NationStates Jolt Archive

Wow. I thought Russia was safe from being overrun by immigrants. Being a poor country herself, she wasnt supposed to attract large number of immigrants.


Islam thrives as Russia's population falls
CROWDED MOSQUES | Worried local authorities
won't allow Muslims to build more places of worship
Dec. 3, 2006. 01:00 AM
MICHAEL MAINVILLE
SPECIAL TO THE STAR, MOSCOW

Moscow-Asteady stream of devout Muslims pours into the Sobornaya Mosque on a cold, grey Friday afternoon. The Arabic call to prayer echoes incongruously among Soviet-era apartment buildings and monolithic relics of Moscow's 1980 Olympics.

As usual, the mosque's blue walls cannot contain the hundreds of people looking to pray.

"I'm sorry, it's full," a bearded man in a white skullcap repeats again and again to worshippers showing up at the doors.

Soon, the courtyard outside the mosque is crammed with men removing their hats and shoes to pray. Some lay down elaborate prayer mats of finely woven silk; others settle for tattered newspapers. When the men kneel in the direction of Mecca, their foreheads press against hard concrete.

Attending the prayers with his 8-year-old son, Zabir Valeev can hardly hide his frustration at having to pray under these conditions. The two come to the Sobornaya Mosque nearly every Friday and are often forced to pray outside.

"We shouldn't have to stand out here in the cold," says Valeev, 32. "What does it show to my son that there is no place in Moscow for us to pray?"

The Sobornaya Mosque is one of only four mosques in Moscow serving a Muslim population of 2.5 million — the largest of any European city. Crammed amid the grey monoliths of Moscow's 1980 Olympics complex, it was the only Islamic house of worship allowed to function during the Soviet period, usually empty due to religious repression.

Today, like Moscow's other mosques, it overflows with worshippers on Fridays and holy days. Muslim leaders have been trying to get permission from the city to expand the mosque, and to build many more, but their attempts have failed.

"In the Soviet period, people were forbidden from practising their religions. Now, they are embracing their faith again," says Ildar Alyautdinov, an imam at the Sobornaya Mosque. "But to have only four mosques in Moscow, obviously that's not enough .... We deserve more respect."

Russia is in the midst of startling transformation. Islamic faith is thriving across the country. If current trends continue, experts say, more than half of Russia's population will be Muslim by mid-century.

Few expect it will be an easy transition. Tensions are already high between the country's ethnic Russian population and the diverse group of nationalities that make up the Muslim community. Inter-ethnic violence is on the rise and extreme nationalist groups are gaining influence.

A backlash is already underway. Attacks on mosques are not uncommon and in September an imam in the southern city of Kislovodsk was shot dead outside his home. During days of rioting in August, angry mobs chased Chechens and other migrants from the Caucasus region out of the northwestern town of Kondopoga.

Spurring on the mob was Alexander Belov, charismatic head of the Movement Against Illegal Immigration, an increasingly powerful lobby group that has staged dozens of rallies in recent months. In an interview at a Czech restaurant in central Moscow, Belov railed against what he called the growing "Islamification" of Russia.

"Russia is historically a Slavic, Orthodox Christian land and we need to make sure it stays that way," he said, adding that Orthodox Christianity should be enshrined as Russia's official religion and efforts made to convert Muslims. Islam is currently recognized as one of Russia's official religions, along with Orthodox Christianity, Judaism and Buddhism.

Like many nationalists, Belov makes no distinction between Muslim immigrants and Russian citizens of Islamic faith. He says Muslims, no matter what their citizenship, should be restricted from living in "traditional Russian lands."

Muslim leaders say the Russian media is fuelling antagonism. Many Russians associate Islam with religious extremists from Chechnya who have carried out dozens of bombings and other attacks against civilians. On Russian television, Muslims are most often portrayed as either criminals or religious radicals waging a holy war against Christians. One of Russia's bestselling novels last year, The Mosque of Notre Dame de Paris, depicts a mid-21st century Europe where Islam is the state religion and Christians are forced to live in ghettos.

"I worry all the time about my children," says Timur, a 44-year-old Moscow businessman, after prayers at the Sobornaya Mosque. "I worry that they'll be attacked on the streets or in the subway. My wife is afraid every time they leave the house."

After Friday prayers at the mosque, many worshippers linger, chatting in small groups or browsing amid stalls selling prayer mats, skullcaps and tasbih, the traditional Muslim prayer beads. The languages spoken reflect the incredible diversity of Russia's Muslim population. The Turkic sounds of Tatar and Azeri mix with the guttural tones of Chechen and the Persian rhythm of Tajik.

Some here are newly arrived immigrants from the former Soviet states of Central Asia; others are from Muslim-majority regions that remained part of Russia after the Soviet collapse.

Russia's Muslim communities boast far higher birth rates than those of the country's Christian Orthodox, ethnic Slavs. Russia's overall population is dropping at a rate of 700,000 people a year, largely due to the short life spans and low birth rates of ethnic Russians.

According to the CIA World Factbook estimate, Russia's overall fertility rate is 1.28 children per woman, far below what is needed to maintain the country's population of about 143 million.

Muslim Russians, meanwhile, are bucking the trend, with some communities averaging as many as 10 children per woman. The Central Asian states that traditionally send large numbers of immigrant workers to Russia also have much higher birth rates.

Since 1989, Russia's Muslim population has increased by 40 per cent to about 25 million. By 2015, Muslims could make up a majority of Russia's conscript army and they could account for one-fifth of the country's population by 2020.

If trends continue for the next 30 years, people of Muslim descent will outnumber ethnic Russians, says Paul Goble, an expert on Islam in Russia and research associate at the University of Tartu in Estonia.

