NationStates Jolt Archive

The title rather sums it up; why do you belive in God?

Though I personaly don't delive in God a great number of people do. I ask you, a theist reader, why do you belive in God?

Thankyou for your time.

I think theres something, out there...

I think theres something, out there...

On the wing?

I think theres something, out there...Check the windows are locked. I'll go get the gun.

On the wing?

:eek: Gremlins!

On the wing?

Try to tell a stewardess that today and they end up hog tying you and sending you to gitmo!

I believe that my ability to perceive such a thing as god, if it exists, is too limited for me to even remotely comprehend it. As such, I refuse to take a position.

The title rather sums it up; why do you belive in God?

Though I personaly don't delive in God a great number of people do. I ask you, a theist reader, why do you belive in God?

Thankyou for your time.
This is a great question. I don't believe either, and furthermore I think it's probably impossible to believe if you're rational.

So I live thos question, because I want to find a purely rational believer.

I think theres something, out there...

On the wing?

Or maybe (http://www.westsidestory.com/site/level2/lyrics/something.html) ...

This is a great question. I don't believe either, and furthermore I think it's probably impossible to believe if you're rational.

So I live thos question, because I want to find a purely rational believer.

define rational

On the wing?

No, out there, as in there there....

Check the windows are locked. I'll go get the gun.

Pffft! You and your guns! :rolleyes:

My belief in God tends to be conditional.

Most of the time, like when answering internet polls, I default to not-believing in God at all. Not exactly believing there is No Higher Power, At All, Period - but not believing in the Abrahamic God? Sure. Or any other Named Deity. Why would I believe in any of them, I ask myself.

But of course there are times when a personal deity seems to make itself known to me. We've all had those times. Coincidences. Boosts of luck. Moments of true beauty. Then a god seems more plausible.

But what about the times when you're driving along, and you see a dead baby rotting by the side of the road?

To me, when people can do that, AND still believe in an all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing God, that scares me. It should amaze me. I should be all, "Wow, that's a deep faith. I respect that." But I'm not. It concerns and worries me.

The inward working of the Holy Spirit leads me to accept the evidence that supports Christianity.

:eek: Gremlins!

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a196/RebelWithoutASauce/twilightzonenightmareshatnerisabsur.jpg

My belief in God tends to be conditional.

Most of the time, like when answering internet polls, I default to not-believing in God at all. Not exactly believing there is No Higher Power, At All, Period - but not believing in the Abrahamic God? Sure. Or any other Named Deity. Why would I believe in any of them, I ask myself.

But of course there are times when a personal deity seems to make itself known to me. We've all had those times. Coincidences. Boosts of luck. Moments of true beauty. Then a god seems more plausible.

But what about the times when you're driving along, and you see a dead baby rotting by the side of the road?

To me, when people can do that, AND still believe in an all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing God, that scares me. It should amaze me. I should be all, "Wow, that's a deep faith. I respect that." But I'm not. It concerns and worries me.
God's not about the temporal life we have around here, at least not in the physical sense. imo.

God's not about the temporal life we have around here, at least not in the physical sense. imo.

When I think on God, I feel that this is a cornerstone of what would have to define God. The understanding that God is spiritual, beyond our current existence, and uninvolved in the actual procession of events.

The title rather sums it up; why do you belive in God?

Though I personaly don't delive in God a great number of people do. I ask you, a theist reader, why do you belive in God?

Thankyou for your time.

The experiences I have had that have led me to believe in God are to personal for me to want to share them here. But I can say with absolute certainty that there is a God, and that he loves us more than we can understand.

Define rational.

To me rational means a reasoning process that evaluates the evidence provided in a logical way. Occam's razor may come in there somewhere.

The title rather sums it up; why do you belive in God?

Because when I pinch myself it hurts. That means I am real.

Because when I pinch myself it hurts. That means I am real.

If you pinched yourself and it didn't hurt, would you conclude you are not real?

Cuz maybe you just came down with one of those nerve disorders.

Or maybe you were never real to begin with.

The inward working of the Holy Spirit leads me to accept the evidence that supports Christianity.

I believe because the evidence for Christianity is like a resounding bell. The arguments may be perfect, but so are all arguments for religions, but they do not prevent the bell from ringing true.
I know no non-believer will accept this as a valid reason, but it just feels right.
Yes, there are many bad things going on in the world today, but there are also people who, driven by belief in one or more gods, do remarkable things, and, no matter how hard the atheist tries, he will always struggle to explain many of them away.

When I think on God, I feel that this is a cornerstone of what would have to define God. The understanding that God is spiritual, beyond our current existence, and uninvolved in the actual procession of events.
people try to put God in a box and it's just impossible. They say "if God loved you he wouldn't let you die".......how do you know that? If God is all knowing and you are not then how do you come up thinking you know something that God does not?




To me rational means a reasoning process that evaluates the evidence provided in a logical way. Occam's razor may come in there somewhere.

God is illogical. I can't apply logic to Him for that reason.

If you pinched yourself and it didn't hurt, would you conclude you are not real?

Cuz maybe you just came down with one of those nerve disorders.

Or maybe you were never real to begin with.

Real is a very malleable term to Buddhists.

When I think on God, I feel that this is a cornerstone of what would have to define God. The understanding that God is spiritual, beyond our current existence, and uninvolved in the actual procession of events.

Then why worship? Why even consider it? If it's completely unrelated to you in the most extreme sense in that it doesn't even care what happens to any of us, one way or the other, then why would we worship it?

Personally I like to think theologically on the assumption that god has a very personal role in everyone's life and governs the world around us. This line of thinking lead me to believe that polytheism might be onto something, and that god may have split himself infinitely to govern and even create parts of the universe. Lesser gods, parts of god that are possibly in charge of things like anger and war or love and biscuits are much more worth worshipping or considering than a deadbeat dad whose eyes are turned until we die.

If you pinched yourself and it didn't hurt, would you conclude you are not real?

No, just that I would be a more powerful god.

Or maybe you were never real to begin with.
Be silent, figment of my imagination.

Then why worship? Why even consider it? If it's completely unrelated to you in the most extreme sense in that it doesn't even care what happens to any of us, one way or the other, then why would we worship it?


What I'd argue is that God is uninvolved in temporal events, he doesn't control them directly, but is fundamentally involved in personal, spiritual events. Things that are intangible, immeasurable. That he is deeply involved in perceiving the facets of our lives, and that he cares deeply. But, that because of his care, he would rather we be free, permitted to do whatever we would want, even if that drives us away from him.

I believe because the evidence for Christianity is like a resounding bell. The arguments may be perfect, but so are all arguments for religions, but they do not prevent the bell from ringing true.
I know no non-believer will accept this as a valid reason, but it just feels right.
Yes, there are many bad things going on in the world today, but there are also people who, driven by belief in one or more gods, do remarkable things, and, no matter how hard the atheist tries, he will always struggle to explain many of them away.

Why did you quote me? Are you agreeing, disagreeing, expounding upon? What?

people try to put God in a box and it's just impossible.

I have him in a box, in my closet, and I will not let him out.

They say "if God loved you he wouldn't let you die".......how do you know that? If God is all knowing and you are not then how do you come up thinking you know something that God does not?

Well, it tends to follow that if you cause, or through inaction allow someone, to die, you're not being very loving.

And it doesn't follow that having more knowledge or intelligence means you get to kill those who do not, and justify it by some vague reference to a Really Good Idea or a Plan That Is Just Incomprehensible To You Simpletons. Morally that just doesn't work.

God is illogical. I can't apply logic to Him for that reason.

How do you know he's illogical? After all, God is all-knowing and you are not. ;)

I believe that God is a mind. Within that mind lies a universe. Our universe. Within that universe, our galaxy, our world, our lives are a thought. Maybe even the echo of a thought. I suppose my faith comes from a very simple question that physics asks, and has but one answer: If matter and energy within our universe is always conserved, and derived from a single source, where did that source come from?

There's only one thing we know of that can create matter and energy from nothing, in defiance of all the laws that govern our universe: Our minds. Do we each have a universe inside our minds also? Is this how we are 'in God's image'? When we die, does our perception turn inward? Are our personal heavens or hells nothing more than the universes we've created for ourselves?

Is there anything more yummy than lemon chocolate chip muffins? :)

I have him in a box, in my closet, and I will not let him out.



Well, it tends to follow that if you cause, or through inaction allow someone, to die, you're not being very loving.

And it doesn't follow that having more knowledge or intelligence means you get to kill those who do not, and justify it by some vague reference to a Really Good Idea or a Plan That Is Just Incomprehensible To You Simpletons. Morally that just doesn't work.
according to your understanding of life in general dying is a "bad thing"

Your morality and God's are potentially two very different things.


How do you know he's illogical? After all, God is all-knowing and you are not. ;)
He is illogical by virtue of the fact that logic is based on my understanding of this world, He is not of this world and I can not understand Him so he is illogical because I can not apply logic to Him.

Is there anything more yummy than lemon chocolate chip muffins? :)

Yes. But it is all mine.

I believe because the evidence for Christianity is like a resounding bell. The arguments may be perfect, but so are all arguments for religions, but they do not prevent the bell from ringing true.
I know no non-believer will accept this as a valid reason, but it just feels right.
Yes, there are many bad things going on in the world today, but there are also people who, driven by belief in one or more gods, do remarkable things, and, no matter how hard the atheist tries, he will always struggle to explain many of them away.

"It just feels right" is a perfectly acceptable answer. It's a much better answer than "the Bible tells me so." And I, your friendly neighborhood atheist, do not worry myself trying to explain every remarkable thing inspired people do. I know there's an explanation out there that doesn't involve direct intervention by someone's Imaginary Friend in the Sky. It may just be someone inspired by believing in the Imaginary Friend in the Sky.

A comprehended god is no god.

I was going to write and explain, but I don't care enough to argue with you people. maybe later.

Yes. But it is all mine.

Or so you'd like to think. ;)

He is illogical by virtue of the fact that logic is based on my understanding of this world, He is not of this world and I can not understand Him so he is illogical because I can not apply logic to Him.

You consdider God transcendent?

define rational
Based in reason. And reason is logical.

And I don't think you would need Occam's Razor. It just tells you which theory to test first - not which is more persuasive.

according to your understanding of life in general dying is a "bad thing"

Your morality and God's are potentially two very different things.

Heh. Okay. So, according to my homicide victims' understanding of life in general, dying is a "bad thing."

But their morality and mine are potentially two very different things.


He is illogical by virtue of the fact that logic is based on my understanding of this world, He is not of this world and I can not understand Him so he is illogical because I can not apply logic to Him.

Maybe your understanding of logic is simply weak and perhaps your understnading (or lack thereof) of God is too. After all, God may well be of "this world," presumably meaning this universe. Maybe God is more logical than you can understand, not less.

