NationStates Jolt Archive

Have you ever just thrown your hands up to the sky and screamed "Smite me now, please!"

Or thrown yourself prostrate on the ground with just utter feelings of disgust and hopelessness?

I had one of those times today and it was horrible.

And so my question is, how do you atheists and agnostics get through times like that? Because it is only by God's grace and the comfort of the Holy Spirit that I make it through times like that.

Have you ever just thrown your hands up to the sky and screamed "Smite me now, please!"

Or thrown yourself prostrate on the ground with just utter feelings of disgust and hopelessness?

I had one of those times today and it was horrible.

And so my question is, how do you atheists and agnostics get through times like that? Because it is only by God's grace and the comfort of the Holy Spirit that I make it through times like that.
Work ... an interesting project ... company of good friends ... a good beer or whisky

You name it ... all of them or one of them depending on what kicked me in the gut that day

Also in the end being an ultra layed back person helps too

We suck it up and move on.

Attempted suicide. Drinking myself to sleep. And roaming endless hours on NSG until I fix the problem.

If all else fails, call up everyone on my phonebook and take them out to eat usually helps.

Have you ever just thrown your hands up to the sky and screamed "Smite me now, please!"No. I say "Smite me ye gods and end the suffering you have wrought upon me." instead.
Or thrown yourself prostrate on the ground with just utter feelings of disgust and hopelessness?Usually I crawl into bed.
I had one of those times today and it was horrible. Good that it's over. Those always suck. :(
And so my question is, how do you atheists and agnostics get through times like that? Because it is only by God's grace and the comfort of the Holy Spirit that I make it through times like that.I take comfort in the fact that I've felt worse before. And should my current state for some reason be worse than what I've already experienced, I take comfort in the fact that it will be better after a year or so at the latest.

I never really get like that, but when I'm feeling blue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG-bDuFk11s

well not really I just get a hug and put my chin up :fluffle:

I never really get like that, but when I'm feeling blue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG-bDuFk11s

well not really I just get a hug and put my chin up :fluffle:

I love you

Have you ever just thrown your hands up to the sky and screamed "Smite me now, please!"

Or thrown yourself prostrate on the ground with just utter feelings of disgust and hopelessness?

I had one of those times today and it was horrible.

And so my question is, how do you atheists and agnostics get through times like that? Because it is only by God's grace and the comfort of the Holy Spirit that I make it through times like that.

yes, frequently. i just despair and want to give up on life and everything. however i'm on medication for it and getting better :)
the most frequent one is wanting to swerve the car right into oncoming traffic.

but as to how i get through it.... i don't know. i don't really remember feeling any different so i just sorta...... get through it. i know it will pass and it does. i guess you could say i have faith in myself.

Have you ever just thrown your hands up to the sky and screamed "Smite me now, please!"

Or thrown yourself prostrate on the ground with just utter feelings of disgust and hopelessness?

I had one of those times today and it was horrible.

And so my question is, how do you atheists and agnostics get through times like that? Because it is only by God's grace and the comfort of the Holy Spirit that I make it through times like that.
No, and, uh, no. But I know what you mean. I get one of those moments every time I get a rejection from another company I've applied to for a job. Which, I'll be honest, is quite often. I'm very glad I'm not naturally predisposed to depression or similar afflictions.

We suck it up and move on.Word.

I.. um.. you know.. just.. uh.. well.. I.. use.. um.. common sense.

yes, frequently. i just despair and want to give up on life and everything. however i'm on medication for it and getting better :)
the most frequent one is wanting to swerve the car right into oncoming traffic.

Ah yea, I get that as well...

Attempted suicide. Drinking myself to sleep. And roaming endless hours on NSG until I fix the problem.

If all else fails, call up everyone on my phonebook and take them out to eat usually helps.

:( I'm sorry.

I'm glad you use the last option.

yes, frequently. i just despair and want to give up on life and everything. however i'm on medication for it and getting better :)

Good. :)

Just a word of caution, make sure you need the medication. I'm sure you and your doctor have gone over that already, but it's always best to keep checking every now and again.

And so my question is, how do you atheists and agnostics get through times like that? Because it is only by God's grace and the comfort of the Holy Spirit that I make it through times like that.
I have the comfort of a holy spirit too...Jack Daniels praise be upon him.

I very rarely despair because I realize it is not helpful to worry about things I neither know or understand. I try to solve my problems, and if that doesn't work I get help; however, I do get comfort from the knowledge that I do not know everything and am limited.

And so my question is, how do you atheists and agnostics get through times like that? Because it is only by God's grace and the comfort of the Holy Spirit that I make it through times like that.

We don't get them. Not the way the religious do anyway.

Ah yea, I get that as well...I don't have a car, so it's usually walk on a street not caring for traffic that appeals to me when I'm depressed.

The only thing that gets me through times like that is knowing that it always gets better after a while.

Have you ever just thrown your hands up to the sky and screamed "Smite me now, please!"

Or thrown yourself prostrate on the ground with just utter feelings of disgust and hopelessness?

I had one of those times today and it was horrible.

And so my question is, how do you atheists and agnostics get through times like that? Because it is only by God's grace and the comfort of the Holy Spirit that I make it through times like that.

I keep breathing and wait for the problem to fix itself if I can't fix it easily.

Good. :)

Just a word of caution, make sure you need the medication. I'm sure you and your doctor have gone over that already, but it's always best to keep checking every now and again.
oh i'm quite sure i do/did. for a start the doctor says the medication simply does nothing for people who don't need it (medically speaking), and its made vast improvements to me mood *nods*
also i'm 100% sure how i was before wasn't "normal"

either way, as much of an athiest as i am, i'm glad that you have something to help you get through the hard times :)

Ah yea, I get that as well...
not nice, is it? sometimes just want to speed up and head straight when the road turns a corner too. getting better at stopping these thoughts too though, yay

Attempted suicide. Drinking myself to sleep.

back in the day (at uni) i'd say ditto. tried suicide and my way of getting through life was to sedate myself with drink and drugs.

something's changed. maybe i found hope. i found a girlfriend and she's helped tremendously. i don't know how i get through now to be honest :confused: :p

i change the subject in my head to something more interesting than my not-so-terrible existence.

I’ve never felt like that actually.

Have you ever just thrown your hands up to the sky and screamed "Smite me now, please!"

Or thrown yourself prostrate on the ground with just utter feelings of disgust and hopelessness?

I had one of those times today and it was horrible.

And so my question is, how do you atheists and agnostics get through times like that? Because it is only by God's grace and the comfort of the Holy Spirit that I make it through times like that.

Athiests and agnostics are mature enough that they don't need fairy tales to get them through frustrating times. They are comfortable enough with the idea that the world is too large and their understanding too limited for them to understand any purpose that their might be or to be upset by the fact that their might not be one.

And if you were in despair, then the Holy Spirit wasn't with you. Or perhaps, you were not with It. A transcendent union with a spirit of holiness is pretty much the opposite of despair. It is the feeling of failing to find satisfaction in material affairs, knowing that such satisfaction will not be forthcoming, and being unable to appreciate spiritual ones.

Perhaps you merely slipped in your faith. It happens. Even all 12 apostles slipped. But you had best be on your guard against mistaking transcendence with fetishism (mystical, not sexual). Ideas (like a bearded old man in the sky) can be fetishized as easily as objects (like a statue of a bearded old man). If you feel despair and tell yourself that God has it all under control over and over again you are just denying your feelings. That's not spirituality. It's no different than a battered wife telling herself "he loves me. He really does," or a scared child who tells himself "the Boogeyman won't see me if I hide under the covers."

When you reach a spiritual source of wisdom, however briefly, you understand which of your feelings stem from weakness, or old pains, or other spiritual deficiencies (e.g. men cheating on their wives because of a fear of mortality and old age, or middle-aged women who blow their savings on plastic surgeries designed to make them look like deformed 30 year-olds) and which stem from physical and emotional needs that are fundamental to the human condition and deserve to be met (like how a craving for particular foods might indicate a nutritional need that has to be addressed, or having sex with a lover).

No amount of praying will ever alleviate lonliness or a craving for fatty foods. Those things are built into our bodies for a reason. If you believe in a personal God who intervenes in the lives of his faithful, then that reason may well be God telling you to do something. If you believe in evolution, then it's natures way of making sure that you consume a steady supply of important nutrients and keeping people around who will help you out when you get into trouble. Either way, a Holy Spirit of any stripe isn't ever going to do you much good.

the most frequent one is wanting to swerve the car right into oncoming traffic.
Just wondering - before you were able to drive, did you often want to step into oncoming traffic just for the hell of it...? I used to get that a lot. I felt that I grew out of it, so I assumed it was just a phase.

No amount of praying will ever alleviate lonliness or a craving for fatty foods. Those things are built into our bodies for a reason. If you believe in a personal God who intervenes in the lives of his faithful, then that reason may well be God telling you to do something. If you believe in evolution, then it's natures way of making sure that you consume a steady supply of important nutrients and keeping people around who will help you out when you get into trouble. Either way, a Holy Spirit of any stripe isn't ever going to do you much good.

Prayer can have highly beneficial psychological and physical effects; I would say that dedicated religious observance can give a person the willpower they need to overcome personal challenges and to make themselves healthier and happier as human beings. I guess depending on your outlook, you could see that as either a placebo effect or God answering their prayers; either way, the effects seem to be the same.

Prayer has always been for our betterment.

Hardly ever.
Hard to say,depends on what kind of life you live.

Prayer can have highly beneficial psychological and physical effects; I would say that dedicated religious observance can give a person the willpower they need to overcome personal challenges and to make themselves healthier and happier as human beings. I guess depending on your outlook, you could see that as either a placebo effect or God answering their prayers; either way, the effects seem to be the same.

Prayer has always been for our betterment.

Prayer reduces activity in the part of the brain that regulates awareness of time and space. Any source of stress will have its impact temporarily reduced by praying.

My point was that there is distress that stems from internal conflicts having to do with unresolved personality conflicts, and then there is distress from unmet needs that are part of just being human.

It is not always to ones betterment to pray. It's only clear function is to make stuff seem more distant and less relevant. If you don't know what you're doing then it leaves you wide open to manipulation. That's why suicide bombers blow themselves up and why otherwise compassionate Christians vote for Republicans. Prayer causes their pangs of conscience seem less distressing, and so they go ahead with what they would otherwise consider unconscienable.

If you want to divorce your spouse because you discovered too late that your spouse is simply unequipped to be a spouse prayer will never improve your situation.

It will help you tolerate the situation, but that just serves to keep you from fixing it.

