NationStates Jolt Archive

With 'now' being just a few hours (that's GMT +1) after this year's first candle(s) for Hanukkah should have been lighted, and you, once again, realize that either you have carelessly neglected your heritage and are oh so culturally rootless now, or that you are attached to your traditions but paying the prize of having to somehow escape the overpowerings of the all-pervasive Christmas for the next 17 days or so.

The reason for me making my second NSG thread this time is actually tangible: As a practicing atheist with non-practicing Jewish 'background', I am asked to give a presentation at uni about "How a Jew feels on and about Christmas", and I don't know any more than your average, google- and wiki-endowed person does. More specifically, I have no real, first-hand knowledge from Jewish people who might have something to say about this.
Seeing how my country luckily abandoned the whole 'let's put a clearly visible distinguishing piece of cloth on all Jews' a few decades ago, I don't exactly have much of an opportunity to spot random passer-by Jews and ask them, so my quest led me to the neverending opportunities of NSG, and I ask unto thee:

Dear Jew, Jewess, otherwisely Jewish or at least loosely Jewishly connected person, dear people somehow innocently trapped in the Jewish culture/tradition/customs,

How do you feel about Christmas? Does the overt Christmas celebration around you amuse you, enrage you, depress you, make you yawn?
What do you do on Christmas? Do you take part in Christmassy rituals to appease the general public/your kids/..? Do you ignore it? Do you picket Christian homes?
What does Christmas in general mean to you and your life? In how far is it an influence?


I'd appreciate any serious comment, especially those with a qualifier as to how they are connected to the Jewsih faith/tradition, and I'll grudgingly accept the odd post telling me how stupid I am for thinking this is the place for a serious question..

Let the thread begin.

ETA: My dear darling fellow debaters, spammers etc. of miscellaneous faiths: This is NOT the place to tell other people how ridiculous they are for observing the hoidays they do, or how very anal they are for their views on their, or your, holiday. First of all, because I say so and I'm the almighty OP, secondly, because we all like pretending to have this common sense thingy on the internets, and thirdly, let there be the friendly reminder that this forum is flame- , flamebaiting- and trolling-free.

Why does this sound like a candle waiting to erupt in flames?

huh?

you are your university's token jew and you are commanded to give a talk on how jews feel about christmas?

why didnt you refuse?

Why does this sound like a candle waiting to erupt in flames?

Because I didn't add the appropriate warning paragraph yet? ;]

huh?
you are your university's token jew and you are commanded to give a talk on how jews feel about christmas?
why didnt you refuse?

I'm sorry if it came across like that. No, my own background isn't (widely) known at my uni and would, in any case, not be an issue.
My class assignment involves people having to give presentations on the issues surrounding Christmas with different faith groups / belief systems / world views, and the first letter of my last name had me in the group of people enlightening the rest about the Jewish point of view.

do you actually consider yourself a jew despite not being religious? if so, can you explain this to me? cuz i have a hard time reconciling the word 'secular' with the word 'jew'. please correct my ignorance if that is the case cuz no one has explained it adequately before.

perhaps i'll explain myself. to me a secular jew is an oxymoron, judaism is a religion. the equivalent would be me saying i'm a secular christian cuz i was brought up a christian and yet i'm an atheist. if judaism has some cultural traditions outwith its religion can you educate me please? :)

(i'm sorry i'm having a hard time wording this post for fear of coming across anti-semitic after some recent tirades on NS - i'm not anti-semitic at all, i just don't understand the whole secular jew thing)

do you actually consider yourself a jew despite not being religious? if so, can you explain this to me? cuz i have a hard time reconciling the word 'secular' with the word 'jew'. please correct my ignorance if that is the case cuz no one has explained it adequately before.

perhaps i'll explain myself. to me a secular jew is an oxymoron, judaism is a religion. the equivalent would be me saying i'm a secular christian cuz i was brought up a christian and yet i'm an atheist. if judaism has some cultural traditions outwith its religion can you educate me please? :)

(i'm sorry i'm having a hard time wording this post for fear of coming across anti-semitic after some recent tirades on NS - i'm not anti-semitic at all, i just don't understand the whole secular jew thing)

Judaism, in that it has propogated through a largely self segregating group, can be somewhat thought of as an ethnicity.

Or at least, one can not follow the tenants of the jewish religion while at the same time be ethnically jewish.

And this ethnic crap doesn't demean Ethiopian jews how?

I don't exactly have much of an opportunity to spot random passer-by Jews and ask them

People entering a synagogue is generally a reasonable hint ;)
Not to mention that a Rabbi can definitely aid you.

And this ethnic crap doesn't demean Ethiopian jews how?

it demeans them no less than someone telling me I'm not ethnically Ethiopian.

do you actually consider yourself a jew despite not being religious?
No, I do most definitely not- I don't believe, I don't follow any customs; all I basically have is ancestry who did at some point.
What you might be getting at is that many people, and most of the Jewish community, regards 'Jewishness' not strictly as a religion, but sort of an ethnicity: You can be Jewish even if you don't believe (it is 'passed on' via blood relation on the female side of the family), and even if you believe, most will not consider you a 'Jew' just because of that, but will require enormously long processes until you may be one.

On the "secular" question: As far as my understanding of this word goes, being a 'secular *insert faith here* means that you believe in the seperatio of your faith and state/political matters, completely independent of which faith / which degree of faith you have. So you could believe very strongly in the Jewish faith, but still be of the opinion that this belief is your private matter and not grounds for public/political decision and therefore call yourself a secular Jew.

People entering a synagogue is generally a reasonable hint ;)
The thing is that at the times people might be visiting a synagogue, I'll probably not be prepared to be around there - I tend to have a very unruly, night-centered waking time schedule.
Not to mention that a Rabbi can definitely aid you.

a) May I be hands-down honest? That might just be a bit more detailed, and a bit more work, than I plan to invest in this.

b) A Rabbi might help me as to what Hanukkah is all about, and what The Ulimate Guidelines to Jewish Christmas Behavior say, but not what I'm aiming for most- the account of a varied crowd of Jewish(-related) people on their personal feelings on it.

How do you feel about Christmas? Does the overt Christmas celebration around you amuse you, enrage you, depress you, make you yawn?
What do you do on Christmas? Do you take part in Christmassy rituals to appease the general public/your kids/..? Do you ignore it? Do you picket Christian homes?
What does Christmas in general mean to you and your life? In how far is it an influence?



Well, I don't mind answering those questions, considering that I don't see much of a big deal. And I'm a secular non practicing israeli jew.
so, here goes

A. nothing what so ever, it's a holiday which already been out of it's original context and currently serve as an holiday for the consumer's culture.

B.I don't celebrate Christmas, cause, I don't have a tradition in doing so, considering I live in israel

C.It means to me what every holiday in the west world means.... an opportunity to make more money...

do you actually consider yourself a jew despite not being religious? if so, can you explain this to me? cuz i have a hard time reconciling the word 'secular' with the word 'jew'. please correct my ignorance if that is the case cuz no one has explained it adequately before.

perhaps i'll explain myself. to me a secular jew is an oxymoron, judaism is a religion. the equivalent would be me saying i'm a secular christian cuz i was brought up a christian and yet i'm an atheist. if judaism has some cultural traditions outwith its religion can you educate me please? :)

(i'm sorry i'm having a hard time wording this post for fear of coming across anti-semitic after some recent tirades on NS - i'm not anti-semitic at all, i just don't understand the whole secular jew thing)
Hmm. But would that be any different than considering oneself a Catholic despite not being religious? And is that then impossible, too?
Because I'm Catholic (baptized, confirmed, etc.) but I'm "not practicing". I consider myself an Agnostic, but I haven't officially left church. I just don't care enough either way, I guess. If I had kids, I would still have them baptized, I guess.
Not wanting to derail the thread with general religion stuff, but wondering if that's what you're talking about or if it's somehow different for Jews in a way I don't see.

Well, I don't mind answering those questions, considering that I don't see much of a big deal. And I'm a secular non practicing israeli jew.
Thanks for playing; here are your 10 dollars, please play again.
No, seriously, thanks.

A. nothing what so ever, it's a holiday which already been out of it's original context and currently serve as an holiday for the consumer's culture.

B.I don't celebrate Christmas, cause, I don't have a tradition in doing so, considering I live in israel

C.It means to me what every holiday in the west world means.... an opportunity to make more money...

