NationStates Jolt Archive

Yahoo article here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20061215/hl_hsn/kidswithhighiqsgrowuptobevegetarians). This was certainly the first I'd heard of this, even though I did test with a high IQ as a kid and am a vegetarian.

As far as the study goes... 8200 respondents is quite a number. Pretty good sample size there. Note, please, that what it's saying isn't that vegetarianism makes you smart; it's that smart kids grow up to become vegetarians more often.

So would you agree with the premise that cotting back on the meat consumption is the smart thing to do, or do you have a different opinion?

For there to be a useful correlation IQ would have to actually measure something other than one's ability to take an IQ test.

well it does measure penis size and ability to grow hair on one's chest. But I don't think those have anything to do with tofu. I could be wrong.

Well, lets assume that people with a higher IQ will tend to be better employed...it isn't particularly cheap to be vegitarian...I can make a hotdog and get a cheaper and more nutritional meal out of it than I can with anything strictly vegitarian/vegan.

Additionally, I'm not convinced that the two are really all that related. Do they correlate? Yes. But, as always, correlation doesn't equal causation.

Personally, I was raised vegitarian. I now eat a large amount of meat. My conclusions? Meat is good.

For there to be a useful correlation IQ would have to actually measure something other than one's ability to take an IQ test.
:-P But that's how IQ is defined! The ability to take an IQ test!

Well. It correlates to a bajillion things, and is somewhat related to actual intelligence, albeit loosely IMO... so, do you think it's really smart to cut back on meat consumption or not? Well, Cthulhu?

Well. It correlates to a bajillion things, and is somewhat related to actual intelligence, albeit loosely IMO... so, do you think it's really smart to cut back on meat consumption or not? Well, Cthulhu?

Depends on the person. I can't safely cut back due to health reasons.

I would like to see their methods.

cutting meat from your diet is a bad idea for beginners. It's actually very hard to get a decent balance of proteins if you go vegetarian. I did it for a bit in the army (for health reasons) and it was a real bear getting the stuff the nutritionist said I had to have all the time. beans are good though...especially soy.

Beeing a vegetarian is very smart although I'm not a vegetarian. I don't think it makes you smarter as a person and making an IQ-test isn't smart , it's a waste of time.

Beeing a vegetarian is very smart although I'm not a vegetarian. I don't think it makes you smarter as a person and making an IQ-test isn't smart , it's a waste of time.

How is being a vegetarian "very smart", or, really, any smarter than not being one?:confused:

How is being a vegetarian "very smart", or, really, any smarter than not being one?:confused:

Because it takes a lot moore energy to produce meat than vegetarian food.

Because it takes a lot moore energy to produce meat than vegetarian food.

And, in turn, provides us with alot more energy per pound...

yes, I know. for each level of the food chain, you lose 90% of the energy of the previous level. Meat is not efficient to produce. However, in terms of energy gained from a pound of meat, it is more than a pound of say, lettuce. I'm not a bunny, and I don't eat my own feces, sadly. While meat is inefficient to produce, vegetables are inefficient to digest. Ergo, it is a tradeoff. Put more energy into production, and need to eat less, or less energy into production and need to eat more. Additionally, that meat will be produced regardless of if I eat it or not. Might as well enjoy a steak.

Maybe it is better for the environment at large. However, it is both more expensive and more difficult to go vegetarian.

Maybe it is better for the environment at large. However, it is both more expensive and more difficult to go vegetarian.
More expensive? Heck no. Grocery bills usually drop when you go vegetarian.

Difficult? Perhaps so.

IMO, most people do eat too much meat for their health these days, and it's smart to cut back on it as a result - although by no means necessary to cut it entirely from your diet. Moderation is fine.

okay... so there are more smart vegetarians than smart omnivores...

doesnt exactly make me want to jump out of my seat and buy lettuce by the pound from my supermarket. you can now get e. coli more from plants than from beef.

im going to cook beef for a potluck for my workplace just to spurn this.

i like how the article doesnt even give a base IQ number to go off of... what IQ level are we talking about?

And, in turn, provides us with alot more energy per pound...

yes, I know. for each level of the food chain, you lose 90% of the energy of the previous level. Meat is not efficient to produce. However, in terms of energy gained from a pound of meat, it is more than a pound of say, lettuce. I'm not a bunny, and I don't eat my own feces, sadly. While meat is inefficient to produce, vegetables are inefficient to digest. Ergo, it is a tradeoff. Put more energy into production, and need to eat less, or less energy into production and need to eat more. Additionally, that meat will be produced regardless of if I eat it or not. Might as well enjoy a steak.

Maybe it is better for the environment at large. However, it is both more expensive and more difficult to go vegetarian.

It's a very bad and expensive tradeoff because the energy you gain is much smaller than the energy it took to produce that meat. You could easily satisfy that need of energy and protein with eating vegetarian food. My friend is vegetarian, he gets all the energy he need and I'm sure his meals cost at least 50% less energy than mine.

were moving towards something out of "Soylent Green"...

I might be wrong, but since the human brain is the biggest energy consumer of the human body, wouldn't it be wise to eat food which is high on said energy?

And further more, as I understood it, they were smart first, vegetarian later, which make sense, cause many intelligent people I know choose to be vegeterian because they know better.
As for me, I can't stop being an omnivore.... although I can give up on beef, and keep to chicken and fish (on the last note..... sushi.... yum)

what IQ level are we talking about?

According to the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6180753.stm?ls), vegetarian men have an average IQ of 106, non-veggies 101. Veggie women 104, non-veggie women 99.

That yahoo article just looked like a load of rubbish

For there to be a useful correlation IQ would have to actually measure something other than one's ability to take an IQ test.

Quite.

There's a very good reason that certain cultures score higher on IQ tests than others (the classic example being Ashkenazi Jews), and that's because the culture is more conducive to the IQ test.