What I'd argue is that God is uninvolved in temporal events, he doesn't control them directly, but is fundamentally involved in personal, spiritual events. Things that are intangible, immeasurable. That he is deeply involved in perceiving the facets of our lives, and that he cares deeply. But, that because of his care, he would rather we be free, permitted to do whatever we would want, even if that drives us away from him.

Away from him and into an eternal furnace. Right. That's the thinking of a retarded child - "Lilly wants to move dat way so I'll let her move dat way even do she gets hit by a druck."

"But Szanth, you silly bastard, god warns us against doing things like running into trucks!"

Not very effectively. It's like he's trying just hard enough to where he can say he tried without being completely blamed for when his lack of effort causes countless souls to burn in hell for eternity.

Simply put, god knows we don't know shit. He knows we can't take anything at face value, and he knows there are fakes out there. He knows that we can't ever be sure about anything in this world, and he knows how silly it sounds to just believe and let faith guide you even when logic (the strongest and most useful human tool he's ever given us) tells us not to. Knowing all these things, and knowing how difficult our situation is, I don't believe there's a hell. I can't wrap my mind around god beind daft enough to punish us for not being sure or being mislead while he's not trying his damndest to guide us in his direction - and I'm not talking about having people write a book in his name or come down a mountain with tablets, no, I mean that he - himself - has never talked to us, has never shown himself to us, has never officially made his will known without a shadow of a doubt or with any room for interpretation that might lead down the wrong path. He's never done any of this, so my only logical conclusion is that he knows not to punish us.

Or so you'd like to think. ;)

And as long as I do not know any better, it is absolute truth.

The title rather sums it up; why do you belive in God?

Though I personaly don't delive in God a great number of people do. I ask you, a theist reader, why do you belive in God?

Thankyou for your time.

There are three basic laws that govern the everything physical:

everything is something
something creates everything
nothing is nothing

#2 proves God.

you might say "oh the universe was created in the big bang"

Well, mr. i graduated 3rd grade science, what created the pea sized ball of matter and energy which exploded?

Answer: God

Nothing can just...exist...nothing can just...be. everything that is something (which is everything as #1 says) must be placed into existence in its current state by somethign which came before it.

#2 proves God.

Actually it proves the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

everything is something
something creates everything
nothing is nothing

Like your god I was not created.
Does that make your god and me nothing ?

There are three basic laws that govern the everything physical:

everything is something
something creates everything
nothing is nothing

#2 proves God.

you might say "oh the universe was created in the big bang"

Well, mr. i graduated 3rd grade science, what created the pea sized ball of matter and energy which exploded?

Answer: God

Nothing can just...exist...nothing can just...be. everything that is something (which is everything as #1 says) must be placed into existence in its current state by somethign which came before it.

Ah. first cause theory. you should be carefull messing arround with recursion. You'll get a stack overflow.

As for the 3rd grade science. I assume that is quite low down in your education system. However I will resist the urge to say something nasty.

How about the universe came into existance due to enthropy. Something is more chaotic than nothing so the universe just happened spontaneously.
(I realise this is complete crap. I just like it.)

I have come to believe that a Power greater than myself can restore me to sanity, and I choose to call that Higher Power 'God'.

I don't worry too much about the specifics of my Higher Power, beyond that my HP is kind, loving, and greater than myself. Whether or not my HP created the Universe, has a flowing white beard, or whatever isn't important to me (any more). Through prayer and meditation I'm coming to understand what my HP's will for me is, and know that my HP is giving me the power to carry it out - if I choose to receive it and apply it.

But that's my concept of a Higher Power, and as long as your concept is working for you, then that is all that matters.

Yeah, nobody ever answers this: Where did god come from, and what was he doing before he created the universe?

Yeah, nobody ever answers this: Where did god come from, and what was he doing before he created the universe?

God's always been there. St Thomas Aquinas says so; It must be true.

God's always been there. St Thmas Aquinas says so; It must be true.

We have no concept of "always" - people have even gone so far as to say god's perception of a "day" is what we consider eons of time passing by.

Also while I'm at it: Why'd it take god longer than a second to create the universe? It's not like he's your average 9-5 C.O.W. - he's the fucking almighty. He has INFINITE power, which - no matter how large or complex the universe is - is more than enough ability to create the universe in a second, probably less if he wanted it to be done that way. I've never understood this.

everything is something
something creates everything
nothing is nothing

#2 proves God.
Assuming #2 is true, which is by no means certain.

You're reasoning by analogy. Just because everything you observe was created by something doesn't make it a necessary characteristic of matter.

You consdider God transcendent?
not particularly.
Heh. Okay. So, according to my homicide victims' understanding of life in general, dying is a "bad thing."

But their morality and mine are potentially two very different things.
and?



Maybe your understanding of logic is simply weak and perhaps your understnading (or lack thereof) of God is too. After all, God may well be of "this world," presumably meaning this universe. Maybe God is more logical than you can understand, not less.

My understanding of logic is fine. God exists outside of logic.

I can't believe in a god that is stupid enough to allow us humans "free will" so that we can prove our love for him by using our free will only for good. Then that same god stands by and watches humanity spend most of human existance bashing 7 bells of crap out of each other. Hey god! If we haven't got it by now - just how long do you think it's going to take?

I could believe & respect a god who would at least have the decency to let himself be known and tell us that he's really just been having a laugh to pass the time of day.:fluffle: :fluffle:

#2 proves God

Even if that were true, which is certainly up for debate, that doesn't necessitate the Christian understanding of God. This reasoning alone doesn't explain why you'd pick whatever religion you pick.

not particularly.

and?





My understanding of logic is fine. God exists outside of logic.

"and?", because your understanding of living is different from someone else's doesn't give you a right to say whether or not theirs is correct, which is why the idea that god is infinitely out of our reach of comprehension and relativity and yet we should worship him is a very silly idea. If he's so different from us, then he can't be compared, and he can't be said to be better, and is therefore unworthy of worship.

Even if that were true, which is certainly up for debate, that doesn't necessitate the Christian understanding of God. This reasoning alone doesn't explain why you'd pick whatever religion you pick.

Yeah I was confused when Lunatic Goofballs told the story of why he's a christian - apparently there was a seatbelt-related miracle that convinced him that god became involved in his decision and saved his life, but I never got an answer as to how he knows which god, which church, which faith was the one that saved him.

I believe in the one true God for a few reasons.

1. Nothing, even the smallest matter, can be created without a creator(God).

2. Just looking at humans, one can tell we are different and special from every living thing on the planet.

3. Mohammed(pbuh) and his followers wouldn't have risked their lives and become enemies of the Arab world if God weren't real.

4. The miracles of the Qur'an such as, but not limited to, the earth not being flat, the fact it is said Allah created us in stages(which supports evolution), and that Allah created the 7 heavens which many scientists believe are different dimensions that could have lead to the creation of this universe.

5. The way of life that is Islam seems to make perfect sense, and I would not be complete without it. The not gambling, not drinking, not worrying about wealth, the relationship with women, giving to and helping the poor. I could go on and on but everything Allah says we should do makes perfect sense, so even if Allah isnt real(which isn't true) I would still live my life as a Muslim for it is the only way I can be complete.

"and?", because your understanding of living is different from someone else's doesn't give you a right to say whether or not theirs is correct, which is why the idea that god is infinitely out of our reach of comprehension and relativity and yet we should worship him is a very silly idea. If he's so different from us, then he can't be compared, and he can't be said to be better, and is therefore unworthy of worship.

interesting idea, I guess.

[QUOTE=Soviestan;12070098]I believe in the one true God for a few reasons.

*snp*

2. Just looking at humans, one can tell we are different and special from every living thing on the planet.

3. Mohammed(pbuh) and his followers wouldn't have risked their lives and become enemies of the Arab world if God weren't real.

*snip*

[QUOTE]

To avoid emmbarasing myself I'll tackle the points I fell Most able to tackle.

2) I look at humans and see how remarkably similar they are to most life on earth.

3)People have risked their lives for numerous reasons. The fact that people risked their lives only shows me that they belived not that what the belived in was real.

I believe in the one true God for a few reasons.

1. Nothing, even the smallest matter, can be created without a creator(God).

2. Just looking at humans, one can tell we are different and special from every living thing on the planet.

3. Mohammed(pbuh) and his followers wouldn't have risked their lives and become enemies of the Arab world if God weren't real.

4. The miracles of the Qur'an such as, but not limited to, the earth not being flat, the fact it is said Allah created us in stages(which supports evolution), and that Allah created the 7 heavens which many scientists believe are different dimensions that could have lead to the creation of this universe.

5. The way of life that is Islam seems to make perfect sense, and I would not be complete without it. The not gambling, not drinking, not worrying about wealth, the relationship with women, giving to and helping the poor. I could go on and on but everything Allah says we should do makes perfect sense, so even if Allah isnt real(which isn't true) I would still live my life as a Muslim for it is the only way I can be complete.

1. Molecules in space appear and disappear constantly, ceasing to exist and existing in the same second. Assuming you're right, though, who created god and what was he doing before the universe was created?

2. We're not that special. We're able to build things and do math, but when it comes down to it I think the dolphins have life pretty much down.

3. Crazy people do crazy things for crazy reasons. I'm not saying he's crazy, but there's an army of people in New York that would and probably have pissed on a passerby while using the excuse that god told them to do it.

4. There are actually a theoretical 11 dimensions, if I'm not wrong. Only 3 or so of which we can actually do anything with, mathmatically and theoretically. Allah created us in stages, why? Does the Quran ever explain why he didn't just get everything rolling with us being born with our current intellect instead of going through stages of evolution?

5. Those are all qualities of essentially good people - you don't have to pray in the direction of Mecca five times a day to have any of those things.

Yeah I was confused when Lunatic Goofballs told the story of why he's a christian - apparently there was a seatbelt-related miracle that convinced him that god became involved in his decision and saved his life, but I never got an answer as to how he knows which god, which church, which faith was the one that saved him.

I've never understood that either. I've heard a lot of the "I felt a presence" or "I survived something and thus logically, I'm a member of the United American Free Will Baptist Church." There's a step missing between the two.

Yeah I was confused when Lunatic Goofballs told the story of why he's a christian - apparently there was a seatbelt-related miracle that convinced him that god became involved in his decision and saved his life, but I never got an answer as to how he knows which god, which church, which faith was the one that saved him.

Well, I explained my rationality for belief in God. And as your memory serves, I explained my personal connection with God, but you're right; I never explained my choice of christianity.

