NationStates Jolt Archive

ONE Oft-cited reason for being angry at Bush for mishandling the situation in Iraq:


The Iraqi government and police forces are attrocious and ineffective, at risk of falling apart at any given moment.


ANOTHER Oft-cited reason for being angry at Bush for mishandling the situation in Iraq:


The insurgency and violence within Iraq is astounding, and has not diminished within the time American forces have been there.


ONE Exhaustively suggested solution for the situation in Iraq:


Pull all forces out. Let them stand on their own.


Obvious conclusion:

If we pull out, the Iraqi government will collapse, the insurgency will take over, and all that will have come out of the war will be the loss of thousands of American lives, and the creation of a chaotic state full of anti-American sentiment (both from the groups we've alienated by our presence, and those we would alienate via abandonment) and more than likely, a massive genocide (Sunnis, Shiites, whatever the hell the other groups are, I don't care...and this genocide would, obviously, be considered our fault. Further, any genocide calls for international intervention, which means troops would be coming right back. We would be trading American troops' lives for UN peacekeeping forces' lives, while allowing God-only-knows how many avoidable deaths in the interim)

My rant on the subject:

I'm not saying we should "stay the course," because the fact that the attacks upon American occupying troops has stayed consistent and/or increased (whatever. NOT decreased, as it should) is evidence enough that something is wrong with what we're doing. However, the "get the hell out of Dodge" mentality seems like a bad idea, as well. Perhaps, instead of caving into absolutes (we go ahead EXACTLY as we have been) and extremes (we leave COMPLETELY), we could take a moderate approach...You know, rebuild infrastructure, gradually (not over one year. We've still got troops in pretty much everywhere we've gone to militarily over the last century. Why would Iraq be different?) remove troops, and petition for help from the international community (France, Iran, and Venezuela make a lot of noise, but they've yet to actually commit to any action but whining)...

ONE Oft-cited reason for being angry at Bush for mishandling the situation in Iraq:


The Iraqi government and police forces are attrocious and ineffective, at risk of falling apart at any given moment.


ANOTHER Oft-cited reason for being angry at Bush for mishandling the situation in Iraq:


The insurgency and violence within Iraq is astounding, and has not diminished within the time American forces have been there.


ONE Exhaustively suggested solution for the situation in Iraq:


Pull all forces out. Let them stand on their own.


Obvious conclusion:

If we pull out, the Iraqi government will collapse, the insurgency will take over, and all that will have come out of the war will be the loss of thousands of American lives, and the creation of a chaotic state full of anti-American sentiment (both from the groups we've alienated by our presence, and those we would alienate via abandonment) and more than likely, a massive genocide (Sunnis, Shiites, whatever the hell the other groups are, I don't care...and this genocide would, obviously, be considered our fault. Further, any genocide calls for international intervention, which means troops would be coming right back. We would be trading American troops' lives for UN peacekeeping forces' lives, while allowing God-only-knows how many avoidable deaths in the interim)

My rant on the subject:

I'm not saying we should "stay the course," because the fact that the attacks upon American occupying troops has stayed consistent and/or increased (whatever. NOT decreased, as it should) is evidence enough that something is wrong with what we're doing. However, the "get the hell out of Dodge" mentality seems like a bad idea, as well. Perhaps, instead of caving into absolutes (we go ahead EXACTLY as we have been) and extremes (we leave COMPLETELY), we could take a moderate approach...You know, rebuild infrastructure, gradually (not over one year. We've still got troops in pretty much everywhere we've gone to militarily over the last century. Why would Iraq be different?) remove troops, and petition for help from the international community (France, Iran, and Venezuela make a lot of noise, but they've yet to actually commit to any action but whining)...

So you're a Gates fan, then?

BTW ... what is "the course", exactly? Is it as crystal and immutable as "Mission Accomplished"?

Read it. (http://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Life-Emerald-City-Inside/dp/1400044871)

The insurgency and violence within Iraq is astounding, and has not diminished within the time American forces have been there.

Pay attention to yourself. You make good points.

Read it. (http://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Life-Emerald-City-Inside/dp/1400044871)

Good ref. *bows*

So, a book reference (I've got no money to buy it, and I'm currently far behind on my reading, so that's not going to happen, btw) and a vague affirmation that one of my points is correct, with the obvious insinuation that the poster disagrees with the conclusion I've drawn from it, while not stating why.

Great. Love the discourse, here.