Vegetarians were more likely to be female, of higher social class and better educated, but IQ was still a significant predictor of being vegetarian after adjustment for these factors, Gale said.
That's the cincher, in my opinion.
I certainly believe that they can adjust for female and higher social class, but for better educated?
How many people are there seriously going to be that are more intelligent than average yet have a sub-average education? Some, sure, but few.

And to me, education would be central point here. Which, again, kinda comes with intelligence.
And I don't mean education in the sense that your education tells you to become a vegetarian. I mean simply that the social environment in higher education (or, in my country with it's anachronistic tri-furcated school system, already in those schools leading toward university) is conducive to all kinds of social activism simply because social problems are discussed and studied a lot and everybody around you is doing it, too.
I mean, it's no coincidence that most university students (at least here) are on the definite left of the political spectrum.

So yeah, there have been times when I've felt almost reactionary and self-indulgent because I'm not a vegetarian, simply because most everybody else was.

Now, to generalize and stereotype just as much in the other direction, I don't really see a high-school drop out working as a day labourer being in an environment that would in any way be conducive to him becoming a vegetarian. In fact, I'm pretty damn sure he'd be the laughing stock of most of his co-workers and friends if he was.


More expensive? Heck no. Grocery bills usually drop when you go vegetarian.
That depends.

This goes for my country only, but as a non-vegetarian, meat products are far from my biggest food expenditure, simply because I hardly ever buy meat but usually just ham or cold cuts or stuff, which can be very cheap here.
Cheaper than replacing them all with cheese or vegetarian sandwich spreads should I go vegetarian.

Also, most vegetarians (and, really, lots of non-vegetarians) here try to eat healthy altogether, meaning they often rightfully eschew supermarket veggies and buy organic produce as often as money will allow.

Maybe a fairly large number of intelligent people become vegitarians, but, as previously mentioned, that is just a corellation. Not all smart people are vegitarians (I have an above average IQ, no joke), and not all vegitarians are smart (PETA).

It's the same skewed results as the study of "Supermales" (XYY chromosome set) and agressiveness. They looked at a fair number of XYYs in prisons and concluded that they were more prone to criminal behavior. The study did not take into account all of the XYYs outside of prison. In the same way, there are a lot of intelligent omnivors. Now what did I do with that bacon?

I sincerely doubt that vegetarians are smarter than I am. They don't eat flesh, afterall. How stupid is that?!

More expensive? Heck no. Grocery bills usually drop when you go vegetarian.

Difficult? Perhaps so.

IMO, most people do eat too much meat for their health these days, and it's smart to cut back on it as a result - although by no means necessary to cut it entirely from your diet. Moderation is fine.

I eat less meat than most people seem to, partially because I've never really liked the way hamburgers and cheeseburgers taste, and I don't really like steak either. I don't want to cut meat entirely from my diet because I'm still growing and I'm underweight.

The smart thing for most people to do in my opinion is to cut down their meat intake dramatically, perhaps eating a portion of meat or fish once or twice a week. I think there are some amino acids that are virtually impossible to get enough of (or get at all (?)) if you are vegetarian.

With regards to not getting enough energy from vegetables as opposed to meat... are you batshit insane? Meat contains no carbohydrates. It contains protein and fat (which is why you lose weight on the Atkins diet, because sourcing energy from protein and fat is inefficient). If you want an efficient source of energy chow down on some potatoes, rice, wheat, or sugar cane.

The only real nutrient I ever have trouble getting enough of is Iron, which is why I have a small amount of red meat every so often. Otherwise I have a vegetarian diet (vegans can rot in hell, there ain't no way I am ever going to give up milk, yoghurt or cheese).

The smart thing for most people to do in my opinion is to cut down their meat intake dramatically, perhaps eating a portion of meat or fish once or twice a week. I think there are some amino acids that are virtually impossible to get enough of (or get at all (?)) if you are vegetarian.

With regards to not getting enough energy from vegetables as opposed to meat... are you batshit insane? Meat contains no carbohydrates. It contains protein and fat (which is why you lose weight on the Atkins diet, because sourcing energy from protein and fat is inefficient). If you want an efficient source of energy chow down on some potatoes, rice, wheat, or sugar cane.

The only real nutrient I ever have trouble getting enough of is Iron, which is why I have a small amount of red meat every so often. Otherwise I have a vegetarian diet (vegans can rot in hell, there ain't no way I am ever going to give up milk, yoghurt or cheese).

Atkins? Wasn't he the guy, who died short time ago with heavy overweight?

it's that smart kids grow up to become vegetarians more often.
i'd dismiss the problem saying "bullshit".

but, hey, i wouldn't want look rude. Or would i?

Atkins? Wasn't he the guy, who died short time ago with heavy overweight?Yes, he recently died, but wasn't overweight. He hit his head when he slipped on some ice in NYC. In went into a coma, and subsequently died of kidney failure. Your kidney's are responsible for getting rid of excess fluid. Hence if they fail you can gain weight very quickly due to fluid retention. Atkins only weighed about 90kg when admitted to hospital, but weighed about 115kg at time of death. I would hardly blame Atkins himself for that weight gain.

As a kid, we had beef quite a lot -- if I have it once a week now, it's a lot.

I tend to eat more chicken and fish and eggs now, along with a lot of veggies.

If you want good vegetarian fare, introduce yourself to Indian food -- the varieties of flavors are AMAZING, and the use of legumes and nut pastes mean you get a lot of protein.

Ah, another case of media exaggeration that points out to a very meager purported benefit.

I don't know why they should have media coverage for this. And difference of 6 to 7 IQ points? Come on. Perhaps the thing we should focus upon is the lack of people's common sense.

The study, even though it has 8,200 respondents, generated rather *useless results*. As an earlier poster said, correlation does not equal causation.

Basically, the hidden meaning behind this is "if your smart, you should be a vegan." Which is *expletive deleted* rubbish.