So basically, you don't pay it any attention because you aren't directly affected by it due to your geographical location, and because you don't perceive it as a mostly religious celebration, but more of a consumer-oriented collective seasonal pastime?

Actually, the latter is what first sprang to my mind when thinking about this- I have been 'socialized' in the German Christian culture, but I had to remind myself for a second what Christmas was all about again because the 'Christian background' just really doesn't show anymore all that much. When I think Christmas, I think chocolate santas, flashy decorations, annoying music played everywhere I go, charity buzz, and presents, and none of this 'Christmas' show all around me is actually 'religious'.

do you actually consider yourself a jew despite not being religious? if so, can you explain this to me? cuz i have a hard time reconciling the word 'secular' with the word 'jew'.

The same way that Northern Ireland has atheist/agnostic/secular Protestants and Catholics.

How do you feel about Christmas? Does the overt Christmas celebration around you amuse you, enrage you, depress you, make you yawn?
What do you do on Christmas? Do you take part in Christmassy rituals to appease the general public/your kids/..? Do you ignore it? Do you picket Christian homes?
What does Christmas in general mean to you and your life? In how far is it an influence?

I'll bite. I'm one of those aforementioned secular Jews that people don't understand. I don't hold an religious beliefs or anything. However, I'm very much involved in the community, hebrew language, tradition, and I guess just family culture aspects of it. Basically, it's a rich intelectual as well as cultural and spiritual tradition, and I still value the first two.

About chrismas, it doesn't bother me in any way. I find the atmosphere quite festive, and I like carols. Basically, any excuse to have a bit of a celebration, give donations, or be generally nice is fine by me.

EDIT: what do I do on Christmas day? Well, movie theartres are open even though stores usually aren't, so sometimes I go to see a film. Half the people in the audience are often other Jews that I recognize, doing the same thing. Nothing special other than that.

Secular and atheist is not the same thing. People can be secular Jews but not atheist Jews.

Ok, let me clear something up. As a practicing Jew i, as well as the vast majority of practicing jews, believe judaism is NOT a race. If you are not a practicing jew, you are not a jew. There is no such thing as a 1/2 jew, 1/4 jew or any other "partial" judaism. You are either jewish or you are not. My name is one of the most Italian names you will EVER find, i am of italian ethnicity, but i am a religious jew. As for your questions, Christmas makes me feel good as its a time when everyone seems happy. I do celebrate christmas basically because it is more about being happy and together than the whole jesus trip. To me Christmas means i get to spend some time with my closest friends and their families, colorful decorations, a nice tree and stocking, and many other things that are very nice. I celebrate because its a nice holiday that is fun to celebrate.

With BFS...

You are http://www.nearlygood.com/smilies/taz.gif
Hell, for a university student :rolleyes: you don't even know proper English. :(

I'm one of those aforementioned secular Jews that people don't understand. I don't hold an religious beliefs or anything. However, I'm very much involved in the community, hebrew language, tradition, and I guess just family culture aspects of it. Basically, it's a rich intelectual as well as cultural and spiritual tradition, and I still value the first two.
I notice that kind of response/way to live with a lot of non-religious people from Jewish background. Maybe one could say that if one didn't agree that Jewishness is a race/ethnicity, one could definitely call it a culture as well as a religion, one that works even without the precise religious context?

About chrismas, it doesn't bother me in any way. I find the atmosphere quite festive, and I like carols. Basically, any excuse to have a bit of a celebration, give donations, or be generally nice is fine by me.
So you don't pay any attention / don't give any thought to it as a religious / Christian holiday, but just enjoy the festivities per se?

As a practicing Jew i, as well as the vast majority of practicing jews, believe judaism is NOT a race. If you are not a practicing jew, you are not a jew.
Thanks for joining in this discussion from a practicing Jew's point of view. My only sources are, unfortunately, books I read on Judaism (written by rathe rprominent Jews in my country), and there, it always said that the majority of practicing Jews actually *are* of the hereditary/ethnic aspect of Jewishness opinion. I don't mean to dismiss your point/opinion (and I'd have no basis to do so on even if I wanted to), but could you maybe direct me to a source where I could look into this contrary claim of yours?

As for your questions, Christmas makes me feel good as its a time when everyone seems happy. I do celebrate christmas basically because it is more about being happy and together than the whole jesus trip. To me Christmas means i get to spend some time with my closest friends and their families, colorful decorations, a nice tree and stocking, and many other things that are very nice. I celebrate because its a nice holiday that is fun to celebrate.

So you're on one line with Kreitz, just appreciating the festiveness rather than seeing it as a religious ritual kinda thing?

This question regarding both of you: So you don't feel like 'betraying' your faith/culture when celebrating a holiday that clearly contradicts your belief, or uncomfortable with it any other way?

Disclaimer: I'm not saying this in an accusing tone, nor do I think you should; I'm just asking to clarify things for me.

You are http://www.nearlygood.com/smilies/taz.gif
Hell, for a university student :rolleyes: you don't even know proper English. :(

Umm.. it seems my 12 years of learning English didn't even teach me enough to understand what it is you're criticizing.. would you mind trying again?

While i dont have any official sources for you on the subject (which is purely from an opinion of practicing jews perspective NOT jewish law) but the majority of jews from MY synagague and the majority of practicing jews I have met feel this way (perhaps saying vast majority was too much, i will say vast majority of jews that I know, although many important rabbi's in israel have stated this, again no source so take it for what its worth). For your 2nd question, no. I am a firm believer that its cool to celebrate anything that makes you happy (outside of stuff thats bad for you) and i dont really consider X-Mas a religious holiday, its just not anymore, so i celebrate.

While i dont have any official sources for you on the subject (which is purely from an opinion of practicing jews perspective NOT jewish law) but the majority of jews from MY synagague and the majority of practicing jews I have met feel this way (perhaps saying vast majority was too much, i will say vast majority of jews that I know).
That's okay, I wasn't 'demanding' a source, but just asking whether you happened to have anything on it. And as I said somewhere in the opening of the thread, anecdotal evidence is actually what I'm looking for here (for once!); if I wanted to know what the official standing point is, I could probably look that up.
For your 2nd question, no. I am a firm believer that its cool to celebrate anything that makes you happy (outside of stuff thats bad for you) and i dont really consider X-Mas a religious holiday, its just not anymore, so i celebrate.
Thanks. I assume that with the underlined part, you agree with Unknown apathy (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=12091784#post12091784)about Christmas having turned into a money-making holiday machine and not much more?

I assume that with the underlined part, you agree with Unknown apathy about Christmas having turned into a money-making holiday machine and not much more?
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Yeah, pretty much, so i go along and have fun. BTW, the "official" standing is born jew, die jew, simple as that. If you convert to another religion you are still a jew. Ofcourse like i said i and the vast majority of practicing jews i know disagree.

The logic being used here is one of inclusive hatred. It doesn't matter if you practice Judaism the religion, it matters that somehow you were connected to Judaism somehow and therefore are pariah. You may even be a christian who had a relative who was jewish. There is a ticking thing going on inside this statement. Go back far enough in generations and you will always find a pariah in your purity.

The classic conversion wish. It reads very close to the Jews for Jesus message, but the Jews for Jesus message is one of religious conversion. This is not, it is too inclusive. It is old fashioned wishful thinking that someone will have their Jewish soul solved by converting. It is the classic mentality of the Catholic nanny who baptized the Jewish baby without the parents knowing. The Catholic church found out and removed the Jewish baby claiming it was a christian baby. The church claimed it had truly saved the Jewish baby's soul.

Yeah, pretty much, so i go along and have fun.[QUOTE]
I'm glad to see that this seems to be somewhat of a concensus in this thread, and that this whole affair doesn't actually seemt o be as problematic as it's sometimes made out to be.
[QUOTE]BTW, the "official" standing is born jew, die jew, simple as that. If you convert to another religion you are still a jew. Ofcourse like i said i and the vast majority of practicing jews i know disagree.
That's sorta like I remmebered it. Question arises now, of course, what is 'born a Jew'? Say, your mother was a Jew but converted later in life (and that way stayed 'a Jew' as we just said), are you, as her child, still 'born a Jew'? How about your kid?

.. but that's probably material for a whole 'nother discussion, and not exactly all too relevant for the people involved- like me, not having a 'practicing' family and not believing myself, I couldn't care less about whether I'm "officially" a Jew or not.

