NationStates Jolt Archive


Harry Potter = Satan

Catch-All Explanations
10-12-2006, 15:45
Is there anyone out there who actually believes that Harry Potter is in any way Satanic or evil? If so, why?
Greater Valia
10-12-2006, 15:46
Is there anyone out there who actually believes that Harry Potter is in any way Satanic or evil? If so, why?

Satanic? No. Juvenile? Yes.
King Bodacious
10-12-2006, 15:47
Is there anyone out there who actually believes that Harry Potter is in any way Satanic or evil? If so, why?

Nope, I don't feel he is. It's fantasy, make believe, entertainment. I don't see any connection whatsoever with Satan.
Catch-All Explanations
10-12-2006, 15:50
Nope, I don't feel he is. It's fantasy, make believe, entertainment. I don't see any connection whatsoever with Satan.

Neither do I. I know that quite a few Muslims are opposed to it, however and so are many Christians. I just want to know why, since these people never seem to give you an actual reason or anything vaguely resembling evidence.
I'm open to persuasion to the idea that it might be corrupting the minds of children and whatnot, but I remain entirely unconvined so far.
Call to power
10-12-2006, 15:50
Neither do I. I know that quite a few Muslims are opposed to it

source?
The SR
10-12-2006, 15:51
Is there anyone out there who actually believes that Harry Potter is in any way Satanic or evil? If so, why?

the closet cases will shout something about the occult and magic = the devils work. they rant the same about haloween too.
Ashmoria
10-12-2006, 15:54
hmmmm

satan is evil personified

money is the root of all evil

harry potter has made several boat loads of money...
Catch-All Explanations
10-12-2006, 15:55
source?

:confused: I hear my friends and neighbours talking about it. If you want me to tape record them for you, I'm not going to.
Swilatia
10-12-2006, 15:57
yes, because it is a terrible book.
Call to power
10-12-2006, 15:57
:confused: I hear my friends and neighbours talking about it. If you want me to tape record them for you, I'm not going to.

oh sorry there was me thinking you used unreliable sources:rolleyes:
Hydesland
10-12-2006, 15:58
There arn't any christians (at least that I know of) that think Harry Potter is satan, they are just against him because he promotes witch craft.
Pyotr
10-12-2006, 16:00
they are just against him because he promotes witch craft.

How, exactly?
Catch-All Explanations
10-12-2006, 16:00
oh sorry there was me thinking you used unreliable sources:rolleyes:

They are Muslims and they believe it is evil. How is that unreliable?
Hydesland
10-12-2006, 16:02
How, exactly?

Well, they think that because he goes to a school of witch and wizards and spends his whole time practicing witch craft. Kids tend to copy what they see on TV, it doesn't taken a genious to realise why fundamentalists would be against it.
Call to power
10-12-2006, 16:04
They are Muslims and they believe it is evil. How is that unreliable?

because my best friends cousins auntie is a Christian that believes in gremlins
Katganistan
10-12-2006, 16:04
Satanic? No. Juvenile? Yes.

Probably why he's classified as Reading level: Ages 9-12.
Katganistan
10-12-2006, 16:05
hmmmm

satan is evil personified

money is the root of all evil

harry potter has made several boat loads of money...

He hasn't. ;) His author, J.K. Rowling has.
Cabra West
10-12-2006, 16:05
oh sorry there was me thinking you used unreliable sources:rolleyes:

Jut a few samples from a random google search :

http://christianclarityreview.wpblogs.com/2005/11/19/

http://www.exposingsatanism.org/harrypotter.htm

http://www.greaterthings.com/Lexicon/H/HarryPotter/

http://www.bettybowers.com/potteralert.html

Need more?
Katganistan
10-12-2006, 16:07
They are Muslims and they believe it is evil. How is that unreliable?

Anecdotal evidence doesn't reflect what "most" of "group x" believes -- only the small group you've run into.
Pyotr
10-12-2006, 16:07
Well, they think that because he goes to a school of witch and wizards and spends his whole time practicing witch craft. Kids tend to copy what they see on TV, it doesn't taken a genious to realise why fundamentalists would be against it.

11th commandment: Thou shalt know the definition of fiction.
New Gothland
10-12-2006, 16:08
Problem is none of that is acual witchcraft walking around with a stick and yelling garggled versions of words in other lanagauges wont acomplish anything. The occult is much more complicated than that. Its useally just a case that people lack the knowledge to recoudnise the fact that its just fantasy. Its simaler to the argument that D&D is stanic and I have been playing since I was 8 and I have yet to sacrifice any babys or kill my parents.

I personaly enjoy the books and how they have matured as the characters has, there a few frustrateing elements but hey they are kids books, though it would be kinda cool if they released an adult version.
Greater Valia
10-12-2006, 16:08
Probably why he's classified as Reading level: Ages 9-12.

I only call it juvenile because so many adults seem infatuated with it.
Catch-All Explanations
10-12-2006, 16:10
Anecdotal evidence doesn't reflect what "most" of "group x" believes -- only the small group you've run into.

In that case, no opinion poll could ever be classified as reliable.
Cosmo Island
10-12-2006, 16:13
It's pretty amusing how various religious groups actually believe that magic and witchcraft are real. Do they seriously think there is a risk that kids will go around putting curses on people and summoning demons?