"Russia is going through a religious transformation that will be of even greater consequence for the international community than the collapse of the Soviet Union."

The country's Muslim leaders look on the population spurt, and media coverage, with apprehension.

"The image of Muslims presented in the media is very distorted," says Rusham Abbyasov, a spokesman for the Council of Muftis. "When people hear the phrase Allahu akbar ("God is great" in Arabic) they immediately think of people shooting at them or blowing themselves up."

Sensing the nationalist mood, Russian authorities have begun to crack down.

Four Russian regions recently introduced mandatory classes in Orthodox Christianity in all schools. On Nov. 15, the Russian cabinet announced a new law that will ban foreigners from working in retails stalls and markets next year. The law doesn't specifically target Muslims, but the vast majority of people working in Russia's markets are either Muslim immigrants or from traditionally Muslim parts of Russia.

Goble says the growing anti-Islamic sentiment threatens to push Russian Muslims further outside the mainstream and into the arms of radicals.

Because of the Soviet legacy of religious repression, the majority of people living in Russia with Muslim backgrounds are secular, attached to Islam mostly as part of their ethnic identity. But with interest in Islam surging, Goble says, these people are open to being influenced by extremist idea.

"People who know they are Muslims but don't know exactly what that means could be radicalized, especially if they feel excluded from Russian society. It's a real threat."

At the Sobornaya Mosque, there are already some signs of the dangers ahead. One bearded young man, who refuses to give even his first name, anticipates a day when large chunks of Russia can be broken off into Islamic states. "It's only a matter of time," he says.

Source (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1165099811123&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home)

Edit: While on the subject, do muslim women hide a second uterus beneath those veils??

Oh noes! Teh Muslims have n00ks!














Or perhaps not.

So?

I'm sure the Russians will cleanse their land of Muslims sooner or later. They don't strike me as the most tolerant folks.

Oh. Noes.

I'm sure the Russians will cleanse their land of Muslims sooner or later. They don't strike me as the most tolerant folks.

They're just saving up to buy enough polonium. (Pretty dismissive, ain't we?)

Russia has 10,000 nukes?

I'd rather have Muslims with the largest collection of nukes than Russians then again knowing how other former Soviet territories are becoming I wouldn’t be surprised if we get some serious trouble from this

...wow, I thought Russia was safe from being overrun by immigrants.

Overrun by the foreign Hoardes!!! We will see who holds sway over the five points!!!

annnnd scene.

Nice poll options.

O noz Russia may or may not be 23-30% Muslim in 44 years!

http://demographymatters.blogspot.com/2006/05/islam-in-russia-evolution-in-action.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4341648.stm

I'd rather have Muslims with the largest collection of nukes than Russians then again knowing how other former Soviet territories are becoming I wouldn’t be surprised if we get some serious trouble from this

I'd rather have the Russians keep them. At least we know that the Russians have experience maintaining an arsenal of WMDs that can destroy the entire planet multiple times over.

Russia has 10,000 nukes?

16,000 I do believe (Russian nukes though nobody even bothers stealing them:p )

Russia has 10,000 nukes?

I think that 10,000 is a bit of a high estimate, but yes, Russia does have quite a few nukes under thier thumb-more than America does, at any rate. Last I heard, most Russian nukes are obsolete as far as rocket and missles technology goes.

I was always under the impression that quite a few nukes were taken by Soviet breakaway nations after the fall of the Soviet Union as well.

Wow. I thought Russia was safe from being overrun by immigrants. Being a poor country herself, she wasnt supposed to attract large number of immigrants.


Source (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1165099811123&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home)

You know, maybe if the Russians hadn't taken over so many muslim countries, this wouldn't be a problem...

Edit:
Oh, SNAP!
Like many nationalists, Belov makes no distinction between Muslim immigrants and Russian citizens of Islamic faith. He says Muslims, no matter what their citizenship, should be restricted from living in "traditional Russian lands."

I'd rather have the Russians keep them. At least we know that the Russians have experience maintaining an arsenal of WMDs that can destroy the entire planet multiple times over.

and Russian Muslims won't receive some sort of education on this :confused:

(Pretty dismissive, ain't we?)

*Cries* :(

In Soviet Russia ... wait ... that doesn't really work here, does it ...

*exits thread quickly*

They're just saving up to buy enough polonium. (Pretty dismissive, ain't we?)

What can we do? If Russia becomes as anti-American as Iran or something, and it still has those nukes, we still have the ability to deter them. If deterance fails, well, I don't have a bomb shelter so I don't have to deal with the consequences. I'm cool with the old Pat Henry's "Live free or die" thing. If they threaten my freedom, everybody dies.

16,000 I do believe (Russian nukes though nobody even bothers stealing them:p )

Oh shit. I lost the opportunity to make my title more sensational...

and Russian Muslims won't receive some sort of education on this :confused:

I doubt it. How many Muslims are in the Strategic Rocket Forces, and how many of them were in positions of Soviet military power during the Cold War? And, for that matter, how many of those Muslims have the kind of education to maintain, upgrade and secure those nuclear stockpiles?

The Russian government is primarily comprised of people who have that kind of experience. I trust them a lot more.

I was always under the impression that quite a few nukes were taken by Soviet breakaway nations after the fall of the Soviet Union as well.

oh there still under Moscow’s control (it helps if you have the launch codes) apparently all the Soviet block nations can hack the nukes very easily though

In Soviet Russia ... wait ... that doesn't really work here, does it ...

In America, you nuke Muslims. In Sovet Russia, Muslims nuke you!

