NationStates Jolt Archive

Turkey released it a little while ago (about a month) saying that if we were to go to war with Iran they will invade northern Iraq with full force...I'll see if I can find an article on it for you all, but our longtime ally Turkey( allied since the Cold War) ready to go to war with us, well a country we are occupying, thoughts?

Turkey released it a little while ago (about a month) saying that if we were to go to war with Iran they will invade northern Iraq with full force...I'll see if I can find an article on it for you all, but our longtime ally Turkey( allied since the Cold War) ready to go to war with us, well a country we are occupying, thoughts?

Rule 1: You can't trust anyone, anywhere, ever.

Rule 1: You can't trust anyone, anywhere, ever.

Bunny rabbits?

Rule 1: You can't trust anyone, anywhere, ever.

I don't trust you. I think I'll disregard that advice.

Rule 1: You can't trust anyone, anywhere, ever.

especially not when you keep screwing people over as a matter of state policy.

Bring it on. We'll beat their asses back to Istanbul.

Bring it on. We'll beat their asses back to Istanbul.

Yes, this could be a good thing. Eastern Thrace goes back to Greece.

*watches as NATO collapses* I think I will call BS on this it goes completely against Turkeys objective of joining the E.U and being accepted into the western camp not to mention being suicide for anyone who crosses that Iranian border

Bring it on. We'll beat their asses back to Istanbul.You can't even beat a few Afghani or Iraqi asses. How do you want to beat a real country and NATO member?

Rule #2. When you post the the thread, post the link so you won't get trounced by people asking for the link. Where is the link?

You can't even beat a few Afghani or Iraqi asses. How do you want to beat a real country and NATO member?

You have know idea how different conventional warfare and occupation/guerrilla warfare are, do you?

You can't even beat a few Afghani or Iraqi asses. How do you want to beat a real country and NATO member?

Well, for one that's a guerilla war rather than a conventional one. We annihilated the Iraqi armed forces in a few weeks. The only reason we're not doing well there is because we had a mind-bogglingly incompetent secretary of defense running the show and a massive shortage of troops that went against the strategic assessments of virtually every successful military commander in the US armed forces.

We'd demolish entire their army, navy, and air force in weeks and occupy Istanbul in a couple of months, with their entire regime arrested or killed in that same timeframe. NATO's not going to back them because they're the aggressor and we have every right to take that kind of action. Besides, they are nothing more than an outdated NATO nuclear missle site anyways...it's not like they contribute anything of value now.

I sincerely doubt this is the case.

That being said, if so it is one more sign of the stupidity of invading Iraq.

You can't even beat a few Afghani or Iraqi asses. How do you want to beat a real country and NATO member?

We owned the Iraqis in a few days. The turkish millitary would be a bit harder, but not much. What people seem to be unable to get through thier heads is that on any tactical or millitary level we are winning. It is just strategically we are being killed. Against turkey, they have a proper millitary that we can have some fun with. F-22s and M1s weren't made for driving around streets waiting to hit AT mines.

You can't even beat a few Afghani or Iraqi asses. How do you want to beat a real country and NATO member?

Considering we conquered both nations in a matter of months? A nation with a traditional military like Turkey would be EASIER. The US military excels in target rich environments, its when the targets are ill-defined such as in Afghanistan, that there is difficulty. And Turkey would be instantly kicked out of NATO and pounced on by the other NATO members

You have know idea how different conventional warfare and occupation/guerrilla warfare are, do you?And you still believe in something like "conventional" warfare, don't you? Don't you think, the world has by now learned how the US can be beaten?

And you still believe in something like "conventional" warfare, don't you?

Cavalary for the win! :p

Considering we conquered both nations in a matter of months? A nation with a traditional military like Turkey would be EASIER. The US military excels in target rich environments, its when the targets are ill-defined such as in Afghanistan, that there is difficulty. And Turkey would be licked out of NATO and pounced on by the other NATO membersYou conquered those? When? Wouldn't that require you had control over those at any time?

We owned the Iraqis in a few days. The turkish millitary would be a bit harder, but not much.

Turkey is a modern western-ized nation that is equipped with western equipment, knows all are tactics and has a terrain that consists of mostly dessert and mountainous not to mention the fact that it could overrun Cyprus fairly easily and has the greatest chokepoint in history

And you still believe in something like "conventional" warfare, don't you?

Do I believe that two nations could go to war and use their national armies against each other in said war? Yes.

Or was Saddam's invasion of Kuwait as well as the Falklands war just a figment of my imagination?

You conquered those?
Yes.
When?
We conquered Afghanistan in 2001 and Iraq in 2003.

Wouldn't that require you had control over those at any time?
No.




To get into the situation we are in now, "insurgents against occupiers", REQUIRES that we conquered them first which we did. We drove into their capital in ~20 days, their governments ceased functionality, we decimated their military and OCCUPIED their capitals.

pounced on by the other NATO members

the hell it would Turkey has the second largest standing army in NATO after Europe and we aren’t talking under equipped peasants here

the hell it would Turkey has the second largest standing army in NATO after Europe and we aren’t talking under equipped peasants here

Except that European NATO combined would have an armed for considerably larger than the USA's.

To get into the situation we are in now, "insurgents against occupiers", REQUIRES that we conquered them first which we did. We drove into their capital in ~20 days, their governments ceased functionality, we decimated their military and OCCUPIED their capitals.

I think your dismissing the help you got from the locals

Except that European NATO combined would have an armed for considerably larger than the USA's.

source that doesn't include Turkey?

source that doesn't include Turkey?

You don't need a source. Use common sense. If Germany, France and the UK used their entire armies, they're have 1500000.

we aren’t talking under equipped peasants here

Not under-equipped, but not especially well equipped. It's main Fighter is the F-16. Nice, but vs. a F-22, or mabye even a F-15, its history. And thier navy really isn't a match for ours. On land, sure the have Leo2A4s, but thats going to be a nice piece of molten crud by the time a javilen, hellfie, or a-10 finds it.

