NationStates Jolt Archive

Imagine you were part of a small, shrinking community. You are the last English speakers left in the world, and you a minority in your country, which has been claimed by another culture. The mainstream culture you are surrounded by is totally unlike yours, and there has been pressure on you for generations to give up your culture and assimilate. For a while, your people were forced to attend schools that in essence stripped you of your language, removed you from your families and prevented you from learning your customs from your relations and community. Your ceremonies were actively repressed, and your people were strictly controlled by legislation, limiting every aspect of your life, from education, to housing, to healthcare, to religion. Those of you struggling to hold onto these things face the difficulty of learning from a shrinking pool of your oldest people, and every time one of them dies, parts of your language and culture are irretrievably lost.

In this situation...what would you do? Would you fight to survive, to retain your language and culture? Or would you allow yourself to blend into the mainstream? Yours is the last generation that has a choice...

Imagine you were part of a small, shrinking community. You are the last English speakers left in the world, and you a minority in your country, which has been claimed by another culture. The mainstream culture you are surrounded by is totally unlike yours, and there has been pressure on you for generations to give up your culture and assimilate. For a while, your people were forced to attend schools that in essence stripped you of your language, removed you from your families and prevented you from learning your customs from your relations and community. Those of you struggling to hold onto these things face the difficulty of learning from a shrinking pool of your oldest people, and every time one of them dies, parts of your language and culture are irretrievably lost.

In this situation...what would you do? Would you fight to survive, to retain your language and culture? Or would you allow yourself to blend into the mainstream? Yours is the last generation that has a choice...

Try and preserve many aspects of your own culture. However, it is important to try and adapt to the new culture...if it is the main culture of the country than you should try to adapt and intergrate with the people and the society there.

I think I'd mostly blend into the mainstream but try to keep a few traditions alive and make sure the history books remember my culture.

You are the last English speakers left in the world

That's a freaking utopia right there! (What? Don't blame me for your having picked a language whose extinction can't come soon enough...)

Imagine you were part of a small, shrinking community. You are the last English speakers left in the world, and you a minority in your country, which has been claimed by another culture. The mainstream culture you are surrounded by is totally unlike yours, and there has been pressure on you for generations to give up your culture and assimilate. For a while, your people were forced to attend schools that in essence stripped you of your language, removed you from your families and prevented you from learning your customs from your relations and community. Your ceremonies were actively repressed, and your people were strictly controlled by legislation, limiting every aspect of your life, from education, to housing, to healthcare, to religion. Those of you struggling to hold onto these things face the difficulty of learning from a shrinking pool of your oldest people, and every time one of them dies, parts of your language and culture are irretrievably lost.

In this situation...what would you do? Would you fight to survive, to retain your language and culture? Or would you allow yourself to blend into the mainstream? Yours is the last generation that has a choice...


I think I would try to keep as much of it alive as possible, and as much of it recorded, just in case. I'd raise my kids aware of their heritage, and I'd try and get as much information about my culture out there as possible.

I know however that this might well be futile. Simply by looking at the dialect I was raised speaking. I learned the official language when I entered school, but I have since lost and forgotten about this dialect. When talking to my grandmother, some of it sometimes gets to resurface, it's still in my brain apparently, although not always accessible. Looking around, I see that dialect changing more and more into the official language, turning into a mere accent now. The same goes for customs and traditions.

I would devote a lot of my time to keeping my culture alive, but I wouldn't devote my entire life to it.

I think I'd mostly blend into the mainstream but try to keep a few traditions alive and make sure the history books remember my culture.

This sounds good, maybe keep certain aspects alive with the occasional cultural festivels.

That's a freaking utopia right there! (What? Don't blame me for your having picked a language whose extinction can't come soon enough...)

Mandarin imperialism. :D

I'd move.

That's a freaking utopia right there! (What? Don't blame me for your having picked a language whose extinction can't come soon enough...)

Yes, better English than "I sound like a dog choking on a chicken bone" Arabic, or "12 word vocabulary" Chinese.

I don't buy this "cultural extinction" crap. It's just another excuse for the kind of bigotry exemplified by people like Ny Nordland. "Ohnoes! White people are being genocide-d! Islam is out to get you! Non-Whites are out to get you, and your little culture too!"

Frankly, culture is stupid.

Yes, better English...

... than any other language, yup.

Imagine you were part of a small, shrinking community. You are the last English speakers left in the world, and you a minority in your country, which has been claimed by another culture. The mainstream culture you are surrounded by is totally unlike yours, and there has been pressure on you for generations to give up your culture and assimilate. For a while, your people were forced to attend schools that in essence stripped you of your language, removed you from your families and prevented you from learning your customs from your relations and community. Your ceremonies were actively repressed, and your people were strictly controlled by legislation, limiting every aspect of your life, from education, to housing, to healthcare, to religion. Those of you struggling to hold onto these things face the difficulty of learning from a shrinking pool of your oldest people, and every time one of them dies, parts of your language and culture are irretrievably lost.

In this situation...what would you do? Would you fight to survive, to retain your language and culture? Or would you allow yourself to blend into the mainstream? Yours is the last generation that has a choice...

This is further compounded by the fact that not all of the young of this group are concerned, or are not willing to sacrifice their time to the difficulties of preserving their culture.

Then again, one has to wonder if assimilation and integration(not forcibly which was done and one of the greatest sins I can imagine) is a natural part of humanity's evolution.

I don't buy this "cultural extinction" crap. It's just another excuse for the kind of bigotry exemplified by people like Ny Nordland. "Ohnoes! White people are being genocide-d! Islam is out to get you! Non-Whites are out to get you, and your little culture too!"

Frankly, culture is stupid.

I think it is more of an attempt to make white's picture how it would feel to be a member of such a group, such as the variouse(sp) Native American nations.

Yes, better English than "I sound like a dog choking on a chicken bone" Arabic,

Fact is, you sound like a dog choking on a chicken bone no matter what language you use.

Frankly, culture is stupid.

... unless it's a non-white, non-European culture. Then it's fucking brilliant, isn't it?

I think it is more of an attempt to make white's picture how it would feel to be a member of such a group, such as the variouse(sp) Native American nations.

Native Americans had it differently. For example, my grandmother (Ojibwe) growing up in a federally run school, was beaten if she ever spoke her native language or dressed or otherwise "acted Indian."

That is not the same as simply becoming a minority, that is state-sponsored violent persecution of an ethnic group.

Fact is, you sound like a dog choking on a chicken bone no matter what language you use.

Yeah, and coming from an English speaker that was quite ironic. English is a hideous language - very unpleasant to the ear.

Native Americans had it differently. For example, my grandmother (Ojibwe) growing up in a federally run school, was beaten if she ever spoke her native language or dressed or otherwise "acted Indian."

That is not the same as simply becoming a minority, that is state-sponsored violent persecution of an ethnic group.

