NationStates Jolt Archive

Seinfeld and Friends are the two biggest turds to ever slither out of the Ulcered Sphincter of Asserica

Yes, shocking as this may be to the nation that cannot understand irony, but Seinfeld and Friends are two of the most puerile and worthless institutions america has ever spawned.

Really, you didn't need to invade Afghanistan and Iraq to earn the rest of the world's contempt...

I long ago stopped watching network TV...

...I've been phasing out cable as well. It's getting down to just movies.

We still make good movies...once in a while.

I long ago stopped watching network TV...

...I've been phasing out cable as well. It's getting down to just movies.

We still make good movies...once in a while.

And some good TV shows, such as King of the Hill.

"Prepare your brains for... RAZZLE-DAZZLE!"

As I’ve said before, if you don’t get Seinfeld, there’s no helping you. I don’t deny that the show is quite juvenile, but if you’re so uptight that you can’t appreciate stupid humor, I pity you.

As I’ve said before, if you don’t get Seinfeld, there’s no helping you. I don’t deny that the show is quite juvenile, but if you’re so uptight that you can’t appreciate stupid humor, I pity you.

Stupid humor is fine...

...reused plotlines focusing on horrificly self-centered characters? Not so much.

I'll agree completely on Friends - that show always bored me to tears. As for Seinfeld, while I never found it particularly great, I never found it particularly awful either. It's certainly superior to most sitcoms (not that that's saying a great deal).

As I’ve said before, if you don’t get Seinfeld, there’s no helping you. I don’t deny that the show is quite juvenile, but if you’re so uptight that you can’t appreciate stupid humor, I pity you.

I enjoy Spaced, Blackadder, Monty Python, Aaagh Its The Mr Hell Show, That's My Bush - just to name a few
There's some pretty stupid humoUr in there...
But Seinfeld still strikes me as repetition as a substitiute for wit
Kinda like my friday night work drinks - except that's substituting loudness for wit...

the Ulcered Sphincter of Asserica

Pithy. I likes! Welcome to the fora.

Stupid humor is fine...

...reused plotlines focusing on horrificly self-centered characters? Not so much.

So many american sitcoms are based around phenomenally self-centered characters.
And most of the 'conflicts' arise simply because the characters are so utterly self-absorbed that they inevitably leap to ludicrous conclusions, over-react, and are humbled in some way.
Which leads to the "everyone shouts at once" conclusion...

What I appreciate most from any comedy is freshness of the humour - the unexpectedness of the jokes. Spaced is a good example of this.
Whereas with Seinfeld, most of the punchlines are a letdown because they've been telegraphed throughout the entire episode and the delivery of the punchline is so predictable it loses its impact.

Pithy. I likes!

Actually a line from "V For Vendetta" (Wachowski bros movie version)

I *really* wish I could claim credit for it...

As I’ve said before, if you don’t get Seinfeld, there’s no helping you. I don’t deny that the show is quite juvenile, but if you’re so uptight that you can’t appreciate stupid humor, I pity you.

I appreciate just about every type of humor

Sienfield just happens to not be very humorous.

So many american sitcoms are based around phenomenally self-centered characters.
And most of the 'conflicts' arise simply because the characters are so utterly self-absorbed that they inevitably leap to ludicrous conclusions, over-react, and are humbled in some way.
Which leads to the "everyone shouts at once" conclusion...

Hence why I no longer watch network TV.

I deal with enough idiocy from real people, thanks.

Actually a line from "V For Vendetta" (Wachowski bros movie version)

I tend to stay away from those trannies' crap ever since Matrix II and III. Pee-eeuw!

I *really* wish I could claim credit for it...

Stealing gracefully is a vaunted talent, so welcome, anyway.

Honestly, which is worse...

Blue Collar TV
Seinfeld

I tend to stay away from those trannies' crap ever since Matrix II and III. Pee-eeuw!

Stealing gracefully is a vaunted talent, so welcome, anyway.

i appreciate the anti-Wachowski sentiment, but I read V For Vendetta in my late teens (i'm now 33) and when i heard they were doing the movie i focussed on teh original matrix (and bound) and figured they'd prolly do a more faithful rendition than most directors and wasn't disappointed in the least

i recommend V For Vendetta to anyone looking for different perspective on the overbearing "war on <xxxxx>" propaganda flooding our media



btw - how the frack do i get rid of the "New Member" tag?

btw - how the frack do i get rid of the "New Member" tag?