And, would greece do anything? I think they would go against turkey, but i really have no idea.

Not under-equipped, but not especially well equipped. It's main Fighter is the F-16. Nice, but vs. a F-22, or mabye even a F-15, its history. And thier navy really isn't a match for ours. On land, sure the have Leo2A4s, but thats going to be a nice piece of molten crud by the time a javilen, hellfie, or a-10 finds it.

And, would greece do anything? I think they would go against turkey, but i really have no idea.

Yes, many greeks will see it as the golden opportunity. And take over Cyprus and retake Eastern Thrace and Constantinople and incorporate them as greek territores/municipalities. Just to hope if the shit hits the fan that some level-headed Greek just lets the US and Turkey spar it out instead of trying to realise a Greater Greece and retaking historical territories amidst the chaos.

Yes, many greeks will see it as the golden opportunity. And take over Cyprus and retake Eastern Thrace and Constantinople and incorporate them as greek territores/municipalities. Just to hope if the shit hits the fan that some level-headed Greek just lets the US and Turkey spar it out instead of trying to realise a Greater Greece and retaking historical territories amidst the chaos.In the case that the US attacks Iran the US will have no forces left to also deal with Turkey.

Did anyone think of turkeys arming themselves when they read the thread title?

Did anyone think of turkeys arming themselves when they read the thread title?I hope they will some day. American thanksgiving is a disgusting tradition.

Except that European NATO combined would have an armed for considerably larger than the USA's.

However,not all of NATO's forces would willingly throw themselves at a country trying to get into the EU.

I hope they will some day. American thanksgiving is a disgusting tradition.

What? How is a bunch of families getting togther, enjoying a meal, and giving thanks for what they have a disgusting tradtion?

Yes, many greeks will see it as the golden opportunity. And take over Cyprus and retake Eastern Thrace and Constantinople and incorporate them as greek territores/municipalities. Just to hope if the shit hits the fan that some level-headed Greek just lets the US and Turkey spar it out instead of trying to realise a Greater Greece and retaking historical territories amidst the chaos.

Ok....what?
Greece is now a power-hungry maniacal country,bent on domination?

I hope they will some day. American thanksgiving is a disgusting tradition.

DAMN those happily familys.Damn them all to the bloody bowels of hell!

Ok....what?
Greece is now a power-hungry maniacal country,bent on domination?

IIRC, Greece and Turkey hate each other with a passion..something about some useless little island somewhere.....

IIRC, Greece and Turkey hate each other with a passion..something about some useless little island somewhere.....

I know,but neither really want to go in a full scale war.My point was that Greece is not some mad nation who wants to create some kind of Fourth Reich.If you get me.
EDIT:Oh,and Cyprus really isn't useless.It's a vital staging point,right now a lot of British troops are posted there.

What? How is a bunch of families getting togther, enjoying a meal, and giving thanks for what they have a disgusting tradtion?thanksgiving is also the symbol of WASP intrusion into america and the slaughter of millions of indigenous people.

Ok....what?
Greece is now a power-hungry maniacal country, bent on domination?No. Greece is not the US, nor any part thereof.

thanksgiving is also the symbol of WASP intrusion into america and the slaughter of millions of indigenous people.

Yes,thanksgiving stands for slaughter of millions of people.Americans and their bloodthirsty traditions,honestly.

No. Greece is not the US, nor any part thereof.

So now the US is bent on domination?
OK,so they do go very crazy on the whole "democracy to the masses!" thing.But I don't think they want the whole world under their contol.Not even the US is that bad.

I'm going to call bullshit on this.

We've seen no source, I've heard absolutely nothing about it in the news, and a number of online friends of mine from another game are Turkish, and none of them seem to know anything about it.

stupid thread, speculation by a bunch of wannabe generals who live for war and destruction.....US will not attack Turkey (a moderate Muslim nation), NATO will not allow an attack on a fellow state, Turkey will not attack otherwise it will lose acceptance into the EU.

stupid thread, speculation by a bunch of wannabe generals who live for war and destruction.....US will not attack Turkey (a moderate Muslim nation), NATO will not allow an attack on a fellow state, Turkey will not attack otherwise it will lose acceptance into the EU.What acceptance into the EU?

What acceptance into the EU?

That's what I was wondering. Last week they were still very possesive of Cyprus. But it's politics, so it could've changed over night.

I think that's just journalistic crap, for the reasons mentioned above:
1) Turkey is not even a "moderate Muslim state", it's a secular state with a Westernized political model and a long-standing NATO member. I certainly do not think they would do something like that...it is true that anti-American sentiments are now very strong in Turkey (just as almost everywhere in the world, thanks to your "wonderful" foreign policy), but damn me if they risked open war.
2) Again, they would not risk open war - let's face it, but in a conventional conflict - 2 armies using traditional military doctrines, no guerilla warfare - the U.S. military owns.
However, if the U.S. continues to be active at all fronts (Iran, Iraq, Middle East in general, a watchful eye on North Korea, Cuba, Latin America etc.) in their "righteous battle against all evil" it will definitely overstretch it's capacities. Your military is good, but not invulnerable, you know...
3) Turkey has got too much to lose...I'm talking EU membership. They will eventually submit to the demands of the EU because the benefit they would receive from joining would be enormous. If they declared war on the U.S. or invaded territory presently under U.S. control, they certainly could shove the prospect of EU membership up their arse.