I wonder why they have to give this media coverage.

So would you agree with the premise that cotting back on the meat consumption is the smart thing to do, or do you have a different opinion?

No. Besides, this study is on vegetarianism, not "cutting back on meat consumption." It's implying that vegetarians have "cut back," whereas non-vegetarians are slobbering carnivores eating 20 kilograms of raw meat each day. :p

I doubt those results... in nature all veggie eating animals tend to be the less intelligent breeds, while all the smart animals are either carnivores or omnivores. Who is smarter, the wolf or the cow?

I'll stick to my omnivore diet.

*heads out to hunt down a mastodon* :)

would you agree with the premise that cotting back on the meat consumption is the smart thing to do

No, I wouldn't, not necessarily.

or do you have a different opinion?

Yes, yes I believe I do.

Well, lets assume that people with a higher IQ will tend to be better employed...it isn't particularly cheap to be vegitarian...I can make a hotdog and get a cheaper and more nutritional meal out of it than I can with anything strictly vegitarian/vegan.
It's a lot cheaper to be vegetarian than it is to eat meat. I've gone grocery shopping with roommates before and bought twice as much food as them for the same amount of money because they bought meat and I didn't.

Seriously, a bag of dried beans costs a dollar and you can get a lot of meals out of it, just throw in some veggies.

Well, lets assume that people with a higher IQ will tend to be better employed...it isn't particularly cheap to be vegitarian...I can make a hotdog and get a cheaper and more nutritional meal out of it than I can with anything strictly vegitarian/vegan.

Hotdogs aren't healthy. If you eat shit the meals are cheaper definatly but if you want to eat healthy then eating healthy vegitables is cheaper then a healthy meal with meat.

So would you agree with the premise that cotting back on the meat consumption is the smart thing to do, or do you have a different opinion?

After eating huge amounts of meat for a long time, I think it's safe to say that eating meat in moderation is the best way to go... For me, anyway. If my body feels like shit after I eat something, that means that I've either eaten too much, or it's just not the right thing to eat.

Sausage comes to mind.

The smart thing for most people to do in my opinion is to cut down their meat intake dramatically, perhaps eating a portion of meat or fish once or twice a week. I think there are some amino acids that are virtually impossible to get enough of (or get at all (?)) if you are vegetarian.

Some people eat too much meat, others do not. It all depends on your individual diet and your personal health. Personally, I am cutting way back on the red meats, practically eliminating the cured meats (lovely bacon), and eating more fish. This is mostly because of my own personal health status (getting leaner, lowering my cholesterol, etc) but I would advise most people to think about doing the same.

With regards to not getting enough energy from vegetables as opposed to meat... are you batshit insane? Meat contains no carbohydrates. It contains protein and fat (which is why you lose weight on the Atkins diet, because sourcing energy from protein and fat is inefficient). If you want an efficient source of energy chow down on some potatoes, rice, wheat, or sugar cane.

I highly recommend you take a course in basic nutrition. Seriously read up on it for your own health and to keep you from looking horribly ignorant by making comments like this one.

Of the three macronutrients, fat is by far the greatest source of calories. Period.

Protein and carbs work differently, and synergistically. It all depends on how you work out, what your day is like, how you eat, etc. Generally speaking, obese people loose weight on low carb diets because it cuts out the sugars people tend to consume in mass quantities. Sugar can be very rapidly digested, so if you eat large quantities your blood sugar spikes, and unless you are working out hardcore at the same time, it gets turned into fat (ok, a little simplistic, but hopefully sufficient).

Meat is the food that pushes animals over the edge in terms of intelligence. It is when animals started eating other animals that they had the energy to power larger brains (which are very energy intensive).

Everyone needs a good balance of carbs, proteins, and fats to be healthy – cut back too much on any of the macronutrients and your health does suffer.

The only real nutrient I ever have trouble getting enough of is Iron, which is why I have a small amount of red meat every so often. Otherwise I have a vegetarian diet (vegans can rot in hell, there ain't no way I am ever going to give up milk, yoghurt or cheese).

There are a few veggies that are high in iron You do not need to eat meat for iron at all (eat it because you enjoy it). Prunes, spinach, legumes, vegemite, etc are great sources of iron – just be careful what else you are eating. A big problems with iron deficiency is bioavailability, not the actual consuming of iron. It doesn’t help you if your body cannot absorb the iron you are ingesting. Vitamin C is something that helps iron absorption, where as substances found in things like unprocessed cereals (as in grains, not frosted flakes), teas, and even milk inhibit absorption. Ok, so it is not exactly the same, iron found in plants is slightly different than that found in animals, but is still just as good for the body though absorption is more easily inhibited by drinking tea and boosted by citric acid. So long as you watch what foods you are mixing, you really don’t need to eat meat (though I enjoy doing it).

And here you have a good explanation as to why vegetarians are smarter than non-vegies. It is survival of the fittest ;) If you are not fairly bright, you might not get good nutrition, and thus the lower end of the intelligence scale drops off because they are not paying close enough attention to their diet and micronutrient intakes. Smart vegetarians stay vegetarian, dumb vegetarians have to eat meat to stay healthy.

Well, lets assume that people with a higher IQ will tend to be better employed...it isn't particularly cheap to be vegitarian...I can make a hotdog and get a cheaper and more nutritional meal out of it than I can with anything strictly vegitarian/vegan.
What are you talking about? Meat is more expensive than vegetables, because it takes more money, labour and land to raise it.

More expensive? Heck no. Grocery bills usually drop when you go vegetarian.Well, depends what kind of meat. I can feed me and my four roommates 7 times a week on $80 or less with meat every night. Chicken, steak tips, ground beef, hot dogs/sausages/brauts...all very cheap. (this includes paper plates/paper towels/dish soap, etc in the grocery bill. Actual food is maybe $70 or $60)
Plus, after being raised on vegetables for so many years, I still detest them, and would have to work double-hard to choke down a meal of them.