Yeah, exactly the situation the OP described, read the post.
For a while, your people were forced to attend schools that in essence stripped you of your language, removed you from your families and prevented you from learning your customs from your relations and community. Your ceremonies were actively repressed, and your people were strictly controlled by legislation, limiting every aspect of your life, from education, to housing, to healthcare, to religion.

Yeah, and coming from an English speaker that was quite ironic. English is a hideous language - very unpleasant to the ear.

You wanna talk about a unpleasant language? I live in a town with a large number of Vietnamese; now THAT'S unpleasant.

Yeah, exactly the situation the OP described, read the post.

Yeah OK, but when most people - like The Potato Factory - who believe that "whites" are being "extinctioned," they don't refer to that. They refer to the fact that other cultures exist. Their existence becomes, in their minds, the impending threat of doom and persecution.

... unless it's a non-white, non-European culture. Then it's fucking brilliant, isn't it?

Oh - oh man - oh, you got me. You figured me all out. I'm biased in favour of Non Whites. I'm actually part of a Fifth Column of anti-European, anti-White genocide force. And that is really why I object to whenever you make bigoted, racist little comments. That is, in fact, the only logical reason why I would. I must either be a Race Traitor, or a Terrorist, or or or or... or BOTH!

Yeah OK, but when most people - like The Potato Factory - who believe that "whites" are being "extinctioned," they don't refer to that. They refer to the fact that other cultures exist. Their existence becomes, in their minds, the impending threat of doom and persecution.



Well, yeah, but he's an idiot, while the OP is just trying to get people to put themselves in the other persons shoes and as such doesn't really deserve to be compared to the likes of him.

Those of you struggling to hold onto these things face the difficulty of learning from a shrinking pool of your oldest people, and every time one of them dies, parts of your language and culture are irretrievably lost.
We have books. Our culture doesn't disappear just because people die.

Native Americans had it differently. For example, my grandmother (Ojibwe) growing up in a federally run school, was beaten if she ever spoke her native language or dressed or otherwise "acted Indian."

That is not the same as simply becoming a minority, that is state-sponsored violent persecution of an ethnic group.

oh please-everyone was beaten in school, it was normal in those days....I was slapped, kicked, etc..and I was a white kid in a white school.....teachers were brutes corporal punishment was accepted method of behaviour modification for kids...

oh please-everyone was beaten in school, it was normal in those days....I was slapped, kicked, etc..and I was a white kid in a white school.....teachers were brutes corporal punishment was accepted method of behaviour modification for kids...

Yes, but the behavior modification in that case wasn't you practising your culture was it?

Yes, but the behavior modification in that case wasn't you practising your culture was it?

Yes, it was. Eating Paste is a sacred family tradition. :D

Imagine you were part of a small, shrinking community. You are the last English speakers left in the world, and you a minority in your country, which has been claimed by another culture. The mainstream culture you are surrounded by is totally unlike yours, and there has been pressure on you for generations to give up your culture and assimilate. For a while, your people were forced to attend schools that in essence stripped you of your language, removed you from your families and prevented you from learning your customs from your relations and community. Your ceremonies were actively repressed, and your people were strictly controlled by legislation, limiting every aspect of your life, from education, to housing, to healthcare, to religion. Those of you struggling to hold onto these things face the difficulty of learning from a shrinking pool of your oldest people, and every time one of them dies, parts of your language and culture are irretrievably lost.

In this situation...what would you do? Would you fight to survive, to retain your language and culture? Or would you allow yourself to blend into the mainstream? Yours is the last generation that has a choice...


Why are we so attached to culture? Why should the things that are only culture because we have been doing them for a long time have any importance to us?

oh please-everyone was beaten in school, it was normal in those days....I was slapped, kicked, etc..and I was a white kid in a white school.....teachers were brutes corporal punishment was accepted method of behaviour modification for kids...

yes but you werent taken by force from your family and sent to a boarding school where they had control of your life 24/7.

you werent taught that you were inferior, that everyone in your family was inferior, that everything about your life before you were dragged to that school was wrong.

What would I do?

Sovereignty comes to my mind. Draw a line in the sand, and say "From here to here, we get to decide our own destiny."

This does several important things. It empowers me, instead of making me a victim. We all have to stop blaming the Man and start looking at ourselves. And as another person pointed out, human migration and globalisation will ultimately change all cultures. Fine, I would accept that western culture is going to influence my native culture, but at least my people would be the ones who decided how that influence will play itself out. Some influences will be good, like increased rights for women if the native culture is patriarchical, and some will be bad. To ensure that the native culture can control or influence the nature of such integration, sovereignty would be very important.

Another thing is to have some sort of influence on the surrounding culture. To pull an example out of thin air, I will use the situation of Native groups in Canada. At this point in time, I think it would be great if Native peoples were better represented in the House of Commons.

I hear a crying child. Gotta go.

oh please-everyone was beaten in school, it was normal in those days....I was slapped, kicked, etc..and I was a white kid in a white school.....teachers were brutes corporal punishment was accepted method of behaviour modification for kids...

Those days?

So you're like, what - 80, 85?

Those days?

So you're like, what - 80, 85?
The schools I attended employed corporal punishment as recently as 1988. I was personally beaten as recently in 1982.

The schools I attended employed corporal punishment as recently as 1988. I was personally beaten as recently in 1982.

Shit really? Where are you at them? Coz I left school in 1984 in London, which means I started secondary school in umm 1979, and I just missed out on corporal punishment. heheh

yes but you werent taken by force from your family and sent to a boarding school where they had control of your life 24/7.

you werent taught that you were inferior, that everyone in your family was inferior, that everything about your life before you were dragged to that school was wrong.

where there were no schools kids were taken to boarding schools-there are still boarding schools today.....

I know that in some treaties with natives the natives "leaders" insisted their children be educated a term of the treaty, a shrewd move to ensure their children could compete in a white culture.....

"you weren't taught that you were inferior" absolutely I was....I and other classmates who were not of Anglo-Saxon origin were quite aware we were not as good as the English-if you weren't of English ancestry you could forget about getting a government job or management position......

The schools I attended employed corporal punishment as recently as 1988. I was personally beaten as recently in 1982.

Well, your beating notwithstanding, it's not really relevent to what happened in "those days" and the situations described in the OP.

In this situation...what would you do? Would you fight to survive, to retain your language and culture? Or would you allow yourself to blend into the mainstream? Yours is the last generation that has a choice...

I don't know. I've never been in this situation, so I've never felt that I had a particular culture that needed to be preserved. If it really meant a lot to me, I'd want to hold onto as much of it as I could. I'd learn as much as possible and share it with any other that were interested, and I'd try to hold to that culture and those customs as much as possible.

Of course, even if the culture as a whole was not important to me, I probably wouldn't just blend in to the mainstream. There would almost certainly be parts of the culture I would carry with me and pass down simply by the way I acted and thought. This happens even with family traditions - mine are not the same as my fiance's, even though we are pretty much the same ethnic group. Even if most of my life were lived similarly to the rest of society around me, I'm sure that this type of background would mean that I carried with me traditions and such that were different.

