NationStates Jolt Archive

First things first: :rolleyes:

That goes to everyone involved.

A bunch of nutjobs (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,455183,00.html) whose families once lived in Prussian areas which now belong to Poland has sued at the European Court of Human Rights, for either their land back or compensation.

As a result, the Polish government is absolutely furious (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,455516,00.html) at the very idea. Their target seems to be the German government. The current Polish heads of state are populists who have been known to use Germany as the outside 'enemy' to shore up domestic support, so perhaps the reaction shouldn't surprise anyone.

What does surprise me is their plan to reopen negotiations on the border treaty that was signed in 1990 and declare the Oder-Neiße Line the final border for all eternity.

The treaty did not contain anything about compensation claims, I believe, so they probably want to add something. However, the German government doesn't like the idea, fearing that compensation claims will then be directed at it instead of the Poles.

I suppose you'd call that a new low-point in relations, at the end of which might stand an "agree to disagree" on the treaty which was meant to make the border final.

Again: :rolleyes:

You're definitely right. The 'nutjobs' are quiet insane.

Someone dial 911. This is going to get u-g-l-y.

Did the nutjobs move out of Prussia of their own free will, or were they deported? Either way, taking it to an international level is just ridiculous. They must be really short of money.

well I tried to see reason in there argument but there is none millions of people came back home to find someone else in there house or lost there house altogether this is no different

Its what happens in war sadly my sympathy goes out but that’s all

Did the nutjobs move out of Prussia of their own free will, or were they deported?
I'd say most of them fled the Russians, though there probably were a few forced removals too.

Did the nutjobs move out of Prussia of their own free will, or were they deported? Either way, taking it to an international level is just ridiculous. They must be really short of money.Depends. Some of them fled rape and murder, others were forcibly driven from their homes, others fled the approaching red army. None of them qualify as free will.

Did the nutjobs move out of Prussia of their own free will, or were they deported? Either way, taking it to an international level is just ridiculous. They must be really short of money.

They were killed, raped and then those that remained of the German population got deported out of Prussia by the Red Army, who then formed a lot of former Prussia into a Russian enclave called Kaliningrad.

Just to make the scope of the matter a bit clear. The current country of Poland is composed of roughly 1/3 ex-German land, making it a very touchy subject. Also Poland does not want a mass-german exodus to those areas either, since it could cause Germans outnumberring ethnic poles in some areas of western poland as a result, or even become a substatial minority.


Of course I see it personally pragmatically. Those Germans that got kicked out are not the guilty. The Prussians the least guilty got the harshest punishment. The National Socialist movement, originated in Southern Germany, and even in his height of power Adolf Hitler always had a few misstrustfull words to say about the Prussians. Sadly Southern Germany, Bavaria where the National Socialist movement originated was left nigh untouched by the war.
But the Prussians, who of all German states were overall the least supportive of Hitler (Prussia's minister of foreign affairs was very critical of Hitler, but due to his popularity was only removed in 1944 I believe). They got the royal screwjob, out of their former state the heartland became a Russian enclave, the outskirts were Polinized and incorporated in the new Polish state and they were forced to become refugees and split among the other Germans away from their homeland.

All in all, according to the general rule the Prussians deserve;

a) the right of return (Poland allowing all descendants of Prussians to be allowed to settle in Poland without having to go through the permits other foreigners need).

b) Compensation for their losses

c) Make a border compromise with Germany, giving some of the old German territory back and allowing the refugees to settle there (knowing the polish the least likely option).



** Also will be nice to see how the German government will try and deal with this. I find it kind of offending how they try and shove the torments and problems of the Prussian people under the carpet for the sake of diplomatic unity, but meh politics.

I'm kind of with the Prussians. If national borders moved and forced me from my home, I'd want compensation, too.

I've also long thought that Koenigsburg and Danzig should be made free cities.

Depends. Some of them fled rape and murder, others were forcibly driven from their homes, others fled the approaching red army. None of them qualify as free will.

If they were not forced to leave then logically, they made a free will choice.

If they were not forced to leave then logically, they made a free will choice.

