NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6220122.stm

Are the gentle giants in danger of extinction?

I had no idea gorillas has become a threatened species. :(

Gorillas were under threat long before the label was given to them, I know for the last twenty years Gorillas have been teetering.

I heard the Ebola story on NPR, and a brief interveiw with a gentleman about it.

Its sad, while I wont call them gentle giants, they are animals and have no understanding of what is happening on any real level other then knowing they are in pain and death is coming. Not to over personify them, but they are essentially innnocent. Very sad indeed. i am certain this is some how the fault of man's encroachment.

Gorillas are aware of themselves as...an entity like we are. Put a mirror in front of an Ape or Bonobo and he will recognize himself. Most animals don't have that brain function level. I expect they relize their families are dying, and then they are dying. THis is really more awful than you guys prolly get. THey are one of the three or four closest relatives we have, and this splurge migt get them. We'll still have chimps and orangs and the GIbbons, but they're all on the edge too. We've been too successful a species. truly, truly a tragedy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6220122.stm

Are the gentle giants in danger of extinction?

I hopped over to Wikipedia to read some more about this disease and came across this disturbing tidbit:

Ebola is classified as a Category A Biological terrorism agent by the CDC as well as being considered a select agent that has the "potential to pose a severe threat to public health and safety". Ebola was considered in biological warfare research at both Fort Detrick[17] in the United States and Biopreparat[18] in the Soviet Union during the Cold War.

Ebola shows potential as a biological weapon because of its lethality but due to its relatively short incubation period it may be more difficult to spread since it may kill its victim before it has a chance to be transmitted. As a result, some developers have considered breeding it with other agents such as smallpox[19] to create so-called chimera viruses. The Soviet biological weaponry program reportedly succeeded in mixing Ebola with smallpox[20] and the Venezuelan equine encephalitis virus.[21]

As a terrorist weapon, Ebola has been considered by members of Japan's Aum Shinrikyo cult, whose leader, Shoko Asahara led about 40 members to Zaire in 1992 under the guise of offering medical aid to Ebola victims in what was presumably an attempt to acquire a sample of the virus.[22]

I am not saying I am any more sensitive to the plight of the animal(like you did) I am saying clearly---you dont know me, dont presume to know how I feel, what I think, or what I know.

Everyone knows the Great apes are our relatives and that Gorillas are capable of quite high brain function but as I said they dont understand this, you can not explain diesease vectors and the workings of a virus to a gorilla--they just know death is coming. If we could explain thingsto them then we could explain prevention, and isolation so they could limit their own exposure...there is that clear enough for "they dont understand what is happening".

And dont write them off yet, nature has a way of out smarting the damage we do more often then not.

You dont remember the Ebola scare of the late 80s and early 90s when it had ripped through Africa(kiling hundreds officially) and everyone was afraid it was going to make it here...(to the USA). Well it did make it here but no one developed full blown Ebola.

You dont remember the Ebola scare of the late 80s and early 90s when it had ripped through Africa(kiling hundreds officially) and everyone was afraid it was going to make it here...(to the USA). Well it did make it here but no one developed full blown Ebola.

To whom were you addressing?

To whom were you addressing?

That was you.

That was you.

Oh. I'm not afraid of Ebola spreading to America, but what distrubed me was the bit about Soviet scientists purportedly breeding it with other highly contagious diseases (that are horrific in their own right). See my edited post for clarification.

Well yeah that is scary...but the disease can be contained because it becomes obvious fairly quickly, in people.

I wasnt suggesting you were afraid, I meant that htere was a general media fear ofthe Ebola virus getting on plane here and spreading like wild fire through our densely populated urban centers--it did get here, it did get exposure to people, luckily no one developed the disease to a full blown extent. It is however still quite the killer andeven without mixing the disease it could do some damage, especially if a terrorist could mount multiple vectors and place them int he hospitals quickly to infect the medical community. OUr over stretched ER system would collapse, and panic would insue.

I am not saying I am any more sensitive to the plight of the animal(like you did) I am saying clearly---you dont know me, dont presume to know how I feel, what I think, or what I know.

Everyone knows the Great apes are our relatives and that Gorillas are capable of quite high brain function but as I said they dont understand this, you can not explain diesease vectors and the workings of a virus to a gorilla--they just know death is coming. If we could explain thingsto them then we could explain prevention, and isolation so they could limit their own exposure...there is that clear enough for "they dont understand what is happening".