But I don't think it's accurate to say that one generation is the last that has this choice. If I were in this situation, and I chose to fight to preserve that culture, the next generation would have to do so as well, or it would be lost anyways. And so on.... And I don't think that is something you can force on your children. You can teach them about it, and hope they choose to continue it, but it will always be the choice of the next generation.

I'd move.

How would that help? You are the last...THIS is your homeland. Moving would only hasten your cultural demise.

where there were no schools kids were taken to boarding schools-there are still boarding schools today.....

I know that in some treaties with natives the natives "leaders" insisted their children be educated a term of the treaty, a shrewd move to ensure their children could compete in a white culture.....

"you weren't taught that you were inferior" absolutely I was....I and other classmates who were not of Anglo-Saxon origin were quite aware we were not as good as the English-if you weren't of English ancestry you could forget about getting a government job or management position......

there are boarding schools. people CHOOSE to send their children to them, they dont have to hide their children somewhere in hopes that the feds wont find them and drag them 100s of miles away from their families. many of those children didnt get back home to see their families for years.

of course native americans want education for their children. that doesnt mean what they got was right.

when and where did you go to school where being anglo saxon was enforced as better?

in any case, when you are living at home you get 18 hours of being yourself and 6 of having them try to make you into a little englishman. when you are in indian boarding school you are punished any time of the day that you act "indian". there is never a time when you are allowed to be yourself.

I don't buy this "cultural extinction" crap. It's just another excuse for the kind of bigotry exemplified by people like Ny Nordland. "Ohnoes! White people are being genocide-d! Islam is out to get you! Non-Whites are out to get you, and your little culture too!"

Frankly, culture is stupid.
I see your point, and I've considered that of course. But sometimes, they really are out to get you, and that is actively the intent of certain legislation and practices. They want us gone...if not physically, then culturally. We have nowhere to run to to maintain our culture...our roots are here. We lose more every day...and yes, it does create the atmosphere for bigotry towards non-aboriginals. And there are many of us that hate them for what they've done, and that isn't productive. But we are gasping our last breaths, and desperate to hold on.

I think I'd mostly blend into the mainstream but try to keep a few traditions alive and make sure the history books remember my culture.

So you'd be content to have your culture reduced to a historical reality?

And blending is important yes...but when there is no possibility of cultural renewal from outside, if you half-heartedly hang on...it's bound to eventually fade away. So I guess, it's whether you think your culture is worth hanging on to.

Do you, DC? Is your culture worth keeping alive?

This sounds good, maybe keep certain aspects alive with the occasional cultural festivels.

Like Italians, re-enacting ancient Roman festivals?

Or the Irish drinking green beer and calling that a cultural aspect?

It's not real though.

If the new culture was better, I'd happily embrace it and consign mine to the dustbin.

Honestly, I have no idea.

I don't particularly love my culture, and wouldn't necessarily mind adapting to someone else's (within certain limits), but I probably would feel regretful over the marginalization and eventual eradication of it.

Rather like my attitude towards Jewish assimilation, actually.

This is further compounded by the fact that not all of the young of this group are concerned, or are not willing to sacrifice their time to the difficulties of preserving their culture. Yes indeed.

Then again, one has to wonder if assimilation and integration(not forcibly which was done and one of the greatest sins I can imagine) is a natural part of humanity's evolution.

Don't focus too much on aboriginals...think about yourself here. If say, Japanese culture became overwhelmingly in the majority, and people willingly joined it, and abandoned their own (assuming they didn't have enough impact on their own to actually change parts of Japanese culture themselves)...would you follow that because it was inevitable?

... unless it's a non-white, non-European culture. Then it's fucking brilliant, isn't it?

Your culture is good for you, and it has inherent value. It's not as though other cultures could not 'learn' from yours and visa versa.

But that is also how I feel about my culture. It wouldn't be such an issue if my culture was not so actively threatened.

We have books. Our culture doesn't disappear just because people die.

Your books are not your culture....they are accounts of it. If your people die out, your culture is gone. There is only a record of it. A memory. Perhaps, with great difficulty and great perseverence, it could be resurrected...but if blending into the mainstream is more important, who would put forth the effort after the fact?

You would of course, if assimilated, still have culture. Just to be clear I'm not saying you'd be left culture-less.

Imagine you were part of a small, shrinking community. You are the last English speakers left in the world, and you a minority in your country, which has been claimed by another culture. The mainstream culture you are surrounded by is totally unlike yours, and there has been pressure on you for generations to give up your culture and assimilate. For a while, your people were forced to attend schools that in essence stripped you of your language, removed you from your families and prevented you from learning your customs from your relations and community. Your ceremonies were actively repressed, and your people were strictly controlled by legislation, limiting every aspect of your life, from education, to housing, to healthcare, to religion. Those of you struggling to hold onto these things face the difficulty of learning from a shrinking pool of your oldest people, and every time one of them dies, parts of your language and culture are irretrievably lost.

In this situation...what would you do? Would you fight to survive, to retain your language and culture? Or would you allow yourself to blend into the mainstream? Yours is the last generation that has a choice...

Become neo-Nazis? :rolleyes:

oh please-everyone was beaten in school, it was normal in those days....I was slapped, kicked, etc..and I was a white kid in a white school.....teachers were brutes corporal punishment was accepted method of behaviour modification for kids...

Were you forced to stop speaking your language? Forced to stop practicing your culture in all ways? Forced away from your family, with the state suddenly becoming your 'parent'?

The beatings were not the worst part of the abuse.

Why are we so attached to culture? Why should the things that are only culture because we have been doing them for a long time have any importance to us?

Those are good questions. What do you think? Is there anything about how you live that you would not want to change? If so...why not? What makes those things important to you?

Culture is not all about the past, either, don't forget. You speak English. If tomorrow, English was outlawed...why would that bother you? It shouldn't...if it is only something you've been doing a long time and has no importance outside of that.

Your books are not your culture....they are accounts of it. If your people die out, your culture is gone. There is only a record of it. A memory. Perhaps, with great difficulty and great perseverence, it could be resurrected...but if blending into the mainstream is more important, who would put forth the effort after the fact?

You would of course, if assimilated, still have culture. Just to be clear I'm not saying you'd be left culture-less.

In this modern age, I might try to record as much of my culture as I could in film and sound recording, even take DNA samples to preserve my people on that level, though not in any hope of cloning but more to record everything I could. If there were unjust laws oppressing me, I might call on the international community for help and recognition. And I would also try to take advantage of that alien culture in which I find myself, to use it to carry my people out of that oppression to a place - a time - where the oppression does not exist. I would not - I would try not to sink into the despair of becoming a perpetual victim, and I would try to keep my people from giving in to hopelessness and all its attendant ills.

But I've never been in that position, Neesika, so I can't really know.

So you'd be content to have your culture reduced to a historical reality?

And blending is important yes...but when there is no possibility of cultural renewal from outside, if you half-heartedly hang on...it's bound to eventually fade away. So I guess, it's whether you think your culture is worth hanging on to.

