NationStates Jolt Archive

Sorry if this has been done recently, but I don't recall ever seeing it for the UK, at any rate.

Who would you vote for, and why?

The Conservatives, because I'm a liar.

Conservatives because Iam from Lincolnshire

I don't know.. The town I live in was the birth place of Maggie Thatcher. There is little chance of anybody except a tory being voted for as our MP..

I don't think there is a political party that really reflects my views.

Whomever I disagree with least on the policies I currently feel are most important to me. I don't have a particular allegiance.

Trilby63;12097607']I don't know.. The town I live in was the birth place of Maggie Thatcher. There is little chance of anybody except a tory being voted for as our MP..

I don't think there is a political party that really reflects my views.

You want "No Candidate Deserves my Vote" then.
It's a genuine political party, which basically wants a "none of the above" box on ballot papers, to enable positive abstention.

Alternatively, you could start your own.

You want "No Candidate Deserves my Vote" then.
It's a genuine political party, which basically wants a "none of the above" box on ballot papers, to enable positive abstention.

Alternatively, you could start your own.

Really? Cool!

What else do they stand for? I mean, they are a few more ways in which the electoral system could change..

Conservatives because I like the colour blue.

Trilby63;12097639']Really? Cool!

What else do they stand for? I mean, they are a few more ways in which the electoral system could change..

www.nocandidate.org.uk (http://www.nocandidate.org.uk/)

As far as I'm aware, that's their only policy, but check their website.

Labour because there the better of 3 evils sadly

Having not been able to vote in a general election it would be pretty nice to exercise that right. Last time I was out the country and the British Embassy sucked to high hell. The time before that I was a couple of months too young to vote.

Next I'd probably LibDems, unless I was registered in my home ward of Hackney North, in which case I'd still vote Labour. Other than that I will not vote Labour until pretty much everyone currently in the cabinent is no longer involved in government. I'm so close to mailing my Labour Party membership card to my MP and with protest letter against the government.

treditionally I'm labour, but since 1995 they havn't been labour, so I'm stuck with the Liberals.

Its got to be the Monster Raving Loony Party (http://omrlp.com/?page_id=64). I have read some of their policies and they make a lot of sence. :p

Bizarre poll: you give individual entries for the UKIP/BNP/Veritas/Monster Raving Loony parties, none of whom hold a single seat in the House of Commons, but then lump in Sinn Fein, Plaid Cyrmu, and the Scottish Nationalists into a single entry, despite the fact that they hold 14 seats, and ignore completely those other parties (including the fourth largest in parliament) who hold a total of 17 seats.

I'm leaning towards the LibDems right now, although I voted for Labour last time. I have an aversion to the Conservatives, I'll never vote for that party.

For we non-UK people, could someone describe what each of these parties seems to stand for?

For we non-UK people, could someone describe what each of these parties seems to stand for?No. Partly because there so little difference that your guess is probably as good as ours.

edit: Everyone's voting LibDem because they're the party that hasn't been in government (hence having no previous bad track record), but has the best chance to form a government out of the rest of the other parties.

Green or Lib Dem, if I had to choose.

For we non-UK people, could someone describe what each of these parties seems to stand for?

We have so many parties that if you have a view on something then there will be a party for you. If in the unlikely event of you being unable to find one, you can start your own.

Last election I voted Lib Dem because there was a good chance they'd win/retain the seat. They won it from Labour in a by-election in 2003 (I think), but then were soundly whipped last year.

Considering volunteering to help the Green Party at the next election, if they have a candidate here.

Bizarre poll: you give individual entries for the UKIP/BNP/Veritas/Monster Raving Loony parties, none of whom hold a single seat in the House of Commons, but then lump in Sinn Fein, Plaid Cyrmu, and the Scottish Nationalists into a single entry, despite the fact that they hold 14 seats, and ignore completely those other parties (including the fourth largest in parliament) who hold a total of 17 seats.

I don't think you're going to have a choice between any of the nationalist parties in a single constituency, so lumping them together as "Generic Nationalist" isn't much of a problem. The BNP are a bit different, because they're not separatist, just racist thugs. But "Where is the Green Party?" is a good question.

For we non-UK people, could someone describe what each of these parties seems to stand for?
Supposedly Labour stands for the rights of the working classes, Conservatives are for the middle-classes and businessmen and the Lib Dems are a sort of mixed cuddly version of the other two. The rest of the parties are generally insignificant.

In practice, Labour are more right-wing than the Tories, who are trying to re-invent themselves as the Lib Dems. The Lib Dems are too busy trying to get everyone to take them seriously to actually do anything.

In practice, Labour are more right-wing than the Tories, who are trying to re-invent themselves as the Lib Dems. The Lib Dems are too busy trying to get everyone to take them seriously to actually do anything.

And the Greens would be OK if they were a bit less bong-hitting hippies and a bit more practical, eg. not liking fossil-fuel based power generation and wanting to get rid of nuclear power.

Oh, and if they didn't support the fox-hunting ban.

I don't think you're going to have a choice between any of the nationalist parties in a single constituency, so lumping them together as "Generic Nationalist" isn't much of a problem. The BNP are a bit different, because they're not separatist, just racist thugs. But "Where is the Green Party?" is a good question.

Yeah, but given that I had the option of chosing between the SDLP, DUP, UUP, SF, Alliance, Workers Party and the Rainbow Party I feel particularly ill served by that poll. Only one of those parties made it onto the list, and they came in fourth. Hardly representative.

Because of our FPTP system it entirely depends on both the individual candidates themselves and the candidates other parties put up. For example, in my constituency (Billericay) I would have had the choice between Labour, the LibDems, the Tories, UKIP and the BNP, even if I had wanted to, for example, vote Green.