IMO, most people do eat too much meat for their health these days, and it's smart to cut back on it as a result - although by no means necessary to cut it entirely from your diet. Moderation is fine.*shrug* We have bigger issues as far as health and diet go than how much meat people are eating. Not to mention, some meats are very healthy (chicken, lean cuts of beef, etc.)

It's a very bad and expensive tradeoff because the energy you gain is much smaller than the energy it took to produce that meat. You could easily satisfy that need of energy and protein with eating vegetarian food. My friend is vegetarian, he gets all the energy he need and I'm sure his meals cost at least 50% less energy than mine.I'm 6'2", 170 lbs. I would have to eat 6 vegetarian meals daily (believe me, I've done it recently) in order to maintain my current weight. And that was even with a "high protein" vegetarian meal. Guess what? Nothing, and I mean nothing, has as many complete proteins as a beef steak or similar.

It's a lot cheaper to be vegetarian than it is to eat meat. I've gone grocery shopping with roommates before and bought twice as much food as them for the same amount of money because they bought meat and I didn't.

Seriously, a bag of dried beans costs a dollar and you can get a lot of meals out of it, just throw in some veggies.I've found the opposite to be true. I cook for four bigger guys. Veggies and beans only go so far.

Hotdogs aren't healthy. If you eat shit the meals are cheaper definatly but if you want to eat healthy then eating healthy vegitables is cheaper then a healthy meal with meat.
Amazingly, not everyone gets the choice to "eat healthy". As I said before, it is cheaper to eat meat.
I'm not talking about filet mignon every night. What I do mean is that I can get a package of hotdogs from a wholesale place dirt cheap. Nuke two of those, throw it in a bun with ketchum and cheese. You have grain, vegetable, dairy, and meat, all for less than about $2. If you really need to cut back for a week, get the ketchup for McDonalds, drop the cheese and bun. Now, it is under $1.
When I say eating meat is cheaper, I mean that I can get a meal that someone could subsist off of for less than I could using vegetables.
I additionally disagree with the idea that a full vegetarian meal is cheaper than a full non-veg meal. I was raised vegetarian. I can easily make a weeks worth of meals that cost exactly the same as a week of vegetarian meals. Some of mine would be cheaper, and some of the other persons. But I could easily do it.

And no, I probably won't believe someone who tells me I can feed myself and my four roommates 7 days a week with just vegetables for less than $80/week ;)

I'm 6'2", 170 lbs. I would have to eat 6 vegetarian meals daily (believe me, I've done it recently) in order to maintain my current weight. And that was even with a "high protein" vegetarian meal. Guess what? Nothing, and I mean nothing, has as many complete proteins as a beef steak or similar.

Male metabolisms are quite the opposite of female metabolisms. If I were to become a vegetarian, I'd probably have to eat the six meals a day like you did. And with eating all of this meat, I'm still struggling to stay at 140 pounds, and I'm 5'11" in my shoes.

What are you talking about? Meat is more expensive than vegetables, because it takes more money and land to raise it.

You are forgetting that the meatmarket is huge, while farmers that aim for nutritionally balanced and animal friendly crops (no pesticides for instance) are relatively rare. And that vegetarians tend to pay more attention to the balancing of their diets than most others.

We know from various semi-scientifc studies that humans who want to live long, healthy lives should enjoy a steady diet of nuts, berries and vegetables.

But who wants to live forever if you can't have the occasional double cheddar cheeseburger smothered in onions with french fries, a fried chicken pattie and bacon on top!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Male metabolisms are quite the opposite of female metabolisms. If I were to become a vegetarian, I'd probably have to eat the six meals a day like you did. And with eating all of this meat, I'm still struggling to stay at 140 pounds, and I'm 5'11" in my shoes.

Exactly. Heck, even with meat I struggle to keep and gain weight

We know from various semi-scientifc studies that humans who want to live long, healthy lives should enjoy a steady diet of nuts, berries and vegetables.

And some meat. How much exactly is not really clear, but definately less than 7 times a week.

Exactly. Heck, even with meat I struggle to keep and gain weight

I'm the only person I know who can eat a Double Bacon Cheddar Melt from Wendy's and lose two pounds about three hours after doing so.

I'm the only person I know who can eat a Double Bacon Cheddar Melt from Wendy's and lose two pounds about three hours after doing so.

Pleased to meet ya. Maybe we can start a club.

All of my female friends hate me. I have eaten a family sized bag of potato chips in one sitting and lost weight from it.

Last summer, because of work and time restrictions, I had atleast a meal a day from McDonalds, BK, or Wendys. For that entire month, I didn't gain weight. When I went back to my usual diet, I dropped 5 lbs because my metabolism had spiked.

Male metabolisms are quite the opposite of female metabolisms. If I were to become a vegetarian, I'd probably have to eat the six meals a day like you did. And with eating all of this meat, I'm still struggling to stay at 140 pounds, and I'm 5'11" in my shoes.
I'm male and vegetarian, but don't need 6 meals a day.

I don't think that sex has much to do with it.

I'm the only person I know who can eat a Double Bacon Cheddar Melt from Wendy's and lose two pounds about three hours after doing so.
I was like that up until I turned 20. :(

I'm male and vegetarian, but don't need 6 meals a day.

I don't think that sex has much to do with it.

It is related. Men have more muscle in relation to fat than women. Particularly for a bigger guy (taller and muscular, not fatter), more protein will be needed, along with more carbs and fats just to run their body.

From personal experience, I was a scrawny guy untill I started eating meat. My metabolism is still very high, and I really just need the protein. I don't have the time, money, or resources to eat more than I already do, so I need the protein in an easy-to-do form. That form is meat.