I think that's just journalistic crap, for the reasons mentioned above:
1) Turkey is not even a "moderate Muslim state", it's a secular state with a Westernized political model and a long-standing NATO member. I certainly do not think they would do something like that...it is true that anti-American sentiments are now very strong in Turkey (just as almost everywhere in the world, thanks to your "wonderful" foreign policy), but damn me if they risked open war.
2) Again, they would not risk open war - let's face it, but in a conventional conflict - 2 armies using traditional military doctrines, no guerilla warfare - the U.S. military owns.
However, if the U.S. continues to be active at all fronts (Iran, Iraq, Middle East in general, a watchful eye on North Korea, Cuba, Latin America etc.) in their "righteous battle against all evil" it will definitely overstretch it's capacities. Your military is good, but not invulnerable, you know...
3) Turkey has got too much to lose...I'm talking EU membership. They will eventually submit to the demands of the EU because the benefit they would receive from joining would be enormous. If they declared war on the U.S. or invaded territory presently under U.S. control, they certainly could shove the prospect of EU membership up their arse.

excellent post, well stated

You can't even beat a few Afghani or Iraqi asses. How do you want to beat a real country and NATO member?

being in NATO means nothing more than the fact that your trustworthy. and wasnt Iraq a real country. As i remember we massacred the government of iraq in 2 weeks. Turkish troops would be a cake walk for American troops, espeically considering the war would include pushing them back while bombing the living hell out of istanbul. There would be no invasion of turkey, so we wouldnt have any of the problems we have now in Iraq....duh.

1. There is no link, and a google search doesn't reveal anything.

2. The Turks would not attack Iraq, they would maybe attack an independent Kurdistan, and even that only if it lays claim to any Turkish lands.

3. Turkey has one of the biggest militaries in the world, the second largest in NATO with more than a million active troops. They have pretty damn decent equipment, including new MEKO-type frigates from Germany, Leopard 2 tanks and F-16 fighters, plus all the modern support equipment.
The US would not simply walk over the Turkish Military. No one would.

4. Turkey wants to join the EU, they're not gonna start fighting anyone.

Turkey released it a little while ago (about a month) saying that if we were to go to war with Iran they will invade northern Iraq with full force...I'll see if I can find an article on it for you all, but our longtime ally Turkey( allied since the Cold War) ready to go to war with us, well a country we are occupying, thoughts?

What I can find on the subject doesn't mention Iran at all (and a US attack on Iran is not going to take place without sever provocation).

I did find a good article from The Economist suggesting that Turkey may pull a redo of it's 1997 invasion of Iraq (http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/turkey_chronology_invasion.htm).

America between the Turks and Kurds (http://www.economist.com/world/africa/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8422456)

Dec 13th 2006 | ANKARA AND WASHINGTON, DC
From The Economist print edition
As tension rises between the Turkish government and Kurds in Turkey and Iraq, the Americans are in a quandary

AFP

IT IS looking ever more awkward for the Americans to keep two of their closest allies in the Middle East simultaneously sweet: Turkey and the Iraqi Kurds, who enjoy extreme autonomy in what is now the only stable part of Iraq. Kurds there are particularly rattled by several of the recommendations of the Iraq Study Group, co-chaired by a former secretary of state, James Baker (see article). The Turks, for their part, are increasingly angered by a renewal of attacks in Turkey by guerrillas of the home-grown Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK). Moreover, they have never liked the idea of an autonomous Iraqi Kurdistan, seeing it as a magnet for Kurdish nationalism in the region—especially in Turkey itself.

Indeed, there is a growing chance that the Turkish army will, perhaps as the snows melt next spring, invade northern Iraq in an effort to clobber the PKK in its safe haven just inside Iraq. The Iraqi Kurds might then feel obliged to help their ethnic kinsmen fight back against the Turks. At that point, it is unclear what the Americans would do, for they deem it vital to stay friends with both the Turks, who are members of NATO, and the Iraqi Kurds, who have hitherto been by far the most pro-American group in Iraq.
<IMG SRC="http://m.2mdn.net/719096/corn_300x250_angif.gif" WIDTH="300" HEIGHT="250" usemap="#default_300x250" BORDER=0>

Iraq's Kurds disliked the Study Group's suggestion that Iraq's central government should tighten its control over Iraq's provinces. They hated a recommendation that a promised referendum on Iraq's disputed oil-rich province, Kirkuk, be postponed. And they were horrified by the report's call for America to improve relations with Syria and Iran, which have both long suppressed Kurdish nationalism.

The Iraqi Kurds' biggest worry now is that an American wobble might hasten the feared Turkish invasion of their enclave. The Turks would argue that they merely wish to knock out some 5,000-odd PKK rebels in the mountains close to the border, then withdraw. But Iraq's 4m-5m Kurds fear that the Turks' true aim would be to ruin their successful experiment in self-rule, which has been inspiring Turkey's own restive Kurds, some 14m-strong.

“It's no longer a matter of if they [the Turks] invade but how America responds when they do,” says a seasoned NATO military observer. America would be loth to let the Iraqi Kurds help their PKK kinsmen fight back, since Turkey is a cherished NATO ally and a pivotal Muslim state in the region. Turkey's airbase at Incirlik, in southern Turkey, is a hub for non-combat materiel flown in for American and allied troops serving in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The increasingly confident Iraqi Kurds sometimes helped Turkey fight against the PKK in the 1990s, but now they say they will no longer kill fellow Kurds. Instead, they have been strengthening links with their Turkish cousins, offering jobs and scholarships in northern Iraq. The Americans have been telling the Turks to stay out of Iraq, despite the PKK's provocations.

So far Turkey has obeyed, hoping that America would deal with the PKK itself. Its failure to do so is perhaps the biggest cause of rampant anti-American feeling in Turkey. In July Turkey's mildly Islamist prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, is said to have warned President George Bush, in several telephone calls, that he might be unable to restrain his hawkish generals after 15 Turkish soldiers were killed in PKK attacks in a single week. Some 250,000 Turkish troops then briefly massed on the Iraqi border, jolting the Americans into naming a former NATO commander, Joseph Ralston, as a “special envoy for countering the PKK” (his own description). But the PKK's attacks went on, despite its proclaimed ceasefire in September.