Plus, one has to then take into account tactical voting.

However, I'll have to, out of that list, say Labour, but only with the LRC (Headed by Tony Benn) and not with the right-wing mainstream New Labour project who are just as right-wing economically as the Tories, who I hate as much as Blair.

[QUOTE=Compulsive Depression;12097837]And the Greens would be OK if they were a bit less bong-hitting hippies and a bit more practical, eg. not liking fossil-fuel based power generation and wanting to get rid of nuclear power.

Oh, and if they didn't support the fox-hunting ban.[/QUThe

Greens are just single policy fools who believed that before the industrial revolution everyone lived in some agrarian utopia. None of the other parties have any variation on policy and are just pro-corporate puppets....As is every other government in the west, and every government that isnt in the west is either corrupted by bribary/wto & imf or just utterly victimised.

For we non-UK people, could someone describe what each of these parties seems to stand for?

Labour are currently in power. They used to be left-wing and socialist, but since being in power they have become much more central and pro-business. They are generally pro-Europe, but prefer to avoid talking about it.

Conservatives are traditionally centre-right. They usually favour lower taxes, smaller government and preserving the status quo. Generally against European integration and immigration. Used to campaign on moral issues too, but less so nowadays. Traditional voters tend to be older.

Lib dems are less pro-business and have recently campaigned on environmental issues. They were the only major party to oppose the Iraq war. Generally pro-Europe. Tend to appeal to younger voters (who forget to vote).

UKIP/Vertitas used to be the same party. They are nationalist, but not openly racist like the BNP. They are anti-Europe, anti-immigration, and want to preserve the pound as an independent currency.

Scottish/Welsh/Irish Nationalist Parties want independence for their respective areas.

You missed out the Green Party. They campaign on environmental issues and are generally anti-big-business.

Only Labour, Conservative and Lib Dems have any real power.

BNP or conservatives

BNP or conservatives

Can I ask...are there any genuine socialists left or is that just a sick joke.....couldn’t help noticing there isn’t one socialist party on the options....but there is ultra right BNP.......Why is this? I write for a number of socialist magazines and am bemused as to the complete lack of support for Marxism or Leninism...its as if they are dirty words, and yet there is profound concern for world poverty, which is, lets face it, related to corporate activity. All the problems facing mankind today seem to be related to capitalism, which still cannot benefit the majority of people participating in it. The 'free' Market still seems to imprison the majority to a life of unrewarding toil, and we send celebs on choreographed charity trips.

Who actually votes for BNP???? you gotta be blind, deaf or have slept for 50 years to actually listen to these guys!!! If the BNP got to power, people like me would probably vanish......'not a bad thing I hear you say' :)

BNP or conservatives

Seriously? :eek:

You actually want to kick all ethnic minorities out of the UK?

Voting for a party and having "allegiance" aren't the same thing. Allegiance mean that you are in some way allied to the party so you see them as "your side" or whatever. Voting for them just means you think they are the least crap choice.

Seriously? :eek:

You actually want to kick all ethnic minorities out of the UK?

There are eliments that make sence, however quite a lot is just rasist bull crap.
Also their methods are questionable at best.

There are eliments that make sence, however quite a lot is just rasist bull crap.
Also their methods are questionable at best.

Eliments that make sence?? That is incredible...what part of the BNP makes sense?

To all those who said: what's up with the poll?

Sorry about the greens, I genuinely forgot them.
Nationalists - you will only get a choice of one in any constituency.
Socialists - I can't think of a party more left wing than the Lim Dems (alas).

If I was a Brit, maybe the LibDems.

Socialists - I can't think of a party more left wing than the Lim Dems (alas).
Erm, they're hardly left wing. The Greens are left wing. The Liberal Party is left wing. Respect (Galloway's party) is left wing.

Then there's various minor Socialist and Communist parties. Search for British political parties on Wikipedia for a full list.

Monster Raving Looney Party all the way! Woohoo! I really agree with their policies

If I was a Brit, maybe the LibDems.

Monster Raving Looney Party all the way! Woohoo! I really agree with their policies

Then again... I could just be persuaded to vote this way. USA needs a party like this. And Democrats don't count.

Erm, they're hardly left wing. The Greens are left wing. The Liberal Party is left wing. Respect (Galloway's party) is left wing.
But he's a nut-job, so he's not getting my vote. I'd vote for the Greens if they stood in my constituency; I'd also consider standing for them in time.

But he's a nut-job, so he's not getting my vote. I'd vote for the Greens if they stood in my constituency; I'd also consider standing for them in time.
It's hardly a party, either, and come the next election he has absolutely no chance of retaining his seat.

I'm not sure I'd stand for the Greens - maybe as a local councillor - but as I said above, I would volunteer to help them at election time.

BNP or conservatives
*Coughcouh*Band of football hooligans playing at Nazis*Coughcough*

And that's just the Tories :D

Search for British political parties on Wikipedia for a full list.

Thanks for the tip!
I just went for the first 9 parties that came to mind, which probably wasn't the best way to do it.

Lib-dems I guess.
Is it just me, or are the Conservatives under Cameron becoming more left wing than Labour?

No candidate, because the UK is a fucking police state with stupid politicians.

Lib-dems I guess.
Is it just me, or are the Conservatives under Cameron becoming more left wing than Labour?


Labour control the centre, theres no real party for the left. I personally think that cameron and Blair need to swap parties but hey

Lib-dems I guess.
Is it just me, or are the Conservatives under Cameron becoming more left wing than Labour?

Pritty much. all the 3 mains are trying to become the party of the center with the problems that entails. If one moved out to the left or the right I think that would actually improve there chances.