I've found the opposite to be true. I cook for four bigger guys. Veggies and beans only go so far.
I cook for me, if I make some soup with a cup or two of beans, a tomato, an onion, a couple cloves of garlic and whatever other veggies I have on hand it lasts me 4-5 meals usually.
Veggies are a fuckload cheaper than meat, seriously. I mean, compare the cost of a sack of potatos or a giant bag of rice to the cost of meat (if you're going to bitch about not being full, potatos will take care of that).

Amazingly, not everyone gets the choice to "eat healthy". As I said before, it is cheaper to eat meat.
No it isn't.
http://moneyandvalues.blogspot.com/2006/09/eating-less-or-no-meat-frugal-choice.html
http://www.babycenter.com.au/baby/familyfinance/saveongrocerybill/
http://www.fabulousfoods.com/school/cstips/cutgrocerybill.html
http://www.stretcher.com/stories/970310e.cfm

A quick google search on how to reduce a grocery bill is all it takes to show that you're totally wrong on this. Also, it's cheaper to eat healthier than it is to eat hotdogs (which aren't healthy at all) every night.

And no, I probably won't believe someone who tells me I can feed myself and my four roommates 7 days a week with just vegetables for less than $80/week ;)
I spend $20 a week on my food, but then I also tend to find out about free food opportunities on campus and I pack my own peanut butter and jelly lunches. The only times my grocery bill goes much above that is when I deceide to splurge on something like cheese or I run out of olive oil.

I always find it amusing that the leftists who jump up and down about humans being animals of evolution are the same ones that insist that we don't fit in the category of "animals that eat other animals."

I always find it amusing that the leftists who jump up and down about humans being animals of evolution are the same ones that insist that we don't fit in the category of "animals that eat other animals."
Where the hell is anyone insisting that?

This topic has involved a discussion on any correlation between intelligence and the decision to abstain from meat, a discussion on whether it's cheaper to eat meat or not, a discussion on how much one must eat on a vegetarian diet compared to a non-vegetarian diet, but no discussion on the ethics of eating meat. If you're going to go on with your "leftists are stupid hypocrites" nonsense, perhaps you should actually read a thread and find a legitimate reason to make such a statement.

Where the hell is anyone insisting that?

This topic has involved a discussion on any correlation between intelligence and the decision to abstain from meat, a discussion on whether it's cheaper to eat meat or not, a discussion on how much one must eat on a vegetarian diet compared to a non-vegetarian diet, but no discussion on the ethics of eating meat.

Though the ethical aspect should be explored to see if it has anything to do with the supposed correlation.

I cook for me, if I make some soup with a cup or two of beans, a tomato, an onion, a couple cloves of garlic and whatever other veggies I have on hand it lasts me 4-5 meals usually.
Veggies are a fuckload cheaper than meat, seriously. I mean, compare the cost of a sack of potatos to the cost of meat (if you're going to bitch about not being full, potatos will take care of that). Yes, a sack of potatos is great to fill you up, as are breads (actually, despite the fact that mentioning this goes against my arguement, but there is a type of bread called seitan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seitan) that can partially replace meat). However, ignoring seitan, most of these are not sufficient by themselves. A potato is not a meal in and of itself. With that sack would have to go something more.


No it isn't.
http://moneyandvalues.blogspot.com/2006/09/eating-less-or-no-meat-frugal-choice.html
http://www.babycenter.com.au/baby/familyfinance/saveongrocerybill/
http://www.fabulousfoods.com/school/cstips/cutgrocerybill.html
http://www.stretcher.com/stories/970310e.cfm

A quick google search on how to reduce a grocery bill is all it takes to show that you're totally wrong on this. Also, it's cheaper to eat healthier than it is to eat hotdogs (which aren't healthy at all) every night. Don't have time right now to look at those, but I'll take a look maybe tonight if I can get back on here


I spend $20 a week on my food, but then I also tend to find out about free food opportunities on campus and I pack my own peanut butter and jelly lunches. The only times my grocery bill goes much above that is when I deceide to splurge on something like cheese or I run out of olive oil.
That is exactly what I spend. This includes basics such as milk, eggs, and juice, cleaning/paper products (paper plates, dish soap, sponges[usually not more than two or three of these a week]), and then dinners. We spend $80 split four ways, or just about $20 a person. Same as you, the only time we go over this is when we run out of lots of little things or one or two big things (cooking oil, olive oil, etc). And that is with a meat dish nearly every night.

Though the ethical aspect should be explored to see if it has anything to do with the supposed correlation.
But that hasn't been brought up as a topic of discussion, despite what this particular poster is claiming.

Also, I think the correlation that the article (and some people in this thread) were trying to draw is that more intelligent people look after their health and tend to go for vegetarian diets which tend to be healthier.

Also, I think the correlation that the article (and some people in this thread) were trying to draw is that more intelligent people look after their health and tend to go for vegetarian diets which tend to be healthier.

Looking at the vegetarians I know that seems to not be the case. They all decided to be vegetarian for various moral reasons, not because it was healthier.
After becoming vegetarian however they did spend considerably more time on balancing their diets than before.

Yes, a sack of potatos is great to fill you up, as are breads (actually, despite the fact that mentioning this goes against my arguement, but there is a type of bread called seitan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seitan) that can partially replace meat). However, ignoring seitan, most of these are not sufficient by themselves. A potato is not a meal in and of itself. With that sack would have to go something more.
I'm not saying you should eat potatos by themselves, but spending $5 on a 10 lb sack of potatos and having some potatos as a side dish and then you'll get filled up.

Don't have time right now to look at those, but I'll take a look maybe tonight if I can get back on here
Ok, well each of those articles mentions that one way to reduce the grocery bill is to have at least one vegetarian meal a week and generally reduce the meat consumption.

That is exactly what I spend. This includes basics such as milk, eggs, and juice, cleaning/paper products (paper plates, dish soap, sponges[usually not more than two or three of these a week]), and then dinners. We spend $80 split four ways, or just about $20 a person. Same as you, the only time we go over this is when we run out of lots of little things or one or two big things (cooking oil, olive oil, etc). And that is with a meat dish nearly every night.
I really get the feeling based on your description of eating hot dogs that these meals you're eating are a lot less healthy than the meals I'm eating.