If your mom converts by our standards she is still technically a jew, therefore the child is as well. I too thought there would be more of a "No its bad and against my religion" type of consensus, but im glad some feel how i do.

- snipping is caring-

I have to admit I found your post rather incoherent, but that may just have been me.

In case I understood your basic gist correctly, you are saying that the 'classification' of someone as Jewish not only by faith, but also as a sort of ethnicity is spurred by non-Jewish / Christian people trying to 'guilt' or 'blame' or otherwisely discriminate against as many not purely Christian people as they possibly can by the wide definition of a Jew- right?

Well, that seems to contradict my notion that it looks like the 'Jewishness as an ethnicity' rule is actually a rule implied by the Jewish officials / community, and not the general non-Jewish public, who is, more often than not, ignorant about this kind of rule. If it were a rule imposed by non-Jews, the Jews could and would just have gottenr id of it, instead of going by it as far as official recognitions for, say, marriage purposes and such go, no?

I too thought there would be more of a "No its bad and against my religion" type of consensus, but im glad some feel how i do.

Concerning your previous assumption that the responses would be different.. have you experienced people around you expression such different opinions about Christmas? And do you think it could possibly be an age thing, what with many NSgers being rathe rin the younger age bracket; could it be that the older some people we talk, the more likely it is they respond negatively and less, say, inclusively to Christmas as a Jew? I'd love for you to share if you had any experience with other people's opinions on this- I'm tapping you as my source for first-hand contact with an actual, practicing Jewish community here :]

No I am talking about how people who didn't like Jews viewed and classified them as Jews historically so they could separate them from everyone else. People seem to forget. There is a mentality which people use to separate ethnic groups who are not part of the group. It is not particularly logical. It allows people to build a distorted image.

For example I could build a false picture in my mind of Catholics. Because most people in my mind who are Catholic seem white, they are members of the white race for example, also I believe that if say you are born to a Catholic mother or had a Catholic relative they are Catholic, even if they converted to another religion because they are baptized they are still Catholic. Because they follow the Pope and I don't like the pope, I may even claim that they are not christian. None of it is logical.

i guess i've misunderstood the word secular for a while. perhaps the phrase i should have use was 'non-religious jew'. one of my best friends at school was a non-religious jew and he never explained to me what this meant. he basically considered himself an atheist jew and when questioned got defensive about anti-semitism and the like. anyway, that confused me. i understand the whole isolation breeds individuality argument, but that doesn't make a 'race'. if that was the case the amish would be a race apart and the quakers too probably.

the thing is i don't really care what people consider themselves to be but the various insanities going on in the near east at the moment have drawn attention to and opinions from apparently non-religious jews. one of the most hardline anti-palestinian, zionist expansionist people i know calls herself a non-religious jew. but as with any extremeist she only speaks in diatribes not coherent sentences so i never actually got her reasoning. maybe she's just a racist but she seems perfectly lucid and coherent on issues outside of the near east. so i was just wondering if anyone might be able to shed some light on this sort of position.

Hmm. But would that be any different than considering oneself a Catholic despite not being religious? And is that then impossible, too?
Because I'm Catholic (baptized, confirmed, etc.) but I'm "not practicing". I consider myself an Agnostic, but I haven't officially left church. I just don't care enough either way, I guess. If I had kids, I would still have them baptized, I guess.
Not wanting to derail the thread with general religion stuff, but wondering if that's what you're talking about or if it's somehow different for Jews in a way I don't see.

i guess it's a general religion thing but non-religious jews have been more outspoken in my life experience than non religious christians plus there is the whole powder keg thing going on bwtween israel and muslim countries, hence my particular focus. i was baptised and confirmed into the C of E and yet i waver between atheism and agnosticism. basically i've kept nothing of my previous faith. i'm only agnostic about spiritualism, i don't think there is any supreme being. i wouldn't consider myself christian let alone C of E and the only reason to get any potential kids of mine baptized for me would be to appease my mother or if my partner at the time really wanted it. i wasn't aware of the same sort of contradiiction in christianity. the christians i know IRL belienve in god and jeesus and all that, some go to church, some can't be bothered, but all of them consider themselves religiousd becauese they believe in the christian god and that jesus was it's spawn.

i think there must be different ways of approaching agnosticism and atheism coming from a religious tradition. there's the all-out disbelief, there's the atheistic spritualist outlook, theres a sort of hedging-your-bets religion without the theism and then there's the believing in everything but not really considering a belief in a supreme being. and probably more besides but these are the ones i can think of at the mo. i actually remember a guy at my school who said he was catholic as that's how he was brought up and educated but didn't necessarily believe in god. perhaps the catholic and jewish traditions are more 'life encompassing' that that of the C of E and this could be the root of my confusion. church was always just church to me and entirely seperate from the rest of my life because it was boring (back when i believed i seriously considered converting to catholicism cuz it seemed more interesting).

I notice that kind of response/way to live with a lot of non-religious people from Jewish background. Maybe one could say that if one didn't agree that Jewishness is a race/ethnicity, one could definitely call it a culture as well as a religion, one that works even without the precise religious context? Sure. Particularly since the creation of Israel, and a secular, national, Hebrew (language) - based culture, there is much to identify with that isn't religious or spiritual in nature, though many of the cultural references and antecedents ARE religious and biblical.

Thanks for joining in this discussion from a practicing Jew's point of view. My only sources are, unfortunately, books I read on Judaism (written by rathe rprominent Jews in my country), and there, it always said that the majority of practicing Jews actually *are* of the hereditary/ethnic aspect of Jewishness opinion. I don't mean to dismiss your point/opinion (and I'd have no basis to do so on even if I wanted to), but could you maybe direct me to a source where I could look into this contrary claim of yours?I think most Jews do see the whole "Jewihness" issue as something more than strictly practicing the requirements of rabbinic law. Again, it isn't so much to do with blood as with community. When Jews were isolated into communities that didn't mix much, well, that was the same thing. Now it is not. Evidence that fact that loss of Jewish identity and practice (assimilation) is extremely common.

This question regarding both of you: So you don't feel like 'betraying' your faith/culture when celebrating a holiday that clearly contradicts your belief, or uncomfortable with it any other way?

Disclaimer: I'm not saying this in an accusing tone, nor do I think you should; I'm just asking to clarify things for me.I don't celebrate Christmas, so no, there is no guilt there. I enjoy the seasonal festive atmosphere, but there is nothing I actively do to celebrate Chrismas at all, nor do I want to 'adopt' any of it. I would feel very odd and out of place doing the whole tree/stocking/pudding/mass thing, and I'm quite sure that I would never feel comfortable doing that anywere let alone in my home. It's just a set of traditions that have no meaning or resonance with me, no tradition assoiciated with them, and a good deal of 'other'ness to them. NOT celebrating Christmas is something that as a child defined something about me. I don't even believe in my religion, so why would I adopt the trappings of another one I don't believe in?

This may seem petty to the rest of you, and I'll probably get flak because of it, but even if I did marry someone non-Jewish (which I'm inclined to think that I wouldn't) I don't think I would agree to celebrate Christmas with them either, or celebrate it with hypothetical kids. It is just something emblematic of what I'm not.

the thing is i don't really care what people consider themselves to be but the various insanities going on in the near east at the moment have drawn attention to and opinions from apparently non-religious jews. one of the most hardline anti-palestinian, zionist expansionist people i know calls herself a non-religious jew. but as with any extremeist she only speaks in diatribes not coherent sentences so i never actually got her reasoning. maybe she's just a racist but she seems perfectly lucid and coherent on issues outside of the near east. so i was just wondering if anyone might be able to shed some light on this sort of position.
We're used to extreme politics being associated with religious beliefs, but they needn't be. I know many people like your friend. The fact that they don't believe in god doesn't make then more or less racist, or more or less extreme in their politics.

Judaism, in that it has propogated through a largely self segregating group, can be somewhat thought of as an ethnicity.

Or at least, one can not follow the tenants of the jewish religion while at the same time be ethnically jewish.

Also, Jewish law has always regarded Jews as a PEOPLE, not as a religion. The religion is the duty of the Jewish people, but it is not their identifying factor - that would be having a Jewish mother, or undergoing the conversion process.

The notion of an "atheist Jew," unlike the notion of an atheist Christian, is not at all contradictory.

How do you feel about Christmas? Does the overt Christmas celebration around you amuse you, enrage you, depress you, make you yawn?

