bieng Irish in England in the '70s and '80s ment you were a 'terrorist'.

True, bieng Irish in England in the '70s and '80s ment you were a 'terrorist'.

Aye my parents were in England then and they put up with alot of crap. Whining muslims today have NO idea how much harder the irish had it then.

Rep. Virgil Goode (R-VA) (http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/002189.php), concerned over the terrorist threat represented by Keith Ellison (D-MN), warned in a letter about the danger of allowing Muslims to immigrate.



So, there you have it folks: we have to adopt strict immigration policies, or else Muslims will come here! What do they think, we have freedom of religion or something? Hogwash! Freedom of religion is un-American!

The sad bit of this is there will be probably about 10% of you who agree with this xenophobic, bigoted bullshit because you've been programmed by the media to live in stark raving fear of anything Islamic. Sad, sad. But I'm more afraid of losing the ideals of liberty this nation is supposed to represent. The ideals of liberty that people like Virgil Goode wipe their ass with every morning.

I'm not afraid of Islam, just the welfare bill we are all going to have to foot....

From what i've heard, we have it worst in Britain. They condemn us, burn our flags, have rallies calling on all non-muslims to die and call us (Britain) 'little devil' yes, you Americans get 'Big devil'.

Well we've got Texas, and a bigger ego so it's only natural..

From what i've heard, we have it worst in Britain.

from what I've seen no we do not

They condemn us, burn our flags, have rallies calling on all non-muslims to die and call us (Britain) 'little devil' yes, you Americans get 'Big devil'.

lol reminds me of the rumours about Gypsies did you know they steal fresh breath at night to power there puppy killing incest orgies!

I think the concern is that large numbers of Muslim immigrants may not be properly inculturated, and may vote to remove American ideals.

so you want a group of people to have to vote a certain way...in order to preserve freedoms...hmmmmm

from what I've seen no we do not



lol reminds me of the rumours about Gypsies did you know they steal fresh breath at night to power there puppy killing incest orgies!


No dude its true. That Muslim cleric was arrested for preaching hatred on the streets of london. Those guys who bombed the busses were part a mosque where the Inam preached death of the westerners etc. Its not so common as he made it sound but it happens.

from what I've seen no we do not



lol reminds me of the rumours about Gypsies did you know they steal fresh breath at night to power there puppy killing incest orgies!



so you want a group of people to have to vote a certain way...in order to preserve freedoms...hmmmmm

Nice points, misspelled "their" though. Anyway, they aren't, and will probably never be a majority here, but what this person is trying to say is that a majority of votes from them will make this country like one in the Middle-East, now, a liberal ESPECIALLY doesn't want that...

That's what's nice about the USA. Our constitution prevents any legislation that violates the freedoms guaranteed in it from being enforced. The Supreme Court will shoot it down.

The Supreme Court has done SUCH a good job of that over its history. :headbang:

Rep. Virgil Goode (R-VA) (http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/002189.php), concerned over the terrorist threat represented by Keith Ellison (D-MN), warned in a letter about the danger of allowing Muslims to immigrate.



So, there you have it folks: we have to adopt strict immigration policies, or else Muslims will come here! What do they think, we have freedom of religion or something? Hogwash! Freedom of religion is un-American!

The sad bit of this is there will be probably about 10% of you who agree with this xenophobic, bigoted bullshit because you've been programmed by the media to live in stark raving fear of anything Islamic. Sad, sad. But I'm more afraid of losing the ideals of liberty this nation is supposed to represent. The ideals of liberty that people like Virgil Goode wipe their ass with every morning.
MUSLIMS?! My worst fears are true...America the Great Nation on Earth, the chosen home of the people of Thy Lord Jesus Christ, will be destroyed...

Because they're so being so wonderfully upheld currently? "American" ideals are what the majority of Americans idealise. Therefore if muslims immigrate and become "american" then their ideals are "American ideals".

So if the US were to turn over time into an Islamic theocracy, that's okay? No one should mind the loss of freedom at all?

The Supreme Court has done SUCH a good job of that over its history. :headbang:

It's done ok. I can still say what I want, including "Mohammed sucks camels off for spare change" without being prosecuted.

All of them aren't like that. You've got to keep an eye on them, because some are, but you shouldn't think that all of them are scumbags.

You would think, or I do anyway, that the non-scumbag Muslims should be furious with the Muslims that have made the words 'terrorist' and 'Muslim' into synonyms.

You would think, or I do anyway, that the non-scumbag Muslims should be furious with the Muslims that have made the words 'terrorist' and 'Muslim' into synonyms.

Perish forbid! That would be the most unconscionable trampling of their rights imaginable! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You would think, or I do anyway, that the non-scumbag Muslims should be furious with the Muslims that have made the words 'terrorist' and 'Muslim' into synonyms.

Actually, it's people - perhaps such as yourself - who made those synonyms.

You would think, or I do anyway, that the non-scumbag Muslims should be furious with the Muslims that have made the words 'terrorist' and 'Muslim' into synonyms.