What can we do? If Russia becomes as anti-American as Iran or something, and it still has those nukes, we still have the ability to deter them. If deterance fails, well, I don't have a bomb shelter so I don't have to deal with the consequences. I'm cool with the old Pat Henry's "Live free or die" thing. If they threaten my freedom, everybody dies.

True, true. The "everybody dies" option is usually the winning hand. We could run an option on that, too, and blow ourselves up. That way we go fast but everyone else dies the slow, agonizing way through radiation poisoning and starvation.

True, true. The "everybody dies" option is usually the winning hand. We could run an option on that, too, and blow ourselves up. That way we go fast but everyone else dies the slow, agonizing way through radiation poisoning and starvation.

See? Every dark cloud has a silver lining and USA is still number 1.

"When people hear the phrase Allahu akbar ("God is great" in Arabic) they immediately think of people shooting at them or blowing themselves up."

when I hear the phrase "God bless America" I immediately think, who the fuck are they invading now?

"When people hear the phrase Allahu akbar ("God is great" in Arabic) they immediately think of people shooting at them or blowing themselves up."

when I hear the phrase "God bless America" I immediately think, who the fuck are they invading now?

Looks like Russia. This should get interesting.

"When people hear the phrase Allahu akbar ("God is great" in Arabic) they immediately think of people shooting at them or blowing themselves up."

when I hear the phrase "God bless America" I immediately think, who the fuck are they invading now?

If only for that, that man in the White House should go down in history as the worst President we've ever had. When will it be 2009?

"When people hear the phrase Allahu akbar ("God is great" in Arabic) they immediately think of people shooting at them or blowing themselves up."

when I hear the phrase "God bless America" I immediately think, who the fuck are they invading now?

Your thought process is amazing. You should donate your brain after you die. Might cause breakthroughs in human evolution....

OHNOES! There are MUSLIMS in Russia!

What's next, they're going to BREATHE AIR too?

Oh noes!

Oh. Noes.

OHNOES!

Oh noes!

For some reason the only thing I thought about while reading that was, why is that guy forcing his 8 year old child to pray with him?

OHNOES! There are MUSLIMS in Russia!

What's next, they're going to BREATHE AIR too?

Hey don't make light of the Muslim threat to our air. There are over a billion of them. All they do all day is inhale our oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide. They're causing global warming and using up good, American oxygen to keep their suicide bombers up and running.

Oh noes!

:)

For some reason the only thing I thought about while reading that was, why is that guy forcing his 8 year old child to pray with him?

Probably the same reason I was forced to go to Church until I became too big to literally drag along.

Parents of any religion seem to often want their children to join the religion. It's all part of some vicarious thrill parents get from making their children do this or that.

Oh noes!

For some reason the only thing I thought about while reading that was, why is that guy forcing his 8 year old child to pray with him?

Because the avarage muslim is much more religious than an avarage European?

Because the avarage muslim is much more religious than an avarage European?

does the med count?

And why is it every n00b hates Muslims?

does the med count?

And why is it every n00b hates Muslims?

Of course it counts. Spain is one of the few countries with legalized gay marriage, for ex. I think it's ignorant to say "does the med count?"...

Your thought process is amazing. You should donate your brain after you die. Might cause breakthroughs in human evolution.... yes, an example of a fully developed Sapien Sapien, something you'll never achieve

Odinsgaard-" While on the subject, do muslim women hide a second uterus beneath those veils??"-maybe you can donate your brain it was thought by anthropologist the last of such mind sets as yours had gone extinct decades ago-

Hey don't make light of the Muslim threat to our air. There are over a billion of them. All they do all day is inhale our oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide. They're causing global warming and using up good, American oxygen to keep their suicide bombers up and running.

I agree with the drunken commie , Muslims are causing a heck of alot of pollution so they can try and immitate a european lifestyle

Of course it counts. Spain is one of the few countries with legalized gay marriage, for ex. I think it's ignorant to say "does the med count?"...

Spain isn't the med its mainland Europe :p (as a rule the closer you get to Italy the more religious it gets)

In Soviet Russia ... wait ... that doesn't really work here, does it ...

*exits thread quickly*

In Soviet Russia, the thread wins you.

yes, an example of a fully developed Sapien Sapien, something you'll never achieve

Odinsgaard-" While on the subject, do muslim women hide a second uterus beneath those veils??"-maybe you can donate your brain it was thought by anthropologist the last of such mind sets as yours had gone extinct decades ago-

I think your comments were neither funny nor sensical, given that all majority muslim countries have huge problems, ranging from lack of human rights to poverty.
Yes, USA is religious. But it's nowhere near most, maybe all muslim countries.

Oh and I was being sarcastic, wasnt really flaming your intelligence. I suggest you do the same, it's just lame and suggests you are bitter for whatever reason...

I think that 10,000 is a bit of a high estimate, but yes, Russia does have quite a few nukes under thier thumb-more than America does, at any rate. Last I heard, most Russian nukes are obsolete as far as rocket and missles technology goes.

I was always under the impression that quite a few nukes were taken by Soviet breakaway nations after the fall of the Soviet Union as well.

Frankly I'd be quite suprised if Russia had more nukes than America. From talking with people I know who worked with the govt., I wouldn't be suprised if the US had more chemical/biological weapons.

Hey don't make light of the Muslim threat to our air. There are over a billion of them. All they do all day is inhale our oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide. They're causing global warming and using up good, American oxygen to keep their suicide bombers up and running.

Statistical trends indicate that by the year 2100, they will be breathing all the air in the atmosphere. There may even be a correlation with the declining number of pirates.

Frankly I'd be quite suprised if Russia had more nukes than America. From talking with people I know who worked with the govt., I wouldn't be suprised if the US had more chemical/biological weapons.

