NationStates Jolt Archive

China's Yangtze river was once home to a population of white dolphins, but now a new survey of the river shows that they're extinct. The Chinese are also guilty of a genocide against the handicapped. The Yangtze finless porpoise's numbers have dropped to below 400. http://cbs4boston.com/watercooler/watercooler_story_347150747.html


Seriously though, while I recognize that China is trying to develop it's economy, they're fucking up their environment. In the long run their irresponsible stewardship of their rivers will come back to bite us all in the ass. What can the world do to pressure China into better environmental policies?

Just another reason to boycott China. (the other main one being, their support of the Sudanese government)

Give them a puppy!

No wait...They're killing those too.

We could certainly annihilate it with nukes. I'm not sure if we should do that now or at some juncture in the future, but it's best to not wait for it to grow stronger.

Seriously though, while I recognize that China is trying to develop it's economy, they're fucking up their environment. In the long run their irresponsible stewardship of their rivers will come back to bite us all in the ass. What can the world do to pressure China into better environmental policies?
Lead by example.

surely there must be some left in Zoo's?

And just another thing on the list of bad things China does really:(

We could certainly annihilate it with nukes. I'm not sure if we should do that now or at some juncture in the future, but it's best to not wait for it to grow stronger.
Yes, let's n00k them. That's the answer.

Yes, let's n00k them. That's the answer.

Exercising peace is not an option at this point. They threaten to devastate the global balance and knock the US of its super-power perch. We must strike swiftly and surely.

Yes, let's n00k them. That's the answer.
It's for a good cause! Environmental protection. *nods*

Exercising peace is not an option at this point. They threaten to devastate the global balance and knock the US of its super-power perch. We must strike swiftly and surely.

slides away with E.U flag *is greased*

Them and India are also killing off all the Tigers. Well .. maybe not directly .. but poachers do it and sell the stuff to them. Damn poachers! :mad:

/off topic I've watched some of the 'Engineering An Empire' (http://www.history.com/marquee.do?content_type=Marquee_Generic&content_type_id=51242&display_order=2&marquee_id=51188) series about China. They had a massive fleet of ships under one of their emperors and went out to India and Africa etc not neccessarily exploring but I guess making connections and letting the world know they were the shit. Then that emporer died and the guy that took over made all them come back and burnt the entire fleet and documents.. and no one knows why he did. I thought it was interesting.

/off topic I've watched some of the 'Engineering An Empire' series about China. They had a massive fleet of ships under one of their emperors and went out to India and Africa etc not neccessarily exploring but I guess making connections and letting the world know they were the shit. Then that emporer died and the guy that took over made all them come back and burnt the entire fleet and documents.. and no one knows why he did. I thought it was interesting.

The emperor was Zhu Di, and the commander of that fleet(called the treasure fleet, because it purpose was to extract tribute) was Zheng He(A.K.A. Hajj Mahmud). Its speculated that the treasure fleet reached the Americas before Columbus. IIRC they found a sunken treasure ship in Sacramento Bay in California.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yongle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_ship

Hey, the rest of the developed world can´t talk. USA and Europe didn´t have any environmental controls when we were developing our industrialized economies which screwed up the environment quite a abit. Now that we have post-industrialized economies how can we criticize China for industrializing in the same fashion that we did?

Lead by example.

The US has loads of protected wilderness areas. Our rivers are no longer flammable, and the sturgeon have returned to the Delaware river in small numbers.

The emperor was Zhu Di, and the commander of that fleet(called the treasure fleet, because it purpose was to extract tribute) was Zheng He(A.K.A. Hajj Mahmud). Its speculated that the treasure fleet reached the Americas before Columbus. IIRC they found a sunken treasure ship in Sacramento Bay in California.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yongle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_ship

Sweet! Thanks for the info. I find their history fascinating.

I tried to reply to you sooner, but jolt went nutty on me for a bit.

Exercising peace is not an option at this point. They threaten to devastate the global balance and knock the US of its super-power perch. We must strike swiftly and surely.
China can't be destroyed without horrendous consequences. Besides, it's not a very civilized thing to do, right? ;)

The best route for the United States and the European Union to take whenever China (and Russia) decides flex its muscles is to side with India and Japan.

