NationStates Jolt Archive

It is a bit of a long post, sorry for that. I might not be writing too well either. It is late up here.

In 1940, one of the most intolerant and unjustifiably violent nations invaded my country. When my grandmother woke up the soldiers of the “18.Armee Oberkommando” were marching through her little village. In other villages the soldiers had not yet arrived but hers was on a then fairly important road into the rest of the province. Their boots could very well be heard by bystanders. Groups of people who thought they saw there dream come true or those who thought better times were marching with them or saluting the soldier. Although they were neither shooting nor killing, at least not in her village, it meant to start of a new era for the people. Life especially changed for the Jewish family who lived just across the street. They were not quick nor convinced enough to flee or hide.

In the years of occupation of my country both sides of my family resisted the Nazis. At my mother’s mom’s home there were people who had to hide for the Germans. She herself was too young to join the resistance. My father’s dad joined the resistance. He got in close contact where he had to flee for a German patrol. Finally, he was betrayed. He was dragged out of his house and deported to concentration camp Vught. Although the Jews he hid at his home were deported and gassed their children were alerted soon enough and they moved to the USA after the war.

There was great suffering during those years. But I am thankful my ancestors decided to resist an intolerant and hateful regime.

Though. It is very unfortunate that the terrible crimes committed during World War II, of which some my grandfather has witnessed personally, have been partially abused for the justification of the founding of a discriminating and aggressive nation called Israel.

Zionist Israel occupies land which is not rightfully theirs. In fact, none is. No matter who lived there for the last hundreds or thousands of years it is wrong to design a nation somewhere where a local people already live and justify its existence on religious grounds or terrible crimes like the holocaust. It is wrong to just design a state and encourage as many people to go to it and give them enough money to defend their “rightful” land.

Israel has built a wall which ignores the green line. Which on itself supports the existence of the current Israel anyway, but the border is a lesser evil than the border of the wall. The economic influences of the already impoverished Palestinians have been dramatic.

Any critics on this particular nation which has no respect for human life (proven by the enormous civilian death toll during the Israeli-Hezbollah conflict) are dismissed as being right-wing extremist or anti-Semitic.

After 9/11 more people have been siding besides this nation because they see them as an ally in the collective struggle against the cultures which are predominantly Islamic.

I support a strong Palestine. A strong Palestine where the Jews, Muslims, Christians and Whateverists have the same rights and equal values.

I am convinced that the majority of the people in Israel are not evil. But I believe their government and their nation is. I don’t see it as a friend or ally against Muslims. I am getting sick of the anti-Islamic “integration is necessary” mentality on the rise. A mentality abused by politicians to undermine actual problems in my nation and in the world. This hatred and intolerance is not limited to Muslims, but to people with a skin color or different religion.

The fear for Islam is very much present in my society. About 49% of the people in my country say they feel uncomfortable when a Moroccan is around (source: GPD/Motivaction, Contact Group Islam, University of Nijmegen, National Bureau against Racial Discrimination). Over 36% consider foreigners to be lazy and 17% say they sometimes have “racist tendencies”.

More interestingly, 65% of the Europeans admit they have little knowledge of Islam (source: GPD/Motivaction, European Social Survey). It pretty much proves where this Islamocriticism emerges from. It emerges from intolerance, hatred and the wrong believe which makes people think they are in a position to represent an entire culture, or nationality or race. After all, Islamophobes and Xenophobes tend to think in the “us” against “them”. That’s something I hate, because this means I am “us”. And I feel no association with them.

Meanwhile politicians who support a law against more mosques, who support insane proposals like banning foreign languages from the streets and want people to do a test in “our” history, are gaining ground. I am convinced of their incapability of ruling. They mix populist ideas with xenophobia to attract intolerant voters.

It is not the government’s rights to decide how many places of worship exist. It is the government’s duty to see each citizen individually. It is the duty of politicians to be nationalists, to want the best for their country. And creating unneeded tensions with the “our culture is like this so you better adapt to us” kind of thinking is not the best for a nation. It creates an atmosphere where less people will feel comfortable to live.

I wish my nation would stop think of itself as “tolerant”. I believe that at this point we, if there exists a “we”, are far from tolerant.

I am proud of my family’s history as resistance fighters. And I put my family’s and friends’ (amongst whom some really cool Muslims) interests before the interests of “my” culture.