And dont write them off yet, nature has a way of out smarting the damage we do more often then not.

and I am telling you I have worked with them in the course of getting my masters and i think they probably do know they're dying, in much the same way the indians in America knew they were dying of somethign horrific and could do nothing about it when smallpox hit tem here. As for explaining to them the trouble with disease vectors etc etc...most HUMANS on earth today woud think you were crazy f you pulle dthat crap out. We're still mostly supersticious apes and don't believe in science.

You rpesume that we as a race are somehow smarter than we are. Yeah, sort of, but not really. And I am saying gorillas and especially chimps ARE a lot smarter than you seem to understand, and likely get it to some extent. But I don't want to start a pissing match with someone I don't know, so here: you're brilliant, I'm stupid, and I can go fuck off. Have a great night, eh?

No, you do want to start a pissing contest.
First I doubt seriously you have masters in anything but bullshit.
Next you go judging what I do and do not know of Great apes becuase I do not consider them equal of intelligence to humans? Well they are not, and of course they know they are near death--but they dont know what a fecking virus is, and comparing Native Americans to apes is about the most racist thing I have ever seen on these baords ever by anyone, baring some holocaust denial stuff.

And stop presuming to know what I know--its annoying and childish.
Masters degree indeed.

What exactly in my statement tells you what I think about the intellience of Chimps? Just quote it, you dont need to explain, just quote my comment on the intelligence of chimps. Since it seems to be all the stements I made about a chimps intelligence that have you in an uproar about how animal like native americans were.

Oh, Mr. Masters I also dont presume we as a race are smarter then we are, I presume we are smarter then Great Apes--all of them and we are.

they are animals and have no understanding of what is happening on any real level other then knowing they are in pain and death is coming

^^^
hmmm I don't remember saying this MUST HAVE BEEN YOU



I am not saying I am any more sensitive to the plight of the animal(like you did) I am saying clearly---you dont know me, dont presume to know how I feel, what I think, or what I know..

you started the whinging right here in reply to my comment that, undirected at you in particular, sated that I am not sure you guys know what a bitch this is (para)





Everyone knows the Great apes are our relatives and that Gorillas are capable of quite high brain function but as I said they dont understand this, you can not explain disease vectors and the workings of a virus to a gorilla--they just know death is coming. If we could explain thingsto them then we could explain prevention, and isolation so they could limit their own exposure...there is that clear enough for "they dont understand what is happening".
right there I would say you claim that they don't get it.

And I am indeed saying that they DO communicate on some basic level and understand that their families are dying, and that that they have something too. Now, I am sure that they do not understand what a virus is, and I compared them to the American Indians, who ALSO didn't understand what a virus is, and you spouted of that I am now being racist and mean, and you generally acted a prat. Then you decided to make fun of me in the bargain. So now I will simply state it clearly, as you seem somehat tempermental and not very...bright.

You are stupid if you think a dying animal who can use sign language, make sentences up from the blue about said sign language, including expressions of love, anger, lying, and concerning her family, doesn't know when her community and self are dying. I have not insulted YOU, INDIANS, OR GORRILLAS. but you can feck off and die.

I am not racist, have not made any racist comments, and in fact have not made any attempt to insult you up until this point right here: you are being and asshat and I have a right to my opinion, educated as it has been by the last 2 years at UCLA's Anthropology department. Thanks, and as I said, have a great night.
Sorry if you can't seem to read what was a generally friendly post as such, but that's your fault, not mine. If you refuse to accept that I don't want a pissing match, well okay, you're just welcome as hell to hold your breath, turn purple and die for all I care. But I still have a right to my somewhat educated opinion, and you have still taken NO comments at all and decided to be a prat. hmmm. not a strong enough word. Perhaps ASHHOLE would work better for you? jerkoff maybe? I am unsure how to describe soeone who takes a general comment about the intelligence of any of the higher apes and can turn it into a pissing match, but you did, so there should be some good word to describe you floating around out there. Care to take a stab yourself? maybe you'll win a prize like that big fat stuffed PURPLE INSENTIANT GORILLA THERE IN THE CORNER YOU DINGALING!

