NationStates Jolt Archive

Education appears to be about a means to an end these days. People stay in the education system to get a piece of paper. Or better yet, a better piece of paper than everyone else.

It barely has anything at all to do with learning anymore and is purely about ticking the boxes. No wonder kids are disillusioned. How are you supposed to maintain enthusiasm in that kind of goal for 13 years? It has to be something to do with the quality of education.

Surely something has gone seriously wrong with the education system when Teachers are some of the least respected, worst paid, and under educated professionals around.

How does the capitalist system determine the worth of our educators to be less than the worth of those they educate? In fact how does the capitalist system work out the value of something as ethereal as education at all??

(it’s a serious question my background in economics is lacking having never really learnt any at school)

That is no surprise. Most people are not really intellectuals but rather seek their own ends such as a good job and the financial security that comes with that. Really, it is no surprise that people would act in that kind of manner anyway.

The ticking boxes part of education is probably part of what is wrong about it. Part of that comes from the need to determine the quality of the education received. Governmental agencies have to determine whether or not teachers actually teach, I would imagine that most do, but there are some very crappy teachers out there.

The capitalist system does not determine teacher salary for the most part, governments usually determine teacher salaries and it is totally possible for a teacher to be worth less than the student, based upon what value the student's skills have to other people. Capitalism works out the value of education by determining how much individuals value education compared to what is available. Much of our education isn't capitalist though, however, almost everything has economic value because almost everything can be traded off for other goods.

education *is* about learning - but "education" is about conformity, busy work, and jumping through hoops. a "college" now consists of a bunch of binge drinkers shuffling through glorified trade school. compare that to the colleges of the middle ages and...well, they were still binge drinkers, but they were lofty intellectual binge drinkers, at least. opening it up to the mainstream is what changed it. you can't educate the masses, exactly...or at least you can't make the masses academics or even intellectuals (and thank god for that...), there is a natural caste (and I should clarify I don't mean an inherited one or anything of the kind) of academicians who will persue that path no matter what, and most people simply are not going to fit into that mold.

snip
Children are told by adults that an education is necessary for success, and success equates with getting money. It shouldn't be that big of a surprise.

I think you might enjoy reading the works of Jonathan Kozol. Check his books out sometime. I recommend The Night Is Dark and I Am Far from Home for studying your question. It's a couple decades old, but still largely relevant.

Education appears to be about a means to an end these days. People stay in the education system to get a piece of paper. Or better yet, a better piece of paper than everyone else.

It barely has anything at all to do with learning anymore and is purely about ticking the boxes. No wonder kids are disillusioned. How are you supposed to maintain enthusiasm in that kind of goal for 13 years? It has to be something to do with the quality of education.

Surely something has gone seriously wrong with the education system when Teachers are some of the least respected, worst paid, and under educated professionals around.

How does the capitalist system determine the worth of our educators to be less than the worth of those they educate? In fact how does the capitalist system work out the value of something as ethereal as education at all??

(it’s a serious question my background in economics is lacking having never really learnt any at school)

The state of the educational system in the United States has nothing to do with capitalism so much as it has to do with officials gleefully deciding to chop education budgets across the board in the seventies following the counter-cultural movement of the sixties. Parents encourage their kids not to learn, the government does nothing to help, and the budgets haven't been restored since. The problem starts first and foremost with parents not willing to actually raise their kids, teach them that learning is a good thing and is fun(so many parents teach the exact opposite in fact, which disgusts me) and then proceeds on to the standards we hold teachers to, which are poor at best.

The problem starts first and foremost with parents not willing to actually raise their kids, teach them that learning is a good thing and is fun(so many parents teach the exact opposite in fact, which disgusts me)

What are you talking about?

If you were really that bothered by your lack of knowledge in Economics, then you would have enrolled in an Economics class at your local community college, or purchased Economic textbooks off of Amazon to read at your own pace.

Before you go off whining about how no one wants to learn for the sake of learning, make sure you also take the initiative to learn. If you did that, I would be more convinced of your own desire to learn.

Education appears to be about a means to an end these days. People stay in the education system to get a piece of paper. Or better yet, a better piece of paper than everyone else.

It barely has anything at all to do with learning anymore and is purely about ticking the boxes. No wonder kids are disillusioned. How are you supposed to maintain enthusiasm in that kind of goal for 13 years? It has to be something to do with the quality of education.

Surely something has gone seriously wrong with the education system when Teachers are some of the least respected, worst paid, and under educated professionals around.

How does the capitalist system determine the worth of our educators to be less than the worth of those they educate? In fact how does the capitalist system work out the value of something as ethereal as education at all??

(it’s a serious question my background in economics is lacking having never really learnt any at school)

Some comprimise. This is depressing. :(

Children are told by adults that an education is necessary for success, and success equates with getting money. It shouldn't be that big of a surprise.

