NationStates Jolt Archive

so, i'm looking for a sense of where forumites stand on something.

the issue is tattoos, specifically 'tribal' ones or ones that are actually based on various other cultures' art and iconograpy.
so what do you think - a-ok, somewhat silly but harmless, unjust and harmful cultural appropriation? and why?

Its stupid to try and appropriate articles or elements from a culture in which you haven't grown up, but I live in a country with Kwanzaa, so I don't suppose I've a lot of room to comment.

Its stupid to try and appropriate articles or elements from a culture in which you haven't grown up, but I live in a country with Kwanzaa, so I don't suppose I've a lot of room to comment.
HNF8 is right. We're... complicated.

On the other hand, a symbol is a symbol, is a symbol, the lines are just lines and the polygons just polygons. you can understand that someimes the aesthetics are more important....

I don't think it's 'harmful' appropriation, but it's kind of crass appropriation. Especially when it has little more than an aesthetic meaning to the wearer. I wouldn't do it, but I'm not about to get too up in arms about what people do to themselves.

kwanzaa is lame. most, if not all american slaves were west-african, and kwanzaa is vaguely borrowed from a bunch of eastern and central african cultures. it's the rough equivolent of a spanish immegrant adopting russian customs to honor his ancestors...not all white people have the same culture, and neither do all black people. bleh - this kind of thing is really just sad.

as far as the OP...I have mixed feelings. it's one thing if the culture isn't around, it's another when you try to hijack it. back on the black power thing - my religion is from west africa origionally, but has been as much latin and american as african for the last 200 years or so...now about 30 years ago a bunch of heretofore protestant american black people discovered it and decided it would be fun to return to their roots...which is fine, except they started publishing books and insisting on eliminating all non-african elements and completely white-washing...er...black-washing the religion. wiccans do the same thing with ancient greek and roman and egyptian stuff, but there's nobody around to be screwed over by this, so I'd have to say that's not a problem there - but when people hijack a living culture and try to remake it into something it never was, it's kind of obnoxious.

with the tribal tattoos - are they running around calling themselves navajos or something? if so, it needs to stop. however, if they're not claiming to be something they're not (or rather, wrongly claiming a culture is something they, personally ARE) then it's not a big deal. if there's no misrepresentation or conflict with the "real" members of the culture, I don't see it as a problem.

Never really considered it. I have two tattoos. The crappy one is of a fraternity symbol, but I was in the fraternity, so I guess I have "rights" to it. The second is a symbol I found in a book of Celtic symbology, and I chose it because I thought it was interesting. Now, my background is Celtic, but I'm not trying to represent the tribe or anything, because I don't identify as a Celt. I identify as a Louisianian.

Do whatever you believe in.

the thing that worries me about such things, particularly in regards to subjugated cultures, is that we have already taken pretty much everything we can from them and then began treating them as if they no longer were going concerns. it seems that often times this fits right in with that pattern.

Give your decision some thought. Have a bunch of drinks first. Important decisions like this are always best made with a liter of booze in your system.

That way when you see the tattoo sober for the first time, it's like a surprise present from yourself! :D

Everyone belongs to a culture, they can use symbols from their own, I reckon. It's rather silly to see Maori tattoos on some Anglo kid, just tells me that they haven't thought about what to get, and probably aren't very deep thinkers anyways.

I'm thinking of getting something with the coat of arms of my birthplace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg). Can't go wrong with that, can I?

tribal arm bands are for preppy boys that are afraid to get a real tattoo...or so I am told.

so, i'm looking for a sense of where forumites stand on something.

the issue is tattoos, specifically 'tribal' ones or ones that are actually based on various other cultures' art and iconograpy.
so what do you think - a-ok, somewhat silly but harmless, unjust and harmful cultural appropriation? and why?

"tribal" tattoos (those that are somewhat abstract, consist of dynamic curved lines, and are black) are not tribal. They are neotribal, and originated in America. They are similar, sometimes, to some tribal designs, but rarely.
The tribal I have is a combination of both ancient design with a modern twist.

As for other symbols, no culture "owns" a symbol. That would be like saying one could never discuss a white whale without talking about Moby-Dick or a red A without talking about The Scarlet Letter. Are they primarily associated with one culture? Yes. Does that mean it can't have meaning to a person who is not part of that culture? No. I have a Japanese kanji for music on my arm, mostly because the word "music" would not fit. I understand the symbol to represent music. I'm not Japanese. The symbol is now part of my personal symbolic language. In reality, all drawings are just lines and colors. Do the Arabs own the symbol "2"? The Romans the symbol "A"? No. Symbols are meant to be shared, played with, and experienced.

Both of my tattoos are American. Why? Because I drew them, and I am American. Yes, they have kanji, and polynesian images, and Irish knots, and native American symbols...I'm "part" of some of the cultures, and not others. They are inspired by dozens of things, but they are, and always will be, American.

tribal arm bands are for preppy boys that are afraid to get a real tattoo...or so I am told.True preps would not get a tattoo ;)
They are stereotyped to "bro-dudes", but yeah...those take more balls to get than most, as they tend to be visable often.

I'm thinking of getting something with the coat of arms of my birthplace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg). Can't go wrong with that, can I?

if i went in for non-black flags, the chicago flag would probably look pretty cool as a tattoo

The big problem with getting tribal tattoos is that if you don't understand the culture well enough, you could accident insult it through your choice of tattoo.