So because you know that the Russians will most likely rape your wife and by statistic at least kill one of your 5 children, you just have to stay until they actually push you out instead of using common sense and fleeing the impeding danger.
It is not a free choice, it is being forced by the circumstances to find shelter and safety for your family.
The same as a heavy storm forces you to go into the storm bunker. Free will is if you know you have nothing to fear or lose but choose to do it anyway.

I think kaczynski is the nutjob here. while giving the land back to germany is not the path I would take, i think it is rediculouc that he is afraid of foreigners making up noting more then a notable minority.

If they were not forced to leave then logically, they made a free will choice.

are you honestly saying that because they fled before the red army raped* them to death they are less legitimate?

*no I'm not using a buzzword there all the men where long dead and the reports coming from the front about captured women where not too jolly

First things first: :rolleyes:

That goes to everyone involved.

A bunch of nutjobs (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,455183,00.html) whose families once lived in Prussian areas which now belong to Poland has sued at the European Court of Human Rights, for either their land back or compensation.

As a result, the Polish government is absolutely furious (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,455516,00.html) at the very idea. Their target seems to be the German government. The current Polish heads of state are populists who have been known to use Germany as the outside 'enemy' to shore up domestic support, so perhaps the reaction shouldn't surprise anyone.

What does surprise me is their plan to reopen negotiations on the border treaty that was signed in 1990 and declare the Oder-Neiße Line the final border for all eternity.

The treaty did not contain anything about compensation claims, I believe, so they probably want to add something. However, the German government doesn't like the idea, fearing that compensation claims will then be directed at it instead of the Poles.

I suppose you'd call that a new low-point in relations, at the end of which might stand an "agree to disagree" on the treaty which was meant to make the border final.

Again: :rolleyes:


They are not more nutjobs than morons who deny the suffering of German people, who was largely unaware of the actions of few Nazis...

So because you know that the Russians will most likely rape your wife and by statistic at least kill one of your 5 children, you just have to stay until they actually push you out instead of using common sense and fleeing the impeding danger.

They had a choice to stay or go and they choose to go. That means they choose to go. They were not forced to leave by definition.

It is not a free choice, it is being forced by the circumstances to find shelter and safety for your family.

It was still their choice. My Hitler and Nazism professor's family fled from the Red Army. They made the choice to leave (and that is straight from the Professor's mouth too) I'll take his word over yours Cybach since his family went through it.

The same as a heavy storm forces you to go into the storm bunker.

You still have a choice to do so. Granted not going there is stupid but you still made the choice to go there. Just like fleeing a hurricane. You have the choice to leave or not to leave.

Free will is if you know you have nothing to fear or lose but choose to do it anyway.

Free will is making decisions on your own. That is what the people did unless they were actually deported.

are you honestly saying that because they fled before the red army raped* them to death they are less legitimate?

*no I'm not using a buzzword there all the men where long dead and the reports coming from the front about captured women where not too jolly

If they choose to flee....

They had a choice to stay or go and they choose to go. That means they choose to go. They were not forced to leave by definition.



It was still their choice. My Hitler and Nazism professor's family fled from the Red Army. They made the choice to leave (and that is straight from the Professor's mouth too) I'll take his word over yours Cybach since his family went through it.



You still have a choice to do so. Granted not going there is stupid but you still made the choice to go there. Just like fleeing a hurricane. You have the choice to leave or not to leave.



Free will is making decisions on your own. That is what the people did unless they were actually deported.


MWAHAHA

If they were not forced to leave then logically, they made a free will choice.You seem to have a misconceived notion of what free will and choice mean.

You seem to have a misconceived notion of what free will and choice mean.

Nope. Everyone has a choice. They make the wrong choice, they live with the consequences. We could go on an on about this but then, we'll detract from the thread.

Just to make the scope of the matter a bit clear. The current country of Poland is composed of roughly 1/3 ex-German land, making it a very touchy subject.
Poland was moved westwards. A substantial part of it was taken by the Soviets.