It's easier to just act the victim and take up your place as an "oppressed brown person" crying out against American bigotry, or to just ignore the problem and be a normal guy who happens to be Muslim than it is to stand up to folks who might blow you up.

Perish forbid! That would be the most unconscionable trampling of their rights imaginable! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I know, it's most inappropriate, but I couldn't help myself.

So if the US were to turn over time into an Islamic theocracy, that's okay? No one should mind the loss of freedom at all?

If most Americans idealise that sort of government, than that sort of government is the American ideal. I was pointing out that American ideals are what most Americans think they are, not what a particular person declares them as.

As for your question, it's the inherent contradiction of democracy, if the majority of people will democratically vote against democracy, then wouldn't it be undemocratic to remain a democracy.

I appear to be the only one here who remembers that many of the 9/11 hijackers entered the United States with legal immigrant visas.

Personaly I know many muslims and about 99% of them are great people.
Actually nicest, most kind couple I know are muslims.
but that 1% scares the hell out of me.
The people who kill their own daughters because they don't want to marry some guy from Libya they never met and want to go to college. People who walk around and call us all infidels. People who attack young women at street and call them whores because they are wearing short skirts.
yeah that kind of people I don't want in my country. And I belive they should be deported as soon as they are found.

Actually, it's people - perhaps such as yourself - who made those synonyms.

Really? And it has nothing to do with the fact that suicide bombers and those who send planes into buildings rant continuously about their religious mission with zeal?

I appear to be the only one here who remembers that many of the 9/11 hijackers entered the United States with legal immigrant visas.

That's not quite correct. I believe that some of the visas were doctored, and didn't they all overstay the visa?

You would think, or I do anyway, that the non-scumbag Muslims should be furious with the Muslims that have made the words 'terrorist' and 'Muslim' into synonyms.

I am certain that some are. I am certain others are apathetic. Others may take a spiteful glee in it.

I would think that the non-scumbag muslims are a vast and heterogenous mix of people from various cultures and backgrounds with an equally vast and complex spectrum of reactions to the muslim terrorists.

The same could be said for their reactions to non-muslims who have made the words 'terrorist' and 'Muslim' into synonyms.

That may be so, but the fact that they still entered the country legally is relevant here, as I believe their prior terrorist ties are a well-known fact now.

And if they overstayed their visas, the fact that they were able to continue living here unmolested suggeststhat we need stricter enforcement of our immigration laws, which Rep. Goode seems to be suggesting.

Really? And it has nothing to do with the fact that suicide bombers and those who send planes into buildings rant continuously about their religious mission with zeal?

Well, no one seems to be thinking "Christian" is synonymous with "abortion clinic bomber," or "Catholic" synonymous with "IRA terrorist." But maybe it's easier to refrain from generalizations when we're talking about white people.

From what i've heard, we have it worst in Britain. They condemn us, burn our flags, have rallies calling on all non-muslims to die and call us (Britain) 'little devil' yes, you Americans get 'Big devil'.

Meh, this is why, living up the road from a big mosque and a massively muslim neighbourhood I am in a permenant state of fear from the regular demonstrations of hate for the West...

Or not. Even got invited to break fast there with a group from the local church.

Nice points, misspelled "their" though. Anyway, they aren't, and will probably never be a majority here, but what this person is trying to say is that a majority of votes from them will make this country like one in the Middle-East, now, a liberal ESPECIALLY doesn't want that...

I find that hard to believe, as the history, dominant religions, geography, languages, influences, technologies, arts and other cultural artifacts and rituals will act as a conservative force, even if the muslim population became a much larger minority in the USA than it is today.

Well, no one seems to be thinking "Christian" is synonymous with "abortion clinic bomber," or "Catholic" synonymous with "IRA terrorist." But maybe it's easier to refrain from generalizations when we're talking about white people.

Are you saying that Muslims are brown people?

Better not tell the Chechens!

Well, no one seems to be thinking "Christian" is synonymous with "abortion clinic bomber," or "Catholic" synonymous with "IRA terrorist." But maybe it's easier to refrain from generalizations when we're talking about white people.

Well said Sir.

I'll agree that we need stricter enforcing of immigration laws, but what we really need to do is reform the entire immigration process.

(And damn; I was hoping someone would take me seriously, so we could all laugh.)

Are you saying that Muslims are brown people?

Better not tell the Chechens!

I'm not saying all Muslims are "brown people," but the ones the US to be bombing by the tens of thousands seem to be.

Gift-of-god, none of those things you cite matter because they are subject to the passing political whims of the time.

History? Rewritten easily enough. Most textbooks today focus less on history and more on individual groups of minorities' contributions to them. Schools are political constructs subject to political pressures; if a certain population grows large enough they will demand concessions.

Dominant religions? Well, this is silly, as the dominant religion will cease to be Christianity if large numbers of Muslims come here. It doesn't help that the religious argument for preserving American culture and society as it is now is usually dismissed, as the OP has repeatedly demonstrated, as "xenophobia."

Languages are also subject to political forces. Note that due to our large Hispanic population it is no longer considered politically correct to advocate English-only language policies. As before, if a group gets large enough, they will demand concessions, and democratic governments will be powerless to resist, especially when coupled with the corrosively modernistic forces of liberalism.