And don’t worry about the fate of the United States. Oceania will prevail!
It's for a good cause! Environmental protection. *nods*
Not only that, if we just get over the fuss and just n00k the whole planet, nature can begin the millennia long process of healing itself.

Let's face it folks, we're living during the cycle of life and death where death is supreme. We have the tools to hasten the cycle of life and death. Let's get back to living again. Let’s use these tools to renew the planet and species. :D
The US has loads of protected wilderness areas. Our rivers are no longer flammable, and the sturgeon have returned to the Delaware river in small numbers.
It's a start, but we have a long way to go and a lot of bad habits to kick.

Just another reason to boycott China. (the other main one being, their support of the Sudanese government)

And their lack of Human Rights in general...

Just another reason to boycott China. (the other main one being, their support of the Sudanese government)

Sure thing, but then you suddenly realise you need to pay twice the price for alot of your daily commedities you take for granted...

And please I doubt China is the only nation that practised the art of supporting awfull regimes, by your analogy we should have boycoted the USA a few decades ago for the support of Pinochet. (Or Sadam for that matter when he was still liked...)

Besides...didn't the US had lots of buffelo's a few centuries ago?

Sure thing, but then you suddenly realise you need to pay twice the price for alot of your daily commedities you take for granted...

And please I doubt China is the only nation that practised the art of supporting awfull regimes, by your analogy we should have boycoted the USA a few decades ago for the support of Pinochet. (Or Sadam for that matter when he was still liked...)

Besides...didn't the US had lots of buffelo's a few centuries ago?

Yeah, and we still do have lots of Buffalo. We also don't imprison people because of their religion, torture them, kill them and then sell their organs. China really is a fucking boil on Humanity's ass. Not the people, they're ok, just the government.

We could certainly annihilate it with nukes. I'm not sure if we should do that now or at some juncture in the future, but it's best to not wait for it to grow stronger.

Yeah...way to help the Panda population:rolleyes:

What can the world do to pressure China into better environmental policies?

Just wait and let nature take it's course. When oil runs out, China will crash and burn.

Just another reason to boycott China. (the other main one being, their support of the Sudanese government)
Their treatment of Tibet is also a pretty good reason, too.

China's Yangtze river was once home to a population of white dolphins, but now a new survey of the river shows that they're extinct. The Chinese are also guilty of a genocide against the handicapped. The Yangtze finless porpoise's numbers have dropped to below 400.
Not all bad news. A tall Mongolian was asked to internally molest a couple of white dolphins recently:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6178659.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/06/asia_pac_enl_1166089542/img/1.jpg

We could certainly annihilate it with nukes. I'm not sure if we should do that now or at some juncture in the future, but it's best to not wait for it to grow stronger.

Do you ever give in?
"I've got a problem.LETS USE TEH N00KS!"

Yeah...way to help the Panda population:rolleyes:

Way to help the HUMAN population,as well as hundreds of species.China holds a 1/6 of the worlds population,no?

Just wait and let nature take it's course. When oil runs out, China will crash and burn.

The thing is,this isn't nature taking it's course.It's China,and other MEDCs,fucking up nature.We need to start making changes,now,or we're all gunna crash and burn.

Give them a puppy!

No wait...They're killing those too.

and eat them too

China's Yangtze river was once home to a population of white dolphins, but now a new survey of the river shows that they're extinct. The Chinese are also guilty of a genocide against the handicapped. The Yangtze finless porpoise's numbers have dropped to below 400. http://cbs4boston.com/watercooler/watercooler_story_347150747.html


Seriously though, while I recognize that China is trying to develop it's economy, they're fucking up their environment. In the long run their irresponsible stewardship of their rivers will come back to bite us all in the ass. What can the world do to pressure China into better environmental policies?

Make sure that the USA (the world's largest polluter) also decides to improve the environment. Maybe if the USA decides to do this, China may be persuaded to follow suit.

Make sure that the USA (the world's largest polluter) also decides to improve the environment. Maybe if the USA decides to do this, China may be persuaded to follow suit.

I'm sure the USA has more pristine wild places than Europe or Asia as a whole do. People like to say we're polluters because of greenhouse gasses, but other than that we're pretty environmentally responsible.

