NationStates Jolt Archive


this guy defends Islam...

PsychoticDan
15-12-2006, 08:47
...does that mean he's racist? When you read between the lines you get that he says, "It's those dirty Arabs giving Islam a bad name."

Whatever happens in Iraq, we may be inching closer to a “clash of civilizations” between Islam and the West.

There’s a fatigue in the West with an Arab world that sometimes seems to put its creative juices mostly into building better bombs. Even open-minded people in the West sometimes feel a sense of resignation that maybe the bigots are right: maybe Islam just is intrinsically backward, misogynistic and violent.

After I wrote recently about reform elements in Islam, I received a long note from a 24-year-old Chicagoan, Paul Williams, who ventured what many people feel: “I went to school in Macalester College and the whole time there I wrote paper after paper defending Islam,” he told me. Now, he says, after reading the Koran cover to cover and living in Turkey, he has lapsed into political incorrectness: “The more I’m here the more I’m beginning to think that there’s just something wrong with Islam.”

That’s a common view, shaped partly by the way we in the news business focus on violence in the Islamic world. So let me step up and say that I find the common American stereotypes of Islam profoundly warped.

Those stereotypes are largely derived from the less than 20 percent of Muslims who are Arabs, with Persians and Pashtuns thrown in as well. But the great majority of the world’s Muslims live not in the Middle East but here in Asia, where religion has mostly been milder.

At the moment I’m in Brunei, a Muslim country nestled in Southeast Asia. At the University of Brunei, women outnumber men. Women here drive, fill senior offices in government and the private sector, serve as ambassadors and are pilots for the national airline. “Young women have equal opportunities now — it’s up to your capability,” said Lisa Ibrahim, president of the Young Entrepreneurs Association of Brunei.

Brunei has gold-domed mosques in its skyline, and the sultan has two wives. But Brunei is also home to churches and Hindu temples serving a multiethnic society. Young people flirt together in the cafes, and non-Muslims are allowed to drink alcohol.

Anwar Ibrahim, the former Malaysian deputy prime minister, says he reminds Americans that the most populous Muslim country (Indonesia) is a democracy whose elections run more smoothly than Florida’s.

Yes, Islamists are a threat in Asia, and many imams are more scandalized by female flesh than by honor killings or illiteracy. Indonesia has tried the editor of the local edition of Playboy magazine, and a state in Malaysia has threatened to fine women who wear miniskirts. But Indonesia has had a woman as president, while Bangladesh has had two female prime ministers and has more girls in high school than boys.

“We tend to be more tolerant,” Yusof Halim, a prominent lawyer in Brunei, said of Asian Muslims. He then confided: “My honest opinion is that Arabs are male chauvinists.”

Meanwhile, many Muslims are as disenchanted with us as we are with them. They complain about hypocritical Americans who parrot slogans about human rights but brutalize Muslims at Guantánamo and supply the weaponry that kills Muslim children in Gaza and Lebanon.

The Koran and Bible alike have passages that make 21st-century readers flinch; most Christians just ignore sections on slavery or admonitions to kill a disobedient child. Likewise, some Muslims are reinterpreting Koranic passages on polygamy and amputations, saying they were restricted to particular circumstances that no longer apply.

Frankly, I don’t see that any religion’s influence is intrinsically peaceful or violent. Christianity inspired both Mother Teresa and pogroms. Hinduism nurtured Gandhi and also the pioneers of suicide bombings.

These days, ferocious anti-Semitism thrives in some Muslim countries, but in the Dreyfus affair a century ago Muslims sided with a Jew persecuted by anti-Semitic Christians. And the biggest sectarian slaughter in Europe in modern times involved Christians massacring Muslims at Srebrenica.

The plain fact is that some Muslim societies do have a real problem with violence, with the subjugation of women, with tolerance. But the mosaic of Islam is vast and contains many more hopeful glimpses of the future.