Arts and other cultural achievements are, again, irrelevant, as cultural achievements mean nothing to people who have no intrinsic ties to them -- i.e., foreigners.

I don't think we are in any danger of a "Muslim majority" any time in the next few centuries. But I do think there is reason to fear that Muslims coming here legally will be able to foist upon the American public things they find politically abhorrent. Not to mention there is always the fear that even a tiny fraction of them could be terrorists. Without stricter enforcement of immigration laws (i.e., actually funding ICE so it can conduct background checks), we have no way of knowing for sure.

Well, no one seems to be thinking "Christian" is synonymous with "abortion clinic bomber," or "Catholic" synonymous with "IRA terrorist." But maybe it's easier to refrain from generalizations when we're talking about white people.

Well, last I heard, the IRA was disarmed and there haven't been any serious abortion clinic bombings in years. This hardly compares to the stunted cultural development that is common in Muslim countries.

Abortion clinic bombers and IRA terrorists really were the minority. But the vast majority of the Muslim world lives in the Middle East and tolerates the excessive oppression, sectarian violence, and sociocultural instability that has plagued their civilization for centuries.

Really? And it has nothing to do with the fact that suicide bombers and those who send planes into buildings rant continuously about their religious mission with zeal?

If I remember correctly, you self-identify as a Christian, yes? Would it be reasonable for me to proceed with the default assumption that you agree with Fred Phelps? He certainly rants about his religious mission with zeal. Upon meeting someone who calls himself a Christian, should I demand proof that he does not show up to strangers' funerals and shriek about how the deceased is burning in hell? Should I further assume that you dearly want to murder abortion clinic employees, or that you try to call down natural disasters upon anyone who disagrees with you? Christians in this country have done these things in the name of their God, too.

"Muslim" and "terrorist" are no more synonymous than "Christian" and "terrorist," or "jackass," or "disgusting abusive bigot." You could assume that Muslims are evil until you see proof that they're not, but you logically ought to be doing the same thing for everyone else. Me, I prefer just to assume that anyone I meet is a basically ordinary, reasonable person until I see some evidence otherwise.

If I remember correctly, you self-identify as a Christian, yes? Would it be reasonable for me to proceed with the default assumption that you agree with Fred Phelps? He certainly rants about his religious mission with zeal. Upon meeting someone who calls himself a Christian, should I demand proof that he does not show up to strangers' funerals and shriek about how the deceased is burning in hell? Should I further assume that you dearly want to murder abortion clinic employees, or that you try to call down natural disasters upon anyone who disagrees with you? Christians in this country have done these things in the name of their God, too.

"Muslim" and "terrorist" are no more synonymous than "Christian" and "terrorist," or "jackass," or "disgusting abusive bigot." You could assume that Muslims are evil until you see proof that they're not, but you logically ought to be doing the same thing for everyone else. Me, I prefer just to assume that anyone I meet is a basically ordinary, reasonable person until I see some evidence otherwise.

A lot of people on this forum already make that connection between Fred Phelps and ANY Christian - are you saying that no one does?

You'll note that I'm not saying that ALL Muslims are terrorists - but I can certainly understand why a lot of people get that impression.

Your logic is fallacious. You're assuming that because not all Muslims are evil, there must logically be no evil Muslims. Which is silly.

No one is saying all Muslims are evil, just a disproportionately large number of them, and only insofar as western values are concerned. Since we're talking about defending western values against belligerent foreigners (at least I am; I take it you're a liberal not to keen on defending the culture and way of life that better generations have spilt blood to protect), this seems appropriate.

Well, last I heard, the IRA was disarmed and there haven't been any serious abortion clinic bombings in years. This hardly compares to the stunted cultural development that is common in Muslim countries.

"cultural development?" Is that your polite and PC way of saying they're barbarians?

As for the IRA being disarmed - sure. Now. But no one "synonymized" them with Catholicism even when they weren't. Why not? Isn't that what's supposed to happen when religious terrorists do anything? Or is it just a Muslim thing.

Abortion clinic bombers and IRA terrorists really were the minority.

And Muslim terrorists are too.

But the vast majority of the Muslim world lives in the Middle East and tolerates the excessive oppression, sectarian violence, and sociocultural instability that has plagued their civilization for centuries.

Oh, well if they "tolerate" it, clearly that makes Muslim = terrorist. Good work.

A lot of people on this forum already make that connection between Fred Phelps and ANY Christian - are you saying that no one does?

You'll note that I'm not saying that ALL Muslims are terrorists - but I can certainly understand why a lot of people get that impression.

I'm not denying that some people believe Fred Phelps is a representative Christian. I'm saying that those people are idiots, as are the people who think Osama bin Ladin is a representative Muslim. Most people, regardless of religious affiliation, are just people. A select few people, regardless of religious affiliation, are murderous nutcases. Being Muslim or Christian doesn't make you a murderous nutcase; being a murderous nutcase makes you a murderous nutcase.

"cultural development?" Is that your polite and PC way of saying they're barbarians?