Great. Love the discourse, here.
Well, no one's said "Your momma!" yet.

Well, no one's said "Your momma!" yet.

As if we would be so uncouth.

btw, Nermid...


YER MOMMA!


oh, come on. we all saw it coming, and we all could have guessed it would have been me.

As if we would be so uncouth.

btw, Nermid...


YER MOMMA!


oh, come on. we all saw it coming, and we all could have guessed it would have been me.

And the 20th/21st edges EVER closer .... ;)

If we pull out, the Iraqi government will collapse, the insurgency will take over, and all that will have come out of the war will be the loss of thousands of American lives, and the creation of a chaotic state full of anti-American sentiment (both from the groups we've alienated by our presence, and those we would alienate via abandonment) and more than likely, a massive genocide (Sunnis, Shiites, whatever the hell the other groups are, I don't care...and this genocide would, obviously, be considered our fault. Further, any genocide calls for international intervention, which means troops would be coming right back. We would be trading American troops' lives for UN peacekeeping forces' lives, while allowing God-only-knows how many avoidable deaths in the interim)

My rant on the subject:

I'm not saying we should "stay the course," because the fact that the attacks upon American occupying troops has stayed consistent and/or increased (whatever. NOT decreased, as it should) is evidence enough that something is wrong with what we're doing. However, the "get the hell out of Dodge" mentality seems like a bad idea, as well. Perhaps, instead of caving into absolutes (we go ahead EXACTLY as we have been) and extremes (we leave COMPLETELY), we could take a moderate approach...You know, rebuild infrastructure, gradually (not over one year. We've still got troops in pretty much everywhere we've gone to militarily over the last century. Why would Iraq be different?) remove troops, and petition for help from the international community (France, Iran, and Venezuela make a lot of noise, but they've yet to actually commit to any action but whining)...


Well yes, the problem is, a good many of us have been saying that in the first god damned place. Now the wonderful administration is gotten us stuck in a situation where things aren't improving, people are dying, and if we leave shit goes to hell. We're not stuck in a situation where if we stay we die, and if we leave we screw a lot of innocent people, and lose 3000 american lives to accomplish nothing.

Generally what you say is a good idea, and is perhaps the most viable option. It bothers me, and many others, that while it occured to some dude on a forum (no offense) it didn't appear to occur to our leadership.

Instead of a reasonable plan for success we got Bush's strategy for victory which looks something like:

1) get to Iraq
2) shock and awe
3) ???
4) freedom

And the 20th/21st edges EVER closer .... ;)

ugh...don't remind me. first final tomorrow. I'll tg you in a hot sec.

Instead of a reasonable plan for success we got Bush's strategy for victory which looks something like:

1) get to Iraq
2) shock and awe
3) ???
4) freedom
Emphasis on the ??? in point 3.
If Clarke is to be believed, a huge emphasis as well on point 1.
As presidency goes, the greatest emphasis is STILL on part 3, but as a natural consequence of the administration's colossal igno-arrogance, there is a hefty emphasis on point 2.

I might have to take issue with you on point 4 though ... lest you qualify it with "freedom of corporations from taxes and responsibility".

ugh...don't remind me. first final tomorrow. I'll tg you in a hot sec.
Righto!

Good luck on the final.
*bows*
I'll probably reply on the morrow.

a vague affirmation that one of my points is correct, with the obvious insinuation that the poster disagrees with the conclusion I've drawn from it, while not stating why.

"has not diminished within the time American forces have been there" + keep forces there indefinitely = not very good idea.

And changing the lines on the flag or the color of the uniform is hardly a solution - not to mention the fact that no one in the international community is stupid enough to commit troops to a quagmire and a bloodbath.

I've been saying that we should get the hell out of Iraq since late 2003.

Every time I brought it up, people said, "Don't you realize it'll lead to chaos? A bloodbath? Civil war? Don't you realize that we must keep forces there, for things to get better?"

Well, okay. Now it's late 2006 - three years. We have our chaos. We have our bloodbath. We have our civil war. And we have thousands of US troops dead and perhaps 600,000 Iraqis also dead - not to mention hundreds of billions of dollars wasted, al-Qaeda strengthened, the threat of nuclear terrorism and proliferation intensified, and so on. The majority of Iraqis want us to leave, and have for a long time. Things are not better. They're worse.

Does anyone really, honestly, believe that we're going to make this any better by staying even longer?