There is a historic dichotomy between desert Islam — the austere fundamentalism of countries like Saudi Arabia — and riverine or coastal Islam, more outward-looking, flexible and tolerant. Desert Muslims grab the headlines, but my bet is that in the struggle for the soul of Islam, maritime Muslims have the edge.
Christmahanikwanzikah
15-12-2006, 08:50
People quote doublespeak in the Bible and Koran but don't go on to the other passages that exemplify which actions have which consequences. Move on... that being toward the quote.

Anyway, I don't see Islam as being a wholly acceptive religion when it okays men to cover up their wives.
PsychoticDan
15-12-2006, 08:53
People quote doublespeak in the Bible and Koran but don't go on to the other passages that exemplify which actions have which consequences. Move on... that being toward the quote.

Anyway, I don't see Islam as being a wholly acceptive religion when it okays men to cover up their wives.

:confused:
Christmahanikwanzikah
15-12-2006, 08:56
I'm saying Islam isn't exactly a wholly accepting religion in itself, which leads me to believe there is something wrong with the religion other than its fundamentalists.
PsychoticDan
15-12-2006, 09:04
I'm saying Islam isn't exactly a wholly accepting religion in itself, which leads me to believe there is something wrong with the religion other than its fundamentalists.

But that's not the point of the piece. If you read it, you'll see that he basically says that America's views about Islam is tainted by media coverage that pays too much attention to the bombs and the terrorism, etc... He basically says that Islam is much more accepting and peacful than the media portrays... then you kinda get his meaning. That's because teh media pays too much attention to ARAB Islam. It's just the Arabs that are fucking crazy. I'm not really PC - I know there's a probelm in this world regarding Islame and nonsecular values. We're gonna go toe to toe over things like women's rights, shaira law... the clash between Islam and the West will be the defining struggle of the 21st century... this is the big showdown. I'm just finding it kinda funny that someone who is trying to ignore any, at the very least, coordinational link between Islam and terrorism uses racism to defend Islam. It's not islam, it's Arabs.
Christmahanikwanzikah
15-12-2006, 09:09
But that's not the point of the piece. If you read it, you'll see that he basically says that America's views about Islam is tainted by media coverage that pays too much attention to the bombs and the terrorism, etc... He basically says that Islam is much more accepting and peacful than the media portrays... then you kinda get his meaning. That's because teh media pays too much attention to ARAB Islam. It's just the Arabs that are fucking crazy. I'm not really PC - I know there's a probelm in this world regarding Islame and nonsecular values. We're gonna go toe to toe over things like women's rights, shaira law... the clash between Islam and the West will be the defining struggle of the 21st century... this is the big showdown. I'm just finding it kinda funny that someone who is trying to ignore any, at the very least, coordinational link between Islam and terrorism uses racism to defend Islam. It's not islam, it's Arabs.

Right. ARAB islam. Completely ignoring the fact that white Islamics also support the insurgency. I'm not saying this to you, only the piece.

Look, my argument is that Islam isn't exactly an accepting religion. The man uses snips from "doublespeak" in the Bible and Koran yet neglects to cover instances in those same books that exemplify which actions need which consequences.

It's not just Arabs that are Islamic fundamentalists.
PIUSXII
15-12-2006, 09:18
I take any religion that was founded by a warrior who slept with a 9 year old with a grain of salt. A big grain too.
PsychoticDan
15-12-2006, 09:21
Right. ARAB islam. Completely ignoring the fact that white Islamics also support the insurgency. I'm not saying this to you, only the piece.

Look, my argument is that Islam isn't exactly an accepting religion. The man uses snips from "doublespeak" in the Bible and Koran yet neglects to cover instances in those same books that exemplify which actions need which consequences.

It's not just Arabs that are Islamic fundamentalists.

Actually, he doesn't take any snips from the Biable or the Koran. He never mentions them. ;)
Wilgrove
15-12-2006, 09:26
How come the moderates aren't trying to silence the loud Islamic fundies? I mean comon, the world already thinks you're bloody thirsty psycho-paths. Might as well kill the fundies.
PIUSXII
15-12-2006, 09:27
I do not agree with Islam but as long as nobody blows up my plane I am happy. I just wish they would convert though, but whatever.
Wilgrove
15-12-2006, 09:28
I do not agree with Islam but as long as nobody blows up my plane I am happy. I just wish they would convert though, but whatever.