If you compared them on standards of education, economic development, advances in science and mathematics in the last 100 years, development of infrastructure, etc., yes they are barbarians by comparison.

While we may have our bad moments (say, in the area of law, where the US has backslid on habeas corpus), we're not pulling people from their cars and shooting them for not having a beard, or listening to music.

You'll note that I'm not saying that ALL Muslims are terrorists - but I can certainly understand why a lot of people get that impression.

Yeah, 19 Muslims fly planes into Buildings....kill near on 3,000 people

What sort of impression reckon do you reckon people have, following the same logic, considering the 100,000 plus Americans in Iraq and the 300,000 or so dead there..?

While we may have our bad moments (say, in the area of law, where the US has backslid on habeas corpus), we're not pulling people from their cars and shooting them for not having a beard, or listening to music.

But would sponsor a regime that did it in a heartbeat...But in fairness its usually the more major crimes of being in a trade union, or wanting a more equal society that get the US's goat up....

Your logic is fallacious. You're assuming that because not all Muslims are evil, there must logically be no evil Muslims. Which is silly.

No one is saying all Muslims are evil, just a disproportionately large number of them, and only insofar as western values are concerned. Since we're talking about defending western values against belligerent foreigners (at least I am; I take it you're a liberal not to keen on defending the culture and way of life that better generations have spilt blood to protect), this seems appropriate.

Whose logic are you referring to? Whomever it is, I suggest you reread their posts, as I don't believe anyone in this thread has asserted that all Muslims are sweetness and light in human form. There exist evil Muslims, just as there exist evil Christians, evil Jews, evil Hindus, evil Buddhists, evil Taoists, evil Wiccans, etc., etc., etc.

Yeah, 19 Muslims fly planes into Buildings....kill near on 3,000 people

What sort of impression reckon do you reckon people have, following the same logic, considering the 100,000 plus Americans in Iraq and the 300,000 or so dead there..?

Makes you wonder why the locals there have switched from killing US soldiers (which happens occasionally) to killing each other (which is happening wholesale now - orders of magnitude larger than US casualties).

I think they have the impression that US troops are non-religious infidel invaders who upset the precarious balance of power in the area, and now they see it as their chance to finally kill off their true opponents - other Muslims who happen to either believe or not believe in Ali.

Kind of like when Tito died, Yugoslavia went to shit - he was the only thing holding the place together.

Most of the dead in Iraq have been killed by Iraqis - not Americans.

"cultural development?" Is that your polite and PC way of saying they're barbarians?

Why do you assume I'm trying to be polite and PC?

And are they barbarians? Draw your own conclusions. As a civilization they have not made any remarkable advancements in centuries, and the brief golden age they enjoyed was due markedly to the contributions of civilizations they had conquered, not because of any genius on the part of their own scientists or leaders. Their only claim to world power is a vast oil supply they did nothing to generate, and which many Middle Eastern nations do not even have the skilled labor or technological capacity to access on their own.

Culturally, their growth is stunted. Call it barbarianism if you like. I'm not so much interested in labels, I just don't want it infecting the western way of life. I have a stake in this too, y'know.

But no one "synonymized" them with Catholicism even when they weren't. Why not? Isn't that what's supposed to happen when religious terrorists do anything? Or is it just a Muslim thing.

IIRC most Catholics obected to that violence.

Oh, well if they "tolerate" it, clearly that makes Muslim = terrorist. Good work.

That's not what I suggested. What I suggested was that the defective ideological mindset that breeds terrorism is a bigger problem than terrorism itself.

On another note, what's with the big lefty hard-on for shoving words down other people's throats? Every where I go to debate stuff like this, some liberal inevitably comes along and attempts to extract meanings that my words do not suggest are appropriate. Is snark truly the last intellectual refuge you have?

Also, for those making reference to Iraq, you must be terminally naive if you genuinely believe the violence there is a product of western intervention.

You cannot dump three rival cultures into a patch of land roughly twice the size of Montana and expect them to get along. The only thing that kept a reasonable semblance of order was iron-fisted Baathist rule, and even that was questionable given the numerous uprisings in both the north and south that often had to be suppressed by very violent means. At least the U.S. presence is stunting both Saudi and Iranian designs on the area, which realpolitik logic would suggest they would've acted on had Hussein fallen independent of coalition involvement.

And perhaps not ironically, maintaining cultural homogeneity is rather what Virgil Goode seems to be going on about.

On another note, what's with the big lefty hard-on for shoving words down other people's throats? Every where I go to debate stuff like this, some liberal inevitably comes along and attempts to extract meanings that my words do not suggest are appropriate. Is snark truly the last intellectual refuge you have?

Heh. This from the fellow who a few posts up claimed that someone was arguing that "there are no evil Muslims." You're cute.

Afraid of Muslims? No. I have better uses for my time than cowering under my computer desk whilst wanking furiously to images of dead brown people. :rolleyes:

I'm much more likely to end up dead because another skeleton in the Republican's Cold War closet is mismanaged and they use the weapons we gave them to attack us than I am to end up dead because of some random Muslim on the street.