It amuses me or annoys me, depending on my mood.

What do you do on Christmas?

Nothing. On occasion, go to a movie.

What does Christmas in general mean to you and your life?

Very little.

perhaps i'll explain myself. to me a secular jew is an oxymoron, judaism is a religion. the equivalent would be me saying i'm a secular christian cuz i was brought up a christian and yet i'm an atheist. if judaism has some cultural traditions outwith its religion can you educate me please? :)
Judaism doesn't really follow the pattern of most religions, like Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc in that it's ethnocentric. "Jew" implies ethnically Hebrew/Israelite as well. There are some other Jewish peoples, but most of them are of Semitic racial background.

It doesn't really fit the race/religion mould as most others do.

Meh. For what it is worth I am 1/4 Jewish, my mothers mother was jewish, in other words my maternal grandmother.
However I feel nothing for the Jewish people in general, I see myself as a German not a jew ethnically and religiously I am Roman Catholic. Any jew trying to claim I am a jew, will be sorely tried. I have blond hair and blue eyes and one would never guess I am jewish by appearence (I appear more in the likeness of Hitlers Aryan people than the long nosed, curly haired, bushy eyebrowed jew stereotype) or by my cultural standards. I regularly eat pork, I follow the Christian tradition of not eating meat on fridays, and do not remotely follow any jewish tenants I am aware of. I even in my youth thought for some time about becoming a priest.
Annoyingly enough I was botherred by a group affiliated with the Israeli embassy a while ago, some group trying to promote jewish immigration to Israel of somesorts I cannot remember the details in full memory. Since my maternal grandmother emigrated to Israel shortly before her death. They wanted to ask my intentions of if I am moving to Israel, join the IDF and return home. First of I asked where the hell they got my number from and told them it was a mistaken identity and wrong number. I don't ever plan on visiting Israel, let alone fighting in their military of which I hold in very low regard. My grandmother also with her family grew up in the Kaiserreich of Germany, and were about as German as one could get, her father served in the Imperial army in ww1. Also when she was born she was baptised, despite both parents at the time being Jewish. My great-grandfather was more of a nationalistic German then a jew, he was secular to the bone.
He died of illness before the Third Reich, but a lot of my grandmothers family didn't make it. She made it by moving to England in '32 to relatives to attend university, she didn't return. She married my grandfather who was also a german who fled to England early on. And after the war she all of a sudden became very religious, she divorced her christian husband and moved to Israel in '52 to start a new life or such. My grandfather took my mother with him back to Germany around the same time and lived there for the rest of his life raising her. My mother was always very resentfull of Judaism in the whole, seeing it as having ripped apart her family. Never mention Zionism to her, that ranks right next to Hitler for her.

But me personally. I celebrate Christmas by going to mass on christmas eve, I personally make a small crib and stable every year and cut the figures out wood (whiddling?), starting early december and am usually done a few days before Christmas, where I place them near the tree. My father sometimes helps me with this if he has the time to spare.
For my direct family christmas is the second most important holiday, followed only by Christs ascension to heaven during the easter holidays.

So I am by no means a secular jew. If you would have to call me a jew, I would be a Catholic jew or christian jew, to make the title fitting.

I speak only German and English, I never bothered to learn yiddish since I don't view it as a part of me. Hebrew I see no point in, since what little jewish blood there is in my family tree spoke strictly yiddish not hebrew, or very rarely.

I think most Jews do see the whole "Jewihness" issue as something more than strictly practicing the requirements of rabbinic law. Again, it isn't so much to do with blood as with community. When Jews were isolated into communities that didn't mix much, well, that was the same thing. Now it is not. Evidence that fact that loss of Jewish identity and practice (assimilation) is extremely common.
Thanks, that makes a lot of sense.

I don't celebrate Christmas, so no, there is no guilt there. I enjoy the seasonal festive atmosphere, but there is nothing I actively do to celebrate Chrismas at all, nor do I want to 'adopt' any of it. I would feel very odd and out of place doing the whole tree/stocking/pudding/mass thing, and I'm quite sure that I would never feel comfortable doing that anywere let alone in my home. It's just a set of traditions that have no meaning or resonance with me, no tradition assoiciated with them, and a good deal of 'other'ness to them. NOT celebrating Christmas is something that as a child defined something about me. I don't even believe in my religion, so why would I adopt the trappings of another one I don't believe in?

Okay, thanks for clarifying that; I guess I misunderstood something there. That's a very interesting, uh, duality for me here; I always thought of it in the strict terms of either "will see Christmas as the religious celebration of a different religion and therefore not partake in any of it" or "will see it as a rather non-religious festivity and therefore just join the fun". If I understood you correctly, I can now add "understands Christmas to be more of a not exactly strictly religious holiday (anymore) and enjoys the festive atmosphere without flat out rejecting it due to its Christian roots, but nevertheless declines to actively take any part in the rituals etc. because those are of non-Jewish religious nature after all"?

So.. this makes you a passive Christmas enjoyer, but an active not-Christmasser? [TM]

This may seem petty to the rest of you, and I'll probably get flak because of it, but even if I did marry someone non-Jewish (which I'm inclined to think that I wouldn't) I don't think I would agree to celebrate Christmas with them either, or celebrate it with hypothetical kids. It is just something emblematic of what I'm not.
First off, I hope you won't get any flak for this because I specifically said in the OP that such things are not to be done in this thread ;P

Secondly, and more to the point: Again, this falls out of my clearly set out either-or scheme I specified in the paragraph above; it just surprises me that you are so non-fussy about the really all-pervasive Christmas spirits around you (assuming you live in what we'd commonly call a 'Christian country', please correct me if I'm wrong) and even enjoy it more or less due to its non-threatening, non-religious nature, but then become so very opposed to any of it actively becoming part of your life specifically. Mind you, I'm not judging this, it just surpirses me as it's a reaction I had not foreseen from what I knew and thought earlier.

But then again, I think I can somewhat feel what you mean with the underlined part (and, by the by, I think you phrased that very well).
With the danger of going off on a tangent here: I have been born with one hand only, and with me growing adult and science progressing the way it does, there has been talk about maybe getting one of those artificially made hands that are fitted you and that you, with some training, can actually move a lot like a real hand once they are sufficiently developed, which could be very soon. Now, how this relates to what you said is that funnily enough (and no one understands this around here) I am very, very reluctant, if not to say opposed, to that idea- this physical oddness of mine has been one of my features, something of 'mine' or even 'me' for twenty years now, or, to phrase it negatively to fit your phrase, having those two regular hands has somwhat definingly been something that I just have not been, and in some (some say perverted) way it is a characteristic I have grown attached to, that is a dear partnof me, amd that I'm not really willing to change- even seeing how that might objectively be beneficial to me, which the Christmas thing would probably not claim. ;]

It amuses me or annoys me, depending on my mood.

Nothing. On occasion, go to a movie.

Very little.

Thanks for that input. Now, I've seen you round in the fora lots, but I cannot recall having read where you're from again, and would you mind giving a brief note and just how Jewish you'd call yourself? Just in order to be able to place this into context, in a way.

Meh. For what it is worth I am 1/4 Jewish, my mothers mother was jewish, in other words my maternal grandmother.
[snipping family history-]
That's interesting, how you seem to be so very not Jewish, even opposed to the notion of being Jewish (side note everyone, being opposed to the idea of being (called) Jewish oneself is NOT to be equalled, or associated, with anti-semitic sentiments), and still so, allow me to say 'entrapped', in the Jewish aspects of the past of your family. It does seem to be a thing that sticks, maybe more than other religions would, one way or the other.

[QUOTE] But me personally. I celebrate Christmas by going to mass on christmas eve, I personally make a small crib and stable every year and cut the figures out wood (whiddling?), starting early december and am usually done a few days before Christmas, where I place them near the tree. My father sometimes helps me with this if he has the time to spare.
For my direct family christmas is the second most important holiday, followed only by Christs ascension to heaven during the easter holidays.
Seeing how the only 'Jewishnes' you sem to have is a 'remote bloodline' one and you associate with the Christian faith lots, this makes sense. Kudos on your skill with woodwork, by the way; I always wished I could do that :]

Dunno if you're still looking for answers to OP, but here it goes.

I am an atheist who was raised ambivalently Jewish.