The Soviets had a ton of all three. They had us beat in biological and nuclear stockpiles, but I don't really know about chemical weapons.

Statistical trends indicate that by the year 2100, they will be breathing all the air in the atmosphere. There may even be a correlation with the declining number of pirates.

Oxygen terrorism is an actual, dire, threat to our freedom. But I don't think it has anything to do with pirates. I mean, come on, pirates? Don't be silly.




They're still too busy recovering from their war with the zombies.

I think your comments were neither funny nor sensical, given that all majority muslim countries have huge problems, ranging from lack of human rights to poverty.
Yes, USA is religious. But it's nowhere near most, maybe all muslim countries.

Oh and I was being sarcastic, wasnt really flaming your intelligence. I suggest you do the same, it's just lame and suggests you are bitter for whatever reason...
it wasn't meant to be funny,over your head obviously...your observation that Muslim women wear a veil to hide a second uterus...that was meant to be funny?

Muslim countries lack of human rights? poverty? hmmmm not unlike the USA

USA is religious but nowhere near most/all muslim countries? a President that gets his gets his direction from God I never would have guessed....

z0mg teh Islams are take over Mother Russia! ALL J00R BASES ARE BELONG TO ISLAMS

why is that guy forcing his 8 year old child to pray with him?

Muslims make children pray...Catholics on the other hand...

*damn there's no bumming smilie*


Pakistan already has nukes. :eek:

Frankly I'd be quite suprised if Russia had more nukes than America. From talking with people I know who worked with the govt., I wouldn't be suprised if the US had more chemical/biological weapons.

The US is actively destroying it's old stockpile of chemical weapons. I know that for a fact because some of the VX gas is being destroyed in my home state, New Jersey. Also the US has made it a policy not to make bioweapons and has signed a treaty banning their use. The closest thing to a bioweapon we have are samples of smallpox kept at the CDC for research into how to defend ourselves if bioweapons are used against us.

it wasn't meant to be funny,over your head obviously...your observation that Muslim women wear a veil to hide a second uterus...that was meant to be funny?

Muslim countries lack of human rights? poverty? hmmmm not unlike the USA


No shit. Still the magnitudes of poverty and violations are hugely different.


USA is religious but nowhere near most/all muslim countries? a President that gets his gets his direction from God I never would have guessed....

How original. The Bush argument. I do not see a point in further discussion with you. Considering muslim countries range from death penalties to religous converts (Afghanistan) to stone death raped women (Iran) to legally unequal treatment of women (UAE)...

Islam is spreading, and very quickly. Get used to it.

No shit. Still the magnitudes of poverty and violations are hugely different.



How original. The Bush argument. I do not see a point in further discussion with you. Considering muslim countries range from death penalties to religous converts (Afghanistan) to stone death raped women (Iran) to legally unequal treatment of women (UAE)...

magnitudes of poverty are different? really, I would think people living on the street eating food from garbage bins is about as bad as it can get anywhere.

indefinite imprisonment without trial (Guacamole Bay), life in prison for stealing a slice of pizza because your hungry(3 strikes law California), death penalty for mentally retarded and children,Only Somalia and the USA have failed to ratify a treaty ban the execution of crimes committed by children

just as well you don't want to continue a debate with me, you're losing badly...which is to be expected , racist bigots rarely have any depth to their rants.....

In America, you nuke Muslims. In Sovet Russia, Muslims nuke you!

lol

Pakistan already has nukes, so does India which has a sizable Muslim minority.

If Muslims take over Russia and start throwing their nuclear weapons around, well, I may well die. I can't do anything about that (and neither can you), so I'm not going to worry about it. What would you have anyone do, anyway?

So muslims are inherently untrustworthy? Sorry wrong. You lose. Come back after youve actually met some muslims.

So muslims are inherently untrustworthy? Sorry wrong. You lose. Come back after youve actually met some muslims.

Dude, when you see so much douchebaggery taking place in the name of Islam it's only human nature to become somewhat distrustful.

Russia, do whatever is necessary and expedient to stop this development dead in its tracks.

Dude, when you see so much douchebaggery taking place in the name of Islam it's only human nature to become somewhat distrustful.

How much colossal douchebaggery was committed by the Soviets?

How much colossal douchebaggery was committed by the Soviets?

that doesn't count because they're white.

How much colossal douchebaggery was committed by the Soviets?

Yeah, and we didn't trust them. Remember Reagan's famous statement "trust but verify"? Basically we'll smile and shake your hand, but unless you commie rat bastards show us some proof, we'll assume you're still building nukes.

The only way Islamists in Russia are going to get nuclear material is with a Polonium-210 Hummus.

The only way Islamists in Russia are going to get nuclear material is with a Polonium-210 Hummus.

Not if Putin corners the market on it first!

sweet.

indefinite imprisonment without trial (Guacamole Bay)

Indefinite imprisonment without trial (POW camps during WWII). Not that those held at Gitmo deserve POW status.

life in prison for stealing a slice of pizza because your hungry(3 strikes law California)

No, 25 to life for choosing to commit a felony after you've already committed two previous qualifying felonies. If you can't stop committing felonies, like robbery (regardless of what is actually being stolen), after two previous warnings, you deserve long-term to permanent removal from society. And "because your [sic] hungry"? Cry me a river. Anyone who's "hungry" enough to commit robbery to get "a slice of pizza" can stand on a street corner with a tin cup and beg for loose change, and soon he'll have enough to buy that slice.


death penalty for mentally retarded and children

News flash: "children", i.e., present-day adults who committed first-degree murder while under the age of 18, are no longer subject to the death penalty, thanks to the Supreme Court (a foolish decision IMO).

As for the "mentally retarded," one can be "retarded" and still know right from wrong and appreciate the magnitude of one's criminal act.