It's all just annoying, self-serving, suburban-white-flight, white noise. All terror, no substance.

Afraid of Muslims? No. I have better uses for my time than cowering under my computer desk whilst wanking furiously to images of dead brown people. :rolleyes:

I'm much more likely to end up dead because another skeleton in the Republican's Cold War closet is mismanaged and they use the weapons we gave them to attack us than I am to end up dead because of some random Muslim on the street.

It's all just annoying, self-serving, suburban-white-flight, white noise. All terror, no substance.

Hey, stop spoiling the fun! We're all supposed to be cowering under our tables, clutching an American flag and calling the police everytime a non-white person walks past because they might blow us up.

Stop bringing intelligence into this...it has no place here...

Also, for those making reference to Iraq, you must be terminally naive if you genuinely believe the violence there is a product of western intervention.

Actually, you can blame that on the British, post-WW I.

Actually, you can blame that on the British, post-WW I.

A-Yup. Back in the days of well-done imperialism. When we created an Empire, by god we knew how to keep it; make them fight themselves. Shame about WWII...

Heh. This from the fellow who a few posts up claimed that someone was arguing that "there are no evil Muslims." You're cute.

Sorry, it's rather easy to misinterpret poorly-worded statements by people who aren't making any points.

I should've said his logic (on the rare occasion he used logic, instead of just resorting to the kind of snark that serves as the last refuge of intellectually bankrupt liberals here) was fallacious because he thinks the perceived evil of one group justifies the evil of a much larger group.

Actually, you can blame that on the British, post-WW I.

The Middle East's problems far pre-date the rise of western imperialism.

A-Yup. Back in the days of well-done imperialism. When we created an Empire, by god we knew how to keep it; make them fight themselves.

What do you think is happening in Iraq? The problem is now a days people get all fused when the people of an occupied country start killing each other.

For the record, since this argument has long since segued from the OP, I take no issue with the obvious cultural deficiencies of the Arab world. Let them do with their cultures what they like.

I do object, however, when they seek to foist those cultures on us through simple demographic math (this being the main point of the article as it was posted), and when men with enough republican virtue to see through the ruse and oppose it are dismissed with minimal intellectual exertion as "bigots."

Makes you wonder why the locals there have switched from killing US soldiers (which happens occasionally) to killing each other (which is happening wholesale now - orders of magnitude larger than US casualties)..

Because the way the US entered essentially gave both sides worst fears shape......


I think they have the impression that US troops are non-religious infidel invaders who upset the precarious balance of power in the area, and now they see it as their chance to finally kill off their true opponents - other Muslims who happen to either believe or not believe in Ali.)..

Or get even with those that fucked them over when Saddam was in power. And lets not forget the infighting between pro-Iranian and anti-Iranian factions too,


Most of the dead in Iraq have been killed by Iraqis - not Americans.

But, and this is fairly clear, a good third were killed by Americans. Secondly, had there been no invasion, this wouldn't be happening. Thirdly, had the Americans not been the arrogant offhand ignorant type (such as Rumsfeld, Bremner etc) even then had they bothered to listen to advice, this could have been avoided, but no, its only non-Americans with no vote, so fuck them. Thats the kind of "barbarity" you should be a bit more concerned with.


The Middle East's problems far pre-date the rise of western imperialism..

Well who was it that placed "three rival cultures into a patch of land roughly twice the size of Montana "? Last I looked it was the French and British who drew up that arrangement.

Rep. Virgil Goode (R-VA) (http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/002189.php), concerned over the terrorist threat represented by Keith Ellison (D-MN), warned in a letter about the danger of allowing Muslims to immigrate.



So, there you have it folks: we have to adopt strict immigration policies, or else Muslims will come here! What do they think, we have freedom of religion or something? Hogwash! Freedom of religion is un-American!

The sad bit of this is there will be probably about 10% of you who agree with this xenophobic, bigoted bullshit because you've been programmed by the media to live in stark raving fear of anything Islamic. Sad, sad. But I'm more afraid of losing the ideals of liberty this nation is supposed to represent. The ideals of liberty that people like Virgil Goode wipe their ass with every morning.

Most Americans do believe in freedom of religion. The Muslims don't. Islam teaches that Muslims are to conquer the world for Islam. Look at all the problems Europe is having because of Islamic immigration. Before PCers like you demand a lenient immigration policy, I think that we Americans should expect the same. Look at Saudi Arabia. A guest worker has to leave the country on the very day his contract expires. He can't leave a day early, and if he is late, then he goes to jail for being in the country illegally. America is not nearly as strict.

.

I do object, however, when they seek to foist those cultures on us through simple demographic math (this being the main point of the article as it was posted), and when men with enough republican virtue to see through the ruse and oppose it are dismissed with minimal intellectual exertion as "bigots."

In pre-WW1 Germany, many of the groups which, after the war, would become the basis of the right wing groups which coalseced into the NSDAP and its support base, were concerned about the seemingly ever expanding numbers of "lesser peoples", as compared to the declining birth rates in "civilised" countries. Also with the "decadence" of Europe as a whole and France in particular. Draw what lessons you will.