If you want to divorce your spouse because you yourself aren't mature enough to meed the responsibilities of adult married life, then prayer might help you appraise yourself criticly and see what you need to do (or become) to make your marriage work because infinite adolesence is not a viable option. But that's because prayer will make your defense mechanisms, designed to protect your ego, feel unecessary because your ego will seem less relevant.

Prayer reduces activity in the part of the brain that regulates awareness of time and space. Any source of stress will have its impact temporarily reduced by praying.

And? Frankly, achieving relief through that sounds a lot better than being stuck on pills or therapy especially given the myriad of nasty side effects from those antidepressant medications. I mean, if it works, by all means go with it.

My point was that there is distress that stems from internal conflicts having to do with unresolved personality conflicts, and then there is distress from unmet needs that are part of just being human.[/QUOTE]

It is not always to ones betterment to pray. If you want to divorce your spouse because you discovered too late that your spouse is simply unequipped to be a spouse prayer will never improve your situation.

I don't know, sometimes prayer and religious insight can help resolve problems that other methods couldn't do on their own. I mean, obviously they shouldn't be the basis of resolving your problems but if you believe in it you should try it just to see if it helps. I'd say giving that a shot is better than just giving up and divorcing them; divorce is damn hard, and if the problems can be resolved in some other way you should try it.

It will help you tolerate the situation, that just serves to prevent you from fixing it.

Sometimes, you need that. Temporary relief from problems is necessary to have the will to overcome them for many people; that's why people who quit smoking are more successful if they use a nicotine patch than if they were to just quit altogether.

If prayer provides that kind of support for whatever you're working through, go with it.

If you want to divorce your spouse because you yourself aren't mature enough to meed the responsibilities of adult married life then prayer might help you appraise yourself criticly and see what you need to do (or become) to make your marriage work because infinite adolesence is not a viable option.

Exactly. Prayer is helpful for providing an environment that can give you an insight in to yourself and your problems; one of the most common things that people pray for is guidance, and by praying they can achieve the kinds of insights needed to solve their problem.

Prayer isn't meant to be a solution in and of itself, but a tool for finding the solution.

I am getting the "Despair" feeling much too often these days, but I just try and keep my mind off (hence me being here)

Quote Vetalia:
"" Exactly. Prayer is helpful for providing an environment that can give you an insight in to yourself and your problems; one of the most common things that people pray for is guidance, and by praying they can achieve the kinds of insights needed to solve their problem.

Prayer isn't meant to be a solution in and of itself, but a tool for finding the solution.""

That´s wishful thinking leading to superstition.

*** sorry the bad quoting. Bad luck :) ***

I don't have a car, so it's usually walk on a street not caring for traffic that appeals to me when I'm depressed.

Yeah, I also do that...

I hardly ever have those days anymore.

I think I probably haven't had one since I got married, he tends to keep me from getting that bogged down.

That´s wishful thinking leading to superstition.

Says you. People who have been helped by prayer would beg to differ.

the most frequent one is wanting to swerve the car right into oncoming traffic.


I used to get that a lot, or the thought of just driving off the bridge, or the thought of just slicing up my arm really good.

The longer you are on the meds the less often they happen, until one day you don't think about it at all.

just thought I would give you a little hope. ;)

I smother my feelings under another layer of self-loathing and then cling on regardless of everything, more out of spite than anything else, really.

Says you. People who have been helped by prayer would beg to differ.


Believing that your thoughts and / or your sheer willpower can change the course of events, well...that´s just plain magical thinking, sorry to disappoint you.

Believing that your thoughts and / or your sheer willpower can change the course of events, well...that´s just plain magical thinking, sorry to disappoint you.

praying is not about willpower.

Have you ever just thrown your hands up to the sky and screamed "Smite me now, please!"

Or thrown yourself prostrate on the ground with just utter feelings of disgust and hopelessness?

I had one of those times today and it was horrible.

And so my question is, how do you atheists and agnostics get through times like that? Because it is only by God's grace and the comfort of the Holy Spirit that I make it through times like that.

You tough it out, and sometimes you look for a little perspective. And maybe you have a beer.

Have you ever just thrown your hands up to the sky and screamed "Smite me now, please!"

Or thrown yourself prostrate on the ground with just utter feelings of disgust and hopelessness?

I had one of those times today and it was horrible.

And so my question is, how do you atheists and agnostics get through times like that? Because it is only by God's grace and the comfort of the Holy Spirit that I make it through times like that.

I had never been frustrated enough to wish for my destruction, nor have I thrown myself prostrate since about the age of six.

If you're doing either, may I suggest speaking to your clergyman or a psychologist? Such self-destructive feelings are not healthy.

Have you ever just thrown your hands up to the sky and screamed "Smite me now, please!"

Or thrown yourself prostrate on the ground with just utter feelings of disgust and hopelessness?

I had one of those times today and it was horrible.

And so my question is, how do you atheists and agnostics get through times like that? Because it is only by God's grace and the comfort of the Holy Spirit that I make it through times like that.

Better living through chemistry and therapy?

Believing that your thoughts and / or your sheer willpower can change the course of events, well...that´s just plain magical thinking, sorry to disappoint you.

That's not what praying is about. Even so, belief has had some pretty notable effects; the placebo effect comes to mind and it does happen. Willpower can have dramatic effects.

If you're doing either, may I suggest speaking to your clergyman or a psychologist? Such self-destructive feelings are not healthy.

Haha. I refuse to see psychologists.

And I wish I could go to my pastor, or even an elder. But unfortunately, I can't. It's all very complicated.

And no, those feelings are not healthy, but there's a difference between wanting it to end and seeking to end it.

Haha. I refuse to see psychologists.
why?

And I wish I could go to my pastor, or even an elder. But unfortunately, I can't. It's all very complicated.
maybe you need a new church?

And no, those feelings are not healthy, but there's a difference between wanting it to end and seeking to end it.

it's an unbelievably fine line.

Believing that your thoughts and / or your sheer willpower can change the course of events, well...that´s just plain magical thinking, sorry to disappoint you.
If you want to go based on "hard facts", most, if not all, of the events that happen in your life were predecided by your genetic make-up. Those things that weren't decided by the time you made it out of the womb were decided within the first few years of your existence, years over which you had no control and of which you have no conscious memory.
To believe that humans are capable of changing themselves at a deep level, or to believe that we're anything more than squishy, blood- and pus-filled automatons who stagger blindly about, acting based upon irrational desires, is to engage in "magical thinking."

Personally, I like a bit of magic.

If I feel down, I go out of my way to scream "Defy" to the sky.

why?

My experiences with them have been less than wonderful. They all try to "cure" me of my faith and convince me that my problems really aren't problems: "It's just who you are. These are natural desires. Recent studies have shown..." Plus, the excessive use of prescriptions these days make me wary.

Maybe if I find a Christian one....

maybe you need a new church?

Oh, of course yes, but I am still under the authority of my parents and they want me to remain in the church I'm at now.

it's an unbelievably fine line.

Yes it is.

Have you ever just thrown your hands up to the sky and screamed "Smite me now, please!"

Or thrown yourself prostrate on the ground with just utter feelings of disgust and hopelessness?

I had one of those times today and it was horrible.

And so my question is, how do you atheists and agnostics get through times like that? Because it is only by God's grace and the comfort of the Holy Spirit that I make it through times like that.

Cake.

My experiences with them have been less than wonderful. They all try to "cure" me of my faith and convince me that my problems really aren't problems: "It's just who you are. These are natural desires. Recent studies have shown..." Plus, the excessive use of prescriptions these days make me wary.

There are pastoral counselors, they may not be your denomination but they exist, I went to one that was Catholic and we didn't seem to have any problems even though we really didn't agree theologically, she understood why I felt the way I did and helped me through some really rough stuff.

Have you ever just thrown your hands up to the sky and screamed "Smite me now, please!"

Or thrown yourself prostrate on the ground with just utter feelings of disgust and hopelessness?

I had one of those times today and it was horrible.

And so my question is, how do you atheists and agnostics get through times like that? Because it is only by God's grace and the comfort of the Holy Spirit that I make it through times like that.

I have felt like that, but that was a while ago. I suggest you pray more and read your bible. You will feel better. And remember God looks down on self harm.

There are pastoral counselors, they may not be your denomination but they exist, I went to one that was Catholic and we didn't seem to have any problems even though we really didn't agree theologically, she understood why I felt the way I did and helped me through some really rough stuff.

Thank you for your advice.

And remember God looks down on self harm.

Yes He does, just like with all sins.

Yes He does, just like with all sins.

Is it because he lives in the sky, so he has to look down?

Is it because he lives in the sky, so he has to look down?

hahaha, that reminded me of my 3 year old.

she said one day 'mom, don't atheists have to be self righteous, you know because they don't believe in Jesus?'

Is it because he lives in the sky, so he has to look down?

Looking down, taking notes and probably making videos I mean how else do all these celebrity sex tapes make it onto the internet?

A stiff Manhattan with two cherries, or closing the screen door on the dog on his way into the house after he takes care of business. Either one works for me.

And so my question is, how do you atheists and agnostics get through times like that? Because it is only by God's grace and the comfort of the Holy Spirit that I make it through times like that.

I really hate preachy statements like this.

But I get through it with drugs and liquor. I owe about 2-3 years of my life to drugs and liquor, I wouldn't have got out of bed without 'em.

the most frequent one is wanting to swerve the car right into oncoming traffic.


I don't have a car, so it's usually walk on a street not caring for traffic that appeals to me when I'm depressed.

i find these reactions very disturbing. not because of the feelings, i understand those. its the wanting to kill someone else or destroy their lives while you do yourself in that bothers me.

are you ever dissuaded by the thought of how these actions would affect the guy driving down the street minding his own business?

hahaha, that reminded me of my 3 year old.

she said one day 'mom, don't atheists have to be self righteous, you know because they don't believe in Jesus?'

:D

i find these reactions very disturbing. not because of the feelings, i understand those. its the wanting to kill someone else or destroy their lives while you do yourself in that bothers me.

are you ever dissuaded by the thought of how these actions would affect the guy driving down the street minding his own business?

in my case it was a fleeting thought, almost unconscious, once I really thought about it I was like "wow, that's messed up"

And so my question is, how do you atheists and agnostics get through times like that? Because it is only by God's grace and the comfort of the Holy Spirit that I make it through times like that.

I find comfort in the holy grace of the dancing banana.

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/banana.php

hahaha, that reminded me of my 3 year old.

Hey! :p

she said one day 'mom, don't atheists have to be self righteous, you know because they don't believe in Jesus?'