But I suppose if you believe that some guy who got nailed to a plank of wood two thousand years ago is your best friend and saviour, you must be prepared to believe anything.
Theresiopia
10-12-2006, 16:15
No. I am a Christian who started reading these books when they came out, in 6th grade. It hasn't poisoned me into thinking all of this is real, though we have no proof it isn't. (jk) It hasn't affected my religion. And in the movie, harry is hot. lol:p
[NS]Cthulhu-Mythos
10-12-2006, 16:18
Anecdotal evidence doesn't reflect what "most" of "group x" believes -- only the small group you've run into.
In that case, no opinion poll could ever be classified as reliable.
That is EXACTLY the problem of Opinion Polls.
Group A can be asked if they prefer Product X or Product W but ask them something and get an answer that you DON'T like and suddenly they can be deemed unreliable.

Voting is the ULTIMATE Opinion Poll, I've certainly deemed the American peoples' opinion to be unreliable in the last two elections.
King Bodacious
10-12-2006, 16:18
-snip-

money is the root of all evil

-snip-

Actually, I think the saying is, "the Love of Money is the root of all Evil"

Money itself can't be evil, it's a necessity. :D

Back on Topic: Harry Potter is definately not Satanic. It's make believe.
Greater Valia
10-12-2006, 16:19
Cthulhu-Mythos;12064061']Voting is the ULTIMATE Opinion Poll, I've certainly deemed the American peoples' opinion to be unreliable in the last two elections.

Dont you mean the last election?
Slythros
10-12-2006, 16:24
Jut a few samples from a random google search :

http://christianclarityreview.wpblogs.com/2005/11/19/

http://www.exposingsatanism.org/harrypotter.htm

http://www.greaterthings.com/Lexicon/H/HarryPotter/

http://www.bettybowers.com/potteralert.html

Need more?


That last link to betty bowers. That website is a satiric place making fun of fundamentalist christians.
Cabra West
10-12-2006, 16:30
That last link to betty bowers. That website is a satiric place making fun of fundamentalist christians.

Yep. But I liked the little pic of Satan and Hogwarts....
King Bodacious
10-12-2006, 16:30
I personally think that fantasies and imagination is great excercize for the mind. I can't really speak about the Harry Potter movies from a kids perspective, since I watched it as an adult about 8 months ago (28 yrs. old) I rented them from Blockbuster.

Anyways, I do remember many years ago after watching "the Sword in the Stone" I would pretend to be the most powerful sorceror in the world. Did that mean that I attempted to challenge God's strength and Power? I think not. Imagination is a great think and for the most part is a natural occurance especially involving kids. :)
Hamilay
10-12-2006, 16:32
Jut a few samples from a random google search :

http://christianclarityreview.wpblogs.com/2005/11/19/

http://www.exposingsatanism.org/harrypotter.htm

http://www.greaterthings.com/Lexicon/H/HarryPotter/

http://www.bettybowers.com/potteralert.html

Need more?
That exposingsatanism.org site was perhaps the stupidest site I have ever seen on the interwebs. Their section on scientology was perfectly sensible, but not enough to redeem them. They even managed to incorporate 'ph3ar t3h j00z!!' rhetoric in.
I liked this. (New World Order- United Nations)
Following are just some of the policies of the United Nations:

Control over whether women are allowed to have babies.
...

...
Kryozerkia
10-12-2006, 16:35
I doubt the Harry Potter books glorify satan. I'm more inclined to believe that the Old and New Testaments (or whatever the hell you want to call those "holy" pieces of God-sanctioned crap) glorify satan more than a fictitious work of literature ever could.
Ashmoria
10-12-2006, 16:41
He hasn't. ;) His author, J.K. Rowling has.

how DARE you call jk rowling satan!
Katganistan
10-12-2006, 16:43
In that case, no opinion poll could ever be classified as reliable.

Opinion poll =/= a poster saying "All Muslims believe this because the ones on my block say they do!"
Catch-All Explanations
10-12-2006, 16:46
Opinion poll =/= a poster saying "All Muslims believe this because the ones on my block say they do!"

At what point did I say they all do? I'm a Muslim and I vertainly don't. Please read more carefully before criticizing.
Ashmoria
10-12-2006, 16:47
i dont really understand the fuss.

childrens literature is full of witches, fairies, goblins, ogres, all sorts of non-christian ideas.

no one protests snow white because she is attacked by the witch-queen.
Pyotr
10-12-2006, 16:49
i dont really understand the fuss.

childrens literature is full of witches, fairies, goblins, ogres, all sorts of non-christian ideas.

no one protests snow white because she is attacked by the witch-queen.

No shit, should Macbeth be banned because Macbeth fulfills a prophecy given by the weird sisters?
Intangelon
10-12-2006, 16:59
I only call it juvenile because so many adults seem infatuated with it.

I think not. You call it juvenile because you don't like it and therefore cannot understand why anyone would like it, regardless of their age.

By the same token, adults still eat things that kids like, candy and whatnot -- is that juvenile too, or only if it's candy you don't like?

Many adults own video game consoles, drive ridiculous sports cars, date/marry people far younger than themselves, act like bullies or brats -- in short, there are far more things some adults do out there that deserve the epithet "juvenile" far more than reading a youth-oriented book.

In shorter, lighten up.
Intangelon
10-12-2006, 17:06
I can't remember who said it, or whether I'm paraphrasing for the situation, but I seem to remember this quote from somewhere:

"Only a false faith is threatened by insecurity."