I think you might enjoy reading the works of Jonathan Kozol. Check his books out sometime. I recommend The Night Is Dark and I Am Far from Home for studying your question. It's a couple decades old, but still largely relevant.

Thank you I will check that out.

I guess what I am getting at is why is an 18 yo who has jumped through the education system hoops for 2 more years more employable than a 16.

What value do businesses see in education. If they do see a great value in it why aren't teachers paid more. If they don't why are kids encouraged to spend longer in a system that has no value.

Is it purely a child minding system... where people can bide their time till they are deemed arbitarilly ready for work.

I personally love learning.. I was lucky enough to get the odd good teacher here and there, I see a great deal of value in education if you enjoy it.. and/or plan on using it.

Education that is unwanted or unhelpful however seems counter productive to all who are involved.

Do you think there is any chance the system will break down totally and thus have to change.. or will it just keep on getting worse and worse.. no matter how much money is thrown at it?

What are you talking about?

Ever watched parents try to raise kids? I have. They pretty much don't. They essentially just leave their kids alone to watch T.V. and use computers and play video games all day long rather than doing anything to raise their kids; they do this even if the kids is as young as one. It's sickening because the media hardly encourages learning.

Furthermore, a lot of parents actually do decree learning to be a horrible idea. Why do you think those who do well in school are picked on all the time? Why do you think the intelligent ones are the ones who suffer socially?

Its also a matter of numbers. Go back to the good old days, and schools had to cater for far less people... when the number of students increases, at some point the human psyche begins to classify a student as a name or a number rather than a person, and it all unravels from there. Similar to how governments operate; just as it is logistically and mentally impossible for a parliament to consider and count everyone on the census as an individual, so to is it with education.

IMHO, at any rate. I`m looking forward to the next academic year at my school when only 40 students instead of 65 are entering... should give much more time for more interesting and personalised lessons. :)

If you were really that bothered by your lack of knowledge in Economics, then you would have enrolled in an Economics class at your local community college, or purchased Economic textbooks off of Amazon to read at your own pace.

Before you go off whining about how no one wants to learn for the sake of learning, make sure you also take the initiative to learn. If you did that, I would be more convinced of your own desire to learn.

Different people learn different ways.. I find while I have no problem educating myself from the literature, the back and forth of a conversation can often make ideas that would have been missed reading texts more obvious.

You can also learn a lot faster with some back and forth... Hence teachers in classrooms rather than just books, even after kids have learnt to read.

So yes, I have read some books on economics... just finished reading Freakonomics which I really enjoyed.. but for the most part I find econmics very dry and so have so many other things that I would much rather read.

So rather than spend months developing the background knowledge to answer the question myself, I have asked a bunch of people... some of whom may know better than me how the world of econmics functions.


Hope that clears things up for you....

EDIT: Oh and second point.. I am not really whinging about how no one wants to learn.. I was more bemoaning the idea that no one is taught how to learn. If people don't want to learn, then as long as their parents feel the same way, they shouldn't be forced to. It might even help with class numbers.

I would think that it would be a sad reflection on the education system if people didn't want to learn.... but hey.. thats kind of besides the point.

Because the Federal Department of Education does not want us to learn :D

But if you spent months and months reading, you'd learn so much more than a thread on a forum, and have a firmer grasp on Economics in general, and not just this one specific question.

Com'n. You loooooove learning :-P

Ever watched parents try to raise kids? I have. They pretty much don't. They essentially just leave their kids alone to watch T.V. and use computers and play video games all day long rather than doing anything to raise their kids; they do this even if the kids is as young as one. It's sickening because the media hardly encourages learning.

Furthermore, a lot of parents actually do decree learning to be a horrible idea. Why do you think those who do well in school are picked on all the time? Why do you think the intelligent ones are the ones who suffer socially?

What should be done to stop this and get America back on track?! And furthermore, who the hells responsible for the hatred of intelligence in the U.S.?!?!?!

Ever watched parents try to raise kids?

I spent years doing it as a child.;)

I have. They pretty much don't. They essentially just leave their kids alone to watch T.V. and use computers and play video games all day long rather than doing anything to raise their kids; they do this even if the kids is as young as one. It's sickening because the media hardly encourages learning.

Do you think trying to force them to learn would be more effective?

Furthermore, a lot of parents actually do decree learning to be a horrible idea. Why do you think those who do well in school are picked on all the time? Why do you think the intelligent ones are the ones who suffer socially?

Undoubtedly the same reason you think they are - a dislike for learning. But we disagree as to the source. I don't think it's the parents telling the kids that learning is bad. Indeed, I think parents, society, teachers, even the media all tell kids that learning is good. Yet nevertheless they hate it - or more specifically, the way our society handles it, because almost all kids have natural curiosity.

So, kids have all kinds of pressure to learn, plus they seem to enjoy at least some kinds of learning... yet they (in general) hate standardized education. Perhaps that's something to consider.