I never claimed I HAVE a masters. I said I am working at one. so again, fuck off ad die for me, okay sweetums?


whoops! I bet I get banned. And you know what? I could give a damn. At least I got to tell you what a fucktard you're being.

That's why we need Gorilla farms. Farms will ensure that gorillas won't go extinct, and will provide tasty meat to the locals. This will discourage the hunting of wild gorillas and the money made from selling gorilla meat can be used for conservation efforts.

In most of Africa the demand is growing for the meat of forest animals-this is known as "bushmeat". The "bushmeat" most in demand is that from Gorillas, Elephants and Chimpanzees.

Thousands of hunters earn their living from slaughtering these animals.

Some of the "notable" casualties have been the Gorillas Mushauuka, who was featured in the movie "Gorillas in The Mist" and Manheshe, who was featured on the Zaire 50E000 currency note.
Link deleted due to some gruesome images.

you are kidding right? :eek:

Aside from the fact that it will screw their gene pool up, great apes need to learn how to hunt and survive in the wild (fromtheir parents and the rest of the troop. Farms or any kind of captivity will unfortunately destroy their social skills--and that means they will die off as soon as we dump them back in the wild.
THe monkeys we breed or raise from infants today in captivity could never survive in the wild. Like us, they have to learn most of those skills, and in captivity they deteriorate too quickly.

that's beside the problem that farm raised animals tend to lose their floavor---eeeeew! bad monkey meat!:p

better we should getoff our asses and figure out what the natural breeding ground of ebola is, and try to beat that source. Not taht it would be easy mind, we have been searching for it forever. :rolleyes:

I wonder who it jumped to first?

you are kidding right? :eek:

Aside from the fact that it will screw their gene pool up, great apes need to learn how to hunt and survive in the wild (fromtheir parents and the rest of the troop. Farms or any kind of captivity will unfortunately destroy their social skills--and that means they will die off as soon as we dump them back in the wild.
THe monkeys we breed or raise from infants today in captivity could never survive in the wild. Like us, they have to learn most of those skills, and in captivity they deteriorate too quickly.

that's beside the problem that farm raised animals tend to lose their floavor---eeeeew! bad monkey meat!:p

better we should getoff our asses and figure out what the natural breeding ground of ebola is, and try to beat that source. Not taht it would be easy mind, we have been searching for it forever. :rolleyes:

Well you leave the wild populations alone. You just start farm raising a few from breeding stock taken from zoos and such. With proper factory farming techniques you can very quickly end up with a thriving farmed gorilla meat industry. Part of the proceeds from selling the farmed gorilla meat would fund conservation efforts to protect the wild ones and the whole enterprise would create jobs for people in the region.

I wonder who it jumped to first?

prolly a hunter. I believe we've been able to trace it to blood born, but there are also concerns that it may be bloodborn as well. I think the first proven case was a hunter who had a cut and...

it also causes lots of blood, as the movies are happy to show.

I just thought of another farming issue. Same thing that happens with Bird flu--it could turn into a reservior waiting to be contaminated, which would then infect all the other ape stocks, which would quickly jump to us...


I wonder if this is a new ebola. it does mutate fairly steadily I think.

not really up on the whoel thing--it's been a few years since I had medical anthro.

Well you leave the wild populations alone. You just start farm raising a few from breeding stock taken from zoos and such. With proper factory farming techniques you can very quickly end up with a thriving farmed gorilla meat industry. Part of the proceeds from selling the farmed gorilla meat would fund conservation efforts to protect the wild ones and the whole enterprise would create jobs for people in the region.

maybe. but then there is the whole "feeding em" issue. I would think you would get better food sources from already domesticated animals. But you could be right, I ain't all that up on this whole subject. They're a real bear to keep in captivity though. Zoos have hell keeping them pinned in...cause they are so smart (don't want to start another pissin contest but its true :p )

the whole bush meat thing is really just used to suppliment other meat sources. I am thinking simply helping people access better meat sources would be a simpler solution overall. I keep having images of me chasing a bonobo around a pen trying to grab him. Not this camper, thanks lol!

if ape meat is all that, i thin your idea has more merit than simply hunting wild ones down. It might even help reduce the wanton destructionof their population...

The lowland Gorilla still has a chance though EBOLA is not helping. They are about 30-50 thousand in the wild.