That seems to apply to all this boogeyman Satan-searching that some paranoid Christians seem to enjoy.

There are sects of Christians out there who do weirder things than Harry Potter ever has. Speaking in tongues, snake-handling, polygamy, forced marriages at appallingly young ages, taking entire portions of the Bible literally while ignoring others, and so on.
Kryozerkia
10-12-2006, 17:06
No shit, should Macbeth be banned because Macbeth fulfills a prophecy given by the weird sisters?
Anyone of the Brothers Grimm stories too...
The Vuhifellian States
10-12-2006, 17:58
Well...

They're both fictional. If that counts towards anything.
Bookislvakia
10-12-2006, 18:01
Meh, they're a good read, why call them juvenile? They have some good messages in them too, on occasion. Not that they don't have some rather stupid messages too, but the books are harmless, good reads, and hey, if you can get an 8 year old nowadays to read at all, how can that be bad?
Greater Valia
10-12-2006, 18:06
Meh, they're a good read, why call them juvenile? They have some good messages in them too, on occasion. Not that they don't have some rather stupid messages too, but the books are harmless, good reads, and hey, if you can get an 8 year old nowadays to read at all, how can that be bad?

They're childrens books, and nothing is wrong with them being read by children. But why would an adult read a childrens book? And even worse, try to say its great literature? I never said anywhere that children shouldn't read them, or read at all. I just think its silly that alot of Harry Potter fans are over 20.
Bookislvakia
10-12-2006, 18:09
They're childrens books, and nothing is wrong with them being read by children. But why would an adult read a childrens book? And even worse, try to say its great literature? I never said anywhere that children shouldn't read them, or read at all. I just think its silly that alot of Harry Potter fans are over 20.

Well, shouldn't that indicate what good books they are? I wouldn't say they're great literature, but that doesn't stop them from being a good read.

Your reasoning, pardon me if you find this insulting, is like saying that only children should read Ender's Game because it's about kids. A good story can still have children, or be directed at them.
Ashmoria
10-12-2006, 18:21
They're childrens books, and nothing is wrong with them being read by children. But why would an adult read a childrens book? And even worse, try to say its great literature? I never said anywhere that children shouldn't read them, or read at all. I just think its silly that alot of Harry Potter fans are over 20.

what a silly notion

im 49 and i enjoy harry potter. i like quite a few children's authors. my most recently read series is "uglies", "pretties", and "specials" by scott westerfeld. a well written children's book is a good read for anyone.
Wallonochia
10-12-2006, 18:27
Opinion poll =/= a poster saying "All Muslims believe this because the ones on my block say they do!"

Here are the exact words she used.

Neither do I. I know that quite a few Muslims are opposed to it
Intangelon
10-12-2006, 18:28
They're childrens books, and nothing is wrong with them being read by children. But why would an adult read a childrens book? And even worse, try to say its great literature? I never said anywhere that children shouldn't read them, or read at all. I just think its silly that alot of Harry Potter fans are over 20.

Why should an adult eat candy or eat at McDonald's? Jeez, pal, lighten up.
Arinola
10-12-2006, 18:44
They're childrens books, and nothing is wrong with them being read by children. But why would an adult read a childrens book? And even worse, try to say its great literature? I never said anywhere that children shouldn't read them, or read at all. I just think its silly that alot of Harry Potter fans are over 20.

Books can be aimed at more than one age group.Sure,it's not great literature,but they are a fun read for a lot of people.If people over 20 can enjoy the books,then good for them.I don't think it's a matter of age,it's a matter of whether you like J.K. Rowling's writing.Reading is meant to be a way of exploring you're own imagination-who says adults can't have an imagination?
Grealokh
10-12-2006, 19:01
:rolleyes: IF HARRY POTTER IS 'SATANIC' THE LORD OF THE RINGS IS 'JUNK THAT CHILDREN SHOULDN'T READ', AND THE CHRONICLES OF NARNIA ARE 'DISOBEYING GOD'S WILL BECAUSE GOD DIDN'T WANT ANIMALS TO TALK'.
Damor
10-12-2006, 20:01
Problem is none of that is acual witchcraft walking around with a stick and yelling garggled versions of words in other lanagauges wont acomplish anything.It might accomplish getting people to look at you funny.
Anything magical is probably too much to ask for though.

I just think its silly that alot of Harry Potter fans are over 20.If you're too old to be silly, you might as well be dead.
Moosle
10-12-2006, 20:21
i dont really understand the fuss.

childrens literature is full of witches, fairies, goblins, ogres, all sorts of non-christian ideas.

no one protests snow white because she is attacked by the witch-queen.

There are two reasons why the fundamental christians attack Harry Potter and not Snow White, Macbeth, etc even though the latter contain references to witchcraft.

1. In Snow White et al, witchcraft is not glorified. It is not shown in a positive light. The witches are either the 'bad guys' or freaks.

2. Harry Potter is a role-model, a hero figure. This plays of off reason (1). Kids want to be the hero when they role-play, thus they will mimic Harry.

Witchcraft is sin, according to Christian theology. Hence the Salem witch trials. Perhaps to provide an analogy, you can think of your kids pretending to be a murderer. A kid pretending to be a wizard/ witch has the same sort of connotation in a fundamentalist Christian mind.
Ashmoria
10-12-2006, 20:55
There are two reasons why the fundamental christians attack Harry Potter and not Snow White, Macbeth, etc even though the latter contain references to witchcraft.