Christmas, to me is actually kinda depressing, because it just reminds me how much money I don't have....but other than that it's just everyone else's deal. It's an excuse for people who are nominally Christian to go nuts on the decorating and get free shit from their neighbors.

On X-mas I'm usually studying, oddly enough, since all my friends are busy with their families.

Hope I got all the questions.

Now, how this relates to what you said is that funnily enough (and no one understands this around here) I am very, very reluctant, if not to say opposed, to that idea- this physical oddness of mine has been one of my features, something of 'mine' or even 'me' for twenty years now, or, to phrase it negatively to fit your phrase, having those two regular hands has somwhat definingly been something that I just have not been, and in some (some say perverted) way it is a characteristic I have grown attached to, that is a dear partnof me, amd that I'm not really willing to change- even seeing how that might objectively be beneficial to me, which the Christmas thing would probably not claim. ;]

I fully understand, and am certain many others here do too. Hell, there have even been debates around here on the question if it is ok for deaf people to desire deaf children, up till the point of genetic manipulation to assure that outcome. But that is going a bit too far offtopic ;)

umm... does this fall under the "homework help" ilegality clause?
if not, I am one of those special Jews who technically aren't Jews at all. My mother is a WASP whose father was Black Irish. My father's famly, however, is all eaithr dead,m or Holocaust survivors. I most sertainly consider myself Jewish. I hold Jewsh beliefs and keep kosher, although I am not observant in many other respects. I am said by many to look Jewish (which, no matter what other people say IS possible, and usually means someone is Jewish), and participate in all of the major holidays (purim, yom kippur, passover, etc). Because my mother is Christian, I grew up with Christmas as part of my life, although it never had anything to do with Jesus. I recieved gifts from my mother's family, and my grandmother came to visit. My first word (other than mama, papa, etc.) was "tee," refering to the christmas tree. I therefore have many fond memories of christmas, but regard it as an overly comercialized extraviganza, and am afraid of the growing trends to turn Channukah into the same.

umm... does this fall under the "homework help" ilegality clause?
I don't think it does (or I wouldn't have created this thread, obviously) seeing how I didn't give you a question/problem that I wanted answered/solved so I can copy&paste it into my paper, but asked for different viewpoints measnt to evolve into discussion so I can work them into my presentation, but by all means do feel free to report this if you think differently; I'm happy to accept mod ruling if I broke the rule(s).

For refeence, this is what the OSRS says:

Homework Help: General is not the place to post your assignment and ask others to do the work for you. Discussing topics is fine, but not question and answer sessions.

if not, I am one of those special Jews who technically aren't Jews at all. My mother is a WASP whose father was Black Irish. My father's famly, however, is all eaithr dead,m or Holocaust survivors. I most sertainly consider myself Jewish. I hold Jewsh beliefs and keep kosher, although I am not observant in many other respects. I [...] participate in all of the major holidays (purim, yom kippur, passover, etc). Because my mother is Christian, I grew up with Christmas as part of my life, although it never had anything to do with Jesus. I recieved gifts from my mother's family, and my grandmother came to visit. My first word (other than mama, papa, etc.) was "tee," refering to the christmas tree. I therefore have many fond memories of christmas, but regard it as an overly comercialized extraviganza, and am afraid of the growing trends to turn Channukah into the same.

So you don't feel that participating in both religion's holidays is going contrary to your religious beliefs?

That's a variant of the question I asked before, and the same 'non-accusationary' disclaimer is applicable.

Well I have seen many jews go "Anti X-Mas" by going nuts on old wal mart greeters saying "merry x-mas" i have seen them ridicule the celebraters and the religion itself. Thesse jews give the rest of us a bad name IMNSHO. So, to answer your question, yes i have seen it alot in older folks espescially

Well I have seen many jews go "Anti X-Mas" by going nuts on old wal mart greeters saying "merry x-mas" i have seen them ridicule the celebraters and the religion itself. Thesse jews give the rest of us a bad name IMNSHO. So, to answer your question, yes i have seen it alot in older folks espescially

You see, this is one reason why I started the thread; I heard about this kind of reaction (restricted to the US, incidentally; I have never heard about anything like it happening in my country (Germany)) but I wanted to see whether this is a common reaction or just a hyped-up thing.

Now I know that NSG isn't exactly the place to get an opinion from 'normal, sane people' most of the time, and that we'll not get anywhere near a representative sample, but one can try as best as one can, no?

Judaism, in that it has propogated through a largely self segregating group, can be somewhat thought of as an ethnicity.

Or at least, one can not follow the tenants of the jewish religion while at the same time be ethnically jewish.

Yes, this is a confusion NS has introduced me to, but that I never had before. I've known a number of jewish people in my life, and some were religious, and others were not. Well, maybe Rastafarian? Man those jews know how to smoke weed :D

Well that, and...they tend to be awfully kinky. Mmmmmm.

But anyway...the non-religious ones were still jews, still considered themselves as such etc. You ask, 'what's your heritage', and the answer is 'Jewish', not fucking 'well my parents are religiously jewish, but I myself am not religious anymore, therefore I guess I'm not a jew."

Thanks for that input. Now, I've seen you round in the fora lots, but I cannot recall having read where you're from again, and would you mind giving a brief note and just how Jewish you'd call yourself? Just in order to be able to place this into context, in a way.

I'm an atheist Jew.

Born to a Jewish family, went to a Jewish school, know a good deal about Judaism, but reject most of it on a variety of grounds.

Yes, this is a confusion NS has introduced me to, but that I never had before. [...]
But anyway...the non-religious ones were still jews, still considered themselves as such etc. You ask, 'what's your heritage', and the answer is 'Jewish', not fucking 'well my parents are religiously jewish, but I myself am not religious anymore, therefore I guess I'm not a jew."

Well, I'm surprised this surprises you. Never make the mistake of expecting good analogies from me, but wouldn't you say that someone who's connected via birth to the Native ethnicity is very liable to cite his 'native connection' even though they may have given up completely on the 'spiritual' side? Now I see that this is different insofar as that you may claim actual 'native genes' and get to check an own box on official forms, whcih Jews won't, but this is not quite what I was referring to. Claiming 'Jewish heritage' usually won't refer to 'Jewish genes', but a sense of belonging to a 'Jewish culture', even though one abandoned (or never knew/practised) the religious side. Doesn't it go in a smimilar vein for people with Native background, even if maybe a somewhat remote background, who feel a 'cultural' connection independent of just how much 'native blood' exactly they have, or whether or not they follow 'native spiritual beliefs'? It strikes me as a similar 'felt' connection.

I'm an atheist Jew.

Born to a Jewish family, went to a Jewish school, know a good deal about Judaism, but reject most of it on a variety of grounds.
Why, thanks. So do you celebrate Jewsh holidays (with your family)?

perhaps i'll explain myself. to me a secular jew is an oxymoron, judaism is a religion. the equivalent would be me saying i'm a secular christian cuz i was brought up a christian and yet i'm an atheist. if judaism has some cultural traditions outwith its religion can you educate me please? :)

I don't think there really is a contradiction with being secular-any religion because what defines secular and what doesn't? What about the people who just go to church/synagoge, because their friends and family do? Ditto for celebrating holidays? Are they secular?

Ok, let me clear something up. As a practicing Jew i, as well as the vast majority of practicing jews, believe judaism is NOT a race. If you are not a practicing jew, you are not a jew. There is no such thing as a 1/2 jew, 1/4 jew or any other "partial" judaism. You are either jewish or you are not.
I would disagree with that because if you are 1/2 or 1/4 Jew you have Christian relatives and you might celebrate Christmas with them. My "partial Jewish" friends and I tend to be more open minded to other religions and more willing to accept flaws in our own than my friends who aren't. (That means that I sometimes get into fights about it with them.)


For example I could build a false picture in my mind of Catholics. Because most people in my mind who are Catholic seem white, they are members of the white race for example,
Members of the white race huh? Do we carry cards now? Are the laminated?

Well I have seen many jews go "Anti X-Mas" by going nuts on old wal mart greeters saying "merry x-mas" i have seen them ridicule the celebraters and the religion itself. Thesse jews give the rest of us a bad name IMNSHO. So, to answer your question, yes i have seen it alot in older folks espescially
There was this Rabbi who threatened to sue Sea-Tac airport for not putting up a Chanukah menorah with Christmas trees in the airport. Eventually he backed down but many people in the Seattle area wrote nasty letters to the editor saying stuff like: "Them God-hatin jOOz are tryin' to ruin Christmas." I agree with you that people like the Rabbi give us a bad name but I found it kind of annoying how many people see members of another religion (Jews, Muslims, etc.) just as a collective.