If they go extinct, it will be more from the activities of man.

Ha ha DCD......

that's a spit in the bucket. It's going to really mess with their gene pool even if they survive us. It really sucks lemons man. We really are looking at the total extinction of the Gorillas.

maybe. but then there is the whole "feeding em" issue. I would think you would get better food sources from already domesticated animals. But you could be right, I ain't all that up on this whole subject. They're a real bear to keep in captivity though. Zoos have hell keeping them pinned in...cause they are so smart (don't want to start another pissin contest but its true :p )

the whole bush meat thing is really just used to suppliment other meat sources. I am thinking simply helping people access better meat sources would be a simpler solution overall. I keep having images of me chasing a bonobo around a pen trying to grab him. Not this camper, thanks lol!

if ape meat is all that, i thin your idea has more merit than simply hunting wild ones down. It might even help reduce the wanton destructionof their population...
The website that I can't link to says that gorilla and chimp steaks are selling in restaurants for three times the price of beef. There is a market for the meat.

WoWzer! could it be the stringy old beef I saw while tehre? no wonder lol!

I coul dsee ape meat being tastier---long pig is supposedly nice too...

WoWzer! could it be the stringy old beef I saw while tehre? no wonder lol!

I coul dsee ape meat being tastier---long pig is supposedly nice too...

they are animals and have no understanding of what is happening on any real level other then knowing they are in pain and death is coming

^^^
hmmm I don't remember saying this MUST HAVE BEEN YOU





you started the whinging right here in reply to my comment that, undirected at you in particular, sated that I am not sure you guys know what a bitch this is (para)





right there I would say you claim that they don't get it.

And I am indeed saying that they DO communicate on some basic level and understand that their families are dying, and that that they have something too. Now, I am sure that they do not understand what a virus is, and I compared them to the American Indians, who ALSO didn't understand what a virus is, and you spouted of that I am now being racist and mean, and you generally acted a prat. Then you decided to make fun of me in the bargain. So now I will simply state it clearly, as you seem somehat tempermental and not very...bright.

You are stupid if you think a dying animal who can use sign language, make sentences up from the blue about said sign language, including expressions of love, anger, lying, and concerning her family, doesn't know when her community and self are dying. I have not insulted YOU, INDIANS, OR GORRILLAS. but you can feck off and die.

I am not racist, have not made any racist comments, and in fact have not made any attempt to insult you up until this point right here: you are being and asshat and I have a right to my opinion, educated as it has been by the last 2 years at UCLA's Anthropology department. Thanks, and as I said, have a great night.
Sorry if you can't seem to read what was a generally friendly post as such, but that's your fault, not mine. If you refuse to accept that I don't want a pissing match, well okay, you're just welcome as hell to hold your breath, turn purple and die for all I care. But I still have a right to my somewhat educated opinion, and you have still taken NO comments at all and decided to be a prat. hmmm. not a strong enough word. Perhaps ASHHOLE would work better for you? jerkoff maybe? I am unsure how to describe soeone who takes a general comment about the intelligence of any of the higher apes and can turn it into a pissing match, but you did, so there should be some good word to describe you floating around out there. Care to take a stab yourself? maybe you'll win a prize like that big fat stuffed PURPLE INSENTIANT GORILLA THERE IN THE CORNER YOU DINGALING!

I never claimed I HAVE a masters. I said I am working at one. so again, fuck off ad die for me, okay sweetums?


whoops! I bet I get banned. And you know what? I could give a damn. At least I got to tell you what a fucktard you're being.

Where in my statement, damn, I will ask AGAIN, did I say anything about Chimps. Its was a pretty clear question, and since keep accusing me of something to do with Chimps---I just want you to quote it....can you read?

Is english your first language...if it isnt I understand.

Dude, a chimp IS an ape.
Hominidae
Or did you not know that?

along with us, oranges and of course gorillas.

While they are somewhat smarter and more agile than gorillas (diet plays a big role there) they are indeed apes. Which is what we have been talking about. Or are we at apples and oranges somehow and arguing over two different issues here?

And yes, English is indeed my first languade. Look up DINFOS. I was trained as a journalist and editor there. I am typing in the dark on a black keyboard and sick of spellchicking myslef. Deal, please. I'll buy a white glowy one tommorrow.