1. In Snow White et al, witchcraft is not glorified. It is not shown in a positive light. The witches are either the 'bad guys' or freaks.

2. Harry Potter is a role-model, a hero figure. This plays of off reason (1). Kids want to be the hero when they role-play, thus they will mimic Harry.

Witchcraft is sin, according to Christian theology. Hence the Salem witch trials. Perhaps to provide an analogy, you can think of your kids pretending to be a murderer. A kid pretending to be a wizard/ witch has the same sort of connotation in a fundamentalist Christian mind.

they attack harry potter because the books are very popular and they are idiots.

there are plenty of good witches and other supernatural beings. the good witch glenda from the wizard of oz springs to mind, the last fairy godmother of sleeping beauty, im sure i can come up with more.

the vast majority of us were brought up with stories of witches and magic and the vast majority of us put that behind us when we grew up. it did no affect our belief system in the least.

i grew up in the days when kids played cowboys and indians. someone always played the bad guy. it was part of being a kid.
Moosle
11-12-2006, 03:01
they attack harry potter because the books are very popular and they are idiots.

I was specifically addressing the two examples brought up, and why they didn't fit. Your examples are good-- nice job at coming up with some "good" witchcraft. However, neither can really be considered main characters. Also, I do think fundamentalists might make a distinction between a fairy godmother, and a witch. The former uses magic, yes, but it is not labeled a witch, and the idea of a godmother is something of a protector. It also is distinctly 'unreal' or ficticious. HP has the added 'danger' to fundamentalists precisely because it is so possible-- it is set in the real world, with ordinary kids that the people reading can relate to. They can easily relate it to their own life.

As for the rest, those are simply the reasons why HP is labeled evil, which is what the OP asked for; whether or not they are stupid is something else entirely.

These people 100% believe in their beliefs. Just because we can not fathom that sort of certainty does not mean that they are idiots. If you believed with the utmost certainty that if you let your kid go to school on Dec 11, 2006 he would be shot and killed, would you let your kid go? It's a matter of parents protecting their children from what they perceive as harmful.

That's not to say I haven't convinced a group of fundamental homeschooling mom's that HP was perfectly harmless. You need to argue within their framework of beliefs, rather than from your point of view. Just as you don't understand where they are coming from, they will have no clue where you are at.


You do bring up an excellent point: The HP books are extremely popular. This is another reason for the strong backlash from the religious right. Because HP is quite pervasive in our society it means that they and their kids will be presented with the material a lot more often than if the book was not popular. That is certainly another reason for targeting HP over some less well known works-- or even works which are past their heyday.
Katganistan
11-12-2006, 03:11
Neither do I. I know that quite a few Muslims are opposed to it, however and so are many Christians. I just want to know why, since these people never seem to give you an actual reason or anything vaguely resembling evidence.
I'm open to persuasion to the idea that it might be corrupting the minds of children and whatnot, but I remain entirely unconvined so far.

source?

:confused: I hear my friends and neighbours talking about it. If you want me to tape record them for you, I'm not going to.

At what point did I say they all do? I'm a Muslim and I vertainly don't. Please read more carefully before criticizing.

*shrug* So your friends and neighbors = quite a few.... as opposed to what?
You're the one holding forth your anecdote as reliable evidence. You're using a tiny sample to say that "many oppose it" which is certainly hyperbole... I use hyperbole as well and you're all up in arms. Why?

Because it's inaccurate, per chance?
Moosle
11-12-2006, 03:15
*shrug* So your friends and neighbors = quite a few.... as opposed to what?
You're the one holding forth your anecdote as reliable evidence.

I think the point was that there are some Muslims-- and not just Christians-- that also view HP as evil.

I don't believe s/he ever said all Muslims believed this.

And if you object to the 'quite a few' well, if s/he found many in her/ his community opposed to HP, than that supports that specific claim.
Commonalitarianism
11-12-2006, 03:19
Harry Potter is a giant cheap trick. He really doesn't ever succeed on his own. It is always a magical trick out of the bag at the last moment and never his own doing. Look the xsnorgle sword suddenly comes out of the hat so I can kill the basilisk. Look we are a hundred points behind, but if I stick this little ball on my wanker I will win 10,000 points and win the day. Most of it is bad cheap tricks and wish fulfillment. Not enough struggle. Not enough character development. The magic car saves him at the last minute from the giant spiders, vroom vroom he is gone. It teaches nothing about effort. There is just too much luck.

The magic of luck rarely happens in the real world. It is like someone who buys lottery tickets and wins every time because he is "magical". This can be a dangerous form of thinking. It encourages a certain level of stupidity and gullibility.
Katganistan
11-12-2006, 03:42
I think the point was that there are some Muslims-- and not just Christians-- that also view HP as evil.

I don't believe s/he ever said all Muslims believed this.

And if you object to the 'quite a few' well, if s/he found many in her/ his community opposed to HP, than that supports that specific claim.

So -- we can extrapolate that because a few of his friends and neighbors are opposed to Harry Potter, that means that "quite a few" Muslims are opposed to Harry Potter?

If I ask a classroom of students if they like sauerbraten, and they all say no, can we then extrapolate that all students dislike saeurbraten?
Moosle
11-12-2006, 03:57
So -- we can extrapolate that because a few of his friends and neighbors are opposed to Harry Potter, that means that "quite a few" Muslims are opposed to Harry Potter?