Only Somalia and the USA have failed to ratify a treaty ban the execution of crimes committed by children

See above. And it is irrelevant if the entire world other than the US favors one side of an issue. If we believe we are right, we will maintain our position. Deal with it.

just as well you don't want to continue a debate with me, you're losing badly...which is to be expected , racist bigots rarely have any depth to their rants.....

And again, the smug self-righteousness of the leftist/lib comes shining through, as he scribes the mystical symbols "racist" and "bigot", expecting the power of these words to magically disarm anyone who opposes him. Well, it doesn't work, Homer.

Now go home and review the rules of grammar and punctuation :p

The Russkies are tough. I don't think a rise in the Muslim population is going to prevent them from doing... Well... Whatever it is they do.

And again, the smug self-righteousness of the leftist/lib comes shining through, as he scribes the mystical symbols "racist" and "bigot", expecting the power of these words to magically disarm anyone who opposes him. Well, it doesn't work, Homer.

Pointing out that you're a racist and a bigot doesn't "disarm" you with regards to preventing you from doing anything.

It's just a statement of fact.

However, I wouldn't really describe you as being "armed" either, in the sense that you mostly shoot blanks and then run away.

I view any religon that grows to be a threat, be it christanity or islam. Why the bloody hell cant atheism spread like wildfire?

does the med count?

And why is it every n00b hates Muslims?

Psst: It's not really a n00b, it's Ny Norland's newest incarnation :)

New Mitanni, it appears to me that you do not have much compassion for the poor and needy.

ill come back to that, you say that people at gitmo do not deserve POW status. I agree with you, terrorists do not deserve POW status but as an upholder of human rights the U.S. must treat them humanely to ensure its reputation is not tarnished, which im sure it does. The most important problem with gitmo is that we do not know whether the people held there have actually committed any crimes. we have not been allowed to investigate.

onto people stealing food because they are hungry. regardless of the previous crimes that you have committed, it is wrong to convict someone disproportionally. The persons who steals becuase they are hungry are not kleptomaniacs, if they were not hungry they would not steal. It is a social issue, also remember that begging is also illegal, if they were caught begging three times should they be put into prison?

indeed mentally retarded people can still realise the magnitude of their actions however the important fact to realise is that they cannot restrain themselves. they do not possess the mind and rationally to prevent themselves carrying out their acts. they also perhaps cannot emphasise with their victims or understand the consequences of their actions. I suggest that you learn more about mental disability because your statement indicated all the cognitive power of a mentally disabled person.

arguments that are racist and bigoted are completely unjustifiable because they are based on irrational fear and hate. therefore if you are a bigot and racist then you ARE disarmed as your argument is irrational.

The government of Russia is a cause for concern anyway, never mind its Muslim population.

Indefinite imprisonment without trial (POW camps during WWII). Not that those held at Gitmo deserve POW status.

-snip-
Your post covers many issues. I really would not like to live in a dystopia where most people think as you do.

Indefinite imprisonment without trial (POW camps during WWII). Not that those held at Gitmo deserve POW status.

-snip-
Your post covers many issues. I really would not like to live in a dystopia where most people think as you do.

magnitudes of poverty are different? really, I would think people living on the street eating food from garbage bins is about as bad as it can get anywhere.


Yes, most muslim countries are poor 3rd world countries. USA's GDP per capita is like 30,000 USD. The level of poverty experienced in places like Pakistan, Syria, Libya, Morrocco is much different than the level of poverty in USA. This is a simple concept. I'm surprised you are still having trouble to comprehend.


indefinite imprisonment without trial (Guacamole Bay), life in prison for stealing a slice of pizza because your hungry(3 strikes law California), death penalty for mentally retarded and children,Only Somalia and the USA have failed to ratify a treaty ban the execution of crimes committed by children


Yet they allow women to be elected. Something which lacks in many muslim countries. And you get your hand cut off in Saudi Arabia for theft, I think. In Iran, homosexuality is punishable by death.


just as well you don't want to continue a debate with me, you're losing badly...which is to be expected , racist bigots rarely have any depth to their rants.....

Keep telling yourself that. You seem to need it to feel good about yourself. However, this will be my last warn to you to stop flaming...

Why do you think Russian muslims are like middle eastern muslims? It is a different brand of Islam much closer to Turkish Islam. Maybe they will sweep down through the middle east and reestablish the Ottoman style metropolis and put an end to the Iranian idiots. We need a counterweight that is more rational than wahhabism. Turkish Islam is willing to talk to christianity and judaism unlike their middle eastern neighbors.

Why do you think Russian muslims are like middle eastern muslims? It is a different brand of Islam much closer to Turkish Islam. Maybe they will sweep down through the middle east and reestablish the Ottoman style metropolis and put an end to the Iranian idiots. We need a counterweight that is more rational than wahhabism. Turkish Islam is willing to talk to christianity and judaism unlike their middle eastern neighbors.

First of all Turks are Middle Eastern. Second of all I consider the whole Islamic culture backwards, ranging from treatment of women to:


Camel sacrificed by airport staff
Wednesday, December 13, 2006

Airline maintenance workers in Turkey celebrated a successful job by sacrificing a camel at Istanbul airport.

As a result of publicity over the sacrifice, the head of plane maintenance at Turkish Airlines has now been suspended, pending an investigation. Sacrificed, if you will.

The national flag-carrier admitted on Wednesday that the staff had slaughtered the dromedary after they had managed to beat their deadline for returning 100 aircraft to the supplier.

After the sacrifice took place, Turkey's biggest-selling daily newspaper, Hurriyet, claimed that 700 kilos of camel meat were distributed among the workers.