Post more. :)

i appreciate the anti-Wachowski sentiment, but I read V For Vendetta in my late teens (i'm now 33) and when i heard they were doing the movie i focussed on teh original matrix (and bound) and figured they'd prolly do a more faithful rendition than most directors and wasn't disappointed in the least

i recommend V For Vendetta to anyone looking for different perspective on the overbearing "war on <xxxxx>" propaganda flooding our media

"Our" media? Honey, no. Your media. But I might just bittorrent some day when I'm bored.

btw - how the frack do i get rid of the "New Member" tag?

By posting. It's tied to your post count.

Hence why I no longer watch network TV.

I deal with enough idiocy from real people, thanks.

i've not had a telly for over three years
which isn't to say i don't watch tv shows - i've been particularly enjoying BSG (go suicide bombers!)

never seen either one of these shows, never wanted to.

"Our" media? Honey, no. Your media. But I might just bittorrent some day when I'm bored.

Please seed.

Please seed.

I always do. Tit for tat, top for bottom.

Honestly, which is worse...

Blue Collar TV
Seinfeld

Seriously. I mean, I'm not that big a fan of either show, never watched either of them that often-but seriously, The Secret Diary of Desmond Pfiffer? Hell, The War at Home or 20 Good Years if you wanted something current.

Really...I dig this whole 'sophistication by bashing something mainstream' deal, but it's pretty transparent. You might try some real critique...nah, that's too hard. Quip away and pretend.

i think these networks (especially fox... theyve been getting low ratings ever since 24 went off the air) are just trying to throw out stuff this year instead of thinking of anything new.

and, honestly, survivior on another island with nothing really new isnt new. its just survivor (insert number here).

"Our" media? Honey, no. Your media. But I might just bittorrent some day when I'm bored.

By posting. It's tied to your post count.

i'm a kiwi! just because i'm bagging the US media doesn't mean i'm from there - but the entire western media still faithfully relays the government mindlessness on the various "war"s
the war on drugs - i've never heard yet a believable explanation as to how a "war" on drugs could possibly work - the volume of drugs hasn't decreased, the number of drug victims hasn't dropped, the only statistic that's changed under the war on drugs in the percentage of citizens in prison for drug-related offences

the war on terror - one glance at the middle-east will tell you, THAT little myth ain't working out...


thanks for elaborating on the subtitle thing - is there somewhere on this site that explains that in greater detail? i'm finding the navigationa little frustrating - then again i'm also finding that about half the time my posts don't become visible to me for a long time (although others can see them as soon as they're posted)
does anyone know if this site has any problems with apple's safari browser?

...government mindlessness on the various "war"s
the war on drugs - i've never heard yet a believable explanation as to how a "war" on drugs could possibly work

because, in america, war sounds prettier than "fight with drugs" or "battle with drugs" because its a long, drawn out "conflict" against those that smuggle drugs into our country and those that make them illegally.

doesnt make sense, but its almost only a phrase and not a statement.

[QUOTE=Really...I dig this whole 'sophistication by bashing something mainstream' deal, but it's pretty transparent. You might try some real critique...nah, that's too hard. Quip away and pretend.[/QUOTE]

I've only watched half-a-dozen episodes (of Seinfeld) - and really not laughed at any of them, which i consider enough evidence to not persist with the show.
This was several years ago. I really can't remember anything more about the show other than it completely failed to touch my funny bone at all.

To offer a sophisticated critique would require me to actually watch many episodes - an exercise i know i wouldn't enjoy!
the purpose of the thread was to express my agreement with Fassigen ("seinfeld sucks") without hijacking the "I Wish My Parents Were Lesbians" thread altogether

because, in america, war sounds prettier than "fight with drugs" or "battle with drugs" because its a long, drawn out "conflict" against those that smuggle drugs into our country and those that make them illegally.

doesnt make sense, but its almost only a phrase and not a statement.

soundbite politics

I enjoy Spaced, Blackadder, Monty Python, Aaagh Its The Mr Hell Show, That's My Bush - just to name a few
There's some pretty stupid humoUr in there...
But Seinfeld still strikes me as repetition as a substitiute for wit
Kinda like my friday night work drinks - except that's substituting loudness for wit...