Yes. More than a few. A few being defined as a small amount. There is more than a few within his personal acquaintaince, and from that you may extrapolate that there are probably some Muslims outside of his acquaintance that share the same beliefs.

If I ask a classroom of students if they like sauerbraten, and they all say no, can we then extrapolate that all students dislike saeurbraten?

That is exactly the sort of statement he is not making. He never said all Muslims are opposed to HP.
Katganistan
11-12-2006, 04:06
Yes. More than a few. A few being defined as a small amount. There is more than a few within his personal acquaintaince, and from that you may extrapolate that there are probably some Muslims outside of his acquaintance that share the same beliefs.

I

That is exactly the sort of statement he is not making. He never said all Muslims are opposed to HP.

No.

He said that because his friends and neighbors dislike it, that "quite a few Muslims" dislike it.

This is the same as saying that because I ask ONE class of students if they dislike something, if all say yes, then we can extrapolate ALL students dislike it, if we're using the same mode of logic above.

If you're not understanding what you're objecting to....
Jack of Diamondz
11-12-2006, 04:13
Harry Potter is not evil. He may be overrated, he may be whiny, he may have foresight that implies early senility, but he is not evil. Its just a childrens book, I dont see why anyone could so vehemently oppose it. If parents dont want the children to read it, just dont buy it for them.
Moosle
11-12-2006, 04:20
No.

He said that because his friends and neighbors dislike it, that "quite a few Muslims" dislike it.

This is the same as saying that because I ask ONE class of students if they dislike something, if all say yes, then we can extrapolate ALL students dislike it, if we're using the same mode of logic above.

If you're not understanding what you're objecting to....

I can't believe we're actually arguing over this. :fluffle:

Honestly, though, I do have a difficulty with your analogy. "All" and "quite a few" are two completely different statements. The former is absolute, the latter implies a percentage, but not even necessarily a majority.

Also, it is not logical to assume that his Muslim friends/ neighbors contain beliefs that are not held by any other Muslim on earth.

If I see 10 red birds in the park, it is logical to assume that I will find a red bird outside of the park as well.
Hiemria
11-12-2006, 04:25
There arn't any christians (at least that I know of) that think Harry Potter is satan, they are just against him because he promotes witch craft.

Really, I don't know anyone who thinks Harry Potter is contrary to Christianity because it presents witchcraft. Obviously in that world witchcraft is not evil.

What I have a problem with is the morality of the 'hero' characters who are OK people but not very good people. Certainly better than the villians but the main characters that children identify with have a lot of moral ambiguity going on.

Also, I find the book vaugely prejudiced. Basically all but 1 character is either good or evil depending on the good or evil of his parents. Although the book presents considering 'mudbloods' as lesser people as wrong, every character who has evil parents (except 1) ends up being evil. It's also suggested that it is just the nature of children of bad/good parents to be bad/good themselves. For example, Harry Potter never met his parents but he is good in the same way that they were.



Unless the entire series turns out to be a schizophrenic delusion of Harry Potter I am probably going to be dissapointed by the ending book though. That ending would make oh so much sense.
Katganistan
11-12-2006, 04:33
what a silly notion

im 49 and i enjoy harry potter. i like quite a few children's authors. my most recently read series is "uglies", "pretties", and "specials" by scott westerfeld. a well written children's book is a good read for anyone.

You'd be amazed by how many English teachers in my school read HP.... :) I know of at least six....
Commonalitarianism
11-12-2006, 04:40
J.K. Rowling is a top notch wanker. The statements about good and evil are pretty much true. Also the wonderful lack of anything but nice "english" schoolchildren. This is after all a nice British film for those who like British films. J.K. Rowling specifically stated that this film would only have British citizens for its main characters. I guess British citizens aren't muggles. The rest of the world must be "muggles". I also am not sure about the plagiarism suit as well for her first book.
Akai Oni
11-12-2006, 04:48
Harry Potter is a giant cheap trick. He really doesn't ever succeed on his own. It is always a magical trick out of the bag at the last moment and never his own doing. Look the xsnorgle sword suddenly comes out of the hat so I can kill the basilisk. Look we are a hundred points behind, but if I stick this little ball on my wanker I will win 10,000 points and win the day. Most of it is bad cheap tricks and wish fulfillment. Not enough struggle. Not enough character development. The magic car saves him at the last minute from the giant spiders, vroom vroom he is gone. It teaches nothing about effort. There is just too much luck.

The magic of luck rarely happens in the real world. It is like someone who buys lottery tickets and wins every time because he is "magical". This can be a dangerous form of thinking. It encourages a certain level of stupidity and gullibility.

In Philosopher's Stone, Harry and his friends work hard to find out who Nicolas Flamel is. They eventually succeed in stopping Quirrel from getting the Stone. The value of determination is also taught in this book. In Chamber of Secrets, the 3 of them work hard once more to figure out where the voice is coming from. They also work hard to help their friends. In Prisoner of Azkaban, the three friends work hard to help Hagrid save Buckbeak. In Goblet of Fire, hard work is mostly what gets Harry through. Throughout most of Order of the Phoenix the value of hard work is exemplified whilst they are studying for their examinations, and through the depiction of the DA. Hard work is again exemplified in the Half Blood Prince, when Harry must discover a way to extract the memory from Professor Slughorn. It is also demonstrated through Draco's success with the Vanishing Cabinet through hard work. The books also teach the value of teamwork as well. They demonstrate quite clearly the value of hard work and teamwork. However, since luck is a huge part of life, luck is clearly present in the books.
Moosle
11-12-2006, 04:51
I also am not sure about the plagiarism suit as well for her first book.