Thank you I will check that out.

I guess what I am getting at is why is an 18 yo who has jumped through the education system hoops for 2 more years more employable than a 16.
They're older, have more people experience (theoretically), and don't need a work permit.

What value do businesses see in education. If they do see a great value in it why aren't teachers paid more. If they don't why are kids encouraged to spend longer in a system that has no value.
They do, it's called scholarships and grants. The rest will just be grunts/unemployed.

Is it purely a child minding system... where people can bide their time till they are deemed arbitarilly ready for work.
Not really, it's mostly the student's decision.

I personally love learning.. I was lucky enough to get the odd good teacher here and there, I see a great deal of value in education if you enjoy it.. and/or plan on using it.
I have come to believe that a great teacher is a great artist and that there are as few as there are any other great artists. Teaching might even be the greatest of the arts since the medium is the human mind and spirit. ~John Steinbeck
Education that is unwanted or unhelpful however seems counter productive to all who are involved.
Again, mostly to the student. The trick is to learn to find what you're studying to be interesting. (Yes, it is possible.)
Do you think there is any chance the system will break down totally and thus have to change.. or will it just keep on getting worse and worse.. no matter how much money is thrown at it?
It will get worse, there will be more notable reformers, and eventually there will be a BIG revolution in education.

I enjoyed my degree and learned a lot, but mainly did it for the drinking and women. The good job is just a side effect. And its not that good. Im there now for a start, at half 5 in the morning, and we've only managed one film and a couple of hours of poker. Havent even had time for counterstrike.

Because the Federal Department of Education does not want us to learn :D
The DoE is probably the least Orwellian federal department in the U.S.
:D

Better education could be a panacaea for all of societies problems.

Man is the only self domesticating animal and if it doesn't get done right
we just end up with a society made of spoilt Paris Hilton pooches.

People need to be taught how to think (as in systems of evaluating available facts) as opposed to what to think.

-give someone the language skills to express themselves and they don't
have to lash out with their fists

-democracy assumes that individuals are educated and interested enough to make informed decisions. when they are not democracy fails and you just get manipulative political forces trying to scare people into the ballot box

-if drug users were informed of the actual facts about how drugs work on their body, safe usage levels etc, they would be better equipped to manage their own health- instead we pump out paranoid propaganda that focuses on worst case scenario outcomes only- then some stupid people end up thinking that just because they smoked a joint and didn't go crazy, then everything they were told about crack and herroin must be true too.

-in the same way if everyone was more aware about how their bodies worked they would be better able to manage their own health.

Of course the reasons why this doesn't occur are pretty straight forward

-politicians benefit from populations who are easy to manipulate

-people who can't think and have no intellectual life only express themselves through what they buy- so they're great consumers (lets face it, most advertising is aimed at dump people and housewives)

-most people would rather have a simplistic view of the world with black and white solutiosn rather than take on the responsability of making up their own mind about things based on a range of facts.

-also, some people are just plain willfully ignorant and proud of it. The UK, Australia and the US are increasingly anti-intellectual in their popular culture. Being dumb, prejudiced and proud is just the mental equivalent of owning a Hummer or having an AK-47 with armour piercing rounds in your basement for "hunting purposes".

"education" is about fitting into the pre-prescribed rolls here, if they "grade" you high enough you can move on to the next level, which is mostly taken up by learning how to pass the government test so that the teachers can gain more funding to better teach you how to pass the government test.

Learning in my house isn't about passing anything, it's like breathing. One day my kids are going to have to choose what they want out of life, I hope that I can give them enough experiences so that they can make a wise choice.

We actually had a week where we learned learning tachniques in school and even though our maths teacher was a ..., he showed us that maths can be interesting not only for the test.

Education appears to be about a means to an end these days. People stay in the education system to get a piece of paper. Or better yet, a better piece of paper than everyone else.

It barely has anything at all to do with learning anymore and is purely about ticking the boxes. No wonder kids are disillusioned. How are you supposed to maintain enthusiasm in that kind of goal for 13 years? It has to be something to do with the quality of education.

Surely something has gone seriously wrong with the education system when Teachers are some of the least respected, worst paid, and under educated professionals around.

How does the capitalist system determine the worth of our educators to be less than the worth of those they educate? In fact how does the capitalist system work out the value of something as ethereal as education at all??

(it’s a serious question my background in economics is lacking having never really learnt any at school)


Education comes from the Greek word "educare". Educare means to lead out of ignorance. Your post makes me think that you are disillusioned with education because you see some folks out there that are not really doing their part in the education process.

If people only go through the motions they are not following their leaders out of ignorance or at least are not doing a thorough job at it. Most educators are worthy of our respect and deserve students that are willing to commit to becoming educated. However, it is not the teacher's fault if the student is not motivated.