'They didn't ask permission,' a spokeswoman for Turkish Airlines told the BBC.

She added: 'They went too far. We are really quite shocked.'

As was the camel, presumably.

http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/article.html?in_article_id=29277&in_page_id=2

The Russkies are tough. I don't think a rise in the Muslim population is going to prevent them from doing... Well... Whatever it is they do.

Building huge-ass factories and tower blocks?

Pakistan already has nukes, so does India which has a sizable Muslim minority.

Yes but they dont have the advanced missiles to carry nukes to Europe/USA. Their ranges are limited...

1% of mainland Chinese population are Moslems. It means that Moslems makes up to twelves thousands. A large number of Moslem population compared with many smaller Islamic countries in Central Asia such as Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, etc.

Moslems in India makes up about 30% of the population. It counts more than 300 millions, far larger compared than Indonesia (the largest Islamic state). The majority of Pakistani people are Moslems. It counts more than 50 millions.

And Russia...although there are many Moslems living there, the Russian people won't convert themselves into Islam in a matter of decades. The Russians love vodka very much...and Moslems forbid themselves from drinking it. If the Russians convert to Islam, they have to abandon vodka.

It makes the idea of Islamic Russia is nearly impossible. :p

Camel burgers sound delicious. The Turks for the most part they aren't terrorists. No matter how much you may not like them, the Kazakhs, The Turkmen, and Russian Muslims are not that interested in blowing up westerners. Plus, they understand and can deal with westerners on a much evener keel than the Syrans and Iranians. I would much rather they were "administering" the Iraqis than the United States. If Turkey doesn't become part of the EU, it will be very likely we will see a "stan alliance-- kazakhstan, turkmenistan" which might provide a counterweight to the middle east.

Camel burgers sound delicious. The Turks for the most part they aren't terrorists. No matter how much you may not like them, the Kazakhs, The Turkmen, and Russian Muslims are not that interested in blowing up westerners. Plus, they understand and can deal with westerners on a much evener keel than the Syrans and Iranians. I would much rather they were "administering" the Iraqis than the United States. If Turkey doesn't become part of the EU, it will be very likely we will see a "stan alliance-- kazakhstan, turkmenistan" which might provide a counterweight to the middle east.

Those Kazakhs and Turks prove more secular than the Iranians and the Arabs. :rolleyes: That's why they prefer democracy and freedom, so they do not pose a threat to the West.

Their Islamic traditions are not as deep as those in the MidEast.

Oooh, I love this part:
Like many nationalists, Belov makes no distinction between Muslim immigrants and Russian citizens of Islamic faith. He says Muslims, no matter what their citizenship, should be restricted from living in "traditional Russian lands."
:rolleyes:

Keep telling yourself that. You seem to need it to feel good about yourself. However, this will be my last warn to you to stop flaming...

Flaming? you post a racist slur and I quote -"While on the subject, do muslim women hide a second uterus beneath those veils??" and you say I'm flaming!

What are you going to do about? Come to my home in a funny white sheet and hat burn a cross on my front lawn?

Dude, when you see so much douchebaggery taking place in the name of Islam it's only human nature to become somewhat distrustful.

THANK YOU. That's basically how I feel. Except I'd be willing to kick out people like that douche we have here, Al-Hilali.

How much colossal douchebaggery was committed by the Soviets?

And I'm pretty sure they got theirs.

THANK YOU. That's basically how I feel. Except I'd be willing to kick out people like that douche we have here, Al-Hilali.

Is he the guy who says that Muslims should rape women who dress slutty?

Is he the guy who says that Muslims should rape women who dress slutty?

Yes.

Yes.

Why don't people loudly protest outside his mosque every Friday during prayer time?

Why don't people loudly protest outside his mosque every Friday during prayer time?

That would be making a civil disturbance. Also known as terrorism.

That would be making a civil disturbance. Also known as terrorism.

Terrorism? No, that would be if someone mailed them a bomb or some anthrax. Protesting loudly in a public place (outside the mosque) would be like, civil disobedience or something.

Why is it that everyone has a problem with muslims being in the same country as nuclear weapons? How much more dangerous are they than Putin, or Bush for that matter?
Nuclear weapons are only a real threat to those who don't have them, and those who don't have them are not a threat to those who do.

Terrorism? No, that would be if someone mailed them a bomb or some anthrax. Protesting loudly in a public place (outside the mosque) would be like, civil disobedience or something.

Hmm. Well, the government (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061213/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_space_1) will be calling any attack on space satellites "terrorism" so clearly we're broadening the definition. Gay marriage is terrorism!

Also,

http://www.mwilliams.info/images/civildisobedience01.png

Why don't people loudly protest outside his mosque every Friday during prayer time?

No idea. We're all too laid back for that.

Hmm. Well, the government (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061213/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_space_1) will be calling any attack on space satellites "terrorism" so clearly we're broadening the definition. Gay marriage is terrorism!

Also,

http://www.mwilliams.info/images/civildisobedience01.png

So only speech that advocates raping women is protected? If someone protests about it they're the terrorists?

So only speech that advocates raping women is protected? If someone protests about it they're the terrorists?

Protest isn't exactly the same thing as speech. In fact they are two different freedoms in the US anyway, freedom of assembly, freedom of speech. The former is probably going to go away simply because groups of Muslims banding together are probably terroristic in nature. The latter is something of a myth anyway.

Protest isn't exactly the same thing as speech. In fact they are two different freedoms in the US anyway, freedom of assembly, freedom of speech. The former is probably going to go away simply because groups of Muslims banding together are probably terroristic in nature. The latter is something of a myth anyway.