It's pretty simple really: I believe in Christ. More specifically, His message rings of truth to me. Do I believe Christ was the son of God, an aspect of the Trinity? I do. But I recognize that my choice to believe that is personal. I further recognize that it really doesn't matter. Whether Christ was God, a great man sent by God, or just a great man doesn't really matter. Because I believe in the message He sent to mankind through the life He led. In my mind, that's enough.

People overcomplicate faith. They dress it up in rules and traditions and patriarchal figures and turn it into religion. That annoys the hell out of me, because Christ hated that kind of shit.

My faith is very simple: I believe that God created the Universe, and we are His children because we can create our own. I believe that Jesus Christ was a great man sent by God to teach us how to make the most of our gift. That's it.

Where did god come from? Thats a good question, actually a damned good question. I can't name anyone with an answer to that question, except perhaps god himself. I will admit that I grew up in the bible belt and have went to church most of my childhood life. I have a period of questioning, but i read the but I read the bible, and as much as some people claim it contradicts itself, it makes a lot of sense to me. I won't tell anyone how to live their life, only really old religious people do that. Even if i'm wrong, even if we're wrong, is it wrong to believe in god? I could argue with someone all day(and have) but the simple fact is I believe because its what i've known all my life.. I've been to different churches and seen a lot of odd things... But i believe all the same.

God doesn't make wars, religion does that.

1. Molecules in space appear and disappear constantly, ceasing to exist and existing in the same second.

Not molecules, virtual particles. they only become real on the event horizon of a black hole. see Hawking radiation.

Because I believe in the message He sent to mankind through the life He led. In my mind, that's enough.

Query: is it the story of his life or the fact of his life that matters to you ?
Because very good cases can be made for him being an amalgam of several mythical figures instead of an actual person.

Query: is it the story of his life or the fact of his life that matters to you ?
Because very good cases can be made for him being an amalgam of several mythical figures instead of an actual person.

I completely agree with LG - whoever Jesus was, whatever form his actual humanity took, he was a decent guy with a message everyone could do for a look at. I can't say I'm a christian just because I believe Christ had the right idea, because then I'd get tangled in all that dogma and church stuff that comes along with the word.

EDIT: Oh and as for the possibility of Jesus just being a metaphor a la Shakespeare (being a collection of stories attributed to one imaginary person), I think Odd Thomas is right up there on par with Jesus, and if there were no Jesus, I'd use Odd Thomas instead, and I know Odd Thomas is a fictional character.

There's only one thing we know of that can create matter and energy from nothing, in defiance of all the laws that govern our universe: Our minds. Do we each have a universe inside our minds also? Is this how we are 'in God's image'? When we die, does our perception turn inward? Are our personal heavens or hells nothing more than the universes we've created for ourselves?

Wait, how do our minds create matter and energy from nothing? I'm pretty sure our minds are made of cells much like the rest of our bodies. These cells use glucose to make ATP which fuels cellular processes including memory, imagination and so forth.

Because it feels rightThis reason is as good as any, but it seems fairly weak. If someone came up to me and said that i'd won the lottery though i'd never even purchased a ticket, I'd be unlikely to believe them just because winning the lottery would feel really good. subscribing to things because they are comfortable doesn't reflect much on reality - if truth is what you are looking for.

Query: is it the story of his life or the fact of his life that matters to you ?
Because very good cases can be made for him being an amalgam of several mythical figures instead of an actual person.

Story, of course. I believe the story to be grounded solidly in fact, and I have gone through great pains to strip away the cloak of religion, but let's face it: There are no undisputed facts from 2000 years ago. I'm a nutcase, but I'm not nutty enough to presume that my belief is anything but my belief. There's plenty of those kinds of wackos around. ;)

1. Molecules in space appear and disappear constantly, ceasing to exist and existing in the same second. Assuming you're right, though, who created god and what was he doing before the universe was created?

Not necessarily. The science of this is at best very shaky. Nothing created God, God has always been and always will be. As to what he was doing before the universe, you would have to ask him.

2. We're not that special. We're able to build things and do math, but when it comes down to it I think the dolphins have life pretty much down.

We are similar to animals in a lot of ways but just look at the society we've built with language, emotions, technology, and our impressive mental abilities and you can tell theres something different about us.

3. Crazy people do crazy things for crazy reasons. I'm not saying he's crazy, but there's an army of people in New York that would and probably have pissed on a passerby while using the excuse that god told them to do it.

The Prophet was not crazy, nor most of his followers.

4. There are actually a theoretical 11 dimensions, if I'm not wrong. Only 3 or so of which we can actually do anything with, mathmatically and theoretically. Allah created us in stages, why? Does the Quran ever explain why he didn't just get everything rolling with us being born with our current intellect instead of going through stages of evolution?
IIRC there are 7, but I could be wrong. Perhaps he used evolution to test our faith? I'm not sure, again you would have to ask him.
5. Those are all qualities of essentially good people - you don't have to pray in the direction of Mecca five times a day to have any of those things.
Which is why I said I would live as a Muslim even if the Allah isn't real.

[QUOTE=Alcatraz Isle;12070140]Where did god come from? QUOTE]

Obviously God was always there, if he was not he wouldn't be God. Aquinus said it, and he must be right *coughs*

Wait, how do our minds create matter and energy from nothing? I'm pretty sure our minds are made of cells much like the rest of our bodies. These cells use glucose to make ATP which fuels cellular processes including memory, imagination and so forth.

I just got done reading the newest Odd Thomas book, Brother Thomas, and in it there was a situation where a phycisist was explaining how all matter and all being, at the sub-sub-subatomic level, breaks down to what can essentially be described as brainwaves, or thought. So his explanation was that the universe was the result of god thinking about us, and that since we have the ability to think as well, we could do it too - albeit, on a much smaller scale.

Story, of course. I believe the story to be grounded solidly in fact, and I have gone through great pains to strip away the cloak of religion, but let's face it: There are no undisputed facts from 2000 years ago. I'm a nutcase, but I'm not nutty enough to presume that my belief is anything but my belief. There's plenty of those kinds of wackos around. ;)

Fair nuf :) I wish you a happy life ;)

Story, of course. I believe the story to be grounded solidly in fact, and I have gone through great pains to strip away the cloak of religion, but let's face it: There are no undisputed facts from 2000 years ago. I'm a nutcase, but I'm not nutty enough to presume that my belief is anything but my belief. There's plenty of those kinds of wackos around. ;)I don't get it. If you think your belief isn't "anything but my belief", do you think it is true or not?

Wait, how do our minds create matter and energy from nothing? I'm pretty sure our minds are made of cells much like the rest of our bodies. These cells use glucose to make ATP which fuels cellular processes including memory, imagination and so forth.

Have you ever read JRR Tolkein's 'The Lord of The Rings'? Not the movies, mind you. The books. All of that, that entire world and possibly millions of inhabitants along with their histories, their pasts, and futures were created by his mind. That's a lot of matter and energy to come into existence from a brain burning chemical sugar. :)

I don't get it. If you think your belief isn't "anything but my belief", do you think it is true or not?

Well, of course. It's my belief, silly. :p

I just got done reading the newest Odd Thomas book, Brother Thomas, and in it there was a situation where a phycisist was explaining how all matter and all being, at the sub-sub-subatomic level, breaks down to what can essentially be described as brainwaves, or thought. So his explanation was that the universe was the result of god thinking about us, and that since we have the ability to think as well, we could do it too - albeit, on a much smaller scale.

o.O Really? How completely nutty that I've never heard of this Odd Thomas before. Who wrote these books?

Have you ever read JRR Tolkein's 'The Lord of The Rings'? Not the movies, mind you. The books. All of that, that entire world and possibly millions of inhabitants along with their histories, their pasts, and futures were created by his mind. That's a lot of matter and energy to come into existence from a brain burning chemical sugar. :)

You do realise that that world exists only within the minds of humans in this universe, and that as such it would require little matter to form it (matter easily supplied by chemical suger), right?

Not necessarily. The science of this is at best very shaky. Nothing created God, God has always been and always will be. As to what he was doing before the universe, you would have to ask him.

Will do. =)



We are similar to animals in a lot of ways but just look at the society we've built with language, emotions, technology, and our impressive mental abilities and you can tell theres something different about us.

We're a lot more destructive. I think that stands out the most when I compare us to other species. Not just that, but lemme break out the Douglas Adams quote here for a sec: "People think we're better than the dolphins because we've created things like the wheel and New York City and are able to wage war, while dolphins just swim around and play all day - the thing is, the dolphins think they're better for the exact same reasons."


The Prophet was not crazy, nor most of his followers.

Though you must admit, there's no proof to his sanity either way.

IIRC there are 7, but I could be wrong. Perhaps he used evolution to test our faith? I'm not sure, again you would have to ask him.

I don't like the idea that god tests us, it never made sense to me.

Which is why I said I would live as a Muslim even if the Allah isn't real.

But technically you can't be a muslim without praying westward five times a day, correct?

.

I just got done reading the newest Odd Thomas book, Brother Thomas, and in it there was a situation where a phycisist was explaining how all matter and all being, at the sub-sub-subatomic level, breaks down to what can essentially be described as brainwaves, or thought. So his explanation was that the universe was the result of god thinking about us, and that since we have the ability to think as well, we could do it too - albeit, on a much smaller scale.First, I don't know what a sub-sub-subatomic level is, and neither does anyone else. Brainwaves are merely electromagnetic waves at very low magnitudes, formed by ion transfer cascades. I don't know exactly what argument this guy was making, but is sounds hoaky. Rocks can't be described by E&M theory, as far as I know.

o.O Really? How completely nutty that I've never heard of this Odd Thomas before. Who wrote these books?

Dean Koontz. Odd Thomas is my favorite character - fictional or otherwise. He's the patron saint of all those that are short-order cooks and psychics.

*snip*
The Prophet was not crazy, nor most of his followers.

something you take on faith.

*snip*
IIRC there are 7, but I could be wrong. Perhaps he used evolution to test our faith? I'm not sure, again you would have to ask him.
*snip*

Sorry. 10 and 11 are the current favourites. If you put 10 dimensional superstrings into 11 dimensions they form membranes.

You do realise that that world exists only within the minds of humans in this universe, and that as such it would require little matter to form it (matter easily supplied by chemical suger), right?

You do realize that matter is nothing more than empty space, right? It seems to me that the worlds in our minds have about as much substance as our own Earth.

Also, if we're all fish in a bowl called The Universe, does it matter where the fishbowl exists or doesn't exist as long as it exists?

He's right. 7 is not a popular number of dimensions now.

Have you ever read JRR Tolkein's 'The Lord of The Rings'? Not the movies, mind you. The books. All of that, that entire world and possibly millions of inhabitants along with their histories, their pasts, and futures were created by his mind. That's a lot of matter and energy to come into existence from a brain burning chemical sugar. :)All that stuff physically exists as imagination within the brains of millions of people - and yes, that memory is enabled by cell metabolism. Brains are pretty efficient. I really don't see how you came up with the idea that everything we think of exists indeperdently outside our brains just because we thought it.