Gift-of-god, none of those things you cite matter because they are subject to the passing political whims of the time.

Thank you for your intelligent response. While many of these things can, and are, influenced by whims of the moment, they are also the main vehicles of cultural inertia. If it were that easy to radically change them (which is what Muslims would need to do in order to undermine basic US ideals), then we would be having radical revolutions all the time. This is obviously not the case.

History? Rewritten easily enough. Most textbooks today focus less on history and more on individual groups of minorities' contributions to them. Schools are political constructs subject to political pressures; if a certain population grows large enough they will demand concessions.

While your description of history textbooks tells me a lot about you, it does not contradict a basic truth: history is written by the winner. Therefore, the Muslims would have already had to undermine US culture before they could rewrite history. You can't rewrite history until you're the winner.

Dominant religions? Well, this is silly, as the dominant religion will cease to be Christianity if large numbers of Muslims come here. It doesn't help that the religious argument for preserving American culture and society as it is now is usually dismissed, as the OP has repeatedly demonstrated, as "xenophobia.".

While many US citizens self-identify as Christians, the US has no official religion. One can therefore say that the US has two religious traditions: one is a diverse group of christian denominations, and the other is a staunch defense of freedom of religion. In fact, I don't think you could have had one without the other. I think both of these things are ingrained in the vast majority of US citizens who have the power to influence religion in the USA.

Languages are also subject to political forces. Note that due to our large Hispanic population it is no longer considered politically correct to advocate English-only language policies. As before, if a group gets large enough, they will demand concessions, and democratic governments will be powerless to resist, especially when coupled with the corrosively modernistic forces of liberalism.

Since Spanish has been spoken in the USA since before 1776, and is only beginning to receive any legal recognition, I think this is a fine example of a cultural unifier (language) acting as a socially conservative force. And even if you were overrun by 55000 Muslims each year (the number of Diversity Visas), the english speaking population would still vastly outnumber those who only spoke arabic.

Arts and other cultural achievements are, again, irrelevant, as cultural achievements mean nothing to people who have no intrinsic ties to them -- i.e., foreigners.

We seem much more comfortable with propagating...values to future
generations nonverbally, through a process of being steeped in
media. Apparently this actually works to some degree, for police in
many lands are now complaining that local arrestees are insisting on
having their Miranda rights read to them, just like perps in American
TV cop shows. When it's explained to them that they are in a different
country, where those rights do not exist, they become
outraged. Starsky and Hutch reruns, dubbed into diverse languages, may
turn out, in the long run, to be a greater force for human rights than
the Declaration of Independence.
-- Neal Stephenson


I don't think we are in any danger of a "Muslim majority" any time in the next few centuries. But I do think there is reason to fear that Muslims coming here legally will be able to foist upon the American public things they find politically abhorrent. Not to mention there is always the fear that even a tiny fraction of them could be terrorists. Without stricter enforcement of immigration laws (i.e., actually funding ICE so it can conduct background checks), we have no way of knowing for sure.

I do not think they have the numbers, the money, the organisational skills, or political motivation to foist upon the American public things they find politically abhorrent. This is for many reasons. But even if they did, they would face the same obstacles I've outlined above.

And your fear that one or some of them may be terrorists is just that: your fear. Do not live by it.

The sad bit of this is there will be probably about 10% of you who agree with this xenophobic, bigoted bullshit because you've been programmed by the media to live in stark raving fear of anything Islamic. Sad, sad. But I'm more afraid of losing the ideals of liberty this nation is supposed to represent. The ideals of liberty that people like Virgil Goode wipe their ass with every morning.
I agree with you. While I don't think that those who want Sharia law should be allowed into government, this does not mean all, or most, Muslims. I've read about the new guy in the American parliament, and he seems to be no theocrat.

I agree with you. While I don't think that those who want Sharia law should be allowed into government, this does not mean all, or most, Muslims. I've read about the new guy in the American parliament, and he seems to be no theocrat.

He isn't and that is Congress and not parliment. :D

so you want a group of people to have to vote a certain way...in order to preserve freedoms...hmmmmm
So you see nothing wrong with a mob voting fundamental civil rights into non-existence? Or does it matter that the mob is Muslim?

It's easier to just act the victim and take up your place as an "oppressed brown person" crying out against American bigotry, or to just ignore the problem and be a normal guy who happens to be Muslim than it is to stand up to folks who might blow you up.
Most Muslims in America are from east Asia. They aren't Arab or Persian/Pukhtoon/etc like they are in Europe.

Really? And it has nothing to do with the fact that suicide bombers and those who send planes into buildings rant continuously about their religious mission with zeal?
He means people like you, for listening to the terrorist BS about "representing Muslims".

But maybe it's easier to refrain from generalizations when we're talking about white people.
Well, a huge number of Christians are not white. I think it's more about being the majority that makes them immune from stereotype. Then again, a lot of people equate Catholic priests with paedophiles. :(

People like this make me sick.

What happened to the freedoms we hold true here in the United States? Are we that afraid to be attacked by terrorists that we have to start restricting immigration so much? We have more of a problem with domestic terrorism than we do with threats from Bin Laden.