People getting Chinese/Japanese tattoos is funny. Unless you get it done by someone who knows their characters, you could well get something other than what you think you're getting.
There was an article I read a few months ago about how there's now a big demand for Chinese character tattoo removal, with the main reason being people have found out what it really meant. One guy had what he thought was 'Spirit' tattoo. It was in fact the character for 'flatulence'.

I'm thinking of getting something with the coat of arms of my birthplace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg). Can't go wrong with that, can I?
My family crest is of severed hand holding a sword on which there are three heads.

Not what you called a happy crest.

let people get tribal tattoos or such, but from their own culture, I wouldn't like to see a white man with maori tattoos (though they look cool) unless he know the significance.

One guy had what he thought was 'Spirit' tattoo. It was in fact the character for 'flatulence'.
I'd keep it!

My family crest is of severed hand holding a sword on which there are three heads.

Not what you called a happy crest.
Meh, if you're from a violent family, be proud of it. :p

Does anyone do graphics design and want to help me work out my tattoo, by the way?

The best tatoo to get is one you designed yourself.

The best tatoo to get is one you designed yourself.

I agree, or lacking that, a Star Wars icon (mark of the empire or rebels forexample)

Everyone belongs to a culture, they can use symbols from their own, I reckon. It's rather silly to see Maori tattoos on some Anglo kid, just tells me that they haven't thought about what to get, and probably aren't very deep thinkers anyways.

I'm thinking of getting something with the coat of arms of my birthplace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg). Can't go wrong with that, can I?

People have been taking elements of eachother's cultures as their own for as long as cultures have existed. The only thing different today is the variety and distance of cultures available to borrow from.

Some version of the Swastika was a good luck symbol everywhere from China to Norway for thousands of years, but it had to diffuse from neighbor to neighbor. These days you can look at a photo of a pacific island tribesman and get a tattoo exactly like his when no one you know have ever seen it before.

In days past if you, in Hamburg, wanted to adopt a symbol from somewhere unfamiliar your choices would be Alsterdorf, Bahrenfeld, and Billbrook. Aren't you glad that you have the option pyjama's from India, coffee from Africa, written language from Rome and tattoos from pretty much anywhere in the world?

I agree, or lacking that, a Star Wars icon (mark of the empire or rebels forexample)

Failing that get the word NERD tatooed to your forehead.

Failing that get the word NERD tatooed to your forehead.

have you seen the revenge of the nerds movies? in any case, beware of the nerds!

Tattoo's have a loooooooong history with mankind, streaching back in years that number in the thousands, and definatly back into what we call our pre-history, as is evidanced by the icemen, and bogmen, and sand mummies, and countless other dead ancestors from all over the globe.

I don't therefore think that any one culture can lay claim on it, rather the culture of humanity can claim any part of it. Besides what is culture other than things people have learned via a process of longevity in practicing it? So any culturral practice, or belife can be changed, just by a few hundred years of practicing it.

People have been taking elements of eachother's cultures as their own for as long as cultures have existed. The only thing different today is the variety and distance of cultures available to borrow from.
I suppose so. Though it still invariably robbs stuff of its meaning. If I got myself a Maori tattoo it might be nice to look at, but it wouldn't have the same meaning it does if a Maori gets it.

You're taking a symbol out of its history and tradition, and putting it somewhere else. So you're always going to lose something in the process. If that doesn't bother you, I don't mind, but I always thinks it makes more sense to get something that actually has a connection with your heritage, if you're that way inclined.

And if you're not, you might not get some cultural thing, but rather something original. A friend of mine recently got the symbol (http://www.hygieneaustralia.com.au/files/Australian%20Made.jpg) of an "Buy Australian" campaign tattooed on his arm. I quite liked that idea, though I don't know whether he actually thought of it.

so, i'm looking for a sense of where forumites stand on something.

the issue is tattoos, specifically 'tribal' ones or ones that are actually based on various other cultures' art and iconograpy.
so what do you think - a-ok, somewhat silly but harmless, unjust and harmful cultural appropriation? and why?

Mostly silly - most people go for "tribal" tattoos because they look cool.
But cultures do change, expecially in times of globalisation. So, formerly non-tattoo cultures can adopt tattoos, just like many non-latin cultures adopted latin alphabet.
Anyway, I'll never have a tattoo on myself. It reminds me too much of the numbers the Nazis tattooed on the lager detainees. Gives me the creeps.

The best tatoo to get is one you designed yourself.And made in invisible ink. :p

No, I don't like tattoos.. One that only shows up in blacklight (http://www.tattooartists.org/Gal3975_UV_Blacklight_Ink.asp) might be amusing though..

And made in invisible ink. :p

No, I don't like tattoos.. One that only shows up in blacklight (http://www.tattooartists.org/Gal3975_UV_Blacklight_Ink.asp) might be amusing though..

That is incredibly awesome. Right, now I just need to make a tatoo and find some tatoo place with that ink. Woot!

let people get tribal tattoos or such, but from their own culture, I wouldn't like to see a white man with maori tattoos (though they look cool) unless he know the significance.
Several things. First, I don't think I've seen anyone get a true Maori (http://maorisource.com/MaoriChief2.JPG)tattoo except those who are hardcore into tattoo
Second of all, even the Maori will not put the same meaning behind their tattoos. Tattoos are highly personal in every culture. No one culture can claim swirly lines that contour to the face. they may be Maori-inspired, but they belong to the artist and the person who wears them.