Is the Aaargh its the Mr Hell Show still on? I remember seeing a few episodes late at night a few years ago and thinking it was hilarious. But since then, nothing.

Yes, shocking as this may be to the nation that cannot understand irony, but Seinfeld and Friends are two of the most puerile and worthless institutions america has ever spawned.

Watch the Seinfeld episode 'The Gum' and tell me there is no irony.

Seinfeld was a cold, nihilistic comedy with characters who were complete bastards to each other. I loved it.

I can understand not finding it funny, but I don't understand how you can seriously find it worthless when it contributed so much to the development of post-modern television comedy, not to mention in-jokes & continuity, observational humour and coincidences & irony.

Seinfeld and Friends are the two biggest turds to ever slither out of the Ulcered Sphincter of Asserica

Yes, shocking as this may be to the nation that cannot understand irony, but Seinfeld and Friends are two of the most puerile and worthless institutions america has ever spawned.

Really, you didn't need to invade Afghanistan and Iraq to earn the rest of the world's contempt...
http://memepedia.info/images/9/98/Dieinyoursleep.jpg

OP, You could say the same for just about any tv crap. Thats one of the reasons I do not watch tv and haven't for many years.

Honestly, which is worse...

Blue Collar TV
Seinfeld
Blue Collar TV.

Bring back Firefly!

/driveby

Hell, The War at Home or 20 Good Years if you wanted something current.

The War at Home is the 4th show in a series of shows like that that FOX has created then canceled after one or two seasons.

Pithy. I likes! Welcome to the fora.

It's a direct quote from V for Vendetta.

Stupid humor is fine...

...reused plotlines focusing on horrificly self-centered characters? Not so much.
The self-centeredness of the characters is part of what makes it funny.

Seinfeld and Friends are the two biggest turds to ever slither out of the Ulcered Sphincter of Asserica

Yes, shocking as this may be to the nation that cannot understand irony, but Seinfeld and Friends are two of the most puerile and worthless institutions america has ever spawned.

Really, you didn't need to invade Afghanistan and Iraq to earn the rest of the world's contempt...

At least we didn't spawn Benny Hill from the pus-filled vagina that is British television...

does anyone know if this site has any problems with apple's safari browser?

None that I've come across.

Seinfeld is hilarious.

Just watch these episodes
"The Soup Nazi"
"The English Patient"
"The Serenity Now"
"The Contest"
"The Non-fat Yogurt"

Amusingly true for a borderline troll thread. :P

Pithy. I likes! Welcome to the fora.

Of course you would, he's probably just as bad of a troll as you.

I tend to stay away from those trannies' crap ever since Matrix II and III. Pee-eeuw!

If you're going to get your ideas for a movie from an anime you must not do a few things.

1) Screw it up
2) Try to put your own ideas into the sequel
3) Just don't do it at all

i think these networks (especially fox... theyve been getting low ratings ever since 24 went off the air) are just trying to throw out stuff this year instead of thinking of anything new.

and, honestly, survivior on another island with nothing really new isnt new. its just survivor (insert number here).

TV is the same cookie-cutter crap at the moment, but it will stay that way as long as the brain-rotted general public exists.

I do not find "jew jokes" funny what so ever in fact people using the bias on their religion or culture is not funny, like all of the white entertainers who act like gangsters it isn't funny. Seinfeld to me personally has no entertainment value whatsoever. People sitting in a resteraunt talking about things is not that funny. Also the fact that he is playing himself adds to the not so great antics of the show. The bald man is just a horny guy and the neighbor makes no sense...

TV is the same cookie-cutter crap at the moment, but it will stay that way as long as the brain-rotted general public exists.
Because your tastes are so much more refined.:rolleyes:

Seinfeld and Friends are the two biggest turds to ever slither out of the Ulcered Sphincter of Asserica

Yes, shocking as this may be to the nation that cannot understand irony, but Seinfeld and Friends are two of the most puerile and worthless institutions america has ever spawned.

Really, you didn't need to invade Afghanistan and Iraq to earn the rest of the world's contempt...

lol

sorry you didnt like them. im sure the TV development executives will take your preferences into consideration next time. its so much more important to please YOU than the millions of US viewers who put those shows into the top 10 for years.

ya know... your virulent dislike of them makes me suspect that you didnt just watch either of these shows ONCE then never again since they arent your cup of tea. to get to this level of disgust surely you had to watch them over and over again in a masochist orgy of mental abuse.

unless this is a test of the "if you post rudely youll get more responses" theory of popularity...