First, I don't know what a sub-sub-subatomic level is, and neither does anyone else. Brainwaves are merely electromagnetic waves at very low magnitudes, formed by ion transfer cascades. I don't know exactly what argument this guy was making, but is sounds hoaky. Rocks can't be described by E&M theory, as far as I know.

Why not?

First, I don't know what a sub-sub-subatomic level is, and neither does anyone else. Brainwaves are merely electromagnetic waves at very low magnitudes, formed by ion transfer cascades. I don't know exactly what argument this guy was making, but is sounds hoaky. Rocks can't be described by E&M theory, as far as I know.

Everything is the same. He used the phrase "quantum cloud" to give a perspective on how subatomic he's talking, and went even more subatomic with his actual description.

But yeah, everything is made of the same stuff - energy. We can find atoms, and quarks, and quantum clouds, but there is still a smaller form of matter at work, creating these things - energy. In the book, it claimed to have used science to figure out that the type of energy at work was unnervingly similar to human brainwaves, but again it was a fictional book, written by Dean Koontz - though to be fair, he probably did quite a bit of research beforehand to at least make sure this theory was plausable. Considering everything, at the basest of levels really is energy, it seems possible.

The title rather sums it up; why do you belive in God?

Though I personaly don't delive in God a great number of people do. I ask you, a theist reader, why do you belive in God?

Thankyou for your time.

Yeast is why I believe in God.
Among other things . . . but yeast gives us alcohol and risen bread. I don't think that could happen without a higher being guiding the process.

Life, too. That we can breathe and think and believe and evolve and create technology- a God has to have made us that way, I can't wrap my head around that happening on it's own.

And then there's the afterlife and the point of life, etc.
Why bother with anything if this is all there is? If you are smart/resourceful/rich/etc. enough to evade the law, why bother living within the confines of society?
Because if you don't, it will count against you later.

I don't want my soul to be over when I'm gone.
That's so- sad!
Lot's of people need the hope of an afterlife, too.
I don't think I do right now, I have a great, easy life, but lots of people do, and I think it's great and it's real.

If for no other reason than we create it for ourselves.

But I think God did it.

Oh, and as for those atheists out there who say religion is just an instinctual phenomenon or whatever- then why don't we see it somewhere in the monkeys- or dolphins?

The title rather sums it up; why do you belive in God?

Though I personaly don't delive in God a great number of people do. I ask you, a theist reader, why do you belive in God?

Thankyou for your time. Because "I am."

All that stuff physically exists as imagination within the brains of millions of people - and yes, that memory is enabled by cell metabolism. Brains are pretty efficient. I really don't see how you came up with the idea that everything we think of exists indeperdently outside our brains just because we thought it.

Who said anything about our thoughts existing outside our brains or independent of their creators? I said no such thing. I really don't see how that's any different from the world we occupy right now.

You do realize that matter is nothing more than empty space, right? It seems to me that the worlds in our minds have about as much substance as our own Earth.

Also, if we're all fish in a bowl called The Universe, does it matter where the fishbowl exists or doesn't exist as long as it exists?

Not really, it takes a great deal more matter and energy for a universe to exist than for a brain to make a series of electrical and chemical connections and changes that lead to imagination.

But yeah, everything is made of the same stuff - energy. We can find atoms, and quarks, and quantum clouds, but there is still a smaller form of matter at work, creating these things - energy. In the book, it claimed to have used science to figure out that the type of energy at work was unnervingly similar to human brainwaves, but again it was a fictional book, written by Dean Koontz - though to be fair, he probably did quite a bit of research beforehand to at least make sure this theory was plausable. Considering everything, at the basest of levels really is energy, it seems possible.

Hell, I personally feel that consciousness is most likely an emergent property of quantum-level computation. Our "soul" in that case would be a field of those particles that produces consciousness rather than some kind of metaphysical, supernatural substance. It's a monistic interpretation of the mind-body problem, and manages to reconcile both a naturalist and spiritual view of the universe fairly well.

Whether there are any religious overtones to such a concept is up to the person who interprets it, of course. Perhaps reincarnation is simply the collapse of our quantum selves back in to a physical brain?

We're a lot more destructive. I think that stands out the most when I compare us to other species. Not just that, but lemme break out the Douglas Adams quote here for a sec: "People think we're better than the dolphins because we've created things like the wheel and New York City and are able to wage war, while dolphins just swim around and play all day - the thing is, the dolphins think they're better for the exact same reasons."

fair enough


Though you must admit, there's no proof to his sanity either way.
No where is it written that he was anything but sane.


I don't like the idea that god tests us, it never made sense to me.
Its make sure we truly believe, it makes sense to me.


But technically you can't be a muslim without praying westward five times a day, correct?
techically all it takes to be a Muslim is to believe in the one true God, the angels, the books, the prophets, and the day of judgement. But I was refering to doing all things considered Sunnah and avoiding those that are Harram.

Not really, it takes a great deal more matter and energy for a universe to exist than for a brain to make a series of electrical and chemical connections and changes that lead to imagination.

Does it? Why?

Who said anything about our thoughts existing outside our brains or independent of their creators? I said no such thing. I really don't see how that's any different from the world we occupy right now.

The LoTR world exists in reality because JRRT was a black magic user and a devil-worshipper! ^^

Not really, it takes a great deal more matter and energy for a universe to exist than for a brain to make a series of electrical and chemical connections and changes that lead to imagination.

We don't really know how much energy it took to form the universe; it's one of those things that's unmeasurable due to the impossibility of observing the conditions that existed prior to the Big Bang.

Perhaps the person who created us is just a whole lot bigger than our universe; we might be nothing more than one universe in one atom on one blade of grass in an entirely different world.

The LoTR world exists in reality because JRRT was a black magic user and a devil-worshipper! ^^

:eek: AIEEE!!! :eek:

Does it? Why?

Because unless you are going cartesian on me, the universe exists on a much larger scale. IT'S BIGGER and happens to be composed of much more than the idea of the LotR world in every brain (especially since those brains are within the universe).

Everything is the same. He used the phrase "quantum cloud" to give a perspective on how subatomic he's talking, and went even more subatomic with his actual description.

But yeah, everything is made of the same stuff - energy. We can find atoms, and quarks, and quantum clouds, but there is still a smaller form of matter at work, creating these things - energy. In the book, it claimed to have used science to figure out that the type of energy at work was unnervingly similar to human brainwaves, but again it was a fictional book, written by Dean Koontz - though to be fair, he probably did quite a bit of research beforehand to at least make sure this theory was plausable. Considering everything, at the basest of levels really is energy, it seems possible.
*ALARM BELLS*
It's a fictional book

YOUR'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO BELIEVE FICTION.

If this was a scientific claim, it would be publishjed in a JOURNAL, not a NOVEL.

I bet you believed every word of The Da-Vinci Code, eh?

I mean, even with your foggy description, I can see blaring incosistencies: like if everything is the same, just energy, you know, how can anything be unnervingly similar to anything else? Why would it be unnerving?
We know matter is energy, Einstein told us that. String theory (unproved) says all matter can be explained via one-dimentional vibrations.
This desire to connect OUR brainwaves to the fundamental order of the universe is natural given that we are celf-centred, self-exhamining, narcissistic creatures, but I honestly do not see why the incidental workings of our bodies would be any more profound than any other form of matter. To think that OUR brainwaves explain something about the universe (as anything other than a biological or electrical system) is laughable to me.

Because unless you are going cartesian on me, the universe exists on a much larger scale. IT'S BIGGER and happens to be composed of much more than the idea of the LotR world in every brain (especially since those brains are within the universe).

It may have been bigger, but the universe itself was compressed in to a tiny dot at its beginning...it might have been an infinitesimally small amount of energy that set it off and created what we have now.

We don't really know how much energy it took to form the universe; it's one of those things that's unmeasurable due to the impossibility of observing the conditions that existed prior to the Big Bang.

Perhaps the person who created us is just a whole lot bigger than our universe; we might be nothing more than one universe in one atom on one blade of grass in an entirely different world.

See also: The endings to Men in Black 1 and 2.

See also: The endings to Men in Black 1 and 2.

What valid things to base a theory of the universe on.

Because unless you are going cartesian on me, the universe exists on a much larger scale. IT'S BIGGER and happens to be composed of much more than the idea of the LotR world in every brain (especially since those brains are within the universe).

Is it bigger? I don't see it. From my perspective, the universe is no more or less solid and immense than any other thought. The only real difference is that we're in it.

We know matter is energy, Einstein told us that. String theory (unproved) says all matter can be explained via one-dimentional vibrations.
This desire to connect OUR brainwaves to the fundamental order of the universe is natural given that we are celf-centred, self-exhamining, narcissistic creatures, but I honestly do not see why the incidental workings of our bodies would be any more profound than any other form of matter. To think that OUR brainwaves explain something about the universe (as anything other than a biological or electrical system) is laughable to me.

Nobody's ever investigated it, so to say it's laughable is a judgement that is unfounded.

Honestly, string theory itself is pretty goofy; an untestable and unobservable bunch of superstrings vibrating in 11 dimensions stretches credulity pretty far, especially considering the complete and utter lack of testable evidence for the idea.

*ALARM BELLS*
It's a fictional book

YOUR'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO BELIEVE FICTION.

If this was a scientific claim, it would be publishjed in a JOURNAL, not a NOVEL.

I bet you believed every word of The Da-Vinci Code, eh?

I mean, even with your foggy description, I can see blaring incosistencies: like if everything is the same, just energy, you know, how can anything be unnervingly similar to anything else? Why would it be unnerving?
We know matter is energy, Einstein told us that. String theory (unproved) says all matter can be explained via one-dimentional vibrations.
This desire to connect OUR brainwaves to the fundamental order of the universe is natural given that we are celf-centred, self-exhamining, narcissistic creatures, but I honestly do not see why the incidental workings of our bodies would be any more profound than any other form of matter. To think that OUR brainwaves explain something about the universe (as anything other than a biological or electrical system) is laughable to me.

I just said it sounded plausable after the assumption that all matter in the universe is made of the same energy. I hated the Da Vinci Code (coad lawl edit) and didn't believe a word of it after seeing various documentaries, all of which came to the same conclusion: Bollocks.

Again - just a possibility, fiction or not. Alarms went off in my head that you didn't know what sub-sub-subatomic meant, but I'm not going to assume you're just talking out of your ass just because of that.