Does anyone do graphics design and want to help me work out my tattoo, by the way?I'd suggest picking a tattoo artist and setting up a consultation. He'll be able to guide you much better, and knows what he is talking about.

People have been taking elements of eachother's cultures as their own for as long as cultures have existed. The only thing different today is the variety and distance of cultures available to borrow from.

Some version of the Swastika was a good luck symbol everywhere from China to Norway for thousands of years, but it had to diffuse from neighbor to neighbor. These days you can look at a photo of a pacific island tribesman and get a tattoo exactly like his when no one you know have ever seen it before.

In days past if you, in Hamburg, wanted to adopt a symbol from somewhere unfamiliar your choices would be Alsterdorf, Bahrenfeld, and Billbrook. Aren't you glad that you have the option pyjama's from India, coffee from Africa, written language from Rome and tattoos from pretty much anywhere in the world?Hear, hear

I suppose so. Though it still invariably robbs stuff of its meaning. If I got myself a Maori tattoo it might be nice to look at, but it wouldn't have the same meaning it does if a Maori gets it.Symbols are inherently meaningless. We apply our own meanings to them, particularly with tattoos.

You're taking a symbol out of its history and tradition, and putting it somewhere else. So you're always going to lose something in the process. If that doesn't bother you, I don't mind, but I always thinks it makes more sense to get something that actually has a connection with your heritage, if you're that way inclined.For every bit that you lose, you gain that much by placing it into a new climate. For example, look at victorian flower language. Yellow roses were friendship, red roses were passionate love. Your wife would be insulted to get a dozen yellow roses, and would be flattered to get a dozen red. Now, if you took that dozen yellow roses and put in one red rose, you suddenly have a very personal and meaningful group of flowers, more significant than either color by itself.
Placing things into a new context and tradition can only expand the significance of a symbol.


Mostly silly - most people go for "tribal" tattoos because they look cool.
But cultures do change, expecially in times of globalisation. So, formerly non-tattoo cultures can adopt tattoos, just like many non-latin cultures adopted latin alphabet.
Anyway, I'll never have a tattoo on myself. It reminds me too much of the numbers the Nazis tattooed on the lager detainees. Gives me the creeps.

the "tribal" tattoos are not tribal. for example, none of the following are actually tribal, but are done in the neotribal style.
http://www.inksling.com/flash_pages/images/476_jpg.jpg
http://www.tribal-tattoos.net/xCyniX357/Tribal_Wings__19__by_xCyniX357.png
http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/1411985/2/istockphoto_1411985_dragon_tribal_tattoo.jpg

If there is one thing I've never understood, it is why tattoos are criticized if they are chosen for looking cool. This is a piece of art that will be on you forever...it damn well better look good.

My family crest is of severed hand holding a sword on which there are three heads.

Not what you called a happy crest.

"Moore", right?

i think they're somewhat silly but ultimately harmless. unless they look cool, then they're a-ok. but i happen to know that tradionalist maoris consider it an insult for anyone other than a maori to have a maori tattoo. but, then how many non-maoris are gunna bet a tattoo on their chin, really? i've never been a big fan of traditionalists though, i think that sort of attitude is maybe as xenophobic as people bemoaning foreign traditions being represented in their own country. cultural cross-contamination is a good thing imho.

i think they're somewhat silly but ultimately harmless. unless they look cool, then they're a-ok. but i happen to know that tradionalist maoris consider it an insult for anyone other than a maori to have a maori tattoo. but, then how many non-maoris are gunna bet a tattoo on their chin, really? i've never been a big fan of traditionalists though, i think that sort of attitude is maybe as xenophobic as people bemoaning foreign traditions being represented in their own country. cultural cross-contamination is a good thing imho.


I agree, in 3000 odd years time we'llk all be coffe coloured.!

bump and such

I agree, in 3000 odd years time we'llk all be coffe coloured.!
I have only met three people who even approached the color of real coffee, and I fail to see how 3000 years is going to move the world that far unless the sun explodes in 2999.99 years and we're all flame-broiled.

Oh, wait, did you mean "the color of that foully warm milk that people like to pretend is coffee just because they put a scoop of coffee beans into it a few minutes before diluting it with chemicals that vaguely resemble sugar in every respect except those connected to nutrition or taste"? That's quite a mouthful.

No harm done.

The right to tattoo whatever nonsense on your body surely outweighs the right not-to-have-some-special-symbol-worn-by-other-people.

I have only met three people who even approached the color of real coffee, and I fail to see how 3000 years is going to move the world that far unless the sun explodes in 2999.99 years and we're all flame-broiled.

Oh, wait, did you mean "the color of that foully warm milk that people like to pretend is coffee just because they put a scoop of coffee beans into it a few minutes before diluting it with chemicals that vaguely resemble sugar in every respect except those connected to nutrition or taste"? That's quite a mouthful.


hahah yes yes the latter!:p

Everyone belongs to a culture, they can use symbols from their own, I reckon. It's rather silly to see Maori tattoos on some Anglo kid, just tells me that they haven't thought about what to get, and probably aren't very deep thinkers anyways.