This country has grown so much and is unique in the fact that we are so diverse. Our major cities have more cultural diversity than some countries!

Yet here we are with some people that are so bigoted that we have to resort to preventing people from coming into our country because they are Muslim!

Some of my closest friends are devout Muslims, but they are some of the nicest and coolest people I have ever met. I am not afraid of being bombed or shot up in a crowded street. I do not walk around afraid of the "Muslim threat" some people say is in our country.

I guess people just fear what they do not know. Right now, it's Islam.. who knows what we will be fearing next.

This guy is a nut.

Gotta agree with you there, man.

It's easier to just act the victim and take up your place as an "oppressed brown person" crying out against American bigotry, or to just ignore the problem and be a normal guy who happens to be Muslim than it is to stand up to folks who might blow you up.

That, and a big payday when US Airways settles.

Well, no one seems to be thinking "Christian" is synonymous with "abortion clinic bomber," or "Catholic" synonymous with "IRA terrorist." But maybe it's easier to refrain from generalizations when we're talking about white people.

In the case of abortion clinic bombers, the numbers are insignificant. I do, indeed, associate the IRA with the Catholic Church. Every IRA terrorist that I've ever read about was Catholic. The Church failed to express it's outrage in this case, just as the peaceful Muslim religion has failed to condemn it's own.

"[i]f American citizens don’t wake up and adopt the Virgil Goode position on immigration there will likely be many more Muslims elected to office and demanding the use of the Koran. I fear that in the next century we will have many more Muslims in the United States if we do not adopt the strict immigration policies that I believe are necessary to preserve the values and beliefs traditional to the United States of America and to prevent our resources from being swamped."

those republicans! They're so funny! They claim they're not really racists any more and then one of them flips out and runs around the stage yelling shit like this, waving his hands.

The only thing i'm worried about is the terrorists. Other than that, what's wrong with a few Muslims in our fair country?

Why do people expect others to condemn the other guy's failures every time? Some people do not come from a tradition of protesting. A anonymous protest of some internet user is fairly insignificant.

Hey, we found out who Deep Kimchi voted for!

What on earth are you doing with a signature like that? And what are Moros?

What on earth are you doing with a signature like that? And what are Moros?

It's a shining example of how some of the Islamaphobic voices on NSG think. The Moros were a Philippines tribe that early Americans had encountered during its brief colonial phase.

Moros were the reason we designed the 1911 .45. Big round and lots of stopping power for those coked up warriors with machetes...

This is pure racism nothing else. I can’t wait for the spin doctors to try to tell us all what he really meant was ….

Dontcha love it when people apply the actions of a small minority to an entire race/religion?

Yep, the muslims are in every shadow waiting to blow you up. And the commies are still under your bed waiting to take away your corporations.

Dontcha love it when people apply the actions of a small minority to an entire race/religion?

Yep, the muslims are in every shadow waiting to blow you up. And the commies are still under your bed waiting to take away your corporations.

And the gays are hiding in our closets waiting to give us gaydiation poisoning!

Ohshit, I clicked the wrong one. For the record, I think Muslims are great.

, just as the peaceful Muslim religion has failed to condemn it's own.

Really? I say bollocks. And whats this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1554177.stm


http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

Mustafa Mashhur, General Guide, Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt; Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan, Pakistan; Muti Rahman Nizami, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh, Bangladesh; Shaykh Ahmad Yassin, Founder, Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas), Palestine; Rashid Ghannoushi, President, Nahda Renaissance Movement, Tunisia; Fazil Nour, President, PAS - Parti Islam SeMalaysia, Malaysia; and 40 other Muslim scholars and politicians:
“The undersigned, leaders of Islamic movements, are horrified by the events of Tuesday 11 September 2001 in the United States which resulted in massive killing, destruction and attack on innocent lives. We express our deepest sympathies and sorrow. We condemn, in the strongest terms, the incidents, which are against all human and Islamic norms. This is grounded in the Noble Laws of Islam which forbid all forms of attacks on innocents. God Almighty says in the Holy Qur'an: 'No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another' (Surah al-Isra 17:15).”
http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm

Have you ever bothered your arse to see if any of them actually condemned anything ever? Or do you sit there eating something covered with too much cheese and bask in your pit of bigoted ignorance?

Yes, save us, Mr. Goode.

Well, I'm sorry, but in my mind, a country's capital is it's fortress, it's stronghold, it's spiritual home. When you attack a capital like they did to London, it's time to get HARDCORE on their ass!

Well, I'm sorry, but in my mind, a country's capital is it's fortress, it's stronghold, it's spiritual home. When you attack a capital like they did to London, it's time to get HARDCORE on their ass!

Which is why where they were (Afghanistan) has fuck all American troops in it and Iraq (which had fuck all to do with it) has nearly all the ones they could scrape together...Great stuff.

This is pure racism nothing else. I can’t wait for the spin doctors to try to tell us all what he really meant was ….