In certain cultures learning is not asa highly esteemed as wealth. These cultures might produce more check the box types. Other cultures such as Ashkenazi Jews value education for its own sake.

Some school districts do not pay teachers well. Others do.Teacher compensation is decided by the political process and collective bargaining. In Texas, taxpayers do not need to pay for new schools because a portion of all oil revenues goes to an education construction fund. You would think that this would free up a lot of money to pay teachers but Texas does not pay the teachers very well. Strange huh.

Education appears to be about a means to an end these days. People stay in the education system to get a piece of paper. Or better yet, a better piece of paper than everyone else.

It barely has anything at all to do with learning anymore and is purely about ticking the boxes. No wonder kids are disillusioned. How are you supposed to maintain enthusiasm in that kind of goal for 13 years? It has to be something to do with the quality of education.

Surely something has gone seriously wrong with the education system when Teachers are some of the least respected, worst paid, and under educated professionals around.

How does the capitalist system determine the worth of our educators to be less than the worth of those they educate? In fact how does the capitalist system work out the value of something as ethereal as education at all??

(it’s a serious question my background in economics is lacking having never really learnt any at school)

i agree with you, apart from one point. what you're talking about is schooling. education is about learning. schooling is about grooming kids to become good little citizens. throughout school we are told, "if you don't try hard now, you'll never get to ", they never tell you that the final stage is to become another faceless drone making money for a bunch of faceless shareholders or a mindless bureaucrat pushing paper for a soulless state (which, let's face it, is what the majority of us will end up doing).

it's not the quality of the education that schooling provides that is the problem (although it is [I]a problem), it's the process in which it is embedded and the final end that it drives for. no wonder kids are disollusioned and depressed when they are told constantly "your results in this test will determine the course of rest of your life". it's not that they don't want to learn, it's that they don't want to be funnelled into this enormous barrel we call the employment market. if schooling really were about education and learning i reckon you would see much fewer dropouts and truants.

I don't know about anybody else, but I decided to go for my PhD because of all the respect and riches that go along with being a PhD in America.

In America, first you get the doctorate, then you get the power, then you get the women...

i agree with you, apart from one point. what you're talking about is schooling. education is about learning. schooling is about grooming kids to become good little citizens. throughout school we are told, "if you don't try hard now, you'll never get to ", they never tell you that the final stage is to become another faceless drone making money for a bunch of faceless shareholders or a mindless bureaucrat pushing paper for a soulless state (which, let's face it, is what the majority of us will end up doing).

it's not the quality of the education that schooling provides that is the problem (although it is [I]a problem), it's the process in which it is embedded and the final end that it drives for. no wonder kids are disollusioned and depressed when they are told constantly "your results in this test will determine the course of rest of your life". it's not that they don't want to learn, it's that they don't want to be funnelled into this enormous barrel we call the employment market. if schooling really were about education and learning i reckon you would see much fewer dropouts and truants.

I am glad that we do not have tests like that in America!

I think schools need to do more to make students good citizens. I am appaulled when I hear about kids and adults knowing zilch about history or not caring about government and politics.

Not all shareholders are faceless. I have a nice face and I am a shareholder.

I don't know about anybody else, but I decided to go for my PhD because of all the respect and riches that go along with being a PhD in America.

In America, first you get the doctorate, then you get the power, then you get the women...

You made me giggle/

I am glad that we do not have tests like that in America!
you have tests at the end of every year though. and failing them forces you to retake the year. which goes on your record. same thing in the end.

I think schools need to do more to make students good citizens. I am appaulled when I hear about kids and adults knowing zilch about history or not caring about government and politics.
depends on your idea of a good citizen. i assume your thinking of someone who will actively engage in the democratic process and not simply regurgitate the rhetoric of their chosen party. my definition is a good little citizen from the point of view of an overbearing government, as in, they do exactly what they're expected to and accept every new measure to regulate their lives.

Not all shareholders are faceless. I have a nice face and I am a shareholder.

how many of the workers in the companies you hold shares in know you and your face.

Education is conditioning and training to enter a specific a role in society-- accountant, US citizen, Singaporean citizen, relief worker.

Learning is something else. It does not require that you are fed into an educational system. It is increasing ones own knowledge.

So, kids have all kinds of pressure to learn, plus they seem to enjoy at least some kinds of learning... yet they (in general) hate standardized education. Perhaps that's something to consider.

i'm always surprised at how hard it is to get people to see the connection here

Education is about bettering yourself- which often implies learning. One can be succesful in life with the knowledge that one gains in school, and if one doesnt understand that then one doesn't treat it seriously one doesnt suceed. People are rewarded for being educated as one can see by the median incomes for people range from ~18k for high school dropouts to ~85/100k for those with doctoral/professional degrees.