United States Of Whatever Lyrics
by Liam Lynch
[ Download Free Lyrics Software featuring Liam Lynch ] [ Send to a friend ]

I went down to the beach and saw Kiki
She was, like, all "ehhhh"
And I was, like, "whatever!"

Then this chick comes up to me and she's all, like,
"Hey, aren't you that dude?"
And I'm, like, "yeah, whatever!"

So later I'm at the pool hall
And this girl comes up
And she's, like, "awww"
And I'm, like, "yeah, whatever!"

Cuz this is my
United States of Whatever!
And this is my
United States of Whatever!
And this is my
United States of Whatever!

And then it's three A.M.
And I'm on the corner, wearing my leather
This dude comes up and he's, like, "hey, punk!"
I'm, like, "yeah, whatever!"

Then I'm throwing dice in the alley
Officer Leroy comes up and is, like,
"Hey, I thought I told you..."
And I'm, like, "yeah, whatever!"

And then up comes Zafo
I'm, like, "yo, Zafo. What's up?"
He's, like, "nothin'"
And I'm, like, "that's cool."

Cuz this is my
United States of Whatever!
And this is my
United States of Whatever!

Your post covers many issues. I really would not like to live in a dystopia where most people think as you do.

Feel free not to visit :p

Am I right in assuming that Odinsgaard is just Nordland in yet another guise?
Or have we a new, yet remarkedly similar, rabid Muslim-hating bigot in our midst?

I'd rather have Muslims with the largest collection of nukes than Russians then again knowing how other former Soviet territories are becoming I wouldn’t be surprised if we get some serious trouble from this

i think that wether communists or muslims have nukes it doesnt matter.
I know that either way western society will probably be attacked by a couple nukes but worrying about it wont change anything.

not a hair will fall out of my head without my Heavenly Father allowing it.

Russian Islam is much MUCH more progressive than the barbaric state Church that is currently the dominant religion.

Russia will Islamise, and the Muslim scholars will show the Russian people that they needn't be serfs for a government made up of torturers and thieves. The Islamic Revolution will be the best thing that ever happened to the Rodina.

(I am not saying this as an Islamist, I am saying this as someone who realises that Russia is primed for total collapse, and that Liberal Islam seems capable of saving it.)

People in this thread seem to be making the mistaken assumption that these Russian Muslims are immigrants - they are not. Islamic tribes lived in the Rus' long before the Slavs arrived there. They are as Russian as any other Ivan, Dmitry or Pyotr...

And Russia...although there are many Moslems living there, the Russian people won't convert themselves into Islam in a matter of decades. The Russians love vodka very much...and Moslems forbid themselves from drinking it. If the Russians convert to Islam, they have to abandon vodka.

It makes the idea of Islamic Russia is nearly impossible. :p

Several schools of Islamic jurisprudence are more liberal in regards to alcohol than others, for example, in Turkey, whiskeys and other spirits are okay, but it is only drinks fermented from fruits (wines, ciders, etc.) that are harram. And liberal Islam in Russia is much the same. However, Russian Islamic culture does not condone drinking oneself to death like the current Russian mainstream.

At least we know that the Russians have experience maintaining an arsenal of WMDs that can destroy the entire planet multiple times over.

This has got to be the most unintentionally funny sentence ever.

In other news, I'm quite glad Ny Nordland's back. Although I find his (I always got the feeling he was a she... don't know why) views abhorant, he does fit a niche in the forum.

In other news, I'm quite glad Ny Nordland's back. Although I find his (I always got the feeling he was a she... don't know why) views abhorant, he does fit a niche in the forum.

Because she is a she, according to herself.

Significant portions of Russia’s population don’t even consider themselves Russian. They aren’t, and it has made exactly shit difference as far as the direction of the country goes. If your fear of Muslims was even partially based in fact, you’d have nothing to worry about.

I couldn't see Russia going islamic. The Russians don't seem to be as weak and gutless as most of the west. I couldn't see either the Russian government or people sitting by and letting islam take over. I think they'll be more than willing to get their hands dirty when it's required.

Because she is a she, according to herself.

Ah... maybe that's where I got it from then... Although I do recall threads where her masculinity was presumed and not denied... *shrug*

I couldn't see Russia going islamic. The Russians don't seem to be as weak and gutless as most of the west. I couldn't see either the Russian government or people sitting by and letting islam take over. I think they'll be more than willing to get their hands dirty when it's required.

Russians have very little to live for, it will be quite hard for someone to stir them into an anti-Islamic fervour. Stalin probably could, but there are very few Stalins these days. "Getting their hands dirty" would probably involve neo-Nazi groups (Nazbol, for instance) shooting up Mosques and schools. This would either galvanise Russian society for them, or against them... either way the corrupt Russian government will fall to a revolution by the end of this century. The uncertainty is as to whether it will be a genocidal group of Nazi thugs or a peaceful movement of liberal Muslims that will take over. If it is the former, then Russia has hammering the final nail in its coffin, and I say good riddens to bad rubbish. If it is the latter, Russia may have a chance to survive.

Russians have very little to live for, it will be quite hard for someone to stir them into an anti-Islamic fervour. Stalin probably could, but there are very few Stalins these days. "Getting their hands dirty" would probably involve neo-Nazi groups (Nazbol, for instance) shooting up Mosques and schools. This would either galvanise Russian society for them, or against them... either way the corrupt Russian government will fall to a revolution by the end of this century. The uncertainty is as to whether it will be a genocidal group of Nazi thugs or a peaceful movement of liberal Muslims that will take over. If it is the former, then Russia has hammering the final nail in its coffin, and I say good riddens to bad rubbish. If it is the latter, Russia may have a chance to survive.
You seem to have very low regard for the Russian people, like their lives are so empty in some way. Are you by any chance a muslim? It just seems like you have a very islamist attitude, with a disdain for anybody else. I doubt even the ordinary Russian people would be so willing to see islam take over. You also seem a bit too sure that islam in Russia would be of the peaceful, liberal variety (If such a thing even exists). Now I realise that the former Soviet republics of Central Asia have always tended to be more secular, but how long do you thing this will last? The jihadist variety of islam is taking off all over the islamic world, and I think if there was going to be a powerful islamic political presence in Russia it would take that form. That isn't going to win over many non-muslims. I also think what's gone on, and what else will go on in future in Chechnya will be enough to give ordinary Russians too much of a dislike for islam to let it take over their country so easily.