:)

i find these reactions very disturbing. not because of the feelings, i understand those. its the wanting to kill someone else or destroy their lives while you do yourself in that bothers me.

It's not really wanting to hurt someone else, it's more a "oh, that would do the job" without really thinking it through like that.

are you ever dissuaded by the thought of how these actions would affect the guy driving down the street minding his own business?

Yea...damn conscience...

But yeah, it's an every now and again type of thing. I haven't despaired for a couple months, mainly because I've not had the free time to have emotions, but when I do, a stiff drink and a solid "fuck you" to no one in particular works awfully well.

It's been a while since I've felt like that, but I used to a lot. I've had periods of faith in a higher power and then periods where I lacked it. In those times where I lacked it, I either believed it would get better, or told myself that I would tough it out until some later point in time where I would kill myself, or tell myself to tough it out because killing myself was unpalatable for various reasons.

My experiences with them have been less than wonderful. They all try to "cure" me of my faith and convince me that my problems really aren't problems: "It's just who you are. These are natural desires. Recent studies have shown..." They are natural desires.

I don't know how the religious minded make it through times like that. As an agnostic I can say that life's just tough $#!7 but believing that a god is in control means that either a god is causing your misery or just allowing it to happen... and that would not only compunhd my misery, but just piss me off!

It's been a while since I've felt like that, but I used to a lot. I've had periods of faith in a higher power and then periods where I lacked it. In those times where I lacked it, I either believed it would get better, or told myself that I would tough it out until some later point in time where I would kill myself, or tell myself to tough it out because killing myself was unpalatable for various reasons.

They are natural desires.

I doubt you know what desires I'm talking about, but either way, natural/=/good.

It's not really wanting to hurt someone else, it's more a "oh, that would do the job" without really thinking it through like that.



Yea...damn conscience...

i dont think that such thoughts make you a bad person (just wanting to make that clear) its just disturbing to think that an otherwise gentle soul would think to do something that could kill someone else.

I doubt you know what desires I'm talking about, but either way, natural/=/good.Well, I may or may not, I dunno, though you have mentioned certain desires before.
With that said, it's true that natural isn't equal to good, but what's natural is quite often good.

Well, I may or may not, I dunno, though you have mentioned certain desires before.
With that said, it's true that natural isn't equal to good, but what's natural is quite often good.

I disgree and agree with your last statement.

Sleep. Lots of sleep.

ETA: LOL this is interesting given the post above mine :D
I was just responding to the OP though ;)

2nd ETA: see the post below for the line Edwardis deleted! :eek:

Let sleeping dogs lie, please. Thank you.Fine. Typically, though, if something is causing me despair, I've found it helps to talk about it, whatever it may be.

I disgree and agree with your last statement.Well, from a Darwinian perspective, if it's natural, it probably helped the species to survive at some point, and it only becomes bad if it hinders the species' survival in some way.

Fine. Typically, though, if something is causing me despair, I've found it helps to talk about it, whatever it may be.

That always depends with whom you're speaking, what you're speaking on, who the audience is, and what kind of witness it is.

Well, from a Darwinian perspective, if it's natural, it probably helped the species to survive at some point, and it only becomes bad if it hinders the species' survival in some way.

Well, I'm hardly Darwinian.

hahaha, that reminded me of my 3 year old.

she said one day 'mom, don't atheists have to be self righteous, you know because they don't believe in Jesus?'

*see below* ;)

ETA :( *goes to fix sig*

i find these reactions very disturbing. not because of the feelings, i understand those. its the wanting to kill someone else or destroy their lives while you do yourself in that bothers me.

are you ever dissuaded by the thought of how these actions would affect the guy driving down the street minding his own business?

Speaking as someone who's felt the "wander into the street" impulse on many occasions, you've accurately pointed out why I would never, even at my most suicidal, actually do so. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, the appeal of wandering out in the street was never taking other people down with me, but rather being able to relinquish responsibility for my existence - to be able to let chance or fate or other drivers be in charge of determining whether I lived or died, rather than me. Since I obviously recognize that as being colossally unfair to those other drivers, I never have and never will put that responsibility on them.

And? Frankly, achieving relief through that sounds a lot better than being stuck on pills or therapy especially given the myriad of nasty side effects from those antidepressant medications. I mean, if it works, by all means go with it...
...Exactly. Prayer is helpful for providing an environment that can give you an insight in to yourself and your problems; one of the most common things that people pray for is guidance, and by praying they can achieve the kinds of insights needed to solve their problem.

Prayer isn't meant to be a solution in and of itself, but a tool for finding the solution.

Much of your post seems written to counter the idea that prayer is useless, which I never put forward. My point is that it has particular uses, and should not simply be used as a crutch whenever you feel down, nor should it ever be seen as the solution to a problem.

Using prayer to help solve a problem that you don't know how to work on, nor get to work on after having prayed, is like using a screwdriver to hammer a nail. By inserting it into an electric outlet. You're using the wrong tool, and you're putting it to a completly irrelevant, potentially harmful purpose.

Take our president as an example. By his own admission he signed the order to invade Iraq and then went to pray. He did it exactly backwards. He should have prayed first so that he'd be calm and rational and intune with his unconsious as well as unswayed in his consious mind. And if you're into that sort of thing, he should have prayed to make himself receptive to the guidance of Christ. You know, the guy who hates war.

Instead, he went ahead and signed a war motivated by greed and arrogance. Then he went and prayed that it would work out in his favor.

He doesn't know how to pray. Many people don't. They think they're practicing religion, but they're just practicing emotional fetishism.

My point was not "don't pray."

My point was "don't pray foolishly or superstitiously."

That always depends with whom you're speaking, what you're speaking on, who the audience is, and what kind of witness it is.

Well it's been suggested that you talk to your clergyman and you said you can't. If your pastor can't help you through a spiritual crisis then he's worthless.

And if I remember right, you're an adolescent. All adolescents go through feelings of despair, isolation, and disconnectedness akin to feeling "lost." It's just part of being a teenager.

You've said natural =/= good. That's true, but often necessary =/= good. Going from a cold tile floor to a warm bathtub is initially unpleasant, but ultimatly rewarding. Spiritually, the same is true of a painful adolesence. But part of that is that it prompts you to develop the social skills necessary to find confidants to help you through crises, spiritual as well as circumstantial. This despair might be God's way of telling you to find another faith. Seriously, if your pastor can't help you with this, he's not worthy of the job. Find another.

Much of your post seems written to counter the idea that prayer is useless, which I never put forward. My point is that it has particular uses, and should not simply be used as a crutch whenever you feel down, nor should it ever be seen as the solution to a problem.

Using prayer to help solve a problem that you don't know how to work on, nor get to work on after having prayed, is like using a screwdriver to hammer a nail. By inserting it into an electric outlet. You're using the wrong tool, and you're putting it to a completly irrelevant, potentially harmful purpose.

Take our president as an example. By his own admission he signed the order to invade Iraq and then went to pray. He did it exactly backwards. He should have prayed first so that he'd be calm and rational and intune with his unconsious as well as unswayed in his consious mind. And if you're into that sort of thing, he should have prayed to make himself receptive to the guidance of Christ. You know, the guy who hates war.

Instead, he went ahead and signed a war motivated by greed and arrogance. Then he went and prayed that it would work out in his favor.

He doesn't know how to pray. Many people don't. They think they're practicing religion, but they're just practicing emotional fetishism.

My point was not "don't pray."

My point was "don't pray foolishly or superstitiously."

I agree. Despite being an atheist, I can see the benefit of prayer, especially regarding Bush and Iraq. If the person praying has an image of God as all loving and benevolent, then they would expect any answer to their prayers to reflect this, and be more likely to act like someone being advised by someone loving and benevolent.

Have you ever just thrown your hands up to the sky and screamed "Smite me now, please!"

Or thrown yourself prostrate on the ground with just utter feelings of disgust and hopelessness?

I had one of those times today and it was horrible.

And so my question is, how do you atheists and agnostics get through times like that? Because it is only by God's grace and the comfort of the Holy Spirit that I make it through times like that.

Throwing my hands to some god in the sky would be a marvellous act of dramatics, but serve pretty little in the way of purpose.

I have occassionally come close. Rarely. Usually when, no matter what I do, everything conspires to screw me at the last minute.

What gets me through? I love my wife and my daughter and my son. Just thinking about them is often enough to re-centre me - to focus on what is important. That, and viewing the moment in the context of all moments - I have a bad day now, but I have my writing, etc as long term focus. It helps me keep perspective.

I've only ever felt that once in my life. Earlier this year, I suffered a kind of a mental collapse, and I didn't get out of bed for a week. But since then, I've been able to return to my more or less content self. I am usually pretty happy and optimistic, my collapse was just the end of a perfect storm of numerous bad situations.

And so my question is, how do you atheists and agnostics get through times like that? Because it is only by God's grace and the comfort of the Holy Spirit that I make it through times like that.

Family and friends. People I can actually SEE and TALK with. And who rely on me when they are down, so that we are supporting each other, not just me being entirely dependent upon some omnipotent construct who doesn't really need me at all.

And, ultimately, I rely on myself. I claim responsibility for the choices I make, I deal with the results of those choices. I can accept help from others, but it is also (for me, anyway) good to know that in the end, I am in charge of my own life, I control my own destiny, I direct my own path. Knowing that empowers me to find my own way out of despair, and I don't need to make up invisible supermen to take charge of my existence, I am strong enough to do it myself.

I cry, and if I can manage, I get myself to a friend who can help me. And I remain very grateful that the only knife in my room is quite dull.

If no one is around/answering their phone, I go on to MSN and AIM to see if anyone is there or go to NSG to see if there isn't someone/thing there to talk to.

I feel it almost every moment my brain is not sufficiently stimulated by something else. It is always there, subconsciously, but my conscious mind can safely ignore it some of the time. I distract my brain with something that will make me ignore it, like a computer game or a webforum. Sometimes I attempt to talk to someone on MSN, either about it, or just generally trying to ignore it. When I cannot ignore, I find myself reading about depression on wikipedia, attempting self-diagnosis, and listening to despairing music such as Shostakovich's 5th Symphony (especially the 3rd movement). I think Stephen Fry put it well in that documentary on bipolar disorder, 'I don't want to kill myself, I just wouldn't mind dying'. And as another said above, if you're walking by a road, or driving on it, you want to put the choice off yourself onto the chance of another person. The subconscious thought is not about the well-being of the other person, but the conscious one afterwards normally is.

Meh.

Have you ever just thrown your hands up to the sky and screamed "Smite me now, please!"