Also Poland does not want a mass-german exodus to those areas either, since it could cause Germans outnumberring ethnic poles in some areas of western poland as a result, or even become a substatial minority.
Hardly. Most descendants are quite happy in Germany, rather than Poland (where standard of living is still somewhat lower).

a) the right of return (Poland allowing all descendants of Prussians to be allowed to settle in Poland without having to go through the permits other foreigners need).
Guess what: It's all EU.

They don't just want to live there, they want heaps of money, and they want their old houses back. So you're gonna be expelling a whole bunch of Polish people, the vast majority of whom have even less to do with what happened in 1945 than the Prussians had to do with Hitler (oh, and about that: http://www.colorado.edu/IBS/PEC/johno/pub/nazi_pa/nazi_pa_image006.jpg ).

Compensation for their losses
They need to talk to the Soviets about that.

Make a border compromise with Germany, giving some of the old German territory back and allowing the refugees to settle there (knowing the polish the least likely option).
Yeah, because Germany can really afford to integrate yet more ex-commie lands and pay for them.

I find it kind of offending how they try and shove the torments and problems of the Prussian people under the carpet for the sake of diplomatic unity, but meh politics.
"Torments and Problems." Hahahaha!

Look, my grandma fled Allenstein in '45 and ended up in Bavaria. She never went back home. Not the end of the world, believe me.

Nope. Everyone has a choice. They make the wrong choice, they live with the consequences. We could go on an on about this but then, we'll detract from the thread.Incorrect. The questions to be asked are "Was there coercion in form of threats, pressure, or the like?" Yeah there was. Sorry, no freedom of choice there, bucko.

Yeah, because Germany can really afford to integrate yet more ex-commie lands and pay for them.

Yes, they can. They're the third largest economy in the world.

In my mind, Germany should AT LEAST receive their pre-WWII territory back.

Poland was moved westwards. A substantial part of it was taken by the Soviets.


Hardly. Most descendants are quite happy in Germany, rather than Poland (where standard of living is still somewhat lower).


Guess what: It's all EU.

They don't just want to live there, they want heaps of money, and they want their old houses back. So you're gonna be expelling a whole bunch of Polish people, the vast majority of whom have even less to do with what happened in 1945 than the Prussians had to do with Hitler (oh, and about that: http://www.colorado.edu/IBS/PEC/johno/pub/nazi_pa/nazi_pa_image006.jpg ).


They need to talk to the Soviets about that.


Yeah, because Germany can really afford to integrate yet more ex-commie lands and pay for them.


"Torments and Problems." Hahahaha!

Look, my grandma fled Allenstein in '45 and ended up in Bavaria. She never went back home. Not the end of the world, believe me.

Right about all points, I admit wrong. Except about the Soviets, they don't exist anymore, so good luck asking them :P

Incorrect. The questions to be asked are "Was there coercion in form of threats, pressure, or the like?" Yeah there was. Sorry, no freedom of choice there, bucko.

Shall we look at how the war was fought by both sides and how propaganda also played a role? Yes I know what the general orders of the USSR were. I would flee too but it would still be my choice.

Yes, they can. They're the third largest economy in the world.Isn't doing much good for East Germany at the moment.
In my mind, Germany should AT LEAST receive their pre-WWII territory back.Maybe you should replace that notion with German language skills.

Yes, they can. They're the third largest economy in the world.

In my mind, Germany should AT LEAST receive their pre-WWII territory back.

That's fantasy at this point in time. Meanwhile, Germany still pays Israel compensations whose air planes harrass German ships...

Right about all points, I admit wrong. Except about the Soviets, they don't exist anymore, so good luck asking them :P

You can still go to Moscow.

Shall we look at how the war was fought by both sides and how propaganda also played a role? Yes I know what the general orders of the USSR were. I would flee too but it would still be my choice.Was there coercion? Threats? Yes, and therefore no freedom to choose.

Yes, they can. They're the third largest economy in the world.

In my mind, Germany should AT LEAST receive their pre-WWII territory back.

Define what they are as they had alot of pre-wwii territory.Shall they get back parts of the Checz Republic and all of Austria or parts of Lithuania?