I do not find "jew jokes" funny what so ever in fact people using the bias on their religion or culture is not funny, like all of the white entertainers who act like gangsters it isn't funny. Seinfeld to me personally has no entertainment value whatsoever. People sitting in a resteraunt talking about things is not that funny. Also the fact that he is playing himself adds to the not so great antics of the show. The bald man is just a horny guy and the neighbor makes no sense...

You have to realize a lot of the writing for the show is based on the experiences of Jerry and Larry David.

Kramer is based on a real person. (Kenny Kramer) and George is based on Larry David.

according to "fans" that i have spoken to the entire reason they found it funny was because it was self centered but now that i have been informed it was based ion real experiences it may have been funny at the time i just don't think it is, i am not trying to convince anyone to believe anything else i just don't find it appealing and the difference in the other people on here not liking it is i actually watched it.

As a television writer, every comedy writer worth the name that I know is in mad amounts of love with Seinfeld and it's easy to see why.

Friends was close to brilliant seasons one through four. It's only when they messed around with the premise that it became so average.

That is true Friends was allright until they messed with it. I enjoyed everyone wanting to be with everyone my only question is: Since some of tehm didn't have jobs then how did they afford those big apartments in New York and how did they afford to go get coffee everyday?

That is true Friends was allright until they messed with it. I enjoyed everyone wanting to be with everyone my only question is: Since some of tehm didn't have jobs then how did they afford those big apartments in New York and how did they afford to go get coffee everyday?

They couldn't but that's the image people want to buy into: rich, beautiful, glamorous people hanging around with their friends and equally beautiful dates whilst never seeming to do any work. It's not a documentary.

As a television writer, every comedy writer worth the name that I know is in mad amounts of love with Seinfeld and it's easy to see why.



Yes it is easy to see why. A show about nothing was an ingenius idea from Larry David. This thread inspired me to pop in Season 4. I'm watching "The Cheever Letters" right now.

"And his dying words were 'cherish the cabin.' Not take care of your sister, who is a parapalegic. Cherish the cabin."

This is as they are preparing to tell Susan's father about Kramer's cigars and the cabin.

i wish documentaries were funny, like in school when the teacher would put in a movie that no one liked adn they would play solitaire on the computer. If they were funny we would have learned.

That is true Friends was allright until they messed with it. I enjoyed everyone wanting to be with everyone my only question is: Since some of tehm didn't have jobs then how did they afford those big apartments in New York and how did they afford to go get coffee everyday?
They can't, the show was a complete shit heap of escapism for the very worst of America.
Seinfeld, on the other hand, was decent. Not really that amazing, but a half-hour a watch every few months.

Seinfeld and Friends are the two biggest turds to ever slither out of the Ulcered Sphincter of Asserica

Yes, shocking as this may be to the nation that cannot understand irony, but Seinfeld and Friends are two of the most puerile and worthless institutions america has ever spawned.

Really, you didn't need to invade Afghanistan and Iraq to earn the rest of the world's contempt...
Is it because all of the cast members, writers, directors and producers are jewish? Because, they are ya know.........

That is true Friends was allright until they messed with it. I enjoyed everyone wanting to be with everyone my only question is: Since some of tehm didn't have jobs then how did they afford those big apartments in New York and how did they afford to go get coffee everyday?

Better question, where does Kramer get his money?

Better question, where does Kramer get his money?

Welfare?

It is true well apparently the real guy sold something in the 80's and made money so yeah. Thanks Chad for that piece of info.

Is it because all of the cast members, writers, directors and producers are jewish? Because, they are ya know.........

Is there anything thats not the jews fault?

Is there anything thats not the jews fault?
hahahhahahahha

hahahhahahahha

Sorry, but some things get really irritating after a few minutes.

pretty much.

Seinfeld and Friends are the two biggest turds to ever slither out of the Ulcered Sphincter of Asserica

Yes, shocking as this may be to the nation that cannot understand irony, but Seinfeld and Friends are two of the most puerile and worthless institutions america has ever spawned.