Well the problem would sort itself out in china if they could just reduce the population a bit.
I know, what about a nice one child policy?

Well the problem would sort itself out in china if they could just reduce the population a bit.
I know, what about a nice one child policy?

How about a .25 child policy. Get four families together to raise one kid.

I'm sure the USA has more pristine wild places than Europe or Asia as a whole do. People like to say we're polluters because of greenhouse gasses, but other than that we're pretty environmentally responsible.

The fact that most of the world's population live in Asia and Africa and the fact that America rivals Europe for size but not for population probably helps. The USA is one of the few countries that is not overcrowded...in Europe alot of land has been taken up coping with expanding populations and China has 1 and a 1/2 billion people whilst America has 250 million but is of a similar size. However, despite having alot less people than China, the USA still manages to outpollute it :confused: . Maybe if America showed some environmental responsibility then the developing world may be inclined to develope more environmentally friendly methods of energy and industry.

The fact that most of the world's population live in Asia and Africa and the fact that America rivals Europe for size but not for population probably helps. The USA is one of the few countries that is not overcrowded...in Europe alot of land has been taken up coping with expanding populations and China has 1 and a 1/2 billion people whilst America has 250 million but is of a similar size. However, despite having alot less people than China, the USA still manages to outpollute it :confused: . Maybe if America showed some environmental responsibility then the developing world may be inclined to develope more environmentally friendly methods of energy and industry.

Outpollute it in what? Carbon dioxide? US coal fired electric plants produce much less mercury than Chinese ones.

When an American hockey player suffered symptoms from mercury contamination, he never expected that he might have power plants half way across the world in China to blame. With its growing appetite for energy, China is finding its many coal-burning power plants hard at work generating the much needed electricity power – as well as huge amounts of air pollutants like sulfur dioxide and mercury. The earth's climate system, however, does not recognize national borders, and that is how increased quantities of Chinese pollutants have joined, what the authors in this article call, a global "conveyor belt of bad air." This conveyor belt circles around the world, sending airborne polluting chemicals and particulates from one country to another, posing global health threats. Some scientists have estimated that 30% or more of the mercury settling into America's ecosystems comes from abroad – China, in particular. Experts have sought for possible solutions to transboundary pollution, but international environmental treaties have seldom worked effectively and the economic incentive for Chinese power plants is weak in this case. How to make local policies responsive to global problems? – YaleGlobalhttp://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=5058

Outpollute it in what? Carbon dioxide? US coal fired electric plants produce much less mercury than Chinese ones.

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=5058

I never said that China was not environmentally irresponsible. All I stated was that America should become more environmentally friendly before it can start telling others to improve thier environments. Also, CO2 is causing global warming - something that poses a much greater threat to the world on a whole than Mercury does.

I never said that China was not environmentally irresponsible. All I stated was that America should become more environmentally friendly before it can start telling others to improve thier environments. Also, CO2 is causing global warming - something that poses a much greater threat to the world on a whole than Mercury does.

The US is doing something about global warming. It's developing new technologies that will reduce dependence on fossil fuels. http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/12/06/spectrolab_new_cell_40percent/

Also CO2 is naturally removed from the environment by photosynthesis. When the new techonogy goes into effect the ammount of CO2 will plummet. That can't be said for mercury, which simply gets converted to methylmercury and absorbed into the food chain to eventually end up concentrated in humans.

The US is doing something about global warming. It's developing new technologies that will reduce dependence on fossil fuels. http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/12/06/spectrolab_new_cell_40percent/

Also CO2 is naturally removed from the environment by photosynthesis. When the new techonogy goes into effect the ammount of CO2 will plummet. That can't be said for mercury, which simply gets converted to methylmercury and absorbed into the food chain to eventually end up concentrated in humans.

Whilst it is busy researching, the US has not cut its emissions and if it did this it might be seen as actually being committed to fighting global warming.

Mercury is a problem but the world wide effects of global warming and the damage caused to the ozone layer by greenhouse gases are alot more dangerous in the long term. Most countries in the developed world do not produce large amounts of mercury, whereas many produce many greenhouse gases.
Overall, regardless of whether America thinks China is a bad polluter, the USA has to clean up its act as much as China does.