Dude, a chimp IS an ape.
Hominidae
Or did you not know that?

along with us, oranges and of course gorillas.

While they are somewhat smarter and more agile than gorillas (diet plays a big role there) they are indeed apes. Which is what we have been talking about. Or are we at apples and oranges somehow and arguing over two different issues here?

And yes, English is indeed my first languade. Look up DINFOS. I was trained as a journalist and editor there. I am typing in the dark on a black keyboard and sick of spellchicking myslef. Deal, please. I'll buy a white glowy one tommorrow.

Wait, we're related to oranges? I guess that explains why my last two vacations were to Florida.

no no no... Oranges are from England or something and obviously not human. I think they named a town or a country after them, didn't they?
oh good lord. Oranges. Orangutans.

I wouldn't worry about Ebola, it burns itself out, kind of like those MRE matches.

Well you leave the wild populations alone. You just start farm raising a few from breeding stock taken from zoos and such. With proper factory farming techniques you can very quickly end up with a thriving farmed gorilla meat industry. Part of the proceeds from selling the farmed gorilla meat would fund conservation efforts to protect the wild ones and the whole enterprise would create jobs for people in the region.
That's a good idea. Farming could be a great way of reducing hunting. Plus it could ensure that the animals eaten wouldn't have any dangerous diseases that could be transmitted to humans.

No, you do want to start a pissing contest.
First I doubt seriously you have masters in anything but bullshit.
Next you go judging what I do and do not know of Great apes becuase I do not consider them equal of intelligence to humans? Well they are not, and of course they know they are near death--but they dont know what a fecking virus is, and comparing Native Americans to apes is about the most racist thing I have ever seen on these baords ever by anyone, baring some holocaust denial stuff.

And stop presuming to know what I know--its annoying and childish.
Masters degree indeed.

What exactly in my statement tells you what I think about the intellience of Chimps? Just quote it, you dont need to explain, just quote my comment on the intelligence of chimps. Since it seems to be all the stements I made about a chimps intelligence that have you in an uproar about how animal like native americans were.

Oh, Mr. Masters I also dont presume we as a race are smarter then we are, I presume we are smarter then Great Apes--all of them and we are.

I am still not sure where your need to be a jerk came from, but I think I see now why you think I have been claiming that you commented on chimps at least. This is in reply to my comment that the Apes --and especially chimps--are quite intelligent enough to know that they are all giong to die. That they have a sense of self unlike most other animals and that this is not just sad but a real tragedy to them as it would be to us.

Somewhere in there you decided that I was interjecting thoughts into your head which were never there. Nooooo I was simply replying, as I had been in my entire post-to the first thread. You in fact posted while I was typing and I at first had no clue why you were speaking to me. It wasn't untiil I read the whole trhead again that I realized you must be some sort of parnoic who thinks when someone says something *goes kurfluffle* why he MUST be talking to me! And I never blah blah blah there you go, thinking again.


Nothing I said was directed to you or in repsonse to you. You just chose to take my words offensively for some crazy reason, and now you seem to be demanding some sort of apology over the fact that I gave attributed words to you which you never made and I never attributed. Basically, you're a weirdo, and I will just accept that and smile and nod in as pleasant a manor as I can, while atemoting to keep the rictus of fear from my face, and any knifes or forks away from you.

There. We found a fine solution to your little existential reality. But we still haven't fixed the fact that you needlessly, and out of sheer paranoia, picked a fight with me about a comment that had nothing to do with anything you said. You, in fact, acted as I said, like an asshat, and aside from my much later tirade, are in the wrong, not me. Aren't we two happy campoers? Look everybody: we;re haaaappy:D


well, except for your baseless personal attack on my education based on my lazy typing done on a black keyboard in the dark and your inability to read. And for which I feel I must ask an apology. The rest of it I can chalk up to you being paranoid. The attack was just plain mean.

And oh yeah, you complaining that when I compared the apes ability to understand viruses to a stone age society with no afvanced medical knowledge, and which claimed that diseases were spirits, why THEN you started calling me a racist. I still don't have an apology for THAT either.

But I am sure if you take your medicine, put the rubber ball down, and attempt to read what I wrote and showed you where you went wrong, you will see that you were indeedy wrong on all accounts.