There is only one group that has a distinct genealogical tradition of being Jewish, the Levites. The levites dna was used to determine the genetic linkage between the ethiopian jews and other jews in Israel. There is no other part of Judaism which maintains a strict genealogical tradition going very far back in history to biblical times. This is part of Orthdox judaism. No one else has a genealogical tradition which maps their Jewishness by blood. Like everyone else, blood disappears at about the sixth generation.

Catholics are every color. Though, if you were in Saudi Arabia or Iran you would have to have your religion printed on your passport.

With the 'knowledge' I have so far, I resent the notion that in order to be Jewish, and that includes 'properly Jewish', you have to be able to trace your genetic line back to any Levite 2000 years ago. Not only because most people will not be able to trace their ancestry that far back, but especially because the Jewish community strikes me as a bit more than just a genetically justified in-club.

No, really most people who consider themselves religiously jewish say if your mother is Jewish you are Jewish, or if you become bar or bat mitzvahed-- recognized as a man or woman in the religious tradition you are jewish. People who convert become bar or bat mitzvahed.

I think the secular identity has a lot to do with self protection and creating a personal identity. Hatred is a really powerful force for creating identity, especially historical hatred. Self identity is often a better protection than having others who don't like you identify you.

History is also a strong tie for people. Having a history creates a legend for identify with. Whether it is true or not is another story.

With the 'knowledge' I have so far, I resent the notion that in order to be Jewish, and that includes 'properly Jewish', you have to be able to trace your genetic line back to any Levite 2000 years ago. Not only because most people will not be able to trace their ancestry that far back, but especially because the Jewish community strikes me as a bit more than just a genetically justified in-club.

The irony to think they were almost eradicated by a group that had similar ideas of having to belong to a certain racial group to join them.

Hatred is a really powerful force for creating identity, especially historical hatred.
If I were the kind who sigs strong quotes rather than light music, I'd sig this.

The irony to think they were almost eradicated by a group that had similar ideas of having to belong to a certain racial group to join them.
I always rather liked the fact that being 1/8th Jew was enough to send you to the gas chambers, but being 7/8th "Aryan" wasn't enough to be allowed to live. My dirty sense of logic defers from this that the 'Jewish race' seems to be a lot stronger than the 'Aryan race' if such small quantities can suffice with one when such large ones don't with the other..

huh?

you are your university's token jew and you are commanded to give a talk on how jews feel about christmas?

why didnt you refuse?

or perhaps it was for a Jewish studies class..?

give me a break!

If I were the kind who sigs strong quotes rather than light music, I'd sig this.


I always rather liked the fact that being 1/8th Jew was enough to send you to the gas chambers, but being 7/8th "Aryan" wasn't enough to be allowed to live. My dirty sense of logic defers from this that the 'Jewish race' seems to be a lot stronger than the 'Aryan race' if such small quantities can suffice with one when such large ones don't with the other..


Not quite. As defined by the Nuremberg laws in 1935, a Jew was somebody who had at least three Jewish grandparents --- regardless of religious affiliation or self-identification. The latter did matter for people with two Jewish grandparents: if they belonged to the Jewish religion or were married to Jews, they were classified as Jewish; if neither, they were considered Mischlinge of the first degree. Somebody with only one Jewish grandparent was classified as a Mischling of the second degree.
You had to have 3 jewish grandparents to be gassed. And 3/4 of your grandparents would certainly not constitute 1/8 jewish but closer to being more jewish then non-jew.


Also ironically mischlinge, people with 1 or 2 jewish grandparents sometimes had high positions in the Third Reich;

* Commander Paul Ascher, staff officer on the Bismarck
* Major Ernst Bloch, a veteran of the First World War, he had fought at Verdun, the Somme, Champagne and Flanders. He was promoted to Lt Colonel during the Second World War, but was discharged after Heinrich Himmler made a personal protest to Hitler
* Major Robert Borchardt, originally discharged for his Jewish heritage in 1934, he was reinstated after receiving a German Blood Certificate
* SS Gen. Curt von Gottberg lobbied to have his two Jewish nephews exempted, and in 1940 they both received the GBC.
* Generaloberst Gotthard Heinrici received Certificates for his half-Jewish wife, Gertrude, and their children.
* Col Walter Hollaender, winner of the Knight's Cross, member of the Reichswehr
* Anton Mayer, Wehrmacht
* Field Marshall Erhard Milch; his personal friend Hermann Göring later falsified records to hide evidence that Milch's father was Jewish.
* Admiral Bernhard Rogge
* Alexander Stahlberg
* General Johannes Zukertort, a half-Jew

-snipping things very obviously better researched than my utterings-

Scanning over the Rassengesetze article on Wikipedia (unfortunately, shoa.de seems to have taken their article offline for the time being), they agree with you. Somehow, the "Achteljude was the cut-off where you still counted as Jewish for certain purposes" seems to be a snippet very clearly burned into my brain, I wonder how and why.. but I guess I won't get an answer this night, as I'm not ready to research it too much now. Thanks for correcting me, though :]

Actually, I don't want to hide that the Wiki article on Rassenschande even says the following:
[...]die Eheschließung zwischen Juden und jüdischen Mischlingen mit nur einem Großelternteil untersagt sei, da diese den „Deutschblütigen“ zugerechnet werden sollten.

(Half-assed translation: Marriages between Jews and persons with only one Jewish grandparent are to be prohibited, as the latter are to be counted as "persons of German blood")

Funnily enough, though, the English version of that Wiki article (that one's called "Nuremberg Laws") states rather at the top, under Section 2 of the "Law for the Protection of German Blood and German Honour":
Supplementary decrees defined a Jew as a person with at least one Jewish grandparent

I guess it's up to us now to decide whether this is a shining example of why not to use the scientifically, ahem, disputed wiki, or as an example of the stunningly illogical and inconsistent Nazi 'logic', or both.

Scanning over the Rassengesetze article on Wikipedia (unfortunately, shoa.de seems to have taken their article offline for the time being), they agree with you. Somehow, the "Achteljude was the cut-off where you still counted as Jewish for certain purposes" seems to be a snippet very clearly burned into my brain, I wonder how and why.. but I guess I won't get an answer this night, as I'm not ready to research it too much now. Thanks for correcting me, though :]

Actually, I don't want to hide that the Wiki article on Rassenschande even says the following:


The modern media and ignorant misconceptions often associate things with the National Socialist regime that are misleading or false. This is not to say that the NS state was not inhumane.
In the end their very goal was simply to cull out unwanted specimens in the gene pool. They killed people of more than 50% jewish heritage, and those with lesser were forbidden to marry any non-aryans. This was to make sure those with the little drops of jewish blood would be further Aryanized and not increase the amount of jews in their family tree.


Also of further interest I am sure you might know that Karaite jews actively participated in the SS in their own division;

"The Karaite sect should not be considered a Jewish religious community within the meaning of paragraph 2, point 2 of the First Regulation to the Reich Citizenship Law. However, it cannot be established that Karaites in their entirety are of blood-related stock, for the racial categorization of an individual cannot be determined without ... his personal ancestry and racial biological characteristics"
- (YIVO archives, Berlin Collection, Occ E, 3, Box 100, letter dated January 5, 1939)

This ruling set the tone for how the Nazis dealt with the Karaite community in Eastern Europe.

At the same time, the Nazis had serious reservations towards the Karaites. SS Obergruppenfuhrer Gottlob Berger wrote on November 24, 1944:

"Their Mosaic religion is unwelcome. However, on grounds of race, language and religious dogma... Discrimination against the Karaites is unacceptable, in consideration of their racial kinsmen [Berger was here referring to the Crimean Tatars]. However, so as not to infringe the unified anti-Jewish orientation of the nations led by Germany, it is suggested that this small group be given the opportunity of a separate existence (for example, as a closed construction or labor battalion)... "


In other words they were practicing jews, however their ethnicity was Crimean and according to the NS racial anthropologist at the time Aryan. However there was still some questions in the SS itself of allowing in members who regularly attended a synagogue. I wonder how the jewish veterans of the Crimean Tartar division were treated as by other jews after the war.