One big reason for Turkish restraint against the PKK in Iraq has been repeated warnings from the European Union, which Turkey has been bent on joining. But that restraint may weaken as the EU, or at least some of its leading members, continues to snub Turkey in its efforts to obtain membership.

If Turkish forces do invade Iraq, America's response will depend largely on the scope and scale. Most probably, they would not penetrate far into the country. “If they did, they would find themselves in the position that we do in Iraq, bogged down in a guerrilla insurgency,” says Henri Barkey, an American expert on the Kurds who served in the State Department during the Clinton administration.

Plainly, it is in America's interest to cut a deal between the Turks and the Kurds, including a plan to disarm the PKK for good, in return for wider cultural and political rights for Kurds in Turkey. Conceivably, Turkey might then be persuaded to accept the reality of an autonomous Iraqi Kurdistan; optimists point to burgeoning trade links across the border. But pessimists, especially in Turkey, say the Turks (as well as the Iranians) will never tolerate Kurdish independence, which is how they see the Iraqi Kurds' present extreme autonomy.

If it comes to a stark choice, it is hard to say which way the Americans would tilt. A vigorous debate is taking place in Washington. The self-described realists favour Turkey: the country is a tested ally and far bigger, richer and more powerful than today's fledgling Iraqi Kurdistan. The neoconservatives may favour holding on, at all costs, to the only solid ally within a federal Iraq, namely the Kurdish regional government. But the mood may recently have shifted in favour of the Turks. “The Iraqi Kurds are not the angels they were made out to be,” says an American official.

With Turks and Kurds digging their heels in, the Americans hint that they may be resigned to a limited Turkish operation that aims at PKK bases close to the Turkish border; and they would tell the Iraqi Kurds to stay put. But some in the Bush administration say the Americans should actually help Turkey swat the PKK in Iraq. “At this rate,” says another American official, “we're not only going to lose Iraq but Turkey too.” That, for America, is a prospect too ghastly to contemplate.


These threats are not new.

From September of this year:


Iran and Turkey Prepare for War in Iraqi Kurdistan (http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1214)
DEBKAfile Exclusive Military Report

September 24, 2006, 5:58 PM (GMT+02:00)

A new Middle East war is in the offing. DEBKAfile’s exclusive military sources in Iraq and sources in Iran reveal that Turkish and Iranian air units as well as armored, paratroop, special operations and artillery forces are poised for an imminent coordinated invasion of the northern Iraqi autonomous province of Kurdistan.

Our sources pinpoint the target of the combined Iranian-Turkish offensive as the Quandil Mountains (see picture), where some 5,000 Kurdish rebels from Turkey and Iran, members of the PKK and PJAK respectively, are holed up. Iranian and Turkish assault troops are already deployed 7-8 km deep inside Iraqi territory.

Turkey to the northwest and Iran to the east both have Kurdish minorities which have been radicalized by the emergence of Iraqi Kurdistan in the last three years. The three contiguous Kurdish regions form a strategic world hub.
(Note the source of that article is rather problematic and should not always be trusted, due to certain biases and occassional deliberate misinformation. Somertimes they have really good acurate stuff and sometimes their stuff is just loopy.)

From July of this year:
The Return of Turkey's Kurdish Problem
The U.S. might still be able to head off a Turkish attack on Iraqi's Kurds.
(http://forums.jolt.co.uk/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=12100205)By Henri J. Barkey, HENRI J. BARKEY, chairman of the International Relations Department at Lehigh University, is a former member of the State Department's policy planning staff.
July 30, 2006

IF IRAN'S NUCLEAR ambitions, Iraq's low-level civil war and the Israeli-Hezbollah war were not enough, President Bush may face a new dilemma. The Turkish government has ordered its military to prepare for an attack on 3,000 Kurdistan Workers Party insurgents living in Kurdish-dominated northern Iraq. Although the incursion by Turkey, a U.S. ally of 50 years, would be mostly for show, it would severely embarrass the Bush administration. No wonder the president twice talked to Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan last week.

From May of this year:

Turkey: Ankara Eyes Iraq Incursion Against PKK (http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/05/52c1f716-6e0d-497b-b78b-fdeb430231e6.html)

Turkish press reports say that Ankara is amassing troops on its border with Iraq in preparation for a possible operation into northern Iraq against Turkish-Kurdish fighters of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK). The reported troop movements raise tough questions for Washington -- which has warned against any steps that could destabilize Iraqi Kurdistan -- and for the future of the new federal Iraq.

PRAGUE, May 3, 2006 (RFE/RL) -- The Turkish media for days has been reporting that Ankara is planning a large-scale, cross-border operation against PKK hideouts in northern Iraq.

Istanbul's "Ortadogu" reported on April 23 that the Turkish armed forces had deployed two brigades to the Iraq border in preparation for the operation.

It said the campaign would include air strikes against six PKK camps in the Qandil Mountain range along the Turkish-Iraqi border, where an estimated 6,000 militants are believed to be sheltering.

And finally, from Febuary 2003:
Kurdish Rebels Fear Turkish Aggression May Accompany U.S. Troops (http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=79659&page=1)
By Kevin McKiernan

S U L A I M A N I A H, Iraq, Feb. 25 Heads of the two Kurdish factions allied with the United States in the looming attack on Iraq have made an unprecedented appeal to President Bush to protect them from another potential antagonist: NATO ally Turkey.

The administration has received entreaties about the need for protection from Turkey in the past, but this is the first in writing and the Kurds have labeled it "urgent."

The Turkish government has announced plans to enter northern Iraq to carve out a "security belt" for the protection of war refugees. The appeal to the White House came 10 days ago in the form of a letter, a copy of which has been reviewed by ABCNEWS.

The letter says many Kurds fear that "Turkey's real agenda" in wanting to send troops into Kurdistan, an autonomous area in northern Iraq, "is to crush [our] experiment in democratic self-government."