Really, you didn't need to invade Afghanistan and Iraq to earn the rest of the world's contempt...

you better like Frasier :mad:

Is there anything thats not the jews fault?
You're painting the picture too black and white. I asked that because the topic of judaism on their shows was already addressed, yet no one responded to it. pay attention, bigot.

You're painting the picture too black and white. I asked that because the topic of judaism on their shows was already addressed, yet no one responded to it. pay attention, bigot.

I do believe thats the second time today you've called me a bigot. *I was going to flame, but Nah, been here to long to let a minor n00b irritant bother me*

TV is the same cookie-cutter crap at the moment, but it will stay that way as long as the brain-rotted general public exists

i wish documentaries were funny, like in school when the teacher would put in a movie that no one liked adn they would play solitaire on the computer. If they were funny we would have learned.

I prescribe Ricky Gervais' The Office.

I prescribe Ricky Gervais' The Office.

I Dwight Schrute like that idea.

I prescribe Ricky Gervais' The Office.

ewwwwwwww

As I’ve said before, if you don’t get Seinfeld, there’s no helping you. I don’t deny that the show is quite juvenile, but if you’re so uptight that you can’t appreciate stupid humor, I pity you.

I loved Seinfeld. It was so random...and some of the characters really reminded me of people I grew up with :D So, if you mixed Seinfeld up with ridiculous amounts of sex, fights, whiskey, tequila, pot and acid...you'd get a glimpse at what life was like for me in high school and a bit beyond...hehehehehehe

Seinfeld and Friends are the two biggest turds to ever slither out of the Ulcered Sphincter of Asserica

Yes, shocking as this may be to the nation that cannot understand irony, but Seinfeld and Friends are two of the most puerile and worthless institutions america has ever spawned.

Really, you didn't need to invade Afghanistan and Iraq to earn the rest of the world's contempt...

Interesting.

Friends was crafted in an attempt to appeal to the demographic of the day and while very funny at times was ultimately just consumer pop and could easily draw the long look down the nose from those too good to sully themselves in anything so common, so youre on target there.

But Seinfeld, totally different creature. It was the vision of Lary David and Jerry Seinfeld that went against everything network sitcoms said you were suposed to do.
No one is "loveable", nothing is learned, there is no message, no problem gets resolved and very little ever happens and the majority of the show is just people commenting on what little does happen. An entire episode devoted to waiting for a table at a Chinese restaurant was daring and brilliant.

The show struggled to hold onto a spot in the schedule and was moved around before the general public caught up with the show and jumped on board. It was a television miracle that it made it to the second season.
The final seasons showed how tapped out the writers were and with a still massive public demand for more, they shut it all down.

Humour can be very personal, you may not find it funny at all, but it's almost a crime to not recognise how brilliant it was at what it did.

I'm also not American.

Seinfeld and Friends are the two biggest turds to ever slither out of the Ulcered Sphincter of Asserica


Way to be a flamebaiter, change the USA or I will warn the mods

I enjoy Spaced, Blackadder, Monty Python, Aaagh Its The Mr Hell Show, That's My Bush - just to name a few
There's some pretty stupid humoUr in there...
But Seinfeld still strikes me as repetition as a substitiute for wit
Kinda like my friday night work drinks - except that's substituting loudness for wit...

I adore Black Adder, but if that isn't an ironic pairing...

At least we didn't spawn Benny Hill from the pus-filled vagina that is British television...

Ouch but we also spawned Spike Milligan, Tommy Cooper, Monty Python, Blackadder, Red Dwarf, The Two Ronnies, You Rang M'Lord, Allo Allo and some really evil satire. While in recent years we've been in a slump as far as good comedy goes we still did Black Books and Father Ted. That and Benny Hills chase music rocks, Daphne from Frasier was also a Benny Hill girl.

But to go with the topic I always felt Seinfeld was overrated and while daring for a US show in the UK we'd already gone against the "Network Wisdom" before, I tried watching it a few times and never got it. I only liked the second season of Friends the rest of it was lousy. But America does some good tv take a look at Heroes or Dexter, right now they are both very interesting shows.

But to go with the topic I always felt Seinfeld was overrated and while daring for a US show in the UK we'd already gone against the "Network Wisdom" before,

I don't recall the UK ever having "Network Wisdom" to go against in the first place.


I tried watching it a few times and never got it.

That just speaks to a different sense of humour, not the quality of the show and its writing.
My mother doesn't get Python or Black Adder, but she will pee herself over Mr. Bean.