That's fantasy at this point in time. Meanwhile, Germany still pays Israel compensations whose air planes harrass German ships...We're paying Israel compensation?

i'm curious about one thing.

prior to world war 2, germans made up a minority of quite a few countries in eastern europe, including poland. After the events of world war 2, many of these people, who had been living in their host country for decades fled/forced out. So why had this only come up with poland? Is it simply because its next door, because their the most vocal group or is there some other reason?

Yes, they can. They're the third largest economy in the world.
Look, you're not the one who's been paying a "solidarity tax" for sixteen years.

It's a whole lot of money, and given that all it amounts to is a few lines on a map...hardly worth it.

Was there coercion? Threats? Yes, and therefore no freedom to choose.

And I did not say that there was not some did I? No I did not. So stop telling me what you think I am saying. Were there? Yes but people still fled of their own free will. Christ. I even posted an example of it.

Define what they are as they had alot of pre-wwii territory.Shall they get back parts of the Checz Republic and all of Austria or parts of Lithuania?

Pre-Hitler-pre-WWII. And Memel.

i'm curious about one thing.

prior to world war 2, germans made up a minority of quite a few countries in eastern europe, including poland. After the events of world war 2, many of these people, who had been living in their host country for decades fled/forced out. So why had this only come up with poland? Is it simply because its next door, because their the most vocal group or is there some other reason?

Because almost all of modern Poland is made up of territory stolen from Germany. The next largest stolen region is Kaliningrad.

Pre-Hitler-pre-WWII. And Memel.

So basically the Weimar republic.

So basically the Weimar republic.

That'll do.

We're paying Israel compensation?

Yes.


Germany has also paid extensive reparations, including nearly $70 billion to the state of Israel. It has given $15 billion to Holocaust survivors and will continue to compensate them until 2015.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_war_crimes

That'll do.
And who pays for getting those areas up to scratch?

Ah Poland won't last much longer anyway...;)

I'm kind of with the Prussians. If national borders moved and forced me from my home, I'd want compensation, too.

I've also long thought that Koenigsburg and Danzig should be made free cities.

That's nice, but wholly absurd. Prussia ceased to exist BECAUSE of the Prussians and the rise of modern Germany. That government in turn lost in WW1 and no longer exists. Its successor state (the Weimar Republic) no longer exists. Its successor state (The Third Reich) no longer exists. Its successor states (East and West Germany) ALSO no longer exists.

...so you're talking about compensation four governments back. When does it end? :(

You of course mean Kaliningrad and Gdańsk. There are no cities called Königsberg or Danzig. They are extinct like Constantinople.

Because almost all of modern Poland is made up of territory stolen from Germany. The next largest stolen region is Kaliningrad.

...which is part of Russia. :rolleyes:

Prior claim means nothing. Else Italy owns Europe, eh?

That's nice, but wholly absurd. Prussia ceased to exist BECAUSE of the Prussians and the rise of modern Germany. That government in turn lost in WW1 and no longer exists. Its successor state (the Weimar Republic) no longer exists. Its successor state (The Third Reich) no longer exists. Its successor states (East and West Germany) ALSO no longer exists.

...so you're talking about compensation four governments back. When does it end? :(

You of course mean Kaliningrad and Gdańsk. There are no cities called Königsberg or Danzig. They are extinct like Constantinople.

Hate to break this to you but Gdansk and Danzig are exactly the same city. Gdańsk (IPA: ['ɡdaɲsk] (help·info); German: Danzig (help·info), Kashubian: Gduńsk, Late Latin: Gedania; older English Dantzig; also other languages) is Poland's sixth-largest city, and also its principal seaport and the capital of the Pomeranian Voivodeship.

Just depends on where you are from.

As for Kaliningrad, this should be returned as it is not technically Russian soil but spoils of war.

I've always said Germany looks better with Poland annexed to it, and this sounds like a casus belli if I've ever seen one. Somebody should look into it.