Does it? Why?
Dude. If you put the entire universe into a mega-calorimiter, you would get a larger reading than if you put a few connected neurons in it. Your'e having some bizzare disconnect here between information stored biologically in cells, and objects that exist outside the body. The fact that the latter can be represented as the former, does not make them one and the same.
*puzzled*

It may have been bigger, but the universe itself was compressed in to a tiny dot at its beginning...it might have been an infinitesimally small amount of energy that set it off and created what we have now.

True, however if you acknowledge that the universe does exist, and that the concept of the LotR world makes up a part of that universe then it must consist of less than that universe, or else the universe would have to consist of more matter.

Also the use of the word bigger was not intended to suggest that sheer size is relevant, only that LotR only exists within the universe.

What valid things to base a theory of the universe on.

*sigh* I'm saying if he didn't understand the point, see the endings, and it encapsulates it fairly well.

I understood. Its just not very relevant.

True, however if you acknowledge that the universe does exist, and that the concept of the LotR world makes up a part of that universe then it must consist of less than that universe, or else the universe would have to consist of more matter.

Unless the LotR universe exists on its own, and Tolkein was capable of seeing that universe and putting it in to words. Imagination may simply be the ability to see other existences that others can't.

Also the use of the word bigger was not intended to suggest that sheer size is relevant, only that LotR only exists within the universe.

As far as we know; when you get in to these types of things, it's entirely philosophical and open to tons of skepticism. It's possible that creativity is simply the ability to see other realities beyond our own and put them in to terms that we can understand.

I understood. Its just not very relevant.

The endings are - if you ignore the fact that it's the ending to a movie and assume I just said "imagine if the entire galaxy was a marble in something's marble sack" then the same point would get across, just not as well.

Nobody's ever investigated it, so to say it's laughable is a judgement that is unfounded.

Honestly, string theory itself is pretty goofy; an untestable and unobservable bunch of superstrings vibrating in 11 dimensions stretches credulity pretty far, especially considering the complete and utter lack of testable evidence for the idea.

Sounds a little like the idea of a god, untestable and unobservable on any level that could be considered to prove or disprove the theory.

I belive because I felt God touch me.It may sound silly to a theist reader but it is something you can't explain but maybe you will understand one day and I hope you do.I used to be atheist as well.

Unless the LotR universe exists on its own, and Tolkein was capable of seeing that universe and putting it in to words. Imagination may simply be the ability to see other existences that others can't.



As far as we know; when you get in to these types of things, it's entirely philosophical and open to tons of skepticism. It's possible that creativity is simply the ability to see other realities beyond our own and put them in to terms that we can understand.

I suppose it's possible that since the mind creates the energy which is the building blocks of the universe, it could look into the other dimensions and form imagination and dreams.

I just said it sounded plausable after the assumption that all matter in the universe is made of the same energy. I hated the Da Vinci Code (coad lawl edit) and didn't believe a word of it after seeing various documentaries, all of which came to the same conclusion: Bollocks.

Again - just a possibility, fiction or not. Alarms went off in my head that you didn't know what sub-sub-subatomic meant, but I'm not going to assume you're just talking out of your ass just because of that.
haha - yeah I caught that after I posted it too. Spelling is a bit of a weakness. The matter=energy thing is nothing more than Einstein's e=mc^2, which has been shown and is widely accepted. It doesn't involve some hoaxy postulation about brainwaves and whatever. WHY would you consider something you read in a novel a possibility? It is meant to be FICTION. The fact that I "didn't know what sub-sub-subatomic" meant souldn't detract from my credibility, considering that physicists don't know about particles that comprise the sub-atomic particles. The stuff you read about in the novel doesn't count, I'm afraid.

Dude. If you put the entire universe into a mega-calorimiter, yo uwould get a larger reading than if you but a few connected neurons in it. Your'e having some bizzare disconnect here between information stored biologically in cells, and objects that exist outside the body. The fact that the latter can be represented as the former, does not make them one and the same.
*puzzled*

QUite the opposite, really. I'm postulating that our thoughts and memories, which seem to be processed both chemically an electromagnetically in a process that bears resemblances to both and neither are actually their own universe. I'm further postulating that the universes of our thoughts are no more or less real than the one we occupy physically.

The endings are - if you ignore the fact that it's the ending to a movie and assume I just said "imagine if the entire galaxy was a marble in something's marble sack" then the same point would get across, just not as well.

The concept is acceptable, however as I have argued that universe would contain ours and as such consist of the matter in our universe and much more besides. The point I was origionally trying to make actually.

I don't worry too much about the specifics of my HP, beyond that my HP is kind, loving, and greater than myself. Whether or not my HP created the Universe, has a flowing white beard, or whatever isn't important to me (any more). Through prayer and meditation I'm coming to understand what my HP's will for me is, and know that my HP is giving me the power to carry it out - if I choose to receive it and apply it.
Boy that's scary, if you make HP mean Harry Potter.

I suppose it's possible that since the mind creates the energy which is the building blocks of the universe, it could look into the other dimensions and form imagination and dreams.

1)Nothing can 'create' energy
2)any energy the mind changes from one state to another by no means allows it to see into another dimension.
3)Its all in your head!

1)Nothing can 'create' energy
Except for god:rolleyes:

2)any energy the mind changes from one state to another by no means allows it to see into another dimension.
Unless god intervenes:rolleyes:

3)Its all in your head!
So is god:rolleyes:

1)Nothing can 'create' energy
Except for god:rolleyes:

2)any energy the mind changes from one state to another by no means allows it to see into another dimension.
Unless god intervenes:rolleyes:

3)Its all in your head!
So is god:rolleyes:

Quite!

Nobody's ever investigated it, so to say it's laughable is a judgement that is unfounded.

Honestly, string theory itself is pretty goofy; an untestable and unobservable bunch of superstrings vibrating in 11 dimensions stretches credulity pretty far, especially considering the complete and utter lack of testable evidence for the idea.It's laughable because placing ourselves as the keystone to the Universe's order is utterly absurd. The universe is much older that our brains, and much larger that we can even imagine. This type of theorizing is a distinct symptom of the self-obsessed meaning-search the Human condition is charachterized by. It has no significance beyond our own psychological ticks.

Yeah, string theory is untestable and unproven, as I acknowledged. For that reason, many people don't even consider it a scientific theory, and instead deal with it as a mathematical system. There are plenty of axiomatic mathatmatical systems that are internally consistent, and "work", and yet have nothing to do with the universe that we inhabit. This one seems to fit. That obviously doesn't mean it's "true".

but i don't. your question is like asking why the sky is green.

God

Why bother with anything if this is all there is?
D'uh! Yeast!

It's laughable because placing ourselves as the keystone to the Universe's order is utterly absurd. The universe is much older that our brains, and much larger that we can even imagine. This type of theorizing is a distinct symptom of the self-obsessed meaning-search the Human condition is charachterized by. It has no significance beyond our own psychological ticks.

But at the same time, if the human mind is the product of the universe, wouldn't it stand to reason that the human mind's processes would be similar to those of the universe? We are, after all, made of star-stuff that was born in the Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago, right?

We're looking at it from the wrong angle: humans share similar patterns with the universe because we came from the universe, rather than the universe being a reflection of humankind. Humans are "created in the image of God", just like all other things in existence.

Yeah, string theory is untestable and unproven, as I acknowledged. For that reason, many people don't even consider it a scientific theory, and instead deal with it as a mathematical system. There are plenty of axiomatic mathatmatical systems that are internally consistent, and "work", and yet have nothing to do with the universe that we inhabit. This one seems to fit. That obviously doesn't mean it's "true".

I think it's interesting and will produce some valuable discoveries in the future. It's probably not a ToE, but it will help in that regard.

QUite the opposite, really. I'm postulating that our thoughts and memories, which seem to be processed both chemically an electromagnetically in a process that bears resemblances to both and neither are actually their own universe. I'm further postulating that the universes of our thoughts are no more or less real than the one we occupy physically.I'm having a bit of trouble with your sentence structure. What process does the chemical and electromagnetic process bear resemlence to?

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that our minds have "universes" in them - that have no other manifestation except in our brains, and that further, these universes are "real", like the outside world around us. I dunno. I guess I agree that our thoughts are "real" - in the sense that they are physicl objects resulting from the arangement of matter in our brain. However, they comprise much less enery, simply because they are comprised of far less matter (3 lbs of brain at the most genrous estimite of "thought mass") vesus the trillions of tonnes of stuff around. The charachterization of our brains as "universes" is a bit strange to me - a universe is usually charachterized by all the matter ever, under a particular set of universal constants. Since our brains are subsets of matter, and follow the same universal constants, it seems that they would be PART of the universe.

*still puzzled*

QUite the opposite, really. I'm postulating that our thoughts and memories, which seem to be processed both chemically an electromagnetically in a process that bears resemblances to both and neither are actually their own universe. I'm further postulating that the universes of our thoughts are no more or less real than the one we occupy physically.

A sort of "linguistic construct."

Thank you!!!

But at the same time, if the human mind is the product of the universe, wouldn't it stand to reason that the human mind's processes would be similar to those of the universe? We are, after all, made of star-stuff that was born in the Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago, right?

We're looking at it from the wrong angle: humans share similar patterns with the universe because we came from the universe, rather than the universe being a reflection of humankind. Humans are "created in the image of God", just like all other things in existence. Exactly! We are bits of matter like all other bits of matter in the universe. As such, we can be used as a model for matter - but by no means are we the best or most useful model. The fact that people insist on trying to connect humans in some special, or "profound" way to the universe has been seen repeatedly in this thread: witness the "our minds have universes in them no less real than the universe around us" and "our brainwaves model the order of the universe" claims flying around. Get over yourself already, people.

I think it's interesting and will produce some valuable discoveries in the future. It's probably not a ToE, but it will help in that regard.

Maybe. I really don't understand it so I can't comment on it's potential.

Exactly! We are bits of matter like all other bits of matter in the universe. As such, we can be used as a model for matter - but by no means are we the best or most useful model. The fact that people insist on trying to connect humans in some special, or "profound" way to the universe has been seen repeatedly in this thread: witness the "our minds have universes in them no less real than the universe around us" and "our brainwaves model the order of the universe" claims flying around. Get over yourself already, people.


Maybe. I really don't understand it so I can't comment on it's potential.

There's no "profound" connection, other than we are energy, and the universe is energy. Simple science will tell you matter = energy. There's probably more advanced civilizations in the universe that have learned how to harness this connection and manipulate the energy - I never said we were the best. I'm saying we don't know shit about how our brain works or why it works or what keeps it going or why we dream or what an "id" is, so there's lots of room for speculation as to the possibilities of what the mind can do, and considering the possibility that at the basest level, all matter is the same form of energy and the mind can manipulate that energy through thought (it can, it's how thoughts are processed) then it's possible - POSSIBLE - read: Possible, that we can create matter and manipulate energy using our thoughts because of this very basic and simple connection.