Do you, DC? Is your culture worth keeping alive?

Sure my culture is worth keeping alive. It's a strong culture because it can dominate and even assimilate elements of other cultures. It's proven that time and time again by becoming dominant when it came into contact with other cultures and learning from those cultures the ideas, art, and traditions that are valuable. If a stronger culture comes along and we can't absorb it, maybe we can join it and make some of our traditions live on as a new part of it.

Sure my culture is worth keeping alive. It's a strong culture because it can dominate and even assimilate elements of other cultures.

Since when does "strong" imply "good"?

And since when is culture the only, or even primary, factor in the power of a society?

Since when does "strong" imply "good"?

And since when is culture the only, or even primary, factor in the power of a society?

There is no substitute for victory. Or, it pays to be a winner.

Didn't Adolf joke one day, "does anyone remember the Armenians?"

I don't know. I've never been in this situation, so I've never felt that I had a particular culture that needed to be preserved. Well, sometimes it's hard to really see what your culture is until you've been in a situation where your norm is not the norm. But you of course have a culture.

If it really meant a lot to me, I'd want to hold onto as much of it as I could. I'd learn as much as possible and share it with any other that were interested, and I'd try to hold to that culture and those customs as much as possible.

Of course, even if the culture as a whole was not important to me, I probably wouldn't just blend in to the mainstream. There would almost certainly be parts of the culture I would carry with me and pass down simply by the way I acted and thought. This happens even with family traditions - mine are not the same as my fiance's, even though we are pretty much the same ethnic group. Even if most of my life were lived similarly to the rest of society around me, I'm sure that this type of background would mean that I carried with me traditions and such that were different.

But I don't think it's accurate to say that one generation is the last that has this choice. If I were in this situation, and I chose to fight to preserve that culture, the next generation would have to do so as well, or it would be lost anyways. And so on.... And I don't think that is something you can force on your children. You can teach them about it, and hope they choose to continue it, but it will always be the choice of the next generation.

I say the last generation, because I am setting up a situation where the culture is that close to being lost completely...the erosion would have had to be happening for generations already. What you know of your culture would already be sketchy.

Sure my culture is worth keeping alive. It's a strong culture because it can dominate and even assimilate elements of other cultures. It's proven that time and time again by becoming dominant when it came into contact with other cultures and learning from those cultures the ideas, art, and traditions that are valuable. If a stronger culture comes along and we can't absorb it, maybe we can join it and make some of our traditions live on as a new part of it.

Alright, imagine disease wipes out 90% of the people who practice your culture. While before, you might have been able to absorb, or significantly impact the new culture, you now do not have that ability. Good or strong as your culture may have been...you are reduced in capacity.

Then?

Alright, imagine disease wipes out 90% of the people who practice your culture. While before, you might have been able to absorb, or significantly impact the new culture, you now do not have that ability. Good or strong as your culture may have been...you are reduced in capacity.

Then?

Then you try as hard as you can to preserve and recover. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. You can but try.

Since when does "strong" imply "good"?

And since when is culture the only, or even primary, factor in the power of a society?

Culture is a tool to attain security, prosperity and progress toward commonly shared goals. A stronger tool is usually better.

If the new culture was better, I'd happily embrace it and consign mine to the dustbin.

Is your culture so bereft of worth? If so...why wouldn't you actively be seeking out other cultural practices that suit you better? Why wait for assimilation? Clearly, there are things about how you live that you value very much. There might be better ways of doing things...more advanced tools, etc...but that isn't culture. Writing with a pencil instead of charcoal, or writing on a laptop instead of paper...that isn't culture. What you write and why...that's the important part.

Become neo-Nazis? :rolleyes: Can't be the only option.

Culture is a tool to attain security, prosperity and progress toward commonly shared goals. A stronger tool is usually better.

Only your use of "strength" there suggested strength in conflict with other cultures.

The ability to dominate other cultures may be an indicator of cultural strength, but I don't see it why it is an indicator of cultural worth.

Only your use of "strength" there suggested strength in conflict with other cultures.

The ability to dominate other cultures may be an indicator of cultural strength, but I don't see it why it is an indicator of cultural worth.

Right, because it's saying, if the culture is overcome, it is inherently less worthy than the 'stronger' culture...do you believe that, DC?

Alright, imagine disease wipes out 90% of the people who practice your culture. While before, you might have been able to absorb, or significantly impact the new culture, you now do not have that ability. Good or strong as your culture may have been...you are reduced in capacity.

Then?

A disease in this day and age that can wipe out 90% of Americans would spread beyond our borders and wipe out greater than 90% of the rest of the world's population.


Anyway,whatever. Assuming your hypothetical situation does happen, 30 million Americans would still be around. So I don't think it really would threaten American culture. If it did, well, the Jews were able to keep aspects of their culture alive for centuries by assimilating slightly into the local culture and passing on their religion, language, art, history, and literature to their children. I guess I'd try to do that.

to me it all comes down to "are my people giving up (or morphing) my culture in favor of a new one or are is my culture being torn away from my people?"

the culture is not more important than the people in it.

so if my little english speaking clan were happy to adopt japanese language and culture and thrived by doing it, then so be it.

if my people were being forced into a culture that was bewildering to them, that they didnt understand or appreciate. if they were not making it in the new culture; if they were living in the slums because they could not or did not choose to adapt to the new culture, if they saw no future for themselves and their children in this new culture, i would fight to keep as much of my language and culture alive as possible so that they would keep their pride and hope alive.

If it did, well, the Jews were able to keep aspects of their culture alive for centuries by assimilating slightly into the local culture and passing on their religion, language, art, history, and literature to their children. I guess I'd try to do that.

And now that we're living with everyone else, we're assimilating very swiftly.

The religion may survive, barely, but most of the culture will not.

Only your use of "strength" there suggested strength in conflict with other cultures.

The ability to dominate other cultures may be an indicator of cultural strength, but I don't see it why it is an indicator of cultural worth.

Different cultures compete for land and resources. A strong culture can organize a more powerful military that can take those resources. Cultures can also compete for people. A culture that is strong in that it appeals to members of other cultures can siphon people away from the less appealing ones.

Often if a culture has a strong militaristic aspect coupled with an appealing sense of justice and liberty it can offer it's people greater security from external and internal threats, greater opportunities for wealth, and a sense that one is free to be himself and still be accepted in the community. Safety, prosperity, and liberty are good indicators of cultural worth in my opinion.

Right, because it's saying, if the culture is overcome, it is inherently less worthy than the 'stronger' culture...do you believe that, DC?

All other things being equal, yes. Now, you can have a little piece of land run by a people with a good culture, but they may be conquered by exceedingly large numbers of enemies. An example might be what would eventually happen to Israel if they didn't have nuclear weapons and the US backing them up if the whole middle east decided to bury them. But if you're dealing with roughly even populations, land masses, and resources, the better culture will usually win.

