NationStates Jolt Archive

Here's a nice little debate:

What is Liberty?

Is it the right to vote in electons? Is it the right to live your life the way you want to without any infringements? Is it the security of stability? Is it the right to voice your opinion? And to what extent is it possible to be free?

I personally feel liberty is a life without bounds... But I'm not so sure as to whether complete Liberty is a good thing.

Here's a nice little debate:

What is Liberty?

Roughly: the freedom required to be rationally self-directed in activities that are peaceful and productive of human values. Such freedom does not include activities that encroach on the lives of others.

Is it the right to vote in electons?

No.

Is it the right to live your life the way you want to without any infringements?

Close, but no.

Is it the security of stability?

No.

Is it the right to voice your opinion?

It may include this, but is hardly limited to this.

freedom from tyranny.

True liberty is the right to do as you wish so long as it does not infringe upon the rights of another. It is the right to be legally equal with all citizens, the right to vote with equal weight given, and the right to be free from others interfering with your liberty. Anything else is a liberty that has been maimed and mauled by the misguided intentions of others.

the right to vote with equal weight given,

Assuming the vote actually has a meaningful effect on what laws are passed or who holds office, voting is actually the antithesis of liberty.

liberty is one of those buzzwords used to described what perceived savages live without much like the word civilised

"Freedom is the freedom to say two plus two make four. When this is granted, all else follows."

Too lazy to come up with my own right now.

Liberty is freedom. It is what we are fighting for in the middle east. We love freedom, and the terrorists hate freedom. They loathe liberty, they despise self-determination, and they will stop at nothing to take our freedom away.

But the terrorists are not invincible. There is a way that they can be stopped. Terrorists' aggressiveness stems from the oil that they possess. If we remove the oil from the middle east, and place it somewhere safe, like the US, then the terrorists will become passive liberty-lovers, and all will be right with the world.

Assuming the vote actually has a meaningful effect on what laws are passed or who holds office, voting is actually the antithesis of liberty.
If liberty = individual freedom, then yes. Democracy is antithetical to individual freedom.

Assuming the vote actually has a meaningful effect on what laws are passed or who holds office, voting is actually the antithesis of liberty.

I agree. Freedom is the ability to do whatever you want so long as you don't hamper anyone else's ability. The "right" to vote is a collectivist "right" to take away freedom from others. There is no natural "right" for the combined voters to say who can and can not get married, or to set a minimum value at which one may price his own labor.

Liberty is that feeling you get after raping a llama.

Main Entry: lib·er·ty
Pronunciation: 'li-b&r-tE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French liberté, from Latin libertat-, libertas, from liber free -- more at LIBERAL
1 : the quality or state of being free: a : the power to do as one pleases b : freedom from physical restraint c : freedom from arbitrary or despotic control d : the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges e : the power of choice

But of course the defenition of liberty changes depending on weather your Bush or an Arab

Liberty is not, as Libertarians would have you believe, the right to do as you please but the ability to do so.

Liberty is not, as Libertarians would have you believe, the right to do as you please but the ability to do so.

erm....does that mean I can fly?

Read "On Liberty" by John Stuart Mill. Unless you're talking about Marxian liberty, which is a totally different concept, not really related to Western liberty.

Read "On Liberty" by John Stuart Mill. Unless you're talking about Marxian liberty, which is a totally different concept, not really related to Western liberty.

American liberalism and European liberalism are very different so there is no western liberalism

American liberalism and European liberalism are very different so there is no western liberalism
Not really. There is a very large difference between "liberalism" (which is considered political doctrine), and "liberty" which is considered a philosophic idea.

Furthermore, there is more in common with American and European liberalism then there are differences. The fact there are differences doesn't make them significantly separate in the grand theme of things.

erm....does that mean I can fly?

You're totally right if you're talking literally but since the OP could just look 'liberty' up in a dictionary I was talking about what people mean when they talk about liberty and freedoms politically. Maybe I should have said the liberty to do something is worthless unless you have the the ability to do so.

Furthermore, there is more in common with American and European liberalism then there are differences. The fact there are differences doesn't make them significantly separate in the grand theme of things.

American liberalism is based on the key idea of rising and falling based on your own merit something which Europe does not put emphasis on

American liberalism is based on the key idea of rising and falling based on your own merit something which Europe does not put emphasis on
...it may not put an emphasis on it, but it is still there implicitly. Again, Western liberalism may not be monolithic, but it is pretty damn cohesive.

There are two types pf liberty, positive and negative. Positive liberty is often described as freedom to achieve certain ends, while negative liberty is described as from external coercion.