However creating and alternating reality consciously is a step up form a natural process transferring energy in an largly automated manner.

However creating and alternating reality consciously is a step up form a natural process transferring energy in an largly automated manner.

My point exactly - we're not god himself, so we can't create the universe with our brainwaves. We're infinitely smaller, so theoretically, we can do infinitely smaller things.

The only really daunting thing is that Randi guy offering a million dollars to anyone showing any type of psychic ability and nobody being able to get it after all this time.

A sort of "linguistic construct."

Considering stories of heaven, hell and afterlife, I suspect that our universes are at least partialy subconscious constructs.

I believe in a universal consciousness that is tied to all things/non-things because of unexplainable personal experiences I have had.

My point exactly - we're not god himself, so we can't create the universe with our brainwaves. We're infinitely smaller, so theoretically, we can do infinitely smaller things.

The only really daunting thing is that Randi guy offering a million dollars to anyone showing any type of psychic ability and nobody being able to get it after all this time.

The question would then be what is infinitely smaller than something infinitely powerful? Does it mean that we could never do anything in practice?

The absence of real psychics is not so suprising given that it is fairly unlikely that any do exist, however the absence of convincing fakes is slightly odd.

There's no "profound" connection, other than we are energy, and the universe is energy. Simple science will tell you matter = energy. There's probably more advanced civilizations in the universe that have learned how to harness this connection and manipulate the energy - I never said we were the best. good till here
I'm saying we don't know shit about how our brain works or why it works or what keeps it going or why we dream or what an "id" is, so there's lots of room for speculation as to the possibilities of what the mind can do, and considering the possibility that at the basest level, all matter is the same form of energy and the mind can manipulate that energy through thought (it can, it's how thoughts are processed) then it's possible - POSSIBLE - read: Possible, that we can create matter and manipulate energy using our thoughts because of this very basic and simple connection.here's where you go wrong. We indeed "manipulate energy" in our brains by moving matter, switiching between forms of stored energy and mechanical enery, and so forth. this typeof manipulation is no different than the type you use when you lift a mushroom, or burn some math homework. The type of manipulation you're implying though, is different - it is the transformation of energy into MASS or vice versa. This can only be accomplished in nuclear fission and fusion reactions, where the binding energies of atoms are changed when they split or fuse. Other types of reactions are chemical reactions. these can also release enrgy, by changing bond energies, which happens when atoms bind to different things.

Our brains are capable or performing the latter type of reaction, but not the former. chemical reactions occur spontaneously in nature all the time. So do fusion reactions, but only in very hot places like the sun. Fission never occurs in nature, only in nuclear reactors. So I'm afraid our brains are out as reaction vessels for the transformation of energy from thoughts into the physical things they symbolize. sorry.

The question would then be what is infinitely smaller than something infinitely powerful? Does it mean that we could never do anything in practice?

The absence of real psychics is not so suprising given that it is fairly unlikely that any do exist, however the absence of convincing fakes is slightly odd.

Infinitely smaller than infinitely powerful? *shrugs* We don't understand how powerful god is, so we can't understand how powerful we are in relation to his power. I consider it possible regardless that, at some level, we're still relatively powerful, and could possibly cultivate that power if we trained it correctly.

Also, Randi is a scrutinizing bastard. Almost nothing gets by him.

I am in complete fear that god exists, because if he does, I go to hell. God is incredibly illogical, but there are coutless miracles and things to lead otherwise, I submerge myself in atheist literature, justto try and cement my belief, but it doesn't work. I live in fear.

I'm having a bit of trouble with your sentence structure. What process does the chemical and electromagnetic process bear resemlence to?

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that our minds have "universes" in them - that have no other manifestation except in our brains, and that further, these universes are "real", like the outside world around us. I dunno. I guess I agree that our thoughts are "real" - in the sense that they are physicl objects resulting from the arangement of matter in our brain. However, they comprise much less enery, simply because they are comprised of far less matter (3 lbs of brain at the most genrous estimite of "thought mass") vesus the trillions of tonnes of stuff around. The charachterization of our brains as "universes" is a bit strange to me - a universe is usually charachterized by all the matter ever, under a particular set of universal constants. Since our brains are subsets of matter, and follow the same universal constants, it seems that they would be PART of the universe.

*still puzzled*

Sorry for the confusion. What I'm trying to say is that neither chemistry nor physics can adequately explain thought.

As for the idea that our minds are self-contained universes(notice that I'm deliberately distancing 'the mind' from 'the brain), yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. That three pounds of brain matter within our universe is capable of generating an entire separate universe consisting of perhaps an incalculable amount of matter and energy. I'm also saying that I believe that these universes we generate are NOT part of our universe, but connected to our universe via our minds' residence within our brains.

Further, I think that our universe is someone's mind.

However creating and alternating reality consciously is a step up form a natural process transferring energy in an largly automated manner.
hah, you basically said in one sentence what I wrote in two cumersome paragraphs!!
*cookie*

good till here
here's where you go wrong. We indeed "manipulate energy" in our brains by moving matter, switiching between forms of stored energy and mechanical enery, and so forth. this typeof manipulation is no different than the type you use when you lift a mushroom, or burn some math homework. The type of manipulation you're implying though, is different - it is the transformation of energy into MASS or vice versa. This can only be accomplished in nuclear fission and fusion reactions, where the binding energies of atoms are changed when they split or fuse. Other types of reactions are chemical reactions. these can also release enrgy, by changing bond energies, which happens when atoms bind to different things.

Our brains are capable or performing the latter type of reaction, but not the former. chemical reactions occur spontaneously in nature all the time. So do fusion reactions, but only in very got places like the sun. Fission never occurs in nature, only in nuclear reactors. So I'm afraid our brains are out as reaction vessels for the transformation of energy from thoughts into the physical things they symbolize. sorry.

*shrugs* I disagree. I think that if we understood the composition of atoms enough, and explored the possibility that we can manipulate energy in our brains, we could put two and two together and manipulate atoms with our brains. I think we simply disagree on the extent to which our minds are capable, and until more proof is revealed, you won't budge anywhere closer to where I already am.

Infinitely smaller than infinitely powerful? *shrugs* We don't understand how powerful god is, so we can't understand how powerful we are in relation to his power. I consider it possible regardless that, at some level, we're still relatively powerful, and could possibly cultivate that power if we trained it correctly.

Using thoughts and energy to influence the universe in a small way is something we all do every time we commit any physical action. But I doubt that it can be taken further than that naturally.

Using thoughts and energy to influence the universe in a small way is something we all do every time we commit any physical action. But I doubt that it can be taken further than that naturally.

Then we can try an unnatural route. I'm sure somewhere down the line, when we get far enough into science and some whacko has enough money lying around, he'll start experimenting with trying to amplify the mind's area of effect from being just in the skull.

The title rather sums it up; why do you belive in God?

Though I personaly don't delive in God a great number of people do. I ask you, a theist reader, why do you belive in God?

Thankyou for your time.

Just do, my soul tells me there is one. Or several, but that doesn't much matter.

*shrugs* I disagree. I think that if we understood the composition of atoms enough, and explored the possibility that we can manipulate energy in our brains, we could put two and two together and manipulate atoms with our brains. I think we simply disagree on the extent to which our minds are capable, and until more proof is revealed, you won't budge anywhere closer to where I already am.
Until you show me that the temperature required for fusion could happen in a living human, or that the "bullet" chain reaction required for fission could likewise occur in a living human, you are quite right. I won't budge. And by the way, even if we do understand something, doesn't mean our cells will somehow be able to do it. We can't just reprogram our bodies. That's why we've got machines.

Then we can try an unnatural route. I'm sure somewhere down the line, when we get far enough into science and some whacko has enough money lying around, he'll start experimenting with trying to amplify the mind's area of effect from being just in the skull.

Perhaps someone will, when we are advanced enough, but the technology would almost certainly not involve the transfer of matter/energy in the brain to affect the exterior universe, more likely the device(s) would use their own energy when ordered to by the brain. Like a modern day machine, but bypassing physical actions of the human almost all together.

I am in complete fear that god exists, because if he does, I go to hell. God is incredibly illogical, but there are coutless miracles and things to lead otherwise, I submerge myself in atheist literature, justto try and cement my belief, but it doesn't work. I live in fear.

So if a God exists it has to be the Christian God?

Until you show me that the temperature required for fusion could happen in a living human, or that the "bullet" chain reaction required for fission could likewise occur in a living human, you are quite right. I won't budge. And by the way, even if we do understand something, doesn't mean our cells will somehow be able to do it. We can't just reprogram our bodies. That's why we've got machines.

Well again, I disagree. I can't imagine a limit to what our minds are potentially capable of, including reprogramming ourselves.

Sorry for the confusion. What I'm trying to say is that neither chemistry nor physics can adequately explain thought.

As for the idea that our minds are self-contained universes(notice that I'm deliberately distancing 'the mind' from 'the brain), yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. That three pounds of brain matter within our universe is capable of generating an entire separate universe consisting of perhaps an incalculable amount of matter and energy. I'm also saying that I believe that these universes we generate are NOT part of our universe, but connected to our universe via our minds' residence within our brains.

Further, I think that our universe is someone's mind.Okay, now that I think I get what you're suggesting, the first question that comes to mind, is "why?" How did you come up with this elaborate idea?

Now, to buisness: You seem to be conradicting something you said earlier.
All that stuff physically exists as imagination within the brains of millions of people - and yes, that memory is enabled by cell metabolism. Brains are pretty efficient. I really don't see how you came up with the idea that everything we think of exists indeperdently outside our brains just because we thought it.

Who said anything about our thoughts existing outside our brains or independent of their creators? I said no such thing. I really don't see how that's any different from the world we occupy right now.
Here you are saying that our thoughts do not exist outside our brains, while in the recent post you said that our "minds" (or thoughts) generate entire seperate universes, connected to this universe via the "mind'. So which is it? Is it all in you head or not? and if not, and all that incalculable matter is being generated, by what physical process is this all occuring?

What really interests me is why do you think "minds" play such an important role in the creation and connection of all these hypothetical universes? My theory is that the reason they do is because you're a human and you have a mind, thus minds are prominent in your ideas of what the highest most universal concept is. I argue the contrary. Our minds (and minds period), as biological objects are a highly singular, as opposed to being highly universal. Thus they are part of the universe, but not exemplary of it.

Well again, I disagree. I can't imagine a limit to what our minds are potentially capable of, including reprogramming ourselves.

Reprogramming ourselves is once again far beyond our natural scope, and trying to do it artificially would be incredibly dangerous. Besides even if we could transfer energy used in thought to influence the world it would almost certainly have negative effects on our brains. The amount of energy to influence something would be so much greater than what is normally required of the brain that we would start destroying our brains as we drained additional matter to bolster our physical influence.

because without Gods, humans are nothing.

because without Gods, humans are nothing.