If the plagiarism suit was about Lord of the Rings, then that was all baloney. JK Rowlings hadn't even read the LotR until after she was accused of plagiarism.
CiPearl
11-12-2006, 04:52
They're childrens books, and nothing is wrong with them being read by children. But why would an adult read a childrens book? And even worse, try to say its great literature? I never said anywhere that children shouldn't read them, or read at all. I just think its silly that alot of Harry Potter fans are over 20.
A lot of the people in their young 20s who read the book probably started reading them when they were 16 or so, and are just trying to figure out how they end. I personally find them to be amazing books and have read them all again and again. Some critics complained that in the 5th book Harry was a brat and acted really immature. Hello? He was acting like a teenager. We all act like brats every now and then.
Hebubsa
11-12-2006, 04:54
hmmmm

satan is evil personified

money is the root of all evil

harry potter has made several boat loads of money...

well so does the catholic church haha... lets not even begin to talk about money when it comes to that...
Yaltabaoth
11-12-2006, 04:54
Its simaler to the argument that D&D is stanic and I have been playing since I was 8 and I have yet to sacrifice any babys or kill my parents./QUOTE]

Shit! Which version of the books did you get? Mine all explicitly included instructions to kill my parents.
In fact the only reason it took me so long to actually KILL my parents was the conflicting opinions/advice on which form of ritualised sacrifice to make.
Then there's the raw baby eating - how mant recipes can there be? They're raw!
Thanks a lot Gary! Asshole...

Although, as Cain and Abel demonstrate, God loves a blood sacrifice!

[QUOTE=Catch-All Explanations;12064043]In that case, no opinion poll could ever be classified as reliable.

Sorry, which side of the point are you arguing?
No opinion poll is EVER 'reliable'!

I doubt the Harry Potter books glorify satan. I'm more inclined to believe that the Old and New Testaments (or whatever the hell you want to call those "holy" pieces of God-sanctioned crap) glorify satan more than a fictitious work of literature ever could.

Take Job for example - the poor bastard goes through all that suffering just because God has to prove to Satan that he's cooler...
Akai Oni
11-12-2006, 04:55
Really, I don't know anyone who thinks Harry Potter is contrary to Christianity because it presents witchcraft. Obviously in that world witchcraft is not evil.

What I have a problem with is the morality of the 'hero' characters who are OK people but not very good people. Certainly better than the villians but the main characters that children identify with have a lot of moral ambiguity going on.

Also, I find the book vaugely prejudiced. Basically all but 1 character is either good or evil depending on the good or evil of his parents. Although the book presents considering 'mudbloods' as lesser people as wrong, every character who has evil parents (except 1) ends up being evil. It's also suggested that it is just the nature of children of bad/good parents to be bad/good themselves. For example, Harry Potter never met his parents but he is good in the same way that they were.



Unless the entire series turns out to be a schizophrenic delusion of Harry Potter I am probably going to be dissapointed by the ending book though. That ending would make oh so much sense.

Actually there are a few examples of characters who do not fit the good/evil mould. For instance, it's not only Sirius out of the Black clan who was blasted off the tapestry. Barty Crouch Junior turned out a different kind of evil than his parents. We do not know enough about Snape's parents to make an assumption either way. Peter Pettigrew's parents are also an unknown entity.

What the books suggest to me is that children are incredibly influenced by their parents' beliefs. Note in Order of the Phoenix when Seamus' mother did not want him returning to Hogwarts. Note the reaction of many of the students due to their parents influence.
Kyronea
11-12-2006, 06:08
Is there anyone out there who actually believes that Harry Potter is in any way Satanic or evil? If so, why?

Harry Potter is the Star Wars of literature, in that it's okay for what it is, but it's hardly fantastic and the sheer amount of cultural support for it is absolutely absurd.
Moosle
11-12-2006, 06:14
Harry Potter is the Star Wars of literature, in that it's okay for what it is, but it's hardly fantastic and the sheer amount of cultural support for it is absolutely absurd.

::blink:: Was that a diss of Star Wars? Arm thyself!
Kyronea
11-12-2006, 06:20
::blink:: Was that a diss of Star Wars? Arm thyself!

...

Surely you can't possibly believe that Star Wars is some kind of supreme quality masterpiece. It's a nice piece of fiction that I might occasionally enjoy, but there's a lot better science fiction out there. Hell, even Star Trek is better than Star Wars in that regard. (Though certainly not THAT much better, writing quality wise.)
Moosle
11-12-2006, 06:27
...

Surely you can't possibly believe that Star Wars is some kind of supreme quality masterpiece. It's a nice piece of fiction that I might occasionally enjoy, but there's a lot better science fiction out there. Hell, even Star Trek is better than Star Wars in that regard. (Though certainly not THAT much better, writing quality wise.)

I'm not a humongous fan of Star Wars, but I do think it was ground-breaking and has a great story-line. Specifically speaking of the older three-- not as big of a fan of the newer ones.

Star Trek? I suppose it's good for more 'realisitic' science fiction, if you can call it that. I am more of a fantasy fan myself, which is why I think I gravitate towards Star Wars. It has more of that mythological quality and feel to it. It has a sense of depth-- background.