Whilst it is busy researching, the US has not cut its emissions and if it did this it might be seen as actually being committed to fighting global warming.

Mercury is a problem but the world wide effects of global warming and the damage caused to the ozone layer by greenhouse gases are alot more dangerous in the long term. Most countries in the developed world do not produce large amounts of mercury, whereas many produce many greenhouse gases.
Overall, regardless of whether America thinks China is a bad polluter, the USA has to clean up its act as much as China does.

Greenhouse gasses harm the ozone layer? That's new on me. Source please?

The only real pollution problem that you can point to where the USA is worse than other nations is greenhouse gas emmisions. It's true that we release a lot of CO2, but it's also true that we're working on new technologies that will cut those emmissions. When it comes to other pollutants, we're pretty damn clean.

Greenhouse gasses harm the ozone layer? That's new on me. Source please?

The only real pollution problem that you can point to where the USA is worse than other nations is greenhouse gas emmisions. It's true that we release a lot of CO2, but it's also true that we're working on new technologies that will cut those emmissions. When it comes to other pollutants, we're pretty damn clean.

Sorry I know that Greenhouse gases don't cause the damage to the ozone layer, remove that from my earlier response.

Also, whilst America may have a good record on other pollutants e.g. Sulphur Dioxide, it cannot tell others to clean up until it sorts out its greenhouse gas emissions.

China's Yangtze river was once home to a population of white dolphins, but now a new survey of the river shows that they're extinct. The Chinese are also guilty of a genocide against the handicapped. The Yangtze finless porpoise's numbers have dropped to below 400. http://cbs4boston.com/watercooler/watercooler_story_347150747.html


Seriously though, while I recognize that China is trying to develop it's economy, they're fucking up their environment. In the long run their irresponsible stewardship of their rivers will come back to bite us all in the ass. What can the world do to pressure China into better environmental policies?

what can the world do? stop voting for governments that put trade ahead of human rights.....China uses it's market size as a club, if you're not nice to them they don't do business with you....if countries all called their bluff and said F**k you, clean up your act if you want the good life, they would back down, they need us more than we need them.....

Sorry I know that Greenhouse gases don't cause the damage to the ozone layer, remove that from my earlier response.

Also, whilst America may have a good record on other pollutants e.g. Sulphur Dioxide, it cannot tell others to clean up until it sorts out its greenhouse gas emissions.

So here we have to agree to disagree. I do believe that man made greenhouse gasses are changing the climate, and I do believe that it has environmental consequences. I just don't think those consequences are as dire as some folks say and that the best solution to greenhouse gasses is to develop new technologies that don't emit those gasses rather than hold back the economy that drives that research and development.

what can the world do? stop voting for governments that put trade ahead of human rights.....China uses it's market size as a club, if you're not nice to them they don't do business with you....if countries all called their bluff and said F**k you, clean up your act if you want the good life, they would back down, they need us more than we need them.....

But how many countries are exactly going to do that......if the world couldn't unite 100% against the Nazi's, theres little hope of people boycotting any polluting countries in order to force them to change their ways.

So here we have to agree to disagree. I do believe that man made greenhouse gasses are changing the climate, and I do believe that it has environmental consequences. I just don't think those consequences are as dire as some folks say and that the best solution to greenhouse gasses is to develop new technologies that don't emit those gasses rather than hold back the economy that drives that research and development.

We'll agree to disagree then.

Yeah, and we still do have lots of Buffalo. We also don't imprison people because of their religion, torture them, kill them and then sell their organs. China really is a fucking boil on Humanity's ass. Not the people, they're ok, just the government.

The Chinese communist government must change, or at least, must know that the world already hate them very much for their lack to respect Human Rights to their own subjects.

With the ongoing economic revolution in that country, most people will know how to build democracy like those in South Korea and Taiwan (two Oriental countries well-known for their democracy and respect for Human Rights, with similar cultural tradition as the Chinese have).

Tibetan Buddhists, Xinjiang Moslems, Falun Gong followers, Chinese Christians, etc. The government slaughters them, or at least wants to dominate them all.