Yeah, right *coughing fit*

because without Gods, humans are nothing.

I'd go the other way and say that without a guiding intelligence, the existence of life (even a single cell) is quite amazing, so therefore a system as complex as a humans seems like it's against all odds.

Reprogramming ourselves is once again far beyond our natural scope, and trying to do it artificially would be incredibly dangerous. Besides even if we could transfer energy used in thought to influence the world it would almost certainly have negative effects on our brains. The amount of energy to influence something would be so much greater than what is normally required of the brain that we would start destroying our brains as we drained additional matter to bolster our physical influence.

My shoulders are simply going to fall off if I shrug any more today, but here I go - *shrugs* - I disagree. Your mind is connected to EVERYTHING in your body, and with enough knowledge and discipline (read: insane amounts of research and training) we can physically change the way our body looks from a subatomic or at the very least genetic level.

I'd go the other way and say that without a guiding intelligence, the existence of life (even a single cell) is quite amazing, so therefore a system as complex as a humans seems like it's against all odds.

I'd go further than that and suggest that without life, gods are nothing.

Okay, now that I think I get what you're suggesting, the first question that comes to mind, is "why?" How did you come up with this elaborate idea?

Now, to buisness: You seem to be conradicting something you said earlier.

Here you are saying that our thoughts do not exist outside our brains, while in the recent post you said that our "minds" (or thoughts) generate entire seperate universes, connected to this universe via the "mind'. So which is it? Is it all in you head or not? and if not, and all that incalculable matter is being generated, by what physical process is this all occuring?

What really interests me is why do you think "minds" play such an important role in the creation and connection of all these hypothetical universes? My theory is that the reason they do is because you're a human and you have a mind, thus minds are prominent in your ideas of what the highest most universal concept is. I argue the contrary. Our minds (and minds period), as biological objects are a highly singular, as opposed to being highly universal. Thus they are part of the universe, but not exemplary of it.

Yeah, I can see how that quote seems contradictory. I suppose that it is, in a way. In that quoted statement, I was trying to explain that the universes of our thoughts don't exist within our physical universe. That it wasn't a place we could physically travel to(?), or that a number of us were somehow 'observing' a universe or a part of one.

In essence, the universes of our thoughts are entirely within our brains AND separate from our physical universe.

I'd go the other way and say that without a guiding intelligence, the existence of life (even a single cell) is quite amazing, so therefore a system as complex as a humans seems like it's against all odds.

Yes, that everything that is could have occured without 'a guiding intelligence' is incredibly unlikely.

In fact it is almost as unlikely as the existence of that creator itself.

My shoulders are simply going to fall off if I shrug any more today, but here I go - *shrugs* - I disagree. Your mind is connected to EVERYTHING in your body, and with enough knowledge and discipline (read: insane amounts of research and training) we can physically change the way our body looks from a subatomic or at the very least genetic level.

Well I suppose we'll just have to disagree. But I admire your conviction if nothing else. *shrugs* :p

So if a God exists it has to be the Christian God?Oh, the eternal guilt trip of religion.

I am in complete fear that god exists, because if he does, I go to hell. God is incredibly illogical, but there are coutless miracles and things to lead otherwise, I submerge myself in atheist literature, just to try and cement my belief, but it doesn't work. I live in fear.What you need is a good cathartic experience. repeat after me:
YO GOD! KEEP UP THIS DISGUISE AND IT'LL BE JUST LIKE YOU NEVER EXISTED. HELL? IF YOU DON'T STRIKE ME DOWN BY LIGHTNING RIGHT NOW, I'M NOT WORRYING ABOUT "ETERNAL FIRES".


*ahem*

What you need is a good cathartic experience. repeat after me:
YO GOD! KEEP UP THIS DISGUISE AND IT'LL BE JUST LIKE YOU NEVER EXISTED. HELL? IF YOU DON'T STRIKE ME DOWN BY LIGHTNING RIGHT NOW, I'M NOT WORRYING ABOUT "ETERNAL FIRES".

*ahem*

I do it five times a day facing CERN.

Yes, that everything that is could have occured without 'a guiding intelligence' is incredibly unlikely.

In fact it is almost as unlikely as the existence of that creator itself.

Semi-sigworthy, gj!

Yeah, I can see how that quote seems contradictory. I suppose that it is, in a way. In that quoted statement, I was trying to explain that the universes of our thoughts don't exist within our physical universe. That it wasn't a place we could physically travel to(?), or that a number of us were somehow 'observing' a universe or a part of one.

In essence, the universes of our thoughts are entirely within our brains AND separate from our physical universe.So our brains are seperate from our physical universe? *touches forehead*
It seems contradictory to me.

But you didn't answer what I'm actually interested in hearing about, which is the basic question of this thread. "Why?"

Thanks :p

But you didn't answer what I'm actually interested in hearing about, which is the basic question of this thread. "Why?"

I think in many ways this thread has departed from the 'point'.

On the wing?

I was going to try to give a serious and thoughful answer but you ruined that...i do sincerely appreciate it.
The image of shatner flipping out is the best smile i have had all day.

Yes, that everything that is could have occured without 'a guiding intelligence' is incredibly unlikely.

In fact it is almost as unlikely as the existence of that creator itself.

hmmm, did I say that?

*checks*

Nope.

I think in many ways this thread has departed from the 'point'.Yeah, but it always makes me feel warm fuzzy to bring things back full circle.

So if a God exists it has to be the Christian God?

No, but if there was one it would most likely be a Christian or a Muslim one, so, lake of fire for me. But I think that there might be some sort of other supreme being, watching over us.

So our brains are seperate from our physical universe? *touches forehead*
It seems contradictory to me.

But you didn't answer what I'm actually interested in hearing about, which is the basic question of this thread. "Why?"

More specifically, our minds are separate from our physical universe and bridge to it via our brains. :)

As for 'Why?' DO you mean why do I believe that the Universe is the mind of God?

Because it explains where it came from; something that even physics balks at.

YO GOD! KEEP UP THIS DISGUISE AND IT'LL BE JUST LIKE YOU NEVER EXISTED. HELL? IF YOU DON'T STRIKE ME DOWN BY LIGHTNING RIGHT NOW, I'M NOT WORRYING ABOUT "ETERNAL FIRES".


*ahem*

Believe me, I've tried. But I'm leaning toward him/her/it not existing.

No, but if there was one it would most likely be a Christian or a Muslim one, so, lake of fire for me. But I think that there might be some sort of other supreme being, watching over us.

Why is a Christian or Muslim God (same God) most likely?

hmmm, did I say that?

*checks*

Nope.

The implication of saying that without a creating intelligence 'a system as complex as a humans seems like it's against all odds' is that it may well have been created by an intelligence, or at least not occured in an essentially random manner.
If you disagree with my interpretation I apologise, however the point itself is still valid.

More specifically, our minds are separate from our physical universe and bridge to it via our brains. :)

I personally feel kind of similar; I see consciousness as coming from the quantum level, where it is our thought that causes it to collapse in to the reality we perceive. Our brains are a vessel for us to translate sensory information and transmit it to our minds.

It blends the "soul" with physical reality in this universe without having to resort to a supernatural force.

More specifically, our minds are separate from our physical universe and bridge to it via our brains. :)

As for 'Why?' DO you mean why do I believe that the Universe is the mind of God?

Because it explains where it came from; something that even physics balks at.Ok, but so does the Giant Spaghetti Monster and any number of other stories one could think of. Why the "mind" stuff? Does it have to do with our having minds? If so, is that not an utterly narrow and human-centric theory of the universe in all its vastness?

Ok, but so does the Giant Spaghetti Monster and any number of other stories one could think of. Why the "mind" stuff? Does it have to do with our having minds? If so, is that not an utterly narrow and human-centric theory of the universe in all its vastness?

Because it's the only thing I can think of that is not limited by physics insofar as it is able to create somethng from nothing. The only real arguing point is: How real are our imaginations?

Is that not an utterly narrow and human-centric theory of the universe in all its vastness?

Yes, it is. But it makes them feel important to be at the centre of everything.

How real are our imaginations?

As real as anything in this universe, but not always in the form we percieve them.

Why is a Christian or Muslim God (same God) most likely?

I don't know. Most miracles? I certainly hope the Abrahamic god is the supreme being. But I'm just gonna stop worrying. Yaknow.

Ok, but so does the Giant Spaghetti Monster and any number of other stories one could think of. Why the "mind" stuff? Does it have to do with our having minds? If so, is that not an utterly narrow and human-centric theory of the universe in all its vastness?

Mind is important because it is not totally reducible to processes within the brain; there are properties that can't be explained as the sum of lesser parts. That means there is something there that gives us consciousness that isn't the product of the brain at the level we currently observe it.

Because it's the only thing I can think of that is not limited by physics insofar as it is able to create somethng from nothing. The only real arguing point is: How real are our imaginations?You say that because you don't understand physics. You don't seem to get the concept of a difference in mass= difference in energy. You don't seem to be able to provide an explanation of how universes containing mass can be generated by "minds" - something you have not defined - though I asked you a couple times. This is most definitely a supernatural theory, severely limited by physics.

The implication of saying that without a creating intelligence 'a system as complex as a humans seems like it's against all odds' is that it may well have been created by an intelligence, or at least not occured in an essentially random manner.
If you disagree with my interpretation I apologise, however the point itself is still valid.

I was speaking of biological systems as seeming to be unlikely without a guiding intelligence of some sort, yes, but you said "everything that is", which wasn't what I was saying.

With all of our intelligence and ability to litteraly move atoms and place them however we wish (http://www.almaden.ibm.com/vis/stm/images/stm5.jpg), we still cannot create something purposfully, that supposedly happened at random. We can't even duplicate the kind of intelligence a single celled organism has artificially on a computer.

You say that because you don't understand physics. You don't seem to get the concept of a difference in mass= difference in energy. You don't seem to be able to provide an explanation of how universes containing mass can be generated by "minds" - something you have not defined - though I asked you a couple times. This is most definitely a supernatural theory, severely limited by physics.

I agree completely. Which is why it's my belief. Unfortunately, nothing in physics can explain the origin of the universe's totality. Since the natural can't explain it, I must fall back on the supernatural.

I personally feel kind of similar; I see consciousness as coming from the quantum level, where it is our thought that causes it to collapse in to the reality we perceive. Our brains are a vessel for us to translate sensory information and transmit it to our minds.

It blends the "soul" with physical reality in this universe without having to resort to a supernatural force.