The modern media and ignorant misconceptions often associate things with the National Socialist regime that are misleading or false.
I think that with a big phenomenom like the Nazi era, there will alsways be a flurry of misconceptions and misinformation. To pin that down to 'the modern media' and 'ignorant misconceptions' sounds a bit, how do you say, ideological.
In the end their very goal was simply to cull out unwanted specimens in the gene pool.
I've read some rather interesting essays on the economic and mass-psychologist, intended aspects of these killings, in addition to the racist one.
-snipping the Karaites thing-
No, I've managed to never have heard of the Karaites before, let alone their service in the SS.

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. Yay!
Okay, thanks for clarifying that; I guess I misunderstood something there. That's a very interesting, uh, duality for me here; I always thought of it in the strict terms of either "will see Christmas as the religious celebration of a different religion and therefore not partake in any of it" or "will see it as a rather non-religious festivity and therefore just join the fun". If I understood you correctly, I can now add "understands Christmas to be more of a not exactly strictly religious holiday (anymore) and enjoys the festive atmosphere without flat out rejecting it due to its Christian roots, but nevertheless declines to actively take any part in the rituals etc. because those are of non-Jewish religious nature after all"?

So.. this makes you a passive Christmas enjoyer, but an active not-Christmasser? [TM] Yeah, passive observer and appreciater. I don't think there's a particularly strong duality here. One can observe, take in, understand (to an extent), and even value and enjoy something that they don't participate actively in. I am surrounded by it, (living in Canada) so by observing I guess I do participate in a very limited way, just as one is part of most everything that surrounds one.

I'm not not joining the fun because I reject it as a religious holiday - like I said, I don't believe in religion period - but more because I just wouldn't find it fun. Circular, maybe. Arbitrary, maybe. But one has to make choices and distinguish things somehow, and doing it according to personal comfort level is as good a way as any. The fact that that personal comfort level is based in my Jewish identity and upbringing is entirely incidental, and highly arbitrary I suppose. Yet - it is still a fairly strong mover and shaker in my life. It comes down to Humans being social animals that form groups, which create "identity kits" of sorts. Your identity kit can change somewhat, but especially if you've had a positive experience with the one you grew up with, they tend to stick in a profound way. At least I think that that has been the case with me.



But then again, I think I can somewhat feel what you mean with the underlined part (and, by the by, I think you phrased that very well).
With the danger of going off on a tangent here: I have been born with one hand only, and with me growing adult and science progressing the way it does, there has been talk about maybe getting one of those artificially made hands that are fitted you and that you, with some training, can actually move a lot like a real hand once they are sufficiently developed, which could be very soon. Now, how this relates to what you said is that funnily enough (and no one understands this around here) I am very, very reluctant, if not to say opposed, to that idea- this physical oddness of mine has been one of my features, something of 'mine' or even 'me' for twenty years now, or, to phrase it negatively to fit your phrase, having those two regular hands has somwhat definingly been something that I just have not been, and in some (some say perverted) way it is a characteristic I have grown attached to, that is a dear partnof me, amd that I'm not really willing to change- even seeing how that might objectively be beneficial to me, which the Christmas thing would probably not claim. ;]Ah, I think your comparison with your hand is interesting. In a similar way, it isn't something you chose, it isn't something that one would normally construe as beneficial, and it is certainly different. But you own it in an intimite way. I think there are similarities there to a minority religion (or culture) particularly. While it may be "beneficial" to assimilate completely, or going back to the previous example, reconcile with a future partner from a different background and "share" traditions, I just would not want to at all.

Title should have been "Are Jew upset now?"

With the 'knowledge' I have so far, I resent the notion that in order to be Jewish, and that includes 'properly Jewish', you have to be able to trace your genetic line back to any Levite 2000 years ago.

You don't. You have to be able to trace your "genetic line" matrilineally back to a Jewish female, or you have to undergo the conversion process.

Certainly, you don't have to go 2000 years back, and Levites have nothing to do with it.

As a reform jew living smack dab in the middle of an entire state dominated by christians, christmas doesnt really bother me much anymore, its just one of those days that means something to other people, just not me.

Dear Jew, Jewess, otherwisely Jewish or at least loosely Jewishly connected person, dear people somehow innocently trapped in the Jewish culture/tradition/customs,

Erm...am I mistaken? Are you completely oblivious to how insulting this sounds? If I walked over to say...my wifes father and said "Hey Jew, howzit hanging? He would have to think about whether he should punch me for calling him "Jew" or whether I was refering to his pecker.:eek:

Although you do make up for it by calling them "dear people" :D

(I am not really trying to pick a fight, it's just that my wife leaned over and read your thread title and called you a jerk lol! (she's jewish)

Erm...am I mistaken? Are you completely oblivious to how insulting this sounds? If I walked over to say...my wifes father and said "Hey Jew, howzit hanging? He would have to think about whether he should punch me for calling him "Jew" or whether I was refering to his pecker.:eek:

... you make it sound as if being a Jew is a bad thing, or that Jew is an expletive.

It all depends on how it is used. Jesus was a jew isn't an insult. Strange that a word can be used one way and be fine and another and bad, but there you are.

I have never heard a practiicng jewish person say "Jew" around me. And I know a lot of them. Maybe I just never noticed? Anyway, Rie was miffed. She's gone to sleep so I can't ask tonite. I'll follow up tommorrow...IMHO Jewess sounds like some old witch who sits in front of a boiling pot and cackles and has baby snakes crawling out of her pockets...eh?

Maybe it is a locality thing. I grew up in the south. Is it not polite there?

http://www.shortpacked.com/d/20060911.html

SWEET!

Yeah, passive observer and appreciater. I don't think there's a particularly strong duality here. One can observe, take in, understand (to an extent), and even value and enjoy something that they don't participate actively in. I am surrounded by it, (living in Canada) so by observing I guess I do participate in a very limited way, just as one is part of most everything that surrounds one.

I'm not not joining the fun because I reject it as a religious holiday - like I said, I don't believe in religion period - but more because I just wouldn't find it fun. Circular, maybe. Arbitrary, maybe. But one has to make choices and distinguish things somehow, and doing it according to personal comfort level is as good a way as any. The fact that that personal comfort level is based in my Jewish identity and upbringing is entirely incidental, and highly arbitrary I suppose. Yet - it is still a fairly strong mover and shaker in my life. It comes down to Humans being social animals that form groups, which create "identity kits" of sorts. Your identity kit can change somewhat, but especially if you've had a positive experience with the one you grew up with, they tend to stick in a profound way. At least I think that that has been the case with me.
That's been one of the best posts I've seen in my two years of active NS foruming- I herewith award you the Official SoWiBian Cactus of Appreciation.


Title should have been "Are Jew upset now?"
I'm not the punny kind.

As a reform jew living smack dab in the middle of an entire state dominated by christians, christmas doesnt really bother me much anymore, its just one of those days that means something to other people, just not me.
Seems a trend.
When you say 'not anymore', does that imply that it bothered you more 'before', whenever that was?
And so what do you do on/surrounding Christmas? Do you just enjoy a quiet day or two off at home?

Erm...am I mistaken? Are you completely oblivious to how insulting this sounds?

If this does indeed sound insulting, then yes, I am oblivious to it.
Had I called the thread "Dear kike, ...", I could see your point. I'm no native speaker, but I gathered that 'kike' was a derogatory word supposed to convey the massage that the speaker holds Jews in contempt.
'Jew', though, I thought to be a neutrally connotated (oxymoron, I know) word. As in, a mere descriptive term. It's been supposed to address all Jews on NSG, and as unfortunately I don't know all their names (and I believe there's a character limit on thread titles), this had to do.
Just to try out a new bad analogy, would you consider it offensive if I made a thread called "Dear Germans,.." if I wanted a German input on something? I hope not, and I, as a German, sure wouldn't. "Dear krauts,..." on the other hand might be.

As somebody else already pointed out, you, ironically, are the one who indirectly and unconsciously are insulting by implying that 'Jew' is a derogatory thing, and therefore that Jewish is somehow bad, which si the only logical explanation of why being called 'Jewish' were an insult.