Similarly for Maori kids speaking English?

No harm done.

The right to tattoo whatever nonsense on your body surely outweighs the right not-to-have-some-special-symbol-worn-by-other-people.

though similarly, one has the right to go all mel gibson on the jews, but that doesn't necessarily mean that no harm is done or that one ought to do so.

so, i'm looking for a sense of where forumites stand on something.

the issue is tattoos, specifically 'tribal' ones or ones that are actually based on various other cultures' art and iconograpy.
so what do you think - a-ok, somewhat silly but harmless, unjust and harmful cultural appropriation? and why?

I don't care what you tattoo on your body - if you want to look like a Maori tribesman, then by all means do so.

I can't vouch for whatever politically correct response you might engender.

Similarly for Maori kids speaking English?

there might be a useful distinction to make between the colonizers and the colonized

when people hijack a living culture and try to remake it into something it never was, it's kind of obnoxious

the worst for that are the various new-agers - they are just unbelievable sometimes.

I see no real harm in someone "borrowing" a symbol they really like and using it, unless it carries a pretty harsh meaning.

That said, personally, I'd want to know the meaning (if there was one) of any symbol I wore, and definitely one I had permanently placed on my body. There are all sorts of reasons. For one, you might be getting a symbol that is going to be offensive to others (or say something offensive about yourself). If you're ok with that, fine, but it's probably better to know ahead of time. For another, I think I would want a tatoo to mean something to me, rather than just be something pretty. I could pick out a random Asian or tribal symbol that looked pretty, but I'd much rather find a pretty symbol that actually means something I agree with or like as well.

I have an idea.

Get yourself a Sharpie, and have a friend tattoo you (but you'll be able to remove it with some harsh soap, solvent, and a wire brush).

If someone beats you up because of the tattoo, go home and clean up.

If you go a week without serious incident, get the real tattoo.

And made in invisible ink. :p

No, I don't like tattoos.. One that only shows up in blacklight (http://www.tattooartists.org/Gal3975_UV_Blacklight_Ink.asp) might be amusing though..

oh my god, this is fucking badass. I'm seriously considering getting one of these.

the worst for that are the various new-agers - they are just unbelievable sometimes.

oh god, I know. haha, I'm on a curandismo mailing list (traditional mexican folk healing, with *some* native american influence, but not alot) and occasionally some new ager will nance in and be like ZOMG SO YOU GUYS ARE LIKE AZTEC PRIESTS RIGHT???? - they're promptly slapped in the face and told that all practitioners are devout catholics. which is a bit off, admittedly...one of the chief saints they pray to is La Santissima Meurte - that is, "most holy lady death"...it's amusing, because they *are* sincere catholics and have petitioned the vatican to officially canonise a cloaked skeleton goddess...which horrifies the vatican which repremands them, to no avail. heh, we recently had some idiot who is writing a book (oh boy...) on curandismo who came in and wanted to know the names of the gods and goddesses....:headbang: I'm a bit eclectic myself but damn, I'm grateful for such fluffies though, they reinforce my opinion that I'm not actually all that bad...haha

I see no real harm in someone "borrowing" a symbol they really like and using it, unless it carries a pretty harsh meaning.

That said, personally, I'd want to know the meaning (if there was one) of any symbol I wore, and definitely one I had permanently placed on my body. There are all sorts of reasons. For one, you might be getting a symbol that is going to be offensive to others (or say something offensive about yourself). If you're ok with that, fine, but it's probably better to know ahead of time.
When I first heard the story about people trying get their Asian-language tattoos removed, I wanted to see if I could get "Stupid White Boy" tattooed on my arm (in mandrin, of course). Fortunately, a lack of money at the time prevented me from acting on the impulse, as I'm quite sure the joke would have gotten old by now.

I see no real harm in someone "borrowing" a symbol they really like and using it, unless it carries a pretty harsh meaning.

That said, personally, I'd want to know the meaning (if there was one) of any symbol I wore, and definitely one I had permanently placed on my body. There are all sorts of reasons. For one, you might be getting a symbol that is going to be offensive to others (or say something offensive about yourself). If you're ok with that, fine, but it's probably better to know ahead of time. For another, I think I would want a tatoo to mean something to me, rather than just be something pretty. I could pick out a random Asian or tribal symbol that looked pretty, but I'd much rather find a pretty symbol that actually means something I agree with or like as well.

ya know...there is a weird thing about tattoos. The two I have now, I demanded meaning and all that, and that they were drawn by me (in the case of my back, it is literally my hand drawing just transfered without being touched by the artist). Now, I'm all good to get just a random pretty picture

A tattoo will always have meaning, even if it isn't drawn into the image. You will always remember when you got it, why, who was with you, what you were doing, what you were thinking...the meaning doesn't always have to be something you can explain to the random person who asks "what does that mean". That question invariably gets a drawn out answer. Sometimes, it is great to just say "I thought it was pretty", and be able to hide the meaning from others.

oh god, I know. haha, I'm on a curandismo mailing list (traditional mexican folk healing, with *some* native american influence, but not alot) and occasionally some new ager will nance in and be like ZOMG SO YOU GUYS ARE LIKE AZTEC PRIESTS RIGHT???? - they're promptly slapped in the face and told that all practitioners are devout catholics. which is a bit off, admittedly...one of the chief saints they pray to is La Santissima Meurte - that is, "most holy lady death"...it's amusing, because they *are* sincere catholics and have petitioned the vatican to officially canonise a cloaked skeleton goddess...which horrifies the vatican which repremands them, to no avail. heh, we recently had some idiot who is writing a book (oh boy...) on curandismo who came in and wanted to know the names of the gods and goddesses....:headbang: I'm a bit eclectic myself but damn, I'm grateful for such fluffies though, they reinforce my opinion that I'm not actually all that bad...haha

i saw a documentary of the new agers going down to celebrate some 'mayan' celebration at, um, chichen itza, maybe. anyways, they were sitting there with their bongos and didgeridoos, claiming to be the descendants of the maya, and refusing to obey the regulations and orders from the local police who happen to actually be the descendants of the maya.

Similarly for Maori kids speaking English?
Not quite the same thing.

An example: If I recall correctly, many of these tribes had these tattoos to illustrate who they were, which family they belonged to, who they had slain in combat and so on.

For some suburban kid to get stuff like that, or even stuff inspired to look like that would be like me running around with a UK paratrooper tattoo, sporting some replica of the Medal of Honor on my shirt.

I'm not saying one shouldn't be allowed to do it, I'm saying it's silly. These societies have little left to identify themselves with, and I'm not sure it's showing a whole lot of respect to them if I were to appropriate bits and pieces because they happen to look cool. Hey, I might as well get myself a bunch of Yakuza tattoos because I like the looks of them.

As for the neotribal stuff...I don't think they look all that good. I prefer a tattoo to have some sort of meaning, to send a certain message. But if people want to get that sort of thing, fine. As I said, to me that just screams "I have no creativity!"

so, i'm looking for a sense of where forumites stand on something.

the issue is tattoos, specifically 'tribal' ones or ones that are actually based on various other cultures' art and iconograpy.
so what do you think - a-ok, somewhat silly but harmless, unjust and harmful cultural appropriation? and why?

It's could be those things or it could be that the person with the tattoo feels a connection with the culture they are emulating.

In any case I feel it is harmless freedom of speech.

I don't think it's 'harmful' appropriation, but it's kind of crass appropriation. Especially when it has little more than an aesthetic meaning to the wearer. I wouldn't do it, but I'm not about to get too up in arms about what people do to themselves.

I think that it can be harmful.

An analogy would be the word "Coke". As of now the brand is still trademarked, but the word is becoming common usage for any type of soda (especially in the south). If all sodas become commonly known as a coke, the brand ceases to have any value for the originator.

Cultural traditions and symbols are the same sort of thing, if they become common and generic, they are no longer unique to the originating culture, and that culture loses a little more of itself.

I agree with Free Soviets that it represents an ongoing trend of assimilation, appropriation, and ultimately of degradation of other cultures as a result of our lack of respect.

get a nazi symbol on your forehead. i dont give a fuck.

If you are a criminal then it is stupid. Otherwise, I don't have an opinion on them other than I wouldn't get one, though at one time I did ponder the idea.

there might be a useful distinction to make between the colonizers and the colonized

Colonizers = black hats and colonized = white hats?

So what about your generic Maori getting a Celtic tat?

So what about your generic Maori getting a Celtic tat?
Just as stupid.

Just as stupid.

So you're basically saying the colonizers/colonized division doesn't work.

As to the stupidity of a Celtic tat - why? It isn't as if there is evidence that the people of Ireland were big into tats until the 1990's. Hardly cultural appropriation.

Is your position that people's blood should determine what they ought or ought not to do to their own bodies?

Is your position that people's blood should determine what they ought or ought not to do to their own bodies?
If people want a tattoo that shows a heritage, it should be showing their own, yes. And if they don't want to show their heritage, they don't need to get a tattoo with that sort of meaning.

But that's just a personal pet peeve of mine. Must be because of all these funny people claiming they have German heritage because their great-grandmother's sister's dog had an Alsatian for a mother.

If people want a tattoo that shows a heritage, it should be showing their own, yes. And if they don't want to show their heritage, they don't need to get a tattoo with that sort of meaning.

So acknowledging their heritage as citizens of the world is stupid?

I really don't give a damn. More than anything, I think tatoos are a waste of time, money and effort, and that they're too much of a maintenance hassle. But, as usual, that's my perception, and it probably only applies to me.

So acknowledging their heritage as citizens of the world is stupid?
Since when have Celtic tattoos something to do with being a citizen of the world?

Celts may be part of the world, but they're not representative of it.

frankly i think that getting a tattoo just because it is the hip thing to do today is really retarded. Now i dont have anything against tattoos, i just think its retarded to get a tattoo just because its a "cool" thing to do.

people with the type of tattoos mentioned in the op are generally the same people that got a tattoo with the type of reasoning "everyone else is doing it".

Since when have Celtic tattoos something to do with being a citizen of the world?

Celts may be part of the world, but they're not representative of it.

They are highly representative of the mass Irish/Scots immigration into New Zealand though, no?

So acknowledging their heritage as citizens of the world is stupid?

LMAO, so people dont aknowledge citizenship of the world if they dont deface their bodies?

i think being human is plenty evidence of being a "citizen of the world"

LMAO, so people dont aknowledge citizenship of the world if they dont deface their bodies?

Nope, tattooing may be just one of many ways.

They are highly representative of the mass Irish/Scots immigration into New Zealand though, no?
That's got even less to do with being a citizen of the world.

But what exactly would be the reason that a Maori guy would want a tattoo to represent the heritage of settlers from Scotland or Ireland who came to New Zealand? The connection would be rather tenous at best.

So the guy would be doing it because he thought it looked cool. Which I said is fine, but to me it's a stupid reason to get a tattoo.

Colonizers = black hats and colonized = white hats?

could it be any other way?

could it be any other way?

That would make the Maori slighty grey hatted. Having been involved in both.

People like to show their own identity through many ways, including tatoos. :)

At least, they are proud of their own identity, and how the people respond to their own unique identity.

For ex: the Chinese like to associate themselves as Panda or Dragon. They are proud of their identity, because it describes their own characteristics, history, and their glory in the days past.

Most people, even the Americans (with democracy), are all the same. All people love their own identity.

I agree with Free Soviets that it represents an ongoing trend of assimilation, appropriation, and ultimately of degradation of other cultures as a result of our lack of respect.

on the other hand, clearly some things can be done respectfully. since we seem to be on a maori kick, the recognition and use of aotearoa as a name for new zealand seems like a downright good thing to me. so it might be the case that intentions matter, at least to some extent.



btw, if anybody sees neesika around, point her over here for me.

I just want to go on record to say that I hate the butt crack tattoo that seem to be popular with the women. There's a reason they call it tramp stamp people! I will not date any woman who has this tattoo above their ass.

frankly i think that getting a tattoo just because it is the hip thing to do today is really retarded. Now i dont have anything against tattoos, i just think its retarded to get a tattoo just because its a "cool" thing to do.

people with the type of tattoos mentioned in the op are generally the same people that got a tattoo with the type of reasoning "everyone else is doing it".

I gotta disagree, considering this (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/zbronto/P9220058.jpg) and this (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/zbronto/P4260029.jpg) are my tattoos (sorry about the blood in the second picture...it's the only one I have and was taken right after)

The first is a cross between a tribal representation of a bird with neotribal elements, as well as hawaiian and tahitian phrases, a native american figure, and japanese kanji.
The second is a celtic knot with a japanese kanji.

Out of those groups, I only belong to the celtic.

I didn't get them because they were cool. The next one I plan to get will be the first I didn't design, but will pull in elements that I choose. And it will be asian-inspired. Why asian? Simple, really. My tattoo artist loves asian design, and is absolutly amazing. It is as much my gift to him as to myself: allowing him to do a piece of art he really likes

Yeah, I could stick to germanic, hebrew, and british isles symbols, but that isn't all that has impacted me. The very fact that I have tattoos is because of the polynesians.

I know you said generally, and therefore, clearly not picking anyone out, but, as I am part of that group, I gotta defend it;)

I do agree tho. People should not get a tattoo just because it is "cool"...it will be there for a long time unless you have money and like pain.

i saw a documentary of the new agers going down to celebrate some 'mayan' celebration at, um, chichen itza, maybe. anyways, they were sitting there with their bongos and didgeridoos, claiming to be the descendants of the maya, and refusing to obey the regulations and orders from the local police who happen to actually be the descendants of the maya.

typical :rolleyes:

I just want to go on record to say that I hate the butt crack tattoo that seem to be popular with the women. There's a reason they call it tramp stamp people! I will not date any woman who has this tattoo above their ass.

I really hate that term...partly because my sister has one. It is a nice area to get tattooed, in the physical sense (flat skin, stays clean, not prone to pimples/rashes, larger area) and allows some really great art.

A tattoo in no way implies anything about a persons sexual behavior just because of its location.

I really hate that term...partly because my sister has one. It is a nice area to get tattooed, in the physical sense (flat skin, stays clean, not prone to pimples/rashes, larger area) and allows some really great art.

A tattoo in no way implies anything about a persons sexual behavior just because of its location.

So a woman just happens to get a tattoo in a place where if she wants to show it, she's going to have to show a bit of ass and crack?

So a woman just happens to get a tattoo in a place where if she wants to show it, she's going to have to show a bit of ass and crack?

You assume that she wants to show it. You assume that she has to show ass. I've seen my sisters dozens of times, never seen any more ass or crack than any other time.
And even if she DOES want to make people stare at her ass, that only makes her an attention whore...not a slut.

What about me? I plan on getting a belt-line done. Does the fact that people have to see my happy trail/look at my abs and towards my crotch to see it make me a slut? Amazingly, most of the people I know with tattoos don't run around showing them off. Most actually forget that they are there most of the time

Tattoos, astoundingly, do not impact sexual behavior.

I gotta disagree, considering this (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/zbronto/P9220058.jpg) and this (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/zbronto/P4260029.jpg) are my tattoos (sorry about the blood in the second picture...it's the only one I have and was taken right after)

The first is a cross between a tribal representation of a bird with neotribal elements, as well as hawaiian and tahitian phrases, a native american figure, and japanese kanji.
The second is a celtic knot with a japanese kanji.

Out of those groups, I only belong to the celtic.

I didn't get them because they were cool. The next one I plan to get will be the first I didn't design, but will pull in elements that I choose. And it will be asian-inspired. Why asian? Simple, really. My tattoo artist loves asian design, and is absolutly amazing. It is as much my gift to him as to myself: allowing him to do a piece of art he really likes

Yeah, I could stick to germanic, hebrew, and british isles symbols, but that isn't all that has impacted me. The very fact that I have tattoos is because of the polynesians.

I know you said generally, and therefore, clearly not picking anyone out, but, as I am part of that group, I gotta defend it;)

I do agree tho. People should not get a tattoo just because it is "cool"...it will be there for a long time unless you have money and like pain.

Those tats are hot. Very nice. BTW, did the nape piercing hurt? Because I love that piercing (it's one of the few I actually like) but I am scared of pain.

On the actual subject, most of my friends just think islander style tats look stupid on white people. They don't care if we get them, they just laugh at us.

I think that it can be harmful.

An analogy would be the word "Coke". As of now the brand is still trademarked, but the word is becoming common usage for any type of soda (especially in the south). If all sodas become commonly known as a coke, the brand ceases to have any value for the originator.

Cultural traditions and symbols are the same sort of thing, if they become common and generic, they are no longer unique to the originating culture, and that culture loses a little more of itself.

I agree with Free Soviets that it represents an ongoing trend of assimilation, appropriation, and ultimately of degradation of other cultures as a result of our lack of respect.

I was thinking about summit along these lines the other week and in the end all that I could come up with was to shrug my shoulders and say so what.

Let me explain. I'm English, and belive it or not we do have some English culture over here, such as it is a mark of respect to uncover the head before entering a church, temple etc..

How do I feel about people stealing aspects of my culture and then completely mucking them up and changing the meaning?

Well culture is nowt more than practices built up over time. In time all cultures will be basicly the same, as the world 'gets smaller' and the sense of which country you come from is replaced by the feeling of planetwide belonging. Then in say 2000 years time, who the hell is going to remember what a bowler hat was, let alone the correct way to wear it.

It makes no sense to cling to old cultural ways and things, what harm does it really do to a Maori to see a white man with a face tattoo? I mean apart from hurt feelings, none at all, so what!

"Moore", right?
yup

A friend of mine recently got the symbol (http://www.hygieneaustralia.com.au/files/Australian%20Made.jpg) of an "Buy Australian" campaign tattooed on his arm. I quite liked that idea, though I don't know whether he actually thought of it.
your mate got a 'Buy Australian' tattoo?
why?
Is he wanting to become a prostitute?

I was thinking about summit along these lines the other week and in the end all that I could come up with was to shrug my shoulders and say so what.

Let me explain. I'm English, and belive it or not we do have some English culture over here, such as it is a mark of respect to uncover the head before entering a church, temple etc..

How do I feel about people stealing aspects of my culture and then completely mucking them up and changing the meaning?

Well culture is nowt more than practices built up over time. In time all cultures will be basicly the same, as the world 'gets smaller' and the sense of which country you come from is replaced by the feeling of planetwide belonging. Then in say 2000 years time, who the hell is going to remember what a bowler hat was, let alone the correct way to wear it.

It makes no sense to cling to old cultural ways and things, what harm does it really do to a Maori to see a white man with a face tattoo? I mean apart from hurt feelings, none at all, so what!

Let me explain:

It's ok for virtually anyone to put up a farcical representation of an imaginary past (English, for instance) in the form of a "Renaissance Festival" complete with a fake King Henry and a jousting tournament. No one bitches and moans that a culture is being shamelessly distorted, misrepresented, and used for profit.

But do that with an aboriginal culture, and watch the fireworks, pal.

I think it's stupid and brainless, usually, but hell, some of them look cool... Any tattoo that someone gets because everyone else is, or to look cool, or whatever, is bullshit, any tattoo that someone gets because it defines them, is rad. Simple.

I wanna get this (http://moj.blog.hr/slike/00245.gif) one, from Hedwig and the Angry Inch... I'm not a transexual rock star with a one-inch lump for a crotch, but that movie did touch me deeply, and I identify with the symbol. Thats what matters, if you ask me. Not where the symbol came from or anything else.



Though I hate tattoos with chinese/japanese... I guess it's cause I've lived around Asia a lot, and theyre not exotic or cool or mystical or anything else to me, theyre just characters. Walking around with 音樂 or 愛 is no different that walking around with Music or Love written on your arm, and I think that just looks tacky.

so, i'm looking for a sense of where forumites stand on something.

the issue is tattoos, specifically 'tribal' ones or ones that are actually based on various other cultures' art and iconograpy.
so what do you think - a-ok, somewhat silly but harmless, unjust and harmful cultural appropriation? and why?

"Cultural appropriation" is a silly concept. If people want to mark themselves up so that they feel like they're primitive tribesmen, have at it. There's nothing anyone can do to stop it, so it's not worth worrying about.

"Cultural appropriation" is a silly concept.

in what sense?

I was thinking about summit along these lines the other week and in the end all that I could come up with was to shrug my shoulders and say so what.

Let me explain. I'm English, and belive it or not we do have some English culture over here, such as it is a mark of respect to uncover the head before entering a church, temple etc..

How do I feel about people stealing aspects of my culture and then completely mucking them up and changing the meaning?

Well culture is nowt more than practices built up over time. In time all cultures will be basicly the same, as the world 'gets smaller' and the sense of which country you come from is replaced by the feeling of planetwide belonging. Then in say 2000 years time, who the hell is going to remember what a bowler hat was, let alone the correct way to wear it.

This discussion doesn't concern our decendents 2000 years in the future.

It makes no sense to cling to old cultural ways and things, what harm does it really do to a Maori to see a white man with a face tattoo? I mean apart from hurt feelings, none at all, so what!

It devalues the traditions that mean a great deal to them.

in what sense?

In the sense that it's intended to mean something bad.

Cultures influence each other. Fact. Always have, always will. If one culture influences members of another to the extent that the latter desire to adopt elements of the former, great.

In any event, there's nothing anyone can do to stop it, so it's also silly to complain about it.

your mate got a 'Buy Australian' tattoo?
Click the link, it says "Australian Made".

In the sense that it's intended to mean something bad.

Cultures influence each other. Fact. Always have, always will. If one culture influences members of another to the extent that the latter desire to adopt elements of the former, great.

i don't know, it seems like there might be a distinction to be made between influence on the one hand, and domination and destruction followed by appropriation on the other.

In any event, there's nothing anyone can do to stop it, so it's also silly to complain about it.

there's nothing anyone can do to stop murder either...

Those tats are hot. Very nice. BTW, did the nape piercing hurt? Because I love that piercing (it's one of the few I actually like) but I am scared of pain. Thanks. It actually hurt less than my ears, which I got done at 10g. It feels weird, and I reacted bad because I hadn't eaten or had anything to drink...but pain-wise, it isn't as bad as you would think

On the actual subject, most of my friends just think islander style tats look stupid on white people. They don't care if we get them, they just laugh at us.They can laugh all they want. I secretly usually laugh at them right back

I was thinking about summit along these lines the other week and in the end all that I could come up with was to shrug my shoulders and say so what.

Let me explain. I'm English, and belive it or not we do have some English culture over here, such as it is a mark of respect to uncover the head before entering a church, temple etc..

How do I feel about people stealing aspects of my culture and then completely mucking them up and changing the meaning?

Well culture is nowt more than practices built up over time. In time all cultures will be basicly the same, as the world 'gets smaller' and the sense of which country you come from is replaced by the feeling of planetwide belonging. Then in say 2000 years time, who the hell is going to remember what a bowler hat was, let alone the correct way to wear it.

It makes no sense to cling to old cultural ways and things, what harm does it really do to a Maori to see a white man with a face tattoo? I mean apart from hurt feelings, none at all, so what!
I am gonna argue that a bit. The world will never have a singular culture. Heck, my town has a different culture from the next town over. Allston (a neighborhood in Boston) is radically different from Brookline or Beacon Hill (other neighborhoods in Boston). Cultures might become a bit more similar, but they will always be different.

Culture is weird. Americans look back at history and say it is a constant "American" culture. Brits do it, Germans, etc. But the culture even just ten years ago is starkly different from the culture of this moment. In that way, I agree with you.

I think it's stupid and brainless, usually, but hell, some of them look cool... Any tattoo that someone gets because everyone else is, or to look cool, or whatever, is bullshit, any tattoo that someone gets because it defines them, is rad. Simple.Even if they get it because it is the "cool" thing to do, or because it is pretty, it still defines them to some degree.

I wanna get this (http://moj.blog.hr/slike/00245.gif) one, from Hedwig and the Angry Inch... I'm not a transexual rock star with a one-inch lump for a crotch, but that movie did touch me deeply, and I identify with the symbol. Thats what matters, if you ask me. Not where the symbol came from or anything else.I like it.



Though I hate tattoos with chinese/japanese... I guess it's cause I've lived around Asia a lot, and theyre not exotic or cool or mystical or anything else to me, theyre just characters. Walking around with 音樂 or 愛 is no different that walking around with Music or Love written on your arm, and I think that just looks tacky.Well, for me, "Music" was too long of a word, so the Japanese kanji made it effective. I have no problem with getting words tattooed, and don't view Kanji to be any different from olde english, cursive, hebrew, etc. It just comes down to aesthetics.

Since when have Celtic tattoos something to do with being a citizen of the world?

Celts may be part of the world, but they're not representative of it.

but its the best part! :p

Let me explain:

It's ok for virtually anyone to put up a farcical representation of an imaginary past (English, for instance) in the form of a "Renaissance Festival" complete with a fake King Henry and a jousting tournament. No one bitches and moans that a culture is being shamelessly distorted, misrepresented, and used for profit.

But do that with an aboriginal culture, and watch the fireworks, pal.

who has renaissance festivals that doesn't have a cultural connection to europe?

bump and whatnot

Let me explain:

It's ok for virtually anyone to put up a farcical representation of an imaginary past (English, for instance) in the form of a "Renaissance Festival" complete with a fake King Henry and a jousting tournament. No one bitches and moans that a culture is being shamelessly distorted, misrepresented, and used for profit.

But do that with an aboriginal culture, and watch the fireworks, pal.

You are quite right I'd expect fireworks. Thats my point though, what does it matter, who's gonna remember in 2000 years time, why are we soooo cuaght up on our respective cultures? Why exactly does it matter? Pal!:D

why are we soooo cuaght up on our respective cultures? Why exactly does it matter?

because your culture essentially determines who you are