:)

Mind is important because it is not totally reducible to processes within the brain; there are properties that can't be explained as the sum of lesser parts. That means there is something there that gives us consciousness that isn't the product of the brain at the level we currently observe it.Well, I see no evidence that the mind isn't reducible to the processes within the brain. Biology is a field in its infancy, but a lack of information does not mean that that information is ultimitely innaccesable, or doesn't exist. If an arm's functions can be physically and biologically understood, (though we are nowhere near such an understanding) I fail to see why a brain's wouldn't be (and we are nowhere near that understanding either.)

Well, I see no evidence that the mind isn't reducible to the processes within the brain. Biology is a field in its infancy, but a lack of information does not mean that that information is ultimitely innaccesable, or doesn't exist. If an arm's functions can be physically and biologically understood, (though we are nowhere near such an understanding) I fail to see why a brain's wouldn't be (and we are nowhere near that understanding either.)

Well, here's a problem: there are certain things, like the sensation of "feeling", that can't be explained in words or by using physical explanations of their origins. I can show that love is generated by biochemicals, but it does not tell me what it feels like to experience those feelings. That shows that there is some kind of interpretation of these signals that is not directly reducible to its causes.

That's not to say it's supernatural, but that it is a property that comes from somewhere else, most likely an emergent property from a smaller scale.

Well, I see no evidence that the mind isn't reducible to the processes within the brain. Biology is a field in its infancy, but a lack of information does not mean that that information is ultimitely innaccesable, or doesn't exist. If an arm's functions can be physically and biologically understood, (though we are nowhere near such an understanding) I fail to see why a brain's wouldn't be (and we are nowhere near that understanding either.)

Now who is making humanity to be something special; to assume that we could ever understand our own brains? :p

I thought the irrationality about religion was a good thing. I mean... it teaches "good morals" and then it gives you something to believe in without rhyme or reason.

I don't believe for several different reasons. The fact that you can believe in it for no rhyme or reason is one of them. It allows weird people to follow that religion. Several of these "christians" watch DaVinci Code and then quit believing.

If I was God I wouldn't want such weak people following me. If they were trying, it would be a different story. It's obvious, however, that they are not even trying.

I agree completely. Which is why it's my belief. Unfortunately, nothing in physics can explain the origin of the universe's totality. Since the natural can't explain it, I must fall back on the supernatural.THe contradictions here are getting a bit out of control. You agree that your ideas are both limited by physics and not limited by physics?! Also, in this post you acknowledge that when there's a scientific gap, you hasten to fill it with the supernatural. Why not simply accept a lack of knowledge? Why not accept that we do not yet know everything about nature, and will probably never know everything about nature?

Well, here's a problem: there are certain things, like the sensation of "feeling", that can't be explained in words or by using physical explanations of their origins. I can show that love is generated by biochemicals, but it does not tell me what it feels like to experience those feelings. That shows that there is some kind of interpretation of these signals that is not directly reducible to its causes.

That's not to say it's supernatural, but that it is a property that comes from somewhere else, most likely an emergent property from a smaller scale.Just because something is not reproduceable, not understood, and not modeled, does not mean that it has properties that come from "somewhere else"! again, you also hasten to fill gaps in knowledge with inventions of your own making. Why?

This comes down to the simple observation that I am comfortable with a lack of completeness in understanding, while others find the idea depressing or "just wrong" - and then fill in the gaps with unsubstantiable metaphysics.

Just because something is not reproduceable, not understood, and not modeled, does not mean that it has properties that come from "somewhere else"! again, you also hasten to fill gaps in knowledge with inventions of your own making. Why?

I mean that it can't be explained with the mechanisms we know of now, and can't be reduced to something smaller, so something is causing it and we don't know what it is. We may never know.

This comes down to the simple observation that I am comfortable with a lack of completeness in understanding, while others find the idea depressing or "just wrong" - and then fill in the gaps with unsubstantiable metaphysics.

It's not metaphysics, it's just that there are certain irreducible properties of thought that we cannot explain. Beyond that is the realm of metaphysics; since I'm a fan of trying to have as complete an explanation as possible, I jump the wall and go in to the realm of metaphysics...but that's a really risky thing to do unless you're a fan of philosophy and the realization that your realization of knowledge is limited.

THe contradictions here are getting a bit out of control. You agree that your ideas are both limited by physics and not limited by physics?! Also, in this post you acknowledge that when there's a scientific gap, you hasten to fill it with the supernatural. Why not simply accept a lack of knowledge? Why not accept that we do not yet know everything about nature, and will probably never know everything about nature?


I don't know. :)

I do not believe simply due to lack of evidence. The various religions/religious texts, although all pointing towards the existence of a god/gods, are contradictory about its nature and, I think, simply reflect the philosophies/moral stances of the societies/times in which they were written, and thus why when someone starts believing they will most likely join the religion chiefly associated with their society/culture. I have never 'felt' God nor thought its existence necessary to the world or me.

I follow Kreitzmoorland acceptance of lack of understanding of many things in the world, and hope that in time it will be explained in the same way anything else is in science.

I mean that it can't be explained with the mechanisms we know of now, and can't be reduced to something smaller, so something is causing it and we don't know what it is. We may never know. I don't think you have the tools to say that love is irreducable. I ceratinly don't and I've been learning biology for three years now (just saying -maybe you have more training). But in fact, saying that the mechanism is not know for love is not saying much. Many new mechanisms are published EVERY DAY. Biology is progressing fast. But yes, I have no compunction stating that we may never know some things. And that's ok.

It's not metaphysics, it's just that there are certain irreducible properties of thought that we cannot explain. Beyond that is the realm of metaphysics; since I'm a fan of trying to have as complete an explanation as possible, I jump the wall and go in to the realm of metaphysics...but that's a really risky thing to do unless you're a fan of philosophy and the realization that your realization of knowledge is limited.
Ok. We've got the answer. Other than the irreducable claim, which I dissagree with, we can expalin our difference thus: I stop at "we don't know", while for completeness, you say "I don't know, so maybe it's [metaphisical conceit]"

anyway, it's been a pleasure all - RL calls!

Sorry for the confusion. What I'm trying to say is that neither chemistry nor physics can adequately explain thought.

As for the idea that our minds are self-contained universes(notice that I'm deliberately distancing 'the mind' from 'the brain), yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. That three pounds of brain matter within our universe is capable of generating an entire separate universe consisting of perhaps an incalculable amount of matter and energy.
Not matter and energy --images. Right track; wrong train.

I'm also saying that I believe that these universes we generate are NOT part of our universe, but connected to our universe via our minds' residence within our brains.

Further, I think that our universe is someone's mind.
lol... cool.

The title rather sums it up; why do you belive in God?

Though I personaly don't delive in God a great number of people do. I ask you, a theist reader, why do you belive in God?

Thankyou for your time.

Back to the original focus. Me, being a theist reader, will answer the question.
Why do I believe in God, well because strict biblical teachings are the only things that make any sense. Through 'logic,' (and my heart I may add, that's a very important aspect) I can't believe anything else. I see complexity so much in humanity, in nature, in circumstances, that I see that it must be God. When chances for something are less than a bazillion to one, I can't accept them.

"Christianity" is not what I believe. "Christians" are responsible for the Crusades, the Inquisition, Prejudice*, Hate, Slavery......
True biblical living will produce nothing but good.

Alcatraz Isle

You ask:
>>Where did god come from?<<

God is the ultimativ pleasure, so god is a good answer to anything that is defined, and as such being a very limited form of existence. God is only an extension of your own imagination, god is based on your own self image. Its an idear, that by faith is energized and keept from desintegrating, collapsing. In short: No ego - no god!

And why is it a good question!? Because "I" know the answar, but the "I", will never answer it, because it will be The end of the question, and so it will be the end of "I"! That is why seekers keep looking, elsware, but never truly go to the sourse, and end the quest. You are the creater of your god!

However, it is not a good question - Actually, it is not a question at all! Nobody can truly queastion the ultimative, questions like is there a god or is'nt there a god. You need certainty, solid objectivity to actually put a question forward, wits is not present in questioning the ultimative, call it what ever absolute or god. There is no opposing factor to question in the ultimative. Its not posible to defend the truth for the same matter. Only one who do not believe in truth, is willingely going defend truth. The fact is that so many peoble really dont believe in God, but they use God to destroy others in its name, and to protect ther unfit and dirty happits, to claime what doesn't really belong to them, their so called property, their lootings and sick and violent behaviour toward other peoble.
So it can not be a question, on less there is a hidden agenda, that god is not a stake, then a religios questioning is possible, then the question is a undercover statement. No one can really descripe and explain orgasm, no body can define the indefineble. We like to have sex, and dont buther talking about.
In short - everythin about God is a speculation, based on satisfaction of you selv, but as a question, its never yours. It comes from "something outside" you, from "the others", it groves out of the factors defining your personality, the autorities that have created "I" - your self image; your parrents, friends, lovers, the sociaty, the schools and churches, etc. They have made what you are, and if they have failed, in order to apply to "you" the ideals of sociaty, they are soon to deliver a solution, the "higher meening" of your suffering, and redicules questions about the unspeakebel, the great feeding of "the god" is now poisening your sorry body.

Because "I am."
Thank you, Descartes. Your reasoning is just as circular as his was.

Life, too. That we can breathe and think and believe and evolve and create technology- a God has to have made us that way, I can't wrap my head around that happening on it's own.
So anything beyond your understanding is conclusive evidence of God?
Why bother with anything if this is all there is?
Good question. Maybe there isn't a reason.
If you are smart/resourceful/rich/etc. enough to evade the law, why bther living within the confines of society?
Because if you don't, it will count against you later.
That's an argument for why governments should encourage religious belief, not that religious belief is accurate or reasonable.

Thank you, Descartes. Your reasoning is just as circular as his was.

Oh? what is my reasoning?

why i have an agnostic belief in something is that it seems the scientologists are right about one thing, its all made up....themselves included (thier even worse, i mean come on, a science fiction writer?)...for instance ill take chirsitans now...adam and eve isnt real....its a story...it is...it has alot of back meaning to it and thats why its in the bible....its a story...also, revelation...its the writing style that john used in his cave...others used it too...its "apocolyptic" or something like that...just something to think about...

Oh? what is my reasoning?
Oh, wait. You were quoting God, weren't you?

My mistake.

Given that, one wonders why "I am" is sufficient to convince you of anything.

Oh, wait. You were quoting God, weren't you?

My mistake.

Given that, one wonders why "I am" is sufficient to convince you of anything.
I was quoting an Image of God from mythology, my image, though not my mythology; an image that adequately, incidentally, and not coincidentally, describes my subjective being.

That Image of God is a character who understands his own being in the same way I understand mine (spirit); and seeing as "I am" is a linguistic construct, god can be, too.

Chasing after old men floating on clouds in the sky is unnecessary.