The people with the better culture would likely be more prosperous and productive and better organized, thus make better use of their resources. Free people are inventive people, so that would speed technological development as smart people will be rewarded with riches when they invent something. The better culture will progress fast enough to routinely defeat their neighbors.

And now that we're living with everyone else, we're assimilating very swiftly.

The religion may survive, barely, but most of the culture will not.

You survived for what, a thousand years without a homeland? You eventually, through blood and sweat gained a homeland and now in that place you can reestablish your culture. I don't think Jewish traditions are in danger of disappearing.

u r greifing mai culture

kkthxbai

Imagine you were part of a small, shrinking community. You are the last English speakers left in the world, and you a minority in your country, which has been claimed by another culture. The mainstream culture you are surrounded by is totally unlike yours, and there has been pressure on you for generations to give up your culture and assimilate. For a while, your people were forced to attend schools that in essence stripped you of your language, removed you from your families and prevented you from learning your customs from your relations and community. Your ceremonies were actively repressed, and your people were strictly controlled by legislation, limiting every aspect of your life, from education, to housing, to healthcare, to religion. Those of you struggling to hold onto these things face the difficulty of learning from a shrinking pool of your oldest people, and every time one of them dies, parts of your language and culture are irretrievably lost.

In this situation...what would you do? Would you fight to survive, to retain your language and culture? Or would you allow yourself to blend into the mainstream? Yours is the last generation that has a choice...

Assimilate in public. Maintain the language at home to the extent possible. Make a public show of trying to preserve the language so as to attract sympathy and support from the mainstream culture. And look for ways to turn your minority status into an advantage that you can use to exploit the mainstream culture. Like opening a casino ;)

people are starting to work on that here. we should look to the czechs for guidence.

Like Italians, re-enacting ancient Roman festivals?

Or the Irish drinking green beer and calling that a cultural aspect?

It's not real though.

Yeah, but I'm perfectly happy with doing just that right now, so I don't see why I should mind doing it in the situation you described. Current culture doesn't particularly interest me anyway, much more interested in the past. I suppose though that if I found my self in that situation and found parts of my culture that I'm not currently aware of that I liked that were not represented in this new culture, I would try and at least keep those aspects alive, if I was aware of them. Right now though only aspects I can really think of would be described as basic human rights like free speech, but that is hardly a unique trait, so frankly I can't think of anything I would be particularly concearned about that wasn't originally absorbed from another culture. Oh, and where do Italians perserve their culture by emulating the Romans?

In this situation...what would you do? Would you fight to survive, to retain your language and culture? Or would you allow yourself to blend into the mainstream? Yours is the last generation that has a choice...
The Irish speakers (Gaelgoirí) in my country were in the same situation. Like in Canada, the British invaded and attempted to eliminate the native culture and language of Ireland. Irish speakers are in an extreme minority now, but thanks to the efforts of past generations of Gaelgoirí, insterest in our native culture is increasing and beginning to flourish.

Frankly, culture is stupid.
No, it isn't - though I can see why an American would say so. ;)

Nordland is a guy who likes to rant about racial extinction - which is a very different thing.

I think it is more of an attempt to make white's picture how it would feel to be a member of such a group, such as the variouse(sp) Native American nations.
Don't say whites. White Irish people were as much the victims of white British people as Native Americans. It's not about race.

Yeah, and coming from an English speaker that was quite ironic. English is a hideous language - very unpleasant to the ear.
I've heard that it sounds like hissing to non-native speakers - is that true?

I don't particularly love my culture, and wouldn't necessarily mind adapting to someone else's (within certain limits), but I probably would feel regretful over the marginalization and eventual eradication of it.
If you're not willing to personally play a part in preserving your culture, don't be disappointed if it disappears.

Imagine you were part of a small, shrinking community. You are the last English speakers left in the world, and you a minority in your country, which has been claimed by another culture. The mainstream culture you are surrounded by is totally unlike yours, and there has been pressure on you for generations to give up your culture and assimilate. For a while, your people were forced to attend schools that in essence stripped you of your language, removed you from your families and prevented you from learning your customs from your relations and community. Your ceremonies were actively repressed, and your people were strictly controlled by legislation, limiting every aspect of your life, from education, to housing, to healthcare, to religion. Those of you struggling to hold onto these things face the difficulty of learning from a shrinking pool of your oldest people, and every time one of them dies, parts of your language and culture are irretrievably lost.

In this situation...what would you do? Would you fight to survive, to retain your language and culture? Or would you allow yourself to blend into the mainstream? Yours is the last generation that has a choice...


What year are we in? If space travel is possible, I'd set up a fund to raise enough money to buy and colonize another planet. It might take a wee bit long tho.

Plan B would be to settle in an isolated place on this filthy overrun Earth. Needless to say, I'd protect my culture...

I think I'd assimilate to the point where I could function in the new, "alien" culture, but I'd also try to hang on to the old culture as much as possible. A lot would depend on the attitude of the younger people. Would they share my desire to preserve the old culture, or would they say "Meh, who cares"? If the later, the likelyhood of preserving the culture is poor.

Shit really? Where are you at them? Coz I left school in 1984 in London, which means I started secondary school in umm 1979, and I just missed out on corporal punishment. heheh
Canada. Saskatchewan, specifically.

I moved to Alberta in 1988 (I was 13) and it didn't have corporal punishment, but Saskatchewan still did when I left. A spanking for younger children and a leather strap across the hand for older kids (anyone over 10).

If I was the last speaker of my native language, I would try my best to keep it alive and have at least tome parts survive... not sure how, but I would try. This does not mean to be totally out-of-the-mainstream, just so far that I am seen and so near that I am understood. It is a question of balance, it always is....

Is your culture so bereft of worth? If so...why wouldn't you actively be seeking out other cultural practices that suit you better? Why wait for assimilation? Clearly, there are things about how you live that you value very much. There might be better ways of doing things...more advanced tools, etc...but that isn't culture. Writing with a pencil instead of charcoal, or writing on a laptop instead of paper...that isn't culture. What you write and why...that's the important part.

Culture is just how people do shit. If there is a better way of doing shit then there is no point in sticking with the old. It has nothing to do with worth.

Which is why I don't behave like a riever, even though I'm descended from them.

In this situation...what would you do? Would you fight to survive, to retain your language and culture? Or would you allow yourself to blend into the mainstream? Yours is the last generation that has a choice...

Culture is not static. It is dynamic. If it is not great in itself so that your children don't take to it voluntarily, then probably it will fade and it is probably better off that way.


“I do not want my house to be walled in on all sides and my windows to be stuffed. I want the cultures of all the lands to be blown about my house as freely as possible. But I refuse to be blown off my feet by any.”

..
No culture can live if it attempts to be exclusive.