Or thrown yourself prostrate on the ground with just utter feelings of disgust and hopelessness?

I had one of those times today and it was horrible.

And so my question is, how do you atheists and agnostics get through times like that? Because it is only by God's grace and the comfort of the Holy Spirit that I make it through times like that.

I used to get that quite a lot, depressions tend to haunt me. Just ask people on NSG, many of them will remember quite a different Cabra West. ;)

I usually try to spend as much time as possible with friends, talk about whatever it is that depresses me, try to see every angle to the situation and so find possible solutions. T remind myself that I've been through situations like this before, that things always eventually get better and that all it really is is a chemical imbalance in my brain. For the emotional balast, I paint, I write stories and poetry, or I simply read. Projecting myself in a fictional character helps sometimes.

No need for any kind of god here.

As an atheist I know that only with my own hard work, luck and friends and family can I improve/get over it/etc, so prayer is just a waste of time.

And so my question is, how do you atheists and agnostics get through times like that? Because it is only by God's grace and the comfort of the Holy Spirit that I make it through times like that.

Sheer bloody-mindedness.

And a sick sense of humour.

Sheer bloody-mindedness.

And a sick sense of humour.

Helps. More than prayer any day.

My experiences with them have been less than wonderful. They all try to "cure" me of my faith and convince me that my problems really aren't problems: "It's just who you are. These are natural desires. Recent studies have shown..." Plus, the excessive use of prescriptions these days make me wary.

Oh. Now it all starts to make a lot more sense.
And those psychologists are right.

hahaha, that reminded me of my 3 year old.

she said one day 'mom, don't atheists have to be self righteous, you know because they don't believe in Jesus?'

I'm curious... what did you reply?

Well it's been suggested that you talk to your clergyman and you said you can't. If your pastor can't help you through a spiritual crisis then he's worthless.

Well, it's very complicated and a lot of things are factors which shouldn't be. It's not that he's worthless, he does a very good job. It's that I specifically (and a few others, probably) would create a lot of problems if I started being a full participant in my church. Which is why I'm looking for a new one.

I'm curious... what did you reply?

I explained to her what self righteous means, and then she said "mommy, I didn't mean to say that about someone" and so I told her it was okay to make mistakes.

Have you ever just thrown your hands up to the sky and screamed "Smite me now, please!"
No.

Or thrown yourself prostrate on the ground with just utter feelings of disgust and hopelessness?
No.

I had one of those times today and it was horrible.
Odd.

And so my question is, how do you atheists and agnostics get through times like that? Because it is only by God's grace and the comfort of the Holy Spirit that I make it through times like that.

Because of the comfort of the Holy Spirit, I never get to that point. See how that works?

Much of your post seems written to counter the idea that prayer is useless, which I never put forward. My point is that it has particular uses, and should not simply be used as a crutch whenever you feel down, nor should it ever be seen as the solution to a problem.

Using prayer to help solve a problem that you don't know how to work on, nor get to work on after having prayed, is like using a screwdriver to hammer a nail. By inserting it into an electric outlet. You're using the wrong tool, and you're putting it to a completly irrelevant, potentially harmful purpose.

Take our president as an example. By his own admission he signed the order to invade Iraq and then went to pray. He did it exactly backwards. He should have prayed first so that he'd be calm and rational and intune with his unconsious as well as unswayed in his consious mind. And if you're into that sort of thing, he should have prayed to make himself receptive to the guidance of Christ. You know, the guy who hates war.

Instead, he went ahead and signed a war motivated by greed and arrogance. Then he went and prayed that it would work out in his favor.

He doesn't know how to pray. Many people don't. They think they're practicing religion, but they're just practicing emotional fetishism.

My point was not "don't pray."

My point was "don't pray foolishly or superstitiously."

kind of a "God helps those who help themselves" type of thing?

I just followed a link to the Stormfront forums and read them for the first time.

Hold me. :(

Have you ever just thrown your hands up to the sky and screamed "Smite me now, please!"

Or thrown yourself prostrate on the ground with just utter feelings of disgust and hopelessness?

I had one of those times today and it was horrible.

And so my question is, how do you atheists and agnostics get through times like that? Because it is only by God's grace and the comfort of the Holy Spirit that I make it through times like that.

I just try to be as cynical as possible.

It passes the time.

Have you ever just thrown your hands up to the sky and screamed "Smite me now, please!"

Or thrown yourself prostrate on the ground with just utter feelings of disgust and hopelessness?

I had one of those times today and it was horrible.

In my house, we call those times "Thursday."

Seriously, though, yes. I have experienced some times of despair.


And so my question is, how do you atheists and agnostics get through times like that? Because it is only by God's grace and the comfort of the Holy Spirit that I make it through times like that.
Sometimes I don't handle such difficulties very well. At one point, I used drugs for all the wrong reasons. At another time, I simply walked around angry and depressed for a couple of years without doing anything productive to deal with my troubles.

I think a lot of it had to do with being young. I simply didn't have experience to help me cope. I'm not any smarter now than I was then, but I have the benefit of having experienced despair and survived it. That perspective helps a lot. I also have the benefit of having tried several different things to cope, and I know some things that help me.

The people in my life are the biggest asset I've got, most specifically my parents. (It doesn't hurt that my mother is a clinical psychologist.) My lover is also an amazing person, and it's kind of hard to really despair when I have such a splendid companion helping me out.

I also know that I suffer from clinical depression. I have used both therapy and medication to help bring this under control, but the biggest step has been learning to recognize when my feelings are purely my own and when they belong to the depression. That helps me to keep a hold of myself and stop myself from spiraling down the way I once did.

I used to dispair when I thought about US foriegn policy, especially directly south of us (as in central and southern america). Now I just pray that the latest wave of democracy in South America doesnt meet the fate of its predecesors.

Much of your post seems written to counter the idea that prayer is useless, which I never put forward. My point is that it has particular uses, and should not simply be used as a crutch whenever you feel down, nor should it ever be seen as the solution to a problem.

Using prayer to help solve a problem that you don't know how to work on, nor get to work on after having prayed, is like using a screwdriver to hammer a nail. By inserting it into an electric outlet. You're using the wrong tool, and you're putting it to a completly irrelevant, potentially harmful purpose.

Take our president as an example. By his own admission he signed the order to invade Iraq and then went to pray. He did it exactly backwards. He should have prayed first so that he'd be calm and rational and intune with his unconsious as well as unswayed in his consious mind. And if you're into that sort of thing, he should have prayed to make himself receptive to the guidance of Christ. You know, the guy who hates war.

Instead, he went ahead and signed a war motivated by greed and arrogance. Then he went and prayed that it would work out in his favor.

He doesn't know how to pray. Many people don't. They think they're practicing religion, but they're just practicing emotional fetishism.

My point was not "don't pray."

My point was "don't pray foolishly or superstitiously."

I really like this post of yours.

I hadn't thought of it from that angle, but I completely agree. Most people I know who pray tend to use it as a way to make themselves feel better after they've already done something. It may work in the sense that it makes them feel nice, but I tend to feel that it's much better to do the praying and the soul-searching FIRST.

A lot of people also seem to pray because they are trying to find a way to feel justified about a decision they've already made. I don't think that's honest or productive. If you have a gut feeling that you should do something, but you don't know why exactly you feel that way, then you need to examine your feeling honestly and completely.

It may be that your gut is right, and you will figure out the real and sound reasoning behind your instinct. On the other hand, sometimes our gut reactions aren't really the best course to take, and you have to be prepared to discover that when you examine your feelings.

I don't personally believe that prayer is the only (or best) way to go about this kind of self-examination, but it can at least be a springboard for something productive. It's sad that there are so many people who just use prayer as an opportunity to search for excuses.

I just followed a link to the Stormfront forums and read them for the first time.

Hold me. :(

:fluffle:

:fluffle:
Thanks... I needed that.
:fluffle:

I will kick adversity right square in the ass, just like I've always done. No use bitching about it.

I really like this post of yours.

I hadn't thought of it from that angle, but I completely agree. Most people I know who pray tend to use it as a way to make themselves feel better after they've already done something. It may work in the sense that it makes them feel nice, but I tend to feel that it's much better to do the praying and the soul-searching FIRST.

I never have prayed to "feel better after already doing something". I don't know many who do.

A lot of people also seem to pray because they are trying to find a way to feel justified about a decision they've already made. I don't think that's honest or productive. If you have a gut feeling that you should do something, but you don't know why exactly you feel that way, then you need to examine your feeling honestly and completely.
Once again, I don't know many who do.

In my church, most people (including me) do one of the following as a typical prayer.

1. Prayer of thanks (hey, thanks for the great weather today, thanks for my new baby, etc)

2. Prayer of need (hey, I've already done everything I can about my sister's narcotic addiction - obviously I'm not doing something right - show me the way to help)

Often, the way I'm shown is not the way I would have wished things to be.

As an example, I wanted to intervene immediately in a certain matter - and after praying, I got the impression that I should wait to see how things shake out - I felt I was told to be patient. And being patient worked.

Maybe you don't know enough people who authentically use prayer in their lives.

I never have prayed to "feel better after already doing something". I don't know many who do.

Hey, that's great for you. I was simply speaking from personal experience.


Maybe you don't know enough people who authentically use prayer in their lives.
Most of the people I know are religious, simply because most people in my country are religious and I don't go out of my way to avoid knowing religious people. Just about everybody I've ever hung out with has prayed at some point or another in their lives, and the majority of the people I've asked have told me that they pray (in one form or another) on at least a somewhat regular basis.

Now, I don't believe I'm in any position to say who is and is not "authentically" using prayer. I was simply speaking about people praying in general, whether or not they are "authentic" about it.

Now, I don't believe I'm in any position to say who is and is not "authentically" using prayer. I was simply speaking about people praying in general, whether or not they are "authentic" about it.

As you have already noted, there's a right and a wrong way to pray. Some churches don't bother telling you one from the other, which is a problem.

Other churches, on the other hand, do bother to tell you.

As you have already noted, there's a right and a wrong way to pray. Some churches don't bother telling you one from the other, which is a problem.

Other churches, on the other hand, do bother to tell you.
Well, but that's just the thing:

I don't think in terms of there being some "right way" or "wrong way" to pray. I think there are activities which are more pragmatic, or more helpful to an individual, or more helpful to society at large, but those are my opinions based on my values.

For some people I've spoken to, the point of prayer is ONLY to help one feel closer to God. Obviously I see that as a huge waste of time and an extreme excerise in self-fluffling, but so what? If that's what they see as the point of prayer, and if their prayers make them feel close to God, then they are praying in the "right way."