The letter contains a blunt warning as the United States prepares to use Turkey a base to launch attacks on the Baghdad government: "Should Turkish military forces come in contact with Kurdish populations," the letter declares, "there is a real risk of clashes."

Describing the Kurds as "a loyal partner" of the United States, Massoud Barzani of the Kurdistan Democratic Party and Jalal Talabani of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan request a formal "memorandum of understanding" that would guarantee "non-intervention by all Iraq's neighbor[s]" and commit the United States in writing to Kurdish concerns for "a federal and democratic Iraq."

Bunny rabbits?

Do NOT trust bunny rabbits.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/dd/Killer_rabbit.JPG/300px-Killer_rabbit.JPG

Rule #2. When you post the the thread, post the link so you won't get trounced by people asking for the link. Where is the link?

Bingo.
There is stuff out there, but it's not what the OP has made it out to be.

F-22s and M1s weren't made for driving around streets waiting to hit AT mines.

Well you managed to get something right there.

i really have no idea.

QFT

In the case that the US attacks Iran the US will have no forces left to also deal with Turkey.

Finally! Somebody speaks sense!

2) Again, they would not risk open war - let's face it, but in a conventional conflict - 2 armies using traditional military doctrines, no guerilla warfare - the U.S. military owns.
However, if the U.S. continues to be active at all fronts (Iran, Iraq, Middle East in general, a watchful eye on North Korea, Cuba, Latin America etc.) in their "righteous battle against all evil" it will definitely overstretch it's capacities. Your military is good, but not invulnerable, you know...

Several good points there. From the articles I'm finding, the OP seems to have misread or overstated his source. Large-scale open warfare against the US is (almost) certainly not in the cards for Turkey. An incursion against the KPP is a maybe. As for overstretch, we've already reached that point.

1. There is no link, and a google search doesn't reveal anything.

Check the articles above. ;)

2. The Turks would not attack Iraq, they would maybe attack an independent Kurdistan, and even that only if it lays claim to any Turkish lands.

Like I've said a couple of times now, an incursion against the KPP could well be in the works. How much of this is posturing and how well the US can deal with it are the two big questions.

3. Turkey has one of the biggest militaries in the world, the second largest in NATO with more than a million active troops. They have pretty damn decent equipment, including new MEKO-type frigates from Germany, Leopard 2 tanks and F-16 fighters, plus all the modern support equipment.
The US would not simply walk over the Turkish Military. No one would.

Indeed.

3) Turkey has got too much to lose...I'm talking EU membership. They will eventually submit to the demands of the EU because the benefit they would receive from joining would be enormous. If they declared war on the U.S. or invaded territory presently under U.S. control, they certainly could shove the prospect of EU membership up their arse.
4. Turkey wants to join the EU, they're not gonna start fighting anyone.

There are (as I'm sure both of you know) some serious problems with Turkey's joining the EU, especially after The European Commission suspended eight of the 35 chapters in the membership talks (very bad move, in my book). There's already (largely idle) talk of Turkey turning away from Europe.


(Whew! Now that I've gone off to find sources and written all that up I'll bet this will have already been addressed or Jolt will be having another hissy fit and will eat my post.)

Bring it on. We'll beat their asses back to Istanbul.

Then we can capture that city and rename it back to Constantinople as the city so richly deserves.

Come on, you know it's a cooler name. :D

Since there has been no comfirmation of this story, I would like to advise my fellow americans to stop their misguided zealous patriotic penis waving. Seriously, The U.S military is great but it would simply collapse under the strain of war with Tukey and Iran, especially as we stuck in a quagmire in Iraq and Afganistan. I love this country too but we are not invincible.

Man, imagine if the Greeks got their way after World War One. Most of Turkey would be part of Greece. Damn you Atatürk and you too Wilson for crushing Greece's dreams.

Then we can capture that city and rename it back to Constantinople as the city so richly deserves.

Come on, you know it's a cooler name. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6NKejxMVMk

snip

why conquer istanbul? would'nt make more sense to take the capital?

2. The Turks would not attack Iraq, they would maybe attack an independent Kurdistan, and even that only if it lays claim to any Turkish lands.The Turks have made it clear that they don't like the idea of an independent or highly autonomous Kurdish area, especially not if this area harbors the PKK. The Turks stage raids into Iraq occasionally, if the Iraq Study Group Report is to be believed.
4. Turkey wants to join the EU, they're not gonna start fighting anyone.Their desire to join the EU isn't enough to get them to back down from their isolation of Cyprus. At the moment, the best they offered was opening one airport and one port to Cypriot vessels. If the current Turkish government felt it was in the national interest to do something like that, I'm sure they would, and then there's the military itself which still plays a powerful role in Turkish politics, something that the EU wants to see stopped but which hasn't happened yet.

<snip>One more possible Murphy: Did you mean PKK when you typed KPP?

There are (as I'm sure both of you know) some serious problems with Turkey's joining the EU, especially after The European Commission suspended eight of the 35 chapters in the membership talks (very bad move, in my book). There's already (largely idle) talk of Turkey turning away from Europe.
Meh, it's all a bit of diplomacy. It would take a lot for Turkey to quit bothering, and all the scaremongering in Europe can be largely ignored and will probably disappear over the next decade or so (unless Turkey takes a big turn for the worse).

The real issue is Cyprus, but they'll figure something out eventually. The commission's decision was meant to set a signal, it doesn't have any real implications.