But that hasn't been brought up as a topic of discussion, despite what this particular poster is claiming.

Also, I think the correlation that the article (and some people in this thread) were trying to draw is that more intelligent people look after their health and tend to go for vegetarian diets which tend to be healthier.
That is what I got from the article as well. This brings us again back to the ability to afford food...even if I was wrong about meat being cheaper (and I will try to look at those sites later...I'm just about to scamper off to study now). When you can hardly afford to feed your family, eating healthy isn't going to be your biggest concern.

The fact of the matter is, you can make perfectly healthy meals using meat or not using meat. You can make entirely unhealthy meals with both as well.

What about those with the high IQ who still eat meat? Are they buying leaner cuts? Is their meat intake at all reduced? What kind of meat are they buying?

Looking at the vegetarians I know that seems to not be the case. They all decided to be vegetarian for various moral reasons, not because it was healthier.
After becoming vegetarian however they did spend considerably more time on balancing their diets than before.
Do you not know too many vegetarians? I know at least two who are vegetarian for environmental reasons, one vegan for the same reason.
I deceided to be a vegetarian for ethical reasons, but now that I am, a big part of why I'm staying vegetarian is that it's better for the environment and another part is that it's a whole lot cheaper than eating meat (despite what our friend Sarkhann claims). I maybe spend more time making meals than non-vegetarians, but that's a fairly recent thing and it's just that I'm trying to eat healthier.

I'm not saying you should eat potatos by themselves, but spending $5 on a 10 lb sack of potatos and having some potatos as a side dish and then you'll get filled up.and the rest of that meal would most likely be of similar cost and nutrition


Ok, well each of those articles mentions that one way to reduce the grocery bill is to have at least one vegetarian meal a week and generally reduce the meat consumption. ahh...great. I'll definatly look.


I really get the feeling based on your description of eating hot dogs that these meals you're eating are a lot less healthy than the meals I'm eating.
That isn't what I eat. Last nights dinner was hamburgers, hotdogs, fries, and garlic bread (we're trying to clean out the fridge by Tuesday). Night before that, meatloaf and couscous. Chicken cutlets, cube steak, brauts, sausage and peppers, parmesean chicken tenders, pasta, fajitas, tacos...those are our standard meals.

The hot dog thing was an example of how cheap you could go...not indicative of what I eat.

Do you not know too many vegetarians? I know at least two who are vegetarian for environmental reasons, one vegan for the same reason.

I know a few dozen - one of them being my girlfriend ;)
I also put environmental reasons under moral reasons in my mind - you apparantly disagree ?

That is what I got from the article as well. This brings us again back to the ability to afford food...even if I was wrong about meat being cheaper (and I will try to look at those sites later...I'm just about to scamper off to study now). When you can hardly afford to feed your family, eating healthy isn't going to be your biggest concern.
It's a lot cheaper to eat healthy than it is to eat unhealthy foods, I mean, buying a bunch of rice and veggies is a lot cheaper than buying something like kraft dinner or other garbage, frozen veggies are dirt cheap et c.

The fact of the matter is, you can make perfectly healthy meals using meat or not using meat. You can make entirely unhealthy meals with both as well.
Yes, but eating too much meat is really quite bad for you in general, and as mentioned in the article, vegetarians are at lower risk of cardiovascular disease and the like..

What about those with the high IQ who still eat meat? Are they buying leaner cuts? Is their meat intake at all reduced? What kind of meat are they buying?
The article mentioned that "vegetarians" who ate chicken and fish also fell into the group with higher IQs. I put vegetarian in quotes there because if you eat chicken or fish, you're not a vegetarian.

I know a few dozen. And put environmental reasons under moral ;)
Oh, I see... I guess they could be categorized like that.

I generally think of moral reasons being more towards the cruelty to animals and general ethics of eating them while environmental reasons are more practical and readily apparent (and proveable).

Some people eat too much meat, others do not. It all depends on your individual diet and your personal health. Personally, I am cutting way back on the red meats, practically eliminating the cured meats (lovely bacon), and eating more fish. This is mostly because of my own personal health status (getting leaner, lowering my cholesterol, etc) but I would advise most people to think about doing the same.



I highly recommend you take a course in basic nutrition. Seriously read up on it for your own health and to keep you from looking horribly ignorant by making comments like this one.That's mostly likely because I am ignorant. I know a couple of the basics, but the depth of my learning lies else where.Of the three macronutrients, fat is by far the greatest source of calories. Period.Woah, you seem to very right there. Over twice the energy density.Protein and carbs work differently, and synergistically. It all depends on how you work out, what your day is like, how you eat, etc. Generally speaking, obese people loose weight on low carb diets because it cuts out the sugars people tend to consume in mass quantities. Sugar can be very rapidly digested, so if you eat large quantities your blood sugar spikes, and unless you are working out hardcore at the same time, it gets turned into fat (ok, a little simplistic, but hopefully sufficient).

Meat is the food that pushes animals over the edge in terms of intelligence. It is when animals started eating other animals that they had the energy to power larger brains (which are very energy intensive). I'm going to have to call you here. I seem to be finding on the internet that the brain is only able to source energy from glucose. I also seem to be finding that protein can processed to form glucose, but the same is not true of fat. I believe this is because some amino acids contain glucose - such as acetylglucosamine. Hence I put it to you that it was something other than energy that was present within meat that allowed higher development of omnivrous animals.Everyone needs a good balance of carbs, proteins, and fats to be healthy – cut back too much on any of the macronutrients and your health does suffer.