Russian Islam is much MUCH more progressive than the barbaric state Church that is currently the dominant religion.

Russia will Islamise, and the Muslim scholars will show the Russian people that they needn't be serfs for a government made up of torturers and thieves. The Islamic Revolution will be the best thing that ever happened to the Rodina.

(I am not saying this as an Islamist, I am saying this as someone who realises that Russia is primed for total collapse, and that Liberal Islam seems capable of saving it.)

Liberal islam is an oxymoron on the same level as "Good Hitler."

Ok, you all need to chill, Russia isn't going to be a muslim country- ever. It's never been a hot place for any religion. No pun intended. And if communism returns, (which is more possible than people believe) religion goes away again. I know someone mentioned this earlier in the forum, but its serious, its vodka. Russians consume it like fire burns gasoline. Islam forbids alcohol. The answer- no Islamic domination.

Ok, you all need to chill, Russia isn't going to be a muslim country- ever. It's never been a hot place for any religion. No pun intended. And if communism returns, (which is more possible than people believe) religion goes away again. I know someone mentioned this earlier in the forum, but its serious, its vodka. Russians consume it like fire burns gasoline. Islam forbids alcohol. The answer- no Islamic domination.

I sure hope so. The Russian govt. should start pumping more alcohol out there to make sure they're hooked.

Liberal islam is an oxymoron on the same level as "Good Hitler."

That's odd, I wouldn't think you'd consider "Good Hitler" to be oxymoronic.

No country other than America should be allowed to have nukes because we are the only ones who have ever used them for good.

Ok, you all need to chill, Russia isn't going to be a muslim country- ever. It's never been a hot place for any religion. No pun intended. And if communism returns, (which is more possible than people believe) religion goes away again. I know someone mentioned this earlier in the forum, but its serious, its vodka. Russians consume it like fire burns gasoline. Islam forbids alcohol. The answer- no Islamic domination.

Orthodox church was always strong in Russia and was present during the communist regime and will be again if the communists resume power.

Islam forbids alcohol-and the Pope forbids premarital sex that doesn't seem to stop many people...I know several muslims who like to have a beer....

No country other than America should be allowed to have nukes because we are the only ones who have ever used them for good.

how can the use of a nuke be at any time considered good? (other than deflecting planet destroying meteors)

how can the use of a nuke be at any time considered good? (other than deflecting planet destroying meteors)

Let's say lesser of two evils. If Japan wasn't nuked into unconditional surrender the US would have invaded. The Japanese civilians had been organized and trained to fight a guerilla insurgency. Many Americans and many more Japanese would have died. More than the number killed by fat man and little boy.

Let's say lesser of two evils. If Japan wasn't nuked into unconditional surrender the US would have invaded. The Japanese civilians had been organized and trained to fight a guerilla insurgency. Many Americans and many more Japanese would have died. More than the number killed by fat man and little boy.

yes, but it appears the allies wanted to see what the effects of a nuke would have on humans to study, an experiment.......a nuke taking of the top of Mt Fuji for all of Tokyo to see and then giving them a week to think about their future would have brought a surrender, without the horrendous loss of innocent civilians

yes, but it appears the allies wanted to see what the effects of a nuke would have on humans to study, an experiment.......a nuke taking of the top of Mt Fuji for all of Tokyo to see and then giving them a week to think about their future would have brought a surrender, without the horrendous loss of innocent civilians

Maybe, maybe not, but what happened was less destructive than an invasion of Japan would have been.

People in this thread seem to be making the mistaken assumption that these Russian Muslims are immigrants - they are not. Islamic tribes lived in the Rus' long before the Slavs arrived there. They are as Russian as any other Ivan, Dmitry or Pyotr...

Islam wasn't founded until between 610-632 A.D. and did not spread so far north until substantially later. There were no "Islamic tribes" prior to then. Period. The Turkic nomads that inhabited central Asia at the time were primarily shamanistic horsemen akin to the Huns before them and the Mongols after them.

Incidentally, history places the several Slavic tribes in what is now Russia and Eastern Europe long before Islam even existed. Not to mention the Scandinavian tribes that migrated inland. Also, very few of the tribes that WERE later converted to Islam actually settled into anything resembling permanent, substantial culture. How many Muslim cities existed in Russia?

Sorry to nitpick, but I’m an anthropology nerd (and a Slavic mutt for that matter) and that statement bothered me.

Liberal islam is an oxymoron on the same level as "Good Hitler."

Well, coming from anyone else, Potato Factory, I'd have called bullshit. However, as you're such an eminent expert on Islam, I'm afraid I'm going to have to believe you.
Where did you study Islam, by the way? I'm literally dazzled by your astounding range of knowledge in the field. Why, I'll bet everything you say about Islam is well-informed and completely, utterly true!

Because she is a she, according to herself.

I've never said that. Must be your imagination...

Ah... maybe that's where I got it from then... Although I do recall threads where her masculinity was presumed and not denied... *shrug*

So you believe everything you hear? Ok...whatever...