As far as Sci-fi goes, you can't beat Asimov. I particularly like Ender's Game and Herbert's Dune, too.
Ri-an
11-12-2006, 06:45
Having read all six books, I don't think Harry potter himself promotes the devil. Instead, I think Harry is more of a white wizard, you know, the kind that goes around helping people.

Voldemort and his lackeys on the otherhand, I feel they promote dark evil satanic magic, though certainly you don't need me to explain why.
Poliwanacraca
11-12-2006, 06:47
They're childrens books, and nothing is wrong with them being read by children. But why would an adult read a childrens book? And even worse, try to say its great literature? I never said anywhere that children shouldn't read them, or read at all. I just think its silly that alot of Harry Potter fans are over 20.

Well, then I guess I'm silly. I think the Harry Potter books are, while not "great literature," certainly fairly entertaining reads. I also very much enjoyed Garth Nix's Sabriel trilogy and Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy, both of which are generally shelved as juvenile literature. Further, I periodically reread my old copies of Cooper's The Dark is Rising sequence, The Chronicles of Narnia, and The Hobbit, all of which are darn good children's books. Good books cross genre boundaries. I don't refuse to read good sci-fi, good historical fiction, or good mysteries - why the heck would I deprive myself of good kidlit?
Moosle
11-12-2006, 06:51
Poliwanacraca, have you read the Eragon books yet? Sounds like you would like them.
Arthais101
11-12-2006, 06:54
rest of the world must be "muggles". I also am not sure about the plagiarism suit as well for her first book.

In goblet of fire one of the visiting wizards was I believe bulgarian and there has been specific references to a school in America.
Poliwanacraca
11-12-2006, 06:55
Poliwanacraca, have you read the Eragon books yet? Sounds like you would like them.

I haven't read them, but they're on my long, long list of books I need to pick up at some point. :)
Risottia
11-12-2006, 13:43
Is there anyone out there who actually believes that Harry Potter is in any way Satanic or evil? If so, why?

Oh yes. HP books do teach to do real magic. I tried Avada Kedavra last night on Pinochet. IT WORKED!:D
Risottia
11-12-2006, 13:49
We do not know enough about Snape's parents to make an assumption either way.

No, there are hints about Snape's parents in The Half-Blood Prince. Looks like Snape's father didn't like having a witch spouse. Whoa, again, half-bloods make the best wizards...

Anyway, I'm waiting for an hero's death for Snape. I know it will happen. He's too cool to be just a baddie.
Ifreann
11-12-2006, 13:58
I haven't read them, but they're on my long, long list of books I need to pick up at some point. :)

They're pretty good, despite striking similarities to star wars. For those who've read it:
A boy of foggy origins lives with his uncle in a remote place of a vast empire headed by an evil Emperor and his right hand man, who was once prominent in an ancient order of guardians with mystical powers.

Through fate or luck, depending on your point of view, this boy comes into the possession of an object vital to a rebellion against the Empire; this object was inadvertently sent to him by a princess in the rebellion, who had attempted to send said object to an old man who once belonged to the same order of guardians as the Emperor’s right-hand man.

This boy seeks the old man to learn of the ways of this ancient order, but eventually has to return to his uncle’s farm, which, the boy finds, has been destroyed by fire, and his uncle killed. The boy then sets off with the old hermit, who also gives him a sword which belonged to his father. As they travel, they train. The boy meets up with a rogue who is full of surprises, but turns out to be fiercely loyal, for all his proclaimed selfishness. The boy also begins "seeing" a beautiful woman imprisoned and in need of help.

The boy decides that he needs to rescue her, even though he doesn't know her; further, he thinks of her only as beautiful (Luke's first words are, "Who is she? She's beautiful?" Eragon can't stop thinking about her beauty). Long story short, the old hermit dies to protect the boy, the boy and the rogue help the beautiful damsel escape.

They then set off to the rebellion to give important information and return the object which the princess had sent the boy. They were followed by the Empire, and prepare for a giant battle that will either save the rebellion or annihilate them.

The boy proves his worth with heroics during the battle, but his crowning achievement is his destruction of a noun of much power that has the ability to destroy lots of things. The boy is aided in this by one of his friends, who arrives at precisely the right moment.
The boy is lauded a hero.

The boy has a hallucination of a powerful master who can teach him more of the ancient order. The boy travels to the powerful master to learn the ways of the ancient order's mystical power. While there, he grows very powerful. While he is away, the Rebellion regroups in a new area.

Just when the boy is on a roll with his training, and has grown very powerful, he has a vision of his friends in great danger. He decides he must go to help them. His master warns him not to go. The boy promises that he will return. He leaves.

He finds his friends just in time and is able to distract the enemy so that his friends will remain safe. He finds out that his father was the right-hand man of the Emperor--his father was the one who betrayed the ancient order and helped kill them.

The boy is shocked and ultimately defeated, but not killed. He finds out that someone dear to him has been taken by evil people, and promises to find this person.

Now, is that the plot of Inheritance, or StarWars?
Akai Oni
11-12-2006, 14:02
No, there are hints about Snape's parents in The Half-Blood Prince. Looks like Snape's father didn't like having a witch spouse. Whoa, again, half-bloods make the best wizards...

Anyway, I'm waiting for an hero's death for Snape. I know it will happen. He's too cool to be just a baddie.