And before anyone can ask when Muslims became a race instead of a religion, I'll answer--the second that people like Virgil Goode started acting like they're a racial subset as opposed to a religious group. What Goode meant when he said "muslim" was "Arab." That dumbass probably has no clue that the most populous muslim nation in the world is Indonesia.

I do, indeed, associate the IRA with the Catholic Church. Every IRA terrorist that I've ever read about was Catholic. The Church failed to express it's outrage in this case, just as the peaceful Muslim religion has failed to condemn it's own.
That is bullshit! Firstly, the IRA weren't committing attacks in the name of God. Yes, they claimed to be Catholic (though there was always a significant atheist faction), and the Church spoke out against their atrocities and appealed for peace. Repeatedly.

With your failure to recognise calls for peace from both Christian and Islamic moderates, I think you're just not paying attention.

And before anyone can ask when Muslims became a race instead of a religion, I'll answer--the second that people like Virgil Goode started acting like they're a racial subset as opposed to a religious group. What Goode meant when he said "muslim" was "Arab." That dumbass probably has no clue that the most populous muslim nation in the world is Indonesia.
And most Muslims in the US aren't Arab, are they?

Well, I'm sorry, but in my mind, a country's capital is it's fortress, it's stronghold, it's spiritual home. When you attack a capital like they did to London, it's time to get HARDCORE on their ass!
The relevance of this comment to the thread is highly questionable.

And most Muslims in the US aren't Arab, are they?

In the minds of most Americans, yes; thats the point.

In the minds of most Americans, yes; thats the point.
Wikipedia reveals that the largest number are from South Asia, so characterising them as Arabs would be incorrect, but they are indeed dark-skinned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_States#Demographics

Wikipedia reveals that the largest number are from South Asia, so characterising them as Arabs would be incorrect, but they are indeed dark-skinned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_States#Demographics

Most Americans have trouble differentiating between Arabs and Indians/Pakistanis, and in many American minds, "Arab" and "Muslim" are one in the same. The idea of non-Arab Muslims is unthinkable.

In the case of abortion clinic bombers, the numbers are insignificant. I do, indeed, associate the IRA with the Catholic Church. Every IRA terrorist that I've ever read about was Catholic. The Church failed to express it's outrage in this case, just as the peaceful Muslim religion has failed to condemn it's own.

How many sites, news, and so on with peaceful muslims expressing their distaste for terrorism must you see before you stop spouting this bigoted tripe?

Most Americans have trouble differentiating between Arabs and Indians/Pakistanis, and in many American minds, "Arab" and "Muslim" are one in the same. The idea of non-Arab Muslims is unthinkable.

Yussef Islam (formerly Cat Stevens) is second on the Real AmericanÖ Execution List, right after The Dixie Chicks.

:D

How many sites, news, and so on with peaceful muslims expressing their distaste for terrorism must you see before you stop spouting this bigoted tripe?

Just disingenuous lip service from a contented Islamaphobe. You notice they never go looking for such messages; they expect "The Liberal Media" to bring it to their front doors.

What is the problem here? If the comment was a excessive, the notion that muslims, along with anyone else, should be precluded from immigrating to either the US or UK is sound.

What is the problem here? If the comment was a excessive, the notion that muslims, along with anyone else, should be precluded from immigrating to either the US or UK is sound.
There probably is a case for reducing the amount if immigration, but completely barring it would be just as unhelpful. We need both low-skilled labour and professionals (like doctors and teachers, international students) in order to fill gaps in our economy.

Well, I'm sorry, but in my mind, a country's capital is it's fortress, it's stronghold, it's spiritual home. When you attack a capital like they did to London, it's time to get HARDCORE on their ass!

In that case, the U.S. needs to wipe Britain off the map.

In that case, the U.S. needs to wipe Britain off the map.
Can they do it when I'm on holiday?

In that case, the U.S. needs to wipe Britain off the map.

But then where would NBC find foreign sitcoms to ripoff?

:D

Can they do it when I'm on holiday?

Well, we've waited 194 years, so I guess we can wait a bit longer.

Well, we've waited 194 years, so I guess we can wait a bit longer.
Then all you need to do is wait for all the freezing fog to clear so I can get a plane out first.:D

Then all you need to do is wait for all the freezing fog to clear so I can get a plane out first.:D

So we'll attack in... never, I guess.

So we'll attack in... never, I guess.
British weather saves the day!

British weather saves the day!

We'll just hire the Norwegians or something.

We'll just hire the Norwegians or something.
*Runs away screaming*

Most Americans have trouble differentiating between Arabs and Indians/Pakistanis, and in many American minds, "Arab" and "Muslim" are one in the same. The idea of non-Arab Muslims is unthinkable.
America has millions of Muslims... surely most people have at least seen some?

America has millions of Muslims... surely most people have at least seen some?

Probably. But they don't look stereotypical, so people don't notice.

Just disingenuous lip service from a contented Islamaphobe. You notice they never go looking for such messages; they expect "The Liberal Media" to bring it to their front doors.

And when said media, even Fox "George Bush should be crowned and fellated" News, DOES, they go "well, it's the librul media, so they'll try and suck up to these turrorists".

Ah well. That's pretty much why I win arguments so easily in these threads.