Eh they won't use planes again, they'll use something else like tanker trucks filled with gas and oil.
Christmahanikwanzikah
15-12-2006, 09:30
Actually, he doesn't take any snips from the Biable or the Koran. He never mentions them. ;)

The Koran and Bible alike have passages that make 21st-century readers flinch; most Christians just ignore sections on slavery or admonitions to kill a disobedient child. Likewise, some Muslims are reinterpreting Koranic passages on polygamy and amputations, saying they were restricted to particular circumstances that no longer apply.

...
PsychoticDan
15-12-2006, 09:33
...

Okay, he metions the names of the book, but he never quotes them and the article has nothing to do with what either books say. :rolleyes: the article isn't comparitive religion it's news analysis.
PIUSXII
15-12-2006, 09:35
Eh they won't use planes again, they'll use something else like tanker trucks filled with gas and oil.

On second though I'l stay home....with my duct tape...;)

hehe.
Wilgrove
15-12-2006, 09:36
On second though I'l stay home....with my duct tape...;)

hehe.

Don't forget the plastic garbage bags!
PIUSXII
15-12-2006, 09:37
I think I should just become a monk sometimes.
Wilgrove
15-12-2006, 09:39
I think I should just become a monk sometimes.

Nah, the loneliness and the fact that you can't have sex or any meaningful relationship with the opposite sex will kill you or drive you insane.
PIUSXII
15-12-2006, 09:40
Nah, the loneliness and the fact that you can't have sex or any meaningful relationship with the opposite sex will kill you or drive you insane.


well put. I am feeling better already.
Christmahanikwanzikah
15-12-2006, 09:40
Nah, the loneliness and the fact that you can't have sex or any meaningful relationship with the opposite sex will kill you or drive you insane.

I'd put in a comparison with a cardinal, but we all know whats been going on with them... ;)
Wilgrove
15-12-2006, 09:40
well put. I am feeling better already.

No problem. I shall now get drunk.
New Burmesia
15-12-2006, 09:47
No problem. I shall now get drunk.
Enjoy.
PIUSXII
15-12-2006, 09:49
I'd put in a comparison with a cardinal, but we all know whats been going on with them... ;)

media bias and slander?
Cabra West
15-12-2006, 10:16
...does that mean he's racist? When you read between the lines you get that he says, "It's those dirty Arabs giving Islam a bad name."

I wouldn't say he's a racist. The point he makes is that Islam took different forms in different areas of the world, incorporating much of the cuture that predated religion into it. His argument is that it's not Islam that's the problem, but the particular way of understanding the religion shown by certain societies and individuals.
For example, there are Christian communities in Africa who regularly perform female circumcision. They claim that this tradition is rooted in their beliefs (I seem to remember them quoting Paul on that), and that it's the Christian thing to do. Very few Christians even in the USA would agree with that.
The situation with Islam is much the same.
Andocha
15-12-2006, 13:49
I wouldn't say he's a racist. The point he makes is that Islam took different forms in different areas of the world, incorporating much of the cuture that predated religion into it. His argument is that it's not Islam that's the problem, but the particular way of understanding the religion shown by certain societies and individuals.
For example, there are Christian communities in Africa who regularly perform female circumcision. They claim that this tradition is rooted in their beliefs (I seem to remember them quoting Paul on that), and that it's the Christian thing to do. Very few Christians even in the USA would agree with that.
The situation with Islam is much the same.