Lib-dems I guess.
Is it just me, or are the Conservatives under Cameron becoming more left wing than Labour?
It generally seems so, but I think there is a bit of a fiscal conservative in George Osborne, who has at least expressed interest in a fat tax and abolishing capital gains tax, although the former I think is pretty much a political impossibility. I, for one, expect to hear the phrase "share the proceeds of growth" at the next election.

Just as your average Labour voter and member is to the left of Blair, I'd say the average Tory member is to the right of Cameron, and these "policy reviews" are showing that through.

I love British democracy...

I'm a social liberal and adhere to nearly everything the Liberal Democrats talk about. Their viewpoints on society, enviromentalism, constitutional reform and international affairs are, to me, perfect. The Liberal Democrats seem to put forth fair points to solving key issues. Take for example some key points:

*Cannabis to be regulated and legal (thus, some agree, would end the crime associated with it)
*Police not ID Cards (Policing stops crime - not plastic and computer chips)
*If we want to solve problems internationally the whole situation needs to be revaluated starting with making the UN stronger, looking at Israel-Palestine with a two-state-solution and making the EU a strong international player.
*Green Taxes where as polluters are taxed, poorest taken out of poverty and re-insitution of real progressive taxation
*Less MPs, elected Senate (not a House of Lords) and proportional representation.

Yet, I also have strong support for certain other parties. I believe Sinn Fein/SDLP are spot on in their view point and if I were to be living in Northern Ireland permantly (I am a regular visitor...almost a resident) I would certaintly vote for Sinn Fein - Tiocfaidh ár Lá - as British rule in Eire should have never been. I also think in recent years that Scottish Nationals have done a good job in Parliament and I look foward to the 2007 Scottish Elections.

Nonetheless, Liberal Democrats make sense Ideologically they combine liberalism, enviromentalism, internationalism and social democracy. For such reason I became a member earlier this year.

http://libdems.org.uk/www.libdems.org.uk/tenreasons.html

httP://sinnfein.ie

For we non-UK people, could someone describe what each of these parties seems to stand for?

Conservative and Unionist Party (Conservatives/Tories) - Like US Blue Dog Democrats/ US Republicans - Retaining the UK (not allowing for Wales/Scotland/NI to leave), Conservative economics, lower taxes (ideally), traditional values (family over singles/gay couples) and, historically, upper middle classes.

Liberal Democratic Party (Liberal Democrats/LibDems) - Ensuring everyone has a fair chance in life so unlike conservatives where its a free for all or socialism where everyone is equal through out LibDems want, basically, for everyone to have a good start in life then make own way from there. Read everything above for more views.

Labour Party - Like Bill Clinton yet many grassroot members are Socialist - The traditional working class party Labour has affiliation with trade unions and is supposed to be a 'democratic-socialist party' (see Labour constitution). However, under Blair, the party has drifted towards favouring a free market (conservative) economy together with ensuring strong rule is adhered to.

Pritty much. all the 3 mains are trying to become the party of the center with the problems that entails. If one moved out to the left or the right I think that would actually improve there chances.

I don't think the three are all too similair. If you look at the extremes of each parties you find their roots: democratic socialists in labour, fiscal conservatives in Tories and social liberals in LibDems.

However with all recent leaders the parties have drifted from their original view points. Under Blair the ideology of centrism and Third Way have become the status-quo and under Cameron the Tories have, by face value, moved left yet still retain tradtional old-right view points: libertarianism and an eerie sense of quiet nationalism. The Liberal Democrats still retain roughly the same view point and take a odd selection of points many of which do, sadly, contradict. The LibDems support right wing economic freedom alongside left wing 'positive freedom' whereas the state can help elevate people out of poverty. LibDems seem to just want to, as party constitution says, ''build and safeguard a fair, free and open society, in which we seek to balance the fundamental values of liberty, equality and community, and in which no-one shall be enslaved by poverty, ignorance or conformity.''

LibDems oppose the two on more isues though:

FOR Europe; not Euro-sceptic on unsure
AGAINST Iraq; not for the war
FOR Liberal values; not for taking away liberty and traditional liberal values
AGAINST ID; not for
FOR right to protest; not against right to protest in Westminster
FOR Kyoto; not for glossing a pretty picture and avoiding the point

Well, in theory...labour. But, Tony Blair harping on about the EU and the euro annoys me, i feel our membership in the Union is at a...not great but not particularly bad point now, and i really would hate to see as i get in even more.
I feel where we are now we are reaping benefits, but if we get further into the union the benefits will be outweighed by the feeling of our independency going down the drain.
I've supported labour but while Tony blair is in EU mode i really get turned off them. I'll most likely vote labour next election if they stop with the EU rubbish.

I would love to vote for the Greens or Lib Dems in the next election, except I live in a Labour Stronghold so even if I voted Conservative my vote wouldn't change a thing. I doubt I'll bother.

I would love to vote for the Greens or Lib Dems in the next election, except I live in a Labour Stronghold so even if I voted Conservative my vote wouldn't change a thing. I doubt I'll bother.

Something like 60% of constituencies are considered 'safe' where as you can only really vote for:

a) winner
b) second
c) not

Thus, UK's voting system is crap. I have no choice where I am - my vote means nothing as LibDems are a weak second. Labour only won 36% of votes yet have 70% of Parliament...we're not a democracy. Proportional representation would reverse this to some extent but Labour and Tories are opposed.

Indeed, 'cording to electoralcalculus.co.uk the LibDems would have 615 seats whilst Lab/Con would have naught judging from votes above.