I do not share a culture with Islamophobes and Xenophobes. They live their own sub-culture, they often come from different social backgrounds, wear their kind of clothes and have their kind of view on life. They do not represent me.

And to get back to Israel. Supporting a country like that because you believe Arabs are taking over your country is not nationalist. Your radical support for such a nation which is known to commit terrible crimes against Palestinian and Arab people will only divide us back home because people will become fed up and annoyed to see how a nation they live in supports an apartheid system and an occupation regime.

You do not want the better for your country if your plea for hatred and segregation along racial and religious lines. A nationalist sides with countrymen and women of any color against those who want to divide our society: radical Israel supporters, Islamic fundamentalists and right-wing radicals.

"We" should not allow tolerance to die now. Resist like your grandparents did.

Why do you hate freedom so? :(








:D

http://limewoody.wordpress.com/files/2006/04/aw_jeez_not_this_shit_again2.jpg

Though to be fair, this thread seems less moronic than the others.

It is a bit of a long post, sorry for that. I might not be writing too well either. It is late up here.

In 1940, one of the most intolerant and unjustifiably violent nations invaded my country. When my grandmother woke up the soldiers of the “18.Armee Oberkommando” were marching through her little village. In other villages the soldiers had not yet arrived but hers was on a then fairly important road into the rest of the province. Their boots could very well be heard by bystanders. Groups of people who thought they saw there dream come true or those who thought better times were marching with them or saluting the soldier. Although they were neither shooting nor killing, at least not in her village, it meant to start of a new era for the people. Life especially changed for the Jewish family who lived just across the street. They were not quick nor convinced enough to flee or hide.

In the years of occupation of my country both sides of my family resisted the Nazis. At my mother’s mom’s home there were people who had to hide for the Germans. She herself was too young to join the resistance. My father’s dad joined the resistance. He got in close contact where he had to flee for a German patrol. Finally, he was betrayed. He was dragged out of his house and deported to concentration camp Vught. Although the Jews he hid at his home were deported and gassed their children were alerted soon enough and they moved to the USA after the war.

There was great suffering during those years. But I am thankful my ancestors decided to resist an intolerant and hateful regime.

Though. It is very unfortunate that the terrible crimes committed during World War II, of which some my grandfather has witnessed personally, have been partially abused for the justification of the founding of a discriminating and aggressive nation called Israel.

Zionist Israel occupies land which is not rightfully theirs. In fact, none is. No matter who lived there for the last hundreds or thousands of years it is wrong to design a nation somewhere where a local people already live and justify its existence on religious grounds or terrible crimes like the holocaust. It is wrong to just design a state and encourage as many people to go to it and give them enough money to defend their “rightful” land.

Israel has built a wall which ignores the green line. Which on itself supports the existence of the current Israel anyway, but the border is a lesser evil than the border of the wall. The economic influences of the already impoverished Palestinians have been dramatic.

Any critics on this particular nation which has no respect for human life (proven by the enormous civilian death toll during the Israeli-Hezbollah conflict) are dismissed as being right-wing extremist or anti-Semitic.

After 9/11 more people have been siding besides this nation because they see them as an ally in the collective struggle against the cultures which are predominantly Islamic.

I support a strong Palestine. A strong Palestine where the Jews, Muslims, Christians and Whateverists have the same rights and equal values.

I am convinced that the majority of the people in Israel are not evil. But I believe their government and their nation is. I don’t see it as a friend or ally against Muslims. I am getting sick of the anti-Islamic “integration is necessary” mentality on the rise. A mentality abused by politicians to undermine actual problems in my nation and in the world. This hatred and intolerance is not limited to Muslims, but to people with a skin color or different religion.

The fear for Islam is very much present in my society. About 49% of the people in my country say they feel uncomfortable when a Moroccan is around (source: GPD/Motivaction, Contact Group Islam, University of Nijmegen, National Bureau against Racial Discrimination). Over 36% consider foreigners to be lazy and 17% say they sometimes have “racist tendencies”.

More interestingly, 65% of the Europeans admit they have little knowledge of Islam (source: GPD/Motivaction, European Social Survey). It pretty much proves where this Islamocriticism emerges from. It emerges from intolerance, hatred and the wrong believe which makes people think they are in a position to represent an entire culture, or nationality or race. After all, Islamophobes and Xenophobes tend to think in the “us” against “them”. That’s something I hate, because this means I am “us”. And I feel no association with them.