Dude you almost had me shit my pants with fear with that title.
The Nazis are back!!! yikes

Hate to break this to you but Gdansk and Danzig are exactly the same city.

Just depends on where you are from.

Nope. Danzig *was* a city. Just like Richmond *was* the capital of the Confederate States of America. Now Richmond is again the capital of Virginia, and Danzig is a page in a history book. The city is Gdansk.

As for Kaliningrad, this should be returned as it is not technically Russian soil but spoils of war.

Why? Germany lost, and these days it's population is 78% Russian and less than 1% German. You going to give all of them reparations too? Please.

Nope. Danzig *was* a city. Just like Richmond *was* the capital of the Confederate States of America. Now Richmond is again the capital of Virginia, and Danzig is a page in a history book. The city is Gdansk.

Sorry but language wins in this case. Danzig is German for the city Gdansk. I have the late Latin word for the same city as well as Older English word for the same city. Shall we dispense with this debate because in this case, I have the power of language on my side that defeats what you are saying.

Gdańsk (Danzig) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gdańsk

caio

Why? Germany lost, and these days it's population is 78% Russian and less than 1% German. You going to give all of them reparations too? Please.

Legally, it is not soviet territory. However, I do not care if it is returned or not.

Why? Germany lost, and these days it's population is 78% Russian and less than 1% German. You going to give all of them reparations too? Please.

What Germany lost in the WWs is inherently unfair. Hey, next time the US loses a war, let's lop off everything west of Minnesota-Iowa-Missouri-Arkansas-Louisiana. Then you'll know what it's like.

Dude you almost had me shit my pants with fear with that title.
The Nazis are back!!! yikes

No fear. The Germans haven't won a war against a non-French enemy since the Austro-Prussian War in 1866. :D

No fear. The Germans haven't won a war against a non-French enemy since the Austro-Prussian War in 1866. :D

LOL

No fear. The Germans haven't won a war against a non-French enemy since the Austro-Prussian War in 1866. :D

The GERMANS have never won a war.

The GERMANS have never won a war.

Oh brother.

Oh brother.

They haven't. World War I, lost. World War II, lost. That's all they've fought in.

What Germany lost in the WWs is inherently unfair. Hey, next time the US loses a war, let's lop off everything west of Minnesota-Iowa-Missouri-Arkansas-Louisiana. Then you'll know what it's like.

Unfair? ROTFLMAO! You've got to be kidding me. What's next? The rehabilitation of Hitler? :rolleyes:

Yeah, if the US lost wars. So far, so good.
(Before anyone jumps in: the US never lost a battle in Viet Nam, and there is no Army nor government fighting the US in Iraq. Kind of hard to ask for reparations when there's no other country, eh?)

Unfair? ROTFLMAO! You've got to be kidding me. What's next? The rehabilitation of Hitler? :rolleyes:

You have no sense of honour.

Sorry but language wins in this case. Danzig is Niemiecki for the city Gdansk. I have the late Latin word for the same city as well as Older English word for the same city. Shall we dispense with this debate because in this case, I have the power of language on my side that defeats what you are saying.

Gdańsk (Danzig) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gdańsk

caio.

You're just saying I'm wrong and that's all there is to it, based on what a word translates to? LOL. Please note what happens when this gówno is taken further.


Legally, it is not soviet territory. However, I do not care if it is returned or not.

You are correct, it is RUSSIAN territory, as there is no longer a Soviet Union.
And warfare is quite a legal way to gain territory. I suspect you're just a little sore that it's not worked out for Niemcy since 1870.

Yes you do else we'd not be having this debate. :D

You have no sense of honour.

Mass murder isn't an honourable matter. I saw what the Niemiecki did with that little death camp near Oświęcim.

Which is what really pisses me off is the "never again" Europe has allowed Jugoslavia, Rwanda and Darfur.

Aren't property rights fun?

You're just saying I'm wrong and that's all there is to it, based on what a word translates to? LOL. Please note what happens when this gówno is taken further.

WE can go on about this all we like however, I will stick with linguistics.

I suspect you're just a little sore that it's not worked out for Niemcy since 1870.