Since there has been no comfirmation of this story, I would like to advise my fellow americans to stop their misguided zealous patriotic penis waving. Seriously, The U.S military is great but it would simply collapse under the strain of war with Tukey and Iran, especially as we stuck in a quagmire in Iraq and Afganistan. I love this country too but we are not invincible.
Oh, there is one flaw in your logic: We could fight Turkey and Iran, and conceivably defeat both nation's militaries. However, after that we'd likely have no way of holding onto our gains, and would simply have to hit and run (a la the Clinton era cruise-missile strategy). Both the Turks and the Iranians have formidable land forces, and the Turks also have a pretty decent airforce. However, neither has the volume in missiles and aircraft that the Americans have, and if Desert Storm taught us anything, it's that those two trump superior land forces by a pretty large margin. So long as the U.S. controls the air (which'd be an interesting proposal, as you'd have a hard time finding a good place to use as a base without violating a third-parties airspace when attacking), the U.S. can basically move its land forces without being seen by its enemies (see: the "Hail Mary" manuever in Desert Storm). I'm drawing a blank on the name of the weapons system, but there is also that mobile missile platform that was used extensively in the so-called "Highway of Death" that has since been improved upon that pretty well showed that long-distance bombardment with rockets was pretty well devestating against even armored mobile targets.

In conclusion: Could the U.S. defeat Turkey and Iran military? Quite possibly, if not particularly quickly due to the fact it'd almost certainly require a draft to get the necessary manpower. Would the U.S. be able to do anything more than shatter enemy armies and infrastructure and then pull out? Probably not.

One final note, if we're going to conquer Istanbul, we're renaming it Byzantium. Screw Constantinople, give the city its real name back.

Yes, this could be a good thing. Eastern Thrace goes back to Greece.

I think that the Turks should be more careful... I've heard that the Greeks bought some Leopard 2A7 (the Germans have got the 2A6) and also some big russian hovercrafts (like the Pomornik or the like).
Cyprus, anyone?

Oh, there is one flaw in your logic: We could fight Turkey and Iran, and conceivably defeat both nation's militaries.
Both the Turks and the Iranians have formidable land forces, and the Turks also have a pretty decent airforce. However, neither has the volume in missiles and aircraft that the Americans have, and if Desert Storm taught us anything, it's that those two trump superior land forces by a pretty large margin. So long as the U.S. controls the air (which'd be an interesting proposal, as you'd have a hard time finding a good place to use as a base without violating a third-parties airspace when attacking), the U.S. can basically move its land forces without being seen by its enemies (see: the "Hail Mary" manuever in Desert Storm).

I doubt it... Turkey is the NATO southeastern bulwark, their AA system are built to take down Russian major airstrikes, so I think that the US airforce wouldn't have such an easy job like in Desert Storm.
Also, remember that the whole NATO rejected the land invasion of Jugoslavija because they feared what the former southwestern bulwark of the Warsaw Pact could do them on land- and Jugoslavija was a lot smaller than Turkey. And we're talking the WHOLE NATO, with plenty of its nearby bases (mostly in Italy).


One final note, if we're going to conquer Istanbul, we're renaming it Byzantium. Screw Constantinople, give the city its real name back.
Agreed. And it must get back to Hellas!

It could be a good thing to remember 1915 Dardanelles and the Turkish War of Independence where expansionists lost at the hands of a completely run-down and impoverished people.

And if people compare the Iraqi army to the Turkish army...well that's just plain funny. How do you compare a non-existent army [of which the only worthwhile unit is (was) the Republican Guard?] to a historically justified and internationally-recognized fighting force? Honestly.

Also, how many of you actually wore combat fatigues and pulled a trigger? Smelled the aphrodisiac-like cordite in the air? I have...as well as every adult Turkish male has. It could be a good idea to be married to be a marriage counsellor.

Talk is cheap gentlemen, good day.

And if people compare the Iraqi army to the Turkish army...well that's just plain funny. How do you compare a non-existent army [of which the only worthwhile unit is (was) the Republican Guard?] to a historically justified and internationally-recognized fighting force? Honestly.

Also, how many of you actually wore combat fatigues and pulled a trigger? Smelled the aphrodisiac-like cordite in the air? I have...as well as every adult Turkish male has. It could be a good idea to be married to be a marriage counsellor.

Talk is cheap gentlemen, good day.
You do realize that prior to the 1st Gulf War the Iraqi army was considered among the most powerful in the world? That it was far and away the most powerful army in the Middle East outside of Israel? That it was directly supplied by the United States, and had a large quantity of U.S. arms under its control? That its SCUD missile forces were perhaps the most feared weapons in the Middle East?

Honestly, what in God's name are you talking about? Before it was simply annihilated in the Gulf War, and subsequently banned from rearming after the war, it was a fighting force on the order of Turkey's today, a force with over a million men in uniform, and the largest (I believe) force of armored vehicles in the Middle East. The Iraqi army was a joke when Iraq was invaded the second time, simply because the UN (and the US) did not allow Iraq to rebuild its incredibly powerful army after they went through the ordeal of destroying it. Try and keep this in perspective: When Desert Shield, and subsequently Desert Storm, started, no one was even sure if the U.S. would win at all, and no one would have predicted the Iraqis would be defeated without inflicting tens of thousands of casualties upon the U.S. and allied forces.

Mayhaps you ought to ignore the gun range for a day, and check up on some relatively common historical facts before you start talking out of your ass.

We are not going to invade any of our neighbours ,we have no 'great ambitions[!} like liberating people and bringing democracy and cleansing evil all over the world :mad: .To the thread opener,get a life or post some evidence before posting complete nonsense.
Also some fat pizza boys are imaginating 'what if USA invades Turkey ,US rockxx yeah'.This is a childish talk and includes nothing more than X country is militarily stronger than Y. Yes US is militarily stronger than Turkey,but you know what this means?This means US can also defeat every European Nation and most of the other nations in the world 1vs1.So this includes England,Germany,France,Greece etc etc... So this proves what?Study some history and learn that some nations grow stronger ,become superpower then go in decline,and collapse or lose its strength slightly.US golden age is ending and maybe in the next century there will be no more USA instead lots of small nations in its place.
As for Greeks and helen wannabees ,remember how we beat your asses back to the sea?You were nothing more than people living under the rulership of Ottoman Empire and Roman Empire.You will never get İstanbul back but maybe we can take Athena and rename it 'Turcopolis' yea that would be fun :rolleyes: . Quite possible because our military can own yours anytime of the week and you suck in this matter.
:upyours:

BRITISH MILITARY PWNS ICELAND!!!1 :mp5: :mp5: :mad: :upyours:

So now the US is bent on domination?
OK,so they do go very crazy on the whole "democracy to the masses!" thing.But I don't think they want the whole world under their contol.Not even the US is that bad.