We used to but we've always had revolutionaries ready to try something different and channels willing to give them airtime. My point was that while Seinfeld was revolutionary for US tv it was less so for British tv.

As to the second point yep you're right which was why I said I felt it was overrated and that I never got it. Both subjective statements. You're not going to get me to change my mind on it the same way I don't expect to change the minds of people who love it.

I mean for example I personally feel The Office is the most overrated piece of crud in history but the critics love it and as long as it's not being forced on me I don't give a damn.

And I should be shot for forgetting to mention Porridge in my list of examples of good British comedy one of the greatest ever created.

Seinfeld and Friends are the two biggest turds to ever slither out of the Ulcered Sphincter of Asserica

Yes, shocking as this may be to the nation that cannot understand irony, but Seinfeld and Friends are two of the most puerile and worthless institutions america has ever spawned.

Really, you didn't need to invade Afghanistan and Iraq to earn the rest of the world's contempt...


You should have some contempt for the terrorist that pissed us off enough to invade Afghanistan and Iraq, because they are the ones the started the whole thing.

We used to but we've always had revolutionaries ready to try something different and channels willing to give them airtime. My point was that while Seinfeld was revolutionary for US tv it was less so for British tv.

As to the second point yep you're right which was why I said I felt it was overrated and that I never got it. Both subjective statements. You're not going to get me to change my mind on it the same way I don't expect to change the minds of people who love it.

I mean for example I personally feel The Office is the most overrated piece of crud in history but the critics love it and as long as it's not being forced on me I don't give a damn.

And I should be shot for forgetting to mention Porridge in my list of examples of good British comedy one of the greatest ever created.

I have no intention of trying to change your mind and have you like Seinfeld.
I just find it bothersome when people declare the value of something not on its own merit but on their subjective taste.

Seinfeld may have been over-hyped and had a particular sense of humour that won't appeal to everyone, especially those that don't haver the frame of reference to see how different it was from its landscape, but over-rated, it wasn't.

(Jerry is in his apartment, obliviously relating the day's events to George.)
Jerry: Over the balcony, bounced off some respirator thing into the patient!
George: What do you mean "into the patient?"
Jerry: Into the patient, literally!
George: Into the hole?
Jerry: Yes, the hole!
George: Didn't they notice it?
Jerry: No!
George: How could they not notice it?!
Jerry: Because it's a little mint. It's a Junior Mint.
George: W-ca-What did they do?
Jerry: They sealed him up with the mint inside.
George: They left the Junior Mint in him?
Jerry: Yes!
George: I-I guess it can't hurt him. People eat pounds of those things.
Jerry: Yes, they eat them. They don't put them next to vital organs in their abdominal cavity!

This is not funny?

Wow.

Thats always going to happen sadly, it takes a lot of training and practice to really view something objectively instead of subjectively. Thats why good critics get their own shows and columns and even then they have trouble being truly objective.

So how about some middle ground here

"Seinfeld won world wide critical acclaim as well as the acclaim of the industry but sadly fails to appeal to everyone. However it did pave the way for improvements in US television as production companies realised that it was possible to buck the networks accepted models for shows and still be successful."

There you go that covers all the points you made about it but still allows me to hold my opinion that the humour in it is overrated.

Thats always going to happen sadly, it takes a lot of training and practice to really view something objectively instead of subjectively. Thats why good critics get their own shows and columns and even then they have trouble being truly objective.

So how about some middle ground here

"Seinfeld won world wide critical acclaim as well as the acclaim of the industry but sadly fails to appeal to everyone. However it did pave the way for improvements in US television as production companies realised that it was possible to buck the networks accepted models for shows and still be successful."

There you go that covers all the points you made about it but still allows me to hold my opinion that the humour in it is overrated.

LOL, sure.

Of course, I don't think it's sad that it doesn't appeal to everyone, I can't imagine any comedy that would. ;)

It's only sad because even in the UK i've had people tell me I have no sense of humour because I don't like it ;) and I hate arguing that humour is subjective :rolleyes: .

It's probably just be me but I think some of the writing in Porridge might get closest to universal humour as I can't think of anyone I've known who doesn't like it. Of course now I've said that there'll be half a dozen people along telling me it sucks.

not the best of porridge but it's an example (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ3mwkJqoSs)