Meanwhile politicians who support a law against more mosques, who support insane proposals like banning foreign languages from the streets and want people to do a test in “our” history, are gaining ground. I am convinced of their incapability of ruling. They mix populist ideas with xenophobia to attract intolerant voters.

It is not the government’s rights to decide how many places of worship exist. It is the government’s duty to see each citizen individually. It is the duty of politicians to be nationalists, to want the best for their country. And creating unneeded tensions with the “our culture is like this so you better adapt to us” kind of thinking is not the best for a nation. It creates an atmosphere where less people will feel comfortable to live.

I wish my nation would stop think of itself as “tolerant”. I believe that at this point we, if there exists a “we”, are far from tolerant.

I am proud of my family’s history as resistance fighters. And I put my family’s and friends’ (amongst whom some really cool Muslims) interests before the interests of “my” culture.

I do not share a culture with Islamophobes and Xenophobes. They live their own sub-culture, they often come from different social backgrounds, wear their kind of clothes and have their kind of view on life. They do not represent me.

And to get back to Israel. Supporting a country like that because you believe Arabs are taking over your country is not nationalist. Your radical support for such a nation which is known to commit terrible crimes against Palestinian and Arab people will only divide us back home because people will become fed up and annoyed to see how a nation they live in supports an apartheid system and an occupation regime.

You do not want the better for your country if your plea for hatred and segregation along racial and religious lines. A nationalist sides with countrymen and women of any color against those who want to divide our society: radical Israel supporters, Islamic fundamentalists and right-wing radicals.

"We" should not allow tolerance to die now. Resist like your grandparents did.

Couldn't have put it better myself

I support a strong Palestine. A strong Palestine where the Jews, Muslims, Christians and Whateverists have the same rights and equal values.

Pfft.

Not even the Palestinians support a strong Palestine...otherwise they wouldn't be voting in reactionary political elements that ensure further isolation, and then be fighting amongst themselves when that course of action causes problems.

I'll start taking Palestine supporters seriously when the Palestinians start taking themselves and their cause more seriously.

These types of arguements often make me think of people blaming an auto manufacturer because a driver crashed into a post one night.

Zionist Israel occupies land which is not rightfully theirs. In fact, none is. No matter who lived there for the last hundreds or thousands of years it is wrong to design a nation somewhere where a local people already live and justify its existence on religious grounds or terrible crimes like the holocaust. It is wrong to just design a state and encourage as many people to go to it and give them enough money to defend their “rightful” land.

There's always been a significant Jewish population in the Middle East. When the Aliyah began Palestine was sparsely inhabited so there was plenty of room for the Jews to move in. When the partition plan was drawn up the designated Jewish state had a Jewish majority so it was self determination.

Israel has built a wall which ignores the green line. Which on itself supports the existence of the current Israel anyway, but the border is a lesser evil than the border of the wall. The economic influences of the already impoverished Palestinians have been dramatic.

If the Palestinians would stop murdering Israelis and electing terrorist groups to government then there'd be no need for a wall.

Any critics on this particular nation which has no respect for human life (proven by the enormous civilian death toll during the Israeli-Hezbollah conflict) are dismissed as being right-wing extremist or anti-Semitic.

Israel only targeted civilian areas when Hezbollah used those civilians as human shields, a practice which is outlawed by international law. While I agree that Israel was heavy handed in Lebanon they had every right to defend themselves.

After 9/11 more people have been siding besides this nation because they see them as an ally in the collective struggle against the cultures which are predominantly Islamic.

No, they're siding with Israel because they're beginning to understand what it's like to have their civilian centres attacked by Muslim terrorists. It's called empathy.

I support a strong Palestine. A strong Palestine where the Jews, Muslims, Christians and Whateverists have the same rights and equal values.

Certainly, the Palestinians should have their own state. They've been offered one on several occasions but they've always refused and returned to terrorism.

I am convinced that the majority of the people in Israel are not evil. But I believe their government and their nation is. I don’t see it as a friend or ally against Muslims. I am getting sick of the anti-Islamic “integration is necessary” mentality on the rise. A mentality abused by politicians to undermine actual problems in my nation and in the world. This hatred and intolerance is not limited to Muslims, but to people with a skin color or different religion.