It hasn't been working out for the Germans since September 9.

Mass murder isn't a laughing matter.

And the Allies did the same thing.

And the Allies did the same thing.

Feel free to explain what you're talking about.

Feel free to explain what you're talking about.

Mass murder and war crimes.

Mass murder and war crimes.

Feel free to explain what you're talking about.

It hasn't been working out for the Germans since September 9.

What? The failed bombing of London in 1915? :confused:

Feel free to explain what you're talking about.

Oh please. The allies are fucking squeaky clean, aren't they?

What? The failed bombing of London in 1915? :confused:

September 9CE: Arminius defeats the Romans in the Battle of Teutoburg Forest.

Oh please. The allies are fucking squeaky clean, aren't they?

Compared to what the Nazis did, yea. Well except for the USSR.

Oh please. The allies are fucking squeaky clean, aren't they?

Feel free to explain what you're talking about.



Look, you can throw these one liner taunts, or put up something of substance.
And, yes, the Allies are clean, if only because there weren't any death camps, any "final solution of the Aryan problem", and they fought a war to stop tyranny. Et cetera.

Even the Soviet Union's retributive punishment of its zones of control is nothing compared to what Nazi Germany did. QED.

Feel free to explain what you're talking about.

Look, you can throw these one liner taunts, or put up something of substance.
And, yes, the Allies are clean, if only because there weren't any death camps, any "final solution of the Aryan problem", and they fought a war to stop tyranny. Et cetera.

Even the Soviet Union's retributive punishment of its zones of control is nothing compared to what Nazi Germany did. QED.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_atrocities

September 9CE: Arminius defeats the Romans in the Battle of Teutoburg Forest.

If you don't want to count Alsace-Lorraine in 1870 or the gain of the whole German Confederation from Austria in 1866 and roll it back to 9 Anno Domini, be my guest.

Feel free to explain what you're talking about.

He seems to be accusing the allies of murdering twelve million people, which is just nonsense.

Or, he is saying the Nazis did not murder twelve million people, which is even more nonsense.

@OP: There's no need for any drastic border squiggilations seeing as the EU allows freedom of migration. Neither do I think its fair for modern day Poland and Germany to pay for the injustices of the People's Republic of Poland or the Third Reich. I recognise that the Warsaw Pact nations were not very nice places for people of German ethnicity to live (those who didn't flee faced a life of discrimination, paralegal incarceration and 'disappearance'), but the Prussians have to face reality, that they don't get to live in Poland anymore (you may say that Germany has historical claims to two thirds of Poland, but the Polono-Lithuanian Commonwealth has claims to half of Central Europe... live and let live...)

If you don't want to count Alsace-Lorraine in 1870 or the gain of the whole German Confederation from Austria in 1866 and roll it back to 9 Anno Domini, be my guest.

Yeah, how long did those last? Besides, they were Prussian victories, not German.

He seems to be accusing the allies of murdering twelve million people, which is just nonsense.

Or, he is saying the Nazis did not murder twelve million people, which is even more nonsense.

Yes, the Allies killed 2 millions, but since the Nazis killed more, it didn't even happen! This victor's logic is great!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_atrocities

Next time don't attack Russia. It hasn't worked since Ghengis Khan.
So let's dispense with this silly non-debate, eh?

Shall we talk about Otto van Bismark?

Yes, the Allies killed 2 millions, but since the Nazis killed more, it didn't even happen! This victor's logic is great!

You have a problem with your logic. Allies did not engage in genocide whereas the Germans did. On top of that, the war was fought before precision guided munitions. Naturally whole cities would be bombed.

On top of that, let us look at the type of war that was faught between the USSR and Nazi Germany.

You have a problem with your logic. Allies did not engage in genocide whereas the Germans did. On top of that, the war was fought before precision guided munitions. Naturally whole cities would be bombed.

Yes. Like burning down Dresden for no reason whatsoever.

Yes. Like burning down Dresden for no reason whatsoever.

It was war.

It was war.

LIKE BURNING DOWN DRESDEN FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER.