Trilby63;12097607']I don't know.. The town I live in was the birth place of Maggie Thatcher...

i think y'all should organise a witch hunt ;)


i'll probably be voting labour. i'd like to vote lib debs but a) labour seem to need support right now, b) the lib dems won't get into government just yet, and c) the result of A and B mean the tories might stand a chance of getting power, and i'll vote for whoever the fuck can keep em out!

i think y'all should organise a witch hunt ;)


i'll probably be voting labour. i'd like to vote lib debs but a) labour seem to need support right now, b) the lib dems won't get into government just yet, and c) the result of A and B mean the tories might stand a chance of getting power, and i'll vote for whoever the fuck can keep em out!

I vote labour for exactly the same reason! Goddam tories. It would be a better system if we could vote for the party we didnt want as well.

i think y'all should organise a witch hunt ;)


i'll probably be voting labour. i'd like to vote lib debs but a) labour seem to need support right now, b) the lib dems won't get into government just yet, and c) the result of A and B mean the tories might stand a chance of getting power, and i'll vote for whoever the fuck can keep em out!
That's precisely the reason why Labour will win the next election - Cameron may have attracted some grey voters to the Conservatives, but dormant Labour supporters (those who haven't bothered voting at all recently) might be mobilised to vote Labour to keep the Tories out.

Thus, UK's voting system is crap. I have no choice where I am - my vote means nothing as LibDems are a weak second. Labour only won 36% of votes yet have 70% of Parliament...we're not a democracy. Proportional representation would reverse this to some extent but Labour and Tories are opposed.

Worse than that, because of low voter turnout, only 21% of people who were eligible to vote voted for Labour.

Hardly a representative democracy, is it?

I never even knew you could vote for the welsh nationalist party, i suppose there for more indepedence?

Otherwise BNP, they seem to make a lot of sense lately (I'M NOT RACIST!)

I vote labour for exactly the same reason! Goddam tories. It would be a better system if we could vote for the party we didnt want as well.
lol i like the idea of evicting parties... like some grotesque political version of big brother :p

That's precisely the reason why Labour will win the next election - Cameron may have attracted some grey voters to the Conservatives, but dormant Labour supporters (those who haven't bothered voting at all recently) might be mobilised to vote Labour to keep the Tories out.

i sincerely hope so. cameron's tories are quite a slick political machine, and are seen to be giving labour the first run for their money in a long time. i'm hoping some of the many lib dem voters will vote tactically for labour to keep the tories out.... it'd be a terrible shame if the left (ish) vote were split between two parties and the right got in.

i'll probably be voting labour. i'd like to vote lib debs but a) labour seem to need support right now, b) the lib dems won't get into government just yet, and c) the result of A and B mean the tories might stand a chance of getting power, and i'll vote for whoever the fuck can keep em out!

I have very similar thoughts to you. I'd prefer the LibDems to be in power, but I can't really see it happening. That's why I voted for Labour instead last time, to keep the Conservatives out.

I've decided that my next vote will be for the LibDems though, as one vote doesn't make a difference and I should vote for the party that I agree with the most. Although it does depend, I might keep an eye on popularity polls and if the LibDem party aren't doing too good then I might throw my vote Labours way again.

i sincerely hope so. cameron's tories are quite a slick political machine, and are seen to be giving labour the first run for their money in a long time. i'm hoping some of the many lib dem voters will vote tactically for labour to keep the tories out.... it'd be a terrible shame if the left (ish) vote were split between two parties and the right got in.

But... But... ID Cards!
Apart from that (OK, and Tony Blair) the Tories and New Labour are exactly the same. So vote for the Tories and you get rid of ID cards, but everything else is the same...

But... But... ID Cards!
Apart from that (OK, and Tony Blair) the Tories and New Labour are exactly the same. So vote for the Tories and you get rid of ID cards, but everything else is the same...
So the key issue of the 2009 (probably) General Election will be 'Gordon Brown and ID cards, or David Cameron and no ID cards'?

So the key issue of the 2009 (probably) General Election will be 'Gordon Brown and ID cards, or David Cameron and no ID cards'?

I hate David Cameron, he's seems too nice. :(

Maybe we should make up some nasty rumors and sell them to the Sun.

But... But... ID Cards!
Apart from that (OK, and Tony Blair) the Tories and New Labour are exactly the same. So vote for the Tories and you get rid of ID cards, but everything else is the same...
i don't really have a huge issue with ID cards. nor with security cameras in town centres or speed cameras on motorways, or many of the other things that irritate people against 'big government'

i also don't want to chastise blair et al for the iraq war debacle. yes it was war under false pretenses, but i believe that blair was in an untenable situation stuck between our two greatest allies, europe (fance in particular) and the US, and he made the best of the situation he could even at the cost of his own political career.

as for the difference between the tories and labour.... the differences are few, and certainly less than i'd like (labour should be more left), but a) i don't trust the tories further than i can thow my own shit, b) their leader is a slimy blue-blooded etonian toerag who seems to have no actual principles and will simply say whatever the voters want to hear to gain votes (i am not so much an 'issues voter' as an ideological voter), and c) while differences are relatively few between the tories and labour's social policies, i believe there are sill large differences between the two parties economic policies, and the way gordon brown and labour economic policy has helped keep this country on the straight & narrow over the last 10 years is little short of an economic miracle in the face of global economic decline, wars, and oil price rises akin to (but no way near as bad as) the 1970s OPEC crises.

I have very similar thoughts to you. I'd prefer the LibDems to be in power, but I can't really see it happening. That's why I voted for Labour instead last time, to keep the Conservatives out.