That's true, but I was referring to the poster who claimed that all the evil characters had evil parents.

We do not know if Snape's parents were evil. And the likelihood that he was half-blood is very slim, given that he was a Death-Eater (pure-bloods only) and in Slytherin house.
Risottia
11-12-2006, 14:11
We do not know if Snape's parents were evil. And the likelihood that he was half-blood is very slim, given that he was a Death-Eater (pure-bloods only) and in Slytherin house.

I don't know... Voldemort himself is an half-blood and he was in Slytherin - so no pure-bloods-only. Ok, he's heir to Slytherin, but half-blood nevertheless.
Slytherin is the house of the ambitious people, more than of pure-bloods.
Anyway, I think that that bit hinted at what an unhappy kid Severus was, just like Harry Potter and Tom Riddle. I think that Snape's mother wasn't quite happy with her husband.
Babelistan
11-12-2006, 14:18
the fact that harry potter got branded satanic almost got me interested in it.
close but no cigar.
Medical Oddities
11-12-2006, 14:42
Is there anyone out there who actually believes that Harry Potter is in any way Satanic or evil? If so, why?


This is probably the silliest question I´ve ever read. Pointless to say the least.
Is this worth starting a topic at all..? :confused:
Muravyets
11-12-2006, 16:12
They're childrens books, and nothing is wrong with them being read by children. But why would an adult read a childrens book? And even worse, try to say its great literature? I never said anywhere that children shouldn't read them, or read at all. I just think its silly that alot of Harry Potter fans are over 20.
Yeah, books about children that are read by children are not worth an adult's time -- books like Tom Sawyer, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, Alice in Wonderland/Through the Looking Glass, Kim, The Call of the Wild, Oliver Twist, Great Expectations, Treasure Island, The Yearling ...

I don't think Harry Potter is on the level of literary artistry of those books, but still, generalizations are like quicksand -- they'll just suck your argument right down, if you're not careful.
UpwardThrust
11-12-2006, 16:17
In that case, no opinion poll could ever be classified as reliable.

Yes it can, unlike your anecdotal evidence they have a few KEY things we like to use in statistics

Randomized selection
Large sample sizes

To name two
UpwardThrust
11-12-2006, 16:21
I can't believe we're actually arguing over this. :fluffle:

Honestly, though, I do have a difficulty with your analogy. "All" and "quite a few" are two completely different statements. The former is absolute, the latter implies a percentage, but not even necessarily a majority.

Also, it is not logical to assume that his Muslim friends/ neighbors contain beliefs that are not held by any other Muslim on earth.

If I see 10 red birds in the park, it is logical to assume that I will find a red bird outside of the park as well.
In either case all or quite a few his sample size is much too small and is not varied in sampling enough to even reliably justify "quite a few"
Muravyets
11-12-2006, 16:22
There are two reasons why the fundamental christians attack Harry Potter and not Snow White, Macbeth, etc even though the latter contain references to witchcraft.

1. In Snow White et al, witchcraft is not glorified. It is not shown in a positive light. The witches are either the 'bad guys' or freaks.

2. Harry Potter is a role-model, a hero figure. This plays of off reason (1). Kids want to be the hero when they role-play, thus they will mimic Harry.

Witchcraft is sin, according to Christian theology. Hence the Salem witch trials. Perhaps to provide an analogy, you can think of your kids pretending to be a murderer. A kid pretending to be a wizard/ witch has the same sort of connotation in a fundamentalist Christian mind.
Actually, Shakespeare frequently turns up on lists of banned books or books people try to get banned (from their schools, local libraries, etc). So do the Bros. Grimm and Hans Christian Anderson. "Reasons" for wanting to ban such stories vary wildly, of course, but one of the commonly cited reasons is content that is considered "occult," which term is expanded to include "demonic," "satanic," "evil," and even, from a blessedly few extremists, "anti-Christian."

Bottom line, I guess, is that some individuals think Harry Potter is satanic for reasons of their own. They are so few in number that they cannot be considered representative of any broader religious group, but they yelp and jump about so much and so loudly, that people think there's more to them than there really is. Think of it this way: There are people in the world who think their toasters are sending them messages from beyond... Put the issue into perspective.
Eve Online
11-12-2006, 16:24
I think Muravyets is Satanic, and proud of it :D
Kryozerkia
11-12-2006, 16:24
Take Job for example - the poor bastard goes through all that suffering just because God has to prove to Satan that he's cooler...
Exactly. Excellent point.
Muravyets
11-12-2006, 16:26
I think Muravyets is Satanic, and proud of it :D

YEAH, BEYOTCH! QUEEN OF DARKNESS FTW! Kiss my ring, peasant. :D
Katganistan
12-12-2006, 02:16
YEAH, BEYOTCH! QUEEN OF DARKNESS FTW! Kiss my ring, peasant. :D

*kills Muravyets*
*resurrects Muravyets*

Any questions? ;)
Ri-an
12-12-2006, 02:30
*kills Muravyets*
*resurrects Muravyets*

Any questions? ;)

Yes. why did you just kill and ressurect him?

You forgot to torture him and make him suffer in successivly crueler and more inhumane manners until it reached the point that he had absolutly no mind left nor anything resembling a functioning body, yet was still alive, and unable to do anything about, thus resulting in the cruelest and most inhumane torture of all, eternity of pain and suffering without the blessed glorious release of final death.

But that's just me and my twisted imagination