There are a few veggies that are high in iron You do not need to eat meat for iron at all (eat it because you enjoy it). Prunes, spinach, legumes, vegemite, etc are great sources of iron – just be careful what else you are eating. A big problems with iron deficiency is bioavailability, not the actual consuming of iron. It doesn’t help you if your body cannot absorb the iron you are ingesting. Vitamin C is something that helps iron absorption, where as substances found in things like unprocessed cereals (as in grains, not frosted flakes), teas, and even milk inhibit absorption. Ok, so it is not exactly the same, iron found in plants is slightly different than that found in animals, but is still just as good for the body though absorption is more easily inhibited by drinking tea and boosted by citric acid. So long as you watch what foods you are mixing, you really don’t need to eat meat (though I enjoy doing it).Tea inhibits absorbtion of iron you say? That might be why I have trouble getting enough iron in my diet. I'm pretty sure I get enough citric acid as I eat a lot of citrus fruits and tomatoes because I trouble getting iron in my diet.And here you have a good explanation as to why vegetarians are smarter than non-vegies. It is survival of the fittest ;) If you are not fairly bright, you might not get good nutrition, and thus the lower end of the intelligence scale drops off because they are not paying close enough attention to their diet and micronutrient intakes. Smart vegetarians stay vegetarian, dumb vegetarians have to eat meat to stay healthy.After all that lovely advice, you come up with an ad-hominem. I am shocked sir. Did it ever occur to you that I'm lazy, not dumb. I don't can't be bothered to carefully plan a diet so I just eat a couple of things that I know will make asorbing iron much easier. Oh, and buying red meat means I don't have to trek as far to buy food. There is no local green grocer, and the local tiny supermarket ocassionally has a single bag of spinach if I'm lucky and I don't think I've ever seen any lentils on sale. It is tiny! Only place I know that does sell legumes is about a 15 minute bicyle ride away and they sell the stuff in 5kilo bags and 10 kilo bags. Hah, you gotta be joking if you think I could get that back on my bike. Especially I'm at the top of a hill, the shop is a the bottom of the hill.

I do eat meat because I enjoy it. I just think it's pretty expensive, which is why I only have it infrequently. I only ever really eat pork, fish and shellfish.

Right, here's to hoping this post is coherrent.

Bleah people who love animals make me sick. I hate animals thats why I want nothing to do with them. They are gross. Come on think of the food that you don't like to eat. Why don't you like to eat it? because you love it? or because you hate it? If you love animals celebrate all that thye give you. If you hate animals avoid everything that has to do with them.

So would you agree with the premise that cotting back on the meat consumption is the smart thing to do, or do you have a different opinion?

It is the smartest thing I did.


"We pray on Sundays that we may have light/To guide our footsteps on
the path we tread;/We are sick of war, we don't want to fight,/And yet
we gorge ourselves upon the dead."

"Vegetarian food leaves a deep impression on our nature. If the whole
world adopts vegetarianism, it can change the destiny of humankind."


"I do feel that spiritual progress does demand at some stage that we
should cease to kill our fellow creatures for the satisfaction of our
bodily wants."

"If man wants freedom why keep birds and animals in cages? Truly man
is the king of beasts, for his brutality exceeds them. We live by the
death of others. We are burial places! I have since an early age abjured
the use of meat."

"Flesh eating is simply immoral, as it involves the performance of an
act which is contrary to moral feeling: killing. By killing, man
suppresses in himself, unnecessarily, the highest spiritual capacity,
that of sympathy and pity towards living creatures like himself and by
violating his own feelings becomes cruel." "As long as there are slaughterhouses, there will be battlefields."

"My refusing to eat flesh occasioned an inconveniency, and I was frequently chided for my singularity, but, with this lighter repast, I made the greater progress, for greater clearness of head and quicker comprehension" "Flesh eating is unprovoked murder."

"I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals."


"The beef industry has contributed to more American deaths than all the wars of this century, all natural disasters, and all automobile accidents combined. If beef is your idea of `real food for real people,' you'd better live real close to a real good hospital." -Neal D. Barnard, M.D., President, Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, Washington, D.C


Thou shall not kill;)

I have a high IQ and my diet is basically meat.

It's a lot cheaper to eat healthy than it is to eat unhealthy foods, I mean, buying a bunch of rice and veggies is a lot cheaper than buying something like kraft dinner or other garbage, frozen veggies are dirt cheap et c.

Bags of cereals (rice, oats, etc) are certainly very cheap; it is the better vegetables that get a little more expensive. Meat can be extremely expensive or very cheap just like vegetables can – it all depends on where you get your food. Additionally, the cost of various food items is vastly different depending on where you live. Arguing about the cost of vegetables in England in comparison to the cost of meat in Texas just is completely fruitless (sorry, couldn’t resist).

The article mentioned that "vegetarians" who ate chicken and fish also fell into the group with higher IQs. I put vegetarian in quotes there because if you eat chicken or fish, you're not a vegetarian.

And this is the point where the article looses all credibility in my view. Someone who avoids just red meat is not a vegetarian. So you have a study which states that ‘vegetarians’ are smarter than non-vegetarians but includes a lot of non-vegetarians in their vegetarian sample group. Perhaps those who made this study have been eating a little too much beef lately ;)

Yahoo article here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20061215/hl_hsn/kidswithhighiqsgrowuptobevegetarians). This was certainly the first I'd heard of this, even though I did test with a high IQ as a kid and am a vegetarian.

As far as the study goes... 8200 respondents is quite a number. Pretty good sample size there. Note, please, that what it's saying isn't that vegetarianism makes you smart; it's that smart kids grow up to become vegetarians more often.