Imagine you were part of a small, shrinking community. You are the last English speakers left in the world, and you a minority in your country, which has been claimed by another culture. The mainstream culture you are surrounded by is totally unlike yours, and there has been pressure on you for generations to give up your culture and assimilate. For a while, your people were forced to attend schools that in essence stripped you of your language, removed you from your families and prevented you from learning your customs from your relations and community. Your ceremonies were actively repressed, and your people were strictly controlled by legislation, limiting every aspect of your life, from education, to housing, to healthcare, to religion. Those of you struggling to hold onto these things face the difficulty of learning from a shrinking pool of your oldest people, and every time one of them dies, parts of your language and culture are irretrievably lost.

In this situation...what would you do? Would you fight to survive, to retain your language and culture? Or would you allow yourself to blend into the mainstream? Yours is the last generation that has a choice...

I have never been in any way, shape, or form concerned with upholding or continuing tradition.

In fact, I have always hated tradition.

to me it all comes down to "are my people giving up (or morphing) my culture in favor of a new one or are is my culture being torn away from my people?"

the culture is not more important than the people in it.

so if my little english speaking clan were happy to adopt japanese language and culture and thrived by doing it, then so be it.

if my people were being forced into a culture that was bewildering to them, that they didnt understand or appreciate. if they were not making it in the new culture; if they were living in the slums because they could not or did not choose to adapt to the new culture, if they saw no future for themselves and their children in this new culture, i would fight to keep as much of my language and culture alive as possible so that they would keep their pride and hope alive.

You've brought up an important point. Cultures are living things...and change is not inherently bad, so long as that change is (mostly) chosen, and not forced.

That's a freaking utopia right there! (What? Don't blame me for your having picked a language whose extinction can't come soon enough...)

:eek:

For once I agree totally with him.

Assimilate in public. Maintain the language at home to the extent possible. Make a public show of trying to preserve the language so as to attract sympathy and support from the mainstream culture. And look for ways to turn your minority status into an advantage that you can use to exploit the mainstream culture. Like opening a casino ;)

Hahahahahahaaa....best answer yet!

In response to the OP, I would fight tooth and nail to keep my culture alive.

Culture is just how people do shit. What a lovely bit of prose, that... :D If there is a better way of doing shit then there is no point in sticking with the old. It has nothing to do with worth. And if you're simply taught, from day one that your culture is inferior, you'll buy into that just because?

Remember...culture is not technology...what you do with it might be a part of your culture...but you aren't choosing sticks and stones over playstations here. Well, you might be, but anyway :D

Culture is not static. It is dynamic. If it is not great in itself so that your children don't take to it voluntarily, then probably it will fade and it is probably better off that way.
Again...is that true, if the feeling on non-worth comes from outside, and is pushed on the young?

I have never been in any way, shape, or form concerned with upholding or continuing tradition.

In fact, I have always hated tradition.

You speak as though you live apart from your culture. You don't.

It's not just about tradition. It's about values too. You'd give yours up just because you were a minority?

Imagine you were part of a small, shrinking community. You are the last English speakers left in the world, and you a minority in your country, which has been claimed by another culture....*snip*

In this situation...what would you do? Would you fight to survive, to retain your language and culture? Or would you allow yourself to blend into the mainstream? Yours is the last generation that has a choice...

50 years later, we'll be all speaking Chinese.

Bye bye English.....

You speak as though you live apart from your culture. You don't.

It's not just about tradition. It's about values too. You'd give yours up just because you were a minority?

I agree with that. All peoples, I my view should have the right to self-determination and a cohesive society which practises their culture.

People make fun of this idea, but I personally find it very sad and oft angry to see my own culture begining to roll-over into whatever this thing today is.

In my view the American Indians, like all people, should have their own nation(s), and self-sustain, if they wish to maintain what's left of their culture. It is really the only way.

You speak as though you live apart from your culture. You don't.

It's not just about tradition. It's about values too.

And many others. Ways of viewing the world in general, ways of viewing society, of conceptualising personhood, relations and identity... THANK you for pointing that out. It annoys me when ignorant people claim that they have no culture, or that culture is simply "outdated" traditions.

Maybe I'll post more in this thread when I'm over the mind-numbingly depressing and ignorant comments of people advocating cultural extinction in any way.

In the meantime, the Indigenous San people ("Kalahari Bushmen") in Botswana have just had their traditional land rights recognised (linky (http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/news/world/20061213-Botswana-Bushmen.html)).

Again...is that true, if the feeling on non-worth comes from outside, and is pushed on the young?

Believe me, I can sympathize with you. I come from a colonised culture too. ;)

There were lot of "feeling of non-worth" pushed on many a practice of ours. While some were indeed "non-worth" and some were not. I just learned to stick to what makes sense to me...regardless of what the origin of that practice is European or Native....I don't feel like I am losing my culture...rather enriching it..:p

Imagine you were part of a small, shrinking community. You are the last English speakers left in the world, and you a minority in your country, which has been claimed by another culture. The mainstream culture you are surrounded by is totally unlike yours, and there has been pressure on you for generations to give up your culture and assimilate. For a while, your people were forced to attend schools that in essence stripped you of your language, removed you from your families and prevented you from learning your customs from your relations and community. Your ceremonies were actively repressed, and your people were strictly controlled by legislation, limiting every aspect of your life, from education, to housing, to healthcare, to religion. Those of you struggling to hold onto these things face the difficulty of learning from a shrinking pool of your oldest people, and every time one of them dies, parts of your language and culture are irretrievably lost.

In this situation...what would you do? Would you fight to survive, to retain your language and culture? Or would you allow yourself to blend into the mainstream? Yours is the last generation that has a choice...
I've never been in this situation, but it concerns me a lot because my country (USA) is a big offender in cultural destruction, and I want to understand the dynamics of cultural change, good and bad.

I would fight to keep my culture alive, but I would also try to define exactly what that should mean within the changing, broader cultural environment. Strict preservation of cultural forms could reduce your small minority to the level of a "living museum," which can be just as bad as having one's culture forcibly destroyed. You see this in the USA, in states like New Mexico, where there is a strong undercurrent of "the only good Indian is an Indian in costume, dancing for the tourists." You don't want to become something other than what you are, but at the same time, you don't want what you are to be a weapon the majority can use against you. I would want to be what I am, and be successful at it, with it, because of it, no matter what society I live in. If "cultural survival" is just about preserving certain external forms and styles, I think it is doomed to failure. If "cultural survival" is about people keeping alive the conscious connection to their ancestors, to the path of history and philosophies/beliefs that produced them and made them what they are, then I think it has a much greater chance of success.