They want everyone to agree with and buy from them which is the same thing really.

You can't even beat a few Afghani or Iraqi asses. How do you want to beat a real country and NATO member?

No, actually, the Iraqi and Afghanistan military was beaten with ease and so they should have been seeing our nation does have the greatest war machine of all time, the problem in the two countries is the insurgency, people with no uniform, no flag, no unit etc etc etc. That is not a convential war.

With Turkey invadin Iraq, this would be a convential war and Turkey would be crushed. I am certain though whoever announced this sudden Turkish urge to declare war on their strongest ally is a raving lunatic. It won't ever happen.

Sure, because of Donald rumsfeld's err, shall we say, dickishness (Jon Stewart quote) we are losing to insurgents but their is no convential army on earth that in the forseeable future will ever invade united states soil, or another country with united states troops in it, or an ally of the united states.

I think that the Turks should be more careful... I've heard that the Greeks bought some Leopard 2A7 (the Germans have got the 2A6) and also some big russian hovercrafts (like the Pomornik or the like).
Cyprus, anyone?
There's no A7. The best version available is the A6 "EX", which isn't in service yet, though the German Army is planning to update a few to that standard.

The Greeks recently acquired the "HEL" (http://greekmilitary.net/greekmbtanks.htm) version of the A6, but are currently running mainly the A4. Which is the same as Turkey has.

Mayhaps you ought to ignore the gun range for a day, and check up on some relatively common historical facts before you start talking out of your ass.
What tanks, ships and planes was the Iraqi Army operating? What standard were its training, officer corps, information technology and morale?

If you compare those with what the Turkish Military is operating, you'll find that any comparisons with Desert Storm are null and void.

And you still believe in something like "conventional" warfare, don't you? Don't you think, the world has by now learned how the US can be beaten?

The USA does learn from the mistakes. Afghanistan, Iraq, and the terrorists have opened our eyes. You better believe that the training of our soldiers will include the knowledge of how to fight against ones who prefer to hide behind and in the civilian populations. The rate of civilian deaths will still be higher than that of conventional warfare but the point is if you think that are troops now and in the future won't include how to fight against insurgencies that we're currently fighting against, well, that's your choice.

I feel that Iraq and Afghanistan were tests and that we only have room for improvements and to get better.

Turkey is a modern western-ized nation that is equipped with western equipment, knows all are tactics and has a terrain that consists of mostly dessert and mountainous not to mention the fact that it could overrun Cyprus fairly easily and has the greatest chokepoint in history

Didnt it try that before? they only conquered the northern part, you know, the side with poverty and no economy?

http://www.kypros.org/Occupied_Cyprus/images/maps/cyprus_1974_657_bg.jpg

North border:Turkish republic of northern cyprus, recognised only by turkey.

Basically turkey was not strong enough to take the whole of the (compared to turkey) tiny island.

You can't even beat a few Afghani or Iraqi asses. How do you want to beat a real country and NATO member?

Are you kidding me? A real army is easier to destroy. They don't hide among the civilian population. Also every firefight between the Americans or other Western militaries and the taliban or insurgents results in a very high casualty rate for the enemy and very few Western troops killed or injured. Fact is the only way the Taliban are able to survive is because they hide across the Pakistani border and the only way the insurgents survive is that the US is too big of a pussy to use collective punishment against the towns that harbor insurgents.

And you still believe in something like "conventional" warfare, don't you? Don't you think, the world has by now learned how the US can be beaten?

Until the US decides to stop fucking around and realize that you might have to inflict some serious suffering and death on the civilians in order to ensure victory. You know, like we did during WWII?

Until the US decides to stop fucking around and realize that you might have to inflict some serious suffering and death on the civilians in order to ensure victory. You know, like we did during WWII?

Firebombing cities, using nuclear weapons on civilian areas, etc.

Notice that the last time we carpetbombed somebody (Hanoi), it actually caused them to respond by coming back to the peace table.

Maybe precision bombing isn't all that...

Bunny rabbits?

Spoken like a man who's never seen Monty Python's Holy Grail.

Firebombing cities, using nuclear weapons on civilian areas, etc.

Notice that the last time we carpetbombed somebody (Hanoi), it actually caused them to respond by coming back to the peace table.

Maybe precision bombing isn't all that...

War is supposed to be horrible for the enemy's troops and civilians. It's only when they're completely demoralized, when they see starvation, disease and death all around them and no hope for survival except surrender that they will honestly strive to make peace.

Remember what Sherman said. War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.

One more possible Murphy: Did you mean PKK when you typed KPP?

Indeed I did. I opened up my newspaper on the train on the way to work and there way my mistake glaring at me. (>.<)

The USA does learn from the mistakes. Afghanistan, Iraq, and the terrorists have opened our eyes. You better believe that the training of our soldiers will include the knowledge of how to fight against ones who prefer to hide behind and in the civilian populations. The rate of civilian deaths will still be higher than that of conventional warfare but the point is if you think that are troops now and in the future won't include how to fight against insurgencies that we're currently fighting against, well, that's your choice.

I feel that Iraq and Afghanistan were tests and that we only have room for improvements and to get better.