Those who dont learn what is taught in HS or during their undergraduate program are the ones who fail to get into an actual graduate school and have the opportunity to be pretty much guarenteed security and success

I know that there's a problem when at my school, which is the only high school to be ranked as an "A" school in my county, nearly half of students failed the state standardized test that is required for graduation on their first try. I think it's also sad that some students divide Algebra I (which I and many other students took as an Honors course in the 8th grade) over the course of all of 9th and 10th grade. Then, towards the end of 10th grade when they take the mathematics portion of the test, which is about half Algebra and half Geometry, they are completely unprepared for the Geometry portion. It's an easy enough test, but I can see how students who had never even been exposed to the material and yet have a test on it anyway could do poorly on it.

Education appears to be about a means to an end these days. People stay in the education system to get a piece of paper. Or better yet, a better piece of paper than everyone else.

It barely has anything at all to do with learning anymore and is purely about ticking the boxes. No wonder kids are disillusioned. How are you supposed to maintain enthusiasm in that kind of goal for 13 years? It has to be something to do with the quality of education.

Surely something has gone seriously wrong with the education system when Teachers are some of the least respected, worst paid, and under educated professionals around.

How does the capitalist system determine the worth of our educators to be less than the worth of those they educate? In fact how does the capitalist system work out the value of something as ethereal as education at all??

(it’s a serious question my background in economics is lacking having never really learnt any at school)

Your 100% right, I've learned more about law, politics, and government, here on NS more than in the 13 years of school I just endured. Quite sad, No one learns. No one learns. Its about numbers, and ink, and letters and paper. School is not an institution of learning, its bassically a place to hold all the kids because the government doesn't know what to do with them all. For fucks sake we had a history teacher that was teaching kids that the Louisiana purchas, was purchases from...SPAIN. for several years, before a teacher from the ED (educational disorder) room, was in there, and was like, what the hell, no it was from france, which created this huge childish drama fest between the two before the history teacher finally looked it up and went, "Duh omg, that can't be right" when finally proved wrong he just totally changed the topic. loser...anyways, thank god he never had me in a class I woulda whooped his ass in a history debate...

Education is about bettering yourself- which often implies learning. One can be succesful in life with the knowledge that one gains in school, and if one doesnt understand that then one doesn't treat it seriously one doesnt suceed. People are rewarded for being educated as one can see by the median incomes for people range from ~18k for high school dropouts to ~85/100k for those with doctoral/professional degrees.

Those who dont learn what is taught in HS or during their undergraduate program are the ones who fail to get into an actual graduate school and have the opportunity to be pretty much guarenteed security and success

Not entirely true, I know several college grads who are stuck in a rut, worse off then several HS dropouts I know.

Your 100% right, I've learned more about law, politics, and government, here on NS more than in the 13 years of school I just endured. Quite sad, No one learns. No one learns. Its about numbers, and ink, and letters and paper. School is not an institution of learning, its bassically a place to hold all the kids because the government doesn't know what to do with them all. For fucks sake we had a history teacher that was teaching kids that the Louisiana purchas, was purchases from...SPAIN. for several years, before a teacher from the ED (educational disorder) room, was in there, and was like, what the hell, no it was from france, which created this huge childish drama fest between the two before the history teacher finally looked it up and went, "Duh omg, that can't be right" when finally proved wrong he just totally changed the topic. loser...anyways, thank god he never had me in a class I woulda whooped his ass in a history debate...

I happen to think instilling that love of learning early would really change society. Our next door neighbour is an owner builder... he used to be a geography teacher. He is loving the process of learning how to build his own house. I think for him learning the techniques for building is as exciting as seeing the house go up.

I think learning how to learn is important for any profession whether its garbage collector or nuclear physicist.

That’s why I think its so sad that teachers are shown so little respect in western society. The potential for improvement of society as a whole really rests in their hands... they are busy shaping the future for our countries.. and yet they are ridiculed.

Teaching attracts on average candidates who are barely better than average academically. Sure you get the occasional standout.. and they really do make a difference. But imagine what it would be like if every kid who went to school had the chance to be taught by a standout teacher at some point in their 10+ years in the system.

How on earth can society value a lawyer or business manage at over 10x that of a teacher when over the course of their career a teacher may be responsible for the education and possibly inspiration of literally thousands of our children?

Along that same vain...Why are childcare workers who are shaping our children’s minds at their most malleable stage even lower on the rungs than teachers??

Where is the break down in the system? and how can it be fixed??

Not entirely true, I know several college grads who are stuck in a rut, worse off then several HS dropouts I know.

Speaking in generalities here, college is pretty much a guarentee of a higher position in life. The census stats on income alone show that (as of this year, an average man who dropped out of HS earns $18.9k a year, graduated from high school earns $28.8k, has an associates degree $39k, bachelors $51k, masters $62k, and finally $89k for a professional degree $74k for a doctorate. Thats around a 5fold difference if someone stays with education and graduates high school and does undergrad/graduate education. Those 8 years of your life are anything but wasted...