Other people may believe that prayer serves some other function(s). I've got no way of judging who is right and who is wrong on the subject, all I know is that there are certain kinds of prayer that are more productive when it comes to bringing about the kind of change that I like to see. But I'm a godless heathen. :D

I don't need a higher power to keep me from death - though admittedly, I've thought about killing myself so I could find out if there was an afterlife.

Listen to some music (good music - TooL, APC), eat something incredibly unhealthy, go out and get laid. You'll feel better.

Well, but that's just the thing:

I don't think in terms of there being some "right way" or "wrong way" to pray. I think there are activities which are more pragmatic, or more helpful to an individual, or more helpful to society at large, but those are my opinions based on my values.

As an example, praying for the following is "wrong".

"I pray that the infidel heathen non-believers smoke a turd in Hell"

or

"I pray that I win the lottery"

At least in my church.

As an example, praying for the following is "wrong".

"I pray that the infidel heathen non-believers smoke a turd in Hell"

or

"I pray that I win the lottery"

At least in my church.

Thats almost sig worthy. LMAO

As an example, praying for the following is "wrong".

"I pray that the infidel heathen non-believers smoke a turd in Hell"

or

"I pray that I win the lottery"

At least in my church.
I'm sure that's true for your church. But not everybody attends your church.

I've met people who believe it is wrong to ask for anything in prayer. Ever. To them, praying that your sick loved one get better is inappropriate. Praying that you have the strength to endure the loss of a child is inappropriate. Praying that you find the clarity of mind to deal with a difficult problem is wrong. They believe that prayer is about praising God and submitting to God's will, and that's it.

Now, I don't personally see much use in that. But that's what their faith teaches them, and that's how they believe prayer is supposed to work. I don't think I've got any right to tell them, "You're doing it all wrong!" I just tell them (if they ask) that I personally think they're wasting their time.

Well, it's very complicated and a lot of things are factors which shouldn't be. It's not that he's worthless, he does a very good job. It's that I specifically (and a few others, probably) would create a lot of problems if I started being a full participant in my church. Which is why I'm looking for a new one.

Curioser and curioser, What problems could those possibly be? and dare I hazard a guess that this moment of dispair has stemmed from those potential problems. And it's also interesting that you're not comfortable with the way your parents are pressuring you.

I encourage you to search within yourself and question every aspect of who and what you currently are and compare that to who and what you want to be. The answers are there and I feel that you are approaching a majour decision in your life. The question is which way do YOU want to turn?

Don't despair, take advantage of this opportunity to become the person you want to be.

In my church, most people (including me) do one of the following as a typical prayer.

1. Prayer of thanks (hey, thanks for the great weather today, thanks for my new baby, etc)

2. Prayer of need (hey, I've already done everything I can about my sister's narcotic addiction - obviously I'm not doing something right - show me the way to help)

Often, the way I'm shown is not the way I would have wished things to be.

As an example, I wanted to intervene immediately in a certain matter - and after praying, I got the impression that I should wait to see how things shake out - I felt I was told to be patient. And being patient worked.

Maybe you don't know enough people who authentically use prayer in their lives.
I was taught an Acronym for the types of prayer, ACTS.
A-Adoration, as in damn, God you are some hot shit. Good job with that whole creation thing!
C-Contrition, as in, sorry bout cursing out my teachers
T-Thanksgiving (thanks for the healthy baby, like you said)
S-Supplication, or need as you said

Despair isn't rational.

It is therefore not worth worrying about. If you cannot change it there's no point in dwelling on it. Only worry about those things you can affect a change upon.

I was taught an Acronym for the types of prayer, ACTS.
A-Adoration, as in damn, God you are some hot shit. Good job with that whole creation thing!
C-Contrition, as in, sorry bout cursing out my teachers
T-Thanksgiving (thanks for the healthy baby, like you said)
S-Supplication, or need as you said

We do the adoration thing, but we don't call it prayer - it's praise, and it's a very vocal thing.

Contrition - forgot about that one - but we don't think it's any good unless you apologize to the person you acted against.

I was taught an Acronym for the types of prayer, ACTS.
A-Adoration, as in damn, God you are some hot shit. Good job with that whole creation thing!
C-Contrition, as in, sorry bout cursing out my teachers
T-Thanksgiving (thanks for the healthy baby, like you said)
S-Supplication, or need as you said
I learned these as Thanks, Gimme, Oops, and Wow.

Thanks are saying cheers to God for an already-received blessing, Gimmes ask for some new blessing, Oops express regret and penitence for a sin or mistake of some kind, and Wow is general awe at how groovy a chap God is.

The way I see it, the only way any of these prayers can make less sense than they do without God is if one DOES believe in God. After all, if God has "a plan," or if God is all-knowing, then everything that is going to happen is already known to him. He's already decided what he will do, so "Gimmes" are pointless because he will just ignore them if they don't correspond to his plan; indeed, if he DID grant one that went against his original idea then he would be logically disproving his own all-knowingness. Thanks are likewise irrelevant, because he didn't do anything other than what he was planning on all along, and so he wasn't doing it for you anyway. Oops don't matter because he knew that you were going to mess up and already decided whether or not he was going to forgive you, and anyhow his all-knowingness already is aware of how sorry you are (or are not). Wow is the only one that might have merit, but since he already knows how impressed you are (by definition of omniscience) then why bother to pray it to him? He's aware of how cool he is, and, being all-powerful, doesn't need validation from one of his creations.

We do the adoration thing, but we don't call it prayer - it's praise, and it's a very vocal thing.

Contrition - forgot about that one - but we don't think it's any good unless you apologize to the person you acted against.

You can praise God aloud, but you can do it alone in your room too.

Yeah, if you sin against someone, you should make reparations to them, if you can. But admitting you did wrong and feeling badly about it is a good start, even if you only admit it to yourself and your god.

Anyway, prayer doesnt really help me when i'm depressed. Not being alone helps, tho

I learned these as Thanks, Gimme, Oops, and Wow.

Thanks are saying cheers to God for an already-received blessing, Gimmes ask for some new blessing, Oops express regret and penitence for a sin or mistake of some kind, and Wow is general awe at how groovy a chap God is.
LoL that's a clever way of remembering them.
The way I see it, the only way any of these prayers can make less sense than they do without God is if one DOES believe in God. After all, if God has "a plan," or if God is all-knowing, then everything that is going to happen is already known to him. He's already decided what he will do, so "Gimmes" are pointless because he will just ignore them if they don't correspond to his plan; indeed, if he DID grant one that went against his original idea then he would be logically disproving his own all-knowingness.
I'm fond of the expression "God answers all prayers. It is just that sometimes the answer is "no."

Perhaps God, in His (or Her?) all-knowing-ness has developed several possible courses of action, all of which would work out fine.

And maybe God will not give you the winning lottery ticket, but maybe God will grant you the grace and courage to do something good which you might not have been able to do on your own.


Thanks are likewise irrelevant, because he didn't do anything other than what he was planning on all along, and so he wasn't doing it for you anyway.
My parents always had to eat, and they'd be arrested if they didn't feed me occassionally. But I always thank them for dinner. They aren't really doing it for me most days. I mean, they don't make any more than they would if they were cooking for everyone BUT me. But I am still grateful. And just because God was planning on doing it that way all along doesnt mean She wasn't planning on doing it for you all along. Maybe not because of you, but possibly for you.


Oops don't matter because he knew that you were going to mess up and already decided whether or not he was going to forgive you, and anyhow his all-knowingness already is aware of how sorry you are (or are not).
Aren't there times when someone insults you, and you know by the way they look afterwards that they are sorry, but it still helps if they apologize?

Actually, I personally think confession and prayers of contrition are much more for those apologizing than for God. God doesn't need your apology. But I need to apologize, for my own peace of mind and soul.

Wow is the only one that might have merit, but since he already knows how impressed you are (by definition of omniscience) then why bother to pray it to him? He's aware of how cool he is, and, being all-powerful, doesn't need validation from one of his creations.
When you got good grades in school, you knew you got As and As were awesome, but wasn't it nice to be congratulated? I know I liked it. I didn't need the validation, but it sure was nice.

I sigh once (twice if I'm really depressed) then get on with life. Unfortunately I have never had imaginary friends to comfort me.

LoL that's a clever way of remembering them.

I'm fond of the expression "God answers all prayers. It is just that sometimes the answer is "no."

Perhaps God, in His (or Her?) all-knowing-ness has developed several possible courses of action, all of which would work out fine.

And maybe God will not give you the winning lottery ticket, but maybe God will grant you the grace and courage to do something good which you might not have been able to do on your own.

All of which are possible, of course, but none change the point I was making.

God is going to do what is best, regardless of what you ask for, so why ask for stuff? If it's stuff you should have, God will see to it that you have it. If it's not stuff you should have, God's not going to give it to you just because you asked.


My parents always had to eat, and they'd be arrested if they didn't feed me occassionally. But I always thank them for dinner.

Of course, one assumes your parents are not all-knowing and all-seeing, so they probably can't read your mind.

God, on the other hand, can. At least under this scheme of belief. So God already knows whether or not I'm thankful, probably better than I know it myself. God already knows the full extent of my gratitude in perfect detail, and has already heard my thanks from the deepest corners of my being. (In theory)


They aren't really doing it for me most days. I mean, they don't make any more than they would if they were cooking for everyone BUT me. But I am still grateful. And just because God was planning on doing it that way all along doesnt mean She wasn't planning on doing it for you all along. Maybe not because of you, but possibly for you.

There's certainly something to be said for going through the motions of courtesy with other people. However, that's because we need to tell each other things, seeing as how we don't all have the ability to know each others' minds and feelings.


Aren't there times when someone insults you, and you know by the way they look afterwards that they are sorry, but it still helps if they apologize?

Same as for the "thanks" issue: God already knows, in greater detail than I could ever express, how sorry I am or am not. With another person, having them say "sorry" outloud is important because I don't know how they feel. Their willingness to say they are sorry out loud is evidence of their sincerity, but I wouldn't need that evidence if I could read their mind.


Actually, I personally think confession and prayers of contrition are much more for those apologizing than for God. God doesn't need your apology. But I need to apologize, for my own peace of mind and soul.

Now THAT I agree with.


When you got good grades in school, you knew you got As and As were awesome, but wasn't it nice to be congratulated? I know I liked it. I didn't need the validation, but it sure was nice.
I prefered being given material rewards, actually. ;) I guess if I was God I would be all about the animal sacrifices and whatnot.

All of which are possible, of course, but none change the point I was making.

God is going to do what is best, regardless of what you ask for, so why ask for stuff? If it's stuff you should have, God will see to it that you have it. If it's not stuff you should have, God's not going to give it to you just because you asked.


Of course, one assumes your parents are not all-knowing and all-seeing, so they probably can't read your mind.

God, on the other hand, can. At least under this scheme of belief. So God already knows whether or not I'm thankful, probably better than I know it myself. God already knows the full extent of my gratitude in perfect detail, and has already heard my thanks from the deepest corners of my being.


There's certainly something to be said for going through the motions of courtesy with other people. However, that's because we need to tell each other things, seeing as how we don't all have the ability to know each others' minds and feelings.


Same as for the "thanks" issue: God already knows, in greater detail than I could ever express, how sorry I am or am not. With another person, having them say "sorry" outloud is important because I don't know how they feel. Their willingness to say they are sorry out loud is evidence of their sincerity, but I wouldn't need that evidence if I could read their mind.


Now THAT I agree with.


I prefered being given material rewards, actually. ;) I guess if I was God I would be all about the animal sacrifices and whatnot.

IMO, prayer is less for God's benefit and more for our own.

That always depends with whom you're speaking, what you're speaking on, who the audience is, and what kind of witness it is.True; you have the option of talking to a therapist, or also venting to strangers on an internet forum. Both would work, in this case.
With that said, the answers you hear might not be what you want to hear.

Well, I'm hardly Darwinian.True, but from a religious perspective, doesn't God do everything for a reason?

I was taught an Acronym for the types of prayer, ACTS.
A-Adoration, as in damn, God you are some hot shit. Good job with that whole creation thing!
C-Contrition, as in, sorry bout cursing out my teachers
T-Thanksgiving (thanks for the healthy baby, like you said)
S-Supplication, or need as you said

Hehehe

Curioser and curioser, What problems could those possibly be? and dare I hazard a guess that this moment of dispair has stemmed from those potential problems. And it's also interesting that you're not comfortable with the way your parents are pressuring you.

It's very complicated. The church is not behaving as a church ought to behave. The vast majority resents my family (they feel we run the church) and look for every opportunity to find fault.

That is why I'm looking for another church and am loathe to speak to anyone about my problems there. Plus there is always the issue of "A Smith (not my real name) has a problem like that!" which of course won't help. People will either be horrified or relish it.

This despair did not stem from that, but others have.

And I am not so much uncomfortable with my parents pressuring me (they're ony doing their job) as I am with the results of obeying that pressure.

True; you have the option of talking to a therapist, or also venting to strangers on an internet forum. Both would work, in this case.
With that said, the answers you hear might not be what you want to hear.

True.

True, but from a religious perspective, doesn't God do everything for a reason?

Yes, but God uses sin for a reason. That doesn't mean the sin is good.

Yes, but God uses sin for a reason. That doesn't mean the sin is good.

if God is good and God created sin........then wouldn't sin have to be good?

if God is good and God created sin........then wouldn't sin have to be good?

God created the Law and sin is the absence of obedience to the Law.

I have the comfort of a holy spirit too...Jack Daniels praise be upon him.


PWN!!!

U my friend, win this round. LOL!

True.Of course, talking about things doesn't help everyone, but it does for me.

Yes, but God uses sin for a reason. That doesn't mean the sin is good.True, but would God create a sin that's impossible to avoid?

Of course, talking about things doesn't help everyone, but it does for me.

Thank you for the invitation, but I'm not going to discuss my problems in front of a community of people who I barely know.

True, but would God create a sin that's impossible to avoid?

God doesn't create sins. But, your point is correct: God will not let you be tempted more than you can bear. But having the ability to do something is something different from doing that thing.

Well what do you think? ;) ;) ;)

YEAH BABY OHHH YEAH

Edit:

....

...

was I a little late? Is this thread a serious one now?

Thank you for the invitation, but I'm not going to discuss my problems in front of a community of people who I barely know.Fair enough, some people want to know the people they're talking to more.

God doesn't create sins. But, your point is correct: God will not let you be tempted more than you can bear. But having the ability to do something is something different from doing that thing.If the temptation, or whatever it is, is causing you despair, would God want that?

If the temptation, or whatever it is, is causing you despair, would God want that?

No, despair is a sin, but that doesn't change that people, including me, do despair.

No, despair is a sin, but that doesn't change that people, including me, do despair.And likewise, simply because other things are sinful, that doesn't change that people sin in other ways, too, and God forgives them, too, right?

And likewise, simply because other things are sinful, that doesn't change that people sin in other ways, too, and God forgives them, too, right?

If you repent, you will be forgiven.

If you repent, you will be forgiven.

So what are you complaining about?

So what are you complaining about?

Who's complaining? Read the whole conversation, don't just butt in.

God created the Law and sin is the absence of obedience to the Law.

God created a choice.

Who's complaining? Read the whole conversation, don't just butt in.

I mean despairing.

God created a choice.

Yes, you have free agency, a free choice.

I mean despairing.

Why does anyone sin? I know, but I don't know. I don't know why I do the things I do. I have an intellectual answer, but that doesn't change that when I do something I oughtn't that I have no answer.

Yes, you have free agency, a free choice.

and God created you?


btw....I thought you were Calvinist?!

Why does anyone sin? I know, but I don't know. I don't know why I do the things I do. I have an intellectual answer, but that doesn't change that when I do something I oughtn't that I have no answer.

Well, who cares. Ignore it, if it doesn't affect you you will be assured that they will get their comupance(sp?)

If you repent, you will be forgiven.Perhaps you can take comfort in the knowledge that if you do give in to these desires, you will be forgiven?

i frequently feel like i'm at my wits end. i've got my friends to make me happy, i don't need a ghostie. if it's them i'm unhappy about whether through paranoia or something they actually did (which is rare) then i do something to distract myself like come here to NS (i do that anyway, but you know, sometimes it's theraputic), or read a book, or watch tv, or get drunk, or clean the flat, or do the washing up, or make some nice food, or whatever.

i've often used the argument against religion that it's just a crutch for the weak, but i really don't see why anyone would need that crutch, there's so many better ones (besides i used to be depressed when i was religious too).

and God created you?


btw....I thought you were Calvinist?!

Well, God created Adam and Eve and I am the offspring of them.

Yes, I am a Calvinist (in the broad sense, more of a half-Calvinist in the strict sense).

Well, who cares. Ignore it, if it doesn't affect you you will be assured that they will get their comupance(sp?)

Oh, are you talking about my dealings with people in my church?

I wasn't thinking of that, sorry.

I try to ignore them, but that's easy to say and hard to do, just like a lot of things (probably most things) in life.

Well, God created Adam and Eve and I am the offspring of them.

Yes, I am a Calvinist (in the broad sense, more of a half-Calvinist in the strict sense).

what exactly is a half Calvinist?

Perhaps you can take comfort in the knowledge that if you do give in to these desires, you will be forgiven?

Well, that doesn't change that I have guilt because of them. Does God clear away that guilt? Yes He does - that's why despair is a sin.

Have you ever just thrown your hands up to the sky and screamed "Smite me now, please!"

Or thrown yourself prostrate on the ground with just utter feelings of disgust and hopelessness?

I had one of those times today and it was horrible.

Wow, me too. Strange coincidence.

No, despair is a sin, but that doesn't change that people, including me, do despair.

despair is a sin now? for fuck sake, is there any kind of thought pattern that is isn't a sin to your god except for blind obedience?

what exactly is a half Calvinist?

Only half of him is predestined?

what exactly is a half Calvinist?

I am almost entirely certain that's the setup for a joke, but I don't know it.

despair is a sin now? for fuck sake, is there any kind of thought pattern that is isn't a sin to your god except for blind obedience?

everything is a sin........almost.

despair is a sin now? for fuck sake, is there any kind of thought pattern that is isn't a sin to your god except for blind obedience?

I'ma guess....No?

despair is a sin now? for fuck sake, is there any kind of thought pattern that is isn't a sin to your god except for blind obedience?

I think it's meant to imply a lack of faith and trust....which I'm pretty sure isn't a sin, but hey, whatever. :rolleyes:

I am almost entirely certain that's the setup for a joke, but I don't know it.

that's okay as I was typing it a song popped into my head and it won't leave

*sings*

"Eric the half a bee"

everything is a sin........almost.

Did you raise your eyebrow at the end of typing that sentece? You're lying if you say no.

Did you raise your eyebrow at the end of typing that sentece? You're lying if you say no.

yes. ;)

Well, that doesn't change that I have guilt because of them. Does God clear away that guilt? Yes He does - that's why despair is a sin.The purpose of guilt is to change future actions. If there's no way of changing future actions, then the guilt is pointless.

what exactly is a half Calvinist?

Calvinist in the broad sense (what most people mean when they say Calvinist) is synonymous with Reformed. Calvinists in this sense of the word agree with Calvin's definition of predestination and believe in Covenant theology. In this sense of the word, I am a Calvinist.

A Calvinist in the strict sense of the word is a Reformed Christian who believes in the consubstantiation and that someone is not a Christian without assurance of salvation. There are some other very minor things, too. I agree with consubstantiation, but I disagree with the requirement of assurance for salvation. So, I'm sort of a half-Calvinist if we're using the strict sense of the word.

everything is a sin........almost.

it sounds like a very depressing religion to me :(

real life is depressing enough imho.

Wow, me too. Strange coincidence.

Really? I'm sorry. I hope it's gotten better.

Hmm... I kind of expected that. It turned into another "god is good. He created us an he created the circumstances that make us despair/sin/desire/breathe/whatever. But he graciously may or may not punish us if we do despair/sin/desire/breathe/whatever" kind of thread.
Pity, it started out promising.

The purpose of guilt is to change future actions. If there's no way of changing future actions, then the guilt is pointless.

Yes. The Holy Spirit uses guilt to convict us.

Calvinist in the broad sense (what most people mean when they say Calvinist) is synonymous with Reformed. Calvinists in this sense of the word agree with Calvin's definition of predestination and believe in Covenant theology. In this sense of the word, I am a Calvinist.

A Calvinist in the strict sense of the word is a Reformed Christian who believes in the consubstantiation and that someone is not a Christian without assurance of salvation. There are some other very minor things, too. I agree with consubstantiation, but I disagree with the requirement of assurance for salvation. So, I'm sort of a half-Calvinist if we're using the strict sense of the word.
how can you believe in free will and predestination?
it sounds like a very depressing religion to me :(

real life is depressing enough imho.
why would I be depressed?

how can you believe in free will and predestination?

I didn't say free will, I said free agency. Free agency is a free choice. Free will does not exist. Your will, your desires are bound to sin.

I didn't say free will, I said free agency. Free agency is a free choice. Free will does not exist. Your will, your desires are bound to sin.

how can you believe in "free agency" and also predestination?

how can you believe in "free agency" and also predestination?

No one's forcing you to do anything. God in different situations and through different means makes it so that you will follow the action that He wants you to do by your own choice.

No one's forcing you to do anything. God in different situations and through different means makes it so that you will follow the action that He wants you to do by your own choice.

you know that doesn't make any sense

how can you believe in free will and predestination?

why would I be depressed?

well correct me if i'm wrong, but depsite both of you being christian you don't have quite the same religion as edwardis. if i believed what edwardis believed (that practically everything i did and thought was a something that my god disapproved of, my god being the guy that's going to decide where i'm going to spend the rest of eternity) i would be constantly depressed and have an even worse guilt complex than i do already

well correct me if i'm wrong, but depsite both of you being christian you don't have quite the same religion as edwardis. if i believed what edwardis believed (that practically everything i did and thought was a something that my god disapproved of, my god being the guy that's going to decide where i'm going to spend the rest of eternity) i would be constantly depressed and have an even worse guilt complex than i do already

oh. I just realize that as a human I am flawed, nothing I can do to perfect myself.

I never understand why people think that is depressing.

Yes. The Holy Spirit uses guilt to convict us.But if there's no way to escape the guilt, then aren't you perpetually convicted?

you know that doesn't make any sense

I think it makes perfect sense.

If someone puts a gun to your head and tells you to give him your money, you still choose to give him the money. You think that it is in your best interest to give him the money so you choose to do so. The only way he would force you to give him the money is if he possessed you so that you weren't in control of yourself.

But if there's no way to escape the guilt, then aren't you perpetually convicted?

No, because God in His grace and mercy relieves my guilt.

you know that doesn't make any sense

Smunk-chan, shh. He doesn't listen when people point out that things he says doesn't make any sense. Been that way since the first post I've seen from him.

No, because God in His grace and mercy relieves my guilt.How does He do this?

I think it makes perfect sense.

If someone puts a gun to your head and tells you to give him your money, you still choose to give him the money. You think that it is in your best interest to give him the money so you choose to do so. The only way he would force you to give him the money is if he possessed you so that you weren't in control of yourself.

So, in essence, you believe that your god is blackmailing you? But he then graciously forgives you for being blackmailed if you "believe" in him... or maybe he won't?
You're right, yo udo have reason to despair.

How does He do this?

The Holy Spirit comforts me.

So, in essence, you believe that your god is blackmailing you? But he then graciously forgives you for being blackmailed if you "believe" in him... or maybe he won't?
You're right, yo udo have reason to despair.

Have you seen God pointing a gun at you lately? No.

It's just an illustration to show that just because it appears that you are being forced or you feel like you are being forced, you aren't necessarily.

And remember, God is good: He cannot sin.

Have you seen God pointing a gun at you lately? No.

It's just an illustration to show that just because it appears that you are being forced or you feel like you are being forced, you aren't necessarily.

And remember, God is good: He cannot sin.

So the fact that it's not a gun, bu eternal damnation and hell makes all the difference, doesn't it?

So the fact that it's not a gun, bu eternal damnation and hell makes all the difference, doesn't it?

Well, that's not the subject I was thinking about, but many people still choose eternal fire over eternal life.

Have you seen God pointing a gun at you lately? No.

It's just an illustration to show that just because it appears that you are being forced or you feel like you are being forced, you aren't necessarily.

And remember, God is good: He cannot sin.

okay, now your twisted view of God is making more sense to me........

God according to Edwardis

is good
controls everything
blackmails you into behaving
does not control your misbehavior
convicts you
relieves your guilt even though you have just been convicted


that about it?

Well, that's not the subject I was thinking about, but many people still choose eternal fire over eternal life.

according to you they can't choose, God will make them choose what He wants them to.

Oh, no they choose, because their wills are bound to sin. They may not want hell, but they'll take it over God. And God not willing for all to perish saves some by changing their hearts so that they will want Him and will choose to serve Him.

The question is not "Why doesn't God save everybody?"
It's "Why does God save anybody?"

Well, that's not the subject I was thinking about, but many people still choose eternal fire over eternal life.

You were illustrating the nature of god portraying him as someone who holds a metaphorical gun to our heads to make us obey to his whims. And in case you are not capable of obeying due to the way he created you, you either get shot (metaphorically), or are forced to grovel gratefully if he doesn't pull the trigger

I don't believe in neither god nor sin, so the example doesn't apply to me. But if you are not a complete masochist who enjoys being abused, you might consider therapy to get your view of the world to be a little less self-destructive.

Oh, no they choose, because their wills are bound to sin. They may not want hell, but they'll take it over God. And God not willing for all to perish saves some by changing their hearts so that they will want Him and will choose to serve Him.

The question is not "Why doesn't God save everybody?"
It's "Why does God save anybody?"

Either God is in control and we are all predestined and He is an ass, or we choose and are not predestined and we are the asses.

you choose.

This has gotten very off topic, and I'm not helping it at all.

If you want to continue this, start another thread. Otherwise, I think we should try to get back to the subject of atheists/agnostics and how they deal with despair.

Either God is in control and we are all predestined and He is an ass, or we choose and are not predestined and we are the asses.

you choose.

Oh, but he can't choose, can he? ;)

oh. I just realize that as a human I am flawed, nothing I can do to perfect myself.

I never understand why people think that is depressing.

and i'm quite happy thinking that i'm human therefore i will behave like a human. being nice makes me happy, being angry makes me feel bad, being vengeful leaves me feeling hollow etc. and i do that cuz that's what i feel not cuz that's what the bible or any other text tells me to feel like that.

just different ways of dealing with things really.

This has gotten very off topic, and I'm not helping it at all.

If you want to continue this, start another thread. Otherwise, I think we should try to get back to the subject of atheists/agnostics and how they deal with despair.

It's not that far off topic... we discussing how with a world view like yours, religion or not, you will despair sooner or later. That's set in the program.

Oh, and how you seem to make other Chrisitans despair.

And so my question is, how do you atheists and agnostics get through times like that? Because it is only by God's grace and the comfort of the Holy Spirit that I make it through times like that.
Substance abuse and arguing about petty issues with other people with no legislative power on NSG. Companionship helps, too.

Substance abuse and arguing about petty issues with other people with no legislative power on NSG. Companionship helps, too.

Having a really good argument does help, that's true.
Doesn't matter if you win it or not, but it draws you out of lethargy. :)

Oh, and how you seem to make other Chrisitans despair.

I make other Christians despair? How might that be, may I ask?

And before you say something about Reformed theology, let me just tell you that that theological tradition has kept me from despair more than the alternative. And the same with many people I know.

But that's off topic, so it would be best to answer that in another thread.

I sigh once (twice if I'm really depressed) then get on with life. Unfortunately I have never had imaginary friends to comfort me.

Sometimes I think all of my friends have been imaginary...

Sometimes I think all of my friends have been imaginary...

Ditto, I've never got out of the impression that the feelings of friendship only extend one way...

I make other Christians despair? How might that be, may I ask?

And before you say something about Reformed theology, let me just tell you that that theological tradition has kept me from despair more than the alternative. And the same with many people I know.

But that's off topic, so it would be best to answer that in another thread.

Ask them.
I'm not talking theology, I'm talking self-destructive understanding of the demands of religion.

Oh, no they choose, because their wills are bound to sin. They may not want hell, but they'll take it over God. And God not willing for all to perish saves some by changing their hearts so that they will want Him and will choose to serve Him. Why would somebody want a God that's so sadistic? If a person held a gun to your head, would you want to be around that type of person?

Why would somebody want a God that's so sadistic? If a person held a gun to your head, would you want to be around that type of person?

Only image I get is the henchmen fawning around the thug boss...

Not hard to see why that doesn't appeal to many.

Ditto, I've never got out of the impression that the feelings of friendship only extend one way...

yeh, i get that too. it's what i was meaning with the paranoia bit of my original post in this thread. i know my friends love me despite all my faults cuz they say so unbidden enough times for me to believe it, but sometimes my paranoia takes over and i start thinking they hate me and don't want to see me and are only humouring me and all that crap.

basically i know i love my friends more than they love me but that's just cuz i'm needy and insecure which i'm working on. sometimes i just have to remind myself that they need me too even if i don't know for what.

basically i know i love my friends more than they love me but that's just cuz i'm needy and insecure which i'm working on. sometimes i just have to remind myself that they need me too even if i don't know for what.Perhaps they need you for the same things you need them for?

yeh, i get that too. it's what i was meaning with the paranoia bit of my original post in this thread. i know my friends love me despite all my faults cuz they say so unbidden enough times for me to believe it, but sometimes my paranoia takes over and i start thinking they hate me and don't want to see me and are only humouring me and all that crap.

basically i know i love my friends more than they love me but that's just cuz i'm needy and insecure which i'm working on. sometimes i just have to remind myself that they need me too even if i don't know for what.

Yeh my feelings are pretty similar, with similar causes. It sometimes seems that the paranoia thoughts are purely from the subconscious and anything more rational is a conscious response, i.e. I can't stop the subconscious thought happening, just react to them. I have a few other reasons I feel like this tho but....hmm....not sure I'd like to say.

maybe, except they all uber hawt and have boyfriends or loads of suiters if they don't. hot girls don't even need to try to not be lonely (although i understand that can be depressing too - no-one wants to be your friend they just want in your pants). i hate being a boy.

maybe, except they all uber hawt and have boyfriends or loads of suiters if they don't. hot girls don't even need to try to not be lonely (although i understand that can be depressing too - no-one wants to be your friend they just want in your pants). i hate being a boy.Would it help if I told you I wanted in your pants?

Yeh my feelings are pretty similar, with similar causes. It sometimes seems that the paranoia thoughts are purely from the subconscious and anything more rational is a conscious response, i.e. I can't stop the subconscious thought happening, just react to them. I have a few other reasons I feel like this tho but....hmm....not sure I'd like to say.

i understand that. i wouldn't go into my deeper self-analysis either, at least not while i'm still sobre.

Would it help if I told you I wanted in your pants?

;) can't hurt! (i'm a shameless attention seeker)

i understand that. i wouldn't go into my deeper self-analysis either, at least not while i'm still sobre.

Or in a letter to a good friend.

Or in a letter to a good friend.

nah, my good friends already know my deeper self-analysis/blame my childhood reasons from me going out and getting wasted when i'm depressed. letters are fine, but i find the writing is more theraputic than actually handing them over for someone else to read and understand, cuz once it's all written out it becomes ridiculous in a way.

;) can't hurt! (i'm a shameless attention seeker)Good, me too! :fluffle:

nah, my good friends already know my deeper self-analysis/blame my childhood reasons from me going out and getting wasted when i'm depressed. letters are fine, but i find the writing is more theraputic than actually handing them over for someone else to read and understand, cuz once it's all written out it becomes ridiculous in a way.Because reading it puts it into perspective, and that it's smaller than you think it is?

Because reading it puts it into perspective, and that it's smaller than you think it is?

Yup, normally.

My letters have always been saying something they didn't know, or at least something I didn't think they knew. It was partly due to the fact I was particularly closed about my feelings/emotions when I got to know them, it all built up until I felt I had to tell them a lot of things, thus the letter. Its not something I'd do regularly, and hopefully I will be more open with new friends.

Good, me too! :fluffle:
:fluffle:

Because reading it puts it into perspective, and that it's smaller than you think it is?

plus it also reveals it as slightly pathetic. my childhood was characterised for me by losing friends left, right and centre for reasons i couldn't understand. everyone's was, i just couldn't deal with it, leading to the neurosese(sp) i have now which i am fighting against. i could blame those childhood friends that were too fickle to remain friends, i could even blame the psychological effect their leaving had on me, but really it all comes down to me in the here and now and what i'm going to do next, somewhere in me i have the courage to go out and not be lonely or paranoid, it's just a case of finding it. basically i refuse to accept i'm a basket-case (despite being told i should see a therapist i should add), i don't think i'd suit wicker.

Yup, normally.

My letters have always been saying something they didn't know, or at least something I didn't think they knew. It was partly due to the fact I was particularly closed about my feelings/emotions when I got to know them, it all built up until I felt I had to tell them a lot of things, thus the letter. Its not something I'd do regularly, and hopefully I will be more open with new friends.Let's hope so. :) Do you think you're more open now than you used to be?

plus it also reveals it as slightly pathetic. my childhood was characterised for me by losing friends left, right and centre for reasons i couldn't understand. everyone's was, i just couldn't deal with it, leading to the neurosese(sp) i have now which i am fighting against. i could blame those childhood friends that were too fickle to remain friends, i could even blame the psychological effect their leaving had on me, but really it all comes down to me in the here and now and what i'm going to do next, somewhere in me i have the courage to go out and not be lonely or paranoid, it's just a case of finding it. basically i refuse to accept i'm a basket-case (despite being told i should see a therapist i should add), i don't think i'd suit wicker.I think seeing a therapist would help, but then again I think therapy would help pretty much everybody.
I know what you mean about the friends leaving thing...I wonder if that's just how kids are.

I think seeing a therapist would help, but then again I think therapy would help pretty much everybody.
I know what you mean about the friends leaving thing...I wonder if that's just how kids are.

i think it might be. one of my friends has this fear that she is alway ignored. she has got this down to a similar level to what i would attribute my own insecurities too. but the other thing is, our bestest friend (we are three best friends with me as a slightly more minor role) is very loud and domineering so it's no wonder she gets less attention. i have a feeling this may contribute to her insecurities but i don't want to say anything for fear of mucking up what we have together (which is amazing btw and i couldn't ask for better friends up here).

i think it might be. one of my friends has this fear that she is alway ignored. she has got this down to a similar level to what i would attribute my own insecurities too. but the other thing is, our bestest friend (we are three best friends with me as a slightly more minor role) is very loud and domineering so it's no wonder she gets less attention. i have a feeling this may contribute to her insecurities but i don't want to say anything for fear of mucking up what we have together (which is amazing btw and i couldn't ask for better friends up here).Do you guys always hang out together? Perhaps you and the friend who thinks she's ignored could go out together, just the two of you every once in a while?

Let's hope so. :) Do you think you're more open now than you used to be?

Yes, a lot more than previously, I wouldn't have told you guys anything about this previously, just remained silent. Infact, I said nothing to my friends for years, though I suppose they might have noticed, I should hope that seeing someone sitting alone on a bench in a school staring at nothing in particular would arose some sort of suspicion of problems, but no-one ever really asked about it. All-boys schools are not the best for open discussions about feelings.

Half a bottle of Rum and some choice words for the Gods having fun at my expense usually gets it done.

Have you ever just thrown your hands up to the sky and screamed "Smite me now, please!"

Or thrown yourself prostrate on the ground with just utter feelings of disgust and hopelessness?

I had one of those times today and it was horrible.

And so my question is, how do you atheists and agnostics get through times like that? Because it is only by God's grace and the comfort of the Holy Spirit that I make it through times like that.
I do not get it anymore, but I used to when I was a teenager (depression). Atheists and agnostics do it the same way you do. They pick up their shit and get on with it. Some people give the credit to jesus, others to a partner or friend, some to an activity or sport, and others to themselves. In the end however, it all comes from within.

Do you guys always hang out together? Perhaps you and the friend who thinks she's ignored could go out together, just the two of you every once in a while?

yeh, it is something that probably could/should happen. she does have a boyfriend who she will probably marry but i have seen our other best friend without her. mostly because she (the other best friedn) has admirers all over and one of them has become almost part of the furnature (their furnature not mine, i haven't got used to him yet. i haven't had male friesnd since shool and it feels weird knowing him) and therefore always has social engagements to invite people to.

as a group of friends we are a group of three that has mutually included a 4th at times (my current flatmate). now there is a fifth who is guy, who i believe is a thoroughly decent guy, funny, and fairly charming and enjoyable, but he isn't my friend and therefore i have difficulty with him.

Yes, a lot more than previously, I wouldn't have told you guys anything about this previously, just remained silent. Infact, I said nothing to my friends for years, though I suppose they might have noticed, I should hope that seeing someone sitting alone on a bench in a school staring at nothing in particular would arose some sort of suspicion of problems, but no-one ever really asked about it. All-boys schools are not the best for open discussions about feelings.

i know that, i spet an enitire day sat under a table and no-one said a thing. at the time there was nowhere else to go, apart from class, but i didn't want to go so i stayed where i was.

I usually try to make up the most creative forms of suicide with my friends, and then try and perform them on small inanimate objects after school. It relieves a lot of stress.

yeh, it is something that probably could/should happen. she does have a boyfriend who she will probably marry but i have seen our other best friend without her. mostly because she (the other best friedn) has admirers all over and one of them has become almost part of the furnature (their furnature not mine, i haven't got used to him yet. i haven't had male friesnd since shool and it feels weird knowing him) and therefore always has social engagements to invite people to.

as a group of friends we are a group of three that has mutually included a 4th at times (my current flatmate). now there is a fifth who is guy, who i believe is a thoroughly decent guy, funny, and fairly charming and enjoyable, but he isn't my friend and therefore i have difficulty with him.I assume your current flatmate is also female? Either way, you and the friend who feels she is ignored all the time should hang out together. I would also say that you should try to make a point to find a male friend. The reason I say this is that if you're uncomfortable around men, you won't be able to make friends with them, and in that case you would be excluding half of the population from the potential pool of friends. This would only get worse as you get older and used to being uncomfortable around men.
That's my amateur advice anyway, ignore it if you wish.

I come here to answer these kinds of threads.

I assume your current flatmate is also female? Either way, you and the friend who feels she is ignored all the time should hang out together. I would also say that you should try to make a point to find a male friend. The reason I say this is that if you're uncomfortable around men, you won't be able to make friends with them, and in that case you would be excluding half of the population from the potential pool of friends. This would only get worse as you get older and used to being uncomfortable around men.
That's my amateur advice anyway, ignore it if you wish.

yeh, i just tend to find the majority of guys really boring, at least to start with, so i just lose interest in getting to know them pretty quickly. my two best friends from school are guys (not suprising really as i went to an all-boys school) but i hardly get to see them anymore and they're quite effeminate anyway. there are guys who i get on with, generally those that transcend, or don't conform to at all, the gender stereotype, but they seem to be very thin on the ground. you're right though, i do need more male friends if only to re-affirm my masculinity. it is becoming a pattern for me to assume that i won't get on with a guy when i meet them, whereas i'm much more likely to actively make friends with pretty much any girl i meet in a social setting.

yeh, i just tend to find the majority of guys really boring, at least to start with, so i just lose interest in getting to know them pretty quickly. my two best friends from school are guys (not suprising really as i went to an all-boys school) but i hardly get to see them anymore and they're quite effeminate anyway. there are guys who i get on with, generally those that transcend, or don't conform to at all, the gender stereotype, but they seem to be very thin on the ground. you're right though, i do need more male friends if only to re-affirm my masculinity. it is becoming a pattern for me to assume that i won't get on with a guy when i meet them, whereas i'm much more likely to actively make friends with pretty much any girl i meet in a social setting.I'm not entirely sure that I believe in such things as 'masculinity', but, yes, I'd suggest making more male friends for the reason that I bolded in your post.

I try to focus on something in my life that I can cling to, some hope for the future. Sometimes it's family or friends, sometimes it's a show, sometimes it's as stupid as a movie I haven't seen yet, or an email I never replied to. For instance, this weekend, I was really upset, since I just wrapped my last school musical, and I never told this one guy in the cast how amazing he is and how much I care about him. I didn't even get his email, though I'm thinking of asking my friend for it (does that come off as creepy?). I don't know when or where or how often I will see him again. I woke up feeling so empty inside and not wanting to do anything, because my heart was absolutely bursting with a sort of confused and painful sadness. But I remembered that I had auditions for the Mikado this afternoon, and I didn't want to break that committment, and I promised everyone Winter Solstice cookies, etc, etc, and that was enough for me.

I try to focus on something in my life that I can cling to, some hope for the future. Sometimes it's family or friends, sometimes it's a show, sometimes it's as stupid as a movie I haven't seen yet, or an email I never replied to. For instance, this weekend, I was really upset, since I just wrapped my last school musical, and I never told this one guy in the cast how amazing he is and how much I care about him. I didn't even get his email, though I'm thinking of asking my friend for it (does that come off as creepy?). I don't know when or where or how often I will see him again. I woke up feeling so empty inside and not wanting to do anything, because my heart was absolutely bursting with a sort of confused and painful sadness. But I remembered that I had auditions for the Mikado this afternoon, and I didn't want to break that committment, and I promised everyone Winter Solstice cookies, etc, etc, and that was enough for me.

Post-show depression. I get that too, especially after a really good run! Always worse around the holidays, too. Yay G&S!!