Why is it evil to expect people to integrate?

The fear for Islam is very much present in my society. About 49% of the people in my country say they feel uncomfortable when a Moroccan is around (source: GPD/Motivaction, Contact Group Islam, University of Nijmegen, National Bureau against Racial Discrimination). Over 36% consider foreigners to be lazy and 17% say they sometimes have “racist tendencies”.

More interestingly, 65% of the Europeans admit they have little knowledge of Islam (source: GPD/Motivaction, European Social Survey). It pretty much proves where this Islamocriticism emerges from. It emerges from intolerance, hatred and the wrong believe which makes people think they are in a position to represent an entire culture, or nationality or race. After all, Islamophobes and Xenophobes tend to think in the “us” against “them”. That’s something I hate, because this means I am “us”. And I feel no association with them.

Meanwhile politicians who support a law against more mosques, who support insane proposals like banning foreign languages from the streets and want people to do a test in “our” history, are gaining ground. I am convinced of their incapability of ruling. They mix populist ideas with xenophobia to attract intolerant voters.

Agreed for the most part.

It is not the government’s rights to decide how many places of worship exist.

If the government has to grant planning permission or use public funds then it certainly is their right.

It is the government’s duty to see each citizen individually. It is the duty of politicians to be nationalists, to want the best for their country. And creating unneeded tensions with the “our culture is like this so you better adapt to us” kind of thinking is not the best for a nation. It creates an atmosphere where less people will feel comfortable to live.

To an extent, yes. However, if a different culture is intolerant then I don't see why it should be accepted as equal.

And to get back to Israel. Supporting a country like that because you believe Arabs are taking over your country is not nationalist.

I don't think I've ever encountered anyone who's supported Israel for this reason.

Your radical support for such a nation which is known to commit terrible crimes against Palestinian and Arab people

Pure, unadulterated bullshit. It is the Palestinians and their allies who have launched genocidal wars, it is the Palestinians who have made the deliberate murder of civilians a cornerstone of their strategy, it is the Palestinians who slaughter children to further their political ends, and it is the Palestinians who have rejected many generous peace deals.

will only divide us back home because people will become fed up and annoyed to see how a nation they live in supports an apartheid system and an occupation regime.

More bullshit. There are plenty of arab MPs in Israel and Israeli-Arabs have the same rights as Israeli-Jews.

"We" should not allow tolerance to die now. Resist like your grandparents did.

And so you want to dismantle the only stable, tolerant democracy in the Middle East to further this goal? Cute.

wow how many jewsih/israel threads can jolt support at one time.

wow how many jewsih/israel threads can jolt support at one time.

Not much more I fear.

There's.........al? Cute.

I mean there they are, operating a semi-apartheid state outside their own borders, building colonies and theres these horrible Arab people who just don't like it.....Who could have thunk it, I ask ye.....

I mean there they are, operating a semi-apartheid state outside their own borders, building colonies and theres these horrible Arab people who just don't like it.....Who could have thunk it, I ask ye.....

Yes, all those Arabs did was to launch a series of brutal, genocidal wars against Israel. What's the matter? Can't the Jews take a joke? :rolleyes:

Israel has withdrawn from many of their territories in exchange for peace. They returned the Sinai (along with all its oil) to Egypt in exchange for this peace. They offered to return the Golan Heights in exchange for peace and were refused by Syria. They offered the Palestinians the whole of the West Bank, 95% of Gaza, most of the Old City of Jerusalem and $30 billion dollars; all Israel wanted in exchange was peace. Even Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia told Arafat that "If we lose this opportunity, it is not going to be a tragedy, it is going to be a crime". Arafat walked away without even making a counter-proposal.

What else can you expect Israel do? The Palestinians don't want peace. When the Palestinians want a state of their own more than they want to murder the Jews then they'll get one.

Yes, all those Arabs did was to launch a series of brutal, genocidal wars against Israel. What's the matter? Can't the Jews take a joke? :rolleyes:

Israel has withdrawn from many of their territories in exchange for peace. They returned the Sinai (along with all its oil) to Egypt in exchange for this peace. They offered to return the Golan Heights in exchange for peace and were refused by Syria. They offered the Palestinians the whole of the West Bank, 95% of Gaza, most of the Old City of Jerusalem and $30 billion dollars; all Israel wanted in exchange was peace. Even Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia told Arafat that "If we lose this opportunity, it is not going to be a tragedy, it is going to be a crime". Arafat walked away without even making a counter-proposal.