And a common feature of Islamic fundamentalism is trying to eradicate those localised/syncretist/other versions of Islam. And this is seen primarily visually in the attempt to become 'Arabic' i.e. the adoption of Arabic dress, Arabic values etc. because true Islam originated in Arabia and so on. I'm not sure whether this is of any value, but on our last trip to the Philippines, my mum pointed out how much more easily she could spot Muslims in Manila - "they never used to wear headcaps or dress like that before".
And many Asian Muslims are taking part in Islamic fundamentalism, because the same identity issues that afflict Arab Muslims - albeit to a lesser extent - are present there as well. Some of the most virile Islamic fundamentalist movements have originated outside of the Arabic world - Tablighi Jamaat, the Deobandi school of thought and Jamaat-e-Islamiah (the 'original' Islamist party), all from the subcontinent.

However, the Arab world does deserve special mention because the politics of the region has been considerably more disrupted than anywhere else in the Muslim world - disillusionment with government and economic failure is thus more widespread. Most governments have also failed to engage with their populations sufficiently, like say, Malaysia and Indonesia have, but this is not because of a supposed 'Arab incapability' to rule; it is bad and selfish elite governance that was promoted by geopolitical circumstances. Something that is not limited to the Arab world.
Turquoise Days
15-12-2006, 14:10
I wouldn't say he's a racist. The point he makes is that Islam took different forms in different areas of the world, incorporating much of the cuture that predated religion into it. His argument is that it's not Islam that's the problem, but the particular way of understanding the religion shown by certain societies and individuals.
For example, there are Christian communities in Africa who regularly perform female circumcision. They claim that this tradition is rooted in their beliefs (I seem to remember them quoting Paul on that), and that it's the Christian thing to do. Very few Christians even in the USA would agree with that.
The situation with Islam is much the same.

This is roughly what I think - it could be equated to the differing views of Americans, for example (not religious, I know). The people on the edge tend to be more liberal and open minded, while in the middle you get Kansas. This is why I'm such a fan of what could possibly be termed multiculturalism, because uniformity only encourages stagnation and extremism.
Eve Online
15-12-2006, 14:25
But that's not the point of the piece. If you read it, you'll see that he basically says that America's views about Islam is tainted by media coverage that pays too much attention to the bombs and the terrorism, etc... He basically says that Islam is much more accepting and peacful than the media portrays... then you kinda get his meaning. That's because teh media pays too much attention to ARAB Islam. It's just the Arabs that are fucking crazy. I'm not really PC - I know there's a probelm in this world regarding Islame and nonsecular values. We're gonna go toe to toe over things like women's rights, shaira law... the clash between Islam and the West will be the defining struggle of the 21st century... this is the big showdown. I'm just finding it kinda funny that someone who is trying to ignore any, at the very least, coordinational link between Islam and terrorism uses racism to defend Islam. It's not islam, it's Arabs.

Think of it this way.

If you belong to a group that's being blamed for something, you subdivide the group and try to say, "well, it's not really the superset that is the problem, it's this subset over here".

And they won't see it as racism - they'll color it in shades of gray, so you'll have to pick it out like you are doing here.
Eve Online
15-12-2006, 14:39
Besides, it's only racism if Americans do it.
The Pacifist Womble
15-12-2006, 15:05
...does that mean he's racist? When you read between the lines you get that he says, "It's those dirty Arabs giving Islam a bad name."
No, he's just pointing out that the problems that we see are cultural problems, not religious problems.
Greyenivol Colony
15-12-2006, 15:07
Look, my argument is that Islam isn't exactly an accepting religion...

No religion is. The hallmark of a religious moderate is that they are able to selectively ignore parts of their religious teachings that interfere with being a civilised human being.
The Pacifist Womble
15-12-2006, 15:11
How come the moderates aren't trying to silence the loud Islamic fundies? I mean comon, the world already thinks you're bloody thirsty psycho-paths. Might as well kill the fundies.
Yes, they should demonstrate their moderation and non-violence by killing the fundies. :rolleyes:
Pure Metal
15-12-2006, 15:13
...does that mean he's racist? When you read between the lines you get that he says, "It's those dirty Arabs giving Islam a bad name."

i think the moral of the story is: fanaticism is stupid.