Unfortunately, the US military learns their lessons only to forget them in short order. Otherwise, the USMC's Small Wars Manual (http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/swm/index.htm) wouldn't have been going in and out of fashion and the lessons of the Banana Wars (that we had to relearn for Vietnam, and shouldn't have forgotten from the Indian Wars)) would have informed the military before Iraq went to shite.

Turkey released it a little while ago (about a month) saying that if we were to go to war with Iran they will invade northern Iraq with full force...I'll see if I can find an article on it for you all, but our longtime ally Turkey( allied since the Cold War) ready to go to war with us, well a country we are occupying, thoughts?

Ready the ham cannons!

This is pretty simple.

1. Sunni and Shia are major enemies these days - see Lebanon and Iraq. See Iran make threats to Saudi Arabia and other Sunni Gulf States.
2. Iran is undergoing a major military buildup, aside from developing nuclear capability. Even without nukes, it's a major threat.
3. Iran sponsors/helps Shia insurgents.
4. Syria sponsors Sunni insurgents - Saudi Arabia has said it will help them if the US leaves Iraq.
5. Kurds have oil, Shia have oil, and Sunnis have no oil in Iraq if there is a three way split of the country.
6. Turkey is opposed to an independent Kurdish country. So they would invade to prevent it.
7. The moment the US leaves Iraq, even if we "stabilize" it prior to leaving, the whole place will become WW III. Probably the whole Middle East, from Lebanon to Iran (including Israel, Jordan, Syria, the entire Persian Gulf, and maybe even Pakistan) will be embroiled in a chaotic conflict.

I would recommend that we leave now, and stay out of the way until the dust settles.

You do realize that prior to the 1st Gulf War the Iraqi army was considered among the most powerful in the world? That it was far and away the most powerful army in the Middle East outside of Israel? That it was directly supplied by the United States, and had a large quantity of U.S. arms under its control? That its SCUD missile forces were perhaps the most feared weapons in the Middle East?

Honestly, what in God's name are you talking about? Before it was simply annihilated in the Gulf War, and subsequently banned from rearming after the war, it was a fighting force on the order of Turkey's today, a force with over a million men in uniform, and the largest (I believe) force of armored vehicles in the Middle East. The Iraqi army was a joke when Iraq was invaded the second time, simply because the UN (and the US) did not allow Iraq to rebuild its incredibly powerful army after they went through the ordeal of destroying it. Try and keep this in perspective: When Desert Shield, and subsequently Desert Storm, started, no one was even sure if the U.S. would win at all, and no one would have predicted the Iraqis would be defeated without inflicting tens of thousands of casualties upon the U.S. and allied forces.

Mayhaps you ought to ignore the gun range for a day, and check up on some relatively common historical facts before you start talking out of your ass.

talking out of your arse is exactly what you're doing....before GW1 Iraq had one of the largest armies in the world, not one of the best.....it's equipment was strictly second grade stuff, much of it post WW2 quality, mid 70's at best.....

Didnt it try that before? they only conquered the northern part, you know, the side with poverty and no economy?

http://www.kypros.org/Occupied_Cyprus/images/maps/cyprus_1974_657_bg.jpg

North border:Turkish republic of northern cyprus, recognised only by turkey.

Basically turkey was not strong enough to take the whole of the (compared to turkey) tiny island.

they only conquered the northern side because that's where most of the Turkish inhabitants lived, had they wished the southern side would have been theirs in a matter of days.

I think Turkey is full of a bunch of wusses. If they had any military power they would have seized the Balkans from Austria-Hungary when it was still the Ottoman Empire. They are weak and will eventually be picked off by the Russian Federation or muslim terrorists.

You can't even beat a few Afghani or Iraqi asses. How do you want to beat a real country and NATO member?

Even though I highly doubt Turkey ever said such a thing or that they would do so if they did threaten to, I will respond to this.

When Turkish tanks try to cross the border they will find that they have no air cover and just like the Iraqi armor in the Gulf War and this more recent war they will be sitting ducks for US pilots. Insurgencies don't work as a tool of an invading force.

Besides, why would Turkey care about Iran? Turkey is a secular state who has no love for fundamentalist muslims or the Iranian government. Turks are shunned by the rest of the Muslim world.

1. It's probably against Turkey's interest's for Iran to become stratigically more powerful in the region (it's already been strengthened recently in the region's balance of power), so it probably wouldn't back Iran.
2. Turkey sees itself/aspires to be a modern, secular European state. Such a war would ruin its hopes of EU membership, remaining part of the Western club, and would be damaging economically and probably be extremely bad domestically.

Turkey is not going to support Iran.

Invading the North Iraq will only provoke more terrorist attacks in the East of Turkey itself. It really cannot use this ethnic tensions.

This is pretty simple.

1. Sunni and Shia are major enemies these days - see Lebanon and Iraq. See Iran make threats to Saudi Arabia and other Sunni Gulf States.
2. Iran is undergoing a major military buildup, aside from developing nuclear capability. Even without nukes, it's a major threat.
3. Iran sponsors/helps Shia insurgents.
4. Syria sponsors Sunni insurgents - Saudi Arabia has said it will help them if the US leaves Iraq.
5. Kurds have oil, Shia have oil, and Sunnis have no oil in Iraq if there is a three way split of the country.
6. Turkey is opposed to an independent Kurdish country. So they would invade to prevent it.
7. The moment the US leaves Iraq, even if we "stabilize" it prior to leaving, the whole place will become WW III. Probably the whole Middle East, from Lebanon to Iran (including Israel, Jordan, Syria, the entire Persian Gulf, and maybe even Pakistan) will be embroiled in a chaotic conflict.

I would recommend that we leave now, and stay out of the way until the dust settles.

That's been my "plan" for Iraq for almost a year now.

Let the backers and financers of international terror waste their time fighting each other. Meanwhile, we focus on Afghanistan and Port/Border security...like we should have fucking been doing since 9/11!

The only problem is the Iraqi people get screwed...but I do not see a way to avoid that at this point.