So would you agree with the premise that cotting back on the meat consumption is the smart thing to do, or do you have a different opinion?
I'm sure others have noted that correlations are dangerous things in the wrong hands, but I will note that I just recently decided to become a sort-of vegetarian. I won't eat factory farmed meat anymore. I've read too many articles about the way those animals are treated with drugs hormones, pesticides, etc. to be willing to put that stuff in my body. Is it a coincidence that I've got the education to be able to discover this stuff and come to the conclusion that factory-farmed meat is unhealthy and I ought not eat it? Probably not. But that doesn't necessarily make me smarter--just more aware on this topic. Lord knows I've gulped down plenty of Big Macs before this shift--I didn't suddenly get smarter last week.

I always find it amusing that the leftists who jump up and down about humans being animals of evolution are the same ones that insist that we don't fit in the category of "animals that eat other animals."
Those points don't contradict, nor have they anything to do with being leftist. (only fringe elements do not agree with evolution, and vegetarians can be found on all parts of the spectrum)

I know a few dozen - one of them being my girlfriend ;)
I also put environmental reasons under moral reasons in my mind - you apparantly disagree ?
Just about every tenet of environmentalism is self-interest. The only difference is that it's long-term self-interest rather than just immediate gratification.

Bleah people who love animals make me sick. I hate animals thats why I want nothing to do with them. They are gross. Come on think of the food that you don't like to eat. Why don't you like to eat it? because you love it? or because you hate it? If you love animals celebrate all that thye give you. If you hate animals avoid everything that has to do with them.
I agree, I don't like animals much so I don't eat them.

I seem to be finding on the internet that the brain is only able to source energy from glucose. I also seem to be finding that protein can processed to form glucose, but the same is not true of fat. I believe this is because some amino acids contain glucose - such as acetylglucosamine. Hence I put it to you that it was something other than energy that was present within meat that allowed higher development of omnivrous animals.

Eating the carcass of an animal is a quick way to get a lot of calories very quickly – it’s a nice package of lots of fat and protein. Since the brain is incredibly expensive and take a lot of calories to run, eating another animal which has already gone through the hard work of turning veggies into fat is a quicker way to get lots of energy.

Fat can be broken down into both glycerol and fatty acids; the glycerol is then converted into glucose by the liver. I would explain to you the specific metabolic actions which cause this transformation, but it has been far too long since I’ve done any biology. Suffice it to say, fat is a great source of energy. I’m sure a few hours with a biology textbook would serve you well in this, but I honestly can’t be bothered looking it up right now.

Tea inhibits absorbtion of iron you say?
Yup, I think it is the tannins in the tea but cannot remember. Same with calcium, and a few other things – you shouldn’t have tea within an hour or so of eating your vegetable iron source or it could interfere with the absorption.

After all that lovely advice, you come up with an ad-hominem. I am shocked sir.
That was meant to be completely tongue in cheek my good sir. I am a voracious eater of meat simply for the love of it; therefore it is pretty safe to assume that anything I say in regards to denigrating meat eaters is entirely fatuous.

So would you agree with the premise that cotting back on the meat consumption is the smart thing to do, or do you have a different opinion?

its a concious choice that actually requires some thought. hence i guess it makes sense that smarter people are more likely to think about the bigger picture, or ethics, and change their eating habits accordingly.
less smart people probably don't think about it as much and are probably less likely to make that decision as a result.


personally i eat meat, but not much red meat. i have thought about the issues involved, but meat tastes too good to give up :p

Eating the carcass of an animal is a quick way to get a lot of calories very quickly – it’s a nice package of lots of fat and protein. Since the brain is incredibly expensive and take a lot of calories to run, eating another animal which has already gone through the hard work of turning veggies into fat is a quicker way to get lots of energy.

Fat can be broken down into both glycerol and fatty acids; the glycerol is then converted into glucose by the liver. I would explain to you the specific metabolic actions which cause this transformation, but it has been far too long since I’ve done any biology. Suffice it to say, fat is a great source of energy. I’m sure a few hours with a biology textbook would serve you well in this, but I honestly can’t be bothered looking it up right now.I dun need no biology. I have background in chemistry. I just looked at an diagram of glycerol molecule - it's half a glucose molecule. Though the process is probably very complex - it always is in organic chemistry.Yup, I think it is the tannins in the tea but cannot remember. Same with calcium, and a few other things – you shouldn’t have tea within an hour or so of eating your vegetable iron source or it could interfere with the absorption.These things would be useful to know... you'd think your doctor might actually bother to tell you. He recommended that I take iron supplements over the winter last year. He told me that breakfast would be a good time to take them. Did he tell me to avoid taking having calcium at the same time... nooo... So there's me having a breakfast high in calcium (cereals with milk and/or yoghurt) and inhibiting my bodies ability to take in the iron. Fun.That was meant to be completely tongue in cheek my good sir. I am a voracious eater of meat simply for the love of it; therefore it is pretty safe to assume that anything I say in regards to denigrating meat eaters is entirely fatuous.Ah, having completely ripped me to shreds in the post I wasn't sure. I decided it was best to take it light heartedly. Life's too short.

Ok, this seems to be devolving, so I want to deal with a few base issues.

1)

This study only proves a correlation between IQ and vegetarianism. While this is great, it really doesn't indicate that there is any causation between the two, and there are reasons to believe that in fact the correlation is a product of self-selection (ie high IQ people are more likely to choose to become vegetarians than meat eaters). Not that by eating only green leafy stuff, you can raise your IQ.

2)

A number of people keep trying to discount the validity of IQ tests. While this may make you feel good, IQ tests are very good predictors of what might in the every day world be called "being smart." While there are of course a large number of social, and soceo-economic factors than can make it difficult to interprete IQ test data, the overwelming scientific data suggests that IQ is a fair measure to use. Specifically the APA (American Psycological Association), in a 1997 position paper basically spells out what the current value of these tests is, and indicates some of their weeknesses. However to discount them in their totality because it makes you feel good is about as valid as discounting evolution because you don't want to be related to chimps.

Blood

The full text of the APA paper can be found at http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/apa_01.html

It is the smartest thing I did.

So quoting a bunch of people proves that its bad to eat animals for moral reasons?