LIKE BURNING DOWN DRESDEN FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER.

It was bombed to the ground :rolleyes:

And again, it was W-A-R. You may not like it but in war, especially back then, you do all you can to demoralize your enemy.

LIKE BURNING DOWN DRESDEN FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER.

No, there were reasons for that. They just weren't particularly good, or even closely related to what subsequently happened.

And again, it was W-A-R. You may not like it but in war, especially back then, you do all you can to demoralize your enemy.We can trust you won't bitch about deathcamps then..? Afterall... it was W-A-R

We can trust you won't bitch about deathcamps then..? Afterall... it was W-A-R

Big difference between systematiclly killing someone based on race than fighting a war.

Big difference between systematiclly killing someone based on race than fighting a war.

The Germans were... "demoralising the enemy."

The Germans were... "demoralising the enemy."

They certainly tried by bombing London. That did not work out to well did it?

Big difference between systematiclly killing someone based on race than fighting a war.
Yeah? Please elaborate. Your goalposts, remember.

They certainly tried by bombing London. That did not work out to well did it?

No, but the death camps did.

No, but the death camps did.

And whose morale were they destroying? The allies? Once they saw the horror of the camps, they fought harder because of how gastly they did it.

The Jews, in reality, were innocent victims of the Waffen SS and others who bought into Hitler's propaganda.

Wie die Fliegen auf die Scheiße - und zack! ist das Thema dieses Fädchens total ad absurdum geführt. :rolleyes:

Ihr könnt echt stolz auf Euch sein, Ihr Knallköppe! :mad:

Wie die Fliegen auf die Scheiße - und zack! ist das Thema dieses Fädchens total ad absurdum geführt. :rolleyes:

Ihr könnt echt stolz auf Euch sein, Ihr Knallköppe! :mad:

Yeah, what he said.

talking to TPF is just like talking to a wall

oh and not all the german people know of the camps

oh and not all the german people know of the camps
I believe you may have your grammar mixed up (as in meaning to say "knew" rather than "know"). I'm making a wild stab in the dark here...but every German on the planet knows about the camps.

I believe you may have your grammar mixed up (as in meaning to say "knew" rather than "know"). I'm making a wild stab in the dark here...but every German on the planet knows about the camps.

with what i got i never will get it right :(

now they do but not then

Ah Poland won't last much longer anyway...;)

really?

Yeah, what he said.Then why aren't you ducking?

Then why aren't you ducking?
Probably because he understood what I said - at least he reacted like he did, which is enough. :D

Wie die Fliegen auf die Scheiße - und zack! ist das Thema dieses Fädchens total ad absurdum geführt. :rolleyes:

Ihr könnt echt stolz auf Euch sein, Ihr Knallköppe! :mad:

English?

English?
No, that's German. :p

It's in German so the OP and other Germans can have a chuckle. Sorry. :D

No, that's German. :p

It's in German so the OP and other Germans can have a chuckle. Sorry. :DI know enough German that I can translate it except for the funny parts. :(

A few reactions in the German media. I'd hope that someone in Poland could give me their media's side of the story. It's starting to look like it has a lot of potential. :p

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,455692,00.html
German editorialists were clearly irritated by the developments Wednesday. Berlin's center-left daily Der Tagesspiegel asks:

"Can a lawsuit instigated by private citizens of a country against another state seriously disrupt the relations between these two nations? The answer is 'No.' Otherwise there could no longer be any normal diplomatic relations.

"The double absurdity of this situation is that the German government has harshly criticized the actions of the Prussian Trust, but it is not allowed to prohibit its own citizens from filing claims in Strasbourg. Nor has Poland taken any steps to create legal certainty over how the country should deal with the expropriations undertaken by the communists. And instead of making its own judicial position airtight, the government reacts not rationally like an enlightened democracy of the 21st century, but more in the style of a nation-state of the late 19th century.

"The two German-Polish treaties are the basis for the national cooperation of both countries, and not some second-rate accords that should simply be made disposable. To just go ahead and do so anyway is -- let us put it cautiously -- adolescent."