You have to recognize that your own culture has already changed itself many times before. Look past the current hostile, imposed changes and see that your culture today is not what it was 100 years ago, or 500 years ago, or 1000 years ago. All our cultures have changed themselves again and again in response to a changing world. Surely, it can do it again without losing its identity. If what matters to the culture is more than just the forms of it, then change is a sign of its vitality, not its extinction. A few examples:

1) The Trobriand Islanders (Oceania) were in exactly the OP situation. Like other tribes in that area, their main, identifying cultural form was head hunting and related warfare. This was outlawed and stamped out by European colonialists (not surprisingly). But the wars and killings were intimately connected to their consciousness of who they were and how they got to be that way. Despite the violence, it was what held them together as a people. Without it, their culture fell apart, and the people suffered as their family structures and social support systems also fell apart. Many tribes today are extinct. But the Trobriand tribal elders, figuring out how to save their culture, were able to see what "Trobriander" meant beyond the act of head hunting, and so they survived by adopting a British cultural expression (the sport of cricket) and repurposing it to express Trobriand culture rather than British culture. They simply replaced real war with symbolic war and carried on what mattered -- the social dynamic of the group activity, not the specific activity itself. Cricket was introduced to make the Trobrianders more British -- to help in the destruction of their culture -- but the Trobrianders, in this case, literally beat the cultural invaders at their own game.

2) Japan. No one can say that the Japan of today is in any way like the Japan of 100 years ago, let alone the Japan of samurai and shoguns. But is it any less "Japanese"? I don't think so. There is a distinct and unique quality of cultural attitude, aesthic, and outlook that is unmistakeably "Japanese," and which holds true in all the manifestations that Japanese culture has taken. Japan perhaps has it a little easier because syncretism is an integral part of the culture, so the people have always been willing to adopt forms from others. But, like the Trobrianders, the key is that the Japanese adapt the forms to suit themselves. They do not adapt themselves to fit the forms. And they do not forget their past. They keep it alive by incorporating the old into the new. Sometimes, the mix seems a bit jarring, but not if you understand what it is about "Japanese-ness" that makes it make sense. There is much to be learned from the Japanese in this regard.

3) The Czechs, as Gorias pointed out. These people faced many generations of deliberate attempts (several different ones) to wipe out their culture, including the outlawing of their language, forced "Germanizing" of Slavic names -- Karlovy Vary became Karlsbad, for instance -- the banning of traditional clothing and even food (though how Czech food is different from German food, I have no idea, but anyway...) followed by the forced cultural destruction of Soviet domination. Today, you'd hardly know any of it happened. Czech culture is alive, thriving, modern and distinct. How did they manage, after nearly 300 years of being under such attack? By patience. By believing that they would outlive their oppressors. Every now and then, they got pissed off and there was an uprising which always got brutally crushed, but even that added to value to the idea of being Czech. If it's something worth dying for, then it's something worth living for, surely. Over the generations, Czech culture was fine-tuned into being about a set of values which were constantly honed and highlighted by the heroes who sacrificed themselves for them, and by the other kinds of heroes (like the modern culture hero in The Good Soldier Schwiek) who lived the values and succeeded by the values, by hook or crook or both. The only form which the Czechs worked to preserve was their language, and even that was more about survival as an act of resistance than about the language itself. Today, the Czech language is a symbol of all that those people have been through, all their suffering and all their successes. The fact that it is spoken by millions of people -- brought back from the brink of extinction -- seems to fill the Czechs with a sense of pride and happiness. Yes, the generations of resistance and underground culture did reshape the culture as a whole, but it did not make it anything but Czech.

So then, what is "cultural survival"? If it is just preservation, then I say it's not worth the effort. If it is not allowing others to define you, but rather, taking control of your own cultural changes and adaptations, so that what matters to you, about you, will thrive in a new environment, then I say its worth almost any sacrifice.

Imagine you were part of a small, shrinking community. You are the last English speakers left in the world, and you a minority in your country, which has been claimed by another culture. The mainstream culture you are surrounded by is totally unlike yours, and there has been pressure on you for generations to give up your culture and assimilate. For a while, your people were forced to attend schools that in essence stripped you of your language, removed you from your families and prevented you from learning your customs from your relations and community. Your ceremonies were actively repressed, and your people were strictly controlled by legislation, limiting every aspect of your life, from education, to housing, to healthcare, to religion. Those of you struggling to hold onto these things face the difficulty of learning from a shrinking pool of your oldest people, and every time one of them dies, parts of your language and culture are irretrievably lost.

Aside from the bit about English speaking, that pretty much already describes my "culture."

My values are in the extreme minority in my country. People with my beliefs are routinely discriminated against, reviled, denied legal equality, and compelled to obey the moral codes of majority groups in my society (even though this is nominally illegal in my country). People with my beliefs have been denied employment, housing, health care, and even legal protection because of their beliefs.

Funny thing is, my "culture" isn't shrinking at all. I couldn't tell you why, in all honesty, except for my personal opinion that my belief structure rocks and therefore will never die. ;)


In this situation...what would you do? Would you fight to survive, to retain your language and culture? Or would you allow yourself to blend into the mainstream? Yours is the last generation that has a choice...
I don't think I've ever been accused of trying to blend in with the mainstream. However, I'm also usually not in the position of needing to "fight to survive." It can be hard to remain true to my beliefs in the face of such continual pressure to conform, but never so much so that I seriously consider giving them up.

I'm not entirely certain. I think my culture has it easier because part of it is that it does assimilate, but not all cultures have the ability to assimilate as much as another culture demands, even if the assimilation was wanted.

Just out of curiousity, (if anyone knows) how is Nunavut working out? Are the Inuit (and others) living someone autonomously, or is imposition of a different sort happening?

If you're not willing to personally play a part in preserving your culture, don't be disappointed if it disappears.I don't think that's what was being said. If the culture disappears because people like another culture better, that's different than if the culture disappears because another culture was violently imposed upon it.

Just out of curiousity, (if anyone knows) how is Nunavut working out? Are the Inuit (and others) living someone autonomously, or is imposition of a different sort happening?
Nunavut is still has a majority Inuit population. The government conducts business in their language, their legal system is becoming more and more blended with traditional legal beliefs, and language retention is in the 90% range.

Fuck no, what's the point? It's just culture, not like it's anything important. It changes over time as it comes into contact with other cultures, or even just as it evolves on its own, trying to preserve culture is silliness. Adopt the best of what other folks have to offer, shed the worthless bits of your own. Cultural conservatism only leads to stagnation and inefficiency. Embrace change, it's the only way to keep on rocking.

Imagine you were part of a small, shrinking community. You are the last English speakers left in the world, and you a minority in your country, which has been claimed by another culture. The mainstream culture you are surrounded by is totally unlike yours, and there has been pressure on you for generations to give up your culture and assimilate. For a while, your people were forced to attend schools that in essence stripped you of your language, removed you from your families and prevented you from learning your customs from your relations and community. Your ceremonies were actively repressed, and your people were strictly controlled by legislation, limiting every aspect of your life, from education, to housing, to healthcare, to religion. Those of you struggling to hold onto these things face the difficulty of learning from a shrinking pool of your oldest people, and every time one of them dies, parts of your language and culture are irretrievably lost.

In this situation...what would you do? Would you fight to survive, to retain your language and culture? Or would you allow yourself to blend into the mainstream? Yours is the last generation that has a choice...

Blend in but keep aspects of my culture alive. keep the language going while they learn the dominant one. Keep rituals and traditions alive but don't force them on others.

Nunavut is still has a majority Inuit population. The government conducts business in their language, their legal system is becoming more and more blended with traditional legal beliefs, and language retention is in the 90% range.