What else can you expect Israel do? The Palestinians don't want peace. When the Palestinians want a state of their own more than they want to murder the Jews then they'll get one.

What the palestinians want is Isreal. Unfortunantly for them, they're not going to get it. The sooner they realise this, the quicker they can start working on a real solution.

Israel is an apartheid state and it is here to stay. Change the former, don't even try to change the latter.

I wish my nation would stop think of itself as “tolerant”. I believe that at this point we, if there exists a “we”, are far from tolerant.We aren't tolerant, we just don't care what our neighbours do.

Israel only targeted civilian areas when Hezbollah used those civilians as human shields, a practice which is outlawed by international law. While I agree that Israel was heavy handed in Lebanon they had every right to defend themselves.

The first attack on Rafic Hariri International Airport was an attack on a civilian building. The Hezbollah wasn’t using any civilians as human shields. In fact I am pretty sure the Hezbollah did not own that airport.

No, they're siding with Israel because they're beginning to understand what it's like to have their civilian centres attacked by Muslim terrorists. It's called empathy.

In my country more people have been the victim of right-winged extremists than of Muslim terrorists. Don’t make one nation’s fight everyone’s fight.

Why is it evil to expect people to integrate?

It depends on how far you want to push integration. Do you think new arriving adults should be given lessons in what kind of laws we have and in the national language, fine. But forcing adult immigrants to be aware of “our” history by giving them a test about it goes to far. And if I am correct we are going to get some kind of “Dutchness” test for new arriving people. That goes too far if you ask me.

If the government has to grant planning permission or use public funds then it certainly is their right.

I am talking about a total prohibition of growth of mosques, while the same law will not apply to synagogues or churches. The government is clearly choosing sides in such a scenario. And this is what some of the populist right wing want.

Yes, all those Arabs did was to launch a series of brutal, genocidal wars against Israel. .

"Genocidal"? News to me. But then again hyping up the oppositions intentions tends to be par for the course.


Israel has... a counter-proposal..

You refer to the 2000 negotiations, yet conveniently ignore 2002.


What else can you expect Israel do? The Palestinians don't want peace. .

Why has Israel been building colonies in the West Bank and trying to annex Arab East Jerusalem if all they want is "peace"?

We aren't tolerant, we just don't care what our neighbours do.

I agree....

It depends on how far you want to push integration. Do you think new arriving adults should be given lessons in what kind of laws we have and in the national language, fine. But forcing adult immigrants to be aware of “our” history by giving them a test about it goes to far. And if I am correct we are going to get some kind of “Dutchness” test for new arriving people. That goes too far if you ask me.



a small nation shouldn't have to lose it's character or culture either, Netherlands is not Australia, USA or Canada where there is a mixing of cultures that forms a new culture.....There is a unique dutch culture that deserves to be preserved, protecting that uniqueness from other cultures is not wrong...those newcomers should integrate and accept their new home's culture as theirs, if a "dutchness" test is required so be it, even in Canada any new residents must pass a Canadian test to qualify for citizenship......

it is the Palestinians who have made the deliberate murder of civilians a cornerstone of their strategy, it is the Palestinians who slaughter children to further their political ends,
The Israelis have done the exact same thing.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1516362,00.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

And so you want to dismantle the only stable, tolerant democracy in the Middle East to further this goal? Cute.

Yes, the stable, tolerant democracy that shoots children in the face while they sleep, bombs countries attempting to start civil wars, sprays Bedouin camps with pesticide, and elected a terrorist as their first PM.

"Genocidal"? News to me. But then again hyping up the oppositions intentions tends to be par for the course.



You refer to the 2000 negotiations, yet conveniently ignore 2002.



Why has Israel been building colonies in the West Bank and trying to annex Arab East Jerusalem if all they want is "peace"?

So in 1948, when the Egyptian government declared its intention to fight a war of annihalation and kill every last Jew in Israel, they were really just kidding right?

The Dutch culture and history shall and will be preserved by the people in this nation. And it will change by the people who live here today, it will not die.

The white Dutch control most of the wealth and most of the power. So they really do not have much to fear. They have plenty of wealth to promote and invest in their culture.