I don't blame the Chinese for their treatment to their own environment. It's a price they have to pay if they want to become an economically powerful country. They have rights to do so, just like the Americans killed most buffalos and torturing North American forests, during their expansions into the west in the 18th-19th century.

Yeah, the Americans, the Japanese, and the Europeans can say that China is ruining its environment. They will never realize how much devastation they did in the last century against mankind and the environment either - worse compared to what China is doing recently. :rolleyes:

So here we have to agree to disagree. I do believe that man made greenhouse gasses are changing the climate, and I do believe that it has environmental consequences. I just don't think those consequences are as dire as some folks say and that the best solution to greenhouse gasses is to develop new technologies that don't emit those gasses rather than hold back the economy that drives that research and development.

ok but you're risking the lives of your children and grandchildren and the planet itself if you're wrong.....if the other viewpoint is wrong the worst result is a damaged economy, the planet will recover from that......so the choice comes down to the lesser of two evils.....a damaged economy or a drastically damaged planet and the economy with it

But how many countries are exactly going to do that......if the world couldn't unite 100% against the Nazi's, theres little hope of people boycotting any polluting countries in order to force them to change their ways.

no hope at all.....greed rules, everyone wants their inexpensive plasma tv made in China, they don't give a F*** about Tibet or extinct dolphins....

ok but you're risking the lives of your children and grandchildren and the planet itself if you're wrong.....if the other viewpoint is wrong the worst result is a damaged economy, the planet will recover from that......so the choice comes down to the lesser of two evils.....a damaged economy or a drastically damaged planet and the economy with it

How is global warming going to kill my future children or grandchildren or the planet? I think the worst case scenario I've heard is that the "conveyor" ocean current that brings warmth to the northern lattitudes would stop from an influx of fresh water as the arctic melts and we'd experience a short ice age. Certainly not good for the economy, or the environment, but not the end of the world.

http://www.whoi.edu/institutes/occi/viewArticle.do?id=5098

How is global warming going to kill my future children or grandchildren or the planet? I think the worst case scenario I've heard is that the "conveyor" ocean current that brings warmth to the northern lattitudes would stop from an influx of fresh water as the arctic melts and we'd experience a short ice age. Certainly not good for the economy, or the environment, but not the end of the world.


http://www.whoi.edu/institutes/occi/viewArticle.do?id=5098

mass starvation, possibly end of civilization.....


...potential collapse of ocean ecosystem, oceans die, we die, an increase of only a few degrees will destroy coral reefs/food supply
....expansion of deserts, change of rain patterns, loss of agricultural land particularly in third world countries=mass starvation, not millions think billions....
....loss of fresh water supplies as glacier feed rivers dry up, I live in a city of a million, 90% of our water comes from a glacier, the glacier will be completely gone in 30 yrs and our pop will be at 1.4 million, not a good situation
....melting of permafrost(it's happening at an alarming rate) areas in northern latitudes will unlock tremendous amounts of methane gas now frozen....initial calculations of adding these gases to global warming will be sufficient to raise temp 5 degrees C world wide and cause a mass extinction, 5 degrees doesn't sound like a lot but it will destroy many ecosystems....in mass extinctions only small creatures survive....

in the the big picture we don't matter, if we cause a mass extinction(including ourselves) the planet will recover in 5-10 million yrs and be better off without us.....

Well the problem would sort itself out in china if they could just reduce the population a bit.
I know, what about a nice one child policy?
Highly likely a population reduction is on the cards over the next couple of generations, chiefly thanks to their one-child policy.
Because boys are still much higly favoured than girls in Chinese society, there's an increasing gender imbalance occurring there. Parents are getting ultrasounds to determine the fetus' sex and aborting if it's a girl. Authorities are trying to clamp down on this but it still happens.

Same is happening in India.

iirc, usual sex ratio for births is 51/49 boys/girls. In parts of China and India, it's up to 60/40 or worse.

Gonna be a lot of lonely bachelors there in 30 years time.

Might be a good idea to buy stocks in porn companies.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=510888

:( I... I was in line first, Timmy...


*runs off crying*

Way to help the HUMAN population,as well as hundreds of species.China holds a 1/6 of the worlds population,no?
More than 1/5. :(