" Dear Jew, are you upset now ? "

Who cares ?
:( This is only another of those ain´t-it-great-to-be-a-jew threads

:D [LIST]

If this does indeed sound insulting, then yes, I am oblivious to it.
Had I called the thread "Dear kike, ...", I could see your point. I'm no native speaker, but I gathered that 'kike' was a derogatory word supposed to convey the massage that the speaker holds Jews in contempt.
'Jew', though, I thought to be a neutrally connotated (oxymoron, I know) word. As in, a mere descriptive term. It's been supposed to address all Jews on NSG, and as unfortunately I don't know all their names (and I believe there's a character limit on thread titles), this had to do.
Just to try out a new bad analogy, would you consider it offensive if I made a thread called "Dear Germans,.." if I wanted a German input on something? I hope not, and I, as a German, sure wouldn't. "Dear krauts,..." on the other hand might be.

As somebody else already pointed out, you, ironically, are the one who indirectly and unconsciously are insulting by implying that 'Jew' is a derogatory thing, and therefore that Jewish is somehow bad, which si the only logical explanation of why being called 'Jewish' were an insult.
Um...I didn't bring up that you implied someone was "jewish" I asked if being called "jew" was insulting to jewish people. Maybe I was unclear--I thought it was funny when my wife sniffed at you. Saying: "Dear Jew" isn't quite the same as saying "My dear Jewish friends" or "To the Jewish people on the board" I do not know why, or how that is, but somehow it seems that way. Again, it may be a locality thing, but I grew up in Louisiana, and now live in LA, and still it seems the unofficial rule of etiquette. I have no idea why, or even if I am right, I just saw your thread title and it occured to me to ask. I think maybe I am unable to properly ask the question in a way that doesn't make me look stupid or touchy (I am neither)

I can only guess that it is somehow related to the "N" word or coonass (a local description of a cajun) in that only if you are of that group is it nice to say...But what do I know> I'll ask her in the morning.

" Dear Jew, are you upset now ? "

Who cares ?
:( This is only another of those ain´t-it-great-to-be-a-jew threads
I'm praying day and night to grow up to be just like you and be able to understand a thread before even having read the OP, but so far, no luck. Maybe I should change deities.

:D
Um...I didn't bring up that you implied someone was "jewish" I asked if being called "jew" was insulting to jewish people. [...]Saying: "Dear Jew" isn't quite the same as saying "My dear Jewish friends" or "To the Jewish people on the board" I do not know why, or how that is, but somehow it seems that way.

Okay, get it. Again, me being an ESL might keep me from getting all the shades of the word. I actually do understand that it is a nuance different from, say, 'Dear people of Jewish faith', and that slightly different tone has probably been intended, but I did not consider it to be downright offensive.

the term "jewess" is decidedly derogitory. Just like the Yiddish word "shiksa," except refering to the Jew instead of the Goy.
Yup.
I can now add "understands Christmas to be more of a not exactly strictly religious holiday (anymore) and enjoys the festive atmosphere without flat out rejecting it due to its Christian roots, but nevertheless declines to actively take any part in the rituals etc. because those are of non-Jewish religious nature after all"?

So.. this makes you a passive Christmas enjoyer, but an active not-Christmasser? [TM]That's me! What a great way of summing it all up. Man, Germans are good at making accurate catigories

the term "jewess" is decidedly derogitory. Just like the Yiddish word "shiksa," except refering to the Jew instead of the Goy.
I'm sorry, that was where I couldn't restrain myself and did a little ironic play on PC versus the negative connotation of 'Jewess'. Don't take those things, coming from me, serious. (P.S. I only knew the German-Yiddish word 'Schickse', but I guess it's the same thing)
That's me! What a great way of summing it all up. Man, Germans are good at making accurate catigories
Nah, actually, it is Kreitzmoorland who does the fantastic (sum-up) posts, I just regurgitate them in slightly different words.

And, umm, the irony of you congratualting 'us' Germans on our ability to make up "accurate categories" a few posts after Cybach and I argued the Nazi-German classification system of people into varying degree of (bogus) Jewishnes is quite amusing.

Yah, so Rie woke up and I asked her. She said to think of it this way:

You wouldnt say "dear Catholic"
or "Dear white"
or "Dear muslim"
why would you say "dear Jew"?


which makes a little sense i guess.
with that I'll let this fade into the darkness as it was never intended to turn into anything but a silly reply. I apologize to anyone who I may have unintentionally perturbed...

Yah, so Rie woke up and I asked her. She said to think of it this way:

You wouldnt say "dear Catholic"
or "Dear white"
or "Dear muslim"
why would you say "dear Jew"?


which makes a little sense i guess.

Actually.. I'd say every single one of them. Let aside 'Dear white' that some people might find offensive due to the "there is no such thing as a biologically founded 'race' definition" argument, I can't possibly fathom what the problem with 'Dear Catholic' or 'Dear Muslim' is..

Who cares?

Should be "Are Christians upset now? with all the anti Christian cr4p that's going about.

Majority rules I say, Christianity is the major world wide religion so get over it. Christmas is here, we have to put up with all the other religions through out the friggin year. My kids have to put up with all the non Christians whining at school, another place where religion should be banned. :upyours:

-snip-

Everyone, please welcome exhibit B for "why I should read a thread before spouting ahead" in here.

Everyone, please welcome exhibit B for "why I should read a thread before spouting ahead" in here.

Who cares. Ban religion:upyours:

Who cares. Ban religion:upyours:

You display an overwhelming amount of highly emotionally charged emoticons for an alleged not caring.

That, and I think I'd like to see ([upyours]) smileys banned before I steer my energy to anything like what you proposed. Religion, and religious people, at least have a certain share amongst them that are unintrusive and not offensive to me, while the [upyours] smiley has a certain tendency to fail at both of these distinguishing marks.

Why does this sound like a candle waiting to erupt in flames?

More like a 60,000 litre tank of petrol...

You display an overwhelming amount of highly emotionally charged emoticons for an alleged not caring.

That, and I think I'd like to see ([upyours]) smileys banned before I steer my energy to anything like what you proposed. Religion, and religious people, at least have a certain share amongst them that are unintrusive and not offensive to me, while the [upyours] smiley has a certain tendency to fail at both of these distinguishing marks.

Like I said, who cares. Religions should be made illegal. They descriminate against other religions. To descriminate against someone/some group by colour, creed, sex or religion should be made illegal. So make religion illegal, problem solved. It's the cause of all troubles around the world.

Like I said, who cares. Religions should be made illegal. They descriminate against other religions. To descriminate against someone/some group by colour, creed, sex or religion should be made illegal. So make religion illegal, problem solved. It's the cause of all troubles around the world.
.

Banning religion would solve nothing, the atheists, deists, agnostics, political extremists and scientific moralists would start fighting over which belief is better. People will believe almost anything and fight over it if given the chance.

That's been one of the best posts I've seen in my two years of active NS foruming- I herewith award you the Official SoWiBian Cactus of Appreciation.
WHOA! Not only do I get compliments, but a cactus too!
*knows all about CAM metabolism in cacti*
*just wrote [aced] her plant physiology exam*
*and purchased HOT patent leather pumps*
*and is leaving for Israel tomorrow*
*and has new Philip Glass music*
*and is the happiest person in the world, having the best day in history*

WHOA! Not only do I get compliments, but a cactus too!
See, everyone, being a good girl on NS does pay off!
*knows all about CAM metabolism in cacti*
*is duly impressed*
*doesn't even know what the hell that is*
*just wrote [aced] her plant physiology exam*
*gives you a mini pot in sky blue to go with the cactus for that*
*and purchased HOT patent leather pumps*
Umm...okay. :]
*and is leaving for Israel tomorrow*
Where have you been? How long will you be staying?
*and has new Philip Glass music*
*confesses ignorance on this one, too*
*and is the happiest person in the world, having the best day in history*
.. and is on NSG? ;D

im a Jew too :)

But i celebrate commercialism. not christmas.
:D

im a Jew too :)

But i celebrate commercialism. not christmas.
:D


W00t, someone is still on topic! *hands out commercialized cookies*

So you celebrate whatever it is Christmas has become? And do you do anything about Hanukkah?

W00t, someone is still on topic! *hands out commercialized cookies*

So you celebrate whatever it is Christmas has become? And do you do anything about Hanukkah?

I celebrate christmas with friends, exchange gifts and drink wine mainly.
I celebrate Hanukkah with family.

I celebrate christmas with friends, exchange gifts and drink wine mainly.
I celebrate Hanukkah with family.

Looks like someone's having the best of both worlds. Never forgo presents if they are at all attainable.

... unfortunately, the Second Grand Rule is to always sneak out of any dues to have to make presents for others, and these two tend to collide..somewhat.