Obviously there will be the college dropouts (Bill Gates :P) who do extremely well, and the college graduates who work themselves into an untenable position, but they would be the exception rather than the rule.

Because kids these days are too preoccupied by video games, their computers, MTV, and the like. And the fact that doing well in school is for nerdz.

I think kids should be taught to take school and their lives more seriously and learn how to give more respect to their peers, and especially the teachers.

Children are told by adults that an education is necessary for success, and success equates with getting money. It shouldn't be that big of a surprise.Well, then there's the other part, that an inner city student knows that they really don't have much of a chance to be successful regardless, so there's no point in them trying.[/QUOTE]

you have tests at the end of every year though. and failing them forces you to retake the year. which goes on your record. same thing in the end.Not unless things have changed, this isn't the case. Finals represented 20% of your grade for the semester, which was 1/2 the year. (The finals around the middle of the year were called midterms.) So even if you failed the final, you could still pass easily. It's the work you've done throughout the course of the term that matters more.

Well, then there's the other part, that an inner city student knows that they really don't have much of a chance to be successful regardless, so there's no point in them trying

Not unless things have changed, this isn't the case. Finals represented 20% of your grade for the semester, which was 1/2 the year. (The finals around the middle of the year were called midterms.) So even if you failed the final, you could still pass easily. It's the work you've done throughout the course of the term that matters more.

Here, though, there are tests taken at the end of each year up to 10th grade. If you fail them, you have to take remedial classes. If you don't pass the tenth grade test by the end of senior year, you don't graduate. Sure, the test is pretty easy, but about half of students fail them at least once.

Here, though, there are tests taken at the end of each year up to 10th grade. If you fail them, you have to take remedial classes. If you don't pass the tenth grade test by the end of senior year, you don't graduate. Sure, the test is pretty easy, but about half of students fail them at least once.Oh, wow. Different state, then.

Education appears to be about a means to an end these days. People stay in the education system to get a piece of paper. Or better yet, a better piece of paper than everyone else.

It barely has anything at all to do with learning anymore and is purely about ticking the boxes. No wonder kids are disillusioned. How are you supposed to maintain enthusiasm in that kind of goal for 13 years? It has to be something to do with the quality of education.

Surely something has gone seriously wrong with the education system when Teachers are some of the least respected, worst paid, and under educated professionals around.

How does the capitalist system determine the worth of our educators to be less than the worth of those they educate? In fact how does the capitalist system work out the value of something as ethereal as education at all??

(it’s a serious question my background in economics is lacking having never really learnt any at school)

Unfortunetly, the easiest way to get people to listen to you is to scare them to attention. Therefore, we are told that if we don't go to school, we will be unable to get good jobs. While this is undoubtedly true, it causes people raised in such a system to see education, as you said, " as a means to an end" as opposed to an end in and of itself. The same method was used by the Medieval Catholic Church. Go to google, and you will find that there are probably over a hundred times as many Medieval depictions of Hell than of Heaven.

Oh, wow. Different state, then.

Yes. I'm in Florida.

Speaking in generalities here, college is pretty much a guarentee of a higher position in life. The census stats on income alone show that (as of this year, an average man who dropped out of HS earns $18.9k a year, graduated from high school earns $28.8k, has an associates degree $39k, bachelors $51k, masters $62k, and finally $89k for a professional degree $74k for a doctorate. Thats around a 5fold difference if someone stays with education and graduates high school and does undergrad/graduate education. Those 8 years of your life are anything but wasted...


So where do child care workers and school teachers fit into that pay scale?

Does that seem like the right place to fit the people who are doing the educating?

Because kids these days are too preoccupied by video games, their computers, MTV, and the like. And the fact that doing well in school is for nerdz.

I think kids should be taught to take school and their lives more seriously and learn how to give more respect to their peers, and especially the teachers.

But how are you going to teach kids to respect teachers when society doesn't?

Education appears to be about a means to an end these days. People stay in the education system to get a piece of paper. Or better yet, a better piece of paper than everyone else.

It barely has anything at all to do with learning anymore and is purely about ticking the boxes. No wonder kids are disillusioned. How are you supposed to maintain enthusiasm in that kind of goal for 13 years? It has to be something to do with the quality of education.

Surely something has gone seriously wrong with the education system when Teachers are some of the least respected, worst paid, and under educated professionals around.

How does the capitalist system determine the worth of our educators to be less than the worth of those they educate? In fact how does the capitalist system work out the value of something as ethereal as education at all??

(it’s a serious question my background in economics is lacking having never really learnt any at school)

I don't know. Ask students -- they are always telling me how they don't need to know 'no English' -- that they are going to study computers and like, make games, or that they are gonna play b-ball professionally, or that all they need is science and math.

It's as if no one wants a well-rounded education -- just one specific route, and if god forbid they are not good enough at their chosen area of study to be successful in the career they've chosen, they have no fall-back position and haven't the background to decide if there are other things they might be better at doing.