Do you see this as a model for sustaining other aboriginal communities across Canada?

I think it could work in conjunction with a more sovereign reserve system, but I don't see how it could be applied to urban natives.

Do you feel that urban natives are more at risk of cultural isolation than those dwelling on reserve?

Aside from the bit about English speaking, that pretty much already describes my "culture."

My values are in the extreme minority in my country. People with my beliefs are routinely discriminated against, reviled, denied legal equality, and compelled to obey the moral codes of majority groups in my society (even though this is nominally illegal in my country). People with my beliefs have been denied employment, housing, health care, and even legal protection because of their beliefs.


what the hell are you talking about? what kind of beiefs you have that make people discriminate against you?

Nunavut is still has a majority Inuit population. The government conducts business in their language, their legal system is becoming more and more blended with traditional legal beliefs, and language retention is in the 90% range.

so what are you?

How would that help? You are the last...THIS is your homeland. Moving would only hasten your cultural demise.

If he's the last, doesn't "the homeland" sorta follow him around?

meh, Dutch culture wont die out, it will only be changed by the influence of other individuals. Our language stands too strong, and going too far in history wont make you too proud of "our" culture.

If he's the last, doesn't "the homeland" sorta follow him around?

I'd agree, if I'm the last, then my homeland happens to be whereever I happen to be.

In this situation...what would you do? Would you fight to survive, to retain your language and culture? Or would you allow yourself to blend into the mainstream?

That depends on the culture around me. If I considered it superior (and it may be if it was doing so well) then I would simply allow myself to be assimilated into it. If I disliked it I would attempt to record and archive as much of the knowledge available to me, if only for sentimental reasons.

That's a freaking utopia right there! (What? Don't blame me for your having picked a language whose extinction can't come soon enough...)
Vous êtes fou monsieur!! :p

It is not that hard to imagine. It is what happened to one of the greatest empires that people have ever known, the Roman empire. People don't speak Latin anymore.

Empires rise and fall. People change, english will eventually be one of the roots of a new language which will sweep the world like latin. Then it will die out.

It is not that hard to imagine. It is what happened to one of the greatest empires that people have ever known, the Roman empire. People don't speak Latin anymore.

to me romans sucked.

to me romans sucked.

I laugh. They couldn't be bothered conquering your bog-ridden island.

I laugh. They couldn't be bothered conquering your bog-ridden island.

Yeah, what could they have done with an island full of drunks who were probably starving because the potato hadn't been invented yet?

You speak as though you live apart from your culture. You don't.

It's not just about tradition. It's about values too. You'd give yours up just because you were a minority?
I find very few people who share my values.

I am an individual. I would prefer to be treated like one, rather than as part of a group.

You survived for what, a thousand years without a homeland?

We managed about eighteen hundred, actually. But the present situation is pretty much unprecedented.

You eventually, through blood and sweat gained a homeland and now in that place you can reestablish your culture.

Can. Won't.

If you're not willing to personally play a part in preserving your culture, don't be disappointed if it disappears.

It's simply a cost-benefit analysis. I care; I just don't care enough to sacrifice much convenience in the attempt. And I'm certainly not going to tell other members that they shouldn't intermarry or assimilate, or tell non-members that they shouldn't move here, for the sake of preserving it.

I laugh. They couldn't be bothered conquering your bog-ridden island.

Yeah, what could they have done with an island full of drunks who were probably starving because the potato hadn't been invented yet?

i consider this an unnessacry flame attack.

romans did come over to attack. but rarely. but thats not what i ment. i'm against the idea of invading empires. also historical roman writers lied alot and only become a recent fact that some things people 'know' as a fact isnt true.

i consider this an unnessacry flame attack.

romans did come over to attack. but rarely. but thats not what i ment. i'm against the idea of invading empires. also historical roman writers lied alot and only become a recent fact that some things people 'know' as a fact isnt true.

Just a little hot air, not quite a flame.

Which Roman writers lied and about what? Can you please provide an example, being a history buff, I would like to know.

Just a little hot air, not quite a flame.

Which Roman writers lied and about what? Can you please provide an example, being a history buff, I would like to know.

on a topic i've studied and which cant source via internet.
alot of books you read about the pagan celts tell you that they got involved with human sacrifice. it pretty much considered a fact. but when asked people about there sources they say they got it from. that book may say they got it also from another book. this goes in a circle until you find on the origional source. roman historians.
the romans were in conflict with many of the celtic tribes at time and claimed they committed various acts. although there has been no evidence for such acts, like human sacrifice.
archealogical evidence sugest that did not infact have human sacrifice in a religous sense. however most did have a death penalty system, like many current countries do now.
i'm getting to much into detail, but the irish pagan punishments looked kind of funny.

so as regards to what romans said. it means to be an earlier form of propaganda. like nazis claim jews being evil and people beived them, at the time it was considered common knowledge.
other exampels of romans lying were claims that they invented things that they stole from conquered people, like the etruscans. but i dont know much about that.

on a topic i've studied and which cant source via internet.
alot of books you read about the pagan celts tell you that they got involved with human sacrifice. it pretty much considered a fact. but when asked people about there sources they say they got it from. that book may say they got it also from another book. this goes in a circle until you find on the origional source. roman historians.
the romans were in conflict with many of the celtic tribes at time and claimed they committed various acts. although there has been no evidence for such acts, like human sacrifice.
archealogical evidence sugest that did not infact have human sacrifice in a religous sense. however most did have a death penalty system, like many current countries do now.
i'm getting to much into detail, but the irish pagan punishments looked kind of funny.

so as regards to what romans said. it means to be an earlier form of propaganda. like nazis claim jews being evil and people beived them, at the time it was considered common knowledge.
other exampels of romans lying were claims that they invented things that they stole from conquered people, like the etruscans. but i dont know much about that.

That's very inconvenient, not being able to find any sources on the Net. Certainly, since the ancient Celts left no written histories, we are seeing them primarily through Roman (enemy) eyes. And it is true that scholars do now discount some of the stories, as in Caesar, about human sacrifice among the Gauls. However, there is archaeological evidence from the British Isles for just that (Ronald Hutton, The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles: Their Nature and Legacy, ISBN 0-631-18946-7, page 90). Burials have been found where the bodies showed unmistakable signs of having been killed in a ritual manner, such as for the foundation of a building or in the grave of an older man.

I won't say the Romans were perfect, or above appropriating things from conquered people. In fact, there are one or two repotred instances, in Roman writers, of them practicing human sacrifice. I would still ask for evidence, however. What did they "steal" from the Etruscans, and claim to have invented? These threads get hijacked and sent off on tangents all the time, don't be bashful.

It's not just about tradition. It's about values too. You'd give yours up just because you were a minority?

No, but I wouldn't keep them simply because I am a minority, either.

I understand the struggle to keep one's values and traditions alive if they have meaning in your life, but keeping them alive simply because they are facing extinction is pointless.