I've decided that my next vote will be for the LibDems though, as one vote doesn't make a difference and I should vote for the party that I agree with the most. Although it does depend, I might keep an eye on popularity polls and if the LibDem party aren't doing too good then I might throw my vote Labours way again.

i voted lib dems last time lol, but this time i think tactical voting will be more important and will vote labour regardless.
i also happen to be in a pretty solid labour stronghold area, so voting libs would be kinda wasted here anyway

So the key issue of the 2009 (probably) General Election will be 'Gordon Brown and ID cards, or David Cameron and no ID cards'?

To me? Yes. And my vote will be for "no ID cards". The only reason I didn't vote Tory last time was because they'd not came out against ID cards at the time.

Edit:
as for the difference between the tories and labour.... the differences are few, and certainly less than i'd like (labour should be more left), but a) i don't trust the tories further than i can thow my own shit, b) their leader is a slimy blue-blooded etonian toerag who seems to have no actual principles and will simply say whatever the voters want to hear to gain votes
Funnily enough that's exactly my feelings about New Labour ;)
Well, Tony might've gone to some posh school other than Eton, I can't remember.

but a) i don't trust the tories further than i can thow my own shit, b) their leader is a slimy blue-blooded etonian toerag who seems to have no actual principles and will simply say whatever the voters want to hear to gain votes (i am not so much an 'issues voter' as an ideological voter),

I feel the same way about the tories, I hate the very things that party stands for.

i voted lib dems last time lol, but this time i think tactical voting will be more important and will vote labour regardless.
i also happen to be in a pretty solid labour stronghold area, so voting libs would be kinda wasted here anyway

I've really thought a lot about who to vote for, and I'm still thinking about it. I really want to see the LibDems in power, but I dispise the Conservatives. I might yet vote tactically, although the LibDems did close the gap a little last time around. I really don't know what to do.

To me? Yes. And my vote will be for "no ID cards". The only reason I didn't vote Tory last time was because they'd not came out against ID cards at the time.
For me, I'd vote for "Gordon Brown".

Funnily enough that's exactly my feelings about New Labour ;)
Well, Tony might've gone to some posh school other than Eton, I can't remember.
Fettes College in Edinburgh. Currently £15500-22500 per year.

Nice to see where our 'socialist' leaders are coming from, isn't it?

Go proportional representation!

Having said that, it would also require much more equal coverage of parties in the media.
The BNP (far right) got into my poll because I often seem to hear about them in the news. The Social Equality Party (far left) did not, because until last night, I did not know they existed.
There is something wrong with that, especially since the BNP have gained a lot of public awareness from the criminal trial of senior figures. (By the way, the Social Equality Party is based on the views of Trotsky, and there are a total of 6 parties with "communism" or "communist" in their name under far left british political parties on wikipedia.)

I wouldn't vote at all in a country where the system practically just alouds two parties to sit in the parliament. Didn't the liberal democrats get many votes last time but almoust no power at all?

For me, I'd vote for "Gordon Brown".
I have plenty of other reasons to hold a grudge against Labour; they fucked me over with tuition fees and student loans (yay socialism!), they banned foxhunting (at least they're too incompetent to uphold it), and I spent well over a year unemployed under them after my degree.

Fettes College in Edinburgh. Currently £15500-22500 per year.

Nice to see where our 'socialist' leaders are coming from, isn't it?
And where their principles are going to...

I wouldn't vote at all in a country where the system practically just alouds two parties to sit in the parliament. Didn't the liberal democrats get many votes last time but almoust no power at all?

2005 Election Results

Labour: 356 seats, 35.3% of vote
Conservative: 198 seats, 32.3% of vote
Lib Dem: 62 seats, 22.1% of vote
Others*: 29 seats, 10.3% of vote

Source: BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2005/html/scoreboard.stm)

*See website for full details; I didn't feel it necessary to type them all out.

But here's one startling stat:
Independent Kiddiminster Hospital and Health Concern: 1 seat, 0.1% of vote
UKIP: 0 seats, 2.2% of vote

That's "democracy" for you!

2005 Election Results

Labour: 356 seats, 35.3% of vote
Conservative: 198 seats, 32.3% of vote
Lib Dem: 62 seats, 22.1% of vote
Others*: 29 seats, 10.3% of vote

Source: BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2005/html/scoreboard.stm)

*See website for full details; I didn't feel it necessary to type them all out.

But here's one startling stat:
Independent Kiddiminster Hospital and Health Concern: 1 seat, 0.1% of vote
UKIP: 0 seats, 2.2% of vote

That's "democracy" for you!

It doesnt seem very democratic to me. Labour has moore than the majority of the seats although it just got 35% of the votes. While Labour is highly overrepresented the Liberaldemocrats and the conservatives recieved less power than they shoul've.

It doesnt seem very democratic to me. Labour has moore than the majority of the seats although it just got 35% of the votes. While Labour is highly overrepresented the Liberaldemocrats and the conservatives recieved less power than they shoul've.

Agreed. I dislike the way it's done, it has many faults and is unfair. However, we're stuck with it. :(

It doesnt seem very democratic to me. Labour has moore than the majority of the seats although it just got 35% of the votes. While Labour is highly overrepresented the Liberaldemocrats and the conservatives recieved less power than they shoul've.

Presumably the reason for all this is that the Conservatives and Lib Dems won their constituencies by fairly high margins, whereas Labour only just won seats.
That certainly explains the UKIP / Independent Kiddiminster Hospital and Health Concern stat.

2005 Election Results

Labour: 356 seats, 35.3% of vote
Conservative: 198 seats, 32.3% of vote
Lib Dem: 62 seats, 22.1% of vote
Others*: 29 seats, 10.3% of vote

Source: BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2005/html/scoreboard.stm)

*See website for full details; I didn't feel it necessary to type them all out.

But here's one startling stat:
Independent Kiddiminster Hospital and Health Concern: 1 seat, 0.1% of vote
UKIP: 0 seats, 2.2% of vote

That's "democracy" for you!I don't find that startling. As far as I'm aware the Kiddiminster Hospital party only stands in a couple of wards (maybe just one). Due to its manifesto it unsurprisingly garners a huge amount of votes from the local wards, but would be unlikely to a attract a single vote outside of Kiddiminster. So, yes, that is democracy in action. The people of Kiddiminster have an MP who is most likely to be very responsive to their needs and wants, as opposed some government or opposition lackey who dare not stand out of line.

The British political system needs two houses. One to represent the country as whole, and one to present regions and local areas. The former would probably operate best under PR, and latter would operate best under FPTP. The one thing I can't figure out is how to reduce party influence on the regional representatives.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
According to this pole (admittedly it is flawed) the Conservatives would be beaten into 4th by the Monster Raving Loony Party!





Actually, I can see why...

The British political system needs two houses. One to represent the country as whole, and one to present regions and local areas. The former would probably operate best under PR, and latter would operate best under FPTP. The one thing I can't figure out is how to reduce party influence on the regional representatives.

I agree absolutely.
How about abolishing the whole idea of parties for the FPTP house?

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
According to this pole (admittedly it is flawed) the Conservatives would be beaten into 4th by the Monster Raving Loony Party!





Actually, I can see why...
:eek:

my dream come true!! :)
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1934/spongebob0001tn0.jpg

:eek:

my dream come true!! :)
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1934/spongebob0001tn0.jpg

You'd like Sponge Bob Squarepants to be Prime Minister?
Any idea what his policies are?

You'd like Sponge Bob Squarepants to be Prime Minister?
Any idea what his policies are?

free crabby patties for every sponge!
and compulsory jellyfishing practice every thursday :)

Proportional elections are the most fair ones. Does anyone disagree?

Proportional elections are the most fair ones. Does anyone disagree?

Proportional Representaion in Weimar Germany helped the Nazi party to get started.

I'm not saying that this makes them unfair, or that it mean's we shouldn't use them - I just thought someone ought to point this out.

I agree absolutely.
How about abolishing the whole idea of parties for the FPTP house?Well parties do provide funding for their candidates to seek election in wards. They cover the cost of publicity materials and the like.

Even if you did abolish parties candidates would still have party affliations. And so if they wanted to advance in a political career many of the regional representatives might bend the knee to the demands of the larger parties in the national house.

If would just be unfeasible to enforce such a rule. Sure you could remove party affliation on the ballot box, but what's to stop a candidate publicly affliating with a party or even privately.

I just think it's impossible to stop the natural formation of humans into groups.

It was the party affiliation on the ballot box I was thinking of removing.

I agree that you would still end up with people being affiliated to particular parties (they would probably be a member of a party), but might help a bit.

Proportional Representaion in Weimar Germany helped the Nazi party to get started.

I'm not saying that this makes them unfair, or that it mean's we shouldn't use them - I just thought someone ought to point this out.

It doesn't really have anything do with anything that the nazis got started this way. It's the people's fault not the elections system's.

Proportional Representaion in Weimar Germany helped the Nazi party to get started.

I'm not saying that this makes them unfair, or that it mean's we shouldn't use them - I just thought someone ought to point this out.
I'd say that the death of Stresemann and the Great Depression helped the Nazi party far more than the system of proportional representation.

The proportional government was a factor though.
I never said it was the only one - indeed I implied it wasn't the only one when I said that this shouldn't stop us using it in the UK.

But you dont really need to be that clever to understand that it's moore fair that a party gets 4 seats out of ten if they have gotten 40% of the votes instead of all the seats.

The proportional government was a factor though.
I never said it was the only one - indeed I implied it wasn't the only one when I said that this shouldn't stop us using it in the UK.
Instead of bringing up the Nazis, you could instead look at where PR is used in modern politics - and you'll find that the European Parliament uses it, as do many European countries for their own parliaments. It seems to be a success in these countries, so we should try it here. Sticking with something because it has apparently worked for centuries is a bad idea.

Proportional Representaion in Weimar Germany helped the Nazi party to get started.

I'm not saying that this makes them unfair, or that it mean's we shouldn't use them - I just thought someone ought to point this out.

The Nazis would have won under FPTP, indeed, since they got the pluarality of the vote in 1932 twice and 1933 (I think) they would have won a full majority both times and forced Hindenburg to appoint him as Chancellor much earlier. But I digress.

Let's have a list of some of the countries that use PR:

Scotland
Tasmania
Germany
Sweden
Denmark
Wales
Ireland
Northern Ireland
Spain
Luxembourg
Finland
Austria
New Zealand
Italy
Israel
Mexico
the Netherlands
Belgium
Russia
Ukraine
Norway
Partially in Japan and Taiwan.

And thay're not all falling into dictatorships.

Instead of bringing up the Nazis, you could instead look at where PR is used in modern politics - and you'll find that the European Parliament uses it, as do many European countries for their own parliaments. It seems to be a success in these countries, so we should try it here. Sticking with something because it has apparently worked for centuries is a bad idea.
STV all the way!

I would go UKIP for their Anti-EU thing, but they would do even more damage to the country than the EU is doing right now so better go Conservative.

I accidently went Labour, forgetting that that moron Gordon Brown sold all our Gold reserves, thinking comodities had gone past their sale buy date. The idiot, sold them for so little money ITS FUCKING GOLD. Bloody pisses me off the incompetant troll.

Proportional elections are the most fair ones. Does anyone disagree?

Yes, since with proportional representation destroys the link between constituency and MP. The parties can get anyone they like into Parliament, in a constituency system the politician is accountable directly to his constituents, democracy in action is cabinet members going back to their constituency and listening to Mrs Davies who's 97 and has a hearing problem because she's turned up to their surgery. (yes I realise this is an idealised view).

Politicians need to be directly accountabe to someone, hence why the constituency system is needed. As someone gave an example of, an MP was elected to fight for a local matter, proportional representation takes politics and politicians away from the people and grass roots.

This place is full of modern liberals, its scary!

This place is full of modern liberals, its scary!

I don't like it when people get classed, its annoying. Just manage a government well, and run a country well, and keep the people and all that. Be ethical etc, then does it matter what type of Politics it is?

Yes, since with proportional representation destroys the link between constituency and MP.
No. It. Doesn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Additional_member_system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Transferable_Vote
http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/votingsystems/systems3.htm#STV

Examples of two proportional systems that do not break the MP-Constituency link.

The parties can get anyone they like into Parliament,
Only under closed list systems. Under open list, AMS and STV systems that doesn't happen.

in a constituency system the politician is accountable directly to his constituents,
I call bullshit. In what way is a local demagouge in a safe seat in any way accountable? In the 'key marginals' which decide the outcoem of the election that might be true, but not in the vast majority of cases.

democracy in action is cabinet members going back to their constituency and listening to Mrs Davies who's 97 and has a hearing problem because she's turned up to their surgery. (yes I realise this is an idealised view).
And those of us that don't have MPs in the cabinet?

Politicians need to be directly accountabe to someone, hence why the constituency system is needed.
I agree. But this and PR and not mutially exclusive.

As someone gave an example of, an MP was elected to fight for a local matter, proportional representation takes politics and politicians away from the people and grass roots.
No it doesn't. Politics in Ireland is even more parochial than in the UK because TDs actually have to get off thgeir backsides and work to get elected. PR is perfectly grassroots, unlike in FPTP where we have safe seats with candidates dictated by party Bureaucrats in London.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1il_%C3%89ireann

I don't think I can really pigeonhole myself somewhere, as I'm a bit of a centrist really, with leaps out into both left and right, though probably heading more right than left as of lately...
Having said that, I have no real confidence in Labour or Tony Blair, I'd prefer the Lib Dems for my local council elections (their environmental and local concerns), and I think David Cameron may have some good ideas coming up. So as in the last elections, I will probably vote Tory when the next ones come up.

But in any case where I live, it's a Tory stronghold, Lib Dems are a distant second and their candidate in the last election was a dithering old bloke who paled in significance to the youthful vigour of the Tory guy (oh wait, that was in the council elections I think), and Labour doesn't factor in really. Oh, and the independent chap had no real chance.
No one though has fixed up all the potholes on the roads, which they all promised :(

Introducing proportional representation means the smaller parties suddenly start getting more seats. So, seeing as turkeys don't tend to vote for Christmas, it'll be a bit tricky to get the government to bring it in.

Possibly this is what Vernasia meant about the Nazis - PR does give more power to the marginal parties, which tend to be the more extreme parties.

My main gripe with the UK voting system is that it fails to recognise that people vote for the party, not the person. So if you vote Labour and then three weeks later your Labour MP suddenly decides to join the BNP, you're stuck with it.

Introducing proportional representation means the smaller parties suddenly start getting more seats. So, seeing as turkeys don't tend to vote for Christmas, it'll be a bit tricky to get the government to bring it in.

Possibly this is what Vernasia meant about the Nazis - PR does give more power to the marginal parties, which tend to be the more extreme parties.

It's exactilly what it means. Smaller parties will get moore power if the people vote for them. It's called democracy. It isn't democracy if 49% vote for a party but none of those votes count because the other party got 51% in that area.
Smaller parties don't need to be moore extreme than other parties and it's really up to the people to decide which party they'll vote for. In Sweden we have seven parties in the parliament and if a party gets 4% of the votes it will get in.

It's called democracy. It isn't democracy if 49% vote for a party but none of those votes count because the other party got 51% in that area.
Smaller parties don't need to be moore extreme than other parties and it's really up to the people to decide which party they'll vote for. In Sweden we have seven parties in the parliament and if a party gets 4% of the votes it will get in.

Chill, I was just making a point. I didn't offer any opinion about whether PR is a good thing or not.
While smaller parties aren't in any way obliged to be extreme, it's certainly the case in the UK that they tend to be. Look at the parties listed in the poll if you don't believe me.

The SDLP in Northern Ireland. SNP in Scotland. Plaid Cymru in Wales. Lib Dem in England.

The SDLP in Northern Ireland. SNP in Scotland. Plaid Cymru in Wales. Lib Dem in England.

:confused:
(How about that - first time I ever even attempted to use a smiley. Have to wait and see if it worked...)
Not sure if you're agreeing with me, disagreeing with me, half-agreeing with me, or just listing who you'd vote for if you lived in certain countries. I wouldn't call the Lib Dems extreme, but I wouldn't call them marginal either. And life's too short to start arguing over whether being pro-devolution counts as extremism or not.

Chill, I was just making a point. I didn't offer any opinion about whether PR is a good thing or not.
While smaller parties aren't in any way obliged to be extreme, it's certainly the case in the UK that they tend to be. Look at the parties listed in the poll if you don't believe me.
Greens?

Was just listing what I'd vote for. I live in the Republic of Ireland anyway (just 12 km from the border though so well in touch with Northern politics) and vote Green.

This might have allready been said and I missed it, but does anyone else find it slightly disturbing that the monster raving loonies apear to be more popular than labour?

woo my first post!

Was just listing what I'd vote for. I live in the Republic of Ireland anyway (just 12 km from the border though so well in touch with Northern politics) and vote Green.
And at least in the ROI you can vote Green and they might get in, and if they don't you can still put a second preference for Labour, FF or FG. :)

This might have allready been said and I missed it, but does anyone else find it slightly disturbing that the monster raving loonies apear to be more popular than labour?

woo my first post!

Welcome to NS:D

And at least in the ROI you can vote Green and they might get in, and if they don't you can still put a second preference for Labour, FF or FG. :)

Must say I do love the old PR - STV voting system!

Greens?

That's the kind of party I was referring to - their policies are very extreme, just not in a jackboots and burning crosses way. With PR, they might well get a seat or two.

Must say I do love the old PR - STV voting system!
We British philistines are still stuck with FPTP, and it makes baby Jesus cry.:(

That's the kind of party I was referring to - their policies are very extreme, just not in a jackboots and burning crosses way. With PR, they might well get a seat or two.
The greens aren't extreme at all. Have a look at their manifesto (http://www.greenparty.org.uk/files/manifesto/Manifesto%2005.pdf), for example. This is what FPTP does: gives a political monopoly to 2-3 big parties while labelling outsiders as extremists.

That's the kind of party I was referring to - their policies are very extreme, just not in a jackboots and burning crosses way. With PR, they might well get a seat or two.

Jesus you should spend a while living in Northern Ireland if you think that the Greens are extreme!

Must say I do love the old PR - STV voting system!You wouldn't say that if you'd ever been involved in an STV count. Now that makes baby Jesus cry.

Whilst the idea of having fractions of votes works well in theory... in reality it makes your head hurt.

This might have allready been said and I missed it, but does anyone else find it slightly disturbing that the monster raving loonies apear to be more popular than labour?

Don't knock it. First election I was eligible to vote in, the BNP came in slightly behind Ronnie the Rhino's Rhino Party.

The greens aren't extreme at all. Have a look at their manifesto (http://www.greenparty.org.uk/files/manifesto/Manifesto%2005.pdf), for example. This is what FPTP does: gives a political monopoly to 2-3 big parties while labelling outsiders as extremists.

[Sigh]
Extreme, meaning radical.
You are the one applying negative connotations to the word, not me.

At the next election I shall be voting for the monster raving loonies, if they field a candidate in my constituency :)

[Sigh]
Extreme, meaning radical.
You are the one applying negative connotations to the word, not me.
You were the one who used extreme in the context of the KKK. And why would you want 'radical' parties not to enter parliament?

You were the one who used extreme in the context of the KKK. And why would you want 'radical' parties not to enter parliament?

[Deeper sigh]
Yes and also, in that very same post, in the context of the Green Party. Both are extreme - both are at extreme ends of the political spectrum.
And I did not, at any point, say that I wanted to keep radical parties out of parliament. As it happens, I don't.
In fact, I don't recall expressing any actual political views at any point, all I've done is make a couple of observations about how the system operates.

Introducing proportional representation means the smaller parties suddenly start getting more seats. So, seeing as turkeys don't tend to vote for Christmas, it'll be a bit tricky to get the government to bring it in.

Possibly this is what Vernasia meant about the Nazis - PR does give more power to the marginal parties, which tend to be the more extreme parties.

My main gripe with the UK voting system is that it fails to recognise that people vote for the party, not the person. So if you vote Labour and then three weeks later your Labour MP suddenly decides to join the BNP, you're stuck with it.

This is exactly what Vernasia meant about the Nazis.

This is exactly what Vernasia meant about the Nazis.

Woo hoo! I was right about something!
Plus there's someone else on this thread who actually understands what I'm trying to say.

To celebrate, I'm going to get off the internet and go and play with bits of old motorbike.

Well, the Lib Dems have been ahead for quite a while now, so the people who voted don't seem to be particularly representative of the electorate at large. The Greens would probably be up there too if I'd remembered to include them.

Slightly more worrying, it must be said, is the fact that the Monster Raving Loony Party is now ranked second, and so above both the parties with any real power.

No votes for UKIP or Veritas - hardly surprising given that they have one good policy between them, and I wonder who the two people were who registered votes for apathy?

Woo hoo! I was right about something!
Plus there's someone else on this thread who actually understands what I'm trying to say.

To celebrate, I'm going to get off the internet and go and play with bits of old motorbike.

:)

Well, the Lib Dems have been ahead for quite a while now, so the people who voted don't seem to be particularly representative of the electorate at large. The Greens would probably be up there too if I'd remembered to include them.

Slightly more worrying, it must be said, is the fact that the Monster Raving Loony Party is now ranked second, and so above both the parties with any real power.

No votes for UKIP or Veritas - hardly surprising given that they have one good policy between them, and I wonder who the two people were who registered votes for apathy?

I think a lot of people who would vote for the Lib Dems don't becuase there A) Stuck in a safe seat adn don't btoher...

or B) Vote tactically.

I think a lot of people who would vote for the Lib Dems don't becuase there A) Stuck in a safe seat adn don't btoher...

or B) Vote tactically.

Another theory (though it doesn't explain the situation at the moment) is that the Lib Dems will never get in because, as soon as there is a chance that they might, people will stop voting for them.

In other words, people are happily to vote for higher taxes, until there is a chance they'll actually have to pay them.

Labour because there the better of 3 evils sadly

Liberals arent evil :)
Conservatives are... um... ok we're evil but we admit it.

SNP in Scotland, Plaid Cymru in Wales, SF in Northern Ireland and RESPECT in England.