Worse, parents support this and wonder why their kid's still laying around playing videogames at twenty.

The state of the educational system in the United States has nothing to do with capitalism so much as it has to do with officials gleefully deciding to chop education budgets across the board in the seventies following the counter-cultural movement of the sixties. Parents encourage their kids not to learn, the government does nothing to help, and the budgets haven't been restored since. The problem starts first and foremost with parents not willing to actually raise their kids, teach them that learning is a good thing and is fun(so many parents teach the exact opposite in fact, which disgusts me) and then proceeds on to the standards we hold teachers to, which are poor at best.

*hugs* I agree with most of this, but given I've a BA in English and a MA in Secondary Education: English, I would not agree that the standards to which we hold teachers (at least in NY State) are 'poor at best'.

Anyone who wishes to teach in NY needs a minimum of a Masters' Degree. I can't speak for districts elsewhere, obviously.
I DO find it interesting that most businesses are willing to subsidize continuing education, on the basis that well-educated workers are more productive, yet the government expects teachers to pay for all their training (undergraduate, graduate degree, and continuing refresher courses) on their own dime.

The state of the educational system in the United States has nothing to do with capitalism so much as it has to do with officials gleefully deciding to chop education budgets across the board in the seventies following the counter-cultural movement of the sixties. Parents encourage their kids not to learn, the government does nothing to help, and the budgets haven't been restored since. The problem starts first and foremost with parents not willing to actually raise their kids, teach them that learning is a good thing and is fun(so many parents teach the exact opposite in fact, which disgusts me) and then proceeds on to the standards we hold teachers to, which are poor at best.

Ok so maybe capitalism was the wrong term. It is about money though. Its about money.. and priorities for that money.

Cutting the education budget creates a crapper system with lower paid teachers. It means that either the good ones leave for greener pastures or stay and become jaded and disillusioned. It means that parents had a crap education… so how are they to recommend education to their children when their experience with the system was negative.

Seems to me that the thing that is lacking is respect for teachers as members of our society. There was a point where elders where the most respected members of the clan. Those that passed on knowledge were the most revered people in their tribe. Now with centuries of progress on the back of respect for education and educators we have created a situation where those that are responsible for the training of our children are way down low on the pecking list. Below people who sell us useless stuff. Below people who fill in the vacuum created by a distain for learning by entertaining us.

Seems to me society has got things ass up. And it’s a self perpetuation cycle. I just don’t see how things can change given the nature of the vicious cycle.

So does anyone else have any bright ideas about what the hell we can do … or do people really not see the decline in respect for educators as a major issue.

*hugs* I agree with most of this, but given I've a BA in English and a MA in Secondary Education: English, I would not agree that the standards to which we hold teachers (at least in NY State) are 'poor at best'.

Anyone who wishes to teach in NY needs a minimum of a Masters' Degree. I can't speak for districts elsewhere, obviously.
I DO find it interesting that most businesses are willing to subsidize continuing education, on the basis that well-educated workers are more productive, yet the government expects teachers to pay for all their training (undergraduate, graduate degree, and continuing refresher courses) on their own dime.

But what made you turn to teaching after all that education?

Do you find that when you tell people that you are a teacher that they are generally impressed?

Would you say that you get the same level of respect as say the doctors and lawyers that you have taught over the years?

But what made you turn to teaching after all that education?

Do you find that when you tell people that you are a teacher that they are generally impressed?

Would you say that you get the same level of respect as say the doctors and lawyers that you have taught over the years?

What made me turn to teaching is probably what many would consider the stupidest reason for doing it: because it is worthwhile, because it is necessary, and because I still love learning.

I've relatives who tell me regularly that I should get a 'real job' and that they would never let their kids teach because of the lack of pay and respect... but if no one chose to do it for the love of it, then where will our society be?

When I tell people I am a teacher, they generally ask, "Why?"

Nah, I feel a lot like Rodney Dangerfield in that respect... except for when my former students come back to tell me that I was right to be a pain in the ass about the research paper in senior year since they were among the few in freshman English to know what the heck they were doing, or to tell my freshmen, "Listen to what she's telling you -- she knows what she's talking about."

;) I just wish that translated better into salary.

What made me turn to teaching is probably what many would consider the stupidest reason for doing it: because it is worthwhile, because it is necessary, and because I still love learning.

I've relatives who tell me regularly that I should get a 'real job' and that they would never let their kids teach because of the lack of pay and respect... but if no one chose to do it for the love of it, then where will our society be?

When I tell people I am a teacher, they generally ask, "Why?"

Nah, I feel a lot like Rodney Dangerfield in that respect... except for when my former students come back to tell me that I was right to be a pain in the ass about the research paper in senior year since they were among the few in freshman English to know what the heck they were doing, or to tell my freshmen, "Listen to what she's telling you -- she knows what she's talking about."

;) I just wish that translated better into salary.

Yeah .. thats pretty much exactly what I thought...

So what do you think was the turning point in history that caused teachers to lose societies respect?

Do you think it was the increased access people had to education and the supply of good teachers just couldn't meet the demand? Hence lots of not so good teachers were accepted into the ranks and hence more people had a poor experience?

Why doesn't supply and demand work with teaching? Surely if there was a demand for better teachers there would be better pay offered for teachers to fill that demand.... where did it all go so horribly wrong.

I am just finishing up my PhD in Molecular Biology.

I would love at some stage down the track to become a teacher.

I wanted to see plenty of the world before I did it though rather than just go through the education system and pop out the other end just to re-enter it.

Its not even the money that would stop me... its simply that respect is all tied up with money these days... I don't see how education can work without the respect.. and I really don't want to become a teacher only to get disillusioned within a year or two and end up moving on :(

How does the capitalist system determine the worth of our educators to be less than the worth of those they educate? In fact how does the capitalist system work out the value of something as ethereal as education at all??

(it’s a serious question my background in economics is lacking having never really learnt any at school)

well economics would be your answer here. education is a key demerit service, which means it is intrinsically (by the majority of consumers) undervalued at the point of consumption.
this is why the government must step in to correct the market failure and not just provide education free, but make it compulsory by law.

that is the theory. in practice cuts in government budgets along with hosts of other problems lead to teachers being underpaid.

I should think that if you want to make it something people want, deny it to the vast majority of people. When something is rare and needs to be worked for, it's valued. Think about all the folks who waited DAYS in line to get their PS3s.

Of course, that would completely be against the point of providing a free public education for the improvement of people's ability to think and learn, wouldn't it?

well economics would be your answer here. education is a key demerit service, which means it is intrinsically (by the majority of consumers) undervalued at the point of consumption.
this is why the government must step in to correct the market failure and not just provide education free, but make it compulsory by law.

that is the theory. in practice cuts in government budgets along with hosts of other problems lead to teachers being underpaid.

So are there still countries out there that do value education?

According to Noam Chomsky, education these days is "a system of imposed ignorance"

So where do child care workers and school teachers fit into that pay scale?

Does that seem like the right place to fit the people who are doing the educating?

No idea what child care workers are paid but one can find the (median) incomes for various teachers on this website:
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary

This is a bit lower than other similarly educated people, as (in California at least), teachers are required to have a bachelors+ an extra year for a credential. The roughly 40k a year is compared to maybe 55k a year for similarly educated people (averaging a bachelors (4 years) with a masters (6 years) here).

I have no idea where to look for numbers for actual college professors, though I'm sure its lower than it should be too. Neither of these numbers are exactly satisfactory, but what can one do?

This is my opinion of our education system.

I'm 19 and graduated high school in 2005 (class of 2005! w00t!).This is about the time the NCLB act came into effect.

Everyone's right, the USA (at least the current administration) focuses too much on test scores that realistically prove nothing other than someone is able to memorize how to answer a question and get the right answer.

Needless to say, I didn't do too well in subjects like math, chemistry, and physics - only because I refused to pretend to learn what I was being forced to memorize/study/remember. I never learned much from math, physics and chemistry. Nobody took the time to teach because of the all important NCLB act which said we had to have improving standardized test scores. A total joke.

As sad as this may sound, the only classes that I actually learned from (not only the material about the subject, but about real values and ideas and lessons as well) were my electronics class and spanish class. Electronics class was taught by a younger male teacher, who didn't just have us study from textbooks, but had us work as a team to make something work or come up with ideas on how to build or get something to work and implement them.

My many spanish teachers (I took 4 years of spanish so each year was a different teacher) not only taught me a language, but it also taught me about culture, respect for other people who may be different (ie. me being white and someone else being hispanic.), and how to communicate.

In all honesty, being the lighting desginer/audio tech for my high school for two years taught me a whole hell of a lot more about life, about math, about electonics, research, art, etc. than any class I had:

Having to calculate power consumption, light intensities, heat/temperature, etc. taught me how to use math and physics in ways my classes didn't teach.

Having to design an entire show from start to finish and be able to implement it taught me how to be more creative, how to be organized and finish things on time, and how to communicate with others so that it all came together.

Having to react very quickly to audio or lighting problems during a live performance taught me how to think on my feet, how to stay in control and stay calmer during a "crisis".

No other class in high school taught me as much as theatre has. And honestly, I wish I was doing it full-time at the high school. Best moments I have ever had in my life, so far.

As much as most schools focus on testing, we need to introduce these kinds of activies more throroughly so that other students can learn, while having fun, and actually take interest in the subject. Not only for their sake, but the the future of the nation entirely.

We should not be